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{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 511.426, \"end\": 511.867, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"堅\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 511.867, \"end\": 512.027, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 512.027, \"end\": 512.527, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 512.527, \"end\": 512.727, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 512.727, \"end\": 513.907, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 513.907, \"end\": 514.128, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 514.128, \"end\": 514.528, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 514.528, \"end\": 515.068, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 515.068, \"end\": 515.288, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 515.288, \"end\": 515.568, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 515.568, \"end\": 515.828, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 515.828, \"end\": 516.309, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 516.309, \"end\": 516.389, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 516.389, \"end\": 516.429, \"score\": 0.476}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 516.429, \"end\": 516.989, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 516.989, \"end\": 517.109, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 517.109, \"end\": 517.389, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 517.389, \"end\": 517.669, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 517.669, \"end\": 517.889, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 517.889, \"end\": 518.109, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 518.109, \"end\": 518.91, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 518.91, \"end\": 519.19, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 519.19, \"end\": 519.65, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 519.65, \"end\": 519.75, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 519.75, \"end\": 519.77, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 519.77, \"end\": 519.93, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 519.93, \"end\": 519.95, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 519.95, \"end\": 519.97, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,953 --> 00:00:01,896\n公平會的李主委、勞動部的陳次長\n\n2\n00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:46,160\n好三位首長早我想今天我們兩個主題啊特別要謝謝我們主席啊排這個議題當然因為我們也常談過這兩家外賣那個烏柏易跟那個呼賓達那確確實實在整個產業當中啊是給人家感覺當然對新的產業確確實實是對於我們老百姓是很多方便\n\n3\n00:00:46,980 --> 00:00:59,392\n但是在這裡我要特別請教三位首長我現在很納悶的壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你們的看法是什麼來陳部長你先來壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你的看法\n\n4\n00:01:08,140 --> 00:01:34,079\n就我的角度來看的話競爭幾個方面一方面可能會讓效率更好彼此競爭的話效率會更好第二對於消費者的保障可能會更多那如果是壟斷的話當然單方面來定價的話對消費者影響相對大除此之外對於在營運的這些比如說外送員來講的話他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度好來李主委\n\n5\n00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:46,627\n謝偉喔基本上我們連這個壟斷都講聯合壟斷啦就是說兩家以上的這個同業互相好如果這兩家合併以後他以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷\n\n6\n00:01:49,147 --> 00:02:11,200\n如果合併以後它的市佔率像以這個兩家外送平台合併之後會高達八成以上這就是變成一個獨佔那獨佔我們要關鍵獨佔跟壟斷有什麼關係獨佔就是只有它一家所以我們會防止它做這個濫用獨佔地位那有沒有壟斷嘛那壟斷我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭這是在我們\n\n7\n00:02:18,025 --> 00:02:34,199\n這個法律裡面是有不同的規範好那競爭呢競爭就是兩家水平事業彼此針對價格、品質、服務、條件去提供優惠的條件提供有利的條件去吸引消費者這個是競爭好謝謝主委來我們陳次長\n\n8\n00:02:38,804 --> 00:02:42,830\n有關於市場經濟獨佔寡佔壟斷是公平會的權責但是就勞動部而言我們注重勞工的權益保護如果事業單位的主體\n\n9\n00:02:54,828 --> 00:03:22,968\n獨佔壟斷、聯合壟斷或寡佔的情況對於從業人員的一家能力或選擇工作的自由在A平台、B平台、C平台的選擇自由就會相對的受到削減和減弱所以勞動部基本上才會表達意見說如果兩大平台在合併案對於勞工的部分沒有獲得共識有完整的保障之前我們並不建議這樣一個事情的正面發展\n\n10\n00:03:23,288 --> 00:03:42,410\n好謝謝陳智我說實在的啦壟斷就像未來兩家要合併市產佔優利百分之八十幾以上其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點那另外競爭啊勞工才有辦法生存\n\n11\n00:03:43,431 --> 00:04:11,096\n但是你壟斷幾乎沒有公、盟、獨、妻啊講得這麼快我別無險則就只有這一家那當然就是壟斷啦那兩大市場把它合併起來當然就是壟斷所以特別李數位你對於這些公平啊這些種種的產業當然我們要肯定你但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上打所以本席\n\n12\n00:04:12,156 --> 00:04:33,554\n跟我也欽佩我們勞動部極力反對兩家Upenda他們去做合併因為他的問題是合併之後佔了八成的市場所以當然會剝奪我勞工當然會剝奪我消費者所以在這個部分我特別要提醒\n\n13\n00:04:34,235 --> 00:04:50,248\n我們李主委這個部分你們為了公平而不要做不公平的合併的核准這個特別我們要拜託我們李主委下情上打我相信每一個人每一個消費者\n\n14\n00:04:51,869 --> 00:05:08,597\n競爭他們贊成但是壟斷他們極力去反對所以在這個部分李主委今天邀請你來只要把下情上打的意見也就是老百姓的名義給你們去做參考不要因為合併\n\n15\n00:05:10,678 --> 00:05:39,176\n抵不過外商的力道你們就去做妥協這樣的話對我們台灣的消費者是不公平的委員我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量那一切都是依據法律的這個很好但是因為我很怕喔政務官每一次跟在議事殿堂講的話跟他做的是不一樣那我要勉勵我們李主委公平\n\n16\n00:05:40,197 --> 00:06:04,382\n委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位我不希望保障這些公平的起見當中去向任何一個壓力而低頭來損壞台灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制這個部分我要特別拜託我們主委一定要挺得住\n\n17\n00:06:06,022 --> 00:06:27,992\n這樣才有辦法保護我們所有所有的消費者這一點主委做得到吧沒有問題原來我們這都不是因為各種壓力而是本於我們的專業知識我們的法令本於職權獨立做決定主委我要提醒你這都是有錄音錄影的好不好好那這個部分主委你請回來來部長\n\n18\n00:06:32,267 --> 00:06:40,900\n我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆哲、趙薇也談過的大刻印的這些短缺的問題事實上來講誰都不願意見到這個問題但是這個問題啊一定要非解決\n\n19\n00:06:48,170 --> 00:06:54,876\n並非只有延到65歲延到68歲就可以解決不是這樣剛剛講過的薪資的問題勞力的問題根據我們這個勞花署所統計陳次長應該要知道你看看喔從1月到7月喔\n\n20\n00:07:09,727 --> 00:07:24,296\n他大客車總共1891件的車禍當中造成25個人死亡、2000多人受傷這代表什麼?這代表他是過勞的\n\n21\n00:07:25,797 --> 00:07:52,439\n他不是不休息而是沒有人來開但是你沒有人來開你不能說因為這樣子就會中斷所以這個問題部長因為我一向寄望你在台灣的建設方面你要做非常大的貢獻但是改革的部分這個你也要用一點心因為你年輕未來是有前瞻性所以\n\n22\n00:07:53,160 --> 00:08:10,336\n彼此之間立法院給你的溝通很快就可以但是把它不要像過去很多這些政務官答應立法院但是回去以後做的並非是答應之事所以我希望還是要勉勵這個問題\n\n23\n00:08:12,358 --> 00:08:39,970\n要很用心的去解決那另外當然因為人員缺少是事實但是如何去促進這些可以幫助這些人才方這個部分要拜託部長還有拜託我們司長還有我們公務局那我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件的當中不要過過與可否好不好所以這個要再度拜託我們部長好不好好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n953\t1896\t公平會的李主委、勞動部的陳次長\n16800\t46160\t好 三位首長早我想今天我們兩個主題啊特別要謝謝我們主席啊排這個議題當然 因為我們也常談過這兩家外賣那個烏柏易跟那個呼賓達那確確實實在整個產業當中啊是給人家感覺當然對新的產業確確實實是對於我們老百姓是很多方便\n46980\t59392\t但是在這裡我要特別請教三位首長我現在很納悶的壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你們的看法是什麼來陳部長你先來壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你的看法\n68140\t94079\t就我的角度來看的話競爭幾個方面一方面可能會讓效率更好彼此競爭的話效率會更好第二對於消費者的保障可能會更多那如果是壟斷的話當然單方面來定價的話對消費者影響相對大除此之外對於在營運的這些比如說外送員來講的話他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度好來李主委\n95159\t106627\t謝偉喔 基本上我們連這個壟斷都講聯合壟斷啦就是說兩家以上的這個同業互相好 如果這兩家合併以後他以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷\n109147\t131200\t如果合併以後它的市佔率像以這個兩家外送平台合併之後會高達八成以上這就是變成一個獨佔那獨佔我們要關鍵獨佔跟壟斷有什麼關係獨佔就是只有它一家所以我們會防止它做這個濫用獨佔地位那有沒有壟斷嘛那壟斷我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭這是在我們\n138025\t154199\t這個法律裡面是有不同的規範好 那競爭呢競爭就是兩家水平事業彼此針對價格、品質、服務、條件去提供優惠的條件提供有利的條件去吸引消費者這個是競爭好 謝謝主委 來我們陳次長\n158804\t162830\t有關於市場經濟獨佔寡佔壟斷是公平會的權責但是就勞動部而言我們注重勞工的權益保護如果事業單位的主體\n174828\t202968\t獨佔壟斷、聯合壟斷或寡佔的情況對於從業人員的一家能力或選擇工作的自由在A平台、B平台、C平台的選擇自由就會相對的受到削減和減弱所以勞動部基本上才會表達意見說如果兩大平台在合併案對於勞工的部分沒有獲得共識有完整的保障之前我們並不建議這樣一個事情的正面發展\n203288\t222410\t好 謝謝陳智我說實在的啦壟斷就像未來兩家要合併市產佔優利百分之八十幾以上其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點那另外競爭啊勞工才有辦法生存\n223431\t251096\t但是你壟斷幾乎沒有公、盟、獨、妻啊講得這麼快我別無險則就只有這一家那當然就是壟斷啦那兩大市場把它合併起來當然就是壟斷所以特別李數位你對於這些公平啊這些種種的產業當然我們要肯定你但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上打所以本席\n252156\t273554\t跟我也欽佩我們勞動部極力反對兩家Upenda他們去做合併因為他的問題是合併之後佔了八成的市場所以當然會剝奪我勞工當然會剝奪我消費者所以在這個部分我特別要提醒\n274235\t290248\t我們李主委這個部分你們為了公平而不要做不公平的合併的核准這個特別我們要拜託我們李主委下情上打我相信每一個人每一個消費者\n291869\t308597\t競爭他們贊成但是壟斷他們極力去反對所以在這個部分李主委今天邀請你來只要把下情上打的意見也就是老百姓的名義給你們去做參考不要因為合併\n310678\t339176\t抵不過外商的力道你們就去做妥協這樣的話對我們台灣的消費者是不公平的委員我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量那一切都是依據法律的這個很好但是因為我很怕喔政務官每一次跟在議事殿堂講的話跟他做的是不一樣那我要勉勵我們李主委公平\n340197\t364382\t委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位我不希望保障這些公平的起見當中去向任何一個壓力而低頭來損壞台灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制這個部分我要特別拜託我們主委一定要挺得住\n366022\t387992\t這樣才有辦法保護我們所有所有的消費者這一點主委做得到吧沒有問題原來我們這都不是因為各種壓力而是本於我們的專業知識我們的法令本於職權獨立做決定主委我要提醒你這都是有錄音錄影的好不好好那這個部分主委你請回來來部長\n392267\t400900\t我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆哲、趙薇也談過的大刻印的這些短缺的問題事實上來講誰都不願意見到這個問題但是這個問題啊一定要非解決\n408170\t414876\t並非只有延到65歲延到68歲就可以解決不是這樣剛剛講過的薪資的問題勞力的問題根據我們這個勞花署所統計陳次長應該要知道你看看喔從1月到7月喔\n429727\t444296\t他大客車總共1891件的車禍當中造成25個人死亡、2000多人受傷這代表什麼?這代表他是過勞的\n445797\t472439\t他不是不休息而是沒有人來開但是你沒有人來開你不能說因為這樣子就會中斷所以這個問題部長因為我一向寄望你在台灣的建設方面你要做非常大的貢獻但是改革的部分這個你也要用一點心因為你年輕未來是有前瞻性所以\n473160\t490336\t彼此之間立法院給你的溝通很快就可以但是把它不要像過去很多這些政務官答應立法院但是回去以後做的並非是答應之事所以我希望還是要勉勵這個問題\n492358\t519970\t要很用心的去解決那另外當然因為人員缺少是事實但是如何去促進這些可以幫助這些人才方這個部分要拜託部長還有拜託我們司長還有我們公務局那我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件的當中不要過過與可否好不好所以這個要再度拜託我們部長好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"公平會的李主委、勞動部的陳次長\n好 三位首長早我想今天我們兩個主題啊特別要謝謝我們主席啊排這個議題當然 因為我們也常談過這兩家外賣那個烏柏易跟那個呼賓達那確確實實在整個產業當中啊是給人家感覺當然對新的產業確確實實是對於我們老百姓是很多方便\n但是在這裡我要特別請教三位首長我現在很納悶的壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你們的看法是什麼來陳部長你先來壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你的看法\n就我的角度來看的話競爭幾個方面一方面可能會讓效率更好彼此競爭的話效率會更好第二對於消費者的保障可能會更多那如果是壟斷的話當然單方面來定價的話對消費者影響相對大除此之外對於在營運的這些比如說外送員來講的話他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度好來李主委\n謝偉喔 基本上我們連這個壟斷都講聯合壟斷啦就是說兩家以上的這個同業互相好 如果這兩家合併以後他以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷\n如果合併以後它的市佔率像以這個兩家外送平台合併之後會高達八成以上這就是變成一個獨佔那獨佔我們要關鍵獨佔跟壟斷有什麼關係獨佔就是只有它一家所以我們會防止它做這個濫用獨佔地位那有沒有壟斷嘛那壟斷我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭這是在我們\n這個法律裡面是有不同的規範好 那競爭呢競爭就是兩家水平事業彼此針對價格、品質、服務、條件去提供優惠的條件提供有利的條件去吸引消費者這個是競爭好 謝謝主委 來我們陳次長\n有關於市場經濟獨佔寡佔壟斷是公平會的權責但是就勞動部而言我們注重勞工的權益保護如果事業單位的主體\n獨佔壟斷、聯合壟斷或寡佔的情況對於從業人員的一家能力或選擇工作的自由在A平台、B平台、C平台的選擇自由就會相對的受到削減和減弱所以勞動部基本上才會表達意見說如果兩大平台在合併案對於勞工的部分沒有獲得共識有完整的保障之前我們並不建議這樣一個事情的正面發展\n好 謝謝陳智我說實在的啦壟斷就像未來兩家要合併市產佔優利百分之八十幾以上其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點那另外競爭啊勞工才有辦法生存\n但是你壟斷幾乎沒有公、盟、獨、妻啊講得這麼快我別無險則就只有這一家那當然就是壟斷啦那兩大市場把它合併起來當然就是壟斷所以特別李數位你對於這些公平啊這些種種的產業當然我們要肯定你但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上打所以本席\n跟我也欽佩我們勞動部極力反對兩家Upenda他們去做合併因為他的問題是合併之後佔了八成的市場所以當然會剝奪我勞工當然會剝奪我消費者所以在這個部分我特別要提醒\n我們李主委這個部分你們為了公平而不要做不公平的合併的核准這個特別我們要拜託我們李主委下情上打我相信每一個人每一個消費者\n競爭他們贊成但是壟斷他們極力去反對所以在這個部分李主委今天邀請你來只要把下情上打的意見也就是老百姓的名義給你們去做參考不要因為合併\n抵不過外商的力道你們就去做妥協這樣的話對我們台灣的消費者是不公平的委員我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量那一切都是依據法律的這個很好但是因為我很怕喔政務官每一次跟在議事殿堂講的話跟他做的是不一樣那我要勉勵我們李主委公平\n委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位我不希望保障這些公平的起見當中去向任何一個壓力而低頭來損壞台灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制這個部分我要特別拜託我們主委一定要挺得住\n這樣才有辦法保護我們所有所有的消費者這一點主委做得到吧沒有問題原來我們這都不是因為各種壓力而是本於我們的專業知識我們的法令本於職權獨立做決定主委我要提醒你這都是有錄音錄影的好不好好那這個部分主委你請回來來部長\n我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆哲、趙薇也談過的大刻印的這些短缺的問題事實上來講誰都不願意見到這個問題但是這個問題啊一定要非解決\n並非只有延到65歲延到68歲就可以解決不是這樣剛剛講過的薪資的問題勞力的問題根據我們這個勞花署所統計陳次長應該要知道你看看喔從1月到7月喔\n他大客車總共1891件的車禍當中造成25個人死亡、2000多人受傷這代表什麼?這代表他是過勞的\n他不是不休息而是沒有人來開但是你沒有人來開你不能說因為這樣子就會中斷所以這個問題部長因為我一向寄望你在台灣的建設方面你要做非常大的貢獻但是改革的部分這個你也要用一點心因為你年輕未來是有前瞻性所以\n彼此之間立法院給你的溝通很快就可以但是把它不要像過去很多這些政務官答應立法院但是回去以後做的並非是答應之事所以我希望還是要勉勵這個問題\n要很用心的去解決那另外當然因為人員缺少是事實但是如何去促進這些可以幫助這些人才方這個部分要拜託部長還有拜託我們司長還有我們公務局那我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件的當中不要過過與可否好不好所以這個要再度拜託我們部長好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.953 --> 00:01.896\n公平會的李主委、勞動部的陳次長\n\n00:16.800 --> 00:46.160\n好三位首長早我想今天我們兩個主題啊特別要謝謝我們主席啊排這個議題當然因為我們也常談過這兩家外賣那個烏柏易跟那個呼賓達那確確實實在整個產業當中啊是給人家感覺當然對新的產業確確實實是對於我們老百姓是很多方便\n\n00:46.980 --> 00:59.392\n但是在這裡我要特別請教三位首長我現在很納悶的壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你們的看法是什麼來陳部長你先來壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你的看法\n\n01:08.140 --> 01:34.079\n就我的角度來看的話競爭幾個方面一方面可能會讓效率更好彼此競爭的話效率會更好第二對於消費者的保障可能會更多那如果是壟斷的話當然單方面來定價的話對消費者影響相對大除此之外對於在營運的這些比如說外送員來講的話他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度好來李主委\n\n01:35.159 --> 01:46.627\n謝偉喔基本上我們連這個壟斷都講聯合壟斷啦就是說兩家以上的這個同業互相好如果這兩家合併以後他以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷\n\n01:49.147 --> 02:11.200\n如果合併以後它的市佔率像以這個兩家外送平台合併之後會高達八成以上這就是變成一個獨佔那獨佔我們要關鍵獨佔跟壟斷有什麼關係獨佔就是只有它一家所以我們會防止它做這個濫用獨佔地位那有沒有壟斷嘛那壟斷我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭這是在我們\n\n02:18.025 --> 02:34.199\n這個法律裡面是有不同的規範好那競爭呢競爭就是兩家水平事業彼此針對價格、品質、服務、條件去提供優惠的條件提供有利的條件去吸引消費者這個是競爭好謝謝主委來我們陳次長\n\n02:38.804 --> 02:42.830\n有關於市場經濟獨佔寡佔壟斷是公平會的權責但是就勞動部而言我們注重勞工的權益保護如果事業單位的主體\n\n02:54.828 --> 03:22.968\n獨佔壟斷、聯合壟斷或寡佔的情況對於從業人員的一家能力或選擇工作的自由在A平台、B平台、C平台的選擇自由就會相對的受到削減和減弱所以勞動部基本上才會表達意見說如果兩大平台在合併案對於勞工的部分沒有獲得共識有完整的保障之前我們並不建議這樣一個事情的正面發展\n\n03:23.288 --> 03:42.410\n好謝謝陳智我說實在的啦壟斷就像未來兩家要合併市產佔優利百分之八十幾以上其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點那另外競爭啊勞工才有辦法生存\n\n03:43.431 --> 04:11.096\n但是你壟斷幾乎沒有公、盟、獨、妻啊講得這麼快我別無險則就只有這一家那當然就是壟斷啦那兩大市場把它合併起來當然就是壟斷所以特別李數位你對於這些公平啊這些種種的產業當然我們要肯定你但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上打所以本席\n\n04:12.156 --> 04:33.554\n跟我也欽佩我們勞動部極力反對兩家Upenda他們去做合併因為他的問題是合併之後佔了八成的市場所以當然會剝奪我勞工當然會剝奪我消費者所以在這個部分我特別要提醒\n\n04:34.235 --> 04:50.248\n我們李主委這個部分你們為了公平而不要做不公平的合併的核准這個特別我們要拜託我們李主委下情上打我相信每一個人每一個消費者\n\n04:51.869 --> 05:08.597\n競爭他們贊成但是壟斷他們極力去反對所以在這個部分李主委今天邀請你來只要把下情上打的意見也就是老百姓的名義給你們去做參考不要因為合併\n\n05:10.678 --> 05:39.176\n抵不過外商的力道你們就去做妥協這樣的話對我們台灣的消費者是不公平的委員我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量那一切都是依據法律的這個很好但是因為我很怕喔政務官每一次跟在議事殿堂講的話跟他做的是不一樣那我要勉勵我們李主委公平\n\n05:40.197 --> 06:04.382\n委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位我不希望保障這些公平的起見當中去向任何一個壓力而低頭來損壞台灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制這個部分我要特別拜託我們主委一定要挺得住\n\n06:06.022 --> 06:27.992\n這樣才有辦法保護我們所有所有的消費者這一點主委做得到吧沒有問題原來我們這都不是因為各種壓力而是本於我們的專業知識我們的法令本於職權獨立做決定主委我要提醒你這都是有錄音錄影的好不好好那這個部分主委你請回來來部長\n\n06:32.267 --> 06:40.900\n我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆哲、趙薇也談過的大刻印的這些短缺的問題事實上來講誰都不願意見到這個問題但是這個問題啊一定要非解決\n\n06:48.170 --> 06:54.876\n並非只有延到65歲延到68歲就可以解決不是這樣剛剛講過的薪資的問題勞力的問題根據我們這個勞花署所統計陳次長應該要知道你看看喔從1月到7月喔\n\n07:09.727 --> 07:24.296\n他大客車總共1891件的車禍當中造成25個人死亡、2000多人受傷這代表什麼?這代表他是過勞的\n\n07:25.797 --> 07:52.439\n他不是不休息而是沒有人來開但是你沒有人來開你不能說因為這樣子就會中斷所以這個問題部長因為我一向寄望你在台灣的建設方面你要做非常大的貢獻但是改革的部分這個你也要用一點心因為你年輕未來是有前瞻性所以\n\n07:53.160 --> 08:10.336\n彼此之間立法院給你的溝通很快就可以但是把它不要像過去很多這些政務官答應立法院但是回去以後做的並非是答應之事所以我希望還是要勉勵這個問題\n\n08:12.358 --> 08:39.970\n要很用心的去解決那另外當然因為人員缺少是事實但是如何去促進這些可以幫助這些人才方這個部分要拜託部長還有拜託我們司長還有我們公務局那我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件的當中不要過過與可否好不好所以這個要再度拜託我們部長好不好好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.953,"end":1.896,"text":"公平會的李主委、勞動部的陳次長"},{"start":16.8,"end":46.16,"text":"好 三位首長早我想今天我們兩個主題啊特別要謝謝我們主席啊排這個議題當然 因為我們也常談過這兩家外賣那個烏柏易跟那個呼賓達那確確實實在整個產業當中啊是給人家感覺當然對新的產業確確實實是對於我們老百姓是很多方便"},{"start":46.98,"end":59.392,"text":"但是在這裡我要特別請教三位首長我現在很納悶的壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你們的看法是什麼來陳部長你先來壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你的看法"},{"start":68.14,"end":94.079,"text":"就我的角度來看的話競爭幾個方面一方面可能會讓效率更好彼此競爭的話效率會更好第二對於消費者的保障可能會更多那如果是壟斷的話當然單方面來定價的話對消費者影響相對大除此之外對於在營運的這些比如說外送員來講的話他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度好來李主委"},{"start":95.159,"end":106.627,"text":"謝偉喔 基本上我們連這個壟斷都講聯合壟斷啦就是說兩家以上的這個同業互相好 如果這兩家合併以後他以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷"},{"start":109.147,"end":131.2,"text":"如果合併以後它的市佔率像以這個兩家外送平台合併之後會高達八成以上這就是變成一個獨佔那獨佔我們要關鍵獨佔跟壟斷有什麼關係獨佔就是只有它一家所以我們會防止它做這個濫用獨佔地位那有沒有壟斷嘛那壟斷我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭這是在我們"},{"start":138.025,"end":154.199,"text":"這個法律裡面是有不同的規範好 那競爭呢競爭就是兩家水平事業彼此針對價格、品質、服務、條件去提供優惠的條件提供有利的條件去吸引消費者這個是競爭好 謝謝主委 來我們陳次長"},{"start":158.804,"end":162.83,"text":"有關於市場經濟獨佔寡佔壟斷是公平會的權責但是就勞動部而言我們注重勞工的權益保護如果事業單位的主體"},{"start":174.828,"end":202.968,"text":"獨佔壟斷、聯合壟斷或寡佔的情況對於從業人員的一家能力或選擇工作的自由在A平台、B平台、C平台的選擇自由就會相對的受到削減和減弱所以勞動部基本上才會表達意見說如果兩大平台在合併案對於勞工的部分沒有獲得共識有完整的保障之前我們並不建議這樣一個事情的正面發展"},{"start":203.288,"end":222.41,"text":"好 謝謝陳智我說實在的啦壟斷就像未來兩家要合併市產佔優利百分之八十幾以上其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點那另外競爭啊勞工才有辦法生存"},{"start":223.431,"end":251.096,"text":"但是你壟斷幾乎沒有公、盟、獨、妻啊講得這麼快我別無險則就只有這一家那當然就是壟斷啦那兩大市場把它合併起來當然就是壟斷所以特別李數位你對於這些公平啊這些種種的產業當然我們要肯定你但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上打所以本席"},{"start":252.156,"end":273.554,"text":"跟我也欽佩我們勞動部極力反對兩家Upenda他們去做合併因為他的問題是合併之後佔了八成的市場所以當然會剝奪我勞工當然會剝奪我消費者所以在這個部分我特別要提醒"},{"start":274.235,"end":290.248,"text":"我們李主委這個部分你們為了公平而不要做不公平的合併的核准這個特別我們要拜託我們李主委下情上打我相信每一個人每一個消費者"},{"start":291.869,"end":308.597,"text":"競爭他們贊成但是壟斷他們極力去反對所以在這個部分李主委今天邀請你來只要把下情上打的意見也就是老百姓的名義給你們去做參考不要因為合併"},{"start":310.678,"end":339.176,"text":"抵不過外商的力道你們就去做妥協這樣的話對我們台灣的消費者是不公平的委員我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量那一切都是依據法律的這個很好但是因為我很怕喔政務官每一次跟在議事殿堂講的話跟他做的是不一樣那我要勉勵我們李主委公平"},{"start":340.197,"end":364.382,"text":"委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位我不希望保障這些公平的起見當中去向任何一個壓力而低頭來損壞台灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制這個部分我要特別拜託我們主委一定要挺得住"},{"start":366.022,"end":387.992,"text":"這樣才有辦法保護我們所有所有的消費者這一點主委做得到吧沒有問題原來我們這都不是因為各種壓力而是本於我們的專業知識我們的法令本於職權獨立做決定主委我要提醒你這都是有錄音錄影的好不好好那這個部分主委你請回來來部長"},{"start":392.267,"end":400.9,"text":"我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆哲、趙薇也談過的大刻印的這些短缺的問題事實上來講誰都不願意見到這個問題但是這個問題啊一定要非解決"},{"start":408.17,"end":414.876,"text":"並非只有延到65歲延到68歲就可以解決不是這樣剛剛講過的薪資的問題勞力的問題根據我們這個勞花署所統計陳次長應該要知道你看看喔從1月到7月喔"},{"start":429.727,"end":444.296,"text":"他大客車總共1891件的車禍當中造成25個人死亡、2000多人受傷這代表什麼?這代表他是過勞的"},{"start":445.797,"end":472.439,"text":"他不是不休息而是沒有人來開但是你沒有人來開你不能說因為這樣子就會中斷所以這個問題部長因為我一向寄望你在台灣的建設方面你要做非常大的貢獻但是改革的部分這個你也要用一點心因為你年輕未來是有前瞻性所以"},{"start":473.16,"end":490.336,"text":"彼此之間立法院給你的溝通很快就可以但是把它不要像過去很多這些政務官答應立法院但是回去以後做的並非是答應之事所以我希望還是要勉勵這個問題"},{"start":492.358,"end":519.97,"text":"要很用心的去解決那另外當然因為人員缺少是事實但是如何去促進這些可以幫助這些人才方這個部分要拜託部長還有拜託我們司長還有我們公務局那我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件的當中不要過過與可否好不好所以這個要再度拜託我們部長好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時44分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["林委員國成：還有公平會李主委、勞動部陳次長。"],["主席：請公平會李主委、勞動部陳次長。"],["林委員國成：三位首長早。今天我們兩個主題，特別要謝謝主席排這個議題，我們長談過這兩家外賣Uber Eats跟foodpanda，在整個產業當中確確實實是給老百姓很方便。但是，在這裡我要特別請教三位首長，我現在很納悶的是壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間，你們的看法是什麼？陳部長先來，壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間，你的看法？"],["陳部長世凱：就我的角度來看，競爭有幾個方面，一方面可能會讓效率更好，彼此競爭的話效率會更好，第二個，對於消費者的保障可能會更多；如果是壟斷的話，當然單方面來定價的話，對消費者影響相對大，除此之外，對於在營運的這些比如外送員，他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度。"],["林委員國成：好，李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員。基本上，我們壟斷都講聯合壟斷，就是說兩家以上的同業互相……"],["林委員國成：好，如果這兩家合併以後，他們以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果合併以後它的市占率，像這兩家外送平臺合併之後會高達八成以上，這就是變成獨占，獨占我們就要關切……"],["林委員國成：獨占跟壟斷有什麼關係？"],["李主任委員鎂：獨占就是只有它一家，所以我們要防止它濫用獨占地位，譬如說它說了算……"],["林委員國成：那有沒有壟斷嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭，這在我們法律裡面是有不同的規範。"],["林委員國成：好，那競爭呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：競爭就是兩家水平事業，彼此針對價格、品質、服務、條件去提供優惠的條件，提供有利的條件去吸引消費者，這是競爭。"],["林委員國成：好。謝謝主委。我們陳次長。"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，有關於市場經濟，當然獨占、寡占、壟斷，這部分是公平會的權責；但是就勞動部而言，我們注重的是勞工的權益保護，如果事業單位的主體有獨占、壟斷、聯合壟斷或者是寡占的情況，對於從業人員的議價能力或者是選擇工作的自由，在A平臺、B平臺、C平臺的選擇自由，就會相對的受到削減和減弱。所以勞動部基本上才會表達意見說，如果兩大平臺在合併案對於勞工的部分沒有獲得共識，在有完整的保障之前，我們並不樂見這樣一個事情的正面發展。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝陳次長。我說實在的，壟斷就像未來兩家要合併，市場占有率百分之八十幾以上，其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點；另外，競爭，勞工才有辦法生存，但是壟斷，幾乎沒有，「孤行獨市」，就是我別無選擇，只有這一家，那當然就是壟斷，兩大市場，把它合併起來，當然就是壟斷。","所以李主委，你對於這些公平，這些種種的產業，我們當然要肯定你，但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上達，所以本席也欽佩勞動部極力反對兩家做合併，因為它的問題是合併之後占了八成的市場，當然會剝奪勞工的權益，當然會剝奪消費者的權益。所以在這個部分，我特別要提醒我們李主委，你們為了公平而不要做不公平合併的核准，這個特別我們要拜託李主委。下情要上達，我相信每一個人，每一個消費者，競爭他們是贊成，但是壟斷他們是極力反對。所以在這個部分，李主委，今天邀請你來，只是要把下情上達的意見，也就是老百姓的民意，給你們去做參考，不要因為抵不過外商的力道，你們就去做妥協，這樣的話，對我們臺灣的消費者是不公平的。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量，一切都會依據法律的規定去處理。"],["林委員國成：很好，但是我很怕政務官每一次在議事殿堂講的話，跟他做的是不一樣。"],["李主任委員鎂：不會。"],["林委員國成：我要勉勵李主委，公平委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位，我不希望在保障這些公平的期間當中，去向任何一個壓力低頭，來損壞臺灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制……"],["李主任委員鎂：不會。"],["林委員國成：這個部分，我要特別拜託主委，一定要挺得住，這樣才有辦法保護我們所有的消費者，這一點主委做得到吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有問題，原來我們就都不是因為各種壓力，而是本於我們的專業知識、我們的法律，本於職權獨立做出決定。"],["林委員國成：好，主委，我要提醒這都是有錄音、錄影的。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["林委員國成：好，主委請回。部長，我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆澤召委也談過的大客運駕駛短缺問題，事實上，誰都不願意見到這個問題，但這個問題一定要解決，而且並非只有65歲延到68歲就可以解決，不是這樣的，剛剛講過的薪資問題、勞力問題，根據我們勞發署的統計，陳次長應該要知道，你看看，從1月到7月，大客車總共1,891件的車禍當中，造成25人死亡，二千多人受傷，這代表什麼？這代表他是過勞的，他不是不休息，而是沒有人來開，但是沒有人來開也不能因為這樣就造成中斷。所以這個問題，部長，我一向冀望你在臺灣的建設方面，要做出非常大的貢獻，但是在改革的部分，這個你也要用一點心，因為你年輕、未來具有前瞻性，所以我們彼此之間，立法院跟你的溝通很快就可以進行，但是不要像過去很多政務官答應了立法院，回去以後做的並非是答應之事，所以我還是要勉勵你，這個問題要很用心地去解決。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：另外，當然人員缺少是事實，但是如何促進、幫助這些人才方，這個部分要拜託部長，還有拜託我們司長，還有我們公路局，我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件不要過於刻薄，好不好？所以這個要再度拜託我們部長，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。接下來有請林沛祥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}}