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00:00:47,990\n美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到4萬5千名海空軍以外另外他也邀請了所謂的在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員相當多的國家這一次的美日歷艦軍演\n\n4\n00:00:49,991 --> 00:00:53,334\n本席在這邊詢問每日的立建聯合軍演我們有沒有去觀察\n\n5\n00:01:20,014 --> 00:01:33,981\n有,跟委員報告,我想這個是就如委員所講的,它動用的產業的兵力在日本的自衛兵力達到3萬3千多,那美國也達到1萬2千多那另外派遣各式的艦艇達到40幾艘,然後這組戰機有達到370餘架次\n\n6\n00:01:42,264 --> 00:01:50,846\n他參演演練的科目也是相當的全程包括從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰兩棲空降、防空飛彈防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通安全確保\n\n7\n00:02:05,789 --> 00:02:06,930\n那臺灣在這場演習的角色是什麼?觀察員\n\n8\n00:02:18,944 --> 00:02:39,254\n坦白講他的科目看起來跟我們都有一點關係你說南海我們有太平島在那裡你說東海也是我們的防線之一也就是說他所關心的印太地區的和平跟穩定嚇阻武力破壞現狀事實上台灣是裡面我坦白講是主角不是配角\n\n9\n00:02:40,034 --> 00:03:07,099\n所以他這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模他邀請的是他們有簽比如說美國跟澳洲有所謂的聯合的防禦條約等等這些有派兵力另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察那我該是請教當然基於國家安全跟國家利益我尊重部長可以保密但如果能透露的話我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演\n\n10\n00:03:09,629 --> 00:03:35,697\n我想他有邀訪這個大概十幾個國家那我們並沒有被邀訪是我們沒有在邀訪國家當中是不過我想就如剛剛委員所講的其實我剛剛透露那些已經我不曉得算算是過多了但我只是強調這個他們每日協同來利用這個演習來進行一個\n\n11\n00:03:38,298 --> 00:04:03,120\n相對應因為中國一直在維持我因為你該把那個科目念完那些不管是反登陸保護島嶼等等那些科目念完你就會得到一個圖像那個圖像我們大家各自想像但我的意思是說等於臺灣在正式的邀請國家名單裡面是沒有的但是我們應該會以某種形式的方式去了解這整個軍演的過程我這樣詮釋對不對\n\n12\n00:04:05,865 --> 00:04:30,925\n可以這樣說後面我就不為難因為這些科目其實有些演習科目坦白講演習是我們平常有計劃透過演習來確認計劃是否可行再透過演習得到的數據去修正計劃再演習這是一個過程所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合的戰鬥力量\n\n13\n00:04:33,615 --> 00:05:02,231\n有的要檯面上有的不一定要檯面上但我認為台灣在第一島鏈的重要性以及我們在相關建制起來的裝備這一些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的首領或者戰場環境的管理這個部分其實要透過扎實的去做而不是紙面上的或一句話的承諾那個是沒辦法在真正面對混亂的時候沒辦法運作的\n\n14\n00:05:02,551 --> 00:05:27,107\n所以我期待顧部長這邊第一個我們當然要有但是在國際的現實環境上我們不一定要講但是我希望慢慢這一步走向清晰化其實也是一個嚇阻的方式這部分的訊息的清晰其實也是讓那些蠢動的想要發動愚蠢的侵略的人他要重新去想定他的狀態\n\n15\n00:05:28,208 --> 00:05:52,303\n可以建構一個NotToday今天可能狀況不一樣要重新他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫所以我才會在這邊常常提醒國防部在能顯露出來的訊息盟友之間的默契下應該顯露的基於國家利益可以顯露不應該顯露的也基於國家利益跟盟友互信也不顯露這個主題我最後是部長有沒有什麼需要補充的\n\n16\n00:05:52,771 --> 00:06:01,822\n我只是想要說明的就是說這樣子的一個聯合軍演他的參演的兵力跟他演練的科目就是屬於這個美國在這個\n\n17\n00:06:04,655 --> 00:06:05,095\n臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈\n\n18\n00:06:29,941 --> 00:06:53,369\n所以他的效果上對我們台灣來講是一個正向的效果我認為是非常正面的一個效果我下一個比較具體是有關狙擊手的部分部長可以先回座啦我希望這個部分能夠有所改進這個是很細節的部分但是我覺得可以做一個思考我先看第二頁\n\n19\n00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:17,627\n我們狙擊手其實在戰場上是很重要的一環訓練也要很扎實人員也要精挑細選但我們目前台灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題我希望我們經過今天的質詢能夠真的解決他第一個我們狙擊手一組狙擊手他要有一個成套的裝備\n\n20\n00:07:19,465 --> 00:07:41,472\n然後呢裝備裡面包含彈道計算器包含測距儀個人通訊機為什麼要個人通訊機狙擊手的通訊要另外的你跟他混在一般的通訊裡面的話狙擊手在狙擊的環境下其實對他是不利的還有專屬的通訊設備這叫一套成套裝備那我們現在呢狙擊手成套裝備有嗎\n\n21\n00:07:43,158 --> 00:08:00,782\n跟委員報告,狙擊手成套裝備因為狙擊手他的兵間的主要全職單位是在部校所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建了成套裝備有12項您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面那從今年\n\n22\n00:08:03,523 --> 00:08:15,008\n從今年到114年我們也陸續逐步的在撥發了部隊在今年之前是不夠的嘛是不夠的對啊因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次就是說很久以前我們就討論過這個問題後來我發現欸怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機\n\n23\n00:08:19,994 --> 00:08:48,317\n那有的有這個有的有那個變不成套嘛就好像我現在帶三個兵一個負責彈匣一個負責步槍另外一個帶著刺刀這邊開玩笑啊所以我們希望就是說在我們的國防預算有限下這個東西如果是必要你就要成套給他所以根據連期你這邊提供的就是你們希望在未來五年把它建制完成我們已經逐步作發到114年可以在整個配付完畢整個配付完畢好這第一件事情第二個\n\n24\n00:08:49,633 --> 00:08:50,414\n部長你知道平行調波\n\n25\n00:09:19,653 --> 00:09:44,563\n這個平行調波就是抓長補短嘛那這種平行調波其實會讓各單位在訓練的時候坦白講是省吃儉用我認為其他單位不知道至少在G級這一塊因為G級人沒有那麼多啦事實上可以讓他的配付量夠然後增加涉及訓練的頻率把平行調波至少不要用在G級這個部分能不能做得到\n\n26\n00:09:45,483 --> 00:10:10,342\n報告委員跟您報告具體數字我不方便講因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣當然這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發量絕對是夠的當然那我們也了解那我們的確會檢討改進有些單位可能我們的彈是夠啦對阿有單位會比較他可能作業人員沒那麼熟沒有提前做申請\n\n27\n00:10:11,423 --> 00:10:34,942\n然後讓這個在訓練的時候他們就感受到可能就不夠那當然我們這個增加社訓評估我們會做這個部分請你下去輔導特別我們從今年開始不管是我們的漢光40號採取無想定狀況ROE去中心化然後我們也實戰化訓練然後陸續那個151義南一年前會回來所以有些觀念要改我不是說現有的弟兄領導幹部班長錯而是說這個東西在變的當中\n\n28\n00:10:39,326 --> 00:10:59,192\n末梢神經還沒有到那我們當將領的將領就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去所以這個麻煩他去溝通這個佩服量要夠另外我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊的競賽相當時間了嘛有很長時間了能不能再回去參加我們會積極在爭取跟協調\n\n29\n00:11:01,055 --> 00:11:28,997\n有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去我們還要再跟他們做一個溝通協調讓我們掌握一下制度現在是美方不願意讓我們參加還是我們這邊提出的太慢我單獨再跟委員報告好這個我們大家一起合作因為這有有有事關到交流協訓的部分對這個就是現在我下面要講的我們的那個軍售配額軍售不是只有賣武器裝備訓練也是裡面一個軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額\n\n30\n00:11:32,042 --> 00:11:55,589\n我們可以來做個檢討研究一下因為坦白講狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要所以如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練的課程能夠銜接上的話他帶回來也許可以把我們的狙擊手的能力提升所以我說今天是一個很細項但是長期被忽略的部分我們退出我們離開那個國際狙擊競賽很久\n\n31\n00:11:57,910 --> 00:12:17,906\n那我們在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目我希望幫他們爭取到這個讓我們有優秀的狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來另外我們現在狙擊手的那個因為去美國受訓是可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌我最後要講就是說我們現在的狙擊手訓練場地是用戰車靶場對嗎\n\n32\n00:12:20,434 --> 00:12:40,584\n跟委員報告我們整個可以訓練狙擊手場地本島有5處那我們每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽那從南側今年特別調整到我們白河那個南側嗎對今年特別調整到這個三軍聯訓的基地我的建議你們現在就指定今年開始\n\n33\n00:12:41,464 --> 00:13:04,890\n對今年已經撤了以往我們軍手需要兩公里的範圍能撤的場地不多對又安全的考量所以常常是用戰車的場地我們現在戰車自己訓能可能都不太足了所以可能要增加他們訓練的場地用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法那我們另外瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡夜戰能力我特別要提醒部長或者我們參謀本部這裡\n\n34\n00:13:07,195 --> 00:13:26,803\n從其他國家戰場看到的經驗夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足裝備也不夠這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來我最後建議你們思考看看回到前面第一頁就是說美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手\n\n35\n00:13:27,603 --> 00:13:53,788\n第一類第二類第三類一個第一類是特勤嘛第二類是聯兵營機部營第三類是機部班等等特首特首對我們現在是分這三類這個只是建議我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手維安狙擊手它的好處是我們跟國際盟友之間的對話與會會一樣鞭制雷同接軌容易\n\n36\n00:13:54,488 --> 00:13:54,768\n王定宇\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n911\t1874\t謝謝召委麻煩部長請顧部長\n7932\t29290\t另外我待會會提到狙擊手的部分,請連七也上來一下。那個部長,先請教一下,現在美日的聯合歷劍,King's Sword 2024,這個大概是一二十年來的,這個是正牌的歷劍演習,美國跟日本,兩年一次。那今年我看它的規模比以往都大,除了動用的\n30211\t47990\t美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到4萬5千名海空軍以外另外他也邀請了所謂的在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員相當多的國家這一次的美日歷艦軍演\n49991\t53334\t本席在這邊詢問每日的立建聯合軍演我們有沒有去觀察\n80014\t93981\t有,跟委員報告,我想這個是就如委員所講的,它動用的產業的兵力在日本的自衛兵力達到3萬3千多,那美國也達到1萬2千多那另外派遣各式的艦艇達到40幾艘,然後這組戰機有達到370餘架次\n102264\t110846\t他參演演練的科目也是相當的全程包括從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰兩棲空降、防空飛彈防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通安全確保\n125789\t126930\t那臺灣在這場演習的角色是什麼?觀察員\n138944\t159254\t坦白講他的科目看起來跟我們都有一點關係你說南海我們有太平島在那裡你說東海也是我們的防線之一也就是說他所關心的印太地區的和平跟穩定嚇阻武力破壞現狀事實上台灣是裡面我坦白講是主角不是配角\n160034\t187099\t所以他這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模他邀請的是他們有簽比如說美國跟澳洲有所謂的聯合的防禦條約等等這些有派兵力另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察那我該是請教當然基於國家安全跟國家利益我尊重部長可以保密但如果能透露的話我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演\n189629\t215697\t我想他有邀訪這個大概十幾個國家那我們並沒有被邀訪是我們沒有在邀訪國家當中是不過我想就如剛剛委員所講的其實我剛剛透露那些已經我不曉得算算是過多了但我只是強調這個他們每日協同來利用這個演習來進行一個\n218298\t243120\t相對應因為中國一直在維持我因為你該把那個科目念完那些不管是反登陸保護島嶼等等那些科目念完你就會得到一個圖像那個圖像我們大家各自想像但我的意思是說等於臺灣在正式的邀請國家名單裡面是沒有的但是我們應該會以某種形式的方式去了解這整個軍演的過程我這樣詮釋對不對\n245865\t270925\t可以這樣說後面我就不為難因為這些科目其實有些演習科目坦白講演習是我們平常有計劃透過演習來確認計劃是否可行再透過演習得到的數據去修正計劃再演習這是一個過程所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合的戰鬥力量\n273615\t302231\t有的要檯面上有的不一定要檯面上但我認為台灣在第一島鏈的重要性以及我們在相關建制起來的裝備這一些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的首領或者戰場環境的管理這個部分其實要透過扎實的去做而不是紙面上的或一句話的承諾那個是沒辦法在真正面對混亂的時候沒辦法運作的\n302551\t327107\t所以我期待顧部長這邊第一個我們當然要有但是在國際的現實環境上我們不一定要講但是我希望慢慢這一步走向清晰化其實也是一個嚇阻的方式這部分的訊息的清晰其實也是讓那些蠢動的想要發動愚蠢的侵略的人他要重新去想定他的狀態\n328208\t352303\t可以建構一個Not Today今天可能狀況不一樣要重新他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫所以我才會在這邊常常提醒國防部在能顯露出來的訊息盟友之間的默契下應該顯露的基於國家利益可以顯露不應該顯露的也基於國家利益跟盟友互信也不顯露這個主題我最後是部長有沒有什麼需要補充的\n352771\t361822\t我只是想要說明的就是說這樣子的一個聯合軍演他的參演的兵力跟他演練的科目就是屬於這個美國在這個\n364655\t365095\t臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈\n389941\t413369\t所以他的效果上對我們台灣來講是一個正向的效果我認為是非常正面的一個效果我下一個比較具體是有關狙擊手的部分部長可以先回座啦我希望這個部分能夠有所改進這個是很細節的部分但是我覺得可以做一個思考我先看第二頁\n415520\t437627\t我們狙擊手其實在戰場上是很重要的一環訓練也要很扎實人員也要精挑細選但我們目前台灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題我希望我們經過今天的質詢能夠真的解決他第一個我們狙擊手一組狙擊手他要有一個成套的裝備\n439465\t461472\t然後呢裝備裡面包含彈道計算器包含測距儀個人通訊機為什麼要個人通訊機狙擊手的通訊要另外的你跟他混在一般的通訊裡面的話狙擊手在狙擊的環境下其實對他是不利的還有專屬的通訊設備這叫一套成套裝備那我們現在呢狙擊手成套裝備有嗎\n463158\t480782\t跟委員報告,狙擊手成套裝備因為狙擊手他的兵間的主要全職單位是在部校所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建了成套裝備有12項您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面那從今年\n483523\t495008\t從今年到114年我們也陸續逐步的在撥發了部隊在今年之前是不夠的嘛是不夠的對啊因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次就是說很久以前我們就討論過這個問題後來我發現欸怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機\n499994\t528317\t那有的有這個有的有那個變不成套嘛就好像我現在帶三個兵一個負責彈匣一個負責步槍另外一個帶著刺刀這邊開玩笑啊所以我們希望就是說在我們的國防預算有限下這個東西如果是必要你就要成套給他所以根據連期你這邊提供的就是你們希望在未來五年把它建制完成我們已經逐步作發到114年可以在整個配付完畢整個配付完畢好這第一件事情第二個\n529633\t530414\t部長你知道平行調波\n559653\t584563\t這個平行調波就是抓長補短嘛那這種平行調波其實會讓各單位在訓練的時候坦白講是省吃儉用我認為其他單位不知道至少在G級這一塊因為G級人沒有那麼多啦事實上可以讓他的配付量夠然後增加涉及訓練的頻率把平行調波至少不要用在G級這個部分能不能做得到\n585483\t610342\t報告委員跟您報告具體數字我不方便講因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣當然這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發量絕對是夠的當然那我們也了解那我們的確會檢討改進有些單位可能我們的彈是夠啦對阿有單位會比較他可能作業人員沒那麼熟沒有提前做申請\n611423\t634942\t然後讓這個在訓練的時候他們就感受到可能就不夠那當然我們這個增加社訓評估我們會做這個部分請你下去輔導特別我們從今年開始不管是我們的漢光40號採取無想定狀況ROE去中心化然後我們也實戰化訓練然後陸續那個151義南一年前會回來所以有些觀念要改我不是說現有的弟兄領導幹部班長錯而是說這個東西在變的當中\n639326\t659192\t末梢神經還沒有到那我們當將領的將領就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去所以這個麻煩他去溝通這個佩服量要夠另外我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊的競賽相當時間了嘛有很長時間了能不能再回去參加我們會積極在爭取跟協調\n661055\t688997\t有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去我們還要再跟他們做一個溝通協調讓我們掌握一下制度現在是美方不願意讓我們參加還是我們這邊提出的太慢我單獨再跟委員報告好 這個我們大家一起合作因為這有有有事關到交流協訓的部分對 這個就是現在我下面要講的我們的那個軍售配額軍售不是只有賣武器裝備訓練也是裡面一個軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額\n692042\t715589\t我們可以來做個檢討研究一下因為坦白講狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要所以如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練的課程能夠銜接上的話他帶回來也許可以把我們的狙擊手的能力提升所以我說今天是一個很細項但是長期被忽略的部分我們退出我們離開那個國際狙擊競賽很久\n717910\t737906\t那我們在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目我希望幫他們爭取到這個讓我們有優秀的狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來另外我們現在狙擊手的那個因為去美國受訓是可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌我最後要講就是說我們現在的狙擊手訓練場地是用戰車靶場對嗎\n740434\t760584\t跟委員報告我們整個可以訓練狙擊手場地本島有5處那我們每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽那從南側今年特別調整到我們白河那個南側嗎對 今年特別調整到這個三軍聯訓的基地我的建議你們現在就指定今年開始\n761464\t784890\t對 今年已經撤了以往我們軍手需要兩公里的範圍能撤的場地不多對又安全的考量所以常常是用戰車的場地我們現在戰車自己訓能可能都不太足了所以可能要增加他們訓練的場地用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法那我們另外瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡夜戰能力我特別要提醒部長或者我們參謀本部這裡\n787195\t806803\t從其他國家戰場看到的經驗 夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足 裝備也不夠這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來我最後建議你們思考看看 回到前面第一頁就是說美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手\n807603\t833788\t第一類 第二類 第三類一個第一類是特勤嘛第二類是聯兵營 機部營第三類是機部班等等特首 特首對 我們現在是分這三類這個只是建議我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手 維安狙擊手它的好處是我們跟國際盟友之間的對話與會會一樣鞭制雷同 接軌容易\n834488\t834768\t王定宇\n","txt":"謝謝召委麻煩部長請顧部長\n另外我待會會提到狙擊手的部分,請連七也上來一下。那個部長,先請教一下,現在美日的聯合歷劍,King's Sword 2024,這個大概是一二十年來的,這個是正牌的歷劍演習,美國跟日本,兩年一次。那今年我看它的規模比以往都大,除了動用的\n美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到4萬5千名海空軍以外另外他也邀請了所謂的在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員相當多的國家這一次的美日歷艦軍演\n本席在這邊詢問每日的立建聯合軍演我們有沒有去觀察\n有,跟委員報告,我想這個是就如委員所講的,它動用的產業的兵力在日本的自衛兵力達到3萬3千多,那美國也達到1萬2千多那另外派遣各式的艦艇達到40幾艘,然後這組戰機有達到370餘架次\n他參演演練的科目也是相當的全程包括從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰兩棲空降、防空飛彈防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通安全確保\n那臺灣在這場演習的角色是什麼?觀察員\n坦白講他的科目看起來跟我們都有一點關係你說南海我們有太平島在那裡你說東海也是我們的防線之一也就是說他所關心的印太地區的和平跟穩定嚇阻武力破壞現狀事實上台灣是裡面我坦白講是主角不是配角\n所以他這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模他邀請的是他們有簽比如說美國跟澳洲有所謂的聯合的防禦條約等等這些有派兵力另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察那我該是請教當然基於國家安全跟國家利益我尊重部長可以保密但如果能透露的話我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演\n我想他有邀訪這個大概十幾個國家那我們並沒有被邀訪是我們沒有在邀訪國家當中是不過我想就如剛剛委員所講的其實我剛剛透露那些已經我不曉得算算是過多了但我只是強調這個他們每日協同來利用這個演習來進行一個\n相對應因為中國一直在維持我因為你該把那個科目念完那些不管是反登陸保護島嶼等等那些科目念完你就會得到一個圖像那個圖像我們大家各自想像但我的意思是說等於臺灣在正式的邀請國家名單裡面是沒有的但是我們應該會以某種形式的方式去了解這整個軍演的過程我這樣詮釋對不對\n可以這樣說後面我就不為難因為這些科目其實有些演習科目坦白講演習是我們平常有計劃透過演習來確認計劃是否可行再透過演習得到的數據去修正計劃再演習這是一個過程所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合的戰鬥力量\n有的要檯面上有的不一定要檯面上但我認為台灣在第一島鏈的重要性以及我們在相關建制起來的裝備這一些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的首領或者戰場環境的管理這個部分其實要透過扎實的去做而不是紙面上的或一句話的承諾那個是沒辦法在真正面對混亂的時候沒辦法運作的\n所以我期待顧部長這邊第一個我們當然要有但是在國際的現實環境上我們不一定要講但是我希望慢慢這一步走向清晰化其實也是一個嚇阻的方式這部分的訊息的清晰其實也是讓那些蠢動的想要發動愚蠢的侵略的人他要重新去想定他的狀態\n可以建構一個Not Today今天可能狀況不一樣要重新他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫所以我才會在這邊常常提醒國防部在能顯露出來的訊息盟友之間的默契下應該顯露的基於國家利益可以顯露不應該顯露的也基於國家利益跟盟友互信也不顯露這個主題我最後是部長有沒有什麼需要補充的\n我只是想要說明的就是說這樣子的一個聯合軍演他的參演的兵力跟他演練的科目就是屬於這個美國在這個\n臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈\n所以他的效果上對我們台灣來講是一個正向的效果我認為是非常正面的一個效果我下一個比較具體是有關狙擊手的部分部長可以先回座啦我希望這個部分能夠有所改進這個是很細節的部分但是我覺得可以做一個思考我先看第二頁\n我們狙擊手其實在戰場上是很重要的一環訓練也要很扎實人員也要精挑細選但我們目前台灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題我希望我們經過今天的質詢能夠真的解決他第一個我們狙擊手一組狙擊手他要有一個成套的裝備\n然後呢裝備裡面包含彈道計算器包含測距儀個人通訊機為什麼要個人通訊機狙擊手的通訊要另外的你跟他混在一般的通訊裡面的話狙擊手在狙擊的環境下其實對他是不利的還有專屬的通訊設備這叫一套成套裝備那我們現在呢狙擊手成套裝備有嗎\n跟委員報告,狙擊手成套裝備因為狙擊手他的兵間的主要全職單位是在部校所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建了成套裝備有12項您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面那從今年\n從今年到114年我們也陸續逐步的在撥發了部隊在今年之前是不夠的嘛是不夠的對啊因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次就是說很久以前我們就討論過這個問題後來我發現欸怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機\n那有的有這個有的有那個變不成套嘛就好像我現在帶三個兵一個負責彈匣一個負責步槍另外一個帶著刺刀這邊開玩笑啊所以我們希望就是說在我們的國防預算有限下這個東西如果是必要你就要成套給他所以根據連期你這邊提供的就是你們希望在未來五年把它建制完成我們已經逐步作發到114年可以在整個配付完畢整個配付完畢好這第一件事情第二個\n部長你知道平行調波\n這個平行調波就是抓長補短嘛那這種平行調波其實會讓各單位在訓練的時候坦白講是省吃儉用我認為其他單位不知道至少在G級這一塊因為G級人沒有那麼多啦事實上可以讓他的配付量夠然後增加涉及訓練的頻率把平行調波至少不要用在G級這個部分能不能做得到\n報告委員跟您報告具體數字我不方便講因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣當然這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發量絕對是夠的當然那我們也了解那我們的確會檢討改進有些單位可能我們的彈是夠啦對阿有單位會比較他可能作業人員沒那麼熟沒有提前做申請\n然後讓這個在訓練的時候他們就感受到可能就不夠那當然我們這個增加社訓評估我們會做這個部分請你下去輔導特別我們從今年開始不管是我們的漢光40號採取無想定狀況ROE去中心化然後我們也實戰化訓練然後陸續那個151義南一年前會回來所以有些觀念要改我不是說現有的弟兄領導幹部班長錯而是說這個東西在變的當中\n末梢神經還沒有到那我們當將領的將領就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去所以這個麻煩他去溝通這個佩服量要夠另外我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊的競賽相當時間了嘛有很長時間了能不能再回去參加我們會積極在爭取跟協調\n有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去我們還要再跟他們做一個溝通協調讓我們掌握一下制度現在是美方不願意讓我們參加還是我們這邊提出的太慢我單獨再跟委員報告好 這個我們大家一起合作因為這有有有事關到交流協訓的部分對 這個就是現在我下面要講的我們的那個軍售配額軍售不是只有賣武器裝備訓練也是裡面一個軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額\n我們可以來做個檢討研究一下因為坦白講狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要所以如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練的課程能夠銜接上的話他帶回來也許可以把我們的狙擊手的能力提升所以我說今天是一個很細項但是長期被忽略的部分我們退出我們離開那個國際狙擊競賽很久\n那我們在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目我希望幫他們爭取到這個讓我們有優秀的狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來另外我們現在狙擊手的那個因為去美國受訓是可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌我最後要講就是說我們現在的狙擊手訓練場地是用戰車靶場對嗎\n跟委員報告我們整個可以訓練狙擊手場地本島有5處那我們每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽那從南側今年特別調整到我們白河那個南側嗎對 今年特別調整到這個三軍聯訓的基地我的建議你們現在就指定今年開始\n對 今年已經撤了以往我們軍手需要兩公里的範圍能撤的場地不多對又安全的考量所以常常是用戰車的場地我們現在戰車自己訓能可能都不太足了所以可能要增加他們訓練的場地用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法那我們另外瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡夜戰能力我特別要提醒部長或者我們參謀本部這裡\n從其他國家戰場看到的經驗 夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足 裝備也不夠這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來我最後建議你們思考看看 回到前面第一頁就是說美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手\n第一類 第二類 第三類一個第一類是特勤嘛第二類是聯兵營 機部營第三類是機部班等等特首 特首對 我們現在是分這三類這個只是建議我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手 維安狙擊手它的好處是我們跟國際盟友之間的對話與會會一樣鞭制雷同 接軌容易\n王定宇\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.911 --> 00:01.874\n謝謝召委麻煩部長請顧部長\n\n00:07.932 --> 00:29.290\n另外我待會會提到狙擊手的部分,請連七也上來一下。那個部長,先請教一下,現在美日的聯合歷劍,King'sSword2024,這個大概是一二十年來的,這個是正牌的歷劍演習,美國跟日本,兩年一次。那今年我看它的規模比以往都大,除了動用的\n\n00:30.211 --> 00:47.990\n美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到4萬5千名海空軍以外另外他也邀請了所謂的在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員相當多的國家這一次的美日歷艦軍演\n\n00:49.991 --> 00:53.334\n本席在這邊詢問每日的立建聯合軍演我們有沒有去觀察\n\n01:20.014 --> 01:33.981\n有,跟委員報告,我想這個是就如委員所講的,它動用的產業的兵力在日本的自衛兵力達到3萬3千多,那美國也達到1萬2千多那另外派遣各式的艦艇達到40幾艘,然後這組戰機有達到370餘架次\n\n01:42.264 --> 01:50.846\n他參演演練的科目也是相當的全程包括從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰兩棲空降、防空飛彈防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通安全確保\n\n02:05.789 --> 02:06.930\n那臺灣在這場演習的角色是什麼?觀察員\n\n02:18.944 --> 02:39.254\n坦白講他的科目看起來跟我們都有一點關係你說南海我們有太平島在那裡你說東海也是我們的防線之一也就是說他所關心的印太地區的和平跟穩定嚇阻武力破壞現狀事實上台灣是裡面我坦白講是主角不是配角\n\n02:40.034 --> 03:07.099\n所以他這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模他邀請的是他們有簽比如說美國跟澳洲有所謂的聯合的防禦條約等等這些有派兵力另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察那我該是請教當然基於國家安全跟國家利益我尊重部長可以保密但如果能透露的話我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演\n\n03:09.629 --> 03:35.697\n我想他有邀訪這個大概十幾個國家那我們並沒有被邀訪是我們沒有在邀訪國家當中是不過我想就如剛剛委員所講的其實我剛剛透露那些已經我不曉得算算是過多了但我只是強調這個他們每日協同來利用這個演習來進行一個\n\n03:38.298 --> 04:03.120\n相對應因為中國一直在維持我因為你該把那個科目念完那些不管是反登陸保護島嶼等等那些科目念完你就會得到一個圖像那個圖像我們大家各自想像但我的意思是說等於臺灣在正式的邀請國家名單裡面是沒有的但是我們應該會以某種形式的方式去了解這整個軍演的過程我這樣詮釋對不對\n\n04:05.865 --> 04:30.925\n可以這樣說後面我就不為難因為這些科目其實有些演習科目坦白講演習是我們平常有計劃透過演習來確認計劃是否可行再透過演習得到的數據去修正計劃再演習這是一個過程所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合的戰鬥力量\n\n04:33.615 --> 05:02.231\n有的要檯面上有的不一定要檯面上但我認為台灣在第一島鏈的重要性以及我們在相關建制起來的裝備這一些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的首領或者戰場環境的管理這個部分其實要透過扎實的去做而不是紙面上的或一句話的承諾那個是沒辦法在真正面對混亂的時候沒辦法運作的\n\n05:02.551 --> 05:27.107\n所以我期待顧部長這邊第一個我們當然要有但是在國際的現實環境上我們不一定要講但是我希望慢慢這一步走向清晰化其實也是一個嚇阻的方式這部分的訊息的清晰其實也是讓那些蠢動的想要發動愚蠢的侵略的人他要重新去想定他的狀態\n\n05:28.208 --> 05:52.303\n可以建構一個NotToday今天可能狀況不一樣要重新他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫所以我才會在這邊常常提醒國防部在能顯露出來的訊息盟友之間的默契下應該顯露的基於國家利益可以顯露不應該顯露的也基於國家利益跟盟友互信也不顯露這個主題我最後是部長有沒有什麼需要補充的\n\n05:52.771 --> 06:01.822\n我只是想要說明的就是說這樣子的一個聯合軍演他的參演的兵力跟他演練的科目就是屬於這個美國在這個\n\n06:04.655 --> 06:05.095\n臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈\n\n06:29.941 --> 06:53.369\n所以他的效果上對我們台灣來講是一個正向的效果我認為是非常正面的一個效果我下一個比較具體是有關狙擊手的部分部長可以先回座啦我希望這個部分能夠有所改進這個是很細節的部分但是我覺得可以做一個思考我先看第二頁\n\n06:55.520 --> 07:17.627\n我們狙擊手其實在戰場上是很重要的一環訓練也要很扎實人員也要精挑細選但我們目前台灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題我希望我們經過今天的質詢能夠真的解決他第一個我們狙擊手一組狙擊手他要有一個成套的裝備\n\n07:19.465 --> 07:41.472\n然後呢裝備裡面包含彈道計算器包含測距儀個人通訊機為什麼要個人通訊機狙擊手的通訊要另外的你跟他混在一般的通訊裡面的話狙擊手在狙擊的環境下其實對他是不利的還有專屬的通訊設備這叫一套成套裝備那我們現在呢狙擊手成套裝備有嗎\n\n07:43.158 --> 08:00.782\n跟委員報告,狙擊手成套裝備因為狙擊手他的兵間的主要全職單位是在部校所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建了成套裝備有12項您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面那從今年\n\n08:03.523 --> 08:15.008\n從今年到114年我們也陸續逐步的在撥發了部隊在今年之前是不夠的嘛是不夠的對啊因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次就是說很久以前我們就討論過這個問題後來我發現欸怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機\n\n08:19.994 --> 08:48.317\n那有的有這個有的有那個變不成套嘛就好像我現在帶三個兵一個負責彈匣一個負責步槍另外一個帶著刺刀這邊開玩笑啊所以我們希望就是說在我們的國防預算有限下這個東西如果是必要你就要成套給他所以根據連期你這邊提供的就是你們希望在未來五年把它建制完成我們已經逐步作發到114年可以在整個配付完畢整個配付完畢好這第一件事情第二個\n\n08:49.633 --> 08:50.414\n部長你知道平行調波\n\n09:19.653 --> 09:44.563\n這個平行調波就是抓長補短嘛那這種平行調波其實會讓各單位在訓練的時候坦白講是省吃儉用我認為其他單位不知道至少在G級這一塊因為G級人沒有那麼多啦事實上可以讓他的配付量夠然後增加涉及訓練的頻率把平行調波至少不要用在G級這個部分能不能做得到\n\n09:45.483 --> 10:10.342\n報告委員跟您報告具體數字我不方便講因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣當然這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發量絕對是夠的當然那我們也了解那我們的確會檢討改進有些單位可能我們的彈是夠啦對阿有單位會比較他可能作業人員沒那麼熟沒有提前做申請\n\n10:11.423 --> 10:34.942\n然後讓這個在訓練的時候他們就感受到可能就不夠那當然我們這個增加社訓評估我們會做這個部分請你下去輔導特別我們從今年開始不管是我們的漢光40號採取無想定狀況ROE去中心化然後我們也實戰化訓練然後陸續那個151義南一年前會回來所以有些觀念要改我不是說現有的弟兄領導幹部班長錯而是說這個東西在變的當中\n\n10:39.326 --> 10:59.192\n末梢神經還沒有到那我們當將領的將領就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去所以這個麻煩他去溝通這個佩服量要夠另外我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊的競賽相當時間了嘛有很長時間了能不能再回去參加我們會積極在爭取跟協調\n\n11:01.055 --> 11:28.997\n有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去我們還要再跟他們做一個溝通協調讓我們掌握一下制度現在是美方不願意讓我們參加還是我們這邊提出的太慢我單獨再跟委員報告好這個我們大家一起合作因為這有有有事關到交流協訓的部分對這個就是現在我下面要講的我們的那個軍售配額軍售不是只有賣武器裝備訓練也是裡面一個軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額\n\n11:32.042 --> 11:55.589\n我們可以來做個檢討研究一下因為坦白講狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要所以如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練的課程能夠銜接上的話他帶回來也許可以把我們的狙擊手的能力提升所以我說今天是一個很細項但是長期被忽略的部分我們退出我們離開那個國際狙擊競賽很久\n\n11:57.910 --> 12:17.906\n那我們在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目我希望幫他們爭取到這個讓我們有優秀的狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來另外我們現在狙擊手的那個因為去美國受訓是可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌我最後要講就是說我們現在的狙擊手訓練場地是用戰車靶場對嗎\n\n12:20.434 --> 12:40.584\n跟委員報告我們整個可以訓練狙擊手場地本島有5處那我們每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽那從南側今年特別調整到我們白河那個南側嗎對今年特別調整到這個三軍聯訓的基地我的建議你們現在就指定今年開始\n\n12:41.464 --> 13:04.890\n對今年已經撤了以往我們軍手需要兩公里的範圍能撤的場地不多對又安全的考量所以常常是用戰車的場地我們現在戰車自己訓能可能都不太足了所以可能要增加他們訓練的場地用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法那我們另外瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡夜戰能力我特別要提醒部長或者我們參謀本部這裡\n\n13:07.195 --> 13:26.803\n從其他國家戰場看到的經驗夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足裝備也不夠這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來我最後建議你們思考看看回到前面第一頁就是說美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手\n\n13:27.603 --> 13:53.788\n第一類第二類第三類一個第一類是特勤嘛第二類是聯兵營機部營第三類是機部班等等特首特首對我們現在是分這三類這個只是建議我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手維安狙擊手它的好處是我們跟國際盟友之間的對話與會會一樣鞭制雷同接軌容易\n\n13:54.488 --> 13:54.768\n王定宇\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.911,"end":1.874,"text":"謝謝召委麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":7.932,"end":29.29,"text":"另外我待會會提到狙擊手的部分,請連七也上來一下。那個部長,先請教一下,現在美日的聯合歷劍,King's Sword 2024,這個大概是一二十年來的,這個是正牌的歷劍演習,美國跟日本,兩年一次。那今年我看它的規模比以往都大,除了動用的"},{"start":30.211,"end":47.99,"text":"美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到4萬5千名海空軍以外另外他也邀請了所謂的在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員相當多的國家這一次的美日歷艦軍演"},{"start":49.991,"end":53.334,"text":"本席在這邊詢問每日的立建聯合軍演我們有沒有去觀察"},{"start":80.014,"end":93.981,"text":"有,跟委員報告,我想這個是就如委員所講的,它動用的產業的兵力在日本的自衛兵力達到3萬3千多,那美國也達到1萬2千多那另外派遣各式的艦艇達到40幾艘,然後這組戰機有達到370餘架次"},{"start":102.264,"end":110.846,"text":"他參演演練的科目也是相當的全程包括從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰兩棲空降、防空飛彈防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通安全確保"},{"start":125.789,"end":126.93,"text":"那臺灣在這場演習的角色是什麼?觀察員"},{"start":138.944,"end":159.254,"text":"坦白講他的科目看起來跟我們都有一點關係你說南海我們有太平島在那裡你說東海也是我們的防線之一也就是說他所關心的印太地區的和平跟穩定嚇阻武力破壞現狀事實上台灣是裡面我坦白講是主角不是配角"},{"start":160.034,"end":187.099,"text":"所以他這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模他邀請的是他們有簽比如說美國跟澳洲有所謂的聯合的防禦條約等等這些有派兵力另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察那我該是請教當然基於國家安全跟國家利益我尊重部長可以保密但如果能透露的話我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演"},{"start":189.629,"end":215.697,"text":"我想他有邀訪這個大概十幾個國家那我們並沒有被邀訪是我們沒有在邀訪國家當中是不過我想就如剛剛委員所講的其實我剛剛透露那些已經我不曉得算算是過多了但我只是強調這個他們每日協同來利用這個演習來進行一個"},{"start":218.298,"end":243.12,"text":"相對應因為中國一直在維持我因為你該把那個科目念完那些不管是反登陸保護島嶼等等那些科目念完你就會得到一個圖像那個圖像我們大家各自想像但我的意思是說等於臺灣在正式的邀請國家名單裡面是沒有的但是我們應該會以某種形式的方式去了解這整個軍演的過程我這樣詮釋對不對"},{"start":245.865,"end":270.925,"text":"可以這樣說後面我就不為難因為這些科目其實有些演習科目坦白講演習是我們平常有計劃透過演習來確認計劃是否可行再透過演習得到的數據去修正計劃再演習這是一個過程所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合的戰鬥力量"},{"start":273.615,"end":302.231,"text":"有的要檯面上有的不一定要檯面上但我認為台灣在第一島鏈的重要性以及我們在相關建制起來的裝備這一些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的首領或者戰場環境的管理這個部分其實要透過扎實的去做而不是紙面上的或一句話的承諾那個是沒辦法在真正面對混亂的時候沒辦法運作的"},{"start":302.551,"end":327.107,"text":"所以我期待顧部長這邊第一個我們當然要有但是在國際的現實環境上我們不一定要講但是我希望慢慢這一步走向清晰化其實也是一個嚇阻的方式這部分的訊息的清晰其實也是讓那些蠢動的想要發動愚蠢的侵略的人他要重新去想定他的狀態"},{"start":328.208,"end":352.303,"text":"可以建構一個Not Today今天可能狀況不一樣要重新他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫所以我才會在這邊常常提醒國防部在能顯露出來的訊息盟友之間的默契下應該顯露的基於國家利益可以顯露不應該顯露的也基於國家利益跟盟友互信也不顯露這個主題我最後是部長有沒有什麼需要補充的"},{"start":352.771,"end":361.822,"text":"我只是想要說明的就是說這樣子的一個聯合軍演他的參演的兵力跟他演練的科目就是屬於這個美國在這個"},{"start":364.655,"end":365.095,"text":"臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈"},{"start":389.941,"end":413.369,"text":"所以他的效果上對我們台灣來講是一個正向的效果我認為是非常正面的一個效果我下一個比較具體是有關狙擊手的部分部長可以先回座啦我希望這個部分能夠有所改進這個是很細節的部分但是我覺得可以做一個思考我先看第二頁"},{"start":415.52,"end":437.627,"text":"我們狙擊手其實在戰場上是很重要的一環訓練也要很扎實人員也要精挑細選但我們目前台灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題我希望我們經過今天的質詢能夠真的解決他第一個我們狙擊手一組狙擊手他要有一個成套的裝備"},{"start":439.465,"end":461.472,"text":"然後呢裝備裡面包含彈道計算器包含測距儀個人通訊機為什麼要個人通訊機狙擊手的通訊要另外的你跟他混在一般的通訊裡面的話狙擊手在狙擊的環境下其實對他是不利的還有專屬的通訊設備這叫一套成套裝備那我們現在呢狙擊手成套裝備有嗎"},{"start":463.158,"end":480.782,"text":"跟委員報告,狙擊手成套裝備因為狙擊手他的兵間的主要全職單位是在部校所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建了成套裝備有12項您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面那從今年"},{"start":483.523,"end":495.008,"text":"從今年到114年我們也陸續逐步的在撥發了部隊在今年之前是不夠的嘛是不夠的對啊因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次就是說很久以前我們就討論過這個問題後來我發現欸怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機"},{"start":499.994,"end":528.317,"text":"那有的有這個有的有那個變不成套嘛就好像我現在帶三個兵一個負責彈匣一個負責步槍另外一個帶著刺刀這邊開玩笑啊所以我們希望就是說在我們的國防預算有限下這個東西如果是必要你就要成套給他所以根據連期你這邊提供的就是你們希望在未來五年把它建制完成我們已經逐步作發到114年可以在整個配付完畢整個配付完畢好這第一件事情第二個"},{"start":529.633,"end":530.414,"text":"部長你知道平行調波"},{"start":559.653,"end":584.563,"text":"這個平行調波就是抓長補短嘛那這種平行調波其實會讓各單位在訓練的時候坦白講是省吃儉用我認為其他單位不知道至少在G級這一塊因為G級人沒有那麼多啦事實上可以讓他的配付量夠然後增加涉及訓練的頻率把平行調波至少不要用在G級這個部分能不能做得到"},{"start":585.483,"end":610.342,"text":"報告委員跟您報告具體數字我不方便講因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣當然這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發量絕對是夠的當然那我們也了解那我們的確會檢討改進有些單位可能我們的彈是夠啦對阿有單位會比較他可能作業人員沒那麼熟沒有提前做申請"},{"start":611.423,"end":634.942,"text":"然後讓這個在訓練的時候他們就感受到可能就不夠那當然我們這個增加社訓評估我們會做這個部分請你下去輔導特別我們從今年開始不管是我們的漢光40號採取無想定狀況ROE去中心化然後我們也實戰化訓練然後陸續那個151義南一年前會回來所以有些觀念要改我不是說現有的弟兄領導幹部班長錯而是說這個東西在變的當中"},{"start":639.326,"end":659.192,"text":"末梢神經還沒有到那我們當將領的將領就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去所以這個麻煩他去溝通這個佩服量要夠另外我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊的競賽相當時間了嘛有很長時間了能不能再回去參加我們會積極在爭取跟協調"},{"start":661.055,"end":688.997,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去我們還要再跟他們做一個溝通協調讓我們掌握一下制度現在是美方不願意讓我們參加還是我們這邊提出的太慢我單獨再跟委員報告好 這個我們大家一起合作因為這有有有事關到交流協訓的部分對 這個就是現在我下面要講的我們的那個軍售配額軍售不是只有賣武器裝備訓練也是裡面一個軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額"},{"start":692.042,"end":715.589,"text":"我們可以來做個檢討研究一下因為坦白講狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要所以如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練的課程能夠銜接上的話他帶回來也許可以把我們的狙擊手的能力提升所以我說今天是一個很細項但是長期被忽略的部分我們退出我們離開那個國際狙擊競賽很久"},{"start":717.91,"end":737.906,"text":"那我們在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目我希望幫他們爭取到這個讓我們有優秀的狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來另外我們現在狙擊手的那個因為去美國受訓是可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌我最後要講就是說我們現在的狙擊手訓練場地是用戰車靶場對嗎"},{"start":740.434,"end":760.584,"text":"跟委員報告我們整個可以訓練狙擊手場地本島有5處那我們每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽那從南側今年特別調整到我們白河那個南側嗎對 今年特別調整到這個三軍聯訓的基地我的建議你們現在就指定今年開始"},{"start":761.464,"end":784.89,"text":"對 今年已經撤了以往我們軍手需要兩公里的範圍能撤的場地不多對又安全的考量所以常常是用戰車的場地我們現在戰車自己訓能可能都不太足了所以可能要增加他們訓練的場地用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法那我們另外瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡夜戰能力我特別要提醒部長或者我們參謀本部這裡"},{"start":787.195,"end":806.803,"text":"從其他國家戰場看到的經驗 夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足 裝備也不夠這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來我最後建議你們思考看看 回到前面第一頁就是說美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手"},{"start":807.603,"end":833.788,"text":"第一類 第二類 第三類一個第一類是特勤嘛第二類是聯兵營 機部營第三類是機部班等等特首 特首對 我們現在是分這三類這個只是建議我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手 維安狙擊手它的好處是我們跟國際盟友之間的對話與會會一樣鞭制雷同 接軌容易"},{"start":834.488,"end":834.768,"text":"王定宇"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時39分）謝謝召委，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["王委員定宇：另外我待會會提到狙擊手的部分，請聯七也上來一下。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長，請教一下，現在美日的聯合利劍Keen Sword 2024，這個大概是一、二十年來的，是正牌的利劍演習，美國跟日本兩年一次。今年我看它的規模比以往都大，除了動用美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到四萬五千名海空軍以外，另外他也邀請了所謂在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員，有相當多的國家。這一次的美日利劍軍演，裡面日本的官階等於是我們的參謀總長，他特別提到他的目標就是嚇阻想要用武力在這個區域變動現狀的人，當然一般詮釋起來就是劍指中國。不管是南海的局勢、臺海的局勢、東海的局勢，其實臺灣都跟這件事情是有關係的。本席要詢問，美日的利劍聯合軍演，我們有沒有去觀察？"],["顧部長立雄：有，跟委員報告，我想這個就如委員所講的，他動用了參演的兵力，在日本的自衛兵力達到三萬三千多，美國也達到了一萬兩千多，另外派遣各式的艦艇達到四十幾艘，然後戰機有達到三百七十餘架，它參演的科目也是相當的全程……"],["王委員定宇：它的演練科目，因為它從10月23號到11月1號……"],["顧部長立雄：包括指揮所的演練……"],["王委員定宇：跟中國那個山寨版的利劍，完全是不一樣的東西嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對，它從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰、兩棲空降、防空飛彈的防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通的安全確保，然後重要設施的防護，還有後勤的補給醫療、聯合指揮通信系統等等這些都涵蓋在內。"],["王委員定宇：臺灣在這場演習的角色是什麼？觀察員？"],["顧部長立雄：我們……"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，它的科目看起來跟我們都有點關係，南海我們有太平島在那裡，東海也是我們的防線之一，也就是說它所關心印太地區的和平跟穩定，嚇阻武力破壞現狀，事實上臺灣是裡面的主角，不是配角。所以這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模，它邀請的是比方說美國跟澳洲有簽所謂的聯合防禦條約等等，這些有派兵力。另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察，我剛剛是請教，當然基於國家安全跟國家利益，我尊重部長，可以保密，但如果能透露，我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演？"],["顧部長立雄：他們有邀訪大概十幾個國家，我們並沒有被邀訪。"],["王委員定宇：我們沒有在邀訪國家當中？"],["顧部長立雄：是，不過就如剛剛委員所講的，其實我剛剛透露的那些不曉得算不算是過多，但我只是強調美日協同利用這個演習來進行一個相對應……因為中國一直在……"],["王委員定宇：因為你剛才把那個科目念完，不管是反登陸、保護島嶼等等，那些科目念完就會得到一個圖像，那個圖像我們各自想像，我的意思是，臺灣等於是沒有在正式邀請國家名單裡面，但我們應該會以某種形式、方式去了解這整個軍演的過程，我這樣詮釋，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：可以這樣說。"],["王委員定宇：是，後面我就不為難，因為這些科目其實……有些演習科目坦白講，演習是平常有計畫，透過演習來確認計畫是否可行，再透過演習得到的數據修正計畫之後再演習，這是一個過程。所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合戰鬥力量，有的要檯面上，有的不一定要檯面上。我認為臺灣在第一島鏈的重要性，以及我們相關建置起來的裝備，這些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的熟稔，以及戰場環境的管理，這其實要紮實的去做，而不是紙面上或一句話的承諾，那個在真正面對混亂時是沒辦法運作的。所以我期待顧部長，第一個，我們當然要有，但是在國際的現實環境上不一定要講，我希望這一步慢慢走向清晰化，也是一個嚇阻的方式，這部分訊息的清晰，其實也是讓那些蠢動的、想要發動愚蠢侵略的人要重新想定他的狀態，可以建構一個not today，可能今天狀況不一樣，要重新……他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫。所以我才會常常在這邊提醒國防部，在能顯露出來的訊息及盟友之間的默契下，應該顯露的，基於國家利益可以顯露；不應該顯露的，也基於國家利益跟盟友互信而不顯露。關於這個主題，最後部長有沒有什麼需要補充的？"],["顧部長立雄：我想要說明的是，這樣的一個聯合軍演參演的兵力跟演練科目就是屬於美國在要求印太司令部協同印太第一島鏈國家，跟他們來做這樣的演練，產生協同嚇阻效果，在這樣的政策觀念之下所從事的必要軍事演練。"],["王委員定宇：所以他們在第一島鏈形成軍事嚇阻，臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈。"],["顧部長立雄：那當然，我們就在……"],["王委員定宇：在效果上，對我們臺灣來講是正向的效果。"],["顧部長立雄：我認為是非常正面的。"],["王委員定宇：那這個題目先探討到這邊，下一個比較具體的是關於狙擊手，部長可以先回座。我希望這部分能夠有所改進，這是很細節的部分，但是我覺得可以思考。","先看第2頁，其實狙擊手在戰場上是很重要的一環，訓練也要很紮實，人員也要精挑細選，但我們目前臺灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題，我希望經過今天的質詢能夠真的解決。第一個，一組狙擊手要有一個成套的裝備，裝備裡面包含彈道計算機、測距儀、個人通訊機，為什麼要個人通訊機？狙擊手的通訊是要另外的，混在一般的通訊裡面的話，在狙擊的環境下，其實對狙擊手是不利的。還有專屬的通訊設備，這叫一套成套裝備，那我們現在呢？狙擊手有成套裝備嗎？"],["張次長俊志：跟委員報告，關於狙擊手成套裝備，因為狙擊手兵監的主要權責單位是在步校，所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建的成套裝備有12項，您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面。"],["王委員定宇：量夠不夠？有的人有……"],["張次長俊志：從今年到114年，我們陸續逐步的撥發到部隊。"],["王委員定宇：所以在今年之前是不夠的？"],["張次長俊志：是不夠的。"],["王委員定宇：對啊，因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次，很久以前我們就討論過這個問題，後來我發現怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機，有的有這個、有的有那個，變成不成套嘛！就好像我現在帶3個兵，一個負責彈匣、一個負責步槍，另外一個帶著刺刀，開玩笑啊！所以我們希望在國防預算有限下，這個東西如果是必要，就要成套給他們。根據聯七這邊提供的，你們希望在未來5年把它建置完成？"],["張次長俊志：我們已經逐步撥發到114年可以整個配賦完畢。"],["王委員定宇：整個配賦完畢？好，這第一件事情。","第二個，我們的訓練對彈藥太節省，我知道尤其是陸軍，三軍最可以配得上勤儉建軍的就是陸軍，最會省，但其實彈藥會有效期的，在訓練實戰化、實彈訓練，其實這一塊沒有必要節省，所以彈藥的配賦量應該讓狙擊手有所專屬，增加射擊頻率，現在有一個叫做平行調撥嘛，部長，你知道平行調撥吧！平行調撥就是抓長補短。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，這種平行調撥其實會讓各單位在訓練時省吃儉用，其他單位我不知道，我認為至少在狙擊這塊，因為狙擊人沒有那麼多，事實上可以讓他們的配賦量夠，然後增加射擊訓練的頻率，平行調撥至少不要用在狙擊這部分，能不能做得到？"],["張次長俊志：報告委員，具體數字我不方便講，因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣。"],["王委員定宇：當然。"],["張次長俊志：這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發，量絕對是夠的。"],["王委員定宇：當然。"],["張次長俊志：我們也了解，我們的確也會檢討改進，有些單位……"],["王委員定宇：彈是夠啦，有的單位會比較……"],["張次長俊志：可能作業人員沒那麼熟，沒有提前做申請，他們在訓練的時候可能就感受到不夠，當然我們增加射訓……"],["王委員定宇：這部分請你下去輔導，特別從今年開始，不管是漢光40號採取無想定狀況、ROE、去中心化，也做實戰化訓練，然後義務役役男一年期陸續會回來，所以有些觀念要改，我不是說現有的弟兄、領導幹部、班長錯了，而是這個東西在變的過程中，末梢神經還沒有到，當將領的就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去，所以麻煩下去溝通，配賦量要夠。","另外，我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊競賽已經相當時間了嘛？"],["張次長俊志：有很長時間了。"],["王委員定宇：能不能再回去參加？"],["張次長俊志：我們會積極爭取跟協調。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去？"],["張次長俊志：我們還要再跟他們溝通協調。"],["王委員定宇：讓我們掌握一下進度，現在是美方不願意讓我們參加，還是我們這邊提出的太慢？"],["張次長俊志：我單獨再跟委員報告。"],["王委員定宇：好，我們大家一起合作。"],["張次長俊志：因為這事關交流協訓的部分。"],["王委員定宇：對，這就牽涉到我下面要講的，關於我們的軍售配額，軍售不是只有賣武器裝備，訓練也是其中一個，軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額？"],["張次長俊志：我們可以來做檢討。"],["王委員定宇：研究一下，因為坦白講，狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要，如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練課程能夠銜接上的話，他們帶回來的也許可以把我們的狙擊手能力提升，所以我說今天是一個很細項但長期被忽略的部分，我們離開國際狙擊競賽很久，在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目，我希望幫他們爭取，讓我們有優秀狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來。另外，現在狙擊手的那個……因為去美國受訓可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌。","我最後要講的就是，現在狙擊手的訓練場地是用戰車靶場，對嗎？"],["張次長俊志：跟委員報告，本島有5處可以訓練狙擊手的場地，每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽，從南測……今年特別到……"],["王委員定宇：從我們白河的南測嗎？"],["張次長俊志：對，今年特別調整到三軍聯訓的基地。"],["王委員定宇：OK，我的建議你們現在就執行，今年開始。"],["張次長俊志：對，今年已經測了。"],["王委員定宇：以往我們狙擊手需要兩公里的範圍，能測的場地不多。"],["張次長俊志：對。"],["王委員定宇：又有安全的考量，所以常常是用戰車的場地，現在戰車自己的訓能可能都不太足了，要增加他們訓練的場地，用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法。另外，瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡，針對夜戰能力，我特別要提醒部長或者參謀本部，從其他國家的戰場看到的經驗，夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要的，而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足，裝備也不夠，這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來。","我最後建議你們思考看看，美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手──第一類、第二類、第三類，第一類是特勤，第二類是聯兵營、機步營，第三類是機步班等等，我們現在是分這三類。這個只是建議，我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手、維安狙擊手，它的好處是，我們跟國際盟友之間的對話語彙會一樣，編制雷同，接軌容易。原來的編制不是不好，但如果我們是有盟友協同的時候，我們比照他們的野戰狙擊手跟維安狙擊手，在對話的語彙、戰術以及溝通上會比較容易接軌。如果你們認為現在的制度比較好，我也尊重，請你們思考一下，以上給部長跟各聯參單位來做參考，謝謝。"],["張次長俊志：謝謝委員。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，部長請回。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}}