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00:01:36,138\n則大退休草所帶來的衝擊所以在這邊我比較能正確去理解的是嬰兒草世代老化的生活面貌才知道我們需要什麼樣的法令來促進我們的整體高齡者生活可是這個法今天提出來這個法\n\n6\n00:01:36,718 --> 00:01:59,465\n本來我一直認為他是一個倡議工具然後突然拉到我們要來做實質審查的時候我們必須要好好的去討論這個法案有沒有具備法律的一個條件首先我先請教一下經濟部我剛剛前面提的所以大退休潮的趨勢是學界提出來的研究項目\n\n7\n00:02:00,385 --> 00:02:28,388\n在產業的實務上逐年越來越多借齡退休者,這個是不是部分產業缺工的原因之一?這個也是部分,第一個少子化,第二個也是那個大退休潮,這也是其中的原因之一。好,那次長我再問你,經濟部有沒有針對緩緩退休,退休後再就業,避免逼退中高齡就業主管這些事情,提出產業的輔導辦法,特別是創新的便民做法還是把這項業務全部丟給勞動部?\n\n8\n00:02:29,189 --> 00:02:29,449\n謝謝次長那在衛福部這邊\n\n9\n00:02:54,700 --> 00:03:19,159\n本法原來這個草案提出來的時候第二條跟第三項跟第四條推動壯世代的產業發展因為過去我聽過吳委員在講他的壯世代產業是認為我們的55歲以上的事實上非常有錢所以可以發展一些壯世代的產業來讓他們去做消費想問一下就是我們的衛福部你認為這樣子\n\n10\n00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:45,461\n到底齁我先問經濟部你認為什麼是壯世代產業壯世代產業應該是我覺得不應該是我們經濟部來定義啦應該我們認為說只要第一個要有經濟的自主能力而且他要能夠有生產力那你們認為呢可行性評估結果如何有可能嗎\n\n11\n00:03:47,122 --> 00:04:12,893\n就目前今天這個法令來講是如果就定義只有55歲以上這個範圍是比較不是那麼清楚因為正如剛剛很多委員講的如果沒有把一個上限定下來而且他是不是具有一些本身有自己經濟自主能力那這樣的話如果是要全部透過一些相關的社會福利來那這個應該是會負擔很重\n\n12\n00:04:15,654 --> 00:04:31,682\n在衛福部本席非常擔心退休前後的長輩生活狀況究竟如何?因為朝四代真的像吳委員講的這麼富有嗎?所以想問一下衛福部你們的瞭解是什麼?\n\n13\n00:04:32,827 --> 00:04:59,911\nOK,非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心我想先引用Economist經濟學人今年6月2日造就有篇文章談到相關的問題那這個部分其實事實上戰後因果潮當然就是說他經歷了戰後的一個非常非常黃金年代所以普遍資產來說增加但是其實這裡面的這一個收入來說還是有不均的一個情況另外一個問題它裡面談到一個就是說這一個世代的這一個generation\n\n14\n00:05:00,231 --> 00:05:18,323\n他們雖然累積了財富但是卻不消費其中有很多原因其實事實上是他們對於整個因為平均移民延長所導致的照護上面的這個部分的費用他們的一個擔憂所以說他們只消他們雖然有財富但是不消費所以這個部分呢我們這部分反而是用透過我們長照\n\n15\n00:05:19,424 --> 00:05:45,320\n所以我們從法院審理民事案件當中所得的參考資料來看的話臺灣社會每個月必須要生活費用大概1萬7到2萬3那如果扶弱或者是照顧一人的話就費用會增加一倍所以長輩不會因為退休而大幅免除這些生活上必要開支甚至\n\n16\n00:05:46,180 --> 00:05:58,728\n還會有老老互相照顧跟啃老族現象所以我想問的是國家發展委員會現行人口統計對於扶養比的這兩大指標為扶老比跟扶幼比\n\n17\n00:06:35,068 --> 00:06:51,221\n主席,您是要讓我們問到寶嗎?所以我就真的要占用時間了,因為我才問到一半。不好意思,就是您今天一開始就說要讓我們問到寶了,所以我今天已經請他們上來了。來,衛福部想問一下,就是本法的\n\n18\n00:06:52,142 --> 00:06:52,442\n議員：林月琴\n\n19\n00:07:14,110 --> 00:07:39,706\n提了然後現在又要在這邊提所以有沒有可能會造成民眾誤會精準醫療是為長輩專屬的醫療方法的錯誤認知是的報告委員其實確實有可能會出現這樣的一個疑慮其實我們現在目前已經精準醫療部分我們已經在推動這個部分其實最重要我們也在加強其實最重要是落實的部分的問題所以這邊恐怕如果這樣的話可能也會有跌床架屋的這個疑慮謝謝好\n\n20\n00:07:41,187 --> 00:08:02,667\n再回到貧富問題的話戰後嬰兒潮的真的事實上是得天獨厚比其他世代更富足嗎所以想來問因為現在這邊看到的是2023年我們的勞健保的年金加上勞退的薪資兩筆錢加起來大概每個月才23440塊那相較於必要支出的費用剛好打平所以想來問金管會\n\n21\n00:08:06,060 --> 00:08:18,928\n經濟部兩位都是金融專家在社會保險年金尚未成長到讓高齡者足以普遍生活小康的階段現在是推動高齡者促進消費立法的好時機嗎?\n\n22\n00:08:21,090 --> 00:08:35,291\n委員謝謝委員長,儘管這裡說明一下,事實上整個中高零整每個人的財務狀況真的是不一樣。那當然在這種情況之下,其實儘管我們在提供所有的保險,就是金融服務跟保險商品,這是我們本來就在做的。\n\n23\n00:08:37,253 --> 00:08:50,940\n對,那因為條文裡面確實剛剛有提到就投資剛剛我也有提到投資兩個字啦因為事實上儘管不大適合建議你要去投資相關的標的但商品跟服務這部分是我們可以做到的所以我現在確實掌握數據也是就是40%的確經濟上事上是比較強勢\n\n24\n00:08:53,882 --> 00:08:59,186\n您們有沒有針對本法的第5條的促進投資這一塊,第12條的促進觀光消費做可行性評估?評估的結果是如何?兩位\n\n25\n00:09:16,792 --> 00:09:33,985\n主席,我們儘管的部分應該是在第6條的部分吧,實質就是這個金融的部分的部分,那那一部分的話就剛剛有申吾剛剛跟委員報告,事實上我們現在就有在做所謂的所有的三評跟服務的一個檢視,那裡面條文剛剛有報告說投資那兩個字可能可能投資不到12啦。好,謝謝吼。\n\n26\n00:09:36,187 --> 00:10:02,169\n部長回到你這邊,壯世代那個倡議在平衡老人弱勢形象我覺得很好有正面的訴求當初吳委員講說不要用稱高齡或稱老人我覺得這個我支持可是勞動部今年的這些活動宣傳都聽到壯世代這個稱呼就可以知道當然我也很肯定可是要成為一部專法的話從老人學來看的話太過\n\n27\n00:10:03,370 --> 00:10:03,810\n﹚林月琴\n\n28\n00:10:23,467 --> 00:10:50,115\n已經就是通過已經通過中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進法的第7條的修正那其中本席所提出來的將部分公時的也列為政策推動項目公布後現在目前進度如何是委員就是指那個中高齡者的那個部分公時獎勵有我們那個獎勵已經開始在實施而且推廣那有更進度已經開始有\n\n29\n00:10:50,896 --> 00:10:56,081\n所以你們有沒有發現說今天這次的草案很大部分跟中高齡跟高齡者就業包括第二條的第一項跟中高齡者就業專法的第33條是重疊的\n\n30\n00:11:12,739 --> 00:11:22,106\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n31\n00:11:39,738 --> 00:11:54,886\n兩邊都要去執行嗎?還是又定在另外一個法令裡邊?我剛剛已經報告過了我們對壯世代這個名詞當然他是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念可是他要上綱為法律這個有待商榷我剛剛已經說明過了\n\n32\n00:12:00,188 --> 00:12:18,614\n我們還是維持現行的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這樣的專法架構來進行,大概就足夠了所以高齡者我們當然還是去支持他的生活智力可是所謂生活智力不論是長輩或是身心障礙者能夠尊嚴的過生活這非常的重要,不靠別人照顧\n\n33\n00:12:19,814 --> 00:12:45,214\n所以未來達這個目標的話我們反而需要工具的輔助能夠未來事實上有生活輔具、無障礙空間跟數位金融資訊的可進信媒介的幫助所以想問經濟部跟衛福部如果說壯世代的到底產業是什麼我覺得真的要講應該事實上是我剛剛講的生活輔具產業或無障礙的交通產業或可進信的數位金融資訊產業所以不知道\n\n34\n00:12:49,125 --> 00:12:53,339\n這個未來不管事實上是衛福部或者事實上是經濟部\n\n35\n00:12:54,676 --> 00:13:23,986\n那能不能夠去協力去推動這個我們可以來推動因為我現在講的我們現在目前在行政院配合的角色是這個壯世代是具有經濟還有工作能力的那這個我們當然本來就是他有消費能力我們怎麼去創造他的消費的環境還有就是他在工作的時候他畢竟是已經有一定的年紀那我們怎麼去讓他的工作科技的方法讓他工作做得更輕鬆那這一部分是我們目前已經有在執行了\n\n36\n00:13:24,346 --> 00:13:48,002\n那衛福部呢?是,包括委員,我想跟剛剛經濟部一樣,在有關於生活輔具跟無障礙空間,其實很多相關的related的這個產業,我們其實都已經存在,那我們也會持續再來推動。現有的就基本上應該已經足夠,成如剛剛何部長剛剛也有說到,那這個我們會來持續來推動。好,請經濟部衛福部能夠召集相關部會共同\n\n37\n00:13:48,963 --> 00:13:48,983\n謝謝委員\n\n38\n00:14:17,087 --> 00:14:25,804\n好謝謝謝謝林委員我想因為各個什麼老人福利法中高齡本身我們行政單位的名稱也是破碎\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t15969\t李建的次長還有經濟部的林錦章次長還有我們的經管會的林志憲處長還有國家發展委員會的彭麗珮副主委\n21938\t21978\t議員吳春城\n40998\t41238\t李慧琴議員\n61872\t61892\t蘇維欣﹗\n81490\t96138\t則大退休草所帶來的衝擊所以在這邊我比較能正確去理解的是嬰兒草世代老化的生活面貌才知道我們需要什麼樣的法令來促進我們的整體高齡者生活可是這個法今天提出來這個法\n96718\t119465\t本來我一直認為他是一個倡議工具然後突然拉到我們要來做實質審查的時候我們必須要好好的去討論這個法案有沒有具備法律的一個條件首先我先請教一下經濟部我剛剛前面提的所以大退休潮的趨勢是學界提出來的研究項目\n120385\t148388\t在產業的實務上逐年越來越多借齡退休者,這個是不是部分產業缺工的原因之一?這個也是部分,第一個少子化,第二個也是那個大退休潮,這也是其中的原因之一。好,那次長我再問你,經濟部有沒有針對緩緩退休,退休後再就業,避免逼退中高齡就業主管這些事情,提出產業的輔導辦法,特別是創新的便民做法還是把這項業務全部丟給勞動部?\n149189\t149449\t謝謝次長那在衛福部這邊\n174700\t199159\t本法原來這個草案提出來的時候第二條跟第三項跟第四條推動壯世代的產業發展因為過去我聽過吳委員在講他的壯世代產業是認為我們的55歲以上的事實上非常有錢所以可以發展一些壯世代的產業來讓他們去做消費想問一下就是我們的衛福部你認為這樣子\n201000\t225461\t到底齁我先問經濟部你認為什麼是壯世代產業壯世代產業應該是我覺得不應該是我們經濟部來定義啦應該我們認為說只要第一個要有經濟的自主能力而且他要能夠有生產力那你們認為呢可行性評估結果如何有可能嗎\n227122\t252893\t就目前今天這個法令來講是如果就定義只有55歲以上這個範圍是比較不是那麼清楚因為正如剛剛很多委員講的如果沒有把一個上限定下來而且他是不是具有一些本身有自己經濟自主能力那這樣的話如果是要全部透過一些相關的社會福利來那這個應該是會負擔很重\n255654\t271682\t在衛福部本席非常擔心退休前後的長輩生活狀況究竟如何?因為朝四代真的像吳委員講的這麼富有嗎?所以想問一下衛福部你們的瞭解是什麼?\n272827\t299911\tOK,非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心我想先引用Economist經濟學人今年6月2日造就有篇文章談到相關的問題那這個部分其實事實上戰後因果潮當然就是說他經歷了戰後的一個非常非常黃金年代所以普遍資產來說增加但是其實這裡面的這一個收入來說還是有不均的一個情況另外一個問題它裡面談到一個就是說這一個世代的這一個generation\n300231\t318323\t他們雖然累積了財富但是卻不消費其中有很多原因其實事實上是他們對於整個因為平均移民延長所導致的照護上面的這個部分的費用他們的一個擔憂所以說他們只消他們雖然有財富但是不消費所以這個部分呢我們這部分反而是用透過我們長照\n319424\t345320\t所以我們從法院審理民事案件當中所得的參考資料來看的話臺灣社會每個月必須要生活費用大概1萬7到2萬3那如果扶弱或者是照顧一人的話就費用會增加一倍所以長輩不會因為退休而大幅免除這些生活上必要開支甚至\n346180\t358728\t還會有老老互相照顧跟啃老族現象所以我想問的是國家發展委員會現行人口統計對於扶養比的這兩大指標為扶老比跟扶幼比\n359172\t386032\t呃﹗\n395068\t411221\t主席,您是要讓我們問到寶嗎?所以我就真的要占用時間了,因為我才問到一半。不好意思,就是您今天一開始就說要讓我們問到寶了,所以我今天已經請他們上來了。來,衛福部想問一下,就是本法的\n412142\t412442\t議員：林月琴\n434110\t459706\t提了然後現在又要在這邊提所以有沒有可能會造成民眾誤會精準醫療是為長輩專屬的醫療方法的錯誤認知是的報告委員其實確實有可能會出現這樣的一個疑慮其實我們現在目前已經精準醫療部分我們已經在推動這個部分其實最重要我們也在加強其實最重要是落實的部分的問題所以這邊恐怕如果這樣的話可能也會有跌床架屋的這個疑慮謝謝好\n461187\t482667\t再回到貧富問題的話戰後嬰兒潮的真的事實上是得天獨厚比其他世代更富足嗎所以想來問因為現在這邊看到的是2023年我們的勞健保的年金加上勞退的薪資兩筆錢加起來大概每個月才23440塊那相較於必要支出的費用剛好打平所以想來問金管會\n486060\t498928\t經濟部兩位都是金融專家在社會保險年金尚未成長到讓高齡者足以普遍生活小康的階段現在是推動高齡者促進消費立法的好時機嗎?\n501090\t515291\t委員謝謝委員長,儘管這裡說明一下,事實上整個中高零整每個人的財務狀況真的是不一樣。那當然在這種情況之下,其實儘管我們在提供所有的保險,就是金融服務跟保險商品,這是我們本來就在做的。\n517253\t530940\t對,那因為條文裡面確實剛剛有提到就投資剛剛我也有提到投資兩個字啦因為事實上儘管不大適合建議你要去投資相關的標的但商品跟服務這部分是我們可以做到的所以我現在確實掌握數據也是就是40%的確經濟上事上是比較強勢\n533882\t539186\t您們有沒有針對本法的第5條的促進投資這一塊,第12條的促進觀光消費做可行性評估?評估的結果是如何?兩位\n556792\t573985\t主席,我們儘管的部分應該是在第6條的部分吧,實質就是這個金融的部分的部分,那那一部分的話就剛剛有申吾剛剛跟委員報告,事實上我們現在就有在做所謂的所有的三評跟服務的一個檢視,那裡面條文剛剛有報告說投資那兩個字可能可能投資不到12啦。好,謝謝吼。\n576187\t602169\t部長回到你這邊,壯世代那個倡議在平衡老人弱勢形象我覺得很好有正面的訴求當初吳委員講說不要用稱高齡或稱老人我覺得這個我支持可是勞動部今年的這些活動宣傳都聽到壯世代這個稱呼就可以知道當然我也很肯定可是要成為一部專法的話從老人學來看的話太過\n603370\t603810\t﹚林月琴\n623467\t650115\t已經就是通過已經通過中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進法的第7條的修正那其中本席所提出來的將部分公時的也列為政策推動項目公布後現在目前進度如何是委員就是指那個中高齡者的那個部分公時獎勵有我們那個獎勵已經開始在實施而且推廣那有更進度已經開始有\n650896\t656081\t所以你們有沒有發現說今天這次的草案很大部分跟中高齡跟高齡者就業包括第二條的第一項跟中高齡者就業專法的第33條是重疊的\n672739\t682106\t新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n699738\t714886\t兩邊都要去執行嗎?還是又定在另外一個法令裡邊?我剛剛已經報告過了我們對壯世代這個名詞當然他是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念可是他要上綱為法律這個有待商榷我剛剛已經說明過了\n720188\t738614\t我們還是維持現行的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這樣的專法架構來進行,大概就足夠了所以高齡者我們當然還是去支持他的生活智力可是所謂生活智力不論是長輩或是身心障礙者能夠尊嚴的過生活這非常的重要,不靠別人照顧\n739814\t765214\t所以未來達這個目標的話我們反而需要工具的輔助能夠未來事實上有生活輔具、無障礙空間跟數位金融資訊的可進信媒介的幫助所以想問經濟部跟衛福部如果說壯世代的到底產業是什麼我覺得真的要講應該事實上是我剛剛講的生活輔具產業或無障礙的交通產業或可進信的數位金融資訊產業所以不知道\n769125\t773339\t這個未來不管事實上是衛福部或者事實上是經濟部\n774676\t803986\t那能不能夠去協力去推動這個我們可以來推動因為我現在講的我們現在目前在行政院配合的角色是這個壯世代是具有經濟還有工作能力的那這個我們當然本來就是他有消費能力我們怎麼去創造他的消費的環境還有就是他在工作的時候他畢竟是已經有一定的年紀那我們怎麼去讓他的工作科技的方法讓他工作做得更輕鬆那這一部分是我們目前已經有在執行了\n804346\t828002\t那衛福部呢?是,包括委員,我想跟剛剛經濟部一樣,在有關於生活輔具跟無障礙空間,其實很多相關的related的這個產業,我們其實都已經存在,那我們也會持續再來推動。現有的就基本上應該已經足夠,成如剛剛何部長剛剛也有說到,那這個我們會來持續來推動。好,請經濟部衛福部能夠召集相關部會共同\n828963\t828983\t謝謝委員\n857087\t865804\t好謝謝謝謝林委員我想因為各個什麼老人福利法中高齡本身我們行政單位的名稱也是破碎\n","txt":"李建的次長還有經濟部的林錦章次長還有我們的經管會的林志憲處長還有國家發展委員會的彭麗珮副主委\n議員吳春城\n李慧琴議員\n蘇維欣﹗\n則大退休草所帶來的衝擊所以在這邊我比較能正確去理解的是嬰兒草世代老化的生活面貌才知道我們需要什麼樣的法令來促進我們的整體高齡者生活可是這個法今天提出來這個法\n本來我一直認為他是一個倡議工具然後突然拉到我們要來做實質審查的時候我們必須要好好的去討論這個法案有沒有具備法律的一個條件首先我先請教一下經濟部我剛剛前面提的所以大退休潮的趨勢是學界提出來的研究項目\n在產業的實務上逐年越來越多借齡退休者,這個是不是部分產業缺工的原因之一?這個也是部分,第一個少子化,第二個也是那個大退休潮,這也是其中的原因之一。好,那次長我再問你,經濟部有沒有針對緩緩退休,退休後再就業,避免逼退中高齡就業主管這些事情,提出產業的輔導辦法,特別是創新的便民做法還是把這項業務全部丟給勞動部?\n謝謝次長那在衛福部這邊\n本法原來這個草案提出來的時候第二條跟第三項跟第四條推動壯世代的產業發展因為過去我聽過吳委員在講他的壯世代產業是認為我們的55歲以上的事實上非常有錢所以可以發展一些壯世代的產業來讓他們去做消費想問一下就是我們的衛福部你認為這樣子\n到底齁我先問經濟部你認為什麼是壯世代產業壯世代產業應該是我覺得不應該是我們經濟部來定義啦應該我們認為說只要第一個要有經濟的自主能力而且他要能夠有生產力那你們認為呢可行性評估結果如何有可能嗎\n就目前今天這個法令來講是如果就定義只有55歲以上這個範圍是比較不是那麼清楚因為正如剛剛很多委員講的如果沒有把一個上限定下來而且他是不是具有一些本身有自己經濟自主能力那這樣的話如果是要全部透過一些相關的社會福利來那這個應該是會負擔很重\n在衛福部本席非常擔心退休前後的長輩生活狀況究竟如何?因為朝四代真的像吳委員講的這麼富有嗎?所以想問一下衛福部你們的瞭解是什麼?\nOK,非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心我想先引用Economist經濟學人今年6月2日造就有篇文章談到相關的問題那這個部分其實事實上戰後因果潮當然就是說他經歷了戰後的一個非常非常黃金年代所以普遍資產來說增加但是其實這裡面的這一個收入來說還是有不均的一個情況另外一個問題它裡面談到一個就是說這一個世代的這一個generation\n他們雖然累積了財富但是卻不消費其中有很多原因其實事實上是他們對於整個因為平均移民延長所導致的照護上面的這個部分的費用他們的一個擔憂所以說他們只消他們雖然有財富但是不消費所以這個部分呢我們這部分反而是用透過我們長照\n所以我們從法院審理民事案件當中所得的參考資料來看的話臺灣社會每個月必須要生活費用大概1萬7到2萬3那如果扶弱或者是照顧一人的話就費用會增加一倍所以長輩不會因為退休而大幅免除這些生活上必要開支甚至\n還會有老老互相照顧跟啃老族現象所以我想問的是國家發展委員會現行人口統計對於扶養比的這兩大指標為扶老比跟扶幼比\n呃﹗\n主席,您是要讓我們問到寶嗎?所以我就真的要占用時間了,因為我才問到一半。不好意思,就是您今天一開始就說要讓我們問到寶了,所以我今天已經請他們上來了。來,衛福部想問一下,就是本法的\n議員：林月琴\n提了然後現在又要在這邊提所以有沒有可能會造成民眾誤會精準醫療是為長輩專屬的醫療方法的錯誤認知是的報告委員其實確實有可能會出現這樣的一個疑慮其實我們現在目前已經精準醫療部分我們已經在推動這個部分其實最重要我們也在加強其實最重要是落實的部分的問題所以這邊恐怕如果這樣的話可能也會有跌床架屋的這個疑慮謝謝好\n再回到貧富問題的話戰後嬰兒潮的真的事實上是得天獨厚比其他世代更富足嗎所以想來問因為現在這邊看到的是2023年我們的勞健保的年金加上勞退的薪資兩筆錢加起來大概每個月才23440塊那相較於必要支出的費用剛好打平所以想來問金管會\n經濟部兩位都是金融專家在社會保險年金尚未成長到讓高齡者足以普遍生活小康的階段現在是推動高齡者促進消費立法的好時機嗎?\n委員謝謝委員長,儘管這裡說明一下,事實上整個中高零整每個人的財務狀況真的是不一樣。那當然在這種情況之下,其實儘管我們在提供所有的保險,就是金融服務跟保險商品,這是我們本來就在做的。\n對,那因為條文裡面確實剛剛有提到就投資剛剛我也有提到投資兩個字啦因為事實上儘管不大適合建議你要去投資相關的標的但商品跟服務這部分是我們可以做到的所以我現在確實掌握數據也是就是40%的確經濟上事上是比較強勢\n您們有沒有針對本法的第5條的促進投資這一塊,第12條的促進觀光消費做可行性評估?評估的結果是如何?兩位\n主席,我們儘管的部分應該是在第6條的部分吧,實質就是這個金融的部分的部分,那那一部分的話就剛剛有申吾剛剛跟委員報告,事實上我們現在就有在做所謂的所有的三評跟服務的一個檢視,那裡面條文剛剛有報告說投資那兩個字可能可能投資不到12啦。好,謝謝吼。\n部長回到你這邊,壯世代那個倡議在平衡老人弱勢形象我覺得很好有正面的訴求當初吳委員講說不要用稱高齡或稱老人我覺得這個我支持可是勞動部今年的這些活動宣傳都聽到壯世代這個稱呼就可以知道當然我也很肯定可是要成為一部專法的話從老人學來看的話太過\n﹚林月琴\n已經就是通過已經通過中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進法的第7條的修正那其中本席所提出來的將部分公時的也列為政策推動項目公布後現在目前進度如何是委員就是指那個中高齡者的那個部分公時獎勵有我們那個獎勵已經開始在實施而且推廣那有更進度已經開始有\n所以你們有沒有發現說今天這次的草案很大部分跟中高齡跟高齡者就業包括第二條的第一項跟中高齡者就業專法的第33條是重疊的\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n兩邊都要去執行嗎?還是又定在另外一個法令裡邊?我剛剛已經報告過了我們對壯世代這個名詞當然他是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念可是他要上綱為法律這個有待商榷我剛剛已經說明過了\n我們還是維持現行的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這樣的專法架構來進行,大概就足夠了所以高齡者我們當然還是去支持他的生活智力可是所謂生活智力不論是長輩或是身心障礙者能夠尊嚴的過生活這非常的重要,不靠別人照顧\n所以未來達這個目標的話我們反而需要工具的輔助能夠未來事實上有生活輔具、無障礙空間跟數位金融資訊的可進信媒介的幫助所以想問經濟部跟衛福部如果說壯世代的到底產業是什麼我覺得真的要講應該事實上是我剛剛講的生活輔具產業或無障礙的交通產業或可進信的數位金融資訊產業所以不知道\n這個未來不管事實上是衛福部或者事實上是經濟部\n那能不能夠去協力去推動這個我們可以來推動因為我現在講的我們現在目前在行政院配合的角色是這個壯世代是具有經濟還有工作能力的那這個我們當然本來就是他有消費能力我們怎麼去創造他的消費的環境還有就是他在工作的時候他畢竟是已經有一定的年紀那我們怎麼去讓他的工作科技的方法讓他工作做得更輕鬆那這一部分是我們目前已經有在執行了\n那衛福部呢?是,包括委員,我想跟剛剛經濟部一樣,在有關於生活輔具跟無障礙空間,其實很多相關的related的這個產業,我們其實都已經存在,那我們也會持續再來推動。現有的就基本上應該已經足夠,成如剛剛何部長剛剛也有說到,那這個我們會來持續來推動。好,請經濟部衛福部能夠召集相關部會共同\n謝謝委員\n好謝謝謝謝林委員我想因為各個什麼老人福利法中高齡本身我們行政單位的名稱也是破碎\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:15.969\n李建的次長還有經濟部的林錦章次長還有我們的經管會的林志憲處長還有國家發展委員會的彭麗珮副主委\n\n00:21.938 --> 00:21.978\n議員吳春城\n\n00:40.998 --> 00:41.238\n李慧琴議員\n\n01:01.872 --> 01:01.892\n蘇維欣﹗\n\n01:21.490 --> 01:36.138\n則大退休草所帶來的衝擊所以在這邊我比較能正確去理解的是嬰兒草世代老化的生活面貌才知道我們需要什麼樣的法令來促進我們的整體高齡者生活可是這個法今天提出來這個法\n\n01:36.718 --> 01:59.465\n本來我一直認為他是一個倡議工具然後突然拉到我們要來做實質審查的時候我們必須要好好的去討論這個法案有沒有具備法律的一個條件首先我先請教一下經濟部我剛剛前面提的所以大退休潮的趨勢是學界提出來的研究項目\n\n02:00.385 --> 02:28.388\n在產業的實務上逐年越來越多借齡退休者,這個是不是部分產業缺工的原因之一?這個也是部分,第一個少子化,第二個也是那個大退休潮,這也是其中的原因之一。好,那次長我再問你,經濟部有沒有針對緩緩退休,退休後再就業,避免逼退中高齡就業主管這些事情,提出產業的輔導辦法,特別是創新的便民做法還是把這項業務全部丟給勞動部?\n\n02:29.189 --> 02:29.449\n謝謝次長那在衛福部這邊\n\n02:54.700 --> 03:19.159\n本法原來這個草案提出來的時候第二條跟第三項跟第四條推動壯世代的產業發展因為過去我聽過吳委員在講他的壯世代產業是認為我們的55歲以上的事實上非常有錢所以可以發展一些壯世代的產業來讓他們去做消費想問一下就是我們的衛福部你認為這樣子\n\n03:21.000 --> 03:45.461\n到底齁我先問經濟部你認為什麼是壯世代產業壯世代產業應該是我覺得不應該是我們經濟部來定義啦應該我們認為說只要第一個要有經濟的自主能力而且他要能夠有生產力那你們認為呢可行性評估結果如何有可能嗎\n\n03:47.122 --> 04:12.893\n就目前今天這個法令來講是如果就定義只有55歲以上這個範圍是比較不是那麼清楚因為正如剛剛很多委員講的如果沒有把一個上限定下來而且他是不是具有一些本身有自己經濟自主能力那這樣的話如果是要全部透過一些相關的社會福利來那這個應該是會負擔很重\n\n04:15.654 --> 04:31.682\n在衛福部本席非常擔心退休前後的長輩生活狀況究竟如何?因為朝四代真的像吳委員講的這麼富有嗎?所以想問一下衛福部你們的瞭解是什麼?\n\n04:32.827 --> 04:59.911\nOK,非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心我想先引用Economist經濟學人今年6月2日造就有篇文章談到相關的問題那這個部分其實事實上戰後因果潮當然就是說他經歷了戰後的一個非常非常黃金年代所以普遍資產來說增加但是其實這裡面的這一個收入來說還是有不均的一個情況另外一個問題它裡面談到一個就是說這一個世代的這一個generation\n\n05:00.231 --> 05:18.323\n他們雖然累積了財富但是卻不消費其中有很多原因其實事實上是他們對於整個因為平均移民延長所導致的照護上面的這個部分的費用他們的一個擔憂所以說他們只消他們雖然有財富但是不消費所以這個部分呢我們這部分反而是用透過我們長照\n\n05:19.424 --> 05:45.320\n所以我們從法院審理民事案件當中所得的參考資料來看的話臺灣社會每個月必須要生活費用大概1萬7到2萬3那如果扶弱或者是照顧一人的話就費用會增加一倍所以長輩不會因為退休而大幅免除這些生活上必要開支甚至\n\n05:46.180 --> 05:58.728\n還會有老老互相照顧跟啃老族現象所以我想問的是國家發展委員會現行人口統計對於扶養比的這兩大指標為扶老比跟扶幼比\n\n06:35.068 --> 06:51.221\n主席,您是要讓我們問到寶嗎?所以我就真的要占用時間了,因為我才問到一半。不好意思,就是您今天一開始就說要讓我們問到寶了,所以我今天已經請他們上來了。來,衛福部想問一下,就是本法的\n\n06:52.142 --> 06:52.442\n議員：林月琴\n\n07:14.110 --> 07:39.706\n提了然後現在又要在這邊提所以有沒有可能會造成民眾誤會精準醫療是為長輩專屬的醫療方法的錯誤認知是的報告委員其實確實有可能會出現這樣的一個疑慮其實我們現在目前已經精準醫療部分我們已經在推動這個部分其實最重要我們也在加強其實最重要是落實的部分的問題所以這邊恐怕如果這樣的話可能也會有跌床架屋的這個疑慮謝謝好\n\n07:41.187 --> 08:02.667\n再回到貧富問題的話戰後嬰兒潮的真的事實上是得天獨厚比其他世代更富足嗎所以想來問因為現在這邊看到的是2023年我們的勞健保的年金加上勞退的薪資兩筆錢加起來大概每個月才23440塊那相較於必要支出的費用剛好打平所以想來問金管會\n\n08:06.060 --> 08:18.928\n經濟部兩位都是金融專家在社會保險年金尚未成長到讓高齡者足以普遍生活小康的階段現在是推動高齡者促進消費立法的好時機嗎?\n\n08:21.090 --> 08:35.291\n委員謝謝委員長,儘管這裡說明一下,事實上整個中高零整每個人的財務狀況真的是不一樣。那當然在這種情況之下,其實儘管我們在提供所有的保險,就是金融服務跟保險商品,這是我們本來就在做的。\n\n08:37.253 --> 08:50.940\n對,那因為條文裡面確實剛剛有提到就投資剛剛我也有提到投資兩個字啦因為事實上儘管不大適合建議你要去投資相關的標的但商品跟服務這部分是我們可以做到的所以我現在確實掌握數據也是就是40%的確經濟上事上是比較強勢\n\n08:53.882 --> 08:59.186\n您們有沒有針對本法的第5條的促進投資這一塊,第12條的促進觀光消費做可行性評估?評估的結果是如何?兩位\n\n09:16.792 --> 09:33.985\n主席,我們儘管的部分應該是在第6條的部分吧,實質就是這個金融的部分的部分,那那一部分的話就剛剛有申吾剛剛跟委員報告,事實上我們現在就有在做所謂的所有的三評跟服務的一個檢視,那裡面條文剛剛有報告說投資那兩個字可能可能投資不到12啦。好,謝謝吼。\n\n09:36.187 --> 10:02.169\n部長回到你這邊,壯世代那個倡議在平衡老人弱勢形象我覺得很好有正面的訴求當初吳委員講說不要用稱高齡或稱老人我覺得這個我支持可是勞動部今年的這些活動宣傳都聽到壯世代這個稱呼就可以知道當然我也很肯定可是要成為一部專法的話從老人學來看的話太過\n\n10:03.370 --> 10:03.810\n﹚林月琴\n\n10:23.467 --> 10:50.115\n已經就是通過已經通過中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進法的第7條的修正那其中本席所提出來的將部分公時的也列為政策推動項目公布後現在目前進度如何是委員就是指那個中高齡者的那個部分公時獎勵有我們那個獎勵已經開始在實施而且推廣那有更進度已經開始有\n\n10:50.896 --> 10:56.081\n所以你們有沒有發現說今天這次的草案很大部分跟中高齡跟高齡者就業包括第二條的第一項跟中高齡者就業專法的第33條是重疊的\n\n11:12.739 --> 11:22.106\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n11:39.738 --> 11:54.886\n兩邊都要去執行嗎?還是又定在另外一個法令裡邊?我剛剛已經報告過了我們對壯世代這個名詞當然他是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念可是他要上綱為法律這個有待商榷我剛剛已經說明過了\n\n12:00.188 --> 12:18.614\n我們還是維持現行的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這樣的專法架構來進行,大概就足夠了所以高齡者我們當然還是去支持他的生活智力可是所謂生活智力不論是長輩或是身心障礙者能夠尊嚴的過生活這非常的重要,不靠別人照顧\n\n12:19.814 --> 12:45.214\n所以未來達這個目標的話我們反而需要工具的輔助能夠未來事實上有生活輔具、無障礙空間跟數位金融資訊的可進信媒介的幫助所以想問經濟部跟衛福部如果說壯世代的到底產業是什麼我覺得真的要講應該事實上是我剛剛講的生活輔具產業或無障礙的交通產業或可進信的數位金融資訊產業所以不知道\n\n12:49.125 --> 12:53.339\n這個未來不管事實上是衛福部或者事實上是經濟部\n\n12:54.676 --> 13:23.986\n那能不能夠去協力去推動這個我們可以來推動因為我現在講的我們現在目前在行政院配合的角色是這個壯世代是具有經濟還有工作能力的那這個我們當然本來就是他有消費能力我們怎麼去創造他的消費的環境還有就是他在工作的時候他畢竟是已經有一定的年紀那我們怎麼去讓他的工作科技的方法讓他工作做得更輕鬆那這一部分是我們目前已經有在執行了\n\n13:24.346 --> 13:48.002\n那衛福部呢?是,包括委員,我想跟剛剛經濟部一樣,在有關於生活輔具跟無障礙空間,其實很多相關的related的這個產業,我們其實都已經存在,那我們也會持續再來推動。現有的就基本上應該已經足夠,成如剛剛何部長剛剛也有說到,那這個我們會來持續來推動。好,請經濟部衛福部能夠召集相關部會共同\n\n13:48.963 --> 13:48.983\n謝謝委員\n\n14:17.087 --> 14:25.804\n好謝謝謝謝林委員我想因為各個什麼老人福利法中高齡本身我們行政單位的名稱也是破碎\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":15.969,"text":"李建的次長還有經濟部的林錦章次長還有我們的經管會的林志憲處長還有國家發展委員會的彭麗珮副主委"},{"start":21.938,"end":21.978,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":40.998,"end":41.238,"text":"李慧琴議員"},{"start":61.872,"end":61.892,"text":"蘇維欣﹗"},{"start":81.49,"end":96.138,"text":"則大退休草所帶來的衝擊所以在這邊我比較能正確去理解的是嬰兒草世代老化的生活面貌才知道我們需要什麼樣的法令來促進我們的整體高齡者生活可是這個法今天提出來這個法"},{"start":96.718,"end":119.465,"text":"本來我一直認為他是一個倡議工具然後突然拉到我們要來做實質審查的時候我們必須要好好的去討論這個法案有沒有具備法律的一個條件首先我先請教一下經濟部我剛剛前面提的所以大退休潮的趨勢是學界提出來的研究項目"},{"start":120.385,"end":148.388,"text":"在產業的實務上逐年越來越多借齡退休者,這個是不是部分產業缺工的原因之一?這個也是部分,第一個少子化,第二個也是那個大退休潮,這也是其中的原因之一。好,那次長我再問你,經濟部有沒有針對緩緩退休,退休後再就業,避免逼退中高齡就業主管這些事情,提出產業的輔導辦法,特別是創新的便民做法還是把這項業務全部丟給勞動部?"},{"start":149.189,"end":149.449,"text":"謝謝次長那在衛福部這邊"},{"start":174.7,"end":199.159,"text":"本法原來這個草案提出來的時候第二條跟第三項跟第四條推動壯世代的產業發展因為過去我聽過吳委員在講他的壯世代產業是認為我們的55歲以上的事實上非常有錢所以可以發展一些壯世代的產業來讓他們去做消費想問一下就是我們的衛福部你認為這樣子"},{"start":201,"end":225.461,"text":"到底齁我先問經濟部你認為什麼是壯世代產業壯世代產業應該是我覺得不應該是我們經濟部來定義啦應該我們認為說只要第一個要有經濟的自主能力而且他要能夠有生產力那你們認為呢可行性評估結果如何有可能嗎"},{"start":227.122,"end":252.893,"text":"就目前今天這個法令來講是如果就定義只有55歲以上這個範圍是比較不是那麼清楚因為正如剛剛很多委員講的如果沒有把一個上限定下來而且他是不是具有一些本身有自己經濟自主能力那這樣的話如果是要全部透過一些相關的社會福利來那這個應該是會負擔很重"},{"start":255.654,"end":271.682,"text":"在衛福部本席非常擔心退休前後的長輩生活狀況究竟如何?因為朝四代真的像吳委員講的這麼富有嗎?所以想問一下衛福部你們的瞭解是什麼?"},{"start":272.827,"end":299.911,"text":"OK,非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心我想先引用Economist經濟學人今年6月2日造就有篇文章談到相關的問題那這個部分其實事實上戰後因果潮當然就是說他經歷了戰後的一個非常非常黃金年代所以普遍資產來說增加但是其實這裡面的這一個收入來說還是有不均的一個情況另外一個問題它裡面談到一個就是說這一個世代的這一個generation"},{"start":300.231,"end":318.323,"text":"他們雖然累積了財富但是卻不消費其中有很多原因其實事實上是他們對於整個因為平均移民延長所導致的照護上面的這個部分的費用他們的一個擔憂所以說他們只消他們雖然有財富但是不消費所以這個部分呢我們這部分反而是用透過我們長照"},{"start":319.424,"end":345.32,"text":"所以我們從法院審理民事案件當中所得的參考資料來看的話臺灣社會每個月必須要生活費用大概1萬7到2萬3那如果扶弱或者是照顧一人的話就費用會增加一倍所以長輩不會因為退休而大幅免除這些生活上必要開支甚至"},{"start":346.18,"end":358.728,"text":"還會有老老互相照顧跟啃老族現象所以我想問的是國家發展委員會現行人口統計對於扶養比的這兩大指標為扶老比跟扶幼比"},{"start":359.172,"end":386.032,"text":"呃﹗"},{"start":395.068,"end":411.221,"text":"主席,您是要讓我們問到寶嗎?所以我就真的要占用時間了,因為我才問到一半。不好意思,就是您今天一開始就說要讓我們問到寶了,所以我今天已經請他們上來了。來,衛福部想問一下,就是本法的"},{"start":412.142,"end":412.442,"text":"議員：林月琴"},{"start":434.11,"end":459.706,"text":"提了然後現在又要在這邊提所以有沒有可能會造成民眾誤會精準醫療是為長輩專屬的醫療方法的錯誤認知是的報告委員其實確實有可能會出現這樣的一個疑慮其實我們現在目前已經精準醫療部分我們已經在推動這個部分其實最重要我們也在加強其實最重要是落實的部分的問題所以這邊恐怕如果這樣的話可能也會有跌床架屋的這個疑慮謝謝好"},{"start":461.187,"end":482.667,"text":"再回到貧富問題的話戰後嬰兒潮的真的事實上是得天獨厚比其他世代更富足嗎所以想來問因為現在這邊看到的是2023年我們的勞健保的年金加上勞退的薪資兩筆錢加起來大概每個月才23440塊那相較於必要支出的費用剛好打平所以想來問金管會"},{"start":486.06,"end":498.928,"text":"經濟部兩位都是金融專家在社會保險年金尚未成長到讓高齡者足以普遍生活小康的階段現在是推動高齡者促進消費立法的好時機嗎?"},{"start":501.09,"end":515.291,"text":"委員謝謝委員長,儘管這裡說明一下,事實上整個中高零整每個人的財務狀況真的是不一樣。那當然在這種情況之下,其實儘管我們在提供所有的保險,就是金融服務跟保險商品,這是我們本來就在做的。"},{"start":517.253,"end":530.94,"text":"對,那因為條文裡面確實剛剛有提到就投資剛剛我也有提到投資兩個字啦因為事實上儘管不大適合建議你要去投資相關的標的但商品跟服務這部分是我們可以做到的所以我現在確實掌握數據也是就是40%的確經濟上事上是比較強勢"},{"start":533.882,"end":539.186,"text":"您們有沒有針對本法的第5條的促進投資這一塊,第12條的促進觀光消費做可行性評估?評估的結果是如何?兩位"},{"start":556.792,"end":573.985,"text":"主席,我們儘管的部分應該是在第6條的部分吧,實質就是這個金融的部分的部分,那那一部分的話就剛剛有申吾剛剛跟委員報告,事實上我們現在就有在做所謂的所有的三評跟服務的一個檢視,那裡面條文剛剛有報告說投資那兩個字可能可能投資不到12啦。好,謝謝吼。"},{"start":576.187,"end":602.169,"text":"部長回到你這邊,壯世代那個倡議在平衡老人弱勢形象我覺得很好有正面的訴求當初吳委員講說不要用稱高齡或稱老人我覺得這個我支持可是勞動部今年的這些活動宣傳都聽到壯世代這個稱呼就可以知道當然我也很肯定可是要成為一部專法的話從老人學來看的話太過"},{"start":603.37,"end":603.81,"text":"﹚林月琴"},{"start":623.467,"end":650.115,"text":"已經就是通過已經通過中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進法的第7條的修正那其中本席所提出來的將部分公時的也列為政策推動項目公布後現在目前進度如何是委員就是指那個中高齡者的那個部分公時獎勵有我們那個獎勵已經開始在實施而且推廣那有更進度已經開始有"},{"start":650.896,"end":656.081,"text":"所以你們有沒有發現說今天這次的草案很大部分跟中高齡跟高齡者就業包括第二條的第一項跟中高齡者就業專法的第33條是重疊的"},{"start":672.739,"end":682.106,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":699.738,"end":714.886,"text":"兩邊都要去執行嗎?還是又定在另外一個法令裡邊?我剛剛已經報告過了我們對壯世代這個名詞當然他是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念可是他要上綱為法律這個有待商榷我剛剛已經說明過了"},{"start":720.188,"end":738.614,"text":"我們還是維持現行的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這樣的專法架構來進行,大概就足夠了所以高齡者我們當然還是去支持他的生活智力可是所謂生活智力不論是長輩或是身心障礙者能夠尊嚴的過生活這非常的重要,不靠別人照顧"},{"start":739.814,"end":765.214,"text":"所以未來達這個目標的話我們反而需要工具的輔助能夠未來事實上有生活輔具、無障礙空間跟數位金融資訊的可進信媒介的幫助所以想問經濟部跟衛福部如果說壯世代的到底產業是什麼我覺得真的要講應該事實上是我剛剛講的生活輔具產業或無障礙的交通產業或可進信的數位金融資訊產業所以不知道"},{"start":769.125,"end":773.339,"text":"這個未來不管事實上是衛福部或者事實上是經濟部"},{"start":774.676,"end":803.986,"text":"那能不能夠去協力去推動這個我們可以來推動因為我現在講的我們現在目前在行政院配合的角色是這個壯世代是具有經濟還有工作能力的那這個我們當然本來就是他有消費能力我們怎麼去創造他的消費的環境還有就是他在工作的時候他畢竟是已經有一定的年紀那我們怎麼去讓他的工作科技的方法讓他工作做得更輕鬆那這一部分是我們目前已經有在執行了"},{"start":804.346,"end":828.002,"text":"那衛福部呢?是,包括委員,我想跟剛剛經濟部一樣,在有關於生活輔具跟無障礙空間,其實很多相關的related的這個產業,我們其實都已經存在,那我們也會持續再來推動。現有的就基本上應該已經足夠,成如剛剛何部長剛剛也有說到,那這個我們會來持續來推動。好,請經濟部衛福部能夠召集相關部會共同"},{"start":828.963,"end":828.983,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":857.087,"end":865.804,"text":"好謝謝謝謝林委員我想因為各個什麼老人福利法中高齡本身我們行政單位的名稱也是破碎"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":314,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時46分）主席好，我要請勞動部的何佩珊部長、衛福部呂建德次長、經濟部的連錦漳次長、金管會的林志憲處長，還有國家發展委員會的彭立沛副主委。今天與會的官員非常多，所以為什麼會邀這麼多官員，等一下是不是一一再回答我的問題。部長好，第二次世界大戰戰後嬰兒潮，當年臺灣每一年出生人數大概是40萬，到2024年，目前是9月，看起來就是9萬，的確出生率是下降的，那在2024年的今天，年齡為58到75歲被法律定義為中高齡跟高齡者，今天嬰兒潮隨著老化轉為退休潮的時候，全球的政治經濟是一個大議題，所以從勞工保險的老人給付請領人數逐年上升，臺灣也正面臨著大退休潮所帶來的衝擊，在這邊我們要能正確去理解的是嬰兒潮世代老化的生活面貌，才知道我們需要什麼樣的法令來促進我們整體高齡者生活。可是今天提出來的這個法，本來我一直認為它是一個倡議工具，突然拉到我們要來做實質審查的時候，我們必須要好好的去討論這個法案有沒有具備法律的條件。首先，我先請教一下經濟部，我剛剛前面提的，大退休潮的趨勢是學界提出來的研究項目，在產業的實務上逐年越來越多的屆齡退休者是不是部分產業缺工的原因之一？"],["連次長錦漳：這個也是，第一個少子化，第二個是大退休潮，這也是其中的原因之一。"],["林委員月琴：次長，我再問你，經濟部有沒有針對延緩退休、退休後再就業，避免逼退中高齡就業主管這些事情，提出產業的輔導辦法？特別是創新的便民作法，還是把這項業務全部丟給勞動部？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，我們是跟勞動部一起合作的，因為退休者要再就業，這是勞動部在負責，但是如果要再就業，我們怎麼去營造友善的就業環境，還有透過科技的工具來協助這些高齡者再就業的時候可以更省力，這也是我們在跟勞動部合作的。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝次長。在衛福部這邊，本法原來這個草案提出來的時候，第二條第三項跟第四條推動壯世代的產業發展，因為過去我聽過吳委員在講壯世代產業，他是認為我們的55歲以上的國民事實上非常有錢，所以可以發展一些壯世代的產業讓他們去消費，我先問經濟部，你認為什麼是壯世代產業？"],["連次長錦漳：我覺得不應該是我們經濟部來定義，我們認為第一個要有經濟的自主能力，而且他要能夠有生產力。"],["林委員月琴：那你們認為呢？可行性評估結果如何？有可能嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：就目前這個法令來講，如果定義只有55歲以上，這個範圍比較不是那麼清楚，誠如剛剛很多委員講的，如果沒有把上限訂下來，而且他是不是本身有經濟自主能力，這樣的話要全部透過相關的社會福利，負擔應該會很重。"],["林委員月琴：好。再來是衛福部，本席非常擔心退休前後的長輩之生活狀況究竟如何，嬰兒潮世代真的像吳委員講的這麼富有嗎？想問一下衛福部的瞭解是什麼？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心，我想先引用的是，「經濟學人」（The Economist）在今年6月24日就有一篇文章談到相關問題，戰後嬰兒潮，當然他經歷了戰後非常非常黃金的年代，所以普遍來說資產是增加，但這當中的收入還是有不均的情況。","另外一個問題，它裡面談到，這一個世代（generation）雖然累積了財富，但是卻不消費，其中有很多原因，他們對於整個由於平均餘命延長所導致的照護費用的擔憂，所以他們雖然有財富但不消費，我們就這部分反而是透過長照來推動。因此我想最重要的根本解決之道，可能還是我們目前就超高齡社會的對策。"],["林委員月琴：我們從法院審理民事案件當中所得到的參考資料來看，臺灣社會每個月必要生活費用大概是一萬七至兩萬三；如果扶弱或者照顧1人的話，費用會增加一倍，所以長輩不會因為退休而大幅免除這些生活上的必要開支，甚至還會有老老互相照顧和啃老族現象。我想問的是，國家發展委員會的現行人口統計，對於扶養比的這兩大指標，為扶老比和扶幼比，至於65歲以上人口，對65歲以上家屬或64歲以下人口扶養的統計數據，我們很難取得。所以本席強烈質疑，我們的老老互相照顧和啃老族這個現象，國家發展委員會有沒有做過這樣子的研究瞭解，至今到底有多少人是這樣、有多少戶？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：跟委員報告，因為我現在手上沒有這個資料，我回去再補充資料給委員這邊做參考，好不好？"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：主席，你是要讓我們問到飽嘛！所以我就真的要占用時間了，因為我才問到一半。"],["主席：沒有啦……"],["林委員月琴：不好意思，你今天一開始就說要讓我們問到飽，所以我已經請他們上來了。衛福部，想問一下，本法第八條提到精準醫療，這是衛福部現行跨司……"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員月琴：特別是借助我們新藥物、新科技達到上述目的之手段，每個年齡都會涉及到的議題，所以想問衛福部，立法特別保障老人提升精準醫療的作法，有沒有重複規範的問題？本來就有提了，現在又在這邊提，所以有沒有可能會造成民眾誤會精準醫療是長輩專屬的醫療方法，而有錯誤認知？"],["呂次長建德：是的，報告委員，確實有可能會出現這樣的疑慮。目前精準醫療部分我們已經在推動，也在加強，最重要是落實的問題，所以如果這樣的話可能也會有疊床架屋的疑慮。"],["林委員月琴：再回到貧富問題，戰後嬰兒潮事實上真的是得天獨厚，比其他世代更富足。現在這邊看到的是2023年我們勞健保的年金，加上勞退的薪資，兩筆錢加起來，大概每個月才領2萬3,440塊，相較於必要支出的費用剛好打平。所以想問金管會及經濟部，兩位都是金融專家，在社會保險年金尚未成長到讓高齡者足以普遍生活是小康階段的話，現在是推動高齡者的促進消費立法的好時機嗎？"],["林處長志憲：謝謝委員，金管會說明，事實上整個中高齡者，每個人的財務狀況真的是不一樣。"],["林委員月琴：是。"],["林處長志憲：不一樣，當然在這種情況之下，金管會在提供的所有保險，就是金融服務和保險商品，這是我們本來就在做的。"],["林委員月琴：對……"],["林處長志憲：因為條文裡面，確實剛剛有提到，就是投資，委員提到「投資」兩個字，事實上金管會不大適合建議你要去投資相關標的，但商品和服務這部分是我們可以做到的。"],["林委員月琴：我現在確實掌握數據，40%的確經濟方面事實上是比較強勢，10%是富有，50%以下幾乎都是……只有2萬以下的人，可是我們卻說要推，我不知道你們有沒有針對本法五條的促進投資這一塊、第十二條的促進觀光消費做可行性評估，評估的結果是如何？兩位。"],["林處長志憲：金管會的部分應該是在第六條，就是金融部分，那一部分的話，誠如剛剛跟委員報告，事實上我們現在就在做所有商品和服務的檢視，裡面的條文，剛剛有報告說「投資」那兩個字可能還要再……"],["林委員月琴：可行嗎？"],["林處長志憲：：可能「投資」不大適合……"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。","部長，回到你這邊，就壯世代，倡議平衡老人弱勢形象，我覺得很好，有正面的訴求。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員月琴：當初吳委員也講不要稱高齡或稱老人，這個我支持，勞動部近年的這些活動宣傳都聽到「壯世代」這個稱呼，就可以知道，當然我也很肯定，可是要成為一部專法，從老人學來看的話，太過破碎及不夠完整。所以我認為，未來是不是老人福利法和促進福利去彌補過去資源不足，因為現在也有民間團體一直認為不要稱「老人」福利法，事實上是他的權益保障。所以想問，已經通過中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條的修正，其中本席所提出來的，將部分工時也列為政策推動項目，公布之後，目前進度如何？"],["何部長佩珊：委員是指中高齡者的部分工時獎勵……"],["林委員月琴：對。"],["何部長佩珊：有，我們那個獎勵已經開始在實施，而且推廣。"],["林委員月琴：現在的進度已經開始……"],["蔡署長孟長：跟委員報告，這個現在會列為重點，因為就部分工時，對一些中高齡而言確實有其需求，尤其是兼顧家庭，這部分我們現在跟地方政府及各部會其實都一直在推動當中。"],["林委員月琴：你們有沒有發現，這次的草案很大部分跟中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法，包括第二條第一項，跟中高齡者就業專法的第三十三條是重疊的？"],["何部長佩珊：是，都是重疊的。"],["林委員月琴：第七條跟專法第二章的禁止年齡歧視、第四章的促進失業者就業是不是重疊了？"],["何部長佩珊：是，完全重疊。"],["林委員月琴：而第十三條及第十四條，跟專法的第十條及第三十四條是不是重疊的？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員月琴：既然這麼高度相似、重疊的話，勞動部主管機關對於這樣的疊床架屋，是不是會讓我們的政策事實上是……兩邊都要去執行嗎？還是又訂在另外一個法令裡面？"],["何部長佩珊：不，委員，我剛剛已經報告過了，我們對「壯世代」這個名詞，當然它是反年齡歧視的一個非常好的概念，可是它要上綱為法律，這個有待商榷，我剛剛已經說明過了。所以我們還是維持現行的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這樣的專法架構來進行，大概就足夠了。"],["林委員月琴：所以高齡者，我們當然還是支持他的生活自立，可是所謂的生活自立，不論是長輩或身心障礙者，能夠尊嚴地過生活，這個非常重要，不靠別人照顧。要達到這個目標的話，我們反而需要工具的輔助，未來有生活輔具、無障礙空間，以及數位金融資訊的可近性媒介的幫助。所以想問經濟部和衛福部，如果說壯世代的產業到底是什麼，真的要講的話，我覺得事實上應該是我剛剛講的生活輔具產業、無障礙的交通產業或可近性的數位金融資訊產業，這個未來不管是衛福部，或者事實上是經濟部，能不能夠協力推動？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們可以來推動，我們目前在行政院的配合角色是，壯世代是具有經濟還有工作能力的，本來就是他有消費能力，我們怎麼去創造他的消費，還有他在工作的時候，畢竟已經有一定的年紀，我們怎麼就科技的方法讓他工作做得更輕鬆，這一部分我們目前已經在執行。"],["林委員月琴：那衛福部呢？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，跟剛剛經濟部一樣，有關於生活輔具和無障礙空間，有很多相關related的產業其實都已經存在，我們也會持續再推動。但是現有的，基本上應該已經足夠，誠如剛剛何部長也有說到，這個我們會持續來推動，應該沒有必要……"],["林委員月琴：好，請經濟部、衛福部能夠召集相關部會共同制定醫療、生活、身心障礙者輔具產業策略，這才符合我們要進入超高齡社會的需求，不過我還是要講，這個法還是要請召委真的是要有達到社會共識的討論，不是只有一次公聽會，目前我聽起來，不管是老人團體或者是長照團體，他們對此都還有一些疑慮，以上，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。因為各個什麼老人福利法、中高齡等，行政單位的名稱本身也是破碎，所以吳春城委員提議要把它統合起來，我認為是個好的idea，至於往後怎麼弄？這個是大家要集思廣益，謝謝。","請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}}