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{\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 776.855, \"end\": 776.995, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"語\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 776.995, \"end\": 777.355, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 777.355, \"end\": 777.535, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 777.535, \"end\": 777.715, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 777.715, \"end\": 777.956, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 777.956, \"end\": 778.056, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 778.056, \"end\": 778.136, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 778.136, \"end\": 778.256, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 778.256, \"end\": 778.376, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"拉\", \"start\": 778.376, \"end\": 778.576, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 778.576, \"end\": 778.736, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 778.736, \"end\": 778.756, \"score\": 0.633}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"郭\", \"start\": 781.635, \"end\": 781.775, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 781.775, \"end\": 782.756, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"彭\", \"start\": 782.756, \"end\": 782.936, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 782.936, \"end\": 783.077, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 783.077, \"end\": 783.277, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 783.277, \"end\": 783.377, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 783.377, \"end\": 783.517, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 783.517, \"end\": 783.617, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 783.617, \"end\": 783.637, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,029 --> 00:00:25,404\n請彭主委謝謝委員長主委好我想那個金礦加速太多大家希望金礦能夠合併都一直有這樣的聲音不過最近受到矚目在上個月的時候有關於中信要收購星光人獸的案子當中我覺得要有制度面當中要來跟那個主委來做一個探討\n\n2\n00:00:26,823 --> 00:00:51,783\n有幾項第一個就是說我們明明在2018年的時候已經修正通過的金融控股公司投資管理辦法的部分就是以10%來定義原來是所謂控制性的持股然後把它明確有把它數字化但是以中信提出來的他們要收購介於10%到51%之間但金管會卻說10%無法確定絕對的控制力那明明投資計畫書已經寫10到\n\n3\n00:00:53,644 --> 00:00:55,065\n還有一段時間啊主委\n\n4\n00:01:22,346 --> 00:01:27,407\n10%是你們那個金管會的規定欸為什麼10%就沒有不然你就把10%改掉啊是我們最近呢也開始來檢討這件事情改天那一家寫10%也不行那就按照你的管理辦法改的啊\n\n5\n00:01:46,142 --> 00:02:08,882\n這個10%只是一個門檻要看條件而定對你們寫就是10%嘛10到51%那你只要寫10到51%為什麼你確定他做這個到10%就會停止你怎麼憑什麼去做這樣的主觀認定這第一個我要挑戰你的是說你的10%是你們定的控制性十股把他數據化也是你們定的你憑什麼認定說這個個案沒有辦法\n\n6\n00:02:11,993 --> 00:02:27,564\n這第一個第二個荒謬的地方在哪裡呢依照公開收購公行公司的有價證券的管理辦法第8條當中你得以現金跟有價證券的方式用對價的方式來進行收購那你們又提出說要百分之\n\n7\n00:02:29,144 --> 00:02:53,570\n是跟委員報告一下這個是公開收購辦法但是呢金控投資只是說你如果經過核准以後三個月之內你要用公開收購辦法一次購足其實當年時候呢其實等於說我們的金控整併是公開收購的特別規定就是說我們今天來講一般的公開收購確實如政企局他們訂的對一般公司適用他有說有現金跟股票\n\n8\n00:02:54,130 --> 00:03:09,373\n但是我們從過去的例子裡面我們有這麼多案例裡面只有六件包括所有的是有含股票大部分都以現金其實一樣這個概念那以後你就標示清楚嘛對不對這個確實法規上面我們沒有寫很清楚不過對啊你們要標示清楚啊\n\n9\n00:03:10,934 --> 00:03:22,978\n明明法是這樣的規定你要說這個一定要怎樣怎樣你就事後來做一個說明解釋yesorno都是你在講的那依照法來做申請不就出了問題我現在不是問中心講話我是用體制的方式講話相當於如果要合併合併、金控合併的話你總要一個明確的遊戲規則出來嘛確實遊戲規則明確是非常重要非常重要齁\n\n10\n00:03:34,182 --> 00:04:00,512\n第三個你又說你無法掌控新光人壽的損益新光人壽是何起大的一個金融公司而且它常常出了很多有的沒有的狀況不論是投資錯誤或者是不斷的被金管會裁罰這個就第三者來說怎麼一下子可以理解新光人壽的財務狀況呢我如果沒有進去當董事的話我講白一點即便當董事當了一年還搞不好不一定理解\n\n11\n00:04:01,158 --> 00:04:01,659\n財務狀況要掌握財務狀況掌握\n\n12\n00:04:27,452 --> 00:04:27,712\n主委接下來我們還有機會推動這個合併案\n\n13\n00:04:53,115 --> 00:05:17,146\n你不要太多的行政解釋的空間讓法令上的規範流於形式不論10%的量化也是你們弄的還有包括這個規範那個股票的對價收購也是你們弄的還有包括所謂的第三人這種情況底下如何了解購併對象的一個財務狀況這個都過於嚴苛啦我覺得不是因人設事是因人來堵事\n\n14\n00:05:18,246 --> 00:05:18,366\n主委\n\n15\n00:05:37,739 --> 00:05:57,357\n你論述的能力很強但是我的時間不夠麻煩書面補充是沒問題我再跟委員仔細說明第二個的部分我就教於你的部分最近的這個南非的政治風險增加為什麼因為他要求我們無理的不合法的要求我們撤銷這個代表處離開他的手足\n\n16\n00:05:58,696 --> 00:06:19,243\n這種情況底下不禁讓我聯想到我們最近的統計的結果我們不論是在基金的投資總共南非幣計價基金379檔高達2286億另外還有保單投資型保單另外還有包括其他的南非幣的商品等等夯不啷噹加起來大概4000億\n\n17\n00:06:20,623 --> 00:06:45,746\n我能不能請你估計一下這4000億是不是正確你會後給我一份資料沒問題我來把那個詳細這個風險指數相當的高這其實推估的出來第二個的部分第二個的部分呢他對於南非這樣的處理我們不禁想到一件事情就之前俄羅斯攻在的時候彩雷的經驗因為烏俄戰爭的關係那時候我們就要求金管會金管會也同意要將政經風險納入那我問啊\n\n18\n00:06:47,608 --> 00:07:02,601\n南非這樣的情況底下符不符合政經風險的部分有沒有必要性把它提高它的風險權數是我跟委員報告南非這個狀況如果真的跟那個俄羅斯那邊還是有點不同不一樣但是還是有風險不是嗎\n\n19\n00:07:05,043 --> 00:07:20,049\n各種不同的政治風險因為俄羅斯受到國際的制裁所以他整個資金的移動跟匯回都產生很大的困難南非是因為個案的關係對台灣採取這樣一個我們主要關心他自己本身那個標的本身\n\n20\n00:07:21,169 --> 00:07:46,381\n對,你要去關心了解一下啊是會會會這次用增金風險啊這個風險全數是不是要提升啊一來作為一種外交的反制我們來做一個必要的反制嘛我們投資他那麼多對,謝謝委員的提醒啦我想這部分四千億耶我這是保守估計耶有一個說法是七八千億耶所以我們請你估計嘛那二來也要保護投資人嘛本身這個商品本身就有很大的風險性嘛\n\n21\n00:07:47,421 --> 00:08:10,103\n這個部分請主委要有所作為啦第三個對於這個風險性的部分我要跟你講最近頻頻傳出啊這個基金經理人啊涉及炒股啊你們想說絕對不容許當然不容許啊問題是怎麼防堵他發生來講絕對不容許那不是等於兩個字就廢話嘛\n\n22\n00:08:13,542 --> 00:08:34,925\n那文報告其實這些案子都是我們事後在偵測查出來的我們其實我們背後有一套我們跟他們也說了就是說你們不要心存僥倖因為所有東西都留下軌跡我們交易所這些都有軌跡所以我們只是跟他講說人性面我們要靠制度面來解決制度就是要約束這種人性\n\n23\n00:08:36,263 --> 00:08:57,140\n對對制度執行也是讓人性徹底約束為關鍵的原因事後跟事前事前的部分要靠法律制度事後是靠你行政執行嘛你現在你看一年就發生兩件再加上之前的好像你現在開放主動型的ETF就是給操盤人更多的空間給予更大的受信跟可能性這相對的風險跟增加嘛不是嗎\n\n24\n00:08:57,660 --> 00:09:13,084\n這我們確實要來努力因為什麼就是說市場開放是一股力量我們不得不開放我們不能因為少數違規的個案我們就把市場牽制住我們是要把它相對我們要加強我們管控的力道對我們有能力牽制喔\n\n25\n00:09:14,285 --> 00:09:42,446\n其實我們背後有一套監視的我們會再三跟他們宣導我們有一套監視的系統其實凡走過都必留下痕跡一個方式是事先的部分就是法律上的他律的部分他自律的部分然後加上他的自律第一來就是說我們的頭信頭顧法有八這個違規的法款的部分最近我們送出去立法院送出去委員會的部分有三百萬到\n\n26\n00:09:43,126 --> 00:09:43,326\n郭文貴議員\n\n27\n00:09:59,117 --> 00:10:15,803\n這種東西怎麼會有嚇阻效果呢也就是說你行政的作為你有處罰你有揭露但是最終到法律的刑事審判的時候卻是以反刑作為收尾這些經理人他到人生的後半段的話他就想說乾脆跟你賭一把好了不是嗎所以造成這種僥倖的結果\n\n28\n00:10:16,983 --> 00:10:33,159\n我們會用制度來解決人性面的問題我們還是希望說我們的管制不要是一個無差別的管制我們希望是針對真的有效的管制我們只要強調說這個部分能夠再強化一點當你一邊在開放的時候\n\n29\n00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:36,642\n主委我跟你拜託一下好不好新的保險局局長來是不是不清楚啊\n\n30\n00:11:04,241 --> 00:11:19,912\n去年7月1號的時候我們才把這些高風險的禦禁止而已啊這花了多少力氣啊那今年它雖然是這個五指山號稱業界號稱的五指山禁令你竟然是暗度承擔就想要把它開放\n\n31\n00:11:21,048 --> 00:11:21,688\n有道理嗎?\n\n32\n00:11:43,978 --> 00:12:08,223\n你開放的比例你全委的部分他就不設定比例了嗎原來是20%那我們現在是希望說20跟另外一個新興在是10%我們希望來調整這個不是全部都可以你可以調整你不能開放啊你如果說有專業的作為考量的話你一層可以多個1.5層或多兩層你不能說一層就變成10層嘛對不對當然當然這部分我們會而且講白一點壯大投信投信這幾年的發展這麼好\n\n33\n00:12:09,485 --> 00:12:12,607\n我們希望健全的成長而不是盲目的成長對如果是這樣子你就要好好小心的處理你是寫鬆綁欸\n\n34\n00:12:31,617 --> 00:12:58,756\n這部分我們是很謹慎在做剛剛委員關注的就是說對一般投資人的保護我們一定堅守這個底線但是確實是比如說像美喬商會他們也說全世界沒有人做這個限制只有臺灣我跟你講美喬商會那些人叫Broker啦這個佣金就特別高啦我跟你講白點啦所以會來拉比啦你要考慮到那些人背後的動機啦好不好這才是關鍵的言語你自己講出來就是你被拉比嘛謝謝\n\n35\n00:13:01,635 --> 00:13:03,637\n謝謝郭委員、謝謝彭主委、接著我們請賴會員委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1029\t25404\t請彭主委謝謝委員長主委好我想那個金礦加速太多大家希望金礦能夠合併都一直有這樣的聲音不過最近受到矚目在上個月的時候有關於中信要收購星光人獸的案子當中我覺得要有制度面當中要來跟那個主委來做一個探討\n26823\t51783\t有幾項第一個就是說我們明明在2018年的時候已經修正通過的金融控股公司投資管理辦法的部分就是以10%來定義原來是所謂控制性的持股然後把它明確有把它數字化但是以中信提出來的他們要收購介於10%到51%之間但金管會卻說10%無法確定絕對的控制力那明明投資計畫書已經寫10到\n53644\t55065\t還有一段時間啊 主委\n82346\t87407\t10%是你們那個金管會的規定欸為什麼10%就沒有不然你就把10%改掉啊是 我們最近呢也開始來檢討這件事情改天那一家寫10%也不行那就按照你的管理辦法改的啊\n106142\t128882\t這個10%只是一個門檻要看條件而定對 你們寫就是10%嘛10到51%那你只要寫10到51%為什麼你確定他做這個到10%就會停止你怎麼憑什麼去做這樣的主觀認定這第一個我要挑戰你的是說你的10%是你們定的控制性十股把他數據化也是你們定的你憑什麼認定說這個個案沒有辦法\n131993\t147564\t這第一個 第二個荒謬的地方在哪裡呢依照公開收購公行公司的有價證券的管理辦法第8條當中你得以現金跟有價證券的方式用對價的方式來進行收購那你們又提出說要百分之\n149144\t173570\t是跟委員報告一下這個是公開收購辦法但是呢金控投資只是說你如果經過核准以後三個月之內你要用公開收購辦法一次購足其實當年時候呢其實等於說我們的金控整併是公開收購的特別規定就是說我們今天來講一般的公開收購確實如政企局他們訂的對一般公司適用他有說有現金跟股票\n174130\t189373\t但是我們從過去的例子裡面我們有這麼多案例裡面只有六件包括所有的是有含股票大部分都以現金其實一樣這個概念那以後你就標示清楚嘛對不對這個確實法規上面我們沒有寫很清楚不過對啊 你們要標示清楚啊\n190934\t202978\t明明法是這樣的規定你要說這個一定要怎樣怎樣你就事後來做一個說明解釋yes or no都是你在講的那依照法來做申請不就出了問題我現在不是問中心講話我是用體制的方式講話相當於如果要合併合併、金控合併的話你總要一個明確的遊戲規則出來嘛確實遊戲規則明確是非常重要非常重要齁\n214182\t240512\t第三個你又說你無法掌控新光人壽的損益新光人壽是何起大的一個金融公司而且它常常出了很多有的沒有的狀況不論是投資錯誤或者是不斷的被金管會裁罰這個就第三者來說怎麼一下子可以理解新光人壽的財務狀況呢我如果沒有進去當董事的話我講白一點即便當董事當了一年還搞不好不一定理解\n241158\t241659\t財務狀況要掌握財務狀況掌握\n267452\t267712\t主委 接下來我們還有機會推動這個合併案\n293115\t317146\t你不要太多的行政解釋的空間讓法令上的規範流於形式不論10%的量化也是你們弄的還有包括這個規範那個股票的對價收購也是你們弄的還有包括所謂的第三人這種情況底下如何了解購併對象的一個財務狀況這個都過於嚴苛啦我覺得不是因人設事是因人來堵事\n318246\t318366\t主委\n337739\t357357\t你論述的能力很強但是我的時間不夠麻煩書面補充是沒問題我再跟委員仔細說明第二個的部分我就教於你的部分最近的這個南非的政治風險增加為什麼因為他要求我們無理的不合法的要求我們撤銷這個代表處離開他的手足\n358696\t379243\t這種情況底下不禁讓我聯想到我們最近的統計的結果我們不論是在基金的投資總共南非幣計價基金379檔高達2286億另外還有保單投資型保單另外還有包括其他的南非幣的商品等等夯不啷噹加起來大概4000億\n380623\t405746\t我能不能請你估計一下這4000億是不是正確你會後給我一份資料沒問題我來把那個詳細這個風險指數相當的高這其實推估的出來第二個的部分第二個的部分呢他對於南非這樣的處理我們不禁想到一件事情就之前俄羅斯攻在的時候彩雷的經驗因為烏俄戰爭的關係那時候我們就要求金管會金管會也同意要將政經風險納入那我問啊\n407608\t422601\t南非這樣的情況底下符不符合政經風險的部分有沒有必要性把它提高它的風險權數是 我跟委員報告南非這個狀況如果真的跟那個俄羅斯那邊還是有點不同不一樣 但是還是有風險不是嗎\n425043\t440049\t各種不同的政治風險因為俄羅斯受到國際的制裁所以他整個資金的移動跟匯回都產生很大的困難南非是因為個案的關係對台灣採取這樣一個我們主要關心他自己本身那個標的本身\n441169\t466381\t對,你要去關心了解一下啊是會會會這次用增金風險啊這個風險全數是不是要提升啊一來作為一種外交的反制我們來做一個必要的反制嘛我們投資他那麼多對,謝謝委員的提醒啦我想這部分四千億耶我這是保守估計耶有一個說法是七八千億耶所以我們請你估計嘛那二來也要保護投資人嘛本身這個商品本身就有很大的風險性嘛\n467421\t490103\t這個部分請主委要有所作為啦第三個對於這個風險性的部分我要跟你講最近頻頻傳出啊這個基金經理人啊涉及炒股啊你們想說絕對不容許當然不容許啊問題是怎麼防堵他發生來講絕對不容許那不是等於兩個字就廢話嘛\n493542\t514925\t那文報告其實這些案子都是我們事後在偵測查出來的我們其實我們背後有一套我們跟他們也說了就是說你們不要心存僥倖因為所有東西都留下軌跡我們交易所這些都有軌跡所以我們只是跟他講說人性面我們要靠制度面來解決制度就是要約束這種人性\n516263\t537140\t對 對 制度執行也是讓人性徹底約束為關鍵的原因事後跟事前事前的部分要靠法律制度事後是靠你行政執行嘛你現在你看一年就發生兩件再加上之前的好像你現在開放主動型的ETF就是給操盤人更多的空間給予更大的受信跟可能性這相對的風險跟增加嘛 不是嗎\n537660\t553084\t這我們確實要來努力因為什麼就是說市場開放是一股力量我們不得不開放我們不能因為少數違規的個案我們就把市場牽制住我們是要把它相對我們要加強我們管控的力道對我們有能力牽制喔\n554285\t582446\t其實我們背後有一套監視的我們會再三跟他們宣導我們有一套監視的系統其實凡走過都必留下痕跡一個方式是事先的部分就是法律上的他律的部分他自律的部分然後加上他的自律第一來就是說我們的頭信頭顧法有八這個違規的法款的部分最近我們送出去立法院送出去委員會的部分有三百萬到\n583126\t583326\t郭文貴議員\n599117\t615803\t這種東西怎麼會有嚇阻效果呢也就是說你行政的作為你有處罰你有揭露但是最終到法律的刑事審判的時候卻是以反刑作為收尾這些經理人他到人生的後半段的話他就想說乾脆跟你賭一把好了不是嗎所以造成這種僥倖的結果\n616983\t633159\t我們會用制度來解決人性面的問題我們還是希望說我們的管制不要是一個無差別的管制我們希望是針對真的有效的管制我們只要強調說這個部分能夠再強化一點當你一邊在開放的時候\n633860\t636642\t主委 我跟你拜託一下好不好新的保險局局長來是不是不清楚啊\n664241\t679912\t去年7月1號的時候我們才把這些高風險的禦禁止而已啊這花了多少力氣啊那今年它雖然是這個五指山號稱業界號稱的五指山禁令你竟然是暗度承擔就想要把它開放\n681048\t681688\t有道理嗎?\n703978\t728223\t你開放的比例你全委的部分他就不設定比例了嗎原來是20%那我們現在是希望說20跟另外一個新興在是10%我們希望來調整這個不是全部都可以你可以調整你不能開放啊你如果說有專業的作為考量的話你一層可以多個1.5層或多兩層你不能說一層就變成10層嘛對不對當然當然這部分我們會而且講白一點壯大投信投信這幾年的發展這麼好\n729485\t732607\t我們希望健全的成長而不是盲目的成長對 如果是這樣子你就要好好小心的處理你是寫鬆綁欸\n751617\t778756\t這部分我們是很謹慎在做剛剛委員關注的就是說對一般投資人的保護我們一定堅守這個底線但是確實是比如說像美喬商會他們也說全世界沒有人做這個限制只有臺灣我跟你講美喬商會那些人叫Broker啦這個佣金就特別高啦我跟你講白點啦所以會來拉比啦你要考慮到那些人背後的動機啦好不好這才是關鍵的言語你自己講出來就是你被拉比嘛謝謝\n781635\t783637\t謝謝郭委員、謝謝彭主委、接著我們請賴會員委員\n","txt":"請彭主委謝謝委員長主委好我想那個金礦加速太多大家希望金礦能夠合併都一直有這樣的聲音不過最近受到矚目在上個月的時候有關於中信要收購星光人獸的案子當中我覺得要有制度面當中要來跟那個主委來做一個探討\n有幾項第一個就是說我們明明在2018年的時候已經修正通過的金融控股公司投資管理辦法的部分就是以10%來定義原來是所謂控制性的持股然後把它明確有把它數字化但是以中信提出來的他們要收購介於10%到51%之間但金管會卻說10%無法確定絕對的控制力那明明投資計畫書已經寫10到\n還有一段時間啊 主委\n10%是你們那個金管會的規定欸為什麼10%就沒有不然你就把10%改掉啊是 我們最近呢也開始來檢討這件事情改天那一家寫10%也不行那就按照你的管理辦法改的啊\n這個10%只是一個門檻要看條件而定對 你們寫就是10%嘛10到51%那你只要寫10到51%為什麼你確定他做這個到10%就會停止你怎麼憑什麼去做這樣的主觀認定這第一個我要挑戰你的是說你的10%是你們定的控制性十股把他數據化也是你們定的你憑什麼認定說這個個案沒有辦法\n這第一個 第二個荒謬的地方在哪裡呢依照公開收購公行公司的有價證券的管理辦法第8條當中你得以現金跟有價證券的方式用對價的方式來進行收購那你們又提出說要百分之\n是跟委員報告一下這個是公開收購辦法但是呢金控投資只是說你如果經過核准以後三個月之內你要用公開收購辦法一次購足其實當年時候呢其實等於說我們的金控整併是公開收購的特別規定就是說我們今天來講一般的公開收購確實如政企局他們訂的對一般公司適用他有說有現金跟股票\n但是我們從過去的例子裡面我們有這麼多案例裡面只有六件包括所有的是有含股票大部分都以現金其實一樣這個概念那以後你就標示清楚嘛對不對這個確實法規上面我們沒有寫很清楚不過對啊 你們要標示清楚啊\n明明法是這樣的規定你要說這個一定要怎樣怎樣你就事後來做一個說明解釋yes or no都是你在講的那依照法來做申請不就出了問題我現在不是問中心講話我是用體制的方式講話相當於如果要合併合併、金控合併的話你總要一個明確的遊戲規則出來嘛確實遊戲規則明確是非常重要非常重要齁\n第三個你又說你無法掌控新光人壽的損益新光人壽是何起大的一個金融公司而且它常常出了很多有的沒有的狀況不論是投資錯誤或者是不斷的被金管會裁罰這個就第三者來說怎麼一下子可以理解新光人壽的財務狀況呢我如果沒有進去當董事的話我講白一點即便當董事當了一年還搞不好不一定理解\n財務狀況要掌握財務狀況掌握\n主委 接下來我們還有機會推動這個合併案\n你不要太多的行政解釋的空間讓法令上的規範流於形式不論10%的量化也是你們弄的還有包括這個規範那個股票的對價收購也是你們弄的還有包括所謂的第三人這種情況底下如何了解購併對象的一個財務狀況這個都過於嚴苛啦我覺得不是因人設事是因人來堵事\n主委\n你論述的能力很強但是我的時間不夠麻煩書面補充是沒問題我再跟委員仔細說明第二個的部分我就教於你的部分最近的這個南非的政治風險增加為什麼因為他要求我們無理的不合法的要求我們撤銷這個代表處離開他的手足\n這種情況底下不禁讓我聯想到我們最近的統計的結果我們不論是在基金的投資總共南非幣計價基金379檔高達2286億另外還有保單投資型保單另外還有包括其他的南非幣的商品等等夯不啷噹加起來大概4000億\n我能不能請你估計一下這4000億是不是正確你會後給我一份資料沒問題我來把那個詳細這個風險指數相當的高這其實推估的出來第二個的部分第二個的部分呢他對於南非這樣的處理我們不禁想到一件事情就之前俄羅斯攻在的時候彩雷的經驗因為烏俄戰爭的關係那時候我們就要求金管會金管會也同意要將政經風險納入那我問啊\n南非這樣的情況底下符不符合政經風險的部分有沒有必要性把它提高它的風險權數是 我跟委員報告南非這個狀況如果真的跟那個俄羅斯那邊還是有點不同不一樣 但是還是有風險不是嗎\n各種不同的政治風險因為俄羅斯受到國際的制裁所以他整個資金的移動跟匯回都產生很大的困難南非是因為個案的關係對台灣採取這樣一個我們主要關心他自己本身那個標的本身\n對,你要去關心了解一下啊是會會會這次用增金風險啊這個風險全數是不是要提升啊一來作為一種外交的反制我們來做一個必要的反制嘛我們投資他那麼多對,謝謝委員的提醒啦我想這部分四千億耶我這是保守估計耶有一個說法是七八千億耶所以我們請你估計嘛那二來也要保護投資人嘛本身這個商品本身就有很大的風險性嘛\n這個部分請主委要有所作為啦第三個對於這個風險性的部分我要跟你講最近頻頻傳出啊這個基金經理人啊涉及炒股啊你們想說絕對不容許當然不容許啊問題是怎麼防堵他發生來講絕對不容許那不是等於兩個字就廢話嘛\n那文報告其實這些案子都是我們事後在偵測查出來的我們其實我們背後有一套我們跟他們也說了就是說你們不要心存僥倖因為所有東西都留下軌跡我們交易所這些都有軌跡所以我們只是跟他講說人性面我們要靠制度面來解決制度就是要約束這種人性\n對 對 制度執行也是讓人性徹底約束為關鍵的原因事後跟事前事前的部分要靠法律制度事後是靠你行政執行嘛你現在你看一年就發生兩件再加上之前的好像你現在開放主動型的ETF就是給操盤人更多的空間給予更大的受信跟可能性這相對的風險跟增加嘛 不是嗎\n這我們確實要來努力因為什麼就是說市場開放是一股力量我們不得不開放我們不能因為少數違規的個案我們就把市場牽制住我們是要把它相對我們要加強我們管控的力道對我們有能力牽制喔\n其實我們背後有一套監視的我們會再三跟他們宣導我們有一套監視的系統其實凡走過都必留下痕跡一個方式是事先的部分就是法律上的他律的部分他自律的部分然後加上他的自律第一來就是說我們的頭信頭顧法有八這個違規的法款的部分最近我們送出去立法院送出去委員會的部分有三百萬到\n郭文貴議員\n這種東西怎麼會有嚇阻效果呢也就是說你行政的作為你有處罰你有揭露但是最終到法律的刑事審判的時候卻是以反刑作為收尾這些經理人他到人生的後半段的話他就想說乾脆跟你賭一把好了不是嗎所以造成這種僥倖的結果\n我們會用制度來解決人性面的問題我們還是希望說我們的管制不要是一個無差別的管制我們希望是針對真的有效的管制我們只要強調說這個部分能夠再強化一點當你一邊在開放的時候\n主委 我跟你拜託一下好不好新的保險局局長來是不是不清楚啊\n去年7月1號的時候我們才把這些高風險的禦禁止而已啊這花了多少力氣啊那今年它雖然是這個五指山號稱業界號稱的五指山禁令你竟然是暗度承擔就想要把它開放\n有道理嗎?\n你開放的比例你全委的部分他就不設定比例了嗎原來是20%那我們現在是希望說20跟另外一個新興在是10%我們希望來調整這個不是全部都可以你可以調整你不能開放啊你如果說有專業的作為考量的話你一層可以多個1.5層或多兩層你不能說一層就變成10層嘛對不對當然當然這部分我們會而且講白一點壯大投信投信這幾年的發展這麼好\n我們希望健全的成長而不是盲目的成長對 如果是這樣子你就要好好小心的處理你是寫鬆綁欸\n這部分我們是很謹慎在做剛剛委員關注的就是說對一般投資人的保護我們一定堅守這個底線但是確實是比如說像美喬商會他們也說全世界沒有人做這個限制只有臺灣我跟你講美喬商會那些人叫Broker啦這個佣金就特別高啦我跟你講白點啦所以會來拉比啦你要考慮到那些人背後的動機啦好不好這才是關鍵的言語你自己講出來就是你被拉比嘛謝謝\n謝謝郭委員、謝謝彭主委、接著我們請賴會員委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.029 --> 00:25.404\n請彭主委謝謝委員長主委好我想那個金礦加速太多大家希望金礦能夠合併都一直有這樣的聲音不過最近受到矚目在上個月的時候有關於中信要收購星光人獸的案子當中我覺得要有制度面當中要來跟那個主委來做一個探討\n\n00:26.823 --> 00:51.783\n有幾項第一個就是說我們明明在2018年的時候已經修正通過的金融控股公司投資管理辦法的部分就是以10%來定義原來是所謂控制性的持股然後把它明確有把它數字化但是以中信提出來的他們要收購介於10%到51%之間但金管會卻說10%無法確定絕對的控制力那明明投資計畫書已經寫10到\n\n00:53.644 --> 00:55.065\n還有一段時間啊主委\n\n01:22.346 --> 01:27.407\n10%是你們那個金管會的規定欸為什麼10%就沒有不然你就把10%改掉啊是我們最近呢也開始來檢討這件事情改天那一家寫10%也不行那就按照你的管理辦法改的啊\n\n01:46.142 --> 02:08.882\n這個10%只是一個門檻要看條件而定對你們寫就是10%嘛10到51%那你只要寫10到51%為什麼你確定他做這個到10%就會停止你怎麼憑什麼去做這樣的主觀認定這第一個我要挑戰你的是說你的10%是你們定的控制性十股把他數據化也是你們定的你憑什麼認定說這個個案沒有辦法\n\n02:11.993 --> 02:27.564\n這第一個第二個荒謬的地方在哪裡呢依照公開收購公行公司的有價證券的管理辦法第8條當中你得以現金跟有價證券的方式用對價的方式來進行收購那你們又提出說要百分之\n\n02:29.144 --> 02:53.570\n是跟委員報告一下這個是公開收購辦法但是呢金控投資只是說你如果經過核准以後三個月之內你要用公開收購辦法一次購足其實當年時候呢其實等於說我們的金控整併是公開收購的特別規定就是說我們今天來講一般的公開收購確實如政企局他們訂的對一般公司適用他有說有現金跟股票\n\n02:54.130 --> 03:09.373\n但是我們從過去的例子裡面我們有這麼多案例裡面只有六件包括所有的是有含股票大部分都以現金其實一樣這個概念那以後你就標示清楚嘛對不對這個確實法規上面我們沒有寫很清楚不過對啊你們要標示清楚啊\n\n03:10.934 --> 03:22.978\n明明法是這樣的規定你要說這個一定要怎樣怎樣你就事後來做一個說明解釋yesorno都是你在講的那依照法來做申請不就出了問題我現在不是問中心講話我是用體制的方式講話相當於如果要合併合併、金控合併的話你總要一個明確的遊戲規則出來嘛確實遊戲規則明確是非常重要非常重要齁\n\n03:34.182 --> 04:00.512\n第三個你又說你無法掌控新光人壽的損益新光人壽是何起大的一個金融公司而且它常常出了很多有的沒有的狀況不論是投資錯誤或者是不斷的被金管會裁罰這個就第三者來說怎麼一下子可以理解新光人壽的財務狀況呢我如果沒有進去當董事的話我講白一點即便當董事當了一年還搞不好不一定理解\n\n04:01.158 --> 04:01.659\n財務狀況要掌握財務狀況掌握\n\n04:27.452 --> 04:27.712\n主委接下來我們還有機會推動這個合併案\n\n04:53.115 --> 05:17.146\n你不要太多的行政解釋的空間讓法令上的規範流於形式不論10%的量化也是你們弄的還有包括這個規範那個股票的對價收購也是你們弄的還有包括所謂的第三人這種情況底下如何了解購併對象的一個財務狀況這個都過於嚴苛啦我覺得不是因人設事是因人來堵事\n\n05:18.246 --> 05:18.366\n主委\n\n05:37.739 --> 05:57.357\n你論述的能力很強但是我的時間不夠麻煩書面補充是沒問題我再跟委員仔細說明第二個的部分我就教於你的部分最近的這個南非的政治風險增加為什麼因為他要求我們無理的不合法的要求我們撤銷這個代表處離開他的手足\n\n05:58.696 --> 06:19.243\n這種情況底下不禁讓我聯想到我們最近的統計的結果我們不論是在基金的投資總共南非幣計價基金379檔高達2286億另外還有保單投資型保單另外還有包括其他的南非幣的商品等等夯不啷噹加起來大概4000億\n\n06:20.623 --> 06:45.746\n我能不能請你估計一下這4000億是不是正確你會後給我一份資料沒問題我來把那個詳細這個風險指數相當的高這其實推估的出來第二個的部分第二個的部分呢他對於南非這樣的處理我們不禁想到一件事情就之前俄羅斯攻在的時候彩雷的經驗因為烏俄戰爭的關係那時候我們就要求金管會金管會也同意要將政經風險納入那我問啊\n\n06:47.608 --> 07:02.601\n南非這樣的情況底下符不符合政經風險的部分有沒有必要性把它提高它的風險權數是我跟委員報告南非這個狀況如果真的跟那個俄羅斯那邊還是有點不同不一樣但是還是有風險不是嗎\n\n07:05.043 --> 07:20.049\n各種不同的政治風險因為俄羅斯受到國際的制裁所以他整個資金的移動跟匯回都產生很大的困難南非是因為個案的關係對台灣採取這樣一個我們主要關心他自己本身那個標的本身\n\n07:21.169 --> 07:46.381\n對,你要去關心了解一下啊是會會會這次用增金風險啊這個風險全數是不是要提升啊一來作為一種外交的反制我們來做一個必要的反制嘛我們投資他那麼多對,謝謝委員的提醒啦我想這部分四千億耶我這是保守估計耶有一個說法是七八千億耶所以我們請你估計嘛那二來也要保護投資人嘛本身這個商品本身就有很大的風險性嘛\n\n07:47.421 --> 08:10.103\n這個部分請主委要有所作為啦第三個對於這個風險性的部分我要跟你講最近頻頻傳出啊這個基金經理人啊涉及炒股啊你們想說絕對不容許當然不容許啊問題是怎麼防堵他發生來講絕對不容許那不是等於兩個字就廢話嘛\n\n08:13.542 --> 08:34.925\n那文報告其實這些案子都是我們事後在偵測查出來的我們其實我們背後有一套我們跟他們也說了就是說你們不要心存僥倖因為所有東西都留下軌跡我們交易所這些都有軌跡所以我們只是跟他講說人性面我們要靠制度面來解決制度就是要約束這種人性\n\n08:36.263 --> 08:57.140\n對對制度執行也是讓人性徹底約束為關鍵的原因事後跟事前事前的部分要靠法律制度事後是靠你行政執行嘛你現在你看一年就發生兩件再加上之前的好像你現在開放主動型的ETF就是給操盤人更多的空間給予更大的受信跟可能性這相對的風險跟增加嘛不是嗎\n\n08:57.660 --> 09:13.084\n這我們確實要來努力因為什麼就是說市場開放是一股力量我們不得不開放我們不能因為少數違規的個案我們就把市場牽制住我們是要把它相對我們要加強我們管控的力道對我們有能力牽制喔\n\n09:14.285 --> 09:42.446\n其實我們背後有一套監視的我們會再三跟他們宣導我們有一套監視的系統其實凡走過都必留下痕跡一個方式是事先的部分就是法律上的他律的部分他自律的部分然後加上他的自律第一來就是說我們的頭信頭顧法有八這個違規的法款的部分最近我們送出去立法院送出去委員會的部分有三百萬到\n\n09:43.126 --> 09:43.326\n郭文貴議員\n\n09:59.117 --> 10:15.803\n這種東西怎麼會有嚇阻效果呢也就是說你行政的作為你有處罰你有揭露但是最終到法律的刑事審判的時候卻是以反刑作為收尾這些經理人他到人生的後半段的話他就想說乾脆跟你賭一把好了不是嗎所以造成這種僥倖的結果\n\n10:16.983 --> 10:33.159\n我們會用制度來解決人性面的問題我們還是希望說我們的管制不要是一個無差別的管制我們希望是針對真的有效的管制我們只要強調說這個部分能夠再強化一點當你一邊在開放的時候\n\n10:33.860 --> 10:36.642\n主委我跟你拜託一下好不好新的保險局局長來是不是不清楚啊\n\n11:04.241 --> 11:19.912\n去年7月1號的時候我們才把這些高風險的禦禁止而已啊這花了多少力氣啊那今年它雖然是這個五指山號稱業界號稱的五指山禁令你竟然是暗度承擔就想要把它開放\n\n11:21.048 --> 11:21.688\n有道理嗎?\n\n11:43.978 --> 12:08.223\n你開放的比例你全委的部分他就不設定比例了嗎原來是20%那我們現在是希望說20跟另外一個新興在是10%我們希望來調整這個不是全部都可以你可以調整你不能開放啊你如果說有專業的作為考量的話你一層可以多個1.5層或多兩層你不能說一層就變成10層嘛對不對當然當然這部分我們會而且講白一點壯大投信投信這幾年的發展這麼好\n\n12:09.485 --> 12:12.607\n我們希望健全的成長而不是盲目的成長對如果是這樣子你就要好好小心的處理你是寫鬆綁欸\n\n12:31.617 --> 12:58.756\n這部分我們是很謹慎在做剛剛委員關注的就是說對一般投資人的保護我們一定堅守這個底線但是確實是比如說像美喬商會他們也說全世界沒有人做這個限制只有臺灣我跟你講美喬商會那些人叫Broker啦這個佣金就特別高啦我跟你講白點啦所以會來拉比啦你要考慮到那些人背後的動機啦好不好這才是關鍵的言語你自己講出來就是你被拉比嘛謝謝\n\n13:01.635 --> 13:03.637\n謝謝郭委員、謝謝彭主委、接著我們請賴會員委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.029,"end":25.404,"text":"請彭主委謝謝委員長主委好我想那個金礦加速太多大家希望金礦能夠合併都一直有這樣的聲音不過最近受到矚目在上個月的時候有關於中信要收購星光人獸的案子當中我覺得要有制度面當中要來跟那個主委來做一個探討"},{"start":26.823,"end":51.783,"text":"有幾項第一個就是說我們明明在2018年的時候已經修正通過的金融控股公司投資管理辦法的部分就是以10%來定義原來是所謂控制性的持股然後把它明確有把它數字化但是以中信提出來的他們要收購介於10%到51%之間但金管會卻說10%無法確定絕對的控制力那明明投資計畫書已經寫10到"},{"start":53.644,"end":55.065,"text":"還有一段時間啊 主委"},{"start":82.346,"end":87.407,"text":"10%是你們那個金管會的規定欸為什麼10%就沒有不然你就把10%改掉啊是 我們最近呢也開始來檢討這件事情改天那一家寫10%也不行那就按照你的管理辦法改的啊"},{"start":106.142,"end":128.882,"text":"這個10%只是一個門檻要看條件而定對 你們寫就是10%嘛10到51%那你只要寫10到51%為什麼你確定他做這個到10%就會停止你怎麼憑什麼去做這樣的主觀認定這第一個我要挑戰你的是說你的10%是你們定的控制性十股把他數據化也是你們定的你憑什麼認定說這個個案沒有辦法"},{"start":131.993,"end":147.564,"text":"這第一個 第二個荒謬的地方在哪裡呢依照公開收購公行公司的有價證券的管理辦法第8條當中你得以現金跟有價證券的方式用對價的方式來進行收購那你們又提出說要百分之"},{"start":149.144,"end":173.57,"text":"是跟委員報告一下這個是公開收購辦法但是呢金控投資只是說你如果經過核准以後三個月之內你要用公開收購辦法一次購足其實當年時候呢其實等於說我們的金控整併是公開收購的特別規定就是說我們今天來講一般的公開收購確實如政企局他們訂的對一般公司適用他有說有現金跟股票"},{"start":174.13,"end":189.373,"text":"但是我們從過去的例子裡面我們有這麼多案例裡面只有六件包括所有的是有含股票大部分都以現金其實一樣這個概念那以後你就標示清楚嘛對不對這個確實法規上面我們沒有寫很清楚不過對啊 你們要標示清楚啊"},{"start":190.934,"end":202.978,"text":"明明法是這樣的規定你要說這個一定要怎樣怎樣你就事後來做一個說明解釋yes or no都是你在講的那依照法來做申請不就出了問題我現在不是問中心講話我是用體制的方式講話相當於如果要合併合併、金控合併的話你總要一個明確的遊戲規則出來嘛確實遊戲規則明確是非常重要非常重要齁"},{"start":214.182,"end":240.512,"text":"第三個你又說你無法掌控新光人壽的損益新光人壽是何起大的一個金融公司而且它常常出了很多有的沒有的狀況不論是投資錯誤或者是不斷的被金管會裁罰這個就第三者來說怎麼一下子可以理解新光人壽的財務狀況呢我如果沒有進去當董事的話我講白一點即便當董事當了一年還搞不好不一定理解"},{"start":241.158,"end":241.659,"text":"財務狀況要掌握財務狀況掌握"},{"start":267.452,"end":267.712,"text":"主委 接下來我們還有機會推動這個合併案"},{"start":293.115,"end":317.146,"text":"你不要太多的行政解釋的空間讓法令上的規範流於形式不論10%的量化也是你們弄的還有包括這個規範那個股票的對價收購也是你們弄的還有包括所謂的第三人這種情況底下如何了解購併對象的一個財務狀況這個都過於嚴苛啦我覺得不是因人設事是因人來堵事"},{"start":318.246,"end":318.366,"text":"主委"},{"start":337.739,"end":357.357,"text":"你論述的能力很強但是我的時間不夠麻煩書面補充是沒問題我再跟委員仔細說明第二個的部分我就教於你的部分最近的這個南非的政治風險增加為什麼因為他要求我們無理的不合法的要求我們撤銷這個代表處離開他的手足"},{"start":358.696,"end":379.243,"text":"這種情況底下不禁讓我聯想到我們最近的統計的結果我們不論是在基金的投資總共南非幣計價基金379檔高達2286億另外還有保單投資型保單另外還有包括其他的南非幣的商品等等夯不啷噹加起來大概4000億"},{"start":380.623,"end":405.746,"text":"我能不能請你估計一下這4000億是不是正確你會後給我一份資料沒問題我來把那個詳細這個風險指數相當的高這其實推估的出來第二個的部分第二個的部分呢他對於南非這樣的處理我們不禁想到一件事情就之前俄羅斯攻在的時候彩雷的經驗因為烏俄戰爭的關係那時候我們就要求金管會金管會也同意要將政經風險納入那我問啊"},{"start":407.608,"end":422.601,"text":"南非這樣的情況底下符不符合政經風險的部分有沒有必要性把它提高它的風險權數是 我跟委員報告南非這個狀況如果真的跟那個俄羅斯那邊還是有點不同不一樣 但是還是有風險不是嗎"},{"start":425.043,"end":440.049,"text":"各種不同的政治風險因為俄羅斯受到國際的制裁所以他整個資金的移動跟匯回都產生很大的困難南非是因為個案的關係對台灣採取這樣一個我們主要關心他自己本身那個標的本身"},{"start":441.169,"end":466.381,"text":"對,你要去關心了解一下啊是會會會這次用增金風險啊這個風險全數是不是要提升啊一來作為一種外交的反制我們來做一個必要的反制嘛我們投資他那麼多對,謝謝委員的提醒啦我想這部分四千億耶我這是保守估計耶有一個說法是七八千億耶所以我們請你估計嘛那二來也要保護投資人嘛本身這個商品本身就有很大的風險性嘛"},{"start":467.421,"end":490.103,"text":"這個部分請主委要有所作為啦第三個對於這個風險性的部分我要跟你講最近頻頻傳出啊這個基金經理人啊涉及炒股啊你們想說絕對不容許當然不容許啊問題是怎麼防堵他發生來講絕對不容許那不是等於兩個字就廢話嘛"},{"start":493.542,"end":514.925,"text":"那文報告其實這些案子都是我們事後在偵測查出來的我們其實我們背後有一套我們跟他們也說了就是說你們不要心存僥倖因為所有東西都留下軌跡我們交易所這些都有軌跡所以我們只是跟他講說人性面我們要靠制度面來解決制度就是要約束這種人性"},{"start":516.263,"end":537.14,"text":"對 對 制度執行也是讓人性徹底約束為關鍵的原因事後跟事前事前的部分要靠法律制度事後是靠你行政執行嘛你現在你看一年就發生兩件再加上之前的好像你現在開放主動型的ETF就是給操盤人更多的空間給予更大的受信跟可能性這相對的風險跟增加嘛 不是嗎"},{"start":537.66,"end":553.084,"text":"這我們確實要來努力因為什麼就是說市場開放是一股力量我們不得不開放我們不能因為少數違規的個案我們就把市場牽制住我們是要把它相對我們要加強我們管控的力道對我們有能力牽制喔"},{"start":554.285,"end":582.446,"text":"其實我們背後有一套監視的我們會再三跟他們宣導我們有一套監視的系統其實凡走過都必留下痕跡一個方式是事先的部分就是法律上的他律的部分他自律的部分然後加上他的自律第一來就是說我們的頭信頭顧法有八這個違規的法款的部分最近我們送出去立法院送出去委員會的部分有三百萬到"},{"start":583.126,"end":583.326,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":599.117,"end":615.803,"text":"這種東西怎麼會有嚇阻效果呢也就是說你行政的作為你有處罰你有揭露但是最終到法律的刑事審判的時候卻是以反刑作為收尾這些經理人他到人生的後半段的話他就想說乾脆跟你賭一把好了不是嗎所以造成這種僥倖的結果"},{"start":616.983,"end":633.159,"text":"我們會用制度來解決人性面的問題我們還是希望說我們的管制不要是一個無差別的管制我們希望是針對真的有效的管制我們只要強調說這個部分能夠再強化一點當你一邊在開放的時候"},{"start":633.86,"end":636.642,"text":"主委 我跟你拜託一下好不好新的保險局局長來是不是不清楚啊"},{"start":664.241,"end":679.912,"text":"去年7月1號的時候我們才把這些高風險的禦禁止而已啊這花了多少力氣啊那今年它雖然是這個五指山號稱業界號稱的五指山禁令你竟然是暗度承擔就想要把它開放"},{"start":681.048,"end":681.688,"text":"有道理嗎?"},{"start":703.978,"end":728.223,"text":"你開放的比例你全委的部分他就不設定比例了嗎原來是20%那我們現在是希望說20跟另外一個新興在是10%我們希望來調整這個不是全部都可以你可以調整你不能開放啊你如果說有專業的作為考量的話你一層可以多個1.5層或多兩層你不能說一層就變成10層嘛對不對當然當然這部分我們會而且講白一點壯大投信投信這幾年的發展這麼好"},{"start":729.485,"end":732.607,"text":"我們希望健全的成長而不是盲目的成長對 如果是這樣子你就要好好小心的處理你是寫鬆綁欸"},{"start":751.617,"end":778.756,"text":"這部分我們是很謹慎在做剛剛委員關注的就是說對一般投資人的保護我們一定堅守這個底線但是確實是比如說像美喬商會他們也說全世界沒有人做這個限制只有臺灣我跟你講美喬商會那些人叫Broker啦這個佣金就特別高啦我跟你講白點啦所以會來拉比啦你要考慮到那些人背後的動機啦好不好這才是關鍵的言語你自己講出來就是你被拉比嘛謝謝"},{"start":781.635,"end":783.637,"text":"謝謝郭委員、謝謝彭主委、接著我們請賴會員委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":294,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）謝謝主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。我想金控家數太多，大家希望金控能夠合併，都一直有這樣的聲音。不過最近受到矚目的是上個月有關於中信要收購新光人壽的案子，當中我覺得有幾項制度面的問題要跟主委做一個探討。第一個，我們明明在2018年的時候就已經修正通過金融控股公司投資管理辦法，就是以10%來定義，原來是所謂的「控制性持股」，後來修法把它明確數字化。中信提出來的是他們要收購介於10%到51%之間，但金管會卻說10%無法確定絕對的控制力，明明投資計畫書已經寫10%到51%，為什麼、憑什麼論定它沒有絕對的控制力？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實是這樣的，我們如果按照公開收購的概念，它是提出10%到51%，就代表它在期限結束時只要有收購到10%，這個公開收購就算成立，但是假設這個10%確實沒有具有控制力，有可能是這樣……"],["郭委員國文：應該還有一段時間啊，主委，還有一段時間啊，它只是插旗而已嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是因為我們擔心市場秩序的問題，比如說，現在假設這個標本身就有兩個不同意見的……"],["郭委員國文：10%是你們金管會的規定耶，為什麼10%就沒有，不然你就把10%改掉啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們最近也開始在檢討這件事情……"],["郭委員國文：它寫10%不行，改天另一家寫10%也不行，但這就是按照你的管理辦法寫的啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個10%只是個門檻，要看條件而定，比如說……"],["郭委員國文：對，你們規定的就是10%嘛，它就寫了10%到51%，為什麼你確定它到10%就會停止？你憑什麼去做這樣的主觀認定？第一個我要挑戰你的是說，這個10%是你們訂的，把「控制性持股」數據化是你們訂的，你憑什麼認定說這個個案沒有辦法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，主要是……"],["郭委員國文：這是第一個。第二個荒謬的地方在哪裡，依照公開收購公開發行公司有價證券管理辦法第八條規定，得以現金跟有價證券對價方式進行收購，但你們又提出要100%以現金收購！"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，這個是公開收購辦法，但是金控投資只是說，你如果經過我核准以後，三個月之內你要用公開收購辦法一次購足，其實等於說我們的金控整併是公開收購的特別規定，也就是說，一般的公開收購確實如證期局他們訂的，對一般公司適用，可以用現金跟股票，但是我們從過去的例子來看，我們這麼多案例裡面也只有6件是有含股票，大部分都是現金，其實一樣這個概念……"],["郭委員國文：那以後你就標示清楚嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個確實在法規上面我們沒有寫得很清楚，不過……"],["郭委員國文：對啊，你要標示清楚啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：明明法是這樣的規定，你又要說這個一定要怎樣怎樣，你就事後來做一個說明解釋，yes or no都是你在講的，依照法來做申請的不就出了問題……"],["彭主任委員金隆：不過委員您誤會了……"],["郭委員國文：我現在不是為中信講話，我是對體制的方式在講話，將來如果金控要合併的話，你總要有一個明確的遊戲規則出來嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實遊戲規則明確是非常重要。"],["郭委員國文：要明確，這非常重要。","第三個，你又說它無法掌控新光人壽的損益，新光人壽是何其大的金融公司，而且常常出了很多有的沒有的狀況，不論是投資錯誤，或者是不斷地被金管會裁罰，就第三者來說，怎麼一下子可以理解新光人壽的財務狀況呢，我如果沒有進去當董事的話……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們……"],["郭委員國文：我講白一點，我即便當董事當了一年搞不好還不一定理解喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這裡也跟委員報告一下為什麼會提這個意思，因為它的計畫書我們也不方便公開，也不方便跟大家報告它怎麼寫的，我只是要跟各位說，當你要去收購一家公司，但你對這家公司的內容都講不清楚的時候，我很懷疑你那個價格是怎麼訂出來的。"],["郭委員國文：我是說財務狀況，你們寫說財務狀況要掌握，財務狀況掌握是何其困難啊，我講白一點，我自己也當過某金控公司的公股董事啊，我搞了一年多還是搞不清楚它的財務狀況，一點皮毛都非常有限……"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，確實財務狀況要完全掌握，我想大概是非常困難，但是我是說，以這麼大一家公司來說，你要去收購這麼大的公司，你要對你的股東負責，所以你對於你的開價及對於整個內容應該有一定的掌握程度。"],["郭委員國文：主委，接下來我們還有機會推動合併案，你不要有太多行政解釋的空間，讓法令上的規範流於形式，10%的量化也是你們弄的，還有規範股票的對價收購也是你們弄的，還有包括所謂第三人在這種情況底下如何瞭解購併對象的財務狀況，這個都過於嚴苛啦。我覺得不是因人設事，是因人堵事啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：就委員指正的，假設我們的法規沒有很明確，這個我們來檢討、來努力，但是剛才那個邏輯並沒有前後衝突，因為當初訂定規定的時候，每一個情境，這只是一個，比如說申請的門檻，並不是核准的標準。"],["郭委員國文：主委，你論述的能力很強，但是我的時間不夠，麻煩書面補充。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題，我再跟委員仔細說明。"],["郭委員國文：第二個要就教於你的部分，最近南非的政治風險增加，為什麼？因為它對我們的要求是無理的、不合法的，要求我們撤銷代表處，離開它的首都，在這種情況下，不禁讓我聯想到，以我們最近統計的結果，我們在基金投資方面以南非幣計價的基金總共有379檔，高達2,286億，還有投資型保單，另外還有包括其他的南非幣商品等等，夯不啷噹加起來大概4,000億，我能不能請你估計一下這4,000億是不是準確，你會後給我一份資料。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題，我來把那個詳細的數字再跟委員報告。"],["郭委員國文：這個風險指數相當的高，這其實推估的出來。","第二個部分，對於南非這樣的處理，我們不禁想到一件事情，之前俄羅斯公債時候的踩雷經驗，因為烏俄戰爭的關係，那時候我們就要求金管會，金管會也同意要將政經風險納入，那我就要請問，南非這樣的情況符不符合政經風險的部分？有沒有必要提高它的風險權數？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我跟委員報告，南非這個狀況真的跟俄羅斯那邊還是有一點不同，因為……"],["郭委員國文：不一樣，但是還是有風險，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，各種不同的政治風險，因為俄羅斯是受到國際的制裁，所以它整個資金的移動跟匯回都產生很大的困難，南非是因為個案的關係對臺灣採取這樣一個作為，我們主要關心那個標的本身……"],["郭委員國文：對，你要關心、瞭解一下啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，會，這個我們一定會的。"],["郭委員國文：這也是一種政經風險，這個風險權數是不是要提升？一來做為一種外交的反制，我們做一個必要的反制嘛，我們投資它那麼多……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，謝謝委員的提醒，我想這部分……"],["郭委員國文：夯不啷噹4,000億，4,000億耶！我這是保守估計，有一個說法是七、八千億耶！所以我請你們去估計嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以這個我們會瞭解之後再跟委員……"],["郭委員國文：二來也要保護投資人，這個商品本身就有很大的風險性，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，謝謝委員的提醒，我們回去會請保險局趕快去調查、瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：這個部分，請主委要有所作為啦！第三個，對於風險性的部分，我要跟你講，最近頻頻傳出基金經理人涉及炒股，你們講說「絕對不容許」，當然不容許，問題是怎麼防堵它發生？講說絕對不容許，那不是等於兩個字就是「廢話」嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實這些案子都是我們事後再偵測查出來的，等於說其實我們背後有一套，我們也跟他們說了，就是請他們不要心存僥倖，因為所有東西都留下了軌跡，我們交易所這些都有軌跡，所以我們只是跟他講說，人性面我們要靠制度面來解決……"],["郭委員國文：制度就是在約束這種人性，制度的執行，也是讓人性能夠徹底約束的一個關鍵原因。事後跟事前，事前的部分要靠法律制度，事後是靠你的行政執行嘛。現在你看一年就發生兩件，再加上之前的案例，那你現在又開放主動型的ETF，就是給操盤人更多的空間，給予更大的授信跟可能性，這個相對的風險就會增加嘛，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們確實要來努力，為什麼？因為市場開放是一股力量，我們不得不開放，我們不能因為少數違規的個案就把市場箝制住，而是相對地我們要加強我們管控的力道。"],["郭委員國文：我沒有要箝制，我沒有能力箝制，我也沒有主張不開放……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們背後有一套監視的……"],["郭委員國文：我只是說有這種弊端要去除而已喔。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會再三地跟他們宣導，我們有一套監視的系統，其實凡走過都必留下痕跡。"],["郭委員國文：一個方式是事先的防範，也就是法律上他律的部分，然後再加強他的自律。再來，我們的投信投顧法有關違規罰款的部分，最近送進委員會的修正案，已將違規罰鍰從300萬提高至1500萬，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：這部分有提高，這是針對法人的部分，針對自然人的部分，有沒有可能提高？因為自然人，就實際的案例來看，雖然刑法上有五到七年或七年以上等等不同的刑期，但是就實際案例多半都是緩刑，這種東西怎麼會有嚇阻效果呢？也就是說，行政作為上你有處罰，你有揭露，但是最終到刑事審判的時候，卻是以緩刑作為收尾，這些經理人，他到人生後半段的時候，他就想乾脆我跟你賭一把好了，不是嗎？就會造成這種僥倖的結果。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會用制度來解決人性面的問題。我們還是希望我們的管制不要是一個無差別的管制，我們希望是真的有效的管制。"],["郭委員國文：我們是強調希望這個部分能夠再強化一點，當你一邊在開放的時候，另一邊的處罰機制就應該要強化，本席要跟你溝通的觀念就是這個而已，就是配套啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：主席，請再給我一點時間。","最後一個部分，有關於今天報告的推動亞太資產管理中心的具體作為，其中一項是「壯大投信」，然後你居然要鬆綁投資型保單的規範，讓它可連結槓桿型、反向型ETF還有非投資等級的，主委，我跟你拜託一下好不好。新上任的保險局局長是不是不清楚，去年7月1號的時候，我們才把這些高風險標的予以禁止而已，這個花了多少力氣啊！今年對於這個業界號稱的「五指山禁令」，你竟然想要暗渡陳倉把它開放，這個有道理嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我跟委員報告一下，這部分我們也經過仔細的評估，其實剛剛委員提到的，對一般客戶這部分是沒有開放的，這個部分我們的保護還是一樣維持；我們開放的是全委的部分，全委的部分只是對比率，因為我們現在也不是說，它的比率比如說……"],["郭委員國文：你是開放全委的部分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為全委是有專業的投資人在操作，而不是讓民眾去購買，我們想這個……"],["郭委員國文：你開放了比率，所以全委的部分就不設定比率了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：原來是20%，我們現在希望就這20%跟另外一個新興債10%這個部分來做調整，不是全……"],["郭委員國文：你可以調整，但不能開放啊！你如果考量有專業投資人操作的話，原本一成的比率可以多個一點五成或是多兩成，但你不能說讓一成就變成十成嘛，對不對？這個有什麼保障啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，這部分我們會……"],["郭委員國文：而且講白一點，你們要壯大投信，投信這幾年發展得這麼好，募了這麼多ETF，對不對？還有以後的REITs，它還需要你壯大嗎？還需要靠這種保單來壯大？這種高風險的保單，過去爭議就很多，你看投資型保單的爭議數量有沒有節節上升，你自己看。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。我們希望這部分是健全的成長，而不是盲目的成長。"],["郭委員國文：對！如果是這樣子，你就要好好的、小心的處理，你是寫「鬆綁」耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分我們是很謹慎地在做，剛才委員關注的是針對一般投資人的保護，我們一定堅守這個底線，但是確實比如說像美僑商會，他們也說全世界沒有人做這個限制，只有臺灣，但是……"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，美僑商會那些人就是broker，這個佣金就特別高，我跟你講白一點，所以他們會來lobby……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們會……"],["郭委員國文：要考慮到那些人背後的動機，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：這個才是關鍵的原因，你自己講出來，就是你被lobby嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝彭主委。接著我們請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}}