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\"text\": \"所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 495.345, \"end\": 495.405, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 495.405, \"end\": 495.465, \"score\": 0.61}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 495.465, \"end\": 495.585, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 495.585, \"end\": 495.765, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 495.765, \"end\": 496.066, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 496.066, \"end\": 496.306, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 496.306, \"end\": 496.406, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 496.406, \"end\": 496.706, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 496.706, \"end\": 496.846, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 496.846, \"end\": 496.986, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 781.359, \"end\": 781.52, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 781.52, \"end\": 781.74, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 781.74, \"end\": 781.88, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 781.88, \"end\": 782.18, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 782.18, \"end\": 782.2, \"score\": 0.997}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:00,149\n沈委員好部長好\n\n2\n00:00:16,502 --> 00:00:44,556\n那這個我們一開始就切入這個政體就是說這一次這個民防法這個國民黨有提出一些修正那我蠻希望權動署能夠先做一些溝通因為第一件事情就是說因為他們的宣稱是說他們不要讓學生上戰場等等之類的那他們這次動的呢就是有在我上面寫的這個民防法第二條那民防法第二條呢他指的是民防的工作範圍1到9那他們是直接把第四款\n\n3\n00:00:45,556 --> 00:00:46,738\n支援軍事勤務\n\n4\n00:01:00,576 --> 00:01:27,073\n搶修機場：協助運輸：對空間事：情報：傷患作業：如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事請勿的規定那麼以後民防在暫時的時候右邊這邊事情全部都不能做了所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的那他們的宣稱說這一個因為是學生的關係目前是希望權動署能夠跟教育部溝通\n\n5\n00:01:27,873 --> 00:01:53,539\n因為按照我們現在的法律教育部要做相關的動員按照權動法就他有自己的分類計劃所以教育部是可以自己決定的所以民防的範圍很大包含這一些也包含志願軍師勤務但教育部對於自己的學生的動員跟那個分類計劃要不要包含這個是他自己可以決定的他自己可以限縮而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說他把軍警\n\n6\n00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:55,040\n沈伯洋\n\n7\n00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:29,153\n畢竟他的專長在跟教育相關並不是這一個方面所以權動署的角色真的是我覺得很吃重啦我昨天也有提到是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應說現在的做法其實就已經是這個樣子了那另外也是希望就是民防法我認為支援軍事情務這一塊\n\n8\n00:02:30,074 --> 00:02:31,175\n第一點就是說學校的這些學生的任務他本身是在做這個校園的一個防護\n\n9\n00:02:56,375 --> 00:02:56,655\n沈伯洋議員\n\n10\n00:03:12,328 --> 00:03:13,449\n沈伯洋\n\n11\n00:03:32,142 --> 00:03:55,690\n將這個整個拿掉可能會是的確會有一些這樣的問題不過因為這個主管機關的是內政部那我想我們的立場當然應該是說我們尊重委員的提案權但是涉及民安法跟相關的執法我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情好謝謝然後再請幫忙提醒一下因為這真的是蠻重要的不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會\n\n12\n00:03:57,230 --> 00:04:10,363\n好那這一個再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情那這一個有後來其實有到辦公室其實有問就是說到底有沒有這一個事項那是不是是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下謝謝\n\n13\n00:04:13,371 --> 00:04:28,650\n陸軍常務長向委員報告在上週委員提詢之後10月17號我們了解了到委員辦公室說明那確實在10月10號休假營外是有58炮子部是有事關發生一個營外的\n\n14\n00:04:29,611 --> 00:04:30,112\n沈伯洋委員\n\n15\n00:04:46,232 --> 00:04:46,452\n以上報告\n\n16\n00:05:05,197 --> 00:05:29,410\n謝謝沈部長,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的,因為內規上,而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的這些規定,那原作其實在2020年的時候呢,本來有說想要弄到內規,那其實是沒有的嘛,所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候,他就不應該,他沒有那個依據,沒有那個依據的話,應該一切都回歸到法律的規定,還有人事的規定,這真的是非常的重要,所以真的是很希望就是說,這樣的事情不要再發生。\n\n17\n00:05:30,650 --> 00:05:55,776\n委員好對不起我是董事長跟您補充一下剛才在檢討的部分非常謝謝委員的指導論上我都說過了但要跟委員說明這件事情這跟連坐法是兩件事第一個榮譽價不是處分就是沒有收回他的權益榮譽價是為了一個單位他個人如果立法統一的手段我給你的榮譽價可能提到幾個小時但是如果沒有榮譽價並不是處分這點要核心序名第二個他這個人犯的錯是主觀針對說\n\n18\n00:05:57,376 --> 00:06:25,187\n等一下等一下等一下他不管是不是處分但重點是處罰到不是那個行為人沒有他不是他是收回給你的獎勵他只是收回獎勵這不是處分對但是今天跟處分無關今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來是這個我們會檢討這個要實質跟委員不同說明這個對所以不能夠用這樣的一個方式讓無關的人被捲入這其實是非常重要的事情是是是所以我覺得這真的因為畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做\n\n19\n00:06:26,047 --> 00:06:53,502\n他沒有一個直接的法律的授權所以如果說今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候他必須要有別的授權的規定那這是抱歉這個委員請讓我再講10秒鐘就是也沒有法律依據要給他這個榮譽假我要舉一個例子譬如說我現在選橘光楷模如果我因為我的單位我的單位喔有人觸犯經濟我是直接拿掉我根本沒有資格進這個橘光楷模的名單這是我們軍中對整肅軍艦提升榮譽的一個做法那至於做法上不當然剛剛參議長講過我們會指導謝謝委員\n\n20\n00:06:55,683 --> 00:07:21,354\n因為畢竟內部的規定當時就是希望不需要再有連坐的事情發生所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人他可能是督導的人但是因為督導的人我們之前在督導的人也有提過就是說如果他今天在比如說在這個休假之前他都已經有宣導什麼等等之類的他也不會被處分這都是之前有講過的事情所以真的必須要注意因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷的發生的話這個是上面沒有辦法下達\n\n21\n00:07:22,835 --> 00:07:23,777\n這次副部長有提到\n\n22\n00:07:33,315 --> 00:07:59,757\n國軍推放這個全民國防教育培訓的講習說要廣出民間師資的能量這確實是好事但是我們面臨了兩個狀況這個是之前就已經有講過的一個就是在這個市政府這一邊在台北市政府還在替代役的藝男進軍召集的時候放了這個抖音的影片當然我也是要幫他澄清一下他那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的他就是一個抖音影片而已\n\n23\n00:08:00,037 --> 00:08:00,417\n臺中新兵入營遊覽車\n\n24\n00:08:15,345 --> 00:08:42,884\n所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關\n\n25\n00:08:43,564 --> 00:09:12,226\n那我們如果為了要避免類似像這樣的狀況發生以國防部的立場有沒有什麼對策委員好跟委員報告一下國防部他上次委員有提出來這個問題我們做了幾個檢討第一個就是我們現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司廠商已經完成一個合約的一個協定那現在就是最後階段在做一個採購式的一個修約的方式我們第一個就限制他所有的人到車上之後\n\n26\n00:09:12,987 --> 00:09:31,479\n按照交通部的規定實施交通的法規跟安全的事項宣導之後那就不會有任何影片的播放那這一段是第一個那第二個您剛剛提到返鄉專車他是福利委員自己找過來的我們透過我們一定到位的方式向所有的單位先做個宣導第二個\n\n27\n00:09:32,279 --> 00:09:51,933\n在上車之前會有相關的保防檢查單位去做個說明就是說按照這樣的方式來做事情那這樣的話就是這兩方面來跟委員做個報告感謝因為我覺得當然以契約的精神來講就是說你本來應該要做什麼結果他沒做那當然就是在返鄉專車這邊他畢竟因為不是你們直接去找\n\n28\n00:09:52,313 --> 00:10:13,538\n所以如果有相關的措施我覺得是重要的那至於地方政府那這個就是另外一件事情我們可能就也沒有必要在這邊討論那接下來呢就是今天的主要的這個無人機這個我之前有問過所以只是想問後來評估的這個結果就是因為今天呢在整個雅創這個腹地它其實有點小而且民雄那邊的建築物也多\n\n29\n00:10:14,278 --> 00:10:34,499\n所以就是他們在做這一個是非的時候你看它這一個沙河它目前只有大概50公里嘛50公里那我知道國防部之前好像有提過就是說可以可能往海飛啊或什麼等等之類的那現在就是說跟因為這是要跟民航局什麼等等之類的協調然後往東部的海域可能去走那只是想問一下因為這之前問過想追蹤一下後續這個評估的狀況為何\n\n30\n00:10:37,622 --> 00:11:06,156\n跟委員報告我們現在跟嘉義縣政府一起在合作我們希望能夠在嘉義的役族做一個專門的試飛場域那這個腹地大概有多大會往海上飛嗎還是還是會往海上飛的部分那這樣的話目前來講對於這些廠商他要做測試要做沙盒之類的他會不會有什麼困難我們真正的困難其實在民航局法規的說法那目前來講民航局的態度呢\n\n31\n00:11:07,285 --> 00:11:25,355\n因為它還是需要要有四行認證的部分那這個部分我們還在看怎麼去把法規來做鬆綁因為我覺得畢竟我們已經和了無人機國家隊已經有一陣子了那接下來也有可能跟各國的這種無人機的合作那這種算是一種基礎設施的建制這個如果先做好了後續要做才會變得比較方便\n\n32\n00:11:26,655 --> 00:11:52,282\n還有另外一個就是跟飛手有關的這個之前有稍微問過國防部但是就是說請我覺得在公眾的這一個針對這個民眾來做一個說明就是目前去用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用是不一樣的但我們看到我們目前飛手訓練這邊的這一個標案上面他就有提到說先要考取民航局無人機的這個證照就是他要用一個先行就是你要先取得這個證照之後後續才可以做這一個\n\n33\n00:11:52,602 --> 00:11:52,962\n入軍舊無人機飛訓練中心\n\n34\n00:12:04,552 --> 00:12:31,639\n向委員報告有關於您講這個我們在標案裡面有就是有要求要考照的這個這個第一個他是我們在一個多元獲得飛手的一個管道之下我既然有採購這個形式的那我們就在這個履約裡面要求他幫我培訓輔導民航機1A或是他各類型乃至於322C等等符合他需求的考照\n\n35\n00:12:32,139 --> 00:12:57,316\n那這個事實上在民航法裡面的規定我們屬於軍用的裝備我們是只要有專長他是秉儲在外但是我這個人員回來第一個我可以納入我的師資我要擔任師資的第一個我要有民航局的證照第二個其實在未來的訓練我們也期望能夠讓部隊每個人都成為所謂的無人機操作手這也是我們的目標所以越多的符合民航局證照的師資等級的\n\n36\n00:12:58,757 --> 00:13:02,200\n他在單位裡面擴訊資訊這對我們是有幫助的以上報告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t149\t沈委員好部長好\n16502\t44556\t那這個我們一開始就切入這個政體就是說這一次這個民防法這個國民黨有提出一些修正那我蠻希望權動署能夠先做一些溝通因為第一件事情就是說因為他們的宣稱是說他們不要讓學生上戰場等等之類的那他們這次動的呢就是有在我上面寫的這個民防法第二條那民防法第二條呢他指的是民防的工作範圍1到9那他們是直接把第四款\n45556\t46738\t支援軍事勤務\n60576\t87073\t搶修機場：協助運輸：對空間事：情報：傷患作業：如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事請勿的規定那麼以後民防在暫時的時候右邊這邊事情全部都不能做了所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的那他們的宣稱說這一個因為是學生的關係目前是希望權動署能夠跟教育部溝通\n87873\t113539\t因為按照我們現在的法律教育部要做相關的動員按照權動法就他有自己的分類計劃所以教育部是可以自己決定的所以民防的範圍很大包含這一些也包含志願軍師勤務但教育部對於自己的學生的動員跟那個分類計劃要不要包含這個是他自己可以決定的他自己可以限縮而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說他把軍警\n114719\t115040\t沈伯洋\n130840\t149153\t畢竟他的專長在跟教育相關並不是這一個方面所以權動署的角色真的是我覺得很吃重啦我昨天也有提到是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應說現在的做法其實就已經是這個樣子了那另外也是希望就是民防法我認為支援軍事情務這一塊\n150074\t151175\t第一點就是說學校的這些學生的任務他本身是在做這個校園的一個防護\n176375\t176655\t沈伯洋議員\n192328\t193449\t沈伯洋\n212142\t235690\t將這個整個拿掉可能會是的確會有一些這樣的問題不過因為這個主管機關的是內政部那我想我們的立場當然應該是說我們尊重委員的提案權但是涉及民安法跟相關的執法我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情好 謝謝然後再請幫忙提醒一下因為這真的是蠻重要的不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會\n237230\t250363\t好那這一個再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情那這一個有後來其實有到辦公室其實有問就是說到底有沒有這一個事項那是不是是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下謝謝\n253371\t268650\t陸軍常務長向委員報告在上週委員提詢之後10月17號我們了解了到委員辦公室說明那確實在10月10號休假營外是有58炮子部是有事關發生一個營外的\n269611\t270112\t沈伯洋委員\n286232\t286452\t以上報告\n305197\t329410\t謝謝沈部長,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的,因為內規上,而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的這些規定,那原作其實在2020年的時候呢,本來有說想要弄到內規,那其實是沒有的嘛,所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候,他就不應該,他沒有那個依據,沒有那個依據的話,應該一切都回歸到法律的規定,還有人事的規定,這真的是非常的重要,所以真的是很希望就是說,這樣的事情不要再發生。\n330650\t355776\t委員好 對不起 我是董事長 跟您補充一下剛才在檢討的部分 非常謝謝委員的指導 論上我都說過了但要跟委員說明這件事情 這跟連坐法是兩件事第一個 榮譽價不是處分 就是沒有收回他的權益榮譽價是為了一個單位 他個人 如果立法統一的手段我給你的榮譽價 可能提到幾個小時但是如果沒有榮譽價 並不是處分 這點要核心序名第二個 他這個人犯的錯 是主觀針對說\n357376\t385187\t等一下等一下等一下他不管是不是處分但重點是處罰到不是那個行為人沒有他不是他是收回給你的獎勵他只是收回獎勵這不是處分對但是今天跟處分無關今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來是這個我們會檢討這個要實質跟委員不同說明這個對所以不能夠用這樣的一個方式讓無關的人被捲入這其實是非常重要的事情是是是所以我覺得這真的因為畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做\n386047\t413502\t他沒有一個直接的法律的授權所以如果說今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候他必須要有別的授權的規定那這是 抱歉這個委員請讓我再講10秒鐘就是也沒有法律依據要給他這個榮譽假我要舉一個例子譬如說我現在選橘光楷模如果我因為我的單位我的單位喔有人觸犯經濟我是直接拿掉我根本沒有資格進這個橘光楷模的名單這是我們軍中對整肅軍艦提升榮譽的一個做法那至於做法上不當然剛剛參議長講過我們會指導謝謝委員\n415683\t441354\t因為畢竟內部的規定當時就是希望不需要再有連坐的事情發生所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人他可能是督導的人但是因為督導的人我們之前在督導的人也有提過就是說如果他今天在比如說在這個休假之前他都已經有宣導什麼等等之類的他也不會被處分這都是之前有講過的事情所以真的必須要注意因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷的發生的話這個是上面沒有辦法下達\n442835\t443777\t這次副部長有提到\n453315\t479757\t國軍推放這個全民國防教育培訓的講習說要廣出民間師資的能量這確實是好事但是我們面臨了兩個狀況這個是之前就已經有講過的一個就是在這個市政府這一邊在台北市政府還在替代役的藝男進軍召集的時候放了這個抖音的影片當然我也是要幫他澄清一下他那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的他就是一個抖音影片而已\n480037\t480417\t臺中新兵入營遊覽車\n495345\t522884\t所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關\n523564\t552226\t那我們如果為了要避免類似像這樣的狀況發生以國防部的立場有沒有什麼對策委員好 跟委員報告一下國防部他上次委員有提出來這個問題我們做了幾個檢討第一個就是我們現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司廠商已經完成一個合約的一個協定那現在就是最後階段在做一個採購式的一個修約的方式我們第一個就限制他所有的人到車上之後\n552987\t571479\t按照交通部的規定實施交通的法規跟安全的事項宣導之後那就不會有任何影片的播放那這一段是第一個那第二個您剛剛提到返鄉專車他是福利委員自己找過來的我們透過我們一定到位的方式向所有的單位先做個宣導第二個\n572279\t591933\t在上車之前會有相關的保防檢查單位去做個說明就是說按照這樣的方式來做事情那這樣的話就是這兩方面來跟委員做個報告感謝 因為我覺得當然以契約的精神來講就是說你本來應該要做什麼結果他沒做那當然就是在返鄉專車這邊他畢竟因為不是你們直接去找\n592313\t613538\t所以如果有相關的措施我覺得是重要的那至於地方政府那這個就是另外一件事情我們可能就也沒有必要在這邊討論那接下來呢就是今天的主要的這個無人機這個我之前有問過所以只是想問後來評估的這個結果就是因為今天呢在整個雅創這個腹地它其實有點小而且民雄那邊的建築物也多\n614278\t634499\t所以就是他們在做這一個是非的時候你看它這一個沙河它目前只有大概50公里嘛50公里那我知道國防部之前好像有提過就是說可以可能往海飛啊或什麼等等之類的那現在就是說跟因為這是要跟民航局什麼等等之類的協調然後往東部的海域可能去走那只是想問一下因為這之前問過想追蹤一下後續這個評估的狀況為何\n637622\t666156\t跟委員報告我們現在跟嘉義縣政府一起在合作我們希望能夠在嘉義的役族做一個專門的試飛場域那這個腹地大概有多大會往海上飛嗎還是還是會往海上飛的部分那這樣的話目前來講對於這些廠商他要做測試要做沙盒之類的他會不會有什麼困難我們真正的困難其實在民航局法規的說法那目前來講民航局的態度呢\n667285\t685355\t因為它還是需要要有四行認證的部分那這個部分我們還在看怎麼去把法規來做鬆綁因為我覺得畢竟我們已經和了無人機國家隊已經有一陣子了那接下來也有可能跟各國的這種無人機的合作那這種算是一種基礎設施的建制這個如果先做好了後續要做才會變得比較方便\n686655\t712282\t還有另外一個就是跟飛手有關的這個之前有稍微問過國防部但是就是說請我覺得在公眾的這一個針對這個民眾來做一個說明就是目前去用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用是不一樣的但我們看到我們目前飛手訓練這邊的這一個標案上面他就有提到說先要考取民航局無人機的這個證照就是他要用一個先行就是你要先取得這個證照之後後續才可以做這一個\n712602\t712962\t入軍舊無人機飛訓練中心\n724552\t751639\t向委員報告有關於您講這個我們在標案裡面有就是有要求要考照的這個這個第一個他是我們在一個多元獲得飛手的一個管道之下我既然有採購這個形式的那我們就在這個履約裡面要求他幫我培訓輔導民航機1A或是他各類型乃至於322C等等符合他需求的考照\n752139\t777316\t那這個事實上在民航法裡面的規定我們屬於軍用的裝備我們是只要有專長他是秉儲在外但是我這個人員回來第一個我可以納入我的師資我要擔任師資的第一個我要有民航局的證照第二個其實在未來的訓練我們也期望能夠讓部隊每個人都成為所謂的無人機操作手這也是我們的目標所以越多的符合民航局證照的師資等級的\n778757\t782200\t他在單位裡面擴訊資訊這對我們是有幫助的以上報告\n","txt":"沈委員好部長好\n那這個我們一開始就切入這個政體就是說這一次這個民防法這個國民黨有提出一些修正那我蠻希望權動署能夠先做一些溝通因為第一件事情就是說因為他們的宣稱是說他們不要讓學生上戰場等等之類的那他們這次動的呢就是有在我上面寫的這個民防法第二條那民防法第二條呢他指的是民防的工作範圍1到9那他們是直接把第四款\n支援軍事勤務\n搶修機場：協助運輸：對空間事：情報：傷患作業：如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事請勿的規定那麼以後民防在暫時的時候右邊這邊事情全部都不能做了所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的那他們的宣稱說這一個因為是學生的關係目前是希望權動署能夠跟教育部溝通\n因為按照我們現在的法律教育部要做相關的動員按照權動法就他有自己的分類計劃所以教育部是可以自己決定的所以民防的範圍很大包含這一些也包含志願軍師勤務但教育部對於自己的學生的動員跟那個分類計劃要不要包含這個是他自己可以決定的他自己可以限縮而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說他把軍警\n沈伯洋\n畢竟他的專長在跟教育相關並不是這一個方面所以權動署的角色真的是我覺得很吃重啦我昨天也有提到是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應說現在的做法其實就已經是這個樣子了那另外也是希望就是民防法我認為支援軍事情務這一塊\n第一點就是說學校的這些學生的任務他本身是在做這個校園的一個防護\n沈伯洋議員\n沈伯洋\n將這個整個拿掉可能會是的確會有一些這樣的問題不過因為這個主管機關的是內政部那我想我們的立場當然應該是說我們尊重委員的提案權但是涉及民安法跟相關的執法我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情好 謝謝然後再請幫忙提醒一下因為這真的是蠻重要的不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會\n好那這一個再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情那這一個有後來其實有到辦公室其實有問就是說到底有沒有這一個事項那是不是是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下謝謝\n陸軍常務長向委員報告在上週委員提詢之後10月17號我們了解了到委員辦公室說明那確實在10月10號休假營外是有58炮子部是有事關發生一個營外的\n沈伯洋委員\n以上報告\n謝謝沈部長,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的,因為內規上,而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的這些規定,那原作其實在2020年的時候呢,本來有說想要弄到內規,那其實是沒有的嘛,所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候,他就不應該,他沒有那個依據,沒有那個依據的話,應該一切都回歸到法律的規定,還有人事的規定,這真的是非常的重要,所以真的是很希望就是說,這樣的事情不要再發生。\n委員好 對不起 我是董事長 跟您補充一下剛才在檢討的部分 非常謝謝委員的指導 論上我都說過了但要跟委員說明這件事情 這跟連坐法是兩件事第一個 榮譽價不是處分 就是沒有收回他的權益榮譽價是為了一個單位 他個人 如果立法統一的手段我給你的榮譽價 可能提到幾個小時但是如果沒有榮譽價 並不是處分 這點要核心序名第二個 他這個人犯的錯 是主觀針對說\n等一下等一下等一下他不管是不是處分但重點是處罰到不是那個行為人沒有他不是他是收回給你的獎勵他只是收回獎勵這不是處分對但是今天跟處分無關今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來是這個我們會檢討這個要實質跟委員不同說明這個對所以不能夠用這樣的一個方式讓無關的人被捲入這其實是非常重要的事情是是是所以我覺得這真的因為畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做\n他沒有一個直接的法律的授權所以如果說今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候他必須要有別的授權的規定那這是 抱歉這個委員請讓我再講10秒鐘就是也沒有法律依據要給他這個榮譽假我要舉一個例子譬如說我現在選橘光楷模如果我因為我的單位我的單位喔有人觸犯經濟我是直接拿掉我根本沒有資格進這個橘光楷模的名單這是我們軍中對整肅軍艦提升榮譽的一個做法那至於做法上不當然剛剛參議長講過我們會指導謝謝委員\n因為畢竟內部的規定當時就是希望不需要再有連坐的事情發生所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人他可能是督導的人但是因為督導的人我們之前在督導的人也有提過就是說如果他今天在比如說在這個休假之前他都已經有宣導什麼等等之類的他也不會被處分這都是之前有講過的事情所以真的必須要注意因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷的發生的話這個是上面沒有辦法下達\n這次副部長有提到\n國軍推放這個全民國防教育培訓的講習說要廣出民間師資的能量這確實是好事但是我們面臨了兩個狀況這個是之前就已經有講過的一個就是在這個市政府這一邊在台北市政府還在替代役的藝男進軍召集的時候放了這個抖音的影片當然我也是要幫他澄清一下他那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的他就是一個抖音影片而已\n臺中新兵入營遊覽車\n所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關\n那我們如果為了要避免類似像這樣的狀況發生以國防部的立場有沒有什麼對策委員好 跟委員報告一下國防部他上次委員有提出來這個問題我們做了幾個檢討第一個就是我們現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司廠商已經完成一個合約的一個協定那現在就是最後階段在做一個採購式的一個修約的方式我們第一個就限制他所有的人到車上之後\n按照交通部的規定實施交通的法規跟安全的事項宣導之後那就不會有任何影片的播放那這一段是第一個那第二個您剛剛提到返鄉專車他是福利委員自己找過來的我們透過我們一定到位的方式向所有的單位先做個宣導第二個\n在上車之前會有相關的保防檢查單位去做個說明就是說按照這樣的方式來做事情那這樣的話就是這兩方面來跟委員做個報告感謝 因為我覺得當然以契約的精神來講就是說你本來應該要做什麼結果他沒做那當然就是在返鄉專車這邊他畢竟因為不是你們直接去找\n所以如果有相關的措施我覺得是重要的那至於地方政府那這個就是另外一件事情我們可能就也沒有必要在這邊討論那接下來呢就是今天的主要的這個無人機這個我之前有問過所以只是想問後來評估的這個結果就是因為今天呢在整個雅創這個腹地它其實有點小而且民雄那邊的建築物也多\n所以就是他們在做這一個是非的時候你看它這一個沙河它目前只有大概50公里嘛50公里那我知道國防部之前好像有提過就是說可以可能往海飛啊或什麼等等之類的那現在就是說跟因為這是要跟民航局什麼等等之類的協調然後往東部的海域可能去走那只是想問一下因為這之前問過想追蹤一下後續這個評估的狀況為何\n跟委員報告我們現在跟嘉義縣政府一起在合作我們希望能夠在嘉義的役族做一個專門的試飛場域那這個腹地大概有多大會往海上飛嗎還是還是會往海上飛的部分那這樣的話目前來講對於這些廠商他要做測試要做沙盒之類的他會不會有什麼困難我們真正的困難其實在民航局法規的說法那目前來講民航局的態度呢\n因為它還是需要要有四行認證的部分那這個部分我們還在看怎麼去把法規來做鬆綁因為我覺得畢竟我們已經和了無人機國家隊已經有一陣子了那接下來也有可能跟各國的這種無人機的合作那這種算是一種基礎設施的建制這個如果先做好了後續要做才會變得比較方便\n還有另外一個就是跟飛手有關的這個之前有稍微問過國防部但是就是說請我覺得在公眾的這一個針對這個民眾來做一個說明就是目前去用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用是不一樣的但我們看到我們目前飛手訓練這邊的這一個標案上面他就有提到說先要考取民航局無人機的這個證照就是他要用一個先行就是你要先取得這個證照之後後續才可以做這一個\n入軍舊無人機飛訓練中心\n向委員報告有關於您講這個我們在標案裡面有就是有要求要考照的這個這個第一個他是我們在一個多元獲得飛手的一個管道之下我既然有採購這個形式的那我們就在這個履約裡面要求他幫我培訓輔導民航機1A或是他各類型乃至於322C等等符合他需求的考照\n那這個事實上在民航法裡面的規定我們屬於軍用的裝備我們是只要有專長他是秉儲在外但是我這個人員回來第一個我可以納入我的師資我要擔任師資的第一個我要有民航局的證照第二個其實在未來的訓練我們也期望能夠讓部隊每個人都成為所謂的無人機操作手這也是我們的目標所以越多的符合民航局證照的師資等級的\n他在單位裡面擴訊資訊這對我們是有幫助的以上報告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:00.149\n沈委員好部長好\n\n00:16.502 --> 00:44.556\n那這個我們一開始就切入這個政體就是說這一次這個民防法這個國民黨有提出一些修正那我蠻希望權動署能夠先做一些溝通因為第一件事情就是說因為他們的宣稱是說他們不要讓學生上戰場等等之類的那他們這次動的呢就是有在我上面寫的這個民防法第二條那民防法第二條呢他指的是民防的工作範圍1到9那他們是直接把第四款\n\n00:45.556 --> 00:46.738\n支援軍事勤務\n\n01:00.576 --> 01:27.073\n搶修機場：協助運輸：對空間事：情報：傷患作業：如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事請勿的規定那麼以後民防在暫時的時候右邊這邊事情全部都不能做了所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的那他們的宣稱說這一個因為是學生的關係目前是希望權動署能夠跟教育部溝通\n\n01:27.873 --> 01:53.539\n因為按照我們現在的法律教育部要做相關的動員按照權動法就他有自己的分類計劃所以教育部是可以自己決定的所以民防的範圍很大包含這一些也包含志願軍師勤務但教育部對於自己的學生的動員跟那個分類計劃要不要包含這個是他自己可以決定的他自己可以限縮而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說他把軍警\n\n01:54.719 --> 01:55.040\n沈伯洋\n\n02:10.840 --> 02:29.153\n畢竟他的專長在跟教育相關並不是這一個方面所以權動署的角色真的是我覺得很吃重啦我昨天也有提到是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應說現在的做法其實就已經是這個樣子了那另外也是希望就是民防法我認為支援軍事情務這一塊\n\n02:30.074 --> 02:31.175\n第一點就是說學校的這些學生的任務他本身是在做這個校園的一個防護\n\n02:56.375 --> 02:56.655\n沈伯洋議員\n\n03:12.328 --> 03:13.449\n沈伯洋\n\n03:32.142 --> 03:55.690\n將這個整個拿掉可能會是的確會有一些這樣的問題不過因為這個主管機關的是內政部那我想我們的立場當然應該是說我們尊重委員的提案權但是涉及民安法跟相關的執法我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情好謝謝然後再請幫忙提醒一下因為這真的是蠻重要的不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會\n\n03:57.230 --> 04:10.363\n好那這一個再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情那這一個有後來其實有到辦公室其實有問就是說到底有沒有這一個事項那是不是是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下謝謝\n\n04:13.371 --> 04:28.650\n陸軍常務長向委員報告在上週委員提詢之後10月17號我們了解了到委員辦公室說明那確實在10月10號休假營外是有58炮子部是有事關發生一個營外的\n\n04:29.611 --> 04:30.112\n沈伯洋委員\n\n04:46.232 --> 04:46.452\n以上報告\n\n05:05.197 --> 05:29.410\n謝謝沈部長,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的,因為內規上,而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的這些規定,那原作其實在2020年的時候呢,本來有說想要弄到內規,那其實是沒有的嘛,所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候,他就不應該,他沒有那個依據,沒有那個依據的話,應該一切都回歸到法律的規定,還有人事的規定,這真的是非常的重要,所以真的是很希望就是說,這樣的事情不要再發生。\n\n05:30.650 --> 05:55.776\n委員好對不起我是董事長跟您補充一下剛才在檢討的部分非常謝謝委員的指導論上我都說過了但要跟委員說明這件事情這跟連坐法是兩件事第一個榮譽價不是處分就是沒有收回他的權益榮譽價是為了一個單位他個人如果立法統一的手段我給你的榮譽價可能提到幾個小時但是如果沒有榮譽價並不是處分這點要核心序名第二個他這個人犯的錯是主觀針對說\n\n05:57.376 --> 06:25.187\n等一下等一下等一下他不管是不是處分但重點是處罰到不是那個行為人沒有他不是他是收回給你的獎勵他只是收回獎勵這不是處分對但是今天跟處分無關今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來是這個我們會檢討這個要實質跟委員不同說明這個對所以不能夠用這樣的一個方式讓無關的人被捲入這其實是非常重要的事情是是是所以我覺得這真的因為畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做\n\n06:26.047 --> 06:53.502\n他沒有一個直接的法律的授權所以如果說今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候他必須要有別的授權的規定那這是抱歉這個委員請讓我再講10秒鐘就是也沒有法律依據要給他這個榮譽假我要舉一個例子譬如說我現在選橘光楷模如果我因為我的單位我的單位喔有人觸犯經濟我是直接拿掉我根本沒有資格進這個橘光楷模的名單這是我們軍中對整肅軍艦提升榮譽的一個做法那至於做法上不當然剛剛參議長講過我們會指導謝謝委員\n\n06:55.683 --> 07:21.354\n因為畢竟內部的規定當時就是希望不需要再有連坐的事情發生所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人他可能是督導的人但是因為督導的人我們之前在督導的人也有提過就是說如果他今天在比如說在這個休假之前他都已經有宣導什麼等等之類的他也不會被處分這都是之前有講過的事情所以真的必須要注意因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷的發生的話這個是上面沒有辦法下達\n\n07:22.835 --> 07:23.777\n這次副部長有提到\n\n07:33.315 --> 07:59.757\n國軍推放這個全民國防教育培訓的講習說要廣出民間師資的能量這確實是好事但是我們面臨了兩個狀況這個是之前就已經有講過的一個就是在這個市政府這一邊在台北市政府還在替代役的藝男進軍召集的時候放了這個抖音的影片當然我也是要幫他澄清一下他那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的他就是一個抖音影片而已\n\n08:00.037 --> 08:00.417\n臺中新兵入營遊覽車\n\n08:15.345 --> 08:42.884\n所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關\n\n08:43.564 --> 09:12.226\n那我們如果為了要避免類似像這樣的狀況發生以國防部的立場有沒有什麼對策委員好跟委員報告一下國防部他上次委員有提出來這個問題我們做了幾個檢討第一個就是我們現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司廠商已經完成一個合約的一個協定那現在就是最後階段在做一個採購式的一個修約的方式我們第一個就限制他所有的人到車上之後\n\n09:12.987 --> 09:31.479\n按照交通部的規定實施交通的法規跟安全的事項宣導之後那就不會有任何影片的播放那這一段是第一個那第二個您剛剛提到返鄉專車他是福利委員自己找過來的我們透過我們一定到位的方式向所有的單位先做個宣導第二個\n\n09:32.279 --> 09:51.933\n在上車之前會有相關的保防檢查單位去做個說明就是說按照這樣的方式來做事情那這樣的話就是這兩方面來跟委員做個報告感謝因為我覺得當然以契約的精神來講就是說你本來應該要做什麼結果他沒做那當然就是在返鄉專車這邊他畢竟因為不是你們直接去找\n\n09:52.313 --> 10:13.538\n所以如果有相關的措施我覺得是重要的那至於地方政府那這個就是另外一件事情我們可能就也沒有必要在這邊討論那接下來呢就是今天的主要的這個無人機這個我之前有問過所以只是想問後來評估的這個結果就是因為今天呢在整個雅創這個腹地它其實有點小而且民雄那邊的建築物也多\n\n10:14.278 --> 10:34.499\n所以就是他們在做這一個是非的時候你看它這一個沙河它目前只有大概50公里嘛50公里那我知道國防部之前好像有提過就是說可以可能往海飛啊或什麼等等之類的那現在就是說跟因為這是要跟民航局什麼等等之類的協調然後往東部的海域可能去走那只是想問一下因為這之前問過想追蹤一下後續這個評估的狀況為何\n\n10:37.622 --> 11:06.156\n跟委員報告我們現在跟嘉義縣政府一起在合作我們希望能夠在嘉義的役族做一個專門的試飛場域那這個腹地大概有多大會往海上飛嗎還是還是會往海上飛的部分那這樣的話目前來講對於這些廠商他要做測試要做沙盒之類的他會不會有什麼困難我們真正的困難其實在民航局法規的說法那目前來講民航局的態度呢\n\n11:07.285 --> 11:25.355\n因為它還是需要要有四行認證的部分那這個部分我們還在看怎麼去把法規來做鬆綁因為我覺得畢竟我們已經和了無人機國家隊已經有一陣子了那接下來也有可能跟各國的這種無人機的合作那這種算是一種基礎設施的建制這個如果先做好了後續要做才會變得比較方便\n\n11:26.655 --> 11:52.282\n還有另外一個就是跟飛手有關的這個之前有稍微問過國防部但是就是說請我覺得在公眾的這一個針對這個民眾來做一個說明就是目前去用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用是不一樣的但我們看到我們目前飛手訓練這邊的這一個標案上面他就有提到說先要考取民航局無人機的這個證照就是他要用一個先行就是你要先取得這個證照之後後續才可以做這一個\n\n11:52.602 --> 11:52.962\n入軍舊無人機飛訓練中心\n\n12:04.552 --> 12:31.639\n向委員報告有關於您講這個我們在標案裡面有就是有要求要考照的這個這個第一個他是我們在一個多元獲得飛手的一個管道之下我既然有採購這個形式的那我們就在這個履約裡面要求他幫我培訓輔導民航機1A或是他各類型乃至於322C等等符合他需求的考照\n\n12:32.139 --> 12:57.316\n那這個事實上在民航法裡面的規定我們屬於軍用的裝備我們是只要有專長他是秉儲在外但是我這個人員回來第一個我可以納入我的師資我要擔任師資的第一個我要有民航局的證照第二個其實在未來的訓練我們也期望能夠讓部隊每個人都成為所謂的無人機操作手這也是我們的目標所以越多的符合民航局證照的師資等級的\n\n12:58.757 --> 13:02.200\n他在單位裡面擴訊資訊這對我們是有幫助的以上報告\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.149,"text":"沈委員好部長好"},{"start":16.502,"end":44.556,"text":"那這個我們一開始就切入這個政體就是說這一次這個民防法這個國民黨有提出一些修正那我蠻希望權動署能夠先做一些溝通因為第一件事情就是說因為他們的宣稱是說他們不要讓學生上戰場等等之類的那他們這次動的呢就是有在我上面寫的這個民防法第二條那民防法第二條呢他指的是民防的工作範圍1到9那他們是直接把第四款"},{"start":45.556,"end":46.738,"text":"支援軍事勤務"},{"start":60.576,"end":87.073,"text":"搶修機場：協助運輸：對空間事：情報：傷患作業：如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事請勿的規定那麼以後民防在暫時的時候右邊這邊事情全部都不能做了所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的那他們的宣稱說這一個因為是學生的關係目前是希望權動署能夠跟教育部溝通"},{"start":87.873,"end":113.539,"text":"因為按照我們現在的法律教育部要做相關的動員按照權動法就他有自己的分類計劃所以教育部是可以自己決定的所以民防的範圍很大包含這一些也包含志願軍師勤務但教育部對於自己的學生的動員跟那個分類計劃要不要包含這個是他自己可以決定的他自己可以限縮而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說他把軍警"},{"start":114.719,"end":115.04,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":130.84,"end":149.153,"text":"畢竟他的專長在跟教育相關並不是這一個方面所以權動署的角色真的是我覺得很吃重啦我昨天也有提到是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應說現在的做法其實就已經是這個樣子了那另外也是希望就是民防法我認為支援軍事情務這一塊"},{"start":150.074,"end":151.175,"text":"第一點就是說學校的這些學生的任務他本身是在做這個校園的一個防護"},{"start":176.375,"end":176.655,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":192.328,"end":193.449,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":212.142,"end":235.69,"text":"將這個整個拿掉可能會是的確會有一些這樣的問題不過因為這個主管機關的是內政部那我想我們的立場當然應該是說我們尊重委員的提案權但是涉及民安法跟相關的執法我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情好 謝謝然後再請幫忙提醒一下因為這真的是蠻重要的不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會"},{"start":237.23,"end":250.363,"text":"好那這一個再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情那這一個有後來其實有到辦公室其實有問就是說到底有沒有這一個事項那是不是是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下謝謝"},{"start":253.371,"end":268.65,"text":"陸軍常務長向委員報告在上週委員提詢之後10月17號我們了解了到委員辦公室說明那確實在10月10號休假營外是有58炮子部是有事關發生一個營外的"},{"start":269.611,"end":270.112,"text":"沈伯洋委員"},{"start":286.232,"end":286.452,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":305.197,"end":329.41,"text":"謝謝沈部長,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的,因為內規上,而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的這些規定,那原作其實在2020年的時候呢,本來有說想要弄到內規,那其實是沒有的嘛,所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候,他就不應該,他沒有那個依據,沒有那個依據的話,應該一切都回歸到法律的規定,還有人事的規定,這真的是非常的重要,所以真的是很希望就是說,這樣的事情不要再發生。"},{"start":330.65,"end":355.776,"text":"委員好 對不起 我是董事長 跟您補充一下剛才在檢討的部分 非常謝謝委員的指導 論上我都說過了但要跟委員說明這件事情 這跟連坐法是兩件事第一個 榮譽價不是處分 就是沒有收回他的權益榮譽價是為了一個單位 他個人 如果立法統一的手段我給你的榮譽價 可能提到幾個小時但是如果沒有榮譽價 並不是處分 這點要核心序名第二個 他這個人犯的錯 是主觀針對說"},{"start":357.376,"end":385.187,"text":"等一下等一下等一下他不管是不是處分但重點是處罰到不是那個行為人沒有他不是他是收回給你的獎勵他只是收回獎勵這不是處分對但是今天跟處分無關今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來是這個我們會檢討這個要實質跟委員不同說明這個對所以不能夠用這樣的一個方式讓無關的人被捲入這其實是非常重要的事情是是是所以我覺得這真的因為畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做"},{"start":386.047,"end":413.502,"text":"他沒有一個直接的法律的授權所以如果說今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候他必須要有別的授權的規定那這是 抱歉這個委員請讓我再講10秒鐘就是也沒有法律依據要給他這個榮譽假我要舉一個例子譬如說我現在選橘光楷模如果我因為我的單位我的單位喔有人觸犯經濟我是直接拿掉我根本沒有資格進這個橘光楷模的名單這是我們軍中對整肅軍艦提升榮譽的一個做法那至於做法上不當然剛剛參議長講過我們會指導謝謝委員"},{"start":415.683,"end":441.354,"text":"因為畢竟內部的規定當時就是希望不需要再有連坐的事情發生所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人他可能是督導的人但是因為督導的人我們之前在督導的人也有提過就是說如果他今天在比如說在這個休假之前他都已經有宣導什麼等等之類的他也不會被處分這都是之前有講過的事情所以真的必須要注意因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷的發生的話這個是上面沒有辦法下達"},{"start":442.835,"end":443.777,"text":"這次副部長有提到"},{"start":453.315,"end":479.757,"text":"國軍推放這個全民國防教育培訓的講習說要廣出民間師資的能量這確實是好事但是我們面臨了兩個狀況這個是之前就已經有講過的一個就是在這個市政府這一邊在台北市政府還在替代役的藝男進軍召集的時候放了這個抖音的影片當然我也是要幫他澄清一下他那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的他就是一個抖音影片而已"},{"start":480.037,"end":480.417,"text":"臺中新兵入營遊覽車"},{"start":495.345,"end":522.884,"text":"所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關"},{"start":523.564,"end":552.226,"text":"那我們如果為了要避免類似像這樣的狀況發生以國防部的立場有沒有什麼對策委員好 跟委員報告一下國防部他上次委員有提出來這個問題我們做了幾個檢討第一個就是我們現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司廠商已經完成一個合約的一個協定那現在就是最後階段在做一個採購式的一個修約的方式我們第一個就限制他所有的人到車上之後"},{"start":552.987,"end":571.479,"text":"按照交通部的規定實施交通的法規跟安全的事項宣導之後那就不會有任何影片的播放那這一段是第一個那第二個您剛剛提到返鄉專車他是福利委員自己找過來的我們透過我們一定到位的方式向所有的單位先做個宣導第二個"},{"start":572.279,"end":591.933,"text":"在上車之前會有相關的保防檢查單位去做個說明就是說按照這樣的方式來做事情那這樣的話就是這兩方面來跟委員做個報告感謝 因為我覺得當然以契約的精神來講就是說你本來應該要做什麼結果他沒做那當然就是在返鄉專車這邊他畢竟因為不是你們直接去找"},{"start":592.313,"end":613.538,"text":"所以如果有相關的措施我覺得是重要的那至於地方政府那這個就是另外一件事情我們可能就也沒有必要在這邊討論那接下來呢就是今天的主要的這個無人機這個我之前有問過所以只是想問後來評估的這個結果就是因為今天呢在整個雅創這個腹地它其實有點小而且民雄那邊的建築物也多"},{"start":614.278,"end":634.499,"text":"所以就是他們在做這一個是非的時候你看它這一個沙河它目前只有大概50公里嘛50公里那我知道國防部之前好像有提過就是說可以可能往海飛啊或什麼等等之類的那現在就是說跟因為這是要跟民航局什麼等等之類的協調然後往東部的海域可能去走那只是想問一下因為這之前問過想追蹤一下後續這個評估的狀況為何"},{"start":637.622,"end":666.156,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在跟嘉義縣政府一起在合作我們希望能夠在嘉義的役族做一個專門的試飛場域那這個腹地大概有多大會往海上飛嗎還是還是會往海上飛的部分那這樣的話目前來講對於這些廠商他要做測試要做沙盒之類的他會不會有什麼困難我們真正的困難其實在民航局法規的說法那目前來講民航局的態度呢"},{"start":667.285,"end":685.355,"text":"因為它還是需要要有四行認證的部分那這個部分我們還在看怎麼去把法規來做鬆綁因為我覺得畢竟我們已經和了無人機國家隊已經有一陣子了那接下來也有可能跟各國的這種無人機的合作那這種算是一種基礎設施的建制這個如果先做好了後續要做才會變得比較方便"},{"start":686.655,"end":712.282,"text":"還有另外一個就是跟飛手有關的這個之前有稍微問過國防部但是就是說請我覺得在公眾的這一個針對這個民眾來做一個說明就是目前去用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用是不一樣的但我們看到我們目前飛手訓練這邊的這一個標案上面他就有提到說先要考取民航局無人機的這個證照就是他要用一個先行就是你要先取得這個證照之後後續才可以做這一個"},{"start":712.602,"end":712.962,"text":"入軍舊無人機飛訓練中心"},{"start":724.552,"end":751.639,"text":"向委員報告有關於您講這個我們在標案裡面有就是有要求要考照的這個這個第一個他是我們在一個多元獲得飛手的一個管道之下我既然有採購這個形式的那我們就在這個履約裡面要求他幫我培訓輔導民航機1A或是他各類型乃至於322C等等符合他需求的考照"},{"start":752.139,"end":777.316,"text":"那這個事實上在民航法裡面的規定我們屬於軍用的裝備我們是只要有專長他是秉儲在外但是我這個人員回來第一個我可以納入我的師資我要擔任師資的第一個我要有民航局的證照第二個其實在未來的訓練我們也期望能夠讓部隊每個人都成為所謂的無人機操作手這也是我們的目標所以越多的符合民航局證照的師資等級的"},{"start":778.757,"end":782.2,"text":"他在單位裡面擴訊資訊這對我們是有幫助的以上報告"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時54分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟全動署署長，謝謝。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好、署長好。我們一開始就切入正題，針對這一次的民防法，國民黨有提出一些修正，我滿希望全動署能夠先做一些溝通，因為他們是宣稱他們不要讓學生上戰場等等之類的，他們這次動的就是我上面寫的民防法第二條，民防法第二條指的是民防工作範圍一到九，他們是直接把第四款「支援軍事勤務」這6個字全部拿掉，這一條其實跟學生一點關係都沒有，這一條指的是全部的民防工作。而支援軍事勤務有哪些呢？在右邊施行細則第三條有規定，包括搶修機場、協助運輸、對空監視、情報、協助傷患作業。如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事勤務的規定，那麼以後民防在戰時的時候，右邊這些事情全部都不能做了，所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的，他們宣稱這個因為是學生的關係，目前是希望全動署能夠跟教育部溝通，因為按照我們現在的法律、按照全動法，教育部要做相關的動員，他有自己的分類計畫，所以教育部是可以自己決定的，而民防的範圍很大，包含這一些，也包含支援軍事勤務，但教育部對於自己學生的動員跟分類計畫要不要包含這個？是他自己可以決定的，他自己可以限縮。而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說，他把軍警相關的勤務除外了，所以按照道理來講，目前根本就沒有他們宣稱的狀況。","但是前幾天我看教育部長在回應的時候，他好像不是很清楚這件事情，這個我覺得是全動署要出面，畢竟部長的專長是跟教育相關，並不是這一方面，所以我覺得全動署的角色真的是很吃重，我昨天也有提到，是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情，讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應，說現在的作法其實就已經是這個樣子。另外，我認為民防法中支援軍事勤務這一塊，因為民防法第一條就已經規定平時跟戰時的任務，如果你把民防工作的第四款拿掉，那戰時的任務基本上根本就等於不存在，所以這一點希望全動署能夠去幫忙溝通一下。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一點，學校學生的任務本身是在做校園的防護，發揮自救、互救的功能。因為民防法的主管機關是內政部，確實剛剛委員有指教，因為他民防的團是一個很大的團體，所以按照這個施行細則相關規定，他會有一些民防團隊的人員，如果發生戰時的狀況的時候，是要配合做這些事情，但不是在講學生要做這些事情，所以將這個整個拿掉，的確會有一些這樣的問題。不過因為這個的主管機關是內政部，我們的立場應該是，我們尊重委員的提案權，但是涉及民防法跟相關的子法，我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝，再請幫忙提醒一下，因為這真的是滿重要的，不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會。","再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情，後來其實有到辦公室，也有問到底有沒有這個事項，是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下？謝謝。"],["陳參謀長建義：陸軍參謀長向委員報告。在上週委員提詢之後，10月17日我們了解了並到委員辦公室說明，確實在10月10日休假期間，58砲指部是有士官發生一個營外酒後滋事的行為，單位在收假後召開了檢討會，的確指揮官也下達了這樣的指示，後面執行了一天，也跟單位做了說明之後，事實上就取消了，我們也利用我們的人事通報再次的要求，這個個案應該是做當事人的營外行為的檢討跟適處，而不要再去做類似為了維護全連榮譽來共同約制這樣子的要求。以上報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝參謀長，因為我覺得這個真的是滿重要的，因為內規上……而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的規定。其實在2020年的時候，本來有說想要將連坐弄到內規，但後來是沒有的，所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候，他就不應該、他也沒有那個依據，沒有那個依據的話，應該一切都回歸到法律的規定和人事的規定，這真的是非常的重要，所以真的是希望這樣的事情不要再發生。"],["章總督察長元勲：委員好，我是總督長，跟您補充一下。剛才在檢討的部分，非常謝謝委員的指導，理論上我都說過了，但要跟委員說明一件事情，這跟連坐法是兩件事，第一個，榮譽假不是處分，就是沒有收回他的權益，榮譽假是為了一個單位，他個人如果領導統御的手段，我給你的榮譽假可能提早幾個小時，但是如果沒有榮譽假，並不是處分，這點要合先敘明。第二個，他這個人犯的錯，是主觀針對說我要檢討作為……"],["沈委員伯洋：等一下、等一下，他不管是不是處分，但重點是處罰到的不是那個行為人。"],["章總督察長元勲：沒有，他不是，他是收回給你的獎勵，他只是收回獎勵，這不是處分。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是今天跟處分無關……"],["章總督察長元勲：對，這個我們執行的過程要說明清楚的。"],["沈委員伯洋：今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來……"],["章總督察長元勲：是，這個我們會檢討，這個要跟委員補充說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，所以不能夠用這樣的方式讓無關的人被捲入，這其實是非常重要的事。"],["章總督察長元勲：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做，他沒有一個直接的法律授權，所以如果今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候，他必須要有別的授權。"],["章總督察長元勲：抱歉，委員，請讓我再講10秒鐘。就是也沒有法令依據要給他這個榮譽假，我要舉一個例子，譬如說我現在在選莒光楷模，如果我因為我的單位有人觸犯軍紀，我是會被直接拿掉，我根本沒有資格進莒光楷模的名單，這是我們軍中對整肅軍紀和提升榮譽的作法。至於作法上不當，剛剛參謀長講過，我們會指導，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟內部的規定，當時就是不希望再有連坐的事情發生嘛！"],["章總督察長元勲：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人，他可能是督導的人，但是因為督導的人，我們之前在……"],["章總督察長元勲：瞭解，作法上我們一定改進。"],["沈委員伯洋：督導的人也有提過，譬如說今天在休假之前，他都已經有宣導什麼之類的，他也不會被處分，這都是之前有講過的事情。"],["章總督察長元勲：是，這些都要加強。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以真的必須要注意，因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷地發生的話，這個是上命沒有辦法下達。"],["章總督察長元勲：不會、不會。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來是國防師資，這次副部長其實也有提到國軍推動全民國防教育培訓的講習，然後說要廣儲民間師資能量，這確實是好事，但是我們面臨了兩個狀況，這個是之前就已經有講過的，一個就是在臺北市政府，他的替代役役男進去召集的時候放了這個抖音的影片，當然我也要幫他澄清一下，那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的，它就是一個抖音影片而已，目前市政府兵役局是說，他是為了充實量能。再來就是臺中，臺中市在新兵入營的遊覽車上，他這一次放的就真的是跟解放軍相關的影片。我知道這個都是地方政府的權責，所以我現在要問的並不是地方政府要怎麼做，那個是給地方議會他們來處理的，我這邊想要列出來的是，目前士兵往來坐車的狀況有三個：一個是新兵入營，這跟地方政府有關；一個是返鄉專車；一個是國軍委商的交通車，我想問的是後兩者。因為返鄉專車可能跟福委有關，就是福委自己找的，對不對？國軍委商的交通車就會直接跟國防部有關。為了避免類似這樣的狀況發生，以國防部的立場來說有沒有什麼對策？"],["陳次長道輝：委員好。跟委員報告，上次委員提出這問題後，我們做了幾個檢討。現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司、廠商已經完成合約協定，現正在做最後階段的採購式修約，所以第一個，我們限制所有人到車上之後，按照交通部規定實施交通法規與安全事項宣導後，就不會有任何影片播放，這是第一個。第二個，您剛剛提到的返鄉專車是福利委員自己找來的，我們透過一令到位的方式，先向所有單位宣導，且在上車之前會有相關的保防、監察單位去做說明，目前我們按照這樣的方式來做事，就這兩方面跟委員報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝。以契約精神來講，本來應該要做什麼結果沒做。當然，返鄉專車畢竟因為不是你們直接找來的，所以如果能實施相關措施，我覺得是重要的。至於地方政府，那就是另外一件事，沒有必要在這邊討論。","接下來就是今天主題無人機。這個我之前有問過，所以想問後來評估的結果。由於亞創的腹地其實有點小，且民雄那邊的建築物也多，所以在做試飛時，像這個沙盒大概就只有50公里。我知道國防部之前好像有提過可能往海上飛或什麼等等之類的，但這要跟民航局等協調，然後往東部海域走。因為這問題之前問過，所以想問一下、追蹤一下後續的評估狀況為何？"],["李院長世強：跟委員報告，我們現在跟嘉義縣政府合作，希望能夠在嘉義義竹做專門的試飛場域。"],["沈委員伯洋：腹地大概有多大？會往海上飛嗎？還是……"],["李院長世強：還是會有往海上飛的部分。"],["沈委員伯洋：這樣對這些要做測試、要做沙盒之類的廠商來講會不會有什麼困難？"],["李院長世強：真正的困難其實是在民航局法規的鬆綁。"],["沈委員伯洋：目前民航局的態度呢？"],["李院長世強：因為還是需要適航認證，所以這部分我們還在看怎麼鬆綁法規。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟我們已經喊無人機國家隊有一陣子了，接下來也有可能跟各國的無人機合作，這算是一種基礎設施的建置，這個如果先做好了，後續要做才會變得比較方便。","另外，跟飛手有關的，這個之前有稍微問過國防部，也請國防部就公眾部分向民眾來做說明。軍用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用不一樣，但目前針對飛手訓練的標案上有提到，要先考取民航局無人機證照，也就是要得取證照先行後，後續才可以做相關的培訓計畫，這是針對教官，還是之後所有的飛手都要這樣？是不是可以說明一下？"],["顧部長立雄：請陸軍就無人機訓練中心說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，有關委員提及標案裡要求考照這點，第一個，這是我們多元獲得飛手的管道，既然有採購這個形式的，那麼我們就在履約中要求他幫我培訓，輔導民航機1a考照，或是各類型乃至於3d、2c等，符合他需求的考照。事實上就民航法規定來說，我們屬於軍用裝備可摒除在外，只要有專長即可。但這個人員回來可以納入師資，而擔任師資的第一要件就是民航局的證照；第二個，其實在未來的訓練裡，我們也希望能讓部隊每個人都成為無人機操作手，這也是我們的目標。所以有越多人符合民航局證照的師資等級，他在單位裡擴訓、自訓，對我們是有幫助的。以上報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，謝謝。因為時間關係，後面有關AI及其他有關無人機的問題就下次再說，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。部長請回。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}}