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\"start\": 551.373, \"end\": 551.513, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 551.513, \"end\": 551.733, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"鄭\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 551.733, \"end\": 551.853, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 551.853, \"end\": 552.393, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 552.393, \"end\": 552.413, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,820 --> 00:00:31,138\n委員好謝謝主席今天特別安排了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的一個備詢跟審議那我在想說坦白說我看了這個壯世代這個相關的一個草案他其實是在立法院裡面也很少數碰到提案的是三黨的人都連署然後連署的裡面也是三黨就是跨黨派大家一起來\n\n2\n00:00:53,965 --> 00:01:15,051\n在台灣就是少子化問題大家都已經非常的理解然後在今年其實我們又通過了再生醫療法的時候我相信台灣的人均的壽命應該會越來越長所以我覺得在這時間點的時候來審這個壯世代相關的法案我覺得是有它一定的意義的\n\n3\n00:01:16,111 --> 00:01:38,008\n而且我發現說其實大部分的委員至少我到目前我聽到大家對於壯世代這個倡議都是肯定的高度的肯定包括剛剛何部長也提到這個部分那至於說我們是不是要有一個適當的法來把它變成一個我們後續去做follow的一個依法有據去做很多推動的時候\n\n4\n00:01:39,505 --> 00:02:09,188\n我覺得它還是有它的價值性所在所以我想說今天針對這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這部分的時候我也有幾個問題想先就教一下何部長跟很多因為今天有10個部會都到了這是一個很難得的狀態那顯然在之前溝通的時候可能各部會對壯世代這個概念我覺得也應該是抱持肯定的態度居多那我第一個問題我想先問一下國發會我先問一下國發會因為我看到我們整個人口那個推估的部分\n\n5\n00:02:11,249 --> 00:02:22,455\n國防部的人口推估其實很不準你知道嗎我們看到整個這個部分我以112年今年113年1到9月份的時候那比前一年99652也持續的\n\n6\n00:02:27,925 --> 00:02:52,853\n稍等話題我用這張圖來做一個簡單的表示我們看一下105年對於110年人口推估我們有低推估中規度跟高推估連低推估都不到然後不斷的在修改修改到111年推估出來的狀態的時候還是比實際數據來的高我們低推估都這麼不準我覺得這個部分是不是可以請國發會先簡單做一個簡單的回應一下這部分\n\n7\n00:02:56,494 --> 00:03:17,761\n今年我們在做整個推估的時候,其實我們用了中推估。但是本來我們的推估的方式也有做一些精進。是,因為中推估的話顯然會更不準,因為我已經用低推估的部分把它整理出來。那這沒關係,我在想說因為我們今天在審壯世代相關的法案的時候,我在想說\n\n8\n00:03:19,582 --> 00:03:44,575\n我這邊的時候就直接講到因為按照國發會這邊的推估的時候到2020到2070年的時候平均每5年會少100萬個那個有生產力的勞動力的人那這個部分我先跳過去因為我想接下來問題有跟勞動部有關的事情因為我就看你們國發會的數字那顯然台灣的少子化問題會非常的嚴重那在像我剛剛提到在生醫療法通過之後\n\n9\n00:03:44,835 --> 00:04:12,201\n我相信台灣的醫療水平會越來越好大家的人均壽命會越來越長所以我想說在這個部分的時候我要如何讓壯世代那壯世代這邊定義說實話他是55歲我看草案當中他是提55歲那是不是我們這個年紀定義要調整我覺得是開放的因為我也覺得55歲感覺有點年輕可是我相信就是當時在提這個法案55歲一定有他的道理在因為50歲可能是大家退休的年紀\n\n10\n00:04:12,981 --> 00:04:38,400\n他希望退休年紀之後是不會直接就開始休息就造成了很多就是撫養人的一個負擔所以我這邊的時候我想問一下就是何部長因為我看到了一個情況就是我們希望鼓勵65歲以上55歲的人繼續壯世代人繼續在職場當中除了要減輕撫養壓力之外那麼縮小人口人力的一個缺口\n\n11\n00:05:10,622 --> 00:05:30,369\n確實我們那個65歲以上的勞參率遠低於OECD國家,我們只有9%其他OECD國家人家都是20,10幾%左右所以這部分確實就是我們要致力於這一個部分提高的重點那我們有針對中高齡跟高齡者的這一個勞參那麼對他的這一個就業獎勵\n\n12\n00:05:35,431 --> 00:05:51,861\n我剛剛提過就是包括55plus的這樣子的一個計畫然後還有包括植物在設計甚至還有部分工時我們獎勵就是說因應這一個高齡者他的特殊工作型態我們獎勵給僱主也獎勵給工作者是我想理解這部分\n\n13\n00:05:56,404 --> 00:05:58,405\n國會104人提到一個漸進式退休的一個經驗跟做法因為時間的關係國會這邊\n\n14\n00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:45,671\n有沒有簡單回應一下,否則就之後給本席一個書面資料因為從104提到一個漸進式的退休的一個經驗跟做法可是感覺上似乎也還沒有真正在做那過去9年來就很多概念提出來也都沒有正式去推動所以我覺得很多的事情我們需要政府部門很具體的去落實下來\n\n15\n00:06:46,411 --> 00:06:46,771\n〈壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案〉案\n\n16\n00:07:09,651 --> 00:07:09,671\n﹚鄭正鈐\n\n17\n00:07:34,415 --> 00:08:02,003\n怎樣讓環境更好有一個部分是數位落差的問題數位落差因為今天那個速發部也有來齁針對還有教育部這邊也有來我覺得針對就是壯世代碰到的數位落差的問題的時候我覺得這邊如果能夠很友善的去解決的時候呢對於我們整個壯世代能夠投入職場當中或者在生活品質當中的提升都是會非常的有幫助的那我最後一個部分就問到一個10月15號的時候\n\n18\n00:08:03,323 --> 00:08:08,391\n有很多人到立法院這邊來抗議我不知道何部長知不知道這件事情金融機構的\n\n19\n00:08:10,872 --> 00:08:32,853\n民眾來抗議因為他們中高齡就業覺得被歧視、被解職我知道這個是那我們後來來東部這邊怎麼做我有跟您報告其實這個個案他基本上已經都被裁罰了因為我們的這一個中高齡就業法裡面我們就是禁止年齡歧視是理解部長裁罰多少錢\n\n20\n00:08:35,635 --> 00:08:35,655\n〔記者〕\n\n21\n00:08:52,924 --> 00:09:12,413\n所以這個部分部長你之後再給本席一個詳細的說明好不好因為如果說用這樣的方式就可以解決這個中高齡被歧視的問題我覺得這個成本太低好不好所以我在想說今天我們在講壯世代的一個草案我覺得它有它的價值在謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝謝謝鄭委員謝謝部長市長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4820\t31138\t委員好謝謝主席今天特別安排了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的一個備詢跟審議那我在想說坦白說我看了這個壯世代這個相關的一個草案他其實是在立法院裡面也很少數碰到提案的是三黨的人都連署然後連署的裡面也是三黨就是跨黨派大家一起來\n31578\t53865\t﹗\n53965\t75051\t在台灣就是少子化問題大家都已經非常的理解然後在今年其實我們又通過了再生醫療法的時候我相信台灣的人均的壽命應該會越來越長所以我覺得在這時間點的時候來審這個壯世代相關的法案我覺得是有它一定的意義的\n76111\t98008\t而且我發現說其實大部分的委員至少我到目前我聽到大家對於壯世代這個倡議都是肯定的高度的肯定包括剛剛何部長也提到這個部分那至於說我們是不是要有一個適當的法來把它變成一個我們後續去做follow的一個依法有據去做很多推動的時候\n99505\t129188\t我覺得它還是有它的價值性所在所以我想說今天針對這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這部分的時候我也有幾個問題想先就教一下何部長跟很多因為今天有10個部會都到了這是一個很難得的狀態那顯然在之前溝通的時候可能各部會對壯世代這個概念我覺得也應該是抱持肯定的態度居多那我第一個問題我想先問一下國發會我先問一下國發會因為我看到我們整個人口那個推估的部分\n131249\t142455\t國防部的人口推估其實很不準你知道嗎我們看到整個這個部分我以112年今年113年1到9月份的時候那比前一年99652也持續的\n147925\t172853\t稍等話題我用這張圖來做一個簡單的表示我們看一下105年對於110年人口推估我們有低推估中規度跟高推估連低推估都不到然後不斷的在修改修改到111年推估出來的狀態的時候還是比實際數據來的高我們低推估都這麼不準我覺得這個部分是不是可以請國發會先簡單做一個簡單的回應一下這部分\n176494\t197761\t今年我們在做整個推估的時候,其實我們用了中推估。但是本來我們的推估的方式也有做一些精進。是,因為中推估的話顯然會更不準,因為我已經用低推估的部分把它整理出來。那這沒關係,我在想說因為我們今天在審壯世代相關的法案的時候,我在想說\n199582\t224575\t我這邊的時候就直接講到因為按照國發會這邊的推估的時候到2020到2070年的時候平均每5年會少100萬個那個有生產力的勞動力的人那這個部分我先跳過去因為我想接下來問題有跟勞動部有關的事情因為我就看你們國發會的數字那顯然台灣的少子化問題會非常的嚴重那在像我剛剛提到在生醫療法通過之後\n224835\t252201\t我相信台灣的醫療水平會越來越好大家的人均壽命會越來越長所以我想說在這個部分的時候我要如何讓壯世代那壯世代這邊定義說實話他是55歲我看草案當中他是提55歲那是不是我們這個年紀定義要調整我覺得是開放的因為我也覺得55歲感覺有點年輕可是我相信就是當時在提這個法案55歲一定有他的道理在因為50歲可能是大家退休的年紀\n252981\t278400\t他希望退休年紀之後是不會直接就開始休息就造成了很多就是撫養人的一個負擔所以我這邊的時候我想問一下就是何部長因為我看到了一個情況就是我們希望鼓勵65歲以上55歲的人繼續壯世代人繼續在職場當中除了要減輕撫養壓力之外那麼縮小人口人力的一個缺口\n279121\t309121\t﹏﹏\n310622\t330369\t確實我們那個65歲以上的勞參率遠低於OECD國家,我們只有9%其他OECD國家人家都是20,10幾%左右所以這部分確實就是我們要致力於這一個部分提高的重點那我們有針對中高齡跟高齡者的這一個勞參那麼對他的這一個就業獎勵\n335431\t351861\t我剛剛提過就是包括55plus的這樣子的一個計畫然後還有包括植物在設計甚至還有部分工時我們獎勵就是說因應這一個高齡者他的特殊工作型態我們獎勵給僱主也獎勵給工作者是我想理解這部分\n356404\t358405\t國會104人提到一個漸進式退休的一個經驗跟做法因為時間的關係國會這邊\n382316\t405671\t有沒有簡單回應一下,否則就之後給本席一個書面資料因為從104提到一個漸進式的退休的一個經驗跟做法可是感覺上似乎也還沒有真正在做那過去9年來就很多概念提出來也都沒有正式去推動所以我覺得很多的事情我們需要政府部門很具體的去落實下來\n406411\t406771\t〈壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案〉案\n429651\t429671\t﹚鄭正鈐\n454415\t482003\t怎樣讓環境更好 有一個部分是數位落差的問題數位落差 因為今天那個速發部也有來齁 針對還有教育部這邊也有來 我覺得針對就是壯世代碰到的數位落差的問題的時候 我覺得這邊如果能夠很友善的去解決的時候呢對於我們整個壯世代能夠投入職場當中 或者在生活品質當中的提升都是會非常的有幫助的 那我最後一個部分就問到一個10月15號的時候\n483323\t488391\t有很多人到立法院這邊來抗議我不知道何部長知不知道這件事情金融機構的\n490872\t512853\t民眾來抗議因為他們中高齡就業覺得被歧視、被解職我知道這個是那我們後來來東部這邊怎麼做我有跟您報告其實這個個案他基本上已經都被裁罰了因為我們的這一個中高齡就業法裡面我們就是禁止年齡歧視是理解部長裁罰多少錢\n515635\t515655\t〔記者〕\n532924\t552413\t所以這個部分部長你之後再給本席一個詳細的說明好不好因為如果說用這樣的方式就可以解決這個中高齡被歧視的問題我覺得這個成本太低好不好所以我在想說今天我們在講壯世代的一個草案我覺得它有它的價值在謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝謝謝鄭委員謝謝部長市長\n","txt":"委員好謝謝主席今天特別安排了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的一個備詢跟審議那我在想說坦白說我看了這個壯世代這個相關的一個草案他其實是在立法院裡面也很少數碰到提案的是三黨的人都連署然後連署的裡面也是三黨就是跨黨派大家一起來\n﹗\n在台灣就是少子化問題大家都已經非常的理解然後在今年其實我們又通過了再生醫療法的時候我相信台灣的人均的壽命應該會越來越長所以我覺得在這時間點的時候來審這個壯世代相關的法案我覺得是有它一定的意義的\n而且我發現說其實大部分的委員至少我到目前我聽到大家對於壯世代這個倡議都是肯定的高度的肯定包括剛剛何部長也提到這個部分那至於說我們是不是要有一個適當的法來把它變成一個我們後續去做follow的一個依法有據去做很多推動的時候\n我覺得它還是有它的價值性所在所以我想說今天針對這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這部分的時候我也有幾個問題想先就教一下何部長跟很多因為今天有10個部會都到了這是一個很難得的狀態那顯然在之前溝通的時候可能各部會對壯世代這個概念我覺得也應該是抱持肯定的態度居多那我第一個問題我想先問一下國發會我先問一下國發會因為我看到我們整個人口那個推估的部分\n國防部的人口推估其實很不準你知道嗎我們看到整個這個部分我以112年今年113年1到9月份的時候那比前一年99652也持續的\n稍等話題我用這張圖來做一個簡單的表示我們看一下105年對於110年人口推估我們有低推估中規度跟高推估連低推估都不到然後不斷的在修改修改到111年推估出來的狀態的時候還是比實際數據來的高我們低推估都這麼不準我覺得這個部分是不是可以請國發會先簡單做一個簡單的回應一下這部分\n今年我們在做整個推估的時候,其實我們用了中推估。但是本來我們的推估的方式也有做一些精進。是,因為中推估的話顯然會更不準,因為我已經用低推估的部分把它整理出來。那這沒關係,我在想說因為我們今天在審壯世代相關的法案的時候,我在想說\n我這邊的時候就直接講到因為按照國發會這邊的推估的時候到2020到2070年的時候平均每5年會少100萬個那個有生產力的勞動力的人那這個部分我先跳過去因為我想接下來問題有跟勞動部有關的事情因為我就看你們國發會的數字那顯然台灣的少子化問題會非常的嚴重那在像我剛剛提到在生醫療法通過之後\n我相信台灣的醫療水平會越來越好大家的人均壽命會越來越長所以我想說在這個部分的時候我要如何讓壯世代那壯世代這邊定義說實話他是55歲我看草案當中他是提55歲那是不是我們這個年紀定義要調整我覺得是開放的因為我也覺得55歲感覺有點年輕可是我相信就是當時在提這個法案55歲一定有他的道理在因為50歲可能是大家退休的年紀\n他希望退休年紀之後是不會直接就開始休息就造成了很多就是撫養人的一個負擔所以我這邊的時候我想問一下就是何部長因為我看到了一個情況就是我們希望鼓勵65歲以上55歲的人繼續壯世代人繼續在職場當中除了要減輕撫養壓力之外那麼縮小人口人力的一個缺口\n﹏﹏\n確實我們那個65歲以上的勞參率遠低於OECD國家,我們只有9%其他OECD國家人家都是20,10幾%左右所以這部分確實就是我們要致力於這一個部分提高的重點那我們有針對中高齡跟高齡者的這一個勞參那麼對他的這一個就業獎勵\n我剛剛提過就是包括55plus的這樣子的一個計畫然後還有包括植物在設計甚至還有部分工時我們獎勵就是說因應這一個高齡者他的特殊工作型態我們獎勵給僱主也獎勵給工作者是我想理解這部分\n國會104人提到一個漸進式退休的一個經驗跟做法因為時間的關係國會這邊\n有沒有簡單回應一下,否則就之後給本席一個書面資料因為從104提到一個漸進式的退休的一個經驗跟做法可是感覺上似乎也還沒有真正在做那過去9年來就很多概念提出來也都沒有正式去推動所以我覺得很多的事情我們需要政府部門很具體的去落實下來\n〈壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案〉案\n﹚鄭正鈐\n怎樣讓環境更好 有一個部分是數位落差的問題數位落差 因為今天那個速發部也有來齁 針對還有教育部這邊也有來 我覺得針對就是壯世代碰到的數位落差的問題的時候 我覺得這邊如果能夠很友善的去解決的時候呢對於我們整個壯世代能夠投入職場當中 或者在生活品質當中的提升都是會非常的有幫助的 那我最後一個部分就問到一個10月15號的時候\n有很多人到立法院這邊來抗議我不知道何部長知不知道這件事情金融機構的\n民眾來抗議因為他們中高齡就業覺得被歧視、被解職我知道這個是那我們後來來東部這邊怎麼做我有跟您報告其實這個個案他基本上已經都被裁罰了因為我們的這一個中高齡就業法裡面我們就是禁止年齡歧視是理解部長裁罰多少錢\n〔記者〕\n所以這個部分部長你之後再給本席一個詳細的說明好不好因為如果說用這樣的方式就可以解決這個中高齡被歧視的問題我覺得這個成本太低好不好所以我在想說今天我們在講壯世代的一個草案我覺得它有它的價值在謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝謝謝鄭委員謝謝部長市長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.820 --> 00:31.138\n委員好謝謝主席今天特別安排了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的一個備詢跟審議那我在想說坦白說我看了這個壯世代這個相關的一個草案他其實是在立法院裡面也很少數碰到提案的是三黨的人都連署然後連署的裡面也是三黨就是跨黨派大家一起來\n\n00:53.965 --> 01:15.051\n在台灣就是少子化問題大家都已經非常的理解然後在今年其實我們又通過了再生醫療法的時候我相信台灣的人均的壽命應該會越來越長所以我覺得在這時間點的時候來審這個壯世代相關的法案我覺得是有它一定的意義的\n\n01:16.111 --> 01:38.008\n而且我發現說其實大部分的委員至少我到目前我聽到大家對於壯世代這個倡議都是肯定的高度的肯定包括剛剛何部長也提到這個部分那至於說我們是不是要有一個適當的法來把它變成一個我們後續去做follow的一個依法有據去做很多推動的時候\n\n01:39.505 --> 02:09.188\n我覺得它還是有它的價值性所在所以我想說今天針對這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這部分的時候我也有幾個問題想先就教一下何部長跟很多因為今天有10個部會都到了這是一個很難得的狀態那顯然在之前溝通的時候可能各部會對壯世代這個概念我覺得也應該是抱持肯定的態度居多那我第一個問題我想先問一下國發會我先問一下國發會因為我看到我們整個人口那個推估的部分\n\n02:11.249 --> 02:22.455\n國防部的人口推估其實很不準你知道嗎我們看到整個這個部分我以112年今年113年1到9月份的時候那比前一年99652也持續的\n\n02:27.925 --> 02:52.853\n稍等話題我用這張圖來做一個簡單的表示我們看一下105年對於110年人口推估我們有低推估中規度跟高推估連低推估都不到然後不斷的在修改修改到111年推估出來的狀態的時候還是比實際數據來的高我們低推估都這麼不準我覺得這個部分是不是可以請國發會先簡單做一個簡單的回應一下這部分\n\n02:56.494 --> 03:17.761\n今年我們在做整個推估的時候,其實我們用了中推估。但是本來我們的推估的方式也有做一些精進。是,因為中推估的話顯然會更不準,因為我已經用低推估的部分把它整理出來。那這沒關係,我在想說因為我們今天在審壯世代相關的法案的時候,我在想說\n\n03:19.582 --> 03:44.575\n我這邊的時候就直接講到因為按照國發會這邊的推估的時候到2020到2070年的時候平均每5年會少100萬個那個有生產力的勞動力的人那這個部分我先跳過去因為我想接下來問題有跟勞動部有關的事情因為我就看你們國發會的數字那顯然台灣的少子化問題會非常的嚴重那在像我剛剛提到在生醫療法通過之後\n\n03:44.835 --> 04:12.201\n我相信台灣的醫療水平會越來越好大家的人均壽命會越來越長所以我想說在這個部分的時候我要如何讓壯世代那壯世代這邊定義說實話他是55歲我看草案當中他是提55歲那是不是我們這個年紀定義要調整我覺得是開放的因為我也覺得55歲感覺有點年輕可是我相信就是當時在提這個法案55歲一定有他的道理在因為50歲可能是大家退休的年紀\n\n04:12.981 --> 04:38.400\n他希望退休年紀之後是不會直接就開始休息就造成了很多就是撫養人的一個負擔所以我這邊的時候我想問一下就是何部長因為我看到了一個情況就是我們希望鼓勵65歲以上55歲的人繼續壯世代人繼續在職場當中除了要減輕撫養壓力之外那麼縮小人口人力的一個缺口\n\n05:10.622 --> 05:30.369\n確實我們那個65歲以上的勞參率遠低於OECD國家,我們只有9%其他OECD國家人家都是20,10幾%左右所以這部分確實就是我們要致力於這一個部分提高的重點那我們有針對中高齡跟高齡者的這一個勞參那麼對他的這一個就業獎勵\n\n05:35.431 --> 05:51.861\n我剛剛提過就是包括55plus的這樣子的一個計畫然後還有包括植物在設計甚至還有部分工時我們獎勵就是說因應這一個高齡者他的特殊工作型態我們獎勵給僱主也獎勵給工作者是我想理解這部分\n\n05:56.404 --> 05:58.405\n國會104人提到一個漸進式退休的一個經驗跟做法因為時間的關係國會這邊\n\n06:22.316 --> 06:45.671\n有沒有簡單回應一下,否則就之後給本席一個書面資料因為從104提到一個漸進式的退休的一個經驗跟做法可是感覺上似乎也還沒有真正在做那過去9年來就很多概念提出來也都沒有正式去推動所以我覺得很多的事情我們需要政府部門很具體的去落實下來\n\n06:46.411 --> 06:46.771\n〈壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案〉案\n\n07:09.651 --> 07:09.671\n﹚鄭正鈐\n\n07:34.415 --> 08:02.003\n怎樣讓環境更好有一個部分是數位落差的問題數位落差因為今天那個速發部也有來齁針對還有教育部這邊也有來我覺得針對就是壯世代碰到的數位落差的問題的時候我覺得這邊如果能夠很友善的去解決的時候呢對於我們整個壯世代能夠投入職場當中或者在生活品質當中的提升都是會非常的有幫助的那我最後一個部分就問到一個10月15號的時候\n\n08:03.323 --> 08:08.391\n有很多人到立法院這邊來抗議我不知道何部長知不知道這件事情金融機構的\n\n08:10.872 --> 08:32.853\n民眾來抗議因為他們中高齡就業覺得被歧視、被解職我知道這個是那我們後來來東部這邊怎麼做我有跟您報告其實這個個案他基本上已經都被裁罰了因為我們的這一個中高齡就業法裡面我們就是禁止年齡歧視是理解部長裁罰多少錢\n\n08:35.635 --> 08:35.655\n〔記者〕\n\n08:52.924 --> 09:12.413\n所以這個部分部長你之後再給本席一個詳細的說明好不好因為如果說用這樣的方式就可以解決這個中高齡被歧視的問題我覺得這個成本太低好不好所以我在想說今天我們在講壯世代的一個草案我覺得它有它的價值在謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝謝謝鄭委員謝謝部長市長\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.82,"end":31.138,"text":"委員好謝謝主席今天特別安排了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的一個備詢跟審議那我在想說坦白說我看了這個壯世代這個相關的一個草案他其實是在立法院裡面也很少數碰到提案的是三黨的人都連署然後連署的裡面也是三黨就是跨黨派大家一起來"},{"start":31.578,"end":53.865,"text":"﹗"},{"start":53.965,"end":75.051,"text":"在台灣就是少子化問題大家都已經非常的理解然後在今年其實我們又通過了再生醫療法的時候我相信台灣的人均的壽命應該會越來越長所以我覺得在這時間點的時候來審這個壯世代相關的法案我覺得是有它一定的意義的"},{"start":76.111,"end":98.008,"text":"而且我發現說其實大部分的委員至少我到目前我聽到大家對於壯世代這個倡議都是肯定的高度的肯定包括剛剛何部長也提到這個部分那至於說我們是不是要有一個適當的法來把它變成一個我們後續去做follow的一個依法有據去做很多推動的時候"},{"start":99.505,"end":129.188,"text":"我覺得它還是有它的價值性所在所以我想說今天針對這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這部分的時候我也有幾個問題想先就教一下何部長跟很多因為今天有10個部會都到了這是一個很難得的狀態那顯然在之前溝通的時候可能各部會對壯世代這個概念我覺得也應該是抱持肯定的態度居多那我第一個問題我想先問一下國發會我先問一下國發會因為我看到我們整個人口那個推估的部分"},{"start":131.249,"end":142.455,"text":"國防部的人口推估其實很不準你知道嗎我們看到整個這個部分我以112年今年113年1到9月份的時候那比前一年99652也持續的"},{"start":147.925,"end":172.853,"text":"稍等話題我用這張圖來做一個簡單的表示我們看一下105年對於110年人口推估我們有低推估中規度跟高推估連低推估都不到然後不斷的在修改修改到111年推估出來的狀態的時候還是比實際數據來的高我們低推估都這麼不準我覺得這個部分是不是可以請國發會先簡單做一個簡單的回應一下這部分"},{"start":176.494,"end":197.761,"text":"今年我們在做整個推估的時候,其實我們用了中推估。但是本來我們的推估的方式也有做一些精進。是,因為中推估的話顯然會更不準,因為我已經用低推估的部分把它整理出來。那這沒關係,我在想說因為我們今天在審壯世代相關的法案的時候,我在想說"},{"start":199.582,"end":224.575,"text":"我這邊的時候就直接講到因為按照國發會這邊的推估的時候到2020到2070年的時候平均每5年會少100萬個那個有生產力的勞動力的人那這個部分我先跳過去因為我想接下來問題有跟勞動部有關的事情因為我就看你們國發會的數字那顯然台灣的少子化問題會非常的嚴重那在像我剛剛提到在生醫療法通過之後"},{"start":224.835,"end":252.201,"text":"我相信台灣的醫療水平會越來越好大家的人均壽命會越來越長所以我想說在這個部分的時候我要如何讓壯世代那壯世代這邊定義說實話他是55歲我看草案當中他是提55歲那是不是我們這個年紀定義要調整我覺得是開放的因為我也覺得55歲感覺有點年輕可是我相信就是當時在提這個法案55歲一定有他的道理在因為50歲可能是大家退休的年紀"},{"start":252.981,"end":278.4,"text":"他希望退休年紀之後是不會直接就開始休息就造成了很多就是撫養人的一個負擔所以我這邊的時候我想問一下就是何部長因為我看到了一個情況就是我們希望鼓勵65歲以上55歲的人繼續壯世代人繼續在職場當中除了要減輕撫養壓力之外那麼縮小人口人力的一個缺口"},{"start":279.121,"end":309.121,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":310.622,"end":330.369,"text":"確實我們那個65歲以上的勞參率遠低於OECD國家,我們只有9%其他OECD國家人家都是20,10幾%左右所以這部分確實就是我們要致力於這一個部分提高的重點那我們有針對中高齡跟高齡者的這一個勞參那麼對他的這一個就業獎勵"},{"start":335.431,"end":351.861,"text":"我剛剛提過就是包括55plus的這樣子的一個計畫然後還有包括植物在設計甚至還有部分工時我們獎勵就是說因應這一個高齡者他的特殊工作型態我們獎勵給僱主也獎勵給工作者是我想理解這部分"},{"start":356.404,"end":358.405,"text":"國會104人提到一個漸進式退休的一個經驗跟做法因為時間的關係國會這邊"},{"start":382.316,"end":405.671,"text":"有沒有簡單回應一下,否則就之後給本席一個書面資料因為從104提到一個漸進式的退休的一個經驗跟做法可是感覺上似乎也還沒有真正在做那過去9年來就很多概念提出來也都沒有正式去推動所以我覺得很多的事情我們需要政府部門很具體的去落實下來"},{"start":406.411,"end":406.771,"text":"〈壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案〉案"},{"start":429.651,"end":429.671,"text":"﹚鄭正鈐"},{"start":454.415,"end":482.003,"text":"怎樣讓環境更好 有一個部分是數位落差的問題數位落差 因為今天那個速發部也有來齁 針對還有教育部這邊也有來 我覺得針對就是壯世代碰到的數位落差的問題的時候 我覺得這邊如果能夠很友善的去解決的時候呢對於我們整個壯世代能夠投入職場當中 或者在生活品質當中的提升都是會非常的有幫助的 那我最後一個部分就問到一個10月15號的時候"},{"start":483.323,"end":488.391,"text":"有很多人到立法院這邊來抗議我不知道何部長知不知道這件事情金融機構的"},{"start":490.872,"end":512.853,"text":"民眾來抗議因為他們中高齡就業覺得被歧視、被解職我知道這個是那我們後來來東部這邊怎麼做我有跟您報告其實這個個案他基本上已經都被裁罰了因為我們的這一個中高齡就業法裡面我們就是禁止年齡歧視是理解部長裁罰多少錢"},{"start":515.635,"end":515.655,"text":"〔記者〕"},{"start":532.924,"end":552.413,"text":"所以這個部分部長你之後再給本席一個詳細的說明好不好因為如果說用這樣的方式就可以解決這個中高齡被歧視的問題我覺得這個成本太低好不好所以我在想說今天我們在講壯世代的一個草案我覺得它有它的價值在謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝謝謝鄭委員謝謝部長市長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時13分）主席好，我想先請一下勞動部何部長，還有國發會的彭副主委。"],["主席：好，何部長、彭副主委。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝主席今天特別安排了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的備詢跟審議，坦白說，我看了這個壯世代相關的草案，它其實是在立法院裡面很少數碰到提案是三黨的人都連署，然後連署人也是三黨跨黨派大家一起來支持的相關法案。剛剛有人提到主審的部會應該是在衛環還是在經濟委員會，我在想說跟壯世代有關的部分，就我的理解當中，它一定跟整個人口的問題有關，在臺灣，少子化問題大家都已經非常地理解，在今年我們又通過再生醫療法，我相信臺灣的人均壽命應該會越來越長，所以在這個時間點來審壯世代相關的法案，我覺得是有它一定的意義，而且我發現其實大部分的委員，至少到目前為止我聽到大家對於壯世代這個倡議都是肯定的，高度的肯定，包括剛剛何部長也提到這個部分。至於我們是不是要有一個適當的法，作為我們後續去follow，並依法有據去推動，我覺得它還是有它的價值性所在。","所以今天針對壯世代政策與產業發展促進法，我也有幾個問題想先就教一下何部長跟很多……因為今天有10個部會都到了，這是一個很難得的狀態，顯然在之前溝通的時候，可能各部會對於壯世代這個概念，我覺得應該也是抱持肯定的態度居多。第一個問題我想先問一下國發會，因為我看到我們整個人口推估的部分，國發會的人口推估其實很不準，你知道嗎？我們看到這個部分，我以112年，今年113年1到9月份，對比前一年9萬9,652人，也持續地下降，就少子化的問題，我用這張圖來做一個簡單的表示。我們看一下105年對112年人口推估，有低推估、中推估跟高推估，連低推估都不到，不斷地在修改，修改到111年，推估出來的狀態還是比實際數據來得高，我們連低推估都這麼不準，這個部分是不是可以請國發會先簡單做個回應一下？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：跟委員報告，我們今年在做整個推估的時候，其實我們用了中推估，本來我們的推估方式也有做一些精進，所以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，因為中推估的話顯然會更不準，因為我已經用低推估的部分把它整理出來，沒關係，因為我們今天在審壯世代相關法案，我這邊就直接講到，因為按照國發會這邊的推估，2020到2070年，平均每5年會少100萬個有生產力的勞動力的人，這個部分我先跳過去，因為我接下來想問的也跟勞動部有關。我在看你們國發會的數字，顯然臺灣的少子化問題會非常地嚴重，加上我剛剛提到，再生醫療法通過之後，我相信臺灣的醫療水平會越來越好，大家的人均壽命會越來越長。","所以在這個部分要如何讓壯世代……壯世代的定義是55歲，我看草案當中是提55歲，是不是年紀定義要調整，我覺得是開放的，因為我也覺得55歲感覺有點年輕，可是我相信當時在提這個法案時，55歲一定有道理在，因為55歲可能是大家退休的年紀，大家希望退休年紀之後不要直接就開始休息，造成撫養人的負擔。","所以我想問一下何部長，因為我看到一個情況，就是我們希望鼓勵65歲以上、55歲的人，壯世代繼續在職場當中，除了減輕撫養壓力之外，以及縮小人力的缺口，也希望能夠提升壯世代的品質。我想問在這個壯世代的草案當中為什麼會橫跨13個部會？今天來了10個部會，我覺得是有它的道理在。我這邊要問的是，因為我看到我們65歲以上勞動參與率的部分遠遠低於其他國家，這個部分，部長這邊是不是有很具體的作法？我知道你們這邊有提到一些中高齡就業的發展機制，針對這部分，你們有沒有什麼想法？部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，確實我們65歲以上的勞參率遠低於OECD國家，我們是9%，其他OECD國家都是百分之十幾、二十左右，所以這部分確實就是我們要致力於提高的重點。針對中高齡跟高齡者的勞參，對於他的就業獎勵，我剛剛提過，就是包括55Plus這樣的計畫，還有包括職務再設計，甚至還有部分工時，我們的獎勵就是因應高齡者的特殊工作型態，我們獎勵給雇主，也獎勵給工作者。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，部長，我理解這部分。我這邊要提到一個點，事實上我們對中高齡就業的鼓勵跟獎勵也不是剛開始做，其實也做了很長一段時間，可是成績還是沒有很好，這邊我提到幾個點，是跟這次所提壯世代草案當中有點相關的部分，就是有關於國發會104年提到一個漸進式退休的經驗跟作法，因為時間的關係，國發會這邊有沒有簡單回應一下？否則就之後給本席一個書面資料。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：好，我們之後再給委員書面資料。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為從104年就提到一個漸進式退休的經驗跟作法，可是感覺上似乎也還沒有真正在做，過去9年來很多概念提出來，也都沒有正式去推動，所以我覺得很多的事情，我們需要政府部門很具體地去落實下來。壯世代這邊，剛剛何部長特別提到，它有一個很大的價值就是反年齡歧視的問題，我覺得這一點其實本席也非常的支持啦！可是我看到我們要怎麼樣去建立一個中高齡友善的環境，或壯世代一個友善的環境，其實是有困難的。我看到了整個中高齡重返職場當中的困難度調查，只有7.6%他覺得有信心，有92%的人覺得有困難，這個部分，我想何部長這邊也推動很多中高齡就業的計畫，你到時候再給本席一個很詳細的書面資料，看我們到底怎麼做，做到怎麼樣子的一個情況。","我這邊另外要提一個概念，就是我覺得怎麼樣讓壯世代的環境更好，有一個部分是數位落差的問題，因為今天數發部也有來，還有教育部也有來，我覺得針對壯世代碰到數位落差問題的時候，如果能夠很友善的去解決，對於我們整個壯世代能夠投入職場當中，或者在生活品質當中的提升，都是會非常的有幫助的。","我最後一個部分就問到10月15日的時候，有很多人到立法院這邊來抗議，我不知道何部長知不知道這件事情，金融機構的民眾來抗議，因為他們中高齡就業覺得被歧視、被解職。"],["何部長佩珊：我知道這個事。"],["鄭委員正鈐：後來勞動部這邊怎麼做？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您報告，其實這個個案，它基本上已經都被裁罰了，因為我們的中高齡就業法裡面，就是禁止年齡歧視。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，理解，部長，裁罰多少錢？"],["何部長佩珊：它要被罰30萬元到150萬元。"],["鄭委員正鈐：裁罰多少錢？你們具體裁罰它多少錢？"],["何部長佩珊：各30萬元。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以裁罰總共多少？"],["何部長佩珊：60萬元。"],["鄭委員正鈐：才60萬嘛！對不對？它如果十幾個人就把他給解僱掉的時候，這60萬它很值得啊！你知道嗎？所以這個部分，部長，你之後再給本席一個詳細的說明好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為如果用這樣子的方式就可以解決中高齡被歧視的問題，我覺得這個成本太低，好不好？所以我在想今天我們在講壯世代的一個草案，我覺得它有它的價值在，謝謝主席，謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝鄭委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接續請廖偉翔委員質詢。","我們在陳菁徽委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘，還有中午不休息，趕快詢答完畢再散會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}}