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\"我跟你說一百一十九萬對啊現在一百一十九萬可以幹嘛這個跟委員報告跟委員報告那個經費的話我們是拿在文路修復拿來做一些一些情況之後他資金累積的還是超過那個錢我就說嘛這個如果我們跟全民的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦你看嘛我就說跟台北車站的置物櫃來比就好如果用這樣子來算啦你的一百一十八萬\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 373.769, \"end\": 373.889, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 373.889, \"end\": 374.009, \"score\": 0.553}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 374.009, \"end\": 374.769, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 374.769, \"end\": 374.889, \"score\": 0.606}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 374.889, \"end\": 375.029, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 375.029, \"end\": 375.169, \"score\": 0.479}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 375.169, \"end\": 375.329, \"score\": 0.584}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 375.329, \"end\": 375.529, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 375.529, \"end\": 376.37, \"score\": 0.651}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 376.37, \"end\": 376.57, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"一\", 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631.407, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"瑾\", \"start\": 631.407, \"end\": 631.487, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 631.487, \"end\": 631.507, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,427 --> 00:00:03,608\n蕭院長蕭院長\n\n2\n00:00:12,284 --> 00:00:35,473\n委員好故宮文物是台灣的國寶我想也是全人類共享的這個珍貴文化資產所以這個國際觀光客來到故宮我們其實除了有助於台灣的這個旅遊經濟的觀光效益之外其實也要讓世界看到台灣對文化資產的維護跟保存彰顯我國的文化軟實力\n\n3\n00:00:36,613 --> 00:00:57,710\n那所以任何故宮所管理的文物不管是管藏或者是寄存我們同樣都要愛護跟重視它在人類文明史上的價值好那文物的價值是一回事那我國中央部會公開向人民負責的態度又是一回事在民主法治的台灣兩者互相獨立而且一樣重要\n\n4\n00:01:01,373 --> 00:01:26,395\n這個會期是預算會期所以我要請蕭院長待會你務必要拿回負責任的態度面對納稅人說清楚故宮跟既存的私人文物特別是超過半世紀紙幣一甲子的板橋林家雙方故宮跟板橋林家雙方到底是有什麼樣的權利跟義務首先請院長看這張表\n\n5\n00:01:27,576 --> 00:01:44,292\n為什麼所有來故宮寄存的文物就板橋林家的待遇最優惠寄存期滿還有緩衝期緩衝期滿了還要請全民掏腰包幫他們看管文物都不用像中華電信依據新制的作業要點來洽談續存的合約\n\n6\n00:01:46,954 --> 00:02:15,655\n人家清水皇家就連要捐贈文物給故宮都要得依新制的作業要點來辦理審查所以現在故宮之所以好不容易擁有一個相對完善合理的所謂的文物寄存的新制度就是在吳密茶院長的任內推動改革的結果改革的核心是什麼改革的核心就是這個寄存制度應該是國家協助私人保護這個文物的制度\n\n7\n00:02:16,095 --> 00:02:38,872\n那當私人文物依照文化資產保存法指定為國寶或者是重要文物但他卻無力保存的時候那國家有義務來提供庫房資源來協助那板橋0加906件文物裡頭每一件都是依照文化資產保存法指定的國寶或重要文物嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:39,733 --> 00:02:50,845\n那板橋林家有能力收入那麼多的古物那可是他卻不願意花錢自行來保存然後要國家的資源來相助的同時那為什麼這個集體長期存在這個\n\n9\n00:02:54,989 --> 00:03:12,547\n我們的故宮那所謂的這個不管是費用問題或怎麼樣問題這個合理性在哪裡讓我們繼續來探討那如果板橋林家不需要用遵守所謂的新制這個產品徵集作業要點的規範那全國人民到底要負擔多少\n\n10\n00:03:13,328 --> 00:03:28,775\n的成本跟風險。我們新制明定喔既存者應該繳納必要的保管跟維護費所以我要請教院長不用遵照新制的板橋林家我們故宮一年要少掉多少保管跟維護費\n\n11\n00:03:30,035 --> 00:03:54,750\n新制規定,寄存者應該依據文物寄存審查後定出來的保險價值購買藝術品的中和保險而且故宮是要列為所謂的共同被保險人那院長不用遵守新制的板橋林家906件文物又任何一件出狀況那是不是要叫全民買單以上,問院長你幫我回答一下\n\n12\n00:03:55,992 --> 00:03:57,634\n等下我會跟你探討這個一百萬你先說為什麼他不遵守新制\n\n13\n00:04:21,474 --> 00:04:34,570\n那為什麼其他的我說像清水皇家也好中華電信也好要繼續在故宮寄存但都有依照我們所謂的新的規定辦法來重新簽約那為什麼板橋林家不用\n\n14\n00:04:35,438 --> 00:04:53,588\n跟委員報告因為原來寄存最早原始寄存者的話他是一個人但是一個人的話他原來是希望這個文物永久留在故宮所以他還有一個但書就是說如果以後故宮文物返還大陸的話他的東西還是要留在台灣\n\n15\n00:04:54,568 --> 00:05:03,973\n所以基本上來講的話他是以一種所謂的捐贈的心態去那現在可以辦理捐贈啊想辦法啊\n\n16\n00:05:14,359 --> 00:05:22,565\n我們有在想辦法因為未來的故宮寄存的概念的話是以捐贈為原則我知道可是因為六個代表的話沒有辦法有一致的意見\n\n17\n00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:37,841\n這個你要處理啊不能因為這樣子我們有在處理我們有在處理那你剛剛提到100萬板橋這個謎樣的100萬現在支息後變成118萬這個用途是什麼這等一下我們再來探討可是你看這個投影片上我們看臺北車站的置物櫃就好一個小時20塊來計算如果民眾把私人物品寄放在這裡一年大約20萬就可以買一棟房子\n\n18\n00:05:58,387 --> 00:05:58,687\n一百一十九萬多\n\n19\n00:06:13,769 --> 00:06:23,411\n我跟你說一百一十九萬對啊現在一百一十九萬可以幹嘛這個跟委員報告跟委員報告那個經費的話我們是拿在文路修復拿來做一些一些情況之後他資金累積的還是超過那個錢我就說嘛這個如果我們跟全民的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦你看嘛我就說跟台北車站的置物櫃來比就好如果用這樣子來算啦你的一百一十八萬\n\n20\n00:06:39,814 --> 00:07:07,441\n繼存了55年從1969年我出生那一年開始繼存到現在我們等於一年平均只付了差不多兩萬元所以我覺得這個其實等於是我們故宮的庫房比台北車站的置物櫃還便宜跟委員報告文物的價值並不是說用這個來算因為這些文物的價值不是用這個來算可是我們故宮的庫房包括我們的濕度我們的整個那個要花多少錢來算\n\n21\n00:07:08,717 --> 00:07:09,037\n要花多少來建制﹖\n\n22\n00:07:19,838 --> 00:07:25,060\n那好那為什麼說剛剛我就說100萬這個為什麼是那麼迷惘因為他這個用途不明你們跟我的說明也都今天倒倒今年2月故宮送交立法院的書面報告是寫說板橋林家放在故宮的100萬是專門用來維護他們的寄存的私人文物是這樣講\n\n23\n00:07:41,306 --> 00:07:57,105\n今年5月林宜瑾本辦的文件跟說這一百萬是故宮列於專戶存放一直用來收購文物用途未任意動之那所以未來將來也不會隨著板橋林家如果他們要取回這個私人文物會一併領回對吧\n\n24\n00:07:59,575 --> 00:08:07,559\n亂七八糟你講話你以為說這是要來維護他們的私人文物今天講這個東西我不會聽到那個100萬的話我的水電我的空調費用的話是一個批次算的我不太可能去跟那個什麼台電說裡面的話大概兩萬塊我用這筆來出所以他大概是一個水庫的概念你的回答再再證明了再再證明了我們幾乎是無常在保存板橋林家的文物\n\n25\n00:08:28,649 --> 00:08:35,672\n的私人文物那你拿所謂的那所謂的100萬請故宮當管家是這個對價關係嗎還是說我們純然就是所謂的無償無償來保管所以我覺得這個其實你因為無償對價關係對價關係的話基本上是這樣因為原來的記償的時候並沒有這些規定但是\n\n26\n00:08:56,082 --> 00:09:02,169\n規定是之後的當然就是說法律可是要與時俱進嘛與時俱進是一種講法另外的話法律不溯及既往那當然也是另外一種規定不溯及既往阿人家其他其他的我說什麼清水皇家中華電信他也過去就答清楚了我們基本上來講反正你對於板橋林家的特殊這個部分我一定追究到底你要給我說明清楚\n\n27\n00:09:17,165 --> 00:09:37,738\n因為在這批展覽這批東西的話在故宮展覽有展覽的近百次所以基本上來講的話歷次的展覽都會拿出來展所以並不是說那以前要依法自走依法自走嘛依照所謂的文物保存文物資產保存條例來認定說它是國寶還是古物對不對?是不是?它是不是真的有寫到?它也沒有規定說一定是國寶或重要古物才能寄存其實也沒有\n\n28\n00:09:45,723 --> 00:10:02,515\n現在新法是這樣你要看清楚喔新法沒有他只是講文化資產價值他沒有講對文化資產價值阿文化資產價值的話就依照這個文化資產保存法來認定文化價值阿有國保有重要古物有一般古物基本上來講的話他就算進了故宮一般古物的話他也既有文資價值\n\n29\n00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:17,444\n問院長私人文物進來寄存這個程序我覺得是明明有更好更完備的所謂的藏品徵集作業要點可以依循我覺得你就偏偏要開後門這個不是我開的後門這個故宮含有以前的案例反正時間的關係對於板橋私人文物寄存的正當性您今天的回答還是說不出一個所以然所以我覺得這個部分\n\n30\n00:10:30,967 --> 00:10:31,507\n謝謝林宜瑾委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3427\t3608\t蕭院長蕭院長\n12284\t35473\t委員好故宮文物是台灣的國寶我想也是全人類共享的這個珍貴文化資產所以這個國際觀光客來到故宮我們其實除了有助於台灣的這個旅遊經濟的觀光效益之外其實也要讓世界看到台灣對文化資產的維護跟保存彰顯我國的文化軟實力\n36613\t57710\t那所以任何故宮所管理的文物不管是管藏或者是寄存我們同樣都要愛護跟重視它在人類文明史上的價值好那文物的價值是一回事那我國中央部會公開向人民負責的態度又是一回事在民主法治的台灣兩者互相獨立而且一樣重要\n61373\t86395\t這個會期是預算會期所以我要請蕭院長待會你務必要拿回負責任的態度面對納稅人說清楚故宮跟既存的私人文物特別是超過半世紀紙幣一甲子的板橋林家雙方故宮跟板橋林家雙方到底是有什麼樣的權利跟義務首先請院長看這張表\n87576\t104292\t為什麼所有來故宮寄存的文物就板橋林家的待遇最優惠寄存期滿還有緩衝期緩衝期滿了還要請全民掏腰包幫他們看管文物都不用像中華電信依據新制的作業要點來洽談續存的合約\n106954\t135655\t人家清水皇家就連要捐贈文物給故宮都要得依新制的作業要點來辦理審查所以現在故宮之所以好不容易擁有一個相對完善合理的所謂的文物寄存的新制度就是在吳密茶院長的任內推動改革的結果改革的核心是什麼改革的核心就是這個寄存制度應該是國家協助私人保護這個文物的制度\n136095\t158872\t那當私人文物依照文化資產保存法指定為國寶或者是重要文物但他卻無力保存的時候那國家有義務來提供庫房資源來協助那板橋0加906件文物裡頭每一件都是依照文化資產保存法指定的國寶或重要文物嗎?\n159733\t170845\t那板橋林家有能力收入那麼多的古物那可是他卻不願意花錢自行來保存然後要國家的資源來相助的同時那為什麼這個集體長期存在這個\n174989\t192547\t我們的故宮那所謂的這個不管是費用問題或怎麼樣問題這個合理性在哪裡讓我們繼續來探討那如果板橋林家不需要用遵守所謂的新制這個產品徵集作業要點的規範那全國人民到底要負擔多少\n193328\t208775\t的成本跟風險。我們新制明定喔既存者應該繳納必要的保管跟維護費所以我要請教院長不用遵照新制的板橋林家我們故宮一年要少掉多少保管跟維護費\n210035\t234750\t新制規定,寄存者應該依據文物寄存審查後定出來的保險價值購買藝術品的中和保險而且故宮是要列為所謂的共同被保險人那院長不用遵守新制的板橋林家906件文物又任何一件出狀況那是不是要叫全民買單以上,問院長你幫我回答一下\n235992\t237634\t等下我會跟你探討這個一百萬你先說為什麼他不遵守新制\n261474\t274570\t那為什麼其他的我說像清水皇家也好中華電信也好要繼續在故宮寄存但都有依照我們所謂的新的規定辦法來重新簽約那為什麼板橋林家不用\n275438\t293588\t跟委員報告因為原來寄存最早原始寄存者的話他是一個人但是一個人的話他原來是希望這個文物永久留在故宮所以他還有一個但書就是說如果以後故宮文物返還大陸的話他的東西還是要留在台灣\n294568\t303973\t所以基本上來講的話他是以一種所謂的捐贈的心態去那現在可以辦理捐贈啊想辦法啊\n314359\t322565\t我們有在想辦法因為未來的故宮寄存的概念的話是以捐贈為原則我知道可是因為六個代表的話沒有辦法有一致的意見\n333060\t337841\t這個你要處理啊不能因為這樣子我們有在處理我們有在處理那你剛剛提到100萬板橋這個謎樣的100萬現在支息後變成118萬這個用途是什麼這等一下我們再來探討可是你看這個投影片上我們看臺北車站的置物櫃就好一個小時20塊來計算如果民眾把私人物品寄放在這裡一年大約20萬就可以買一棟房子\n358387\t358687\t一百一十九萬多\n373769\t383411\t我跟你說一百一十九萬對啊現在一百一十九萬可以幹嘛這個跟委員報告跟委員報告那個經費的話我們是拿在文路修復拿來做一些一些情況之後他資金累積的還是超過那個錢我就說嘛這個如果我們跟全民的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦你看嘛我就說跟台北車站的置物櫃來比就好如果用這樣子來算啦你的一百一十八萬\n399814\t427441\t繼存了55年從1969年我出生那一年開始繼存到現在我們等於一年平均只付了差不多兩萬元所以我覺得這個其實等於是我們故宮的庫房比台北車站的置物櫃還便宜跟委員報告文物的價值並不是說用這個來算因為這些文物的價值不是用這個來算可是我們故宮的庫房包括我們的濕度我們的整個那個要花多少錢來算\n428717\t429037\t要花多少來建制﹖\n439838\t445060\t那好那為什麼說剛剛我就說100萬這個為什麼是那麼迷惘因為他這個用途不明你們跟我的說明也都今天倒倒今年2月故宮送交立法院的書面報告是寫說板橋林家放在故宮的100萬是專門用來維護他們的寄存的私人文物是這樣講\n461306\t477105\t今年5月林宜瑾本辦的文件跟說這一百萬是故宮列於專戶存放一直用來收購文物用途未任意動之那所以未來將來也不會隨著板橋林家如果他們要取回這個私人文物會一併領回對吧\n479575\t487559\t亂七八糟你講話你以為說這是要來維護他們的私人文物今天講這個東西我不會聽到那個100萬的話我的水電我的空調費用的話是一個批次算的我不太可能去跟那個什麼台電說裡面的話大概兩萬塊我用這筆來出所以他大概是一個水庫的概念你的回答再再證明了再再證明了我們幾乎是無常在保存板橋林家的文物\n508649\t515672\t的私人文物那你拿所謂的那所謂的100萬請故宮當管家是這個對價關係嗎還是說我們純然就是所謂的無償無償來保管所以我覺得這個其實你因為無償對價關係對價關係的話基本上是這樣因為原來的記償的時候並沒有這些規定但是\n536082\t542169\t規定是之後的當然就是說法律 可是要與時俱進嘛與時俱進是一種講法另外的話法律不溯及既往那當然也是另外一種規定不溯及既往阿人家其他其他的我說什麼清水皇家中華電信他也過去就答清楚了我們基本上來講反正你對於板橋林家的特殊這個部分我一定追究到底你要給我說明清楚\n557165\t577738\t因為在這批展覽這批東西的話在故宮展覽有展覽的近百次所以基本上來講的話歷次的展覽都會拿出來展所以並不是說那以前要依法自走依法自走嘛依照所謂的文物保存文物資產保存條例來認定說它是國寶還是古物對不對?是不是?它是不是真的有寫到?它也沒有規定說一定是國寶或重要古物才能寄存其實也沒有\n585723\t602515\t現在新法是這樣你要看清楚喔新法沒有他只是講文化資產價值他沒有講對文化資產價值阿文化資產價值的話就依照這個文化資產保存法來認定文化價值阿有國保有重要古物有一般古物基本上來講的話他就算進了故宮一般古物的話他也既有文資價值\n603940\t617444\t問院長私人文物進來寄存這個程序我覺得是明明有更好更完備的所謂的藏品徵集作業要點可以依循我覺得你就偏偏要開後門這個不是我開的後門這個故宮含有以前的案例反正時間的關係對於板橋私人文物寄存的正當性您今天的回答還是說不出一個所以然所以我覺得這個部分\n630967\t631507\t謝謝林宜瑾委員\n","txt":"蕭院長蕭院長\n委員好故宮文物是台灣的國寶我想也是全人類共享的這個珍貴文化資產所以這個國際觀光客來到故宮我們其實除了有助於台灣的這個旅遊經濟的觀光效益之外其實也要讓世界看到台灣對文化資產的維護跟保存彰顯我國的文化軟實力\n那所以任何故宮所管理的文物不管是管藏或者是寄存我們同樣都要愛護跟重視它在人類文明史上的價值好那文物的價值是一回事那我國中央部會公開向人民負責的態度又是一回事在民主法治的台灣兩者互相獨立而且一樣重要\n這個會期是預算會期所以我要請蕭院長待會你務必要拿回負責任的態度面對納稅人說清楚故宮跟既存的私人文物特別是超過半世紀紙幣一甲子的板橋林家雙方故宮跟板橋林家雙方到底是有什麼樣的權利跟義務首先請院長看這張表\n為什麼所有來故宮寄存的文物就板橋林家的待遇最優惠寄存期滿還有緩衝期緩衝期滿了還要請全民掏腰包幫他們看管文物都不用像中華電信依據新制的作業要點來洽談續存的合約\n人家清水皇家就連要捐贈文物給故宮都要得依新制的作業要點來辦理審查所以現在故宮之所以好不容易擁有一個相對完善合理的所謂的文物寄存的新制度就是在吳密茶院長的任內推動改革的結果改革的核心是什麼改革的核心就是這個寄存制度應該是國家協助私人保護這個文物的制度\n那當私人文物依照文化資產保存法指定為國寶或者是重要文物但他卻無力保存的時候那國家有義務來提供庫房資源來協助那板橋0加906件文物裡頭每一件都是依照文化資產保存法指定的國寶或重要文物嗎?\n那板橋林家有能力收入那麼多的古物那可是他卻不願意花錢自行來保存然後要國家的資源來相助的同時那為什麼這個集體長期存在這個\n我們的故宮那所謂的這個不管是費用問題或怎麼樣問題這個合理性在哪裡讓我們繼續來探討那如果板橋林家不需要用遵守所謂的新制這個產品徵集作業要點的規範那全國人民到底要負擔多少\n的成本跟風險。我們新制明定喔既存者應該繳納必要的保管跟維護費所以我要請教院長不用遵照新制的板橋林家我們故宮一年要少掉多少保管跟維護費\n新制規定,寄存者應該依據文物寄存審查後定出來的保險價值購買藝術品的中和保險而且故宮是要列為所謂的共同被保險人那院長不用遵守新制的板橋林家906件文物又任何一件出狀況那是不是要叫全民買單以上,問院長你幫我回答一下\n等下我會跟你探討這個一百萬你先說為什麼他不遵守新制\n那為什麼其他的我說像清水皇家也好中華電信也好要繼續在故宮寄存但都有依照我們所謂的新的規定辦法來重新簽約那為什麼板橋林家不用\n跟委員報告因為原來寄存最早原始寄存者的話他是一個人但是一個人的話他原來是希望這個文物永久留在故宮所以他還有一個但書就是說如果以後故宮文物返還大陸的話他的東西還是要留在台灣\n所以基本上來講的話他是以一種所謂的捐贈的心態去那現在可以辦理捐贈啊想辦法啊\n我們有在想辦法因為未來的故宮寄存的概念的話是以捐贈為原則我知道可是因為六個代表的話沒有辦法有一致的意見\n這個你要處理啊不能因為這樣子我們有在處理我們有在處理那你剛剛提到100萬板橋這個謎樣的100萬現在支息後變成118萬這個用途是什麼這等一下我們再來探討可是你看這個投影片上我們看臺北車站的置物櫃就好一個小時20塊來計算如果民眾把私人物品寄放在這裡一年大約20萬就可以買一棟房子\n一百一十九萬多\n我跟你說一百一十九萬對啊現在一百一十九萬可以幹嘛這個跟委員報告跟委員報告那個經費的話我們是拿在文路修復拿來做一些一些情況之後他資金累積的還是超過那個錢我就說嘛這個如果我們跟全民的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦你看嘛我就說跟台北車站的置物櫃來比就好如果用這樣子來算啦你的一百一十八萬\n繼存了55年從1969年我出生那一年開始繼存到現在我們等於一年平均只付了差不多兩萬元所以我覺得這個其實等於是我們故宮的庫房比台北車站的置物櫃還便宜跟委員報告文物的價值並不是說用這個來算因為這些文物的價值不是用這個來算可是我們故宮的庫房包括我們的濕度我們的整個那個要花多少錢來算\n要花多少來建制﹖\n那好那為什麼說剛剛我就說100萬這個為什麼是那麼迷惘因為他這個用途不明你們跟我的說明也都今天倒倒今年2月故宮送交立法院的書面報告是寫說板橋林家放在故宮的100萬是專門用來維護他們的寄存的私人文物是這樣講\n今年5月林宜瑾本辦的文件跟說這一百萬是故宮列於專戶存放一直用來收購文物用途未任意動之那所以未來將來也不會隨著板橋林家如果他們要取回這個私人文物會一併領回對吧\n亂七八糟你講話你以為說這是要來維護他們的私人文物今天講這個東西我不會聽到那個100萬的話我的水電我的空調費用的話是一個批次算的我不太可能去跟那個什麼台電說裡面的話大概兩萬塊我用這筆來出所以他大概是一個水庫的概念你的回答再再證明了再再證明了我們幾乎是無常在保存板橋林家的文物\n的私人文物那你拿所謂的那所謂的100萬請故宮當管家是這個對價關係嗎還是說我們純然就是所謂的無償無償來保管所以我覺得這個其實你因為無償對價關係對價關係的話基本上是這樣因為原來的記償的時候並沒有這些規定但是\n規定是之後的當然就是說法律 可是要與時俱進嘛與時俱進是一種講法另外的話法律不溯及既往那當然也是另外一種規定不溯及既往阿人家其他其他的我說什麼清水皇家中華電信他也過去就答清楚了我們基本上來講反正你對於板橋林家的特殊這個部分我一定追究到底你要給我說明清楚\n因為在這批展覽這批東西的話在故宮展覽有展覽的近百次所以基本上來講的話歷次的展覽都會拿出來展所以並不是說那以前要依法自走依法自走嘛依照所謂的文物保存文物資產保存條例來認定說它是國寶還是古物對不對?是不是?它是不是真的有寫到?它也沒有規定說一定是國寶或重要古物才能寄存其實也沒有\n現在新法是這樣你要看清楚喔新法沒有他只是講文化資產價值他沒有講對文化資產價值阿文化資產價值的話就依照這個文化資產保存法來認定文化價值阿有國保有重要古物有一般古物基本上來講的話他就算進了故宮一般古物的話他也既有文資價值\n問院長私人文物進來寄存這個程序我覺得是明明有更好更完備的所謂的藏品徵集作業要點可以依循我覺得你就偏偏要開後門這個不是我開的後門這個故宮含有以前的案例反正時間的關係對於板橋私人文物寄存的正當性您今天的回答還是說不出一個所以然所以我覺得這個部分\n謝謝林宜瑾委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.427 --> 00:03.608\n蕭院長蕭院長\n\n00:12.284 --> 00:35.473\n委員好故宮文物是台灣的國寶我想也是全人類共享的這個珍貴文化資產所以這個國際觀光客來到故宮我們其實除了有助於台灣的這個旅遊經濟的觀光效益之外其實也要讓世界看到台灣對文化資產的維護跟保存彰顯我國的文化軟實力\n\n00:36.613 --> 00:57.710\n那所以任何故宮所管理的文物不管是管藏或者是寄存我們同樣都要愛護跟重視它在人類文明史上的價值好那文物的價值是一回事那我國中央部會公開向人民負責的態度又是一回事在民主法治的台灣兩者互相獨立而且一樣重要\n\n01:01.373 --> 01:26.395\n這個會期是預算會期所以我要請蕭院長待會你務必要拿回負責任的態度面對納稅人說清楚故宮跟既存的私人文物特別是超過半世紀紙幣一甲子的板橋林家雙方故宮跟板橋林家雙方到底是有什麼樣的權利跟義務首先請院長看這張表\n\n01:27.576 --> 01:44.292\n為什麼所有來故宮寄存的文物就板橋林家的待遇最優惠寄存期滿還有緩衝期緩衝期滿了還要請全民掏腰包幫他們看管文物都不用像中華電信依據新制的作業要點來洽談續存的合約\n\n01:46.954 --> 02:15.655\n人家清水皇家就連要捐贈文物給故宮都要得依新制的作業要點來辦理審查所以現在故宮之所以好不容易擁有一個相對完善合理的所謂的文物寄存的新制度就是在吳密茶院長的任內推動改革的結果改革的核心是什麼改革的核心就是這個寄存制度應該是國家協助私人保護這個文物的制度\n\n02:16.095 --> 02:38.872\n那當私人文物依照文化資產保存法指定為國寶或者是重要文物但他卻無力保存的時候那國家有義務來提供庫房資源來協助那板橋0加906件文物裡頭每一件都是依照文化資產保存法指定的國寶或重要文物嗎?\n\n02:39.733 --> 02:50.845\n那板橋林家有能力收入那麼多的古物那可是他卻不願意花錢自行來保存然後要國家的資源來相助的同時那為什麼這個集體長期存在這個\n\n02:54.989 --> 03:12.547\n我們的故宮那所謂的這個不管是費用問題或怎麼樣問題這個合理性在哪裡讓我們繼續來探討那如果板橋林家不需要用遵守所謂的新制這個產品徵集作業要點的規範那全國人民到底要負擔多少\n\n03:13.328 --> 03:28.775\n的成本跟風險。我們新制明定喔既存者應該繳納必要的保管跟維護費所以我要請教院長不用遵照新制的板橋林家我們故宮一年要少掉多少保管跟維護費\n\n03:30.035 --> 03:54.750\n新制規定,寄存者應該依據文物寄存審查後定出來的保險價值購買藝術品的中和保險而且故宮是要列為所謂的共同被保險人那院長不用遵守新制的板橋林家906件文物又任何一件出狀況那是不是要叫全民買單以上,問院長你幫我回答一下\n\n03:55.992 --> 03:57.634\n等下我會跟你探討這個一百萬你先說為什麼他不遵守新制\n\n04:21.474 --> 04:34.570\n那為什麼其他的我說像清水皇家也好中華電信也好要繼續在故宮寄存但都有依照我們所謂的新的規定辦法來重新簽約那為什麼板橋林家不用\n\n04:35.438 --> 04:53.588\n跟委員報告因為原來寄存最早原始寄存者的話他是一個人但是一個人的話他原來是希望這個文物永久留在故宮所以他還有一個但書就是說如果以後故宮文物返還大陸的話他的東西還是要留在台灣\n\n04:54.568 --> 05:03.973\n所以基本上來講的話他是以一種所謂的捐贈的心態去那現在可以辦理捐贈啊想辦法啊\n\n05:14.359 --> 05:22.565\n我們有在想辦法因為未來的故宮寄存的概念的話是以捐贈為原則我知道可是因為六個代表的話沒有辦法有一致的意見\n\n05:33.060 --> 05:37.841\n這個你要處理啊不能因為這樣子我們有在處理我們有在處理那你剛剛提到100萬板橋這個謎樣的100萬現在支息後變成118萬這個用途是什麼這等一下我們再來探討可是你看這個投影片上我們看臺北車站的置物櫃就好一個小時20塊來計算如果民眾把私人物品寄放在這裡一年大約20萬就可以買一棟房子\n\n05:58.387 --> 05:58.687\n一百一十九萬多\n\n06:13.769 --> 06:23.411\n我跟你說一百一十九萬對啊現在一百一十九萬可以幹嘛這個跟委員報告跟委員報告那個經費的話我們是拿在文路修復拿來做一些一些情況之後他資金累積的還是超過那個錢我就說嘛這個如果我們跟全民的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦你看嘛我就說跟台北車站的置物櫃來比就好如果用這樣子來算啦你的一百一十八萬\n\n06:39.814 --> 07:07.441\n繼存了55年從1969年我出生那一年開始繼存到現在我們等於一年平均只付了差不多兩萬元所以我覺得這個其實等於是我們故宮的庫房比台北車站的置物櫃還便宜跟委員報告文物的價值並不是說用這個來算因為這些文物的價值不是用這個來算可是我們故宮的庫房包括我們的濕度我們的整個那個要花多少錢來算\n\n07:08.717 --> 07:09.037\n要花多少來建制﹖\n\n07:19.838 --> 07:25.060\n那好那為什麼說剛剛我就說100萬這個為什麼是那麼迷惘因為他這個用途不明你們跟我的說明也都今天倒倒今年2月故宮送交立法院的書面報告是寫說板橋林家放在故宮的100萬是專門用來維護他們的寄存的私人文物是這樣講\n\n07:41.306 --> 07:57.105\n今年5月林宜瑾本辦的文件跟說這一百萬是故宮列於專戶存放一直用來收購文物用途未任意動之那所以未來將來也不會隨著板橋林家如果他們要取回這個私人文物會一併領回對吧\n\n07:59.575 --> 08:07.559\n亂七八糟你講話你以為說這是要來維護他們的私人文物今天講這個東西我不會聽到那個100萬的話我的水電我的空調費用的話是一個批次算的我不太可能去跟那個什麼台電說裡面的話大概兩萬塊我用這筆來出所以他大概是一個水庫的概念你的回答再再證明了再再證明了我們幾乎是無常在保存板橋林家的文物\n\n08:28.649 --> 08:35.672\n的私人文物那你拿所謂的那所謂的100萬請故宮當管家是這個對價關係嗎還是說我們純然就是所謂的無償無償來保管所以我覺得這個其實你因為無償對價關係對價關係的話基本上是這樣因為原來的記償的時候並沒有這些規定但是\n\n08:56.082 --> 09:02.169\n規定是之後的當然就是說法律可是要與時俱進嘛與時俱進是一種講法另外的話法律不溯及既往那當然也是另外一種規定不溯及既往阿人家其他其他的我說什麼清水皇家中華電信他也過去就答清楚了我們基本上來講反正你對於板橋林家的特殊這個部分我一定追究到底你要給我說明清楚\n\n09:17.165 --> 09:37.738\n因為在這批展覽這批東西的話在故宮展覽有展覽的近百次所以基本上來講的話歷次的展覽都會拿出來展所以並不是說那以前要依法自走依法自走嘛依照所謂的文物保存文物資產保存條例來認定說它是國寶還是古物對不對?是不是?它是不是真的有寫到?它也沒有規定說一定是國寶或重要古物才能寄存其實也沒有\n\n09:45.723 --> 10:02.515\n現在新法是這樣你要看清楚喔新法沒有他只是講文化資產價值他沒有講對文化資產價值阿文化資產價值的話就依照這個文化資產保存法來認定文化價值阿有國保有重要古物有一般古物基本上來講的話他就算進了故宮一般古物的話他也既有文資價值\n\n10:03.940 --> 10:17.444\n問院長私人文物進來寄存這個程序我覺得是明明有更好更完備的所謂的藏品徵集作業要點可以依循我覺得你就偏偏要開後門這個不是我開的後門這個故宮含有以前的案例反正時間的關係對於板橋私人文物寄存的正當性您今天的回答還是說不出一個所以然所以我覺得這個部分\n\n10:30.967 --> 10:31.507\n謝謝林宜瑾委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.427,"end":3.608,"text":"蕭院長蕭院長"},{"start":12.284,"end":35.473,"text":"委員好故宮文物是台灣的國寶我想也是全人類共享的這個珍貴文化資產所以這個國際觀光客來到故宮我們其實除了有助於台灣的這個旅遊經濟的觀光效益之外其實也要讓世界看到台灣對文化資產的維護跟保存彰顯我國的文化軟實力"},{"start":36.613,"end":57.71,"text":"那所以任何故宮所管理的文物不管是管藏或者是寄存我們同樣都要愛護跟重視它在人類文明史上的價值好那文物的價值是一回事那我國中央部會公開向人民負責的態度又是一回事在民主法治的台灣兩者互相獨立而且一樣重要"},{"start":61.373,"end":86.395,"text":"這個會期是預算會期所以我要請蕭院長待會你務必要拿回負責任的態度面對納稅人說清楚故宮跟既存的私人文物特別是超過半世紀紙幣一甲子的板橋林家雙方故宮跟板橋林家雙方到底是有什麼樣的權利跟義務首先請院長看這張表"},{"start":87.576,"end":104.292,"text":"為什麼所有來故宮寄存的文物就板橋林家的待遇最優惠寄存期滿還有緩衝期緩衝期滿了還要請全民掏腰包幫他們看管文物都不用像中華電信依據新制的作業要點來洽談續存的合約"},{"start":106.954,"end":135.655,"text":"人家清水皇家就連要捐贈文物給故宮都要得依新制的作業要點來辦理審查所以現在故宮之所以好不容易擁有一個相對完善合理的所謂的文物寄存的新制度就是在吳密茶院長的任內推動改革的結果改革的核心是什麼改革的核心就是這個寄存制度應該是國家協助私人保護這個文物的制度"},{"start":136.095,"end":158.872,"text":"那當私人文物依照文化資產保存法指定為國寶或者是重要文物但他卻無力保存的時候那國家有義務來提供庫房資源來協助那板橋0加906件文物裡頭每一件都是依照文化資產保存法指定的國寶或重要文物嗎?"},{"start":159.733,"end":170.845,"text":"那板橋林家有能力收入那麼多的古物那可是他卻不願意花錢自行來保存然後要國家的資源來相助的同時那為什麼這個集體長期存在這個"},{"start":174.989,"end":192.547,"text":"我們的故宮那所謂的這個不管是費用問題或怎麼樣問題這個合理性在哪裡讓我們繼續來探討那如果板橋林家不需要用遵守所謂的新制這個產品徵集作業要點的規範那全國人民到底要負擔多少"},{"start":193.328,"end":208.775,"text":"的成本跟風險。我們新制明定喔既存者應該繳納必要的保管跟維護費所以我要請教院長不用遵照新制的板橋林家我們故宮一年要少掉多少保管跟維護費"},{"start":210.035,"end":234.75,"text":"新制規定,寄存者應該依據文物寄存審查後定出來的保險價值購買藝術品的中和保險而且故宮是要列為所謂的共同被保險人那院長不用遵守新制的板橋林家906件文物又任何一件出狀況那是不是要叫全民買單以上,問院長你幫我回答一下"},{"start":235.992,"end":237.634,"text":"等下我會跟你探討這個一百萬你先說為什麼他不遵守新制"},{"start":261.474,"end":274.57,"text":"那為什麼其他的我說像清水皇家也好中華電信也好要繼續在故宮寄存但都有依照我們所謂的新的規定辦法來重新簽約那為什麼板橋林家不用"},{"start":275.438,"end":293.588,"text":"跟委員報告因為原來寄存最早原始寄存者的話他是一個人但是一個人的話他原來是希望這個文物永久留在故宮所以他還有一個但書就是說如果以後故宮文物返還大陸的話他的東西還是要留在台灣"},{"start":294.568,"end":303.973,"text":"所以基本上來講的話他是以一種所謂的捐贈的心態去那現在可以辦理捐贈啊想辦法啊"},{"start":314.359,"end":322.565,"text":"我們有在想辦法因為未來的故宮寄存的概念的話是以捐贈為原則我知道可是因為六個代表的話沒有辦法有一致的意見"},{"start":333.06,"end":337.841,"text":"這個你要處理啊不能因為這樣子我們有在處理我們有在處理那你剛剛提到100萬板橋這個謎樣的100萬現在支息後變成118萬這個用途是什麼這等一下我們再來探討可是你看這個投影片上我們看臺北車站的置物櫃就好一個小時20塊來計算如果民眾把私人物品寄放在這裡一年大約20萬就可以買一棟房子"},{"start":358.387,"end":358.687,"text":"一百一十九萬多"},{"start":373.769,"end":383.411,"text":"我跟你說一百一十九萬對啊現在一百一十九萬可以幹嘛這個跟委員報告跟委員報告那個經費的話我們是拿在文路修復拿來做一些一些情況之後他資金累積的還是超過那個錢我就說嘛這個如果我們跟全民的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦你看嘛我就說跟台北車站的置物櫃來比就好如果用這樣子來算啦你的一百一十八萬"},{"start":399.814,"end":427.441,"text":"繼存了55年從1969年我出生那一年開始繼存到現在我們等於一年平均只付了差不多兩萬元所以我覺得這個其實等於是我們故宮的庫房比台北車站的置物櫃還便宜跟委員報告文物的價值並不是說用這個來算因為這些文物的價值不是用這個來算可是我們故宮的庫房包括我們的濕度我們的整個那個要花多少錢來算"},{"start":428.717,"end":429.037,"text":"要花多少來建制﹖"},{"start":439.838,"end":445.06,"text":"那好那為什麼說剛剛我就說100萬這個為什麼是那麼迷惘因為他這個用途不明你們跟我的說明也都今天倒倒今年2月故宮送交立法院的書面報告是寫說板橋林家放在故宮的100萬是專門用來維護他們的寄存的私人文物是這樣講"},{"start":461.306,"end":477.105,"text":"今年5月林宜瑾本辦的文件跟說這一百萬是故宮列於專戶存放一直用來收購文物用途未任意動之那所以未來將來也不會隨著板橋林家如果他們要取回這個私人文物會一併領回對吧"},{"start":479.575,"end":487.559,"text":"亂七八糟你講話你以為說這是要來維護他們的私人文物今天講這個東西我不會聽到那個100萬的話我的水電我的空調費用的話是一個批次算的我不太可能去跟那個什麼台電說裡面的話大概兩萬塊我用這筆來出所以他大概是一個水庫的概念你的回答再再證明了再再證明了我們幾乎是無常在保存板橋林家的文物"},{"start":508.649,"end":515.672,"text":"的私人文物那你拿所謂的那所謂的100萬請故宮當管家是這個對價關係嗎還是說我們純然就是所謂的無償無償來保管所以我覺得這個其實你因為無償對價關係對價關係的話基本上是這樣因為原來的記償的時候並沒有這些規定但是"},{"start":536.082,"end":542.169,"text":"規定是之後的當然就是說法律 可是要與時俱進嘛與時俱進是一種講法另外的話法律不溯及既往那當然也是另外一種規定不溯及既往阿人家其他其他的我說什麼清水皇家中華電信他也過去就答清楚了我們基本上來講反正你對於板橋林家的特殊這個部分我一定追究到底你要給我說明清楚"},{"start":557.165,"end":577.738,"text":"因為在這批展覽這批東西的話在故宮展覽有展覽的近百次所以基本上來講的話歷次的展覽都會拿出來展所以並不是說那以前要依法自走依法自走嘛依照所謂的文物保存文物資產保存條例來認定說它是國寶還是古物對不對?是不是?它是不是真的有寫到?它也沒有規定說一定是國寶或重要古物才能寄存其實也沒有"},{"start":585.723,"end":602.515,"text":"現在新法是這樣你要看清楚喔新法沒有他只是講文化資產價值他沒有講對文化資產價值阿文化資產價值的話就依照這個文化資產保存法來認定文化價值阿有國保有重要古物有一般古物基本上來講的話他就算進了故宮一般古物的話他也既有文資價值"},{"start":603.94,"end":617.444,"text":"問院長私人文物進來寄存這個程序我覺得是明明有更好更完備的所謂的藏品徵集作業要點可以依循我覺得你就偏偏要開後門這個不是我開的後門這個故宮含有以前的案例反正時間的關係對於板橋私人文物寄存的正當性您今天的回答還是說不出一個所以然所以我覺得這個部分"},{"start":630.967,"end":631.507,"text":"謝謝林宜瑾委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":180,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（9時51分）謝謝主席，有請蕭院長。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長好。"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：故宮文物是臺灣的國寶，我想也是全人類共享的珍貴文化資產，所以國際觀光客來到故宮，其實除了有助於臺灣旅遊經濟的觀光效益之外，其實也要讓世界看到臺灣對文化資產的維護跟保存，彰顯我國的文化軟實力，所以任何故宮所管理的文物，不管是館藏或者是寄存，我們同樣都要愛護跟重視它在人類文明史上的價值。好，文物的價值是一回事，我國中央部會公開向人民負責的態度又是一回事。在民主法治的臺灣，兩者互相獨立，而且一樣重要，這個會期是預算會期，所以我要請蕭院長待會務必要拿出負責任的態度，面對納稅人，說清楚故宮跟寄存的私人文物，特別是超過半世紀、直逼一甲子的板橋林家，故宮跟板橋林家雙方到底是有什麼樣的權利跟義務？","首先，我請院長看這張表，為什麼所有來故宮寄存的文物，就板橋林家的待遇最優惠？寄存期滿還有緩衝期，緩衝期滿了，還要請全民掏腰包幫他們看管文物，都不用像中華電信依據新制的作業要點來洽談續存的合約。人家清水黃家就連要捐贈文物給故宮，都得要依新制的作業要點來辦理審查，現在故宮之所以好不容易擁有一個相對完善、合理的文物寄存新制度，就是在吳密察院長任內推動改革的結果，改革的核心是什麼？改革的核心就是這個寄存制度，應該是國家協助私人保護文物的制度，當私人文物依照文化資產保存法被指定為國寶或者是重要文物，他卻無力保存的時候，國家有義務提供庫房資源來協助。","板橋林家的906件文物裡頭，每一件都是依照文化資產保存法指定的國寶或重要文物嗎？板橋林家有能力蒐羅那麼多的古物，可是他卻不願意花錢自行保存，然後要國家的資源來相助，為什麼這個集體、長期存在我們的故宮？不管是費用問題或怎麼樣的問題，這個合理性在哪裡？我們繼續來探討，如果板橋林家不需要遵守所謂的新制──這個藏品徵集作業要點的規範，全國人民到底要負擔多少成本跟風險？我們新制明定寄存者應該繳納必要的保管跟維護費，所以我要請教院長，因為不用遵照新制的板橋林家，我們故宮一年要少掉多少保管跟維護費？新制規定寄存者應該依據文物寄存審查後訂出來的保險價值，購買藝術品的綜合保險，而且故宮是要被列為共同被保險人。院長，不用遵守新制的板橋林家，906件文物有任何一件出狀況，是不是要叫全民買單？以上，院長，你幫我回答一下。"],["蕭院長宗煌：板橋林家的這個寄存案，當然，沒有錯，它很特殊，特殊的原因就是因為它是故宮最早的一個寄存案，然後歷經了幾任的院長，當初他們在寄存的時候捐了100萬元，100萬元的話……"],["林委員宜瑾：等一下我會跟你探討這100萬，你先說為什麼他們不遵守新制？"],["蕭院長宗煌：那時候我記得買房子的話，20萬就可以買一棟房子。"],["林委員宜瑾：他為什麼不遵守新制？為什麼其他的，像清水黃家也好，中華電信也好，要繼續在故宮寄存，都有依照我們所謂新的規定、辦法來重新簽約，為什麼板橋林家不用？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，因為最早的原始寄存者是一個人，他原來是希望這個文物永久留在故宮，所以他還有一個但書就是如果以後故宮文物返還大陸的話，他的東西還是要留在臺灣，所以基本上來講，他是以一種捐贈的心態去處理這個事情。"],["林委員宜瑾：那就辦理捐贈啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：可是在那個時候並沒有捐贈的一個完善機制。"],["林委員宜瑾：現在可以辦理捐贈啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：現在的話就是因為一家從一個代表人變成六個代表人。"],["林委員宜瑾：想辦法啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們有在想辦法。"],["林委員宜瑾：我們讓他們寄存免錢的啊？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為未來故宮寄存的概念是以捐贈為原則。"],["林委員宜瑾：他如果沒有辦法，就捐給我們故宮，那我們當然就有義務來保存，是不是？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道，可是因為六個代表沒有辦法有一致的意見。"],["林委員宜瑾：這個你要處理啊，不能因為這樣子……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們有在處理。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，你剛剛提到100萬，板橋這個謎樣的100萬，現在孳息後變成118萬，這個用途是什麼，等一下我們再來探討。你看這個投影片，我們看臺北車站的置物櫃就好，1個小時以20塊來計算，如果民眾把私人物品寄放在這裡，1年大約……"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，那時候20萬就可以買一棟房子了。"],["林委員宜瑾：你不要說那個時候嘛，現在還是100萬啊！孳息後現在是118萬啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：117萬。"],["林委員宜瑾：當初的100萬，現在有增值嗎？我們現在拿到現鈔還是100萬啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：一百一十九萬多。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那我跟你說……119萬，對啊！現在的119萬可以幹嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，那個經費的話，我們是拿來做文物修復，他孳息累計後還是超過那個錢。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，等一下我再跟你探討，我就說嘛，這個如果我們跟全國的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦！你看嘛，我就說跟臺北車站的置物櫃比就好，如果用這樣子來算，你的118萬，寄存了55年，從1969年、我出生那一年開始寄存到現在，我們等於一年平均只付了差不多2萬元，所以我覺得啦，這個其實等於是我們故宮的庫房，比臺北車站的置物櫃還便宜。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，文物的價值並不是用這個來算，因為這些文物在故宮裡面可以做研究，可以做展示。"],["林委員宜瑾：文物的價值不是用這個來算，可是我們故宮的庫房，包括我們的溼度，我們整個要花多少錢來建置？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為這些文物其實提供了很好的一個研究跟展示的材料，我們每次的展都會應用到這些文物。"],["林委員宜瑾：是啊，我們的維護、我們的預算花在那裡，要花多少錢？好，剛剛我就說100萬為什麼那麼謎樣，因為它真的用途不明，你們給我的說明也都顛顛倒倒。今年2月故宮送交立法院的書面報告是寫說：板橋林家放在故宮的100萬，是專門用來維護他們寄存的私人文物，是這樣講的。今年5月，你們給本辦的文件又說：這100萬是故宮列於專戶存放，一直是作為收購文物用途，未任意動支。所以未來如果板橋林家要取回這些私人文物，也不會隨著一併領回，對嘛！你們話說的亂七八糟，2月說這是要來維護他們的私人文物，現在又說這個東西我們不會動。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，那個100萬的話，我們的水電、空調費用是以批次算的，我們不太可能去跟台電說裡面大概有2萬塊用這筆錢來出，所以它大概是一個水庫的概念。"],["林委員宜瑾：你的回答在在證明了，我們幾乎是無償在保存板橋林家的私人文物，拿所謂的100萬請故宮當管家嗎？是這個對價關係嗎？還是我們純然就是所謂的無償保管？我覺得這部分你必須跟外界說明清楚。"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為無償……對價關係的話，基本上是這樣，原來寄藏的時候並沒有這些規定，規定是之後的……"],["林委員宜瑾：對啊！可是要與時俱進嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然就是法律……與時俱進是一種講法，另外，法律不溯及既往，當然也是另外一種……"],["林委員宜瑾：不溯及既往？那麼其他的，像清水黃家、中華電信，他們也是過去就寄存啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講……"],["林委員宜瑾：反正對於板橋林家特殊的部分，我一定追究到底，你要給我說明清楚……"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為這批展覽……"],["林委員宜瑾：時間到了，我跟你說……"],["蕭院長宗煌：這批東西在故宮展覽近百次，基本上來講，歷次的展覽都會拿出來展，所以並不是說……"],["林委員宜瑾：那一切要依法制走嘛！它有依照所謂的文物資產保存法認定是國寶還是古物，對不對？不是嗎？它真的每一項都那麼有價值嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：也沒有規定一定是國寶或重要古物才能寄存，其實也沒有。"],["林委員宜瑾：現在新法就是這樣，你要看清楚喔！"],["蕭院長宗煌：新法沒有，它只是講文化資產價值，沒有講……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，文化資產價值啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：文化資產價值，其中有國寶……"],["林委員宜瑾：就依照文化資產保存法來認定文化價值啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，有國寶，有重要古物，有一般古物，基本上，就算進了故宮的一般古物，也是具有文資價值。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長，私人文物進來寄存的程序，明明有更好、更完備的所謂藏品徵集作業要點可以依循，你卻偏偏要開後門……"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個不是我開的後門，這是故宮很久以前的案例。"],["林委員宜瑾：採取不存在、毫無章法的所謂舊制！時間關係，對於板橋私人文物寄存的正當性，你今天的回答還是說不出個所以然，所以我覺得這個部分……"],["蕭院長宗煌：它有一個歷史的脈絡跟因緣……"],["林委員宜瑾：請你用書面跟本席說清楚，也要跟全院的委員交代清楚。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["主席：好，謝謝林宜瑾委員。","接下來有請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張雅琳","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳冠廷","吳春城"],"page_start":383,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00006"}}}