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\"個\"}, {\"word\": \"模\", \"start\": 658.909, \"end\": 658.929, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 658.929, \"end\": 658.989, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 658.989, \"end\": 659.069, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 659.069, \"end\": 659.189, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 659.189, \"end\": 659.229, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 659.229, \"end\": 659.389, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 659.389, \"end\": 660.009, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 660.009, \"end\": 660.109, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 660.109, \"end\": 660.129, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 674.702, \"end\": 675.222, \"text\": \"民雄航太園區當初在地方有開說明會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 674.702, \"end\": 674.782, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"雄\", \"start\": 674.782, \"end\": 674.802, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": 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00:01:23,428\n那這個在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面有把海豐部隊也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型的這個部隊的一些情資其實在公有的領域上面就看到我們民眾對就是我剛所講的這個對像這個部分不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的這個訊息我有看到相關的報導那我想我們現在要重要的當然就是做一個\n\n4\n00:01:25,509 --> 00:01:49,376\n一個應該是說一個汛機管理的一個重要性這個重要性要讓所有的部隊的長官還有所有的官兵都能夠了解這個汛機管理的東西就是說你在整個過程當中你必須要氣力偽裝隱匿還有對你無線電的信號要做管制等等\n\n5\n00:01:50,436 --> 00:02:11,035\n不斷地去變段你的戰術位置這個是非常重要的那因為像這樣子他的一個報導好像意思就是說我如果理解沒有他會說瞬間我們就會整個會被摧毀我記得我看到的是這樣但是我想我們真正的這個在進行的時候呢\n\n6\n00:02:11,465 --> 00:02:39,838\n我們會有不同的戰術為止不會是固定的那最重要最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的整個汛機的管理對戰力整個保存是非常非常重要還有然後在第一時間不會被摧毀然後甚至能夠保存下來那然後來進而進行反制那這樣子的一個汛機管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的一個一個演練的項目之一這樣\n\n7\n00:02:40,632 --> 00:02:54,911\n所以你覺得在這個他所投稿的文章裡面,他提出來的確實是一個可以我們改進的一個方向嗎?對,因為信息管理現在是一個重要,我剛剛提到的是一個重要的一個演練的科目。\n\n8\n00:02:56,072 --> 00:03:24,537\n另外一個部分就是說在這個不管是海豐部隊在進行在部署的時候有大量的這一個一般民眾或許是媒體這樣子拍照然後把這樣子的訊息那透過公開來分享這些公開的請知這變成公開的請知了嘛這會不會影響到我們的情報安全我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以來去做不管是在法律層級上面或者是有什麼我們能夠做的\n\n9\n00:03:25,734 --> 00:03:54,564\n其實跟委員報告這個其實是變成是一個我們如果講說叫反沾那如果我們被反沾出來其實這是不對的那我們如何讓他做好更淒敵的部分我比如說舉我不想就是說我們讓人家看不出來這是這是那個軍用那個軍用的裝備這件事情應該要來更加強所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點\n\n10\n00:03:55,044 --> 00:04:11,297\n主要看到這幾個剛才提到的看起來都被我們的各媒體都有掌握到所以說可能我們自己也要來思考一下剛才部長你提到的偽裝的部分必須假設就是這些\n\n11\n00:04:12,864 --> 00:04:13,144\n請國防部長報告\n\n12\n00:04:31,076 --> 00:04:44,726\n委員好我是海軍參謀長那回應您的問題有關其實我們整個機動部隊的一個位置的選刊它有一般的我們的一個實際上的戰術位置以及平常的一個機動路線\n\n13\n00:04:46,147 --> 00:04:47,207\n反情報有可能是以真是假\n\n14\n00:05:08,132 --> 00:05:08,953\n這篇文章提供12個海豐部隊的\n\n15\n00:05:26,745 --> 00:05:49,790\n主張基地的確切坐標那其實這個我們假設北京知道因為只要是駐紮地我們知道但是如果是機動部隊那被設計出來就是不希望被知道那所以怎麼樣反情報還有人因吶我必須還是強調人因就是包含昨天我們在質詢的時候有提到說安全層級的這個設防就是說有的時候我們想要反情報那我們可能派駐可是如果我們的\n\n16\n00:05:50,330 --> 00:05:50,510\n陳冠廷\n\n17\n00:06:11,764 --> 00:06:35,315\n武器裝備是使用的人還有指揮的人還有他怎麼用的情報所以這個這兩天的包含安全層級我一直在跟部長在強調這Clearance的部分就是說這個他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關有些時候甚至是負相關的時候那我們變成我們安全揭密的這個層級是要因應他的揭密層級\n\n18\n00:06:36,115 --> 00:06:36,135\n謝謝,好謝謝\n\n19\n00:07:01,297 --> 00:07:17,669\n部長目前我們今天談到的國軍我們所有的擁有的無人載具那當然大家都會說數量足不足以面對中國的威脅但其實不僅僅是數量因為現在國防部他籌貨的近千架的無人機那2027年會籌貨到3000架以上的這個軍規上用的無人機\n\n20\n00:07:22,132 --> 00:07:37,174\n但是烏克蘭每個月消耗是一萬架次的無人機但不管是他消耗的是哪一種無人機型有可能是堅稱的大型無人機或者是小型的這種他其實很難放在同一個量級去做平等\n\n21\n00:07:38,476 --> 00:08:01,722\n什麼叫夠什麼叫不夠是一回事我們有沒有足夠的產量產能在當我們消耗完這些無人機的時候能夠再進行生產來去做補充這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分我們現在應該是說我們要運用我們的作戰需求那甚至有些高低配就是說有一些剛剛提到的大量大量的話成本一定要\n\n22\n00:08:02,902 --> 00:08:26,869\n要能夠降低那有一些是屬於比較精準的那就可能會價格會高一點那這個會高低配那這個根據作戰需求的話我剛剛已經提到了還是要尋找這個他在跟他萬一要進犯的時候他的最脆弱點的所在那我們最有效的這個無人機的攻擊對他是什麼那我們是首次作戰所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊從首次作戰\n\n23\n00:08:28,889 --> 00:08:47,515\n找他的脆弱點來講相對於他來講他的無人機要過來特別是當然他大型的無人機當然是可以過來但是他如果他的小型無人機沒有辦法回那麼遠的話那相對來講我們的小型無人機應對他的這個登島作戰的在這個不管近\n\n24\n00:08:48,254 --> 00:08:49,234\n再跟委員做一個報告\n\n25\n00:09:13,424 --> 00:09:21,990\n自主的產能確實是重要的因為這也是我們從烏克蘭經驗裡面要提到是非常非常重要的\n\n26\n00:09:22,284 --> 00:09:49,145\n而且另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是說剛剛你提到小型無人機那小型無人機的航程有限等於說中國不可能源源不絕的來在作戰的場域裡面使用這些小型無人機而我們是在我們自己的我們自己的這個祖國我們自己的台灣的本島上面或者是在離島上面所以我們反而有足夠的儲備力量甚至是生產能量來去把這些小型無人機補足那他們還必須要一批一批的運送過來那這是一個我們\n\n27\n00:09:49,986 --> 00:09:50,126\n委員會主席\n\n28\n00:10:05,131 --> 00:10:27,442\n那不管是海上的載具跟海下的載具那我們在民雄航太園區它是中科院的我們的一個旗艦型的計畫那當然我們看到很多包含這個分享的一些你說AI的建置等等一些實驗室的分享等等場區的有沒有針對這個海面上海面下的這一些無人載具也能夠使用的\n\n29\n00:10:29,166 --> 00:10:51,244\n因為那個地理限制的關係所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面反而是沒有海面的所以說他沒有辦法說在模擬simulation如果是模擬的部分我們是可以協助的也是可以協助的也就是說未來進駐的航太園區的除了是在你說路面上或者是\n\n30\n00:10:52,085 --> 00:11:00,129\n因為模擬算力它最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計所以這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的\n\n31\n00:11:14,702 --> 00:11:15,222\n民雄航太園區當初在地方有開說明會\n\n32\n00:11:34,298 --> 00:11:55,214\n那這個說明會的時候其實有包含村長還有一些村落的一些比較年長的這些長輩有提到說二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄也就是在民雄航太援軍復訓有進行轟炸所以他們提供相關的防空設施還有這個抗炸能力掩體\n\n33\n00:11:56,115 --> 00:12:08,747\n有沒有相關規劃因為根據我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看到還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們的中科院及產業園區內所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量\n\n34\n00:12:10,431 --> 00:12:25,529\n跟委員報告就是目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃而是把它列入國軍的整體防空的部分但是未來隨著明年PCM我們整個園區的細部規劃出來之後我們勢必也會針對中間的重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃\n\n35\n00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:54,427\n我不但在跟民眾講說民雄航太園區它不僅只是軍用它對於地方上面產業的這個促進因為會有大量的工程人員或者是商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司創新公司它不見得是百分之百軍用的那商用的也是很大的部分可是他們會有提出這樣的擔憂點所以他們甚至說不是在航太園區而是在鄰近的周遭的四個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難甚至是\n\n36\n00:12:55,751 --> 00:12:55,911\n謝謝再次感謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t23464\t國防部部長請顧部長是陳偉部長好部長有沒有看到一個最新在Foreign Policy外交政策上面投稿的文章由臺灣民意基金會研究員黃寶榮破晃的這一篇文章有沒有得到相關的這個訊息\n26643\t30105\t這篇文章裡面有提到北京南德信息技術有限公司聲稱在國防安全領域提供諮詢\n55031\t83428\t那這個在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面有把海豐部隊也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型的這個部隊的一些情資其實在公有的領域上面就看到我們民眾對就是我剛所講的這個對像這個部分不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的這個訊息我有看到相關的報導那我想我們現在要重要的當然就是做一個\n85509\t109376\t一個應該是說一個汛機管理的一個重要性這個重要性要讓所有的部隊的長官還有所有的官兵都能夠了解這個汛機管理的東西就是說你在整個過程當中你必須要氣力偽裝隱匿還有對你無線電的信號要做管制等等\n110436\t131035\t不斷地去變段你的戰術位置這個是非常重要的那因為像這樣子他的一個報導好像意思就是說我如果理解沒有他會說瞬間我們就會整個會被摧毀我記得我看到的是這樣但是我想我們真正的這個在進行的時候呢\n131465\t159838\t我們會有不同的戰術為止不會是固定的那最重要最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的整個汛機的管理對戰力整個保存是非常非常重要還有然後在第一時間不會被摧毀然後甚至能夠保存下來那然後來進而進行反制那這樣子的一個汛機管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的一個一個演練的項目之一這樣\n160632\t174911\t所以你覺得在這個他所投稿的文章裡面,他提出來的確實是一個可以我們改進的一個方向嗎?對,因為信息管理現在是一個重要,我剛剛提到的是一個重要的一個演練的科目。\n176072\t204537\t另外一個部分就是說在這個不管是海豐部隊在進行在部署的時候有大量的這一個一般民眾或許是媒體這樣子拍照然後把這樣子的訊息那透過公開來分享這些公開的請知這變成公開的請知了嘛這會不會影響到我們的情報安全我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以來去做不管是在法律層級上面或者是有什麼我們能夠做的\n205734\t234564\t其實跟委員報告這個其實是變成是一個我們如果講說叫反沾那如果我們被反沾出來其實這是不對的那我們如何讓他做好更淒敵的部分我比如說舉我不想就是說我們讓人家看不出來這是這是那個軍用那個軍用的裝備這件事情應該要來更加強所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點\n235044\t251297\t主要看到這幾個剛才提到的看起來都被我們的各媒體都有掌握到所以說可能我們自己也要來思考一下剛才部長你提到的偽裝的部分必須假設就是這些\n252864\t253144\t請國防部長報告\n271076\t284726\t委員好 我是海軍參謀長那回應您的問題有關其實我們整個機動部隊的一個位置的選刊它有一般的我們的一個實際上的戰術位置以及平常的一個機動路線\n286147\t287207\t反情報有可能是以真是假\n308132\t308953\t這篇文章提供12個海豐部隊的\n326745\t349790\t主張基地的確切坐標那其實這個我們假設北京知道因為只要是駐紮地我們知道但是如果是機動部隊那被設計出來就是不希望被知道那所以怎麼樣反情報還有人因吶我必須還是強調人因就是包含昨天我們在質詢的時候有提到說安全層級的這個設防就是說有的時候我們想要反情報那我們可能派駐可是如果我們的\n350330\t350510\t陳冠廷\n371764\t395315\t武器裝備是使用的人還有指揮的人還有他怎麼用的情報所以這個這兩天的包含安全層級我一直在跟部長在強調這Clearance的部分就是說這個他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關有些時候甚至是負相關的時候那我們變成我們安全揭密的這個層級是要因應他的揭密層級\n396115\t396135\t謝謝,好謝謝\n421297\t437669\t部長目前我們今天談到的國軍我們所有的擁有的無人載具那當然大家都會說數量足不足以面對中國的威脅但其實不僅僅是數量因為現在國防部他籌貨的近千架的無人機那2027年會籌貨到3000架以上的這個軍規上用的無人機\n442132\t457174\t但是烏克蘭每個月消耗是一萬架次的無人機但不管是他消耗的是哪一種無人機型有可能是堅稱的大型無人機或者是小型的這種他其實很難放在同一個量級去做平等\n458476\t481722\t什麼叫夠什麼叫不夠是一回事我們有沒有足夠的產量產能在當我們消耗完這些無人機的時候能夠再進行生產來去做補充這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分我們現在應該是說我們要運用我們的作戰需求那甚至有些高低配就是說有一些剛剛提到的大量大量的話成本一定要\n482902\t506869\t要能夠降低那有一些是屬於比較精準的那就可能會價格會高一點那這個會高低配那這個根據作戰需求的話我剛剛已經提到了還是要尋找這個他在跟他萬一要進犯的時候他的最脆弱點的所在那我們最有效的這個無人機的攻擊對他是什麼那我們是首次作戰所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊從首次作戰\n508889\t527515\t找他的脆弱點來講相對於他來講他的無人機要過來特別是當然他大型的無人機當然是可以過來但是他如果他的小型無人機沒有辦法回那麼遠的話那相對來講我們的小型無人機應對他的這個登島作戰的在這個不管近\n528254\t529234\t再跟委員做一個報告\n553424\t561990\t自主的產能確實是重要的因為這也是我們從烏克蘭經驗裡面要提到是非常非常重要的\n562284\t589145\t而且另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是說剛剛你提到小型無人機那小型無人機的航程有限等於說中國不可能源源不絕的來在作戰的場域裡面使用這些小型無人機而我們是在我們自己的我們自己的這個祖國我們自己的台灣的本島上面或者是在離島上面所以我們反而有足夠的儲備力量甚至是生產能量來去把這些小型無人機補足那他們還必須要一批一批的運送過來那這是一個我們\n589986\t590126\t委員會主席\n605131\t627442\t那不管是海上的載具跟海下的載具那我們在民雄航太園區它是中科院的我們的一個旗艦型的計畫那當然我們看到很多包含這個分享的一些你說AI的建置等等一些實驗室的分享等等場區的有沒有針對這個海面上海面下的這一些無人載具也能夠使用的\n629166\t651244\t因為那個地理限制的關係所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面反而是沒有海面的所以說他沒有辦法說在模擬simulation如果是模擬的部分我們是可以協助的也是可以協助的也就是說未來進駐的航太園區的除了是在你說路面上或者是\n652085\t660129\t因為模擬算力它最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計所以這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的\n674702\t675222\t民雄航太園區當初在地方有開說明會\n694298\t715214\t那這個說明會的時候其實有包含村長還有一些村落的一些比較年長的這些長輩有提到說二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄也就是在民雄航太援軍復訓有進行轟炸所以他們提供相關的防空設施還有這個抗炸能力掩體\n716115\t728747\t有沒有相關規劃因為根據我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看到還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們的中科院及產業園區內所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量\n730431\t745529\t跟委員報告就是目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃而是把它列入國軍的整體防空的部分但是未來隨著明年PCM我們整個園區的細部規劃出來之後我們勢必也會針對中間的重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃\n746670\t774427\t我不但在跟民眾講說民雄航太園區它不僅只是軍用它對於地方上面產業的這個促進因為會有大量的工程人員或者是商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司創新公司它不見得是百分之百軍用的那商用的也是很大的部分可是他們會有提出這樣的擔憂點所以他們甚至說不是在航太園區而是在鄰近的周遭的四個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難甚至是\n775751\t775911\t謝謝 再次感謝\n","txt":"國防部部長請顧部長是陳偉部長好部長有沒有看到一個最新在Foreign Policy外交政策上面投稿的文章由臺灣民意基金會研究員黃寶榮破晃的這一篇文章有沒有得到相關的這個訊息\n這篇文章裡面有提到北京南德信息技術有限公司聲稱在國防安全領域提供諮詢\n那這個在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面有把海豐部隊也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型的這個部隊的一些情資其實在公有的領域上面就看到我們民眾對就是我剛所講的這個對像這個部分不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的這個訊息我有看到相關的報導那我想我們現在要重要的當然就是做一個\n一個應該是說一個汛機管理的一個重要性這個重要性要讓所有的部隊的長官還有所有的官兵都能夠了解這個汛機管理的東西就是說你在整個過程當中你必須要氣力偽裝隱匿還有對你無線電的信號要做管制等等\n不斷地去變段你的戰術位置這個是非常重要的那因為像這樣子他的一個報導好像意思就是說我如果理解沒有他會說瞬間我們就會整個會被摧毀我記得我看到的是這樣但是我想我們真正的這個在進行的時候呢\n我們會有不同的戰術為止不會是固定的那最重要最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的整個汛機的管理對戰力整個保存是非常非常重要還有然後在第一時間不會被摧毀然後甚至能夠保存下來那然後來進而進行反制那這樣子的一個汛機管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的一個一個演練的項目之一這樣\n所以你覺得在這個他所投稿的文章裡面,他提出來的確實是一個可以我們改進的一個方向嗎?對,因為信息管理現在是一個重要,我剛剛提到的是一個重要的一個演練的科目。\n另外一個部分就是說在這個不管是海豐部隊在進行在部署的時候有大量的這一個一般民眾或許是媒體這樣子拍照然後把這樣子的訊息那透過公開來分享這些公開的請知這變成公開的請知了嘛這會不會影響到我們的情報安全我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以來去做不管是在法律層級上面或者是有什麼我們能夠做的\n其實跟委員報告這個其實是變成是一個我們如果講說叫反沾那如果我們被反沾出來其實這是不對的那我們如何讓他做好更淒敵的部分我比如說舉我不想就是說我們讓人家看不出來這是這是那個軍用那個軍用的裝備這件事情應該要來更加強所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點\n主要看到這幾個剛才提到的看起來都被我們的各媒體都有掌握到所以說可能我們自己也要來思考一下剛才部長你提到的偽裝的部分必須假設就是這些\n請國防部長報告\n委員好 我是海軍參謀長那回應您的問題有關其實我們整個機動部隊的一個位置的選刊它有一般的我們的一個實際上的戰術位置以及平常的一個機動路線\n反情報有可能是以真是假\n這篇文章提供12個海豐部隊的\n主張基地的確切坐標那其實這個我們假設北京知道因為只要是駐紮地我們知道但是如果是機動部隊那被設計出來就是不希望被知道那所以怎麼樣反情報還有人因吶我必須還是強調人因就是包含昨天我們在質詢的時候有提到說安全層級的這個設防就是說有的時候我們想要反情報那我們可能派駐可是如果我們的\n陳冠廷\n武器裝備是使用的人還有指揮的人還有他怎麼用的情報所以這個這兩天的包含安全層級我一直在跟部長在強調這Clearance的部分就是說這個他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關有些時候甚至是負相關的時候那我們變成我們安全揭密的這個層級是要因應他的揭密層級\n謝謝,好謝謝\n部長目前我們今天談到的國軍我們所有的擁有的無人載具那當然大家都會說數量足不足以面對中國的威脅但其實不僅僅是數量因為現在國防部他籌貨的近千架的無人機那2027年會籌貨到3000架以上的這個軍規上用的無人機\n但是烏克蘭每個月消耗是一萬架次的無人機但不管是他消耗的是哪一種無人機型有可能是堅稱的大型無人機或者是小型的這種他其實很難放在同一個量級去做平等\n什麼叫夠什麼叫不夠是一回事我們有沒有足夠的產量產能在當我們消耗完這些無人機的時候能夠再進行生產來去做補充這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分我們現在應該是說我們要運用我們的作戰需求那甚至有些高低配就是說有一些剛剛提到的大量大量的話成本一定要\n要能夠降低那有一些是屬於比較精準的那就可能會價格會高一點那這個會高低配那這個根據作戰需求的話我剛剛已經提到了還是要尋找這個他在跟他萬一要進犯的時候他的最脆弱點的所在那我們最有效的這個無人機的攻擊對他是什麼那我們是首次作戰所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊從首次作戰\n找他的脆弱點來講相對於他來講他的無人機要過來特別是當然他大型的無人機當然是可以過來但是他如果他的小型無人機沒有辦法回那麼遠的話那相對來講我們的小型無人機應對他的這個登島作戰的在這個不管近\n再跟委員做一個報告\n自主的產能確實是重要的因為這也是我們從烏克蘭經驗裡面要提到是非常非常重要的\n而且另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是說剛剛你提到小型無人機那小型無人機的航程有限等於說中國不可能源源不絕的來在作戰的場域裡面使用這些小型無人機而我們是在我們自己的我們自己的這個祖國我們自己的台灣的本島上面或者是在離島上面所以我們反而有足夠的儲備力量甚至是生產能量來去把這些小型無人機補足那他們還必須要一批一批的運送過來那這是一個我們\n委員會主席\n那不管是海上的載具跟海下的載具那我們在民雄航太園區它是中科院的我們的一個旗艦型的計畫那當然我們看到很多包含這個分享的一些你說AI的建置等等一些實驗室的分享等等場區的有沒有針對這個海面上海面下的這一些無人載具也能夠使用的\n因為那個地理限制的關係所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面反而是沒有海面的所以說他沒有辦法說在模擬simulation如果是模擬的部分我們是可以協助的也是可以協助的也就是說未來進駐的航太園區的除了是在你說路面上或者是\n因為模擬算力它最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計所以這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的\n民雄航太園區當初在地方有開說明會\n那這個說明會的時候其實有包含村長還有一些村落的一些比較年長的這些長輩有提到說二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄也就是在民雄航太援軍復訓有進行轟炸所以他們提供相關的防空設施還有這個抗炸能力掩體\n有沒有相關規劃因為根據我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看到還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們的中科院及產業園區內所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量\n跟委員報告就是目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃而是把它列入國軍的整體防空的部分但是未來隨著明年PCM我們整個園區的細部規劃出來之後我們勢必也會針對中間的重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃\n我不但在跟民眾講說民雄航太園區它不僅只是軍用它對於地方上面產業的這個促進因為會有大量的工程人員或者是商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司創新公司它不見得是百分之百軍用的那商用的也是很大的部分可是他們會有提出這樣的擔憂點所以他們甚至說不是在航太園區而是在鄰近的周遭的四個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難甚至是\n謝謝 再次感謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:23.464\n國防部部長請顧部長是陳偉部長好部長有沒有看到一個最新在ForeignPolicy外交政策上面投稿的文章由臺灣民意基金會研究員黃寶榮破晃的這一篇文章有沒有得到相關的這個訊息\n\n00:26.643 --> 00:30.105\n這篇文章裡面有提到北京南德信息技術有限公司聲稱在國防安全領域提供諮詢\n\n00:55.031 --> 01:23.428\n那這個在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面有把海豐部隊也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型的這個部隊的一些情資其實在公有的領域上面就看到我們民眾對就是我剛所講的這個對像這個部分不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的這個訊息我有看到相關的報導那我想我們現在要重要的當然就是做一個\n\n01:25.509 --> 01:49.376\n一個應該是說一個汛機管理的一個重要性這個重要性要讓所有的部隊的長官還有所有的官兵都能夠了解這個汛機管理的東西就是說你在整個過程當中你必須要氣力偽裝隱匿還有對你無線電的信號要做管制等等\n\n01:50.436 --> 02:11.035\n不斷地去變段你的戰術位置這個是非常重要的那因為像這樣子他的一個報導好像意思就是說我如果理解沒有他會說瞬間我們就會整個會被摧毀我記得我看到的是這樣但是我想我們真正的這個在進行的時候呢\n\n02:11.465 --> 02:39.838\n我們會有不同的戰術為止不會是固定的那最重要最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的整個汛機的管理對戰力整個保存是非常非常重要還有然後在第一時間不會被摧毀然後甚至能夠保存下來那然後來進而進行反制那這樣子的一個汛機管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的一個一個演練的項目之一這樣\n\n02:40.632 --> 02:54.911\n所以你覺得在這個他所投稿的文章裡面,他提出來的確實是一個可以我們改進的一個方向嗎?對,因為信息管理現在是一個重要,我剛剛提到的是一個重要的一個演練的科目。\n\n02:56.072 --> 03:24.537\n另外一個部分就是說在這個不管是海豐部隊在進行在部署的時候有大量的這一個一般民眾或許是媒體這樣子拍照然後把這樣子的訊息那透過公開來分享這些公開的請知這變成公開的請知了嘛這會不會影響到我們的情報安全我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以來去做不管是在法律層級上面或者是有什麼我們能夠做的\n\n03:25.734 --> 03:54.564\n其實跟委員報告這個其實是變成是一個我們如果講說叫反沾那如果我們被反沾出來其實這是不對的那我們如何讓他做好更淒敵的部分我比如說舉我不想就是說我們讓人家看不出來這是這是那個軍用那個軍用的裝備這件事情應該要來更加強所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點\n\n03:55.044 --> 04:11.297\n主要看到這幾個剛才提到的看起來都被我們的各媒體都有掌握到所以說可能我們自己也要來思考一下剛才部長你提到的偽裝的部分必須假設就是這些\n\n04:12.864 --> 04:13.144\n請國防部長報告\n\n04:31.076 --> 04:44.726\n委員好我是海軍參謀長那回應您的問題有關其實我們整個機動部隊的一個位置的選刊它有一般的我們的一個實際上的戰術位置以及平常的一個機動路線\n\n04:46.147 --> 04:47.207\n反情報有可能是以真是假\n\n05:08.132 --> 05:08.953\n這篇文章提供12個海豐部隊的\n\n05:26.745 --> 05:49.790\n主張基地的確切坐標那其實這個我們假設北京知道因為只要是駐紮地我們知道但是如果是機動部隊那被設計出來就是不希望被知道那所以怎麼樣反情報還有人因吶我必須還是強調人因就是包含昨天我們在質詢的時候有提到說安全層級的這個設防就是說有的時候我們想要反情報那我們可能派駐可是如果我們的\n\n05:50.330 --> 05:50.510\n陳冠廷\n\n06:11.764 --> 06:35.315\n武器裝備是使用的人還有指揮的人還有他怎麼用的情報所以這個這兩天的包含安全層級我一直在跟部長在強調這Clearance的部分就是說這個他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關有些時候甚至是負相關的時候那我們變成我們安全揭密的這個層級是要因應他的揭密層級\n\n06:36.115 --> 06:36.135\n謝謝,好謝謝\n\n07:01.297 --> 07:17.669\n部長目前我們今天談到的國軍我們所有的擁有的無人載具那當然大家都會說數量足不足以面對中國的威脅但其實不僅僅是數量因為現在國防部他籌貨的近千架的無人機那2027年會籌貨到3000架以上的這個軍規上用的無人機\n\n07:22.132 --> 07:37.174\n但是烏克蘭每個月消耗是一萬架次的無人機但不管是他消耗的是哪一種無人機型有可能是堅稱的大型無人機或者是小型的這種他其實很難放在同一個量級去做平等\n\n07:38.476 --> 08:01.722\n什麼叫夠什麼叫不夠是一回事我們有沒有足夠的產量產能在當我們消耗完這些無人機的時候能夠再進行生產來去做補充這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分我們現在應該是說我們要運用我們的作戰需求那甚至有些高低配就是說有一些剛剛提到的大量大量的話成本一定要\n\n08:02.902 --> 08:26.869\n要能夠降低那有一些是屬於比較精準的那就可能會價格會高一點那這個會高低配那這個根據作戰需求的話我剛剛已經提到了還是要尋找這個他在跟他萬一要進犯的時候他的最脆弱點的所在那我們最有效的這個無人機的攻擊對他是什麼那我們是首次作戰所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊從首次作戰\n\n08:28.889 --> 08:47.515\n找他的脆弱點來講相對於他來講他的無人機要過來特別是當然他大型的無人機當然是可以過來但是他如果他的小型無人機沒有辦法回那麼遠的話那相對來講我們的小型無人機應對他的這個登島作戰的在這個不管近\n\n08:48.254 --> 08:49.234\n再跟委員做一個報告\n\n09:13.424 --> 09:21.990\n自主的產能確實是重要的因為這也是我們從烏克蘭經驗裡面要提到是非常非常重要的\n\n09:22.284 --> 09:49.145\n而且另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是說剛剛你提到小型無人機那小型無人機的航程有限等於說中國不可能源源不絕的來在作戰的場域裡面使用這些小型無人機而我們是在我們自己的我們自己的這個祖國我們自己的台灣的本島上面或者是在離島上面所以我們反而有足夠的儲備力量甚至是生產能量來去把這些小型無人機補足那他們還必須要一批一批的運送過來那這是一個我們\n\n09:49.986 --> 09:50.126\n委員會主席\n\n10:05.131 --> 10:27.442\n那不管是海上的載具跟海下的載具那我們在民雄航太園區它是中科院的我們的一個旗艦型的計畫那當然我們看到很多包含這個分享的一些你說AI的建置等等一些實驗室的分享等等場區的有沒有針對這個海面上海面下的這一些無人載具也能夠使用的\n\n10:29.166 --> 10:51.244\n因為那個地理限制的關係所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面反而是沒有海面的所以說他沒有辦法說在模擬simulation如果是模擬的部分我們是可以協助的也是可以協助的也就是說未來進駐的航太園區的除了是在你說路面上或者是\n\n10:52.085 --> 11:00.129\n因為模擬算力它最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計所以這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的\n\n11:14.702 --> 11:15.222\n民雄航太園區當初在地方有開說明會\n\n11:34.298 --> 11:55.214\n那這個說明會的時候其實有包含村長還有一些村落的一些比較年長的這些長輩有提到說二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄也就是在民雄航太援軍復訓有進行轟炸所以他們提供相關的防空設施還有這個抗炸能力掩體\n\n11:56.115 --> 12:08.747\n有沒有相關規劃因為根據我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看到還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們的中科院及產業園區內所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量\n\n12:10.431 --> 12:25.529\n跟委員報告就是目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃而是把它列入國軍的整體防空的部分但是未來隨著明年PCM我們整個園區的細部規劃出來之後我們勢必也會針對中間的重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃\n\n12:26.670 --> 12:54.427\n我不但在跟民眾講說民雄航太園區它不僅只是軍用它對於地方上面產業的這個促進因為會有大量的工程人員或者是商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司創新公司它不見得是百分之百軍用的那商用的也是很大的部分可是他們會有提出這樣的擔憂點所以他們甚至說不是在航太園區而是在鄰近的周遭的四個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難甚至是\n\n12:55.751 --> 12:55.911\n謝謝再次感謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":23.464,"text":"國防部部長請顧部長是陳偉部長好部長有沒有看到一個最新在Foreign Policy外交政策上面投稿的文章由臺灣民意基金會研究員黃寶榮破晃的這一篇文章有沒有得到相關的這個訊息"},{"start":26.643,"end":30.105,"text":"這篇文章裡面有提到北京南德信息技術有限公司聲稱在國防安全領域提供諮詢"},{"start":55.031,"end":83.428,"text":"那這個在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面有把海豐部隊也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型的這個部隊的一些情資其實在公有的領域上面就看到我們民眾對就是我剛所講的這個對像這個部分不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的這個訊息我有看到相關的報導那我想我們現在要重要的當然就是做一個"},{"start":85.509,"end":109.376,"text":"一個應該是說一個汛機管理的一個重要性這個重要性要讓所有的部隊的長官還有所有的官兵都能夠了解這個汛機管理的東西就是說你在整個過程當中你必須要氣力偽裝隱匿還有對你無線電的信號要做管制等等"},{"start":110.436,"end":131.035,"text":"不斷地去變段你的戰術位置這個是非常重要的那因為像這樣子他的一個報導好像意思就是說我如果理解沒有他會說瞬間我們就會整個會被摧毀我記得我看到的是這樣但是我想我們真正的這個在進行的時候呢"},{"start":131.465,"end":159.838,"text":"我們會有不同的戰術為止不會是固定的那最重要最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的整個汛機的管理對戰力整個保存是非常非常重要還有然後在第一時間不會被摧毀然後甚至能夠保存下來那然後來進而進行反制那這樣子的一個汛機管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的一個一個演練的項目之一這樣"},{"start":160.632,"end":174.911,"text":"所以你覺得在這個他所投稿的文章裡面,他提出來的確實是一個可以我們改進的一個方向嗎?對,因為信息管理現在是一個重要,我剛剛提到的是一個重要的一個演練的科目。"},{"start":176.072,"end":204.537,"text":"另外一個部分就是說在這個不管是海豐部隊在進行在部署的時候有大量的這一個一般民眾或許是媒體這樣子拍照然後把這樣子的訊息那透過公開來分享這些公開的請知這變成公開的請知了嘛這會不會影響到我們的情報安全我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以來去做不管是在法律層級上面或者是有什麼我們能夠做的"},{"start":205.734,"end":234.564,"text":"其實跟委員報告這個其實是變成是一個我們如果講說叫反沾那如果我們被反沾出來其實這是不對的那我們如何讓他做好更淒敵的部分我比如說舉我不想就是說我們讓人家看不出來這是這是那個軍用那個軍用的裝備這件事情應該要來更加強所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點"},{"start":235.044,"end":251.297,"text":"主要看到這幾個剛才提到的看起來都被我們的各媒體都有掌握到所以說可能我們自己也要來思考一下剛才部長你提到的偽裝的部分必須假設就是這些"},{"start":252.864,"end":253.144,"text":"請國防部長報告"},{"start":271.076,"end":284.726,"text":"委員好 我是海軍參謀長那回應您的問題有關其實我們整個機動部隊的一個位置的選刊它有一般的我們的一個實際上的戰術位置以及平常的一個機動路線"},{"start":286.147,"end":287.207,"text":"反情報有可能是以真是假"},{"start":308.132,"end":308.953,"text":"這篇文章提供12個海豐部隊的"},{"start":326.745,"end":349.79,"text":"主張基地的確切坐標那其實這個我們假設北京知道因為只要是駐紮地我們知道但是如果是機動部隊那被設計出來就是不希望被知道那所以怎麼樣反情報還有人因吶我必須還是強調人因就是包含昨天我們在質詢的時候有提到說安全層級的這個設防就是說有的時候我們想要反情報那我們可能派駐可是如果我們的"},{"start":350.33,"end":350.51,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":371.764,"end":395.315,"text":"武器裝備是使用的人還有指揮的人還有他怎麼用的情報所以這個這兩天的包含安全層級我一直在跟部長在強調這Clearance的部分就是說這個他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關有些時候甚至是負相關的時候那我們變成我們安全揭密的這個層級是要因應他的揭密層級"},{"start":396.115,"end":396.135,"text":"謝謝,好謝謝"},{"start":421.297,"end":437.669,"text":"部長目前我們今天談到的國軍我們所有的擁有的無人載具那當然大家都會說數量足不足以面對中國的威脅但其實不僅僅是數量因為現在國防部他籌貨的近千架的無人機那2027年會籌貨到3000架以上的這個軍規上用的無人機"},{"start":442.132,"end":457.174,"text":"但是烏克蘭每個月消耗是一萬架次的無人機但不管是他消耗的是哪一種無人機型有可能是堅稱的大型無人機或者是小型的這種他其實很難放在同一個量級去做平等"},{"start":458.476,"end":481.722,"text":"什麼叫夠什麼叫不夠是一回事我們有沒有足夠的產量產能在當我們消耗完這些無人機的時候能夠再進行生產來去做補充這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分我們現在應該是說我們要運用我們的作戰需求那甚至有些高低配就是說有一些剛剛提到的大量大量的話成本一定要"},{"start":482.902,"end":506.869,"text":"要能夠降低那有一些是屬於比較精準的那就可能會價格會高一點那這個會高低配那這個根據作戰需求的話我剛剛已經提到了還是要尋找這個他在跟他萬一要進犯的時候他的最脆弱點的所在那我們最有效的這個無人機的攻擊對他是什麼那我們是首次作戰所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊從首次作戰"},{"start":508.889,"end":527.515,"text":"找他的脆弱點來講相對於他來講他的無人機要過來特別是當然他大型的無人機當然是可以過來但是他如果他的小型無人機沒有辦法回那麼遠的話那相對來講我們的小型無人機應對他的這個登島作戰的在這個不管近"},{"start":528.254,"end":529.234,"text":"再跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":553.424,"end":561.99,"text":"自主的產能確實是重要的因為這也是我們從烏克蘭經驗裡面要提到是非常非常重要的"},{"start":562.284,"end":589.145,"text":"而且另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是說剛剛你提到小型無人機那小型無人機的航程有限等於說中國不可能源源不絕的來在作戰的場域裡面使用這些小型無人機而我們是在我們自己的我們自己的這個祖國我們自己的台灣的本島上面或者是在離島上面所以我們反而有足夠的儲備力量甚至是生產能量來去把這些小型無人機補足那他們還必須要一批一批的運送過來那這是一個我們"},{"start":589.986,"end":590.126,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":605.131,"end":627.442,"text":"那不管是海上的載具跟海下的載具那我們在民雄航太園區它是中科院的我們的一個旗艦型的計畫那當然我們看到很多包含這個分享的一些你說AI的建置等等一些實驗室的分享等等場區的有沒有針對這個海面上海面下的這一些無人載具也能夠使用的"},{"start":629.166,"end":651.244,"text":"因為那個地理限制的關係所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面反而是沒有海面的所以說他沒有辦法說在模擬simulation如果是模擬的部分我們是可以協助的也是可以協助的也就是說未來進駐的航太園區的除了是在你說路面上或者是"},{"start":652.085,"end":660.129,"text":"因為模擬算力它最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計所以這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的"},{"start":674.702,"end":675.222,"text":"民雄航太園區當初在地方有開說明會"},{"start":694.298,"end":715.214,"text":"那這個說明會的時候其實有包含村長還有一些村落的一些比較年長的這些長輩有提到說二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄也就是在民雄航太援軍復訓有進行轟炸所以他們提供相關的防空設施還有這個抗炸能力掩體"},{"start":716.115,"end":728.747,"text":"有沒有相關規劃因為根據我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看到還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們的中科院及產業園區內所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量"},{"start":730.431,"end":745.529,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃而是把它列入國軍的整體防空的部分但是未來隨著明年PCM我們整個園區的細部規劃出來之後我們勢必也會針對中間的重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃"},{"start":746.67,"end":774.427,"text":"我不但在跟民眾講說民雄航太園區它不僅只是軍用它對於地方上面產業的這個促進因為會有大量的工程人員或者是商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司創新公司它不見得是百分之百軍用的那商用的也是很大的部分可是他們會有提出這樣的擔憂點所以他們甚至說不是在航太園區而是在鄰近的周遭的四個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難甚至是"},{"start":775.751,"end":775.911,"text":"謝謝 再次感謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時20分）我們請國防部部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長有沒有看過一篇在最新Foreign Policy（外交政策）投搞的文章，也就是臺灣民意基金會研究員黃保羅（Paul Huang）的這篇文章？有沒有得到相關的訊息？"],["顧部長立雄：您講的是雄二、雄三飛彈被透露的這個部分嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，我講的是海鋒部隊的部分。沒關係，這個不僅僅是這樣，主要是針對這個部分想請教，這篇文章裡面有提到，北京藍德信息科技有限公司聲稱在國防安全領域提供諮詢，在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面，有把海鋒部隊，也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型部隊的一些情資，在公有的領域上面……"],["顧部長立雄：對，這就是我剛剛所講的這個。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。像這個部分，不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的訊息？"],["顧部長立雄：我有看到相關的報導，我想我們現在重要的當然就是做一個訊跡管理的重要性，這個重要性要讓所有部隊的長官，還有所有官兵都能夠瞭解這個訊跡管理的東西。也就是說，在整個過程當中，你必須要欺敵偽裝、隱匿、對無線電信號要管制等等，不斷地變換戰術位置，這個是非常重要的。像這樣子的報導，如果我理解得沒錯，它的意思就是說，我們整個會被瞬間摧毀，我記得我看到的是這樣，但是我想真正在進行的時候，我們會有不同的戰術位置，不會是固定的，最重要、最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的，整個訊跡的管理對戰力整個的保存是非常非常重要的，要在第一時間不會被摧毀，甚至能夠保存下來，進而進行反制，這樣子的訊跡管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的演練項目之一。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以你覺得在他所投稿的文章裡面，他提出來的確實是給我們一個改進的方向嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：對、對，因為我剛剛提到的，訊跡管理現在是一個重要的演練科目。"],["陳委員冠廷：另外一個部分就是海鋒部隊在進行部署的時候，有大量的一般民眾或是媒體這樣子拍照，然後把這樣子的訊息透過公開來分享，這就變成公開的情資了，這樣會不會影響到我們的情報安全？我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以因應，不管是在法律層級上面，或者是其他，有什麼我們能夠做的？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個其實我們叫反瞻，如果我們被反瞻出來，這是不對的，我們要如何讓它做好更欺敵的部分，讓人家看不出來這是軍用的裝備，這件事情應該要更加強，所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為主要剛才提到的這幾個看起來都被各媒體掌握到，所以我們自己可能也要來思考一下剛才部長提到的偽裝部分，必須假設這些資訊中國可能都會透過媒體得知，因為我們是自由民主開放的國家，我們沒有辦法像中國一樣全面封鎖……"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以在我國的體制之下，怎麼樣因應是能夠儘量做到的，是不是可以請部長，還有國防部，簡單來講一下？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好！我是海軍參謀長，回應您的問題，其實我們整個機動部隊的位置選勘有實際上的戰術位置，以及平常的機動路線，我們的點很多，我們會有不特定的，目前這個被照到的點也是我們的，其實我們在做的部分也有隱真示假的功能，實際上我們有一個規劃，所以後面也要強化反情報的作為，這也在後面研改的範疇。"],["陳委員冠廷：反情報，有可能是隱真示假，我覺得這樣子聽起來我們國人會更加的放心。"],["顧部長立雄：對，反情報、反瞻，就它如果真正做好偽裝，我們去反瞻，反而還看得出來，就表示它是失敗的，我們就要再加強。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為這篇文章提供12個海鋒部隊駐紮基地的確切座標，這個我們假設北京知道，只要是駐紮基地，我們知道，但是如果是機動部隊的，被設計出來的，就是不希望被知道，所以怎麼樣反情報？還有人因，我還是必須強調人因，包含昨天我們在質詢的時候有提到安全層級的設防，就是有些時候我們想要反情報，我們可能派駐，可是如果我們的計畫不是被駭客侵入，而是由我們本身的人外洩，剛才林楚茵委員也有提到，他可能會利用國軍弟兄的財務狀況去做侵入，甚至是去收買一些國軍弟兄，這個都是我們必須要注意的。所以現在的作戰已經不是只有武器裝備而已，還有武器裝備使用的人，還有指揮的人，還有他用的情報……"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這兩天我一直在跟部長強調，包含安全層級這個coherence的部分，就是他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關，有些時候甚至是負相關，變成我們安全接密的層級要因應他的接密層級，而不是因應他的官階……"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：像是昨天我們講到的廉政署的那一位，可能……"],["顧部長立雄：是，委員講的對，就是我們按照美軍相關作法的話，我現在也已經要求了，不是以階級，而是以他接密的程度來進行人員安全的查核，這個部分已經列入我們安全總隊應該要查核的標準。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。部長，今天我們談到國軍所擁有的無人載具，當然大家都會說，數量足不足以面對中國的威脅？但其實不僅僅是數量的問題，現在國防部籌獲近千架的無人機，2027年會籌獲到3,000架以上的軍規無人機，但是烏俄戰爭烏克蘭每個月消耗1萬架次的無人機，不管它消耗的是哪一種無人機型，有可能是監偵型的大型無人機，或者是小型的，其實都很難放在同一個量級去做評等，所以什麼叫夠、什麼叫不夠是一回事，主要是我們有沒有足夠的產量、產能。當我們消耗完這一些無人機的時候，能夠再進行生產來做補充？這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在應該是要因應我們的作戰需求，甚至要有一些高低配，就是有一些是剛剛提到的要大量，大量的話，成本一定要能夠降低，有一些是屬於比較精準的，那就可能價格會高一點，這個會高低配。","根據作戰需求的話，我剛剛已經提到了，還是要尋找，萬一他要進犯的時候，他最脆弱點的所在，我們對他最有效的無人機攻擊是什麼，我們是守勢作戰，所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊守勢作戰，找他的脆弱點，相對於我們，他的無人機要過來，當然他的大型無人機可以過來，但是他的小型無人機如果沒有辦法飛那麼遠的話，相對來講，我們的小型無人機可以應對他的登島作戰，特別是近程、中程，偵打一體的也好，或者是消耗性的攻擊型一次消耗完，之後就結束了，這個部分我想我們很快就會有一些相關的成果出來，到時候再跟委員做一個報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常感謝！其實剛才部長……"],["顧部長立雄：自主的產能確實是重要的，這也是我們從烏克蘭的經驗裡面要提到的，是非常非常重要的一個。"],["陳委員冠廷：而且另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是剛剛你提到小型無人機，小型無人機的航程有限，等於中國不可能在作戰的場域裡面源源不絕的使用這些小型無人機，而我們是在自己的臺灣本島上面，或者是在離島上面，所以我們反而有足夠的儲備力量，甚至是生產能量，把這些小型無人機補足，他們還必須要一批一批的運送過來，這是一個我們占優勢敵方沒有占優勢的部分，所以這個當然是我們可以去思考的方向。","再來想要請教，可能是要請教院長，院長，我們現在大量的生產也好，或者是我們專注的部分，可能還是以無人機飛行器為主，不管是海上的載具或海下的載具，在民雄航太園區，它是中科院的一個旗艦型計畫，當然我們看到很多分享，包含你說的AI建置等等、實驗室等等、廠區，有沒有針對這一些海面上、海面下的無人載具也能夠使用的資源？"],["李院長世強：報告委員，因為地理限制的關係，所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面，反而是沒有海面的。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以它沒有辦法在模擬（simulation）……"],["李院長世強：如果是模擬的部分，我們是可以協助的。"],["陳委員冠廷：你們是可以協助的，也就是未來進駐航太園區的，除了在陸面上和在空中之外，甚至是海面下，只要不要到實際的場域做驗證的話，它還是可以在同樣的場域做模擬……"],["李院長世強：是，因為模擬算力最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計，這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景，所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我必須要強調，以後我們的民雄航太園區，包含水面下的這些廠商如果願意進駐，他們也是可以使用我們這些相關的資源嘛！"],["李院長世強：是，甚至包含檢測，我們也可以協助來做。"],["陳委員冠廷：檢測也可以，好，非常感謝。再來就是關於民雄航太園區，我們當初在地方有開說明會，這個說明會的時候，包含村長，還有村落一些比較年長的長輩，有提到二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄，也就是民雄航太園區附近，進行轟炸，所以他們提供相關的防空設施，還有抗炸能力的掩體，這個部分有沒有相關規劃？因為我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看，還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們中科院及產業園區內，所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量？"],["李院長世強：跟委員報告，目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃，而是把它列入國軍整體防空的部分，但是未來隨著明年PCM整個園區的細部規劃出來之後，我們勢必也會針對中間重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃。"],["陳委員冠廷：我不斷在跟民眾講說，民雄航太園區不僅只是軍用，它對於地方上面產業的促進，因為會有大量的工程人員、商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司，它不見得是百分之百軍用的，商用也是很大的部分，可是他們會提出這樣的擔憂點，他們甚至說不是在航太園區，而是在鄰近周遭的4個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難，甚至是加強它的防空設施在此區域裡面，因為我們剛才講到的生產能量，他們也想要打擊我們的生產能量，不僅是我們消耗多少，而是我們有沒有辦法恢復我們這樣子的量能優勢，所以這個部分是不是可以請國防部能夠來去做統一的規劃？"],["李院長世強：報告委員，我們會把它列入設計規劃。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝，再次感謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。接下來我們請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}}