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\"還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的這樣的一個操作型概念這是因為我覺得再跟您強調法律要明確性而且要可執行否則它會對社會上現在我們當然現在的壯世代定義是55plus嘛對不對55plus嘛對不對但是它現在有很多的這是方向性原則我覺得細節這個我們都可以再深入討論每一個細節每一個法要怎麼修\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 703.443, \"end\": 703.803, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 703.803, \"end\": 704.263, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 704.263, \"end\": 704.523, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 704.523, \"end\": 704.723, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 704.723, \"end\": 705.484, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 705.484, \"end\": 706.004, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 706.004, \"end\": 706.444, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 706.444, \"end\": 707.044, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 707.044, \"end\": 707.824, \"score\": 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\"start\": 752.941, \"end\": 753.042, \"score\": 0.548}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 753.042, \"end\": 753.242, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 753.242, \"end\": 753.262, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"廖\", \"start\": 753.902, \"end\": 754.102, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 754.102, \"end\": 754.322, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 754.322, \"end\": 754.342, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,882 --> 00:00:03,723\n謝謝主席有請我們何部長委員好部長好是部長我今天搭高鐵上來的時候啊我左前方坐著徐乃琳碰到徐乃琳了部長知道徐乃琳是誰嗎我知道那你覺得我遇到徐乃琳呢我應該要敬老禮讓這個靠窗的位置給她嗎\n\n2\n00:00:31,511 --> 00:00:33,711\n所以這就為什麼乃哥的敬老卡掉了他說讓他覺得很難堪啊\n\n3\n00:01:00,700 --> 00:01:16,885\n他說其實原因很簡單,就是我們所謂的這個近老族群,中高齡族群的刻板印象。你常常用這個講,他總覺得自己身心都漸漸地邁向衰老,好像對人生和這個社會開始失去了貢獻能力。\n\n4\n00:01:17,935 --> 00:01:30,390\n但是我想問部長我們在看乃哥主持的節目都很有活力很幽默、風趣甚至我覺得他比我這30幾歲的人更有創意更顯得年輕所以部長\n\n5\n00:01:32,137 --> 00:01:54,188\n這樣子的情況其實我們也可以常常看到有一些新聞報導媒體就五十幾歲的事件我都在介紹五十幾歲的人就會說半白老翁對不對有這狀況對不對所以部長我就說這不就是為什麼我們要訂出這個壯世代最重要的原因嗎消除年齡的歧視呢是不是\n\n6\n00:01:55,513 --> 00:02:14,750\n我剛剛報告有講過這壯世代是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念這我們是支持的對可是要上綱為法律這有待商榷好部長部長還有我們在場所有的官員我想請問你知道現在的身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是叫什麼嗎你知道嗎現在身心障礙權益保障法之前的名稱是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:21,737 --> 00:02:39,451\n就是委員秀出來的殘障福利法對嘛對不對所以那你難道要當初說這樣子立個法是有問題的嗎但現在大家都知道喔殘障這兩個字是歧視嘛所以這部法在民國86年就改名為身心障礙者保護法後來連保護這兩個字也改為權益保障\n\n8\n00:02:42,878 --> 00:02:54,013\n部長,我們在民國86年就知道要把這個產障改為身心障礙為何到了民國113年我們還在法規名稱上心態上對長者歧視呢?\n\n9\n00:02:55,193 --> 00:03:19,784\n委員這不是說不改名稱這個法律改名稱是要很嚴謹的定義啦當然啦但是我們在講這是一個guideline是一個指導原則嘛因為法律要明確性而且要可執行所以首先我們所以壯世代的定義剛剛你也聽到爭論挺多我想對但是我們今天在這裡也說了來討論然後什麼公聽會未來要怎麼做其實\n\n10\n00:03:20,504 --> 00:03:47,194\n如果認為還有不夠的地方還要討論的地方我們也都予以尊重我們可以再來努力但是我覺得這個東西其實這個就是一個很重要的概念所以我這裡還是要重申為什麼這件事情重要所以我覺得首先我剛剛講的這種地方是存在在我們社會的每個角落都有這個問題你如果政府沒有一起用法令去推動去改善這個人民腦袋中的關鍵的話\n\n11\n00:03:48,374 --> 00:04:03,767\n你現在搞再多其實你看到剛剛說很多委員都在說為什麼做不好很多的你說要促進中高齡就業為什麼做不好這都是有這個因素存在喔都是有的所以我也想要說一件事情就是\n\n12\n00:04:06,027 --> 00:04:24,272\n其實各部會也回應軍政同方向那現在突然就是覺得好像有很大的問題我覺得這可以大家可以來好好討論一下那所以呢我想要講的事情就是部長中高齡者高齡者就業促進法這個法名稱\n\n13\n00:04:25,672 --> 00:04:48,490\n我想要問當初也是用這個年齡去做定義然後那是不是可以用我意思是說這東西當然可以再去討論啦但是就是基本上要去去化這個歧視的概念當然對啦其實我一直也在思考喔究竟要怎麼做其實我們國人的不健康餘命是8年不健康餘命那為什麼北歐是兩個禮拜\n\n14\n00:04:51,239 --> 00:05:07,249\n我覺得這真的是應該要好好的去思考你說這個東西的定義或是要不要推動這件事情其實這個非常的重要而且你說討論不夠嗎其實我看行政院的壯世代跨部會的小組有13部會參與共同推動64項計畫公聽會有8次然後長這個全程參與\n\n15\n00:05:13,674 --> 00:05:30,807\n所以現在需要一個立法的來協助來推動這樣前瞻的規劃那其實我要再講回到這個其實我們上次就有討論到這件事嘛中高齡的這個中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法那所有的勞動部就業平等概括調查\n\n16\n00:05:32,708 --> 00:05:53,825\n職場歧視與年齡歧視占比最高。夜市一月三的調查也是說中高齡就業促進法上路之後57%的人感覺到無助於改善被歧視的狀況遠見雜誌的調查也說83%的民眾感受到年齡差別待遇我想這就是我們實質在存在的地方其實今天各部會\n\n17\n00:06:11,101 --> 00:06:11,241\n﹖廖偉翔﹖\n\n18\n00:06:30,723 --> 00:06:58,410\n不一定要為了反對而反對有很多細節大家可以討論各部會要怎麼做可以討論但我覺得現在就是我們很急迫的事情就是其實你們成立了過去的少子化辦公室等等其實在面對人口結構的變異產業跟這個勞動政策傾斜如果我們再不趕快做好這個整體的規劃現在的各種問題包括少子化產業經濟就會像未爆蛋一樣可能在某一個時刻就會爆炸所以少子化議題也談了十幾年\n\n19\n00:07:01,097 --> 00:07:26,194\n但少子化不但沒解決反而越來越嚴重剛剛我看到也有委員講很多說我們長照投入多少錢一千億多少錢的可是我還是回到剛剛講的我們的不健康餘命也沒改善沒改善多少所以你們到底要不要用創新的方式或是這樣的方式其實也不是說什麼各國全世界沒有其他人定義這件事情難道我們台灣這個極速\n\n20\n00:07:28,075 --> 00:07:56,490\n創造這個超高齡社會這個少子化的問題難道我們不能夠創新嗎難道我們不能夠有不同的思維來推動打破嗎不是要讓世界看到台灣嗎我覺得壯世代也是一個很好讓世界看到台灣的一個政策啊我覺得這講起來我出去都覺得很驕傲而且我在地方上講啊很多長輩啊就覺得這個對他們來講是很有重要意義啊其實我們去在地方上跑啊你去參加什麼關懷據點啊或者長青學院其實這些願意出來的人\n\n21\n00:08:17,729 --> 00:08:29,014\n他們都願意出來可是我要告訴你另外一個角度現在雖然在宣稱什麼我們關懷據點長青學院越來越多其實這還是這樣子的人口這樣子年齡人口的很小一部分\n\n22\n00:08:29,776 --> 00:08:55,294\n還是有很多人看不到這就是為什麼政府要帶頭去推動要讓媒體各個層面去改觀而且說真的現在的他這個法的也算是一個方向原則大政策導向原則也沒有所謂利益的問題剛剛我也尊重各個委員提到了什麼叫這個產業等等的問題我覺得這未來都可以細節去討論可是這個大方向一定要確定我覺得這大方向真的是非常的好而且對我年輕人來講年輕世代來講有什麼好\n\n23\n00:08:57,775 --> 00:09:16,978\n現在年輕世代在分子上面分母我們要扛很多3點多我今天看報告3點多嘛未來是要變得1比1啊那這時候怎麼辦我們當然要把分母把這些這個55歲以上年齡人口的人拉下來變成分子嘛這些人都還是有很多的這個價值可以創造的\n\n24\n00:09:18,297 --> 00:09:41,618\n所以我想要說其實現在的這部分我們剛講到這一切已經在我們的各個層面浮現了而且在台灣是惡性的螺旋少子化和超高齡這問題只有不斷的擴大所以如果再不解決它一直以來就是這個國安問題所以我希望各黨派真的秉出這個旗艦這個是全台灣我們國家面對的\n\n25\n00:09:42,739 --> 00:10:07,932\n而且憑良心講各部會回應也都有這個軍認同我看到那個報告裡面大家有多覺得認同這個方向啊那到底呢我們是不是要好好的我們可以去討論各個細節但是我覺得這個大方向真的大家要努力的推動不要因為政黨的問題因為目前為止所有你不管是這個我上次還問你說那你要怎麼消除這個所有的參與對於這個中高齡者的歧視問題\n\n26\n00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:09,540\n﹚廖偉翔\n\n27\n00:10:48,277 --> 00:10:48,457\n議員吳春城\n\n28\n00:11:08,823 --> 00:11:22,560\n所以我希望說我想問到各部會可不可以回去盤點一下其實這個勞基法只是一個例子和剛剛這些都是一個例子我們各部會是不是可以盤點自己因應這個壯世代政策能夠修改的法律跟政策\n\n29\n00:11:23,803 --> 00:11:41,061\n委員我可以補充一下嗎就是您提到好像殘障福利法競爭為身心障礙身權保護法基本上身心障礙它是有一個國際公約定義的它是非常明確的其實它背後概念也一樣嗎你當然你要跟我去做國際喔\n\n30\n00:11:43,443 --> 00:12:10,029\n還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的這樣的一個操作型概念這是因為我覺得再跟您強調法律要明確性而且要可執行否則它會對社會上現在我們當然現在的壯世代定義是55plus嘛對不對55plus嘛對不對但是它現在有很多的這是方向性原則我覺得細節這個我們都可以再深入討論每一個細節每一個法要怎麼修\n\n31\n00:12:10,669 --> 00:12:33,262\n可是我現在今天感受到的就是變成未反對而反對你可以跟我找一堆理由嘛就是每一條細節可是現在的修法它也都是很方向性的東西嘛那你說我們定義它也有定義啊我們有一個壯世代社會參與促進方案是76項的工作所以需要跨部會我覺得更需要強力的跨部會去推動\n\n32\n00:12:33,902 --> 00:12:34,342\n謝謝廖委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n882\t3723\t謝謝主席 有請我們何部長委員好部長好是部長我今天搭高鐵上來的時候啊我左前方坐著徐乃琳碰到徐乃琳了部長知道徐乃琳是誰嗎我知道那你覺得我遇到徐乃琳呢我應該要敬老禮讓這個靠窗的位置給她嗎\n31511\t33711\t所以這就為什麼乃哥的敬老卡掉了他說讓他覺得很難堪啊\n60700\t76885\t他說其實原因很簡單,就是我們所謂的這個近老族群,中高齡族群的刻板印象。你常常用這個講,他總覺得自己身心都漸漸地邁向衰老,好像對人生和這個社會開始失去了貢獻能力。\n77935\t90390\t但是我想問部長我們在看乃哥主持的節目都很有活力很幽默、風趣甚至我覺得他比我這30幾歲的人更有創意更顯得年輕所以部長\n92137\t114188\t這樣子的情況其實我們也可以常常看到有一些新聞報導媒體就五十幾歲的事件我都在介紹五十幾歲的人就會說半白老翁 對不對有這狀況對不對所以部長我就說這不就是為什麼我們要訂出這個壯世代最重要的原因嗎消除年齡的歧視呢是不是\n115513\t134750\t我剛剛報告有講過這壯世代是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念這我們是支持的對可是要上綱為法律這有待商榷好部長部長還有我們在場所有的官員我想請問你知道現在的身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是叫什麼嗎你知道嗎現在身心障礙權益保障法之前的名稱是什麼\n141737\t159451\t就是委員秀出來的殘障福利法對嘛 對不對所以那你難道要當初說這樣子立個法是有問題的嗎但現在大家都知道喔殘障這兩個字是歧視嘛所以這部法在民國86年就改名為身心障礙者保護法後來連保護這兩個字也改為權益保障\n162878\t174013\t部長,我們在民國86年就知道要把這個產障改為身心障礙為何到了民國113年我們還在法規名稱上心態上對長者歧視呢?\n175193\t199784\t委員 這不是說不改名稱 這個法律改名稱是要很嚴謹的定義啦當然啦 但是我們在講這是一個guideline 是一個指導原則嘛因為法律要明確性而且要可執行 所以首先我們所以壯世代的定義 剛剛你也聽到爭論挺多我想 對 但是我們今天在這裡也說了 來討論 然後什麼公聽會未來要怎麼做 其實\n200504\t227194\t如果認為還有不夠的地方還要討論的地方我們也都予以尊重我們可以再來努力但是我覺得這個東西其實這個就是一個很重要的概念所以我這裡還是要重申為什麼這件事情重要所以我覺得首先我剛剛講的這種地方是存在在我們社會的每個角落都有這個問題你如果政府沒有一起用法令去推動去改善這個人民腦袋中的關鍵的話\n228374\t243767\t你現在搞再多其實你看到剛剛說很多委員都在說為什麼做不好很多的你說要促進中高齡就業為什麼做不好這都是有這個因素存在喔都是有的所以我也想要說一件事情就是\n246027\t264272\t其實各部會也回應軍政同方向那現在突然就是覺得好像有很大的問題我覺得這可以大家可以來好好討論一下那所以呢我想要講的事情就是部長中高齡者高齡者就業促進法這個法名稱\n265672\t288490\t我想要問當初也是用這個年齡去做定義然後那是不是可以用我意思是說這東西當然可以再去討論啦但是就是基本上要去去化這個歧視的概念當然對啦其實我一直也在思考喔究竟要怎麼做其實我們國人的不健康餘命是8年不健康餘命那為什麼北歐是兩個禮拜\n291239\t307249\t我覺得這真的是應該要好好的去思考你說這個東西的定義或是要不要推動這件事情其實這個非常的重要而且你說討論不夠嗎其實我看行政院的壯世代跨部會的小組有13部會參與共同推動64項計畫公聽會有8次然後長這個全程參與\n313674\t330807\t所以現在需要一個立法的來協助來推動這樣前瞻的規劃那其實我要再講回到這個其實我們上次就有討論到這件事嘛中高齡的這個中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法那所有的勞動部就業平等概括調查\n332708\t353825\t職場歧視與年齡歧視占比最高。夜市一月三的調查也是說中高齡就業促進法上路之後57%的人感覺到無助於改善被歧視的狀況遠見雜誌的調查也說83%的民眾感受到年齡差別待遇我想這就是我們實質在存在的地方其實今天各部會\n356101\t371101\t⋯⋯⋯\n371101\t371241\t﹖廖偉翔﹖\n390723\t418410\t不一定要為了反對而反對有很多細節大家可以討論各部會要怎麼做可以討論但我覺得現在就是我們很急迫的事情就是其實你們成立了過去的少子化辦公室等等其實在面對人口結構的變異產業跟這個勞動政策傾斜如果我們再不趕快做好這個整體的規劃現在的各種問題包括少子化產業經濟就會像未爆蛋一樣可能在某一個時刻就會爆炸所以少子化議題也談了十幾年\n421097\t446194\t但少子化不但沒解決反而越來越嚴重剛剛我看到也有委員講很多說我們長照投入多少錢一千億多少錢的可是我還是回到剛剛講的我們的不健康餘命也沒改善沒改善多少所以你們到底要不要用創新的方式或是這樣的方式其實也不是說什麼各國全世界沒有其他人定義這件事情難道我們台灣這個極速\n448075\t476490\t創造這個超高齡社會這個少子化的問題難道我們不能夠創新嗎難道我們不能夠有不同的思維來推動打破嗎不是要讓世界看到台灣嗎我覺得壯世代也是一個很好讓世界看到台灣的一個政策啊我覺得這講起來我出去都覺得很驕傲而且我在地方上講啊很多長輩啊就覺得這個對他們來講是很有重要意義啊其實我們去在地方上跑啊你去參加什麼關懷據點啊或者長青學院其實這些願意出來的人\n477210\t497449\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n497729\t509014\t他們都願意出來可是我要告訴你另外一個角度現在雖然在宣稱什麼我們關懷據點長青學院越來越多其實這還是這樣子的人口這樣子年齡人口的很小一部分\n509776\t535294\t還是有很多人看不到這就是為什麼政府要帶頭去推動要讓媒體各個層面去改觀而且說真的現在的他這個法的也算是一個方向原則大政策導向原則也沒有所謂利益的問題剛剛我也尊重各個委員提到了什麼叫這個產業等等的問題我覺得這未來都可以細節去討論可是這個大方向一定要確定我覺得這大方向真的是非常的好而且對我年輕人來講年輕世代來講有什麼好\n537775\t556978\t現在年輕世代在分子上面分母我們要扛很多3點多我今天看報告3點多嘛未來是要變得1比1啊那這時候怎麼辦我們當然要把分母把這些這個55歲以上年齡人口的人拉下來變成分子嘛這些人都還是有很多的這個價值可以創造的\n558297\t581618\t所以我想要說其實現在的這部分我們剛講到這一切已經在我們的各個層面浮現了而且在台灣是惡性的螺旋少子化和超高齡這問題只有不斷的擴大所以如果再不解決它一直以來就是這個國安問題所以我希望各黨派真的秉出這個旗艦這個是全台灣我們國家面對的\n582739\t607932\t而且憑良心講各部會回應也都有這個軍認同我看到那個報告裡面大家有多覺得認同這個方向啊那到底呢我們是不是要好好的我們可以去討論各個細節但是我覺得這個大方向真的大家要努力的推動不要因為政黨的問題因為目前為止所有你不管是這個我上次還問你說那你要怎麼消除這個所有的參與對於這個中高齡者的歧視問題\n609400\t609540\t﹚廖偉翔\n626869\t647892\t⋯⋯⋯\n648277\t648457\t議員吳春城\n668823\t682560\t所以我希望說我想問到各部會可不可以回去盤點一下其實這個勞基法只是一個例子和剛剛這些都是一個例子我們各部會是不是可以盤點自己因應這個壯世代政策能夠修改的法律跟政策\n683803\t701061\t委員我可以補充一下嗎就是您提到好像殘障福利法競爭為身心障礙身權保護法基本上身心障礙它是有一個國際公約定義的它是非常明確的其實它背後概念也一樣嗎你當然你要跟我去做國際喔\n703443\t730029\t還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的這樣的一個操作型概念這是因為我覺得再跟您強調法律要明確性而且要可執行否則它會對社會上現在我們當然現在的壯世代定義是55plus嘛對不對55plus嘛對不對但是它現在有很多的這是方向性原則我覺得細節這個我們都可以再深入討論每一個細節每一個法要怎麼修\n730669\t753262\t可是我現在今天感受到的就是變成未反對而反對你可以跟我找一堆理由嘛就是每一條細節可是現在的修法它也都是很方向性的東西嘛那你說我們定義它也有定義啊我們有一個壯世代社會參與促進方案是76項的工作所以需要跨部會我覺得更需要強力的跨部會去推動\n753902\t754342\t謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請我們何部長委員好部長好是部長我今天搭高鐵上來的時候啊我左前方坐著徐乃琳碰到徐乃琳了部長知道徐乃琳是誰嗎我知道那你覺得我遇到徐乃琳呢我應該要敬老禮讓這個靠窗的位置給她嗎\n所以這就為什麼乃哥的敬老卡掉了他說讓他覺得很難堪啊\n他說其實原因很簡單,就是我們所謂的這個近老族群,中高齡族群的刻板印象。你常常用這個講,他總覺得自己身心都漸漸地邁向衰老,好像對人生和這個社會開始失去了貢獻能力。\n但是我想問部長我們在看乃哥主持的節目都很有活力很幽默、風趣甚至我覺得他比我這30幾歲的人更有創意更顯得年輕所以部長\n這樣子的情況其實我們也可以常常看到有一些新聞報導媒體就五十幾歲的事件我都在介紹五十幾歲的人就會說半白老翁 對不對有這狀況對不對所以部長我就說這不就是為什麼我們要訂出這個壯世代最重要的原因嗎消除年齡的歧視呢是不是\n我剛剛報告有講過這壯世代是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念這我們是支持的對可是要上綱為法律這有待商榷好部長部長還有我們在場所有的官員我想請問你知道現在的身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是叫什麼嗎你知道嗎現在身心障礙權益保障法之前的名稱是什麼\n就是委員秀出來的殘障福利法對嘛 對不對所以那你難道要當初說這樣子立個法是有問題的嗎但現在大家都知道喔殘障這兩個字是歧視嘛所以這部法在民國86年就改名為身心障礙者保護法後來連保護這兩個字也改為權益保障\n部長,我們在民國86年就知道要把這個產障改為身心障礙為何到了民國113年我們還在法規名稱上心態上對長者歧視呢?\n委員 這不是說不改名稱 這個法律改名稱是要很嚴謹的定義啦當然啦 但是我們在講這是一個guideline 是一個指導原則嘛因為法律要明確性而且要可執行 所以首先我們所以壯世代的定義 剛剛你也聽到爭論挺多我想 對 但是我們今天在這裡也說了 來討論 然後什麼公聽會未來要怎麼做 其實\n如果認為還有不夠的地方還要討論的地方我們也都予以尊重我們可以再來努力但是我覺得這個東西其實這個就是一個很重要的概念所以我這裡還是要重申為什麼這件事情重要所以我覺得首先我剛剛講的這種地方是存在在我們社會的每個角落都有這個問題你如果政府沒有一起用法令去推動去改善這個人民腦袋中的關鍵的話\n你現在搞再多其實你看到剛剛說很多委員都在說為什麼做不好很多的你說要促進中高齡就業為什麼做不好這都是有這個因素存在喔都是有的所以我也想要說一件事情就是\n其實各部會也回應軍政同方向那現在突然就是覺得好像有很大的問題我覺得這可以大家可以來好好討論一下那所以呢我想要講的事情就是部長中高齡者高齡者就業促進法這個法名稱\n我想要問當初也是用這個年齡去做定義然後那是不是可以用我意思是說這東西當然可以再去討論啦但是就是基本上要去去化這個歧視的概念當然對啦其實我一直也在思考喔究竟要怎麼做其實我們國人的不健康餘命是8年不健康餘命那為什麼北歐是兩個禮拜\n我覺得這真的是應該要好好的去思考你說這個東西的定義或是要不要推動這件事情其實這個非常的重要而且你說討論不夠嗎其實我看行政院的壯世代跨部會的小組有13部會參與共同推動64項計畫公聽會有8次然後長這個全程參與\n所以現在需要一個立法的來協助來推動這樣前瞻的規劃那其實我要再講回到這個其實我們上次就有討論到這件事嘛中高齡的這個中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法那所有的勞動部就業平等概括調查\n職場歧視與年齡歧視占比最高。夜市一月三的調查也是說中高齡就業促進法上路之後57%的人感覺到無助於改善被歧視的狀況遠見雜誌的調查也說83%的民眾感受到年齡差別待遇我想這就是我們實質在存在的地方其實今天各部會\n⋯⋯⋯\n﹖廖偉翔﹖\n不一定要為了反對而反對有很多細節大家可以討論各部會要怎麼做可以討論但我覺得現在就是我們很急迫的事情就是其實你們成立了過去的少子化辦公室等等其實在面對人口結構的變異產業跟這個勞動政策傾斜如果我們再不趕快做好這個整體的規劃現在的各種問題包括少子化產業經濟就會像未爆蛋一樣可能在某一個時刻就會爆炸所以少子化議題也談了十幾年\n但少子化不但沒解決反而越來越嚴重剛剛我看到也有委員講很多說我們長照投入多少錢一千億多少錢的可是我還是回到剛剛講的我們的不健康餘命也沒改善沒改善多少所以你們到底要不要用創新的方式或是這樣的方式其實也不是說什麼各國全世界沒有其他人定義這件事情難道我們台灣這個極速\n創造這個超高齡社會這個少子化的問題難道我們不能夠創新嗎難道我們不能夠有不同的思維來推動打破嗎不是要讓世界看到台灣嗎我覺得壯世代也是一個很好讓世界看到台灣的一個政策啊我覺得這講起來我出去都覺得很驕傲而且我在地方上講啊很多長輩啊就覺得這個對他們來講是很有重要意義啊其實我們去在地方上跑啊你去參加什麼關懷據點啊或者長青學院其實這些願意出來的人\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n他們都願意出來可是我要告訴你另外一個角度現在雖然在宣稱什麼我們關懷據點長青學院越來越多其實這還是這樣子的人口這樣子年齡人口的很小一部分\n還是有很多人看不到這就是為什麼政府要帶頭去推動要讓媒體各個層面去改觀而且說真的現在的他這個法的也算是一個方向原則大政策導向原則也沒有所謂利益的問題剛剛我也尊重各個委員提到了什麼叫這個產業等等的問題我覺得這未來都可以細節去討論可是這個大方向一定要確定我覺得這大方向真的是非常的好而且對我年輕人來講年輕世代來講有什麼好\n現在年輕世代在分子上面分母我們要扛很多3點多我今天看報告3點多嘛未來是要變得1比1啊那這時候怎麼辦我們當然要把分母把這些這個55歲以上年齡人口的人拉下來變成分子嘛這些人都還是有很多的這個價值可以創造的\n所以我想要說其實現在的這部分我們剛講到這一切已經在我們的各個層面浮現了而且在台灣是惡性的螺旋少子化和超高齡這問題只有不斷的擴大所以如果再不解決它一直以來就是這個國安問題所以我希望各黨派真的秉出這個旗艦這個是全台灣我們國家面對的\n而且憑良心講各部會回應也都有這個軍認同我看到那個報告裡面大家有多覺得認同這個方向啊那到底呢我們是不是要好好的我們可以去討論各個細節但是我覺得這個大方向真的大家要努力的推動不要因為政黨的問題因為目前為止所有你不管是這個我上次還問你說那你要怎麼消除這個所有的參與對於這個中高齡者的歧視問題\n﹚廖偉翔\n⋯⋯⋯\n議員吳春城\n所以我希望說我想問到各部會可不可以回去盤點一下其實這個勞基法只是一個例子和剛剛這些都是一個例子我們各部會是不是可以盤點自己因應這個壯世代政策能夠修改的法律跟政策\n委員我可以補充一下嗎就是您提到好像殘障福利法競爭為身心障礙身權保護法基本上身心障礙它是有一個國際公約定義的它是非常明確的其實它背後概念也一樣嗎你當然你要跟我去做國際喔\n還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的這樣的一個操作型概念這是因為我覺得再跟您強調法律要明確性而且要可執行否則它會對社會上現在我們當然現在的壯世代定義是55plus嘛對不對55plus嘛對不對但是它現在有很多的這是方向性原則我覺得細節這個我們都可以再深入討論每一個細節每一個法要怎麼修\n可是我現在今天感受到的就是變成未反對而反對你可以跟我找一堆理由嘛就是每一條細節可是現在的修法它也都是很方向性的東西嘛那你說我們定義它也有定義啊我們有一個壯世代社會參與促進方案是76項的工作所以需要跨部會我覺得更需要強力的跨部會去推動\n謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.882 --> 00:03.723\n謝謝主席有請我們何部長委員好部長好是部長我今天搭高鐵上來的時候啊我左前方坐著徐乃琳碰到徐乃琳了部長知道徐乃琳是誰嗎我知道那你覺得我遇到徐乃琳呢我應該要敬老禮讓這個靠窗的位置給她嗎\n\n00:31.511 --> 00:33.711\n所以這就為什麼乃哥的敬老卡掉了他說讓他覺得很難堪啊\n\n01:00.700 --> 01:16.885\n他說其實原因很簡單,就是我們所謂的這個近老族群,中高齡族群的刻板印象。你常常用這個講,他總覺得自己身心都漸漸地邁向衰老,好像對人生和這個社會開始失去了貢獻能力。\n\n01:17.935 --> 01:30.390\n但是我想問部長我們在看乃哥主持的節目都很有活力很幽默、風趣甚至我覺得他比我這30幾歲的人更有創意更顯得年輕所以部長\n\n01:32.137 --> 01:54.188\n這樣子的情況其實我們也可以常常看到有一些新聞報導媒體就五十幾歲的事件我都在介紹五十幾歲的人就會說半白老翁對不對有這狀況對不對所以部長我就說這不就是為什麼我們要訂出這個壯世代最重要的原因嗎消除年齡的歧視呢是不是\n\n01:55.513 --> 02:14.750\n我剛剛報告有講過這壯世代是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念這我們是支持的對可是要上綱為法律這有待商榷好部長部長還有我們在場所有的官員我想請問你知道現在的身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是叫什麼嗎你知道嗎現在身心障礙權益保障法之前的名稱是什麼\n\n02:21.737 --> 02:39.451\n就是委員秀出來的殘障福利法對嘛對不對所以那你難道要當初說這樣子立個法是有問題的嗎但現在大家都知道喔殘障這兩個字是歧視嘛所以這部法在民國86年就改名為身心障礙者保護法後來連保護這兩個字也改為權益保障\n\n02:42.878 --> 02:54.013\n部長,我們在民國86年就知道要把這個產障改為身心障礙為何到了民國113年我們還在法規名稱上心態上對長者歧視呢?\n\n02:55.193 --> 03:19.784\n委員這不是說不改名稱這個法律改名稱是要很嚴謹的定義啦當然啦但是我們在講這是一個guideline是一個指導原則嘛因為法律要明確性而且要可執行所以首先我們所以壯世代的定義剛剛你也聽到爭論挺多我想對但是我們今天在這裡也說了來討論然後什麼公聽會未來要怎麼做其實\n\n03:20.504 --> 03:47.194\n如果認為還有不夠的地方還要討論的地方我們也都予以尊重我們可以再來努力但是我覺得這個東西其實這個就是一個很重要的概念所以我這裡還是要重申為什麼這件事情重要所以我覺得首先我剛剛講的這種地方是存在在我們社會的每個角落都有這個問題你如果政府沒有一起用法令去推動去改善這個人民腦袋中的關鍵的話\n\n03:48.374 --> 04:03.767\n你現在搞再多其實你看到剛剛說很多委員都在說為什麼做不好很多的你說要促進中高齡就業為什麼做不好這都是有這個因素存在喔都是有的所以我也想要說一件事情就是\n\n04:06.027 --> 04:24.272\n其實各部會也回應軍政同方向那現在突然就是覺得好像有很大的問題我覺得這可以大家可以來好好討論一下那所以呢我想要講的事情就是部長中高齡者高齡者就業促進法這個法名稱\n\n04:25.672 --> 04:48.490\n我想要問當初也是用這個年齡去做定義然後那是不是可以用我意思是說這東西當然可以再去討論啦但是就是基本上要去去化這個歧視的概念當然對啦其實我一直也在思考喔究竟要怎麼做其實我們國人的不健康餘命是8年不健康餘命那為什麼北歐是兩個禮拜\n\n04:51.239 --> 05:07.249\n我覺得這真的是應該要好好的去思考你說這個東西的定義或是要不要推動這件事情其實這個非常的重要而且你說討論不夠嗎其實我看行政院的壯世代跨部會的小組有13部會參與共同推動64項計畫公聽會有8次然後長這個全程參與\n\n05:13.674 --> 05:30.807\n所以現在需要一個立法的來協助來推動這樣前瞻的規劃那其實我要再講回到這個其實我們上次就有討論到這件事嘛中高齡的這個中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法那所有的勞動部就業平等概括調查\n\n05:32.708 --> 05:53.825\n職場歧視與年齡歧視占比最高。夜市一月三的調查也是說中高齡就業促進法上路之後57%的人感覺到無助於改善被歧視的狀況遠見雜誌的調查也說83%的民眾感受到年齡差別待遇我想這就是我們實質在存在的地方其實今天各部會\n\n06:11.101 --> 06:11.241\n﹖廖偉翔﹖\n\n06:30.723 --> 06:58.410\n不一定要為了反對而反對有很多細節大家可以討論各部會要怎麼做可以討論但我覺得現在就是我們很急迫的事情就是其實你們成立了過去的少子化辦公室等等其實在面對人口結構的變異產業跟這個勞動政策傾斜如果我們再不趕快做好這個整體的規劃現在的各種問題包括少子化產業經濟就會像未爆蛋一樣可能在某一個時刻就會爆炸所以少子化議題也談了十幾年\n\n07:01.097 --> 07:26.194\n但少子化不但沒解決反而越來越嚴重剛剛我看到也有委員講很多說我們長照投入多少錢一千億多少錢的可是我還是回到剛剛講的我們的不健康餘命也沒改善沒改善多少所以你們到底要不要用創新的方式或是這樣的方式其實也不是說什麼各國全世界沒有其他人定義這件事情難道我們台灣這個極速\n\n07:28.075 --> 07:56.490\n創造這個超高齡社會這個少子化的問題難道我們不能夠創新嗎難道我們不能夠有不同的思維來推動打破嗎不是要讓世界看到台灣嗎我覺得壯世代也是一個很好讓世界看到台灣的一個政策啊我覺得這講起來我出去都覺得很驕傲而且我在地方上講啊很多長輩啊就覺得這個對他們來講是很有重要意義啊其實我們去在地方上跑啊你去參加什麼關懷據點啊或者長青學院其實這些願意出來的人\n\n08:17.729 --> 08:29.014\n他們都願意出來可是我要告訴你另外一個角度現在雖然在宣稱什麼我們關懷據點長青學院越來越多其實這還是這樣子的人口這樣子年齡人口的很小一部分\n\n08:29.776 --> 08:55.294\n還是有很多人看不到這就是為什麼政府要帶頭去推動要讓媒體各個層面去改觀而且說真的現在的他這個法的也算是一個方向原則大政策導向原則也沒有所謂利益的問題剛剛我也尊重各個委員提到了什麼叫這個產業等等的問題我覺得這未來都可以細節去討論可是這個大方向一定要確定我覺得這大方向真的是非常的好而且對我年輕人來講年輕世代來講有什麼好\n\n08:57.775 --> 09:16.978\n現在年輕世代在分子上面分母我們要扛很多3點多我今天看報告3點多嘛未來是要變得1比1啊那這時候怎麼辦我們當然要把分母把這些這個55歲以上年齡人口的人拉下來變成分子嘛這些人都還是有很多的這個價值可以創造的\n\n09:18.297 --> 09:41.618\n所以我想要說其實現在的這部分我們剛講到這一切已經在我們的各個層面浮現了而且在台灣是惡性的螺旋少子化和超高齡這問題只有不斷的擴大所以如果再不解決它一直以來就是這個國安問題所以我希望各黨派真的秉出這個旗艦這個是全台灣我們國家面對的\n\n09:42.739 --> 10:07.932\n而且憑良心講各部會回應也都有這個軍認同我看到那個報告裡面大家有多覺得認同這個方向啊那到底呢我們是不是要好好的我們可以去討論各個細節但是我覺得這個大方向真的大家要努力的推動不要因為政黨的問題因為目前為止所有你不管是這個我上次還問你說那你要怎麼消除這個所有的參與對於這個中高齡者的歧視問題\n\n10:09.400 --> 10:09.540\n﹚廖偉翔\n\n10:48.277 --> 10:48.457\n議員吳春城\n\n11:08.823 --> 11:22.560\n所以我希望說我想問到各部會可不可以回去盤點一下其實這個勞基法只是一個例子和剛剛這些都是一個例子我們各部會是不是可以盤點自己因應這個壯世代政策能夠修改的法律跟政策\n\n11:23.803 --> 11:41.061\n委員我可以補充一下嗎就是您提到好像殘障福利法競爭為身心障礙身權保護法基本上身心障礙它是有一個國際公約定義的它是非常明確的其實它背後概念也一樣嗎你當然你要跟我去做國際喔\n\n11:43.443 --> 12:10.029\n還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的這樣的一個操作型概念這是因為我覺得再跟您強調法律要明確性而且要可執行否則它會對社會上現在我們當然現在的壯世代定義是55plus嘛對不對55plus嘛對不對但是它現在有很多的這是方向性原則我覺得細節這個我們都可以再深入討論每一個細節每一個法要怎麼修\n\n12:10.669 --> 12:33.262\n可是我現在今天感受到的就是變成未反對而反對你可以跟我找一堆理由嘛就是每一條細節可是現在的修法它也都是很方向性的東西嘛那你說我們定義它也有定義啊我們有一個壯世代社會參與促進方案是76項的工作所以需要跨部會我覺得更需要強力的跨部會去推動\n\n12:33.902 --> 12:34.342\n謝謝廖委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.882,"end":3.723,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們何部長委員好部長好是部長我今天搭高鐵上來的時候啊我左前方坐著徐乃琳碰到徐乃琳了部長知道徐乃琳是誰嗎我知道那你覺得我遇到徐乃琳呢我應該要敬老禮讓這個靠窗的位置給她嗎"},{"start":31.511,"end":33.711,"text":"所以這就為什麼乃哥的敬老卡掉了他說讓他覺得很難堪啊"},{"start":60.7,"end":76.885,"text":"他說其實原因很簡單,就是我們所謂的這個近老族群,中高齡族群的刻板印象。你常常用這個講,他總覺得自己身心都漸漸地邁向衰老,好像對人生和這個社會開始失去了貢獻能力。"},{"start":77.935,"end":90.39,"text":"但是我想問部長我們在看乃哥主持的節目都很有活力很幽默、風趣甚至我覺得他比我這30幾歲的人更有創意更顯得年輕所以部長"},{"start":92.137,"end":114.188,"text":"這樣子的情況其實我們也可以常常看到有一些新聞報導媒體就五十幾歲的事件我都在介紹五十幾歲的人就會說半白老翁 對不對有這狀況對不對所以部長我就說這不就是為什麼我們要訂出這個壯世代最重要的原因嗎消除年齡的歧視呢是不是"},{"start":115.513,"end":134.75,"text":"我剛剛報告有講過這壯世代是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念這我們是支持的對可是要上綱為法律這有待商榷好部長部長還有我們在場所有的官員我想請問你知道現在的身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是叫什麼嗎你知道嗎現在身心障礙權益保障法之前的名稱是什麼"},{"start":141.737,"end":159.451,"text":"就是委員秀出來的殘障福利法對嘛 對不對所以那你難道要當初說這樣子立個法是有問題的嗎但現在大家都知道喔殘障這兩個字是歧視嘛所以這部法在民國86年就改名為身心障礙者保護法後來連保護這兩個字也改為權益保障"},{"start":162.878,"end":174.013,"text":"部長,我們在民國86年就知道要把這個產障改為身心障礙為何到了民國113年我們還在法規名稱上心態上對長者歧視呢?"},{"start":175.193,"end":199.784,"text":"委員 這不是說不改名稱 這個法律改名稱是要很嚴謹的定義啦當然啦 但是我們在講這是一個guideline 是一個指導原則嘛因為法律要明確性而且要可執行 所以首先我們所以壯世代的定義 剛剛你也聽到爭論挺多我想 對 但是我們今天在這裡也說了 來討論 然後什麼公聽會未來要怎麼做 其實"},{"start":200.504,"end":227.194,"text":"如果認為還有不夠的地方還要討論的地方我們也都予以尊重我們可以再來努力但是我覺得這個東西其實這個就是一個很重要的概念所以我這裡還是要重申為什麼這件事情重要所以我覺得首先我剛剛講的這種地方是存在在我們社會的每個角落都有這個問題你如果政府沒有一起用法令去推動去改善這個人民腦袋中的關鍵的話"},{"start":228.374,"end":243.767,"text":"你現在搞再多其實你看到剛剛說很多委員都在說為什麼做不好很多的你說要促進中高齡就業為什麼做不好這都是有這個因素存在喔都是有的所以我也想要說一件事情就是"},{"start":246.027,"end":264.272,"text":"其實各部會也回應軍政同方向那現在突然就是覺得好像有很大的問題我覺得這可以大家可以來好好討論一下那所以呢我想要講的事情就是部長中高齡者高齡者就業促進法這個法名稱"},{"start":265.672,"end":288.49,"text":"我想要問當初也是用這個年齡去做定義然後那是不是可以用我意思是說這東西當然可以再去討論啦但是就是基本上要去去化這個歧視的概念當然對啦其實我一直也在思考喔究竟要怎麼做其實我們國人的不健康餘命是8年不健康餘命那為什麼北歐是兩個禮拜"},{"start":291.239,"end":307.249,"text":"我覺得這真的是應該要好好的去思考你說這個東西的定義或是要不要推動這件事情其實這個非常的重要而且你說討論不夠嗎其實我看行政院的壯世代跨部會的小組有13部會參與共同推動64項計畫公聽會有8次然後長這個全程參與"},{"start":313.674,"end":330.807,"text":"所以現在需要一個立法的來協助來推動這樣前瞻的規劃那其實我要再講回到這個其實我們上次就有討論到這件事嘛中高齡的這個中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法那所有的勞動部就業平等概括調查"},{"start":332.708,"end":353.825,"text":"職場歧視與年齡歧視占比最高。夜市一月三的調查也是說中高齡就業促進法上路之後57%的人感覺到無助於改善被歧視的狀況遠見雜誌的調查也說83%的民眾感受到年齡差別待遇我想這就是我們實質在存在的地方其實今天各部會"},{"start":356.101,"end":371.101,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":371.101,"end":371.241,"text":"﹖廖偉翔﹖"},{"start":390.723,"end":418.41,"text":"不一定要為了反對而反對有很多細節大家可以討論各部會要怎麼做可以討論但我覺得現在就是我們很急迫的事情就是其實你們成立了過去的少子化辦公室等等其實在面對人口結構的變異產業跟這個勞動政策傾斜如果我們再不趕快做好這個整體的規劃現在的各種問題包括少子化產業經濟就會像未爆蛋一樣可能在某一個時刻就會爆炸所以少子化議題也談了十幾年"},{"start":421.097,"end":446.194,"text":"但少子化不但沒解決反而越來越嚴重剛剛我看到也有委員講很多說我們長照投入多少錢一千億多少錢的可是我還是回到剛剛講的我們的不健康餘命也沒改善沒改善多少所以你們到底要不要用創新的方式或是這樣的方式其實也不是說什麼各國全世界沒有其他人定義這件事情難道我們台灣這個極速"},{"start":448.075,"end":476.49,"text":"創造這個超高齡社會這個少子化的問題難道我們不能夠創新嗎難道我們不能夠有不同的思維來推動打破嗎不是要讓世界看到台灣嗎我覺得壯世代也是一個很好讓世界看到台灣的一個政策啊我覺得這講起來我出去都覺得很驕傲而且我在地方上講啊很多長輩啊就覺得這個對他們來講是很有重要意義啊其實我們去在地方上跑啊你去參加什麼關懷據點啊或者長青學院其實這些願意出來的人"},{"start":477.21,"end":497.449,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":497.729,"end":509.014,"text":"他們都願意出來可是我要告訴你另外一個角度現在雖然在宣稱什麼我們關懷據點長青學院越來越多其實這還是這樣子的人口這樣子年齡人口的很小一部分"},{"start":509.776,"end":535.294,"text":"還是有很多人看不到這就是為什麼政府要帶頭去推動要讓媒體各個層面去改觀而且說真的現在的他這個法的也算是一個方向原則大政策導向原則也沒有所謂利益的問題剛剛我也尊重各個委員提到了什麼叫這個產業等等的問題我覺得這未來都可以細節去討論可是這個大方向一定要確定我覺得這大方向真的是非常的好而且對我年輕人來講年輕世代來講有什麼好"},{"start":537.775,"end":556.978,"text":"現在年輕世代在分子上面分母我們要扛很多3點多我今天看報告3點多嘛未來是要變得1比1啊那這時候怎麼辦我們當然要把分母把這些這個55歲以上年齡人口的人拉下來變成分子嘛這些人都還是有很多的這個價值可以創造的"},{"start":558.297,"end":581.618,"text":"所以我想要說其實現在的這部分我們剛講到這一切已經在我們的各個層面浮現了而且在台灣是惡性的螺旋少子化和超高齡這問題只有不斷的擴大所以如果再不解決它一直以來就是這個國安問題所以我希望各黨派真的秉出這個旗艦這個是全台灣我們國家面對的"},{"start":582.739,"end":607.932,"text":"而且憑良心講各部會回應也都有這個軍認同我看到那個報告裡面大家有多覺得認同這個方向啊那到底呢我們是不是要好好的我們可以去討論各個細節但是我覺得這個大方向真的大家要努力的推動不要因為政黨的問題因為目前為止所有你不管是這個我上次還問你說那你要怎麼消除這個所有的參與對於這個中高齡者的歧視問題"},{"start":609.4,"end":609.54,"text":"﹚廖偉翔"},{"start":626.869,"end":647.892,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":648.277,"end":648.457,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":668.823,"end":682.56,"text":"所以我希望說我想問到各部會可不可以回去盤點一下其實這個勞基法只是一個例子和剛剛這些都是一個例子我們各部會是不是可以盤點自己因應這個壯世代政策能夠修改的法律跟政策"},{"start":683.803,"end":701.061,"text":"委員我可以補充一下嗎就是您提到好像殘障福利法競爭為身心障礙身權保護法基本上身心障礙它是有一個國際公約定義的它是非常明確的其實它背後概念也一樣嗎你當然你要跟我去做國際喔"},{"start":703.443,"end":730.029,"text":"還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的這樣的一個操作型概念這是因為我覺得再跟您強調法律要明確性而且要可執行否則它會對社會上現在我們當然現在的壯世代定義是55plus嘛對不對55plus嘛對不對但是它現在有很多的這是方向性原則我覺得細節這個我們都可以再深入討論每一個細節每一個法要怎麼修"},{"start":730.669,"end":753.262,"text":"可是我現在今天感受到的就是變成未反對而反對你可以跟我找一堆理由嘛就是每一條細節可是現在的修法它也都是很方向性的東西嘛那你說我們定義它也有定義啊我們有一個壯世代社會參與促進方案是76項的工作所以需要跨部會我覺得更需要強力的跨部會去推動"},{"start":753.902,"end":754.342,"text":"謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時22分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。部長我今天搭高鐵上來的時候，我左前方坐著徐乃麟，碰到徐乃麟，部長知道徐乃麟是誰嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：你覺得我遇到徐乃麟，我應該要敬老、禮讓這個靠窗的位置給他嗎？要嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：請問委員您怎麼處理？"],["廖委員偉翔：其實我跟你講怎麼樣，我要怎麼說呢？乃哥跟瓜哥其實是很資深的藝人，所以尊賢一點問題都沒有，人家講敬老尊賢，尊賢一點問題都沒有，可是這個敬老聽起來就怪怪的，所以這就是為什麼乃哥的敬老卡掉了，他說讓他覺得很難堪，部長你懂嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：嗯。"],["廖委員偉翔：他說其實原因很簡單，就是我們所謂的敬老族群、中高齡族群的刻板印象，常常用這個講，他總覺得自己身心都漸漸的邁向衰老，好像對人生和這個社會開始失去了貢獻能力，但是我想問部長，我們在看乃哥主持的節目都很有活力，很幽默、風趣，甚至我覺得他比我這個30幾歲的人更有創意、更顯得年輕，所以部長，這樣子的情況，其實我們也可以常常看到，有一些新聞報導、媒體在介紹五十幾歲的人就會說半白老翁啊！對不對？有這個狀況嘛！對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：當然是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，我就說這不就是為什麼我們要定出這個壯世代最重要的原因嗎？消除年齡的歧視，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：我剛剛報告有講過，壯世代是一個反年齡歧視非常好的概念，這我們是支持的，可是要上綱為法律，這有待商榷。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，還有我們在場所有的官員，我想請問，你知道現在身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是叫什麼嗎？你知道嗎？現在的身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：就是委員show出來的殘障福利法。"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！對不對？所以你難道要說當初這樣子立一個法是有問題的嗎？但現在大家都知道，殘障這兩個字是歧視嘛！所以這部法在民國86年就改名為身心障礙者保護法，後來連保護這兩個字也改為權益保障。部長，我們在民國86年就知道要把這個殘障改為身心障礙，為何到了民國113年，我們還在法規名稱上、心態上對長者歧視呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，法律改名稱是要很嚴謹定義啦！委員，那是定義問題……"],["廖委員偉翔：當然啦！但是我們在講這是一個guideline，是一個指導原則嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：因為法律要明確性，而且要可執行，所以壯世代的定義剛剛你也聽到爭論挺多。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是我們今天在這裡也說了，來討論，然後什麼公聽會，未來要怎麼做，其實如果認為還有不夠的地方、還要討論的地方，我們也都予以尊重，我們可以再來努力，但是我覺得這個東西其實就是一個很重要的概念，所以我這裡還是要重申，為什麼這件事情重要？我覺得首先我剛剛講的這種地方，是存在在我們社會的每個角落都有這個問題，如果政府沒有一起用法令去推動，去改善人民腦袋中的關鍵的話，你現在搞再多，其實你看到剛剛很多委員都在說為什麼做不好，很多的你說要促進中高齡就業，為什麼做不好？都是有這個因素存在，都是有的，所以我也想要說一件事情，就是其實各部會也回應均認同方向，現在突然就是覺得好像有很大的問題，我覺得這可以大家來好好討論一下，所以我想要講的事情就是，部長，中高齡者、高齡者就業促進法這個法的名稱，我想要問當初也是用這個年齡去做定義，我的意思是說這東西當然可以再去討論，但就是基本上要去化這個歧視的概念。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：對吧！我一直也在思考究竟要怎麼做，其實我們國人的不健康餘命是8年，為什麼北歐是兩個禮拜？對不對？這真的是應該要好好的去思考，你說這個東西的定義或是要不要推動這件事情，其實這個非常的重要，而且你說討論不夠嗎？其實我看行政院壯世代跨部會的小組，有13部會參與共同推動64項計畫，公聽會有8次，全程參與，對不對？所以現在需要一個立法來協助推動這樣前瞻的規劃。","其實我要再講回來，我們上次就有討論到這件事，中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法，所有勞動部就業平等概況的調查，職場歧視以年齡歧視占比最高，yes123的調查也是說中高齡就業促進法上路之後，57%的人感覺到無助於改善被歧視的狀況；遠見雜誌的調查也說83%的民眾感受到年齡差別待遇，我想這就是我們實實在在存在的地方嘛！","其實今天各部會你們調來的資料，我去算了一下，在這種有一點帶有年齡歧視的，比如老、高齡或是銀髮等等相關的，大概加起來的詞就有39次，所以這也是為什麼需要推動這樣一部法去跨部會一一的去檢討，我剛剛也提了一個過去的殘障福利法變成身心障礙者權益保障法，其實這概念也很類似啊！所以我是覺得這個部分真的是可以不一定要為了反對而反對啦！有很多細節大家可以討論，各部會要怎麼做可以討論，但我覺得現在我們很急迫的事情就是，你們過去成立了少子化辦公室等等，其實在面對人口結構的變異，產業跟勞動政策傾斜，如果我們再不趕快做好整體的規劃，現在的各種問題，包括少子化、產業經濟就會像未爆彈一樣，可能在某一個時刻就會爆炸，所以少子化議題也談了十幾年啊！對不對？但少子化不但沒解決，反而越來越嚴重。剛剛我看到也有委員講很多啊！說我們長照投入了1,000億元、多少錢，可是我還是回到剛剛講的，我們的不健康餘命也沒改善啊！沒改善多少啊！所以你們到底要不要用創新的方式或是這樣的方式，其實也不是說什麼各國、全世界沒有其他人定義這件事情，臺灣急速產生超高齡社會還有少子化的問題，難道我們不能夠創新嗎？難道我們不能夠有不同的思維來推動打破嗎？不是要讓世界看到臺灣嗎？我覺得壯世代也是一個很好讓世界看到臺灣的政策啊！我覺得這講起來我出去都覺得很驕傲，而且我在地方上講，很多長輩就覺得這個對他們來講是很有重要意義啊！我們在地方上跑，去參加什麼關懷據點或者長青學院，這些願意出來的人其實已經很了不起了，我都會給他們拍拍手，然後我就跟他們說你們其實是壯士代，你的年齡要打7折才是你身體的實際年齡，而且從這個觀念裡面去改變他，他很開心，真的啦！你看，我們也有官員點頭嘛！很棒啊！他就願意出來走啊！這個很重要，為什麼這個法重要就是要這樣嘛！對不對？他們都願意出來。","可是我要告訴你另外一個角度喔！現在雖然在宣稱關懷據點、長青學院越來越多，其實這還是這樣年齡人口的很小一部分啊！還是有很多人看不到，這就是為什麼政府要帶頭去推動，要讓媒體、各個層面去改觀啊！而且說真的，現在這個法也算是一個方向原則，大政策導向原則，也沒有所謂利益的問題啊！剛剛我也尊重各個委員有提到產業等等的問題喔！我覺得這未來都可以細節去討論，可是這個大方向一定要確定啦！我覺得這個大方向真的是非常的好，而且對年輕世代來講有什麼好，現在年輕世代在分母，我們要扛很多，三點多啊！我今天看報告三點多嘛！未來是要變成一比一啊！這個時候怎麼辦？我們當然要把分母這些55歲以上年齡人口的人拉下來變成分子嘛！這些人都還是有很多的價值可以創造的，所以，我們剛剛講到這一切已經在我們的各個層面出現了，而且在臺灣是惡性的螺旋，少子化和超高齡的這個問題只有不斷的擴大，所以如果再不解決，它一直以來就是國安問題，我希望各黨派真的摒除歧見，這個是全臺灣我們國家面對的。","而且憑良心講，各部會回應也都均認同，我看到那個報告裡面，大家也都覺得認同這個方向啊！我們可以去討論各個細節，但是我覺得這個大方向真的大家要努力的推動，不要因為政黨的問題，因為目前為止……我上次還問你說你要怎麼消除所有對於中高齡者的歧視問題，其實你在當下也並沒有辦法很好的回答，我知道有很多細節，有戰術、戰略、戰鬥，但是我覺得戰略上這個觀念是很重要的，所以這個部分我一定要再講一次喔！","這就是一個沒有整體性規劃引起，所以外界一直在批評我們的政府常常面對問題，就頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，只處理問題的表象，但是對問題的成因、深刻的概念是沒有辦法去幫忙翻轉的，所以我覺得對於少子化問題，也不單單是衛福部、勞動部，其實這個為什麼要跨這麼多部會，我覺得就是需要有這樣統籌的機制，而且這個統籌機制也必須是去掉這個歧視性的詞句，帶領我們整個社會去翻轉這樣的觀念，包含勞基法，也是工廠法的前身，我覺得有很多東西是要與時俱進，所以各部會可不可以回去盤點一下，其實勞基法只是一個例子，還有剛剛這些都是一個例子，我們各個部會是不是可以盤點自己因應這個壯世代政策能夠修改的法律跟政策？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可以補充一下嗎？就是您提到像殘障福利法晉升為身心障礙者權益保障法，基本上身心障礙它是有一個國際公約定義的，它是非常明確的。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實它背後的概念也一樣，當然你要給我訴諸國際，我覺得是這樣……"],["何部長佩珊：因為壯世代目前還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的操作型概念，我一再跟您強調，法律要明確性，而且要可執行，否則它會對社會上發生影響跟……"],["廖委員偉翔：現在的壯世代定義是55Plus，對不對？55Plus嘛！對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：但現在有很多的政策方向性原則，我覺得我們都可以再深入討論，每一個細節、每一個法要怎麼修，可是我現在感受到的就是變成為反對而反對，你可以跟我找一堆理由嘛！就是每一條細節，可是現在的修法，它也都是很guideline、很方向性的東西嘛！你說你的定義，它也有定義。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，行政院已經在做了，我們有一個壯世代社會參與促進方案，是76項的工作，然後14個部會。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，我覺得更需要強力的跨部會去推動。"],["何部長佩珊：就是說現階段用行政措施比定法律好啦！因為行政措施基本上它可以……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我覺得是這樣，今天你說審查或等等問題，我今天要再次重申，我覺得很多的細節，我們是可以再來討論，可是這個概念和這個觀念其實政府應該可以再更有力道的去處理它。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。","接續請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}}