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{\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 532.401, \"end\": 532.421, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 532.421, \"end\": 532.441, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 532.441, \"end\": 532.541, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 532.541, \"end\": 532.561, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 532.561, \"end\": 532.581, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,951 --> 00:00:14,155\n來下一位委員請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請主委請國安會劉主委劉主委早安張委員早\n\n2\n00:00:22,999 --> 00:00:39,817\n今天我們在探討的這個少子化問題我想對一個國家來說人力即是國力人口代表著生產力跟競爭力那低迷的這個生育率將使我們國家的勞動力減少稅收減少社會支出增多\n\n3\n00:00:40,297 --> 00:01:06,337\n學校體系崩潰包括社會撫養負擔加重嚴重的來說是讓我們走向滅國的危機啊所以請問國發會主委喔主委本席在10月7號的時候質詢您的時候曾問您說2024年的這個人口推估報告到底什麼時候會發布那您說10月17日那對於國發會說到做到本席給予\n\n4\n00:01:07,317 --> 00:01:24,737\n高度的肯定,但是本席想詢問的是,方案及做法,那時候你告訴我說延遲上傳的理由是因為希望帶著方案與做法來面對,但是呢,在這一份人口推估報告中,本席翻了你們112頁的報告,\n\n5\n00:01:28,702 --> 00:01:53,680\n從頭到尾都沒有提出解決的方案只有在新聞稿裡面稍稍提及那今天的主軸如何解決少子化的問題原本期待是針對少子化國發會可以提出具體的政策手段跟目標但是大家不知道有沒有看今天的報告今天的書面報告竟然怎麼解決少子化的問題只有143個字\n\n6\n00:01:57,199 --> 00:02:20,131\n只有143個字。」主委你可以說明一下嗎?我跟您報告我們其實開了幾個小型會議大型的跨部會議一個是在10月1號陳時中政委及和所有的部會相關部會一個重大的討論我們盤點了所有的內容希望大家進行改善的規劃\n\n7\n00:02:21,472 --> 00:02:28,058\n然後呢我們在10月17號我國家發展委員會是一個跨部會的首長所以你現在在告訴本席就是說你們開的會議相當的沒有效率而且也提出具體的作為所以具體的作為是什麼過去16年過去16年兩任總統都提出這是國安問題\n\n8\n00:02:40,609 --> 00:03:00,151\n我們不可能在兩個月內或是一個月內我們就可以馬上成為委員我們現在是基於這個方案上面我們進行優化優化我們算出來的錢呢大家一千億以上我們希望委員能支持我們預算來做這些事情預算當然只要你花的合理對國家有幫助我們沒有理由反對\n\n9\n00:03:01,132 --> 00:03:14,802\n大家給你們時間就是希望國發會可以拿出誠意拿出你們的想法如何解決少子化的問題但是你們到目前你們到目前只寫了143個字搞不好你連143個字的內容\n\n10\n00:03:19,665 --> 00:03:38,720\n主委搞不好都還不理解。」那我想這感覺就像是ChartGPT寫出來的就直接跟ChartGPT寫說整理出國際上各種解決少子化的方案就想交差了事這種態度似乎有一點太草率了本席覺得你們應該要再振奮一點\n\n11\n00:03:40,451 --> 00:03:57,696\n委員在我們的報告裡面我們提到其實我們國家已經有10個相關的法令跟計畫正在進行中包括少子化、中高齡等等然後也提出了各部會的施政的主軸跟方向所以你現在這份報告是滿意的意思嗎?你現在在告訴本席說你對於這份報告對於少子化只有提出143個字的建議你是滿意的囉?\n\n12\n00:04:05,718 --> 00:04:10,620\n我沒有這樣講,但是以今天報告的時間來講,我只能準備這麼多的資料。」是啊,那你如果不滿意的話,你要更努力啊,你要答應本席,答應我們委員會說,國發會應該更努力才對啊。檢報跟實際做的計畫是沒辦法一致的。那你現在告訴我,我現在就是親自讓你講,你講你現在目前針對少子化有什麼具體化的作為?\n\n13\n00:04:30,460 --> 00:04:47,148\n我們做了相當的分析我講幾個比較大的重點就是第一個我們過去並比較沒有太花時間在談結婚率的問題那我們現在看到結婚率的比重是比較低第二個延後生育所以結婚率你可以拿出什麼具體作為\n\n14\n00:04:48,561 --> 00:05:15,406\n你講得非常好我們其實探討了非常久我們一直在debate一個事情父母解不掉小孩的問題國家有沒有能力解掉這麼多小孩的問題那我們只能解我們現在著重兩個方向第一個是想生有困難的譬如說0到6歲國家一起養包括我們強化對於不應證的解方包括我們再談到動亂的可能包括我們也會有新的法案讓\n\n15\n00:05:16,826 --> 00:05:24,869\n坦白講讓單身的婦女可以做人工受孕等等我們希望先幫助想生的人先生那我們現在跟您報告去年有一萬多個小孩是因為不應證的補助而生出來的0到6歲國家養這個口號其實是真的喊得正天響\n\n16\n00:05:33,413 --> 00:05:41,420\n但是呢涉及的面向深度、廣度跟投入的資源真的是有待加強我希望說國發會既然你已經提出了那你要努力去爭取預算啊我們一定會支持但是你要說服其他的包括你行政院內部\n\n17\n00:05:50,287 --> 00:06:14,478\n要說服大家說為什麼這個這麼重要那你送到立法院來我們當然要支持啊因為這個力道真的是有待加強那本席也清楚說全世界的已開發國家大部分都面臨著人口自然增加率降低甚至負數的問題甚至有一些已開發國家他們已經這個高於平均那我的意思就是說您知道\n\n18\n00:06:14,898 --> 00:06:40,658\n有哪一些自然增加率不錯的國家是我們可以學習的那我們以加拿大為例好了就是政府鼓勵生育的政策我們是0至6歲國家養他們是0至17歲都國家養包括0至5歲每年最高補助是17.8萬台幣6至17每年是15萬台幣的補助這直接是由現金補助其他包括產價、育嬰價\n\n19\n00:06:42,479 --> 00:06:47,984\n等有15週全新的產價這其實我覺得都是國發會可以參考的那我想就是這個可以借鏡的部分很多那主委同意嗎?這一點我同意那但是我們算過他要1000多億這個我們真的算過因為日本也是0到18歲每人每月是1萬日幣到3萬日幣1000億你要想喔我們普波台電已經4000億了\n\n20\n00:07:11,383 --> 00:07:33,195\n而且是花在我們看不到的地方,這一千億我覺得如果你投資在少子化等級大大的支持你不要花在那種你去做非核家園你去做這個關閉核能廠然後讓我們無形中花這麼多錢然後對社會也沒有大大任何幫助你同不同意你同不同意說其實撥補台電的錢應該拿來投資在少子化上面\n\n21\n00:07:35,436 --> 00:07:36,357\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n22\n00:07:51,209 --> 00:08:03,203\n我們其實就我瞭解當時是不希望電力太高的漲價去傷害到人民的利益,我想大家都有這個想法。那我們現在回到我們剛才談的少子化的地步。所以你覺得少子化投資一千億你覺得很多嗎?\n\n23\n00:08:11,031 --> 00:08:21,841\n不,我想法跟你一樣所以我講我很支持您的看法但是這個部分的財源不足如果有特別預算我覺得會比較容易就是我們回到這個報告本身明年我們即將進入老年化人口超過兩成的超高齡社會那四年後人口紅利就正式結束了甚至2070年我們台灣會剩下不到1500萬的人\n\n24\n00:08:35,333 --> 00:08:52,581\n那我們現在目前會面臨著社會福利縮水年輕勞動力匱乏甚至整個社會都失去活力現在台灣就已經出現各級學校都招不到學生傳統產業缺工募兵而達不到目標的狀況國發會有什麼對策嗎?我們可能用書面說明吧好,麻煩,謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5951\t14155\t來下一位委員請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請主委請國安會劉主委劉主委早安張委員早\n22999\t39817\t今天我們在探討的這個少子化問題我想對一個國家來說人力即是國力人口代表著生產力跟競爭力那低迷的這個生育率將使我們國家的勞動力減少稅收減少社會支出增多\n40297\t66337\t學校體系崩潰包括社會撫養負擔加重嚴重的來說是讓我們走向滅國的危機啊所以請問國發會主委喔主委本席在10月7號的時候質詢您的時候曾問您說2024年的這個人口推估報告到底什麼時候會發布那您說10月17日那對於國發會說到做到本席給予\n67317\t84737\t高度的肯定,但是本席想詢問的是,方案及做法,那時候你告訴我說延遲上傳的理由是因為希望帶著方案與做法來面對,但是呢,在這一份人口推估報告中,本席翻了你們112頁的報告,\n88702\t113680\t從頭到尾都沒有提出解決的方案只有在新聞稿裡面稍稍提及那今天的主軸如何解決少子化的問題原本期待是針對少子化國發會可以提出具體的政策手段跟目標但是大家不知道有沒有看今天的報告今天的書面報告竟然怎麼解決少子化的問題只有143個字\n117199\t140131\t只有143個字。」主委你可以說明一下嗎?我跟您報告我們其實開了幾個小型會議大型的跨部會議一個是在10月1號陳時中政委及和所有的部會相關部會一個重大的討論我們盤點了所有的內容希望大家進行改善的規劃\n141472\t148058\t然後呢我們在10月17號我國家發展委員會是一個跨部會的首長所以你現在在告訴本席就是說你們開的會議相當的沒有效率而且也提出具體的作為所以具體的作為是什麼過去16年過去16年兩任總統都提出這是國安問題\n160609\t180151\t我們不可能在兩個月內或是一個月內我們就可以馬上成為委員我們現在是基於這個方案上面我們進行優化優化我們算出來的錢呢大家一千億以上我們希望委員能支持我們預算來做這些事情預算當然只要你花的合理對國家有幫助我們沒有理由反對\n181132\t194802\t大家給你們時間就是希望國發會可以拿出誠意拿出你們的想法如何解決少子化的問題但是你們到目前你們到目前只寫了143個字搞不好你連143個字的內容\n199665\t218720\t主委搞不好都還不理解。」那我想這感覺就像是ChartGPT寫出來的就直接跟ChartGPT寫說整理出國際上各種解決少子化的方案就想交差了事這種態度似乎有一點太草率了本席覺得你們應該要再振奮一點\n220451\t237696\t委員在我們的報告裡面我們提到其實我們國家已經有10個相關的法令跟計畫正在進行中包括少子化、中高齡等等然後也提出了各部會的施政的主軸跟方向所以你現在這份報告是滿意的意思嗎?你現在在告訴本席說你對於這份報告對於少子化只有提出143個字的建議你是滿意的囉?\n245718\t250620\t我沒有這樣講,但是以今天報告的時間來講,我只能準備這麼多的資料。」是啊,那你如果不滿意的話,你要更努力啊,你要答應本席,答應我們委員會說,國發會應該更努力才對啊。檢報跟實際做的計畫是沒辦法一致的。那你現在告訴我,我現在就是親自讓你講,你講你現在目前針對少子化有什麼具體化的作為?\n270460\t287148\t我們做了相當的分析我講幾個比較大的重點就是第一個我們過去並比較沒有太花時間在談結婚率的問題那我們現在看到結婚率的比重是比較低第二個延後生育所以結婚率你可以拿出什麼具體作為\n288561\t315406\t你講得非常好我們其實探討了非常久我們一直在debate一個事情父母解不掉小孩的問題國家有沒有能力解掉這麼多小孩的問題那我們只能解我們現在著重兩個方向第一個是想生有困難的譬如說0到6歲國家一起養包括我們強化對於不應證的解方包括我們再談到動亂的可能包括我們也會有新的法案讓\n316826\t324869\t坦白講讓單身的婦女可以做人工受孕等等我們希望先幫助想生的人先生那我們現在跟您報告去年有一萬多個小孩是因為不應證的補助而生出來的0到6歲國家養這個口號其實是真的喊得正天響\n333413\t341420\t但是呢涉及的面向深度、廣度跟投入的資源真的是有待加強我希望說國發會既然你已經提出了那你要努力去爭取預算啊我們一定會支持但是你要說服其他的包括你行政院內部\n350287\t374478\t要說服大家說為什麼這個這麼重要那你送到立法院來我們當然要支持啊因為這個力道真的是有待加強那本席也清楚說全世界的已開發國家大部分都面臨著人口自然增加率降低甚至負數的問題甚至有一些已開發國家他們已經這個高於平均那我的意思就是說您知道\n374898\t400658\t有哪一些自然增加率不錯的國家是我們可以學習的那我們以加拿大為例好了就是政府鼓勵生育的政策我們是0至6歲國家養他們是0至17歲都國家養包括0至5歲每年最高補助是17.8萬台幣6至17每年是15萬台幣的補助這直接是由現金補助其他包括產價、育嬰價\n402479\t407984\t等有15週全新的產價這其實我覺得都是國發會可以參考的那我想就是這個可以借鏡的部分很多那主委同意嗎?這一點我同意那但是我們算過他要1000多億這個我們真的算過因為日本也是0到18歲每人每月是1萬日幣到3萬日幣1000億你要想喔我們普波台電已經4000億了\n431383\t453195\t而且是花在我們看不到的地方,這一千億我覺得如果你投資在少子化等級大大的支持你不要花在那種你去做非核家園你去做這個關閉核能廠然後讓我們無形中花這麼多錢然後對社會也沒有大大任何幫助你同不同意你同不同意說其實撥補台電的錢應該拿來投資在少子化上面\n455436\t456357\t二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n471209\t483203\t我們其實就我瞭解當時是不希望電力太高的漲價去傷害到人民的利益,我想大家都有這個想法。那我們現在回到我們剛才談的少子化的地步。所以你覺得少子化投資一千億你覺得很多嗎?\n491031\t501841\t不,我想法跟你一樣所以我講我很支持您的看法但是這個部分的財源不足如果有特別預算我覺得會比較容易就是我們回到這個報告本身明年我們即將進入老年化人口超過兩成的超高齡社會那四年後人口紅利就正式結束了甚至2070年我們台灣會剩下不到1500萬的人\n515333\t532581\t那我們現在目前會面臨著社會福利縮水年輕勞動力匱乏甚至整個社會都失去活力現在台灣就已經出現各級學校都招不到學生傳統產業缺工募兵而達不到目標的狀況國發會有什麼對策嗎?我們可能用書面說明吧好,麻煩,謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"來下一位委員請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請主委請國安會劉主委劉主委早安張委員早\n今天我們在探討的這個少子化問題我想對一個國家來說人力即是國力人口代表著生產力跟競爭力那低迷的這個生育率將使我們國家的勞動力減少稅收減少社會支出增多\n學校體系崩潰包括社會撫養負擔加重嚴重的來說是讓我們走向滅國的危機啊所以請問國發會主委喔主委本席在10月7號的時候質詢您的時候曾問您說2024年的這個人口推估報告到底什麼時候會發布那您說10月17日那對於國發會說到做到本席給予\n高度的肯定,但是本席想詢問的是,方案及做法,那時候你告訴我說延遲上傳的理由是因為希望帶著方案與做法來面對,但是呢,在這一份人口推估報告中,本席翻了你們112頁的報告,\n從頭到尾都沒有提出解決的方案只有在新聞稿裡面稍稍提及那今天的主軸如何解決少子化的問題原本期待是針對少子化國發會可以提出具體的政策手段跟目標但是大家不知道有沒有看今天的報告今天的書面報告竟然怎麼解決少子化的問題只有143個字\n只有143個字。」主委你可以說明一下嗎?我跟您報告我們其實開了幾個小型會議大型的跨部會議一個是在10月1號陳時中政委及和所有的部會相關部會一個重大的討論我們盤點了所有的內容希望大家進行改善的規劃\n然後呢我們在10月17號我國家發展委員會是一個跨部會的首長所以你現在在告訴本席就是說你們開的會議相當的沒有效率而且也提出具體的作為所以具體的作為是什麼過去16年過去16年兩任總統都提出這是國安問題\n我們不可能在兩個月內或是一個月內我們就可以馬上成為委員我們現在是基於這個方案上面我們進行優化優化我們算出來的錢呢大家一千億以上我們希望委員能支持我們預算來做這些事情預算當然只要你花的合理對國家有幫助我們沒有理由反對\n大家給你們時間就是希望國發會可以拿出誠意拿出你們的想法如何解決少子化的問題但是你們到目前你們到目前只寫了143個字搞不好你連143個字的內容\n主委搞不好都還不理解。」那我想這感覺就像是ChartGPT寫出來的就直接跟ChartGPT寫說整理出國際上各種解決少子化的方案就想交差了事這種態度似乎有一點太草率了本席覺得你們應該要再振奮一點\n委員在我們的報告裡面我們提到其實我們國家已經有10個相關的法令跟計畫正在進行中包括少子化、中高齡等等然後也提出了各部會的施政的主軸跟方向所以你現在這份報告是滿意的意思嗎?你現在在告訴本席說你對於這份報告對於少子化只有提出143個字的建議你是滿意的囉?\n我沒有這樣講,但是以今天報告的時間來講,我只能準備這麼多的資料。」是啊,那你如果不滿意的話,你要更努力啊,你要答應本席,答應我們委員會說,國發會應該更努力才對啊。檢報跟實際做的計畫是沒辦法一致的。那你現在告訴我,我現在就是親自讓你講,你講你現在目前針對少子化有什麼具體化的作為?\n我們做了相當的分析我講幾個比較大的重點就是第一個我們過去並比較沒有太花時間在談結婚率的問題那我們現在看到結婚率的比重是比較低第二個延後生育所以結婚率你可以拿出什麼具體作為\n你講得非常好我們其實探討了非常久我們一直在debate一個事情父母解不掉小孩的問題國家有沒有能力解掉這麼多小孩的問題那我們只能解我們現在著重兩個方向第一個是想生有困難的譬如說0到6歲國家一起養包括我們強化對於不應證的解方包括我們再談到動亂的可能包括我們也會有新的法案讓\n坦白講讓單身的婦女可以做人工受孕等等我們希望先幫助想生的人先生那我們現在跟您報告去年有一萬多個小孩是因為不應證的補助而生出來的0到6歲國家養這個口號其實是真的喊得正天響\n但是呢涉及的面向深度、廣度跟投入的資源真的是有待加強我希望說國發會既然你已經提出了那你要努力去爭取預算啊我們一定會支持但是你要說服其他的包括你行政院內部\n要說服大家說為什麼這個這麼重要那你送到立法院來我們當然要支持啊因為這個力道真的是有待加強那本席也清楚說全世界的已開發國家大部分都面臨著人口自然增加率降低甚至負數的問題甚至有一些已開發國家他們已經這個高於平均那我的意思就是說您知道\n有哪一些自然增加率不錯的國家是我們可以學習的那我們以加拿大為例好了就是政府鼓勵生育的政策我們是0至6歲國家養他們是0至17歲都國家養包括0至5歲每年最高補助是17.8萬台幣6至17每年是15萬台幣的補助這直接是由現金補助其他包括產價、育嬰價\n等有15週全新的產價這其實我覺得都是國發會可以參考的那我想就是這個可以借鏡的部分很多那主委同意嗎?這一點我同意那但是我們算過他要1000多億這個我們真的算過因為日本也是0到18歲每人每月是1萬日幣到3萬日幣1000億你要想喔我們普波台電已經4000億了\n而且是花在我們看不到的地方,這一千億我覺得如果你投資在少子化等級大大的支持你不要花在那種你去做非核家園你去做這個關閉核能廠然後讓我們無形中花這麼多錢然後對社會也沒有大大任何幫助你同不同意你同不同意說其實撥補台電的錢應該拿來投資在少子化上面\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n我們其實就我瞭解當時是不希望電力太高的漲價去傷害到人民的利益,我想大家都有這個想法。那我們現在回到我們剛才談的少子化的地步。所以你覺得少子化投資一千億你覺得很多嗎?\n不,我想法跟你一樣所以我講我很支持您的看法但是這個部分的財源不足如果有特別預算我覺得會比較容易就是我們回到這個報告本身明年我們即將進入老年化人口超過兩成的超高齡社會那四年後人口紅利就正式結束了甚至2070年我們台灣會剩下不到1500萬的人\n那我們現在目前會面臨著社會福利縮水年輕勞動力匱乏甚至整個社會都失去活力現在台灣就已經出現各級學校都招不到學生傳統產業缺工募兵而達不到目標的狀況國發會有什麼對策嗎?我們可能用書面說明吧好,麻煩,謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.951 --> 00:14.155\n來下一位委員請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請主委請國安會劉主委劉主委早安張委員早\n\n00:22.999 --> 00:39.817\n今天我們在探討的這個少子化問題我想對一個國家來說人力即是國力人口代表著生產力跟競爭力那低迷的這個生育率將使我們國家的勞動力減少稅收減少社會支出增多\n\n00:40.297 --> 01:06.337\n學校體系崩潰包括社會撫養負擔加重嚴重的來說是讓我們走向滅國的危機啊所以請問國發會主委喔主委本席在10月7號的時候質詢您的時候曾問您說2024年的這個人口推估報告到底什麼時候會發布那您說10月17日那對於國發會說到做到本席給予\n\n01:07.317 --> 01:24.737\n高度的肯定,但是本席想詢問的是,方案及做法,那時候你告訴我說延遲上傳的理由是因為希望帶著方案與做法來面對,但是呢,在這一份人口推估報告中,本席翻了你們112頁的報告,\n\n01:28.702 --> 01:53.680\n從頭到尾都沒有提出解決的方案只有在新聞稿裡面稍稍提及那今天的主軸如何解決少子化的問題原本期待是針對少子化國發會可以提出具體的政策手段跟目標但是大家不知道有沒有看今天的報告今天的書面報告竟然怎麼解決少子化的問題只有143個字\n\n01:57.199 --> 02:20.131\n只有143個字。」主委你可以說明一下嗎?我跟您報告我們其實開了幾個小型會議大型的跨部會議一個是在10月1號陳時中政委及和所有的部會相關部會一個重大的討論我們盤點了所有的內容希望大家進行改善的規劃\n\n02:21.472 --> 02:28.058\n然後呢我們在10月17號我國家發展委員會是一個跨部會的首長所以你現在在告訴本席就是說你們開的會議相當的沒有效率而且也提出具體的作為所以具體的作為是什麼過去16年過去16年兩任總統都提出這是國安問題\n\n02:40.609 --> 03:00.151\n我們不可能在兩個月內或是一個月內我們就可以馬上成為委員我們現在是基於這個方案上面我們進行優化優化我們算出來的錢呢大家一千億以上我們希望委員能支持我們預算來做這些事情預算當然只要你花的合理對國家有幫助我們沒有理由反對\n\n03:01.132 --> 03:14.802\n大家給你們時間就是希望國發會可以拿出誠意拿出你們的想法如何解決少子化的問題但是你們到目前你們到目前只寫了143個字搞不好你連143個字的內容\n\n03:19.665 --> 03:38.720\n主委搞不好都還不理解。」那我想這感覺就像是ChartGPT寫出來的就直接跟ChartGPT寫說整理出國際上各種解決少子化的方案就想交差了事這種態度似乎有一點太草率了本席覺得你們應該要再振奮一點\n\n03:40.451 --> 03:57.696\n委員在我們的報告裡面我們提到其實我們國家已經有10個相關的法令跟計畫正在進行中包括少子化、中高齡等等然後也提出了各部會的施政的主軸跟方向所以你現在這份報告是滿意的意思嗎?你現在在告訴本席說你對於這份報告對於少子化只有提出143個字的建議你是滿意的囉?\n\n04:05.718 --> 04:10.620\n我沒有這樣講,但是以今天報告的時間來講,我只能準備這麼多的資料。」是啊,那你如果不滿意的話,你要更努力啊,你要答應本席,答應我們委員會說,國發會應該更努力才對啊。檢報跟實際做的計畫是沒辦法一致的。那你現在告訴我,我現在就是親自讓你講,你講你現在目前針對少子化有什麼具體化的作為?\n\n04:30.460 --> 04:47.148\n我們做了相當的分析我講幾個比較大的重點就是第一個我們過去並比較沒有太花時間在談結婚率的問題那我們現在看到結婚率的比重是比較低第二個延後生育所以結婚率你可以拿出什麼具體作為\n\n04:48.561 --> 05:15.406\n你講得非常好我們其實探討了非常久我們一直在debate一個事情父母解不掉小孩的問題國家有沒有能力解掉這麼多小孩的問題那我們只能解我們現在著重兩個方向第一個是想生有困難的譬如說0到6歲國家一起養包括我們強化對於不應證的解方包括我們再談到動亂的可能包括我們也會有新的法案讓\n\n05:16.826 --> 05:24.869\n坦白講讓單身的婦女可以做人工受孕等等我們希望先幫助想生的人先生那我們現在跟您報告去年有一萬多個小孩是因為不應證的補助而生出來的0到6歲國家養這個口號其實是真的喊得正天響\n\n05:33.413 --> 05:41.420\n但是呢涉及的面向深度、廣度跟投入的資源真的是有待加強我希望說國發會既然你已經提出了那你要努力去爭取預算啊我們一定會支持但是你要說服其他的包括你行政院內部\n\n05:50.287 --> 06:14.478\n要說服大家說為什麼這個這麼重要那你送到立法院來我們當然要支持啊因為這個力道真的是有待加強那本席也清楚說全世界的已開發國家大部分都面臨著人口自然增加率降低甚至負數的問題甚至有一些已開發國家他們已經這個高於平均那我的意思就是說您知道\n\n06:14.898 --> 06:40.658\n有哪一些自然增加率不錯的國家是我們可以學習的那我們以加拿大為例好了就是政府鼓勵生育的政策我們是0至6歲國家養他們是0至17歲都國家養包括0至5歲每年最高補助是17.8萬台幣6至17每年是15萬台幣的補助這直接是由現金補助其他包括產價、育嬰價\n\n06:42.479 --> 06:47.984\n等有15週全新的產價這其實我覺得都是國發會可以參考的那我想就是這個可以借鏡的部分很多那主委同意嗎?這一點我同意那但是我們算過他要1000多億這個我們真的算過因為日本也是0到18歲每人每月是1萬日幣到3萬日幣1000億你要想喔我們普波台電已經4000億了\n\n07:11.383 --> 07:33.195\n而且是花在我們看不到的地方,這一千億我覺得如果你投資在少子化等級大大的支持你不要花在那種你去做非核家園你去做這個關閉核能廠然後讓我們無形中花這麼多錢然後對社會也沒有大大任何幫助你同不同意你同不同意說其實撥補台電的錢應該拿來投資在少子化上面\n\n07:35.436 --> 07:36.357\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n07:51.209 --> 08:03.203\n我們其實就我瞭解當時是不希望電力太高的漲價去傷害到人民的利益,我想大家都有這個想法。那我們現在回到我們剛才談的少子化的地步。所以你覺得少子化投資一千億你覺得很多嗎?\n\n08:11.031 --> 08:21.841\n不,我想法跟你一樣所以我講我很支持您的看法但是這個部分的財源不足如果有特別預算我覺得會比較容易就是我們回到這個報告本身明年我們即將進入老年化人口超過兩成的超高齡社會那四年後人口紅利就正式結束了甚至2070年我們台灣會剩下不到1500萬的人\n\n08:35.333 --> 08:52.581\n那我們現在目前會面臨著社會福利縮水年輕勞動力匱乏甚至整個社會都失去活力現在台灣就已經出現各級學校都招不到學生傳統產業缺工募兵而達不到目標的狀況國發會有什麼對策嗎?我們可能用書面說明吧好,麻煩,謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.951,"end":14.155,"text":"來下一位委員請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請主委請國安會劉主委劉主委早安張委員早"},{"start":22.999,"end":39.817,"text":"今天我們在探討的這個少子化問題我想對一個國家來說人力即是國力人口代表著生產力跟競爭力那低迷的這個生育率將使我們國家的勞動力減少稅收減少社會支出增多"},{"start":40.297,"end":66.337,"text":"學校體系崩潰包括社會撫養負擔加重嚴重的來說是讓我們走向滅國的危機啊所以請問國發會主委喔主委本席在10月7號的時候質詢您的時候曾問您說2024年的這個人口推估報告到底什麼時候會發布那您說10月17日那對於國發會說到做到本席給予"},{"start":67.317,"end":84.737,"text":"高度的肯定,但是本席想詢問的是,方案及做法,那時候你告訴我說延遲上傳的理由是因為希望帶著方案與做法來面對,但是呢,在這一份人口推估報告中,本席翻了你們112頁的報告,"},{"start":88.702,"end":113.68,"text":"從頭到尾都沒有提出解決的方案只有在新聞稿裡面稍稍提及那今天的主軸如何解決少子化的問題原本期待是針對少子化國發會可以提出具體的政策手段跟目標但是大家不知道有沒有看今天的報告今天的書面報告竟然怎麼解決少子化的問題只有143個字"},{"start":117.199,"end":140.131,"text":"只有143個字。」主委你可以說明一下嗎?我跟您報告我們其實開了幾個小型會議大型的跨部會議一個是在10月1號陳時中政委及和所有的部會相關部會一個重大的討論我們盤點了所有的內容希望大家進行改善的規劃"},{"start":141.472,"end":148.058,"text":"然後呢我們在10月17號我國家發展委員會是一個跨部會的首長所以你現在在告訴本席就是說你們開的會議相當的沒有效率而且也提出具體的作為所以具體的作為是什麼過去16年過去16年兩任總統都提出這是國安問題"},{"start":160.609,"end":180.151,"text":"我們不可能在兩個月內或是一個月內我們就可以馬上成為委員我們現在是基於這個方案上面我們進行優化優化我們算出來的錢呢大家一千億以上我們希望委員能支持我們預算來做這些事情預算當然只要你花的合理對國家有幫助我們沒有理由反對"},{"start":181.132,"end":194.802,"text":"大家給你們時間就是希望國發會可以拿出誠意拿出你們的想法如何解決少子化的問題但是你們到目前你們到目前只寫了143個字搞不好你連143個字的內容"},{"start":199.665,"end":218.72,"text":"主委搞不好都還不理解。」那我想這感覺就像是ChartGPT寫出來的就直接跟ChartGPT寫說整理出國際上各種解決少子化的方案就想交差了事這種態度似乎有一點太草率了本席覺得你們應該要再振奮一點"},{"start":220.451,"end":237.696,"text":"委員在我們的報告裡面我們提到其實我們國家已經有10個相關的法令跟計畫正在進行中包括少子化、中高齡等等然後也提出了各部會的施政的主軸跟方向所以你現在這份報告是滿意的意思嗎?你現在在告訴本席說你對於這份報告對於少子化只有提出143個字的建議你是滿意的囉?"},{"start":245.718,"end":250.62,"text":"我沒有這樣講,但是以今天報告的時間來講,我只能準備這麼多的資料。」是啊,那你如果不滿意的話,你要更努力啊,你要答應本席,答應我們委員會說,國發會應該更努力才對啊。檢報跟實際做的計畫是沒辦法一致的。那你現在告訴我,我現在就是親自讓你講,你講你現在目前針對少子化有什麼具體化的作為?"},{"start":270.46,"end":287.148,"text":"我們做了相當的分析我講幾個比較大的重點就是第一個我們過去並比較沒有太花時間在談結婚率的問題那我們現在看到結婚率的比重是比較低第二個延後生育所以結婚率你可以拿出什麼具體作為"},{"start":288.561,"end":315.406,"text":"你講得非常好我們其實探討了非常久我們一直在debate一個事情父母解不掉小孩的問題國家有沒有能力解掉這麼多小孩的問題那我們只能解我們現在著重兩個方向第一個是想生有困難的譬如說0到6歲國家一起養包括我們強化對於不應證的解方包括我們再談到動亂的可能包括我們也會有新的法案讓"},{"start":316.826,"end":324.869,"text":"坦白講讓單身的婦女可以做人工受孕等等我們希望先幫助想生的人先生那我們現在跟您報告去年有一萬多個小孩是因為不應證的補助而生出來的0到6歲國家養這個口號其實是真的喊得正天響"},{"start":333.413,"end":341.42,"text":"但是呢涉及的面向深度、廣度跟投入的資源真的是有待加強我希望說國發會既然你已經提出了那你要努力去爭取預算啊我們一定會支持但是你要說服其他的包括你行政院內部"},{"start":350.287,"end":374.478,"text":"要說服大家說為什麼這個這麼重要那你送到立法院來我們當然要支持啊因為這個力道真的是有待加強那本席也清楚說全世界的已開發國家大部分都面臨著人口自然增加率降低甚至負數的問題甚至有一些已開發國家他們已經這個高於平均那我的意思就是說您知道"},{"start":374.898,"end":400.658,"text":"有哪一些自然增加率不錯的國家是我們可以學習的那我們以加拿大為例好了就是政府鼓勵生育的政策我們是0至6歲國家養他們是0至17歲都國家養包括0至5歲每年最高補助是17.8萬台幣6至17每年是15萬台幣的補助這直接是由現金補助其他包括產價、育嬰價"},{"start":402.479,"end":407.984,"text":"等有15週全新的產價這其實我覺得都是國發會可以參考的那我想就是這個可以借鏡的部分很多那主委同意嗎?這一點我同意那但是我們算過他要1000多億這個我們真的算過因為日本也是0到18歲每人每月是1萬日幣到3萬日幣1000億你要想喔我們普波台電已經4000億了"},{"start":431.383,"end":453.195,"text":"而且是花在我們看不到的地方,這一千億我覺得如果你投資在少子化等級大大的支持你不要花在那種你去做非核家園你去做這個關閉核能廠然後讓我們無形中花這麼多錢然後對社會也沒有大大任何幫助你同不同意你同不同意說其實撥補台電的錢應該拿來投資在少子化上面"},{"start":455.436,"end":456.357,"text":"二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":471.209,"end":483.203,"text":"我們其實就我瞭解當時是不希望電力太高的漲價去傷害到人民的利益,我想大家都有這個想法。那我們現在回到我們剛才談的少子化的地步。所以你覺得少子化投資一千億你覺得很多嗎?"},{"start":491.031,"end":501.841,"text":"不,我想法跟你一樣所以我講我很支持您的看法但是這個部分的財源不足如果有特別預算我覺得會比較容易就是我們回到這個報告本身明年我們即將進入老年化人口超過兩成的超高齡社會那四年後人口紅利就正式結束了甚至2070年我們台灣會剩下不到1500萬的人"},{"start":515.333,"end":532.581,"text":"那我們現在目前會面臨著社會福利縮水年輕勞動力匱乏甚至整個社會都失去活力現在台灣就已經出現各級學校都招不到學生傳統產業缺工募兵而達不到目標的狀況國發會有什麼對策嗎?我們可能用書面說明吧好,麻煩,謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時10分）主席，我想請主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["張委員嘉郡：劉主委早安。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：張委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：今天我們在探討少子化問題，我想對一個國家來說，人力即是國力，人口代表著生產力跟競爭力，低迷的生育率將使我們國家的勞動力減少，稅收減少，社會支出增多，學校體系崩潰，包括社會扶養負擔加重，嚴重的來說，是讓我們走向滅國的危機。所以請問國發會主委，本席在10月7日質詢您的時候，曾問您說，2024年的人口推估報告到底什麼時候會發布？您說10月17日。對於國發會說到做到，本席給予高度的肯定，本席想詢問的是，那時候你告訴我說延時上傳的理由是因為希望帶著方案與作法來面對，但是在這份人口推估報告中，本席翻了你們112頁的報告，從頭到尾都沒有提出解決的方案，只有在新聞稿裡面稍稍提及。今天的主軸──如何解決少子化的問題，本席原本期待是針對少子化，國發會可以提出具體的政策手段跟目標，但是大家不知道有沒有看今天的報告？今天的書面報告對於怎麼解決少子化的問題竟然只有143個字，只有143個字！主委，你可以說明一下嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟您報告，我們其實開了幾個小型會議，而大型的跨部會會議，一個是在10月1日陳時中政委集合所有相關部會進行一個重大的討論，我們盤點了所有的內容，希望大家持續去進行改善的規劃。然後我們在10月17日，國家發展委員會是一個跨部會的……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你現在在告訴本席，你們開的會議相當的沒有效率，而且也提不出具體的作為。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不會沒有效率。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以具體的作為是什麼？來，請說。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，過去16年來，兩任總統都提出這是國安問題，我們不可能在兩個月內或是一個月內就可以馬上解決……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，但是你總不能只有寫143個字吧！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在是基於這個方案上面進行優化……"],["張委員嘉郡：主委，大家給你們時間……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但優化我們算出來的錢，大概要1,000億以上……"],["張委員嘉郡：大家給你們時間，就是希望……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們希望委員能支持我們的預算來做這件事情。"],["張委員嘉郡：預算，當然，只要你花得合理，對國家有幫助，我們沒有理由反對，大家給你們時間，就是希望國發會可以拿出誠意，拿出你們的想法，如何解決少子化的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你們到目前只寫了143個字，搞不好主委連這143個字的內容都還不理解，這感覺就像是ChatGPT寫出來的，就直接跟ChatGPT寫說，整理出國際上各種解決少子化的方案，然後就想交差了事，這種態度似乎有一點太草率了，本席覺得你們應該要再振奮一點、要再努力一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，在我們的報告裡面，我們提到，其實我們國家已經有10個相關的法令跟計畫正在進行中，包括少子化、中高齡等等，也提出了各部會施政的主軸跟方向，現在重點是力度能不能變大……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你對這份報告是滿意的意思嗎？你現在是在告訴本席，你對於這份報告、對於少子化只有提出143個字的建議，你是滿意的囉？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有這樣講，但是以今天報告的時間來講……"],["張委員嘉郡：你現在的態度展現出來的意思就是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我只能準備這麼多的資料。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊，你如果不滿意的話，你要更努力啊！你要答應本席、答應我們委員會說，國發會應該要更努力才對啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：簡報跟實際做的計畫是沒辦法一致的。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你現在告訴我，我現在就是親自讓你講，你講你目前針對少子化有什麼具體化的作為？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們做了相當的分析，我講幾個比較大的重點，就是第一個，我們過去比較沒有太花時間在談結婚率的問題，我們現在看到結婚率的比重是比較低的，第二個延後生育，所以我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以結婚率你可以拿出什麼具體作為？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你講得非常好，我們其實探討了非常久，我們一直在debate一個事情，父母解不掉小孩的問題，國家有沒有能力解掉這麼多小孩的問題？我們現在著重兩個方向，第一個是想生但有困難的，譬如說0到6歲國家一起養，包括我們強化對於不孕症的解方，包括我們談到凍卵的可能，包括我們也會有新的法案，讓單身的婦女可以做人工受孕等等，我們希望先幫助想生的人先生……"],["張委員嘉郡：這些的確都應該要加強……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟你報告，去年有一萬多個小孩是因為不孕症的補助而生出來。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席認為0到6歲國家養這個口號真的喊得震天響，但是涉及的面向、深度、廣度跟投入的資源真的是有待加強，我希望……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，的確，因為預算不夠。"],["張委員嘉郡：既然國發會已經提出了，你要努力去爭取預算啊！我們一定會支持，但是你要說服其他的，包括行政院內部，你要說服大家說，為什麼這個這麼重要。你送到立法院來，我們當然要支持，因為這個力道真的是有待加強。本席也清楚的說，全世界的已開發國家大部分都面臨著人口自然增加率降低，甚至負數的問題，甚至有一些已開發國家已經高於平均。我的意思就是，您知道有哪一些自然增加率不錯的國家是我們可以學習的？以加拿大為例，我們政府鼓勵生育的政策是0至6歲國家養，他們是0至17歲都國家養，包括0至5歲每年最高補助是17.8萬臺幣，6至17歲每年是15萬臺幣的補助，這直接是由現金補助，其他包括產假、育嬰假等等，有15週全新的產假，我覺得這其實都是國發會可以參考的，我想可以借鏡的部分很多，主委同意嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這一點我同意，但是我們算過它要一千多億，這個我們真的算過，因為日本也是0到18歲每人每月是1萬日幣到3萬日幣，我們去算……"],["張委員嘉郡：1,000億，你要想喔！我們撥補台電已經4,000億了，而且是花在我們看不到的地方，我覺得如果這1,000億你投資在少子化，本席大大的支持，你不要花在那種……你去做非核家園，你去關閉核能廠，讓我們無形中花這麼多錢，然後對社會也沒有任何幫助。你同不同意？你同不同意其實撥補台電的錢應該拿來投資在少子化上面？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是兩個事情，撥補台電的部分是造福到所有的用電……"],["張委員嘉郡：造福到誰？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：造福到所有的用電者。"],["張委員嘉郡：造福到誰？你一度電一塊的核能不用，你要用五塊、八塊的錢，到底是為什麼？你告訴我，你解釋為什麼我們要多花那些錢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我了解，當時是不希望電力太高的漲價去傷害到人民的利益，我想大家都……"],["張委員嘉郡：哪裡？哪裡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在回到我們剛才談的少子化的議題……"],["張委員嘉郡：這是你政策面的問題，你政策面影響到國家去為這個買單……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，您對少子化的想法，我非常支持……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你覺得少子化投資1,000億很多嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不，我的想法跟您一樣，所以我講我很支持您的看法，但是這個部分的財源不足，如果有特別預算，我覺得會比較容易……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是我們回到這個報告本身……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果你可以支持，我們也可以跟院長報告……"],["張委員嘉郡：明年我們即將進入老年化、人口超過兩成的超高齡社會，4年後人口紅利就正式結束了，甚至2070年我們臺灣會剩下不到1,500萬人，我們現在會面臨社會福利縮水、年輕勞動力匱乏，甚至整個社會都失去活力。現在臺灣就已經出現各級學校都招不到學生、傳統產業缺工、募兵額達不到目標的狀況，國發會有什麼對策嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們可能用書面說明吧。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，麻煩，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員，主委請回座。","我們在鄭天財委員質詢之後休息。","接下來下一位質詢委員請陳亭妃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}}