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\"所以說請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生呢結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來的時候現在部長下來我為什麼直接說要公平會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 529.159, \"end\": 529.279, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 529.279, \"end\": 531.741, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 531.741, \"end\": 531.881, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 531.881, \"end\": 532.002, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 532.002, \"end\": 532.522, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 532.522, \"end\": 532.862, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 532.862, \"end\": 533.123, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 533.123, \"end\": 533.323, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 533.323, \"end\": 533.683, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 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00:01:02,209\n跟委員報告就是今年的一個統計是今年統計對吧對今年統計所以說你剛剛在上面講的這個3000你們說從2020年開始所增的兩三千兩百那是累積累積出來兩三千兩百已經加進去了但是還是不夠不是跟委員報告累積因為有一些部分還在受訓\n\n4\n00:01:02,970 --> 00:01:28,986\n就是說他是就是我們招募進來因為他的就是說受訓他有期間然後取得這個大客車的駕照的話他還有一些經驗的時間的限制所以像今年的缺員的部分今年的招募活動還招募了500多位進來因為這個人數其實看起來是非常的非常的可怕尤其是說如果我們只講說18%如果說國道客運少18%的司機能夠開車的話實質上班次就可能少不只不只18%\n\n5\n00:01:30,507 --> 00:01:54,002\n這其實對於基隆到台北甚至桃園到台北的這個通行主來講是很大是很大的危機而我剛剛在這份報告裡面看到說你們在明年2025年2月28號你們對於這個補助的計畫就會停止對不對那請問你們有新的計畫嗎跟各位報告因為部長也有指示就是說因為招募駕駛的這一個還是不夠所以我們就是說這個明年2月底之後還會持續再辦理\n\n6\n00:01:54,542 --> 00:02:10,841\n我們舊的計畫結束新的還會繼續走因為缺工的問題一定要解決而且會依照這個像這個勞動的基本薪資也調升了所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升因為我會希望說你們會提出來新的計畫就是有關因為真的缺工很嚴重\n\n7\n00:02:11,802 --> 00:02:24,857\n全國非常嚴重的情況之下那我們現在你剛我剛看到說要去找外籍勞工啊還是說去找僑生啊其實某個時候都緩不濟急我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或是跟這些司機們他們談其實他們對這點都有點\n\n8\n00:02:26,559 --> 00:02:53,646\n這一點有點疑慮啦這不是壞事但是來以說一時之間就馬上說我們自己開著大客車的司機如果是外籍人士的話多多少少對民眾的這個觀感來講可能會有些會有些遲疑這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍外籍僑生還是找外籍員工進來倒不如比較務實一點說針對現在能不能讓我們多一點的人來多一點的司機來願意來開這個這個客車尤其是我記得我剛到立法院的時候我就特地辦了一個辦了一個協調會\n\n9\n00:02:55,146 --> 00:03:12,305\n有關這個對於司機對於客運司機能不能讓他們工作環境好一點因為我們很多次我們其實剛剛那個李崑哲我也講到說很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開因為他們接受太多無理的客宿這件事我想局長跟部長部長可能聽過可是局長知道很清楚\n\n10\n00:03:12,785 --> 00:03:36,343\n那我常講說勿妄勿縱也就是說如果說司機的服務品質的確不好那的確要入住懲處但是如果司機的服務品質沒有不好而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候那麻煩客運公司跟公務總區這邊特地要保護這些司機因為他們已經是非常辛苦已經在過勞的情況在開車而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞\n\n11\n00:03:36,983 --> 00:03:42,007\n好那接下來第二個問題有請那個不好意思部長請你再留一下有請這個勞動部的次長\n\n12\n00:03:53,959 --> 00:04:11,330\n委員長部長跟次長其實我這一個有關外送平台的專報告是我請我們主席幫忙排的那其實一排了之後其實就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提說有關他們的需求跟他們的苦衷\n\n13\n00:04:11,810 --> 00:04:26,036\n那我個人還是認為說這個法這個修訂規則因為他們跟我講過很多為什麼會是交通部來辦因為目前來講這只有客貨運輸管理規則可以去幫助到這一塊所以說針對運費的部分\n\n14\n00:04:28,337 --> 00:04:50,495\n對而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員而這些外送員來講我會認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中保障他們權益的基本作為所以我對這個法是給予肯定的不過另外一方面我會在這邊想說請教說部長有沒有機會開公廳會因為這方面有太多還是已經開過因為還沒開過吧\n\n15\n00:04:51,596 --> 00:05:08,778\n報告委員公聽會沒有開過之前呢部裡面有邀請這個業者跟這個工會大家一起來協商但我要求我們的公路局因為未來的定價是五方協商中央政府消費者再加工會然後再加產業的方面的代表\n\n16\n00:05:09,158 --> 00:05:30,886\n大家都想知道發生什麼事這個案子其實已經太多人在關注了而我們在第一線的時候有聽到很多這個不只是外送平台甚至外送業者會跟我講說到底發生什麼事那其實所謂的我當初擔心的事情可能不是只有就是整個事情關於巧麗明目的事情可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明\n\n17\n00:05:31,826 --> 00:05:57,843\n剛開始在4年前的時候他們一單可以收70塊可是4年後可能一單可能收不到40塊的時候難怪外送業者會覺得他們被剝削那這個情況的話其實我為什麼把勞動部次長請上來因為這個問題的話我們如果說要讓這個公式我知道最後面出來會有一個所謂計算公式計算運價的公式要讓這公式能夠透明化讓大家知道這公式存在之外而且讓大家知道說這每一個費用是為什麼而調的\n\n18\n00:05:58,723 --> 00:06:13,891\n我出來他們跟我來我聽得懂什麼是樓層費而且樓層費是有必要的存在這個我認同當初是我了解不夠深但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道因為不是只有這些外送員需要這個事情消費者也要知道這方面的事情\n\n19\n00:06:14,291 --> 00:06:38,102\n我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來大家會先做一個會議會先做一個會議在下週三那下週三大概各方討論的結論我也會再向委員來報告好謝謝謝部長那再來有請這個公平交易委員會的李主委好李主委部長謝謝請問這接下來跟部長比較沒有那個市長還是要留著不好意思\n\n20\n00:06:41,864 --> 00:07:08,985\n委員長因為為什麼問主委因為我在國外很長一段時間國外對於monopoly對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的甚至我記得美國有所謂反托拉斯法但是我在那邊看到的時候其實老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話最會倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員可能最後面只有資本家得利這點主委認同嗎\n\n21\n00:07:09,945 --> 00:07:28,171\n國外對獨佔、壟斷的行為在《競爭法》都會有一些嚴格的管制因為我為什麼會這樣講的原因是這是從美國的法治精神來看當然台灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣但是為什麼這樣講因為當我看到UberEats跟Foodpanda加起來一定超過80%是佔率的時候\n\n22\n00:07:30,154 --> 00:07:58,873\n我們就會覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們需要去關注我現在直接問說目前他們這個merger他們這個訂購的進度到什麼時候這兩家平台來申報結合目前我們在補件的階段補件那現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎我們要補的一些包括今天還有各界的這些關切我們還有需要的一些文件都請他要補齊說明\n\n23\n00:08:00,594 --> 00:08:23,747\n我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講因為老實說如果當這個合併完成的時候其實對於這些外送平台的外送員的溢價空間他們要符合他們自己的公平的權利的溢價空間他們的溢價能力會大幅度的下降因為全台灣就只有一家外送平台\n\n24\n00:08:24,307 --> 00:08:48,519\n變成是說當他如果是這個不合理的議價也好或是是半公開的議價也好變成是說他們的議價空間太少的時候最後面羊毛出來牆身上最後面會變成是消費者受損不是錢上面受損而是沒有人願意去做這個外送的工作那這一點其實反而是幫整個市場從我的觀點來講反而是整個壓縮整個市場的整個市場的發展反而是無法提供到這方面的服務\n\n25\n00:08:49,159 --> 00:09:11,378\n所以說請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生呢結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來的時候現在部長下來我為什麼直接說要公平會\n\n26\n00:09:12,279 --> 00:09:29,000\n因為這些事情其實我不是預設立場而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生的機會的時候我們就必須正視這個問題既然大家覺得Foodpanda跟UberEats這種外送平台對台灣社會是好事對於我們全民是好事的時候但是我們卻知道說這個有壟斷也有可能\n\n27\n00:09:29,380 --> 00:09:57,400\n有可能會造成消費者甚至所有人的方案只有資本家得利的時候我們就必須站出來看一下說是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來製造出來一個合理合法和公平的公式讓整個事情能夠做一個很好解決我想對整個市場的結構競爭的自信以及利害關係人的權益各方面在公平會都會通盤去考量而且我們舉辦的臺北、台中、高雄一覽都舉辦了公聽會對於各界的意見我們都有掌握\n\n28\n00:09:57,500 --> 00:10:17,195\n我很期待說我們在這邊我們最後面看到這個客運這個應該叫做客貨運運輸業規則的修訂最後面是一個相對比較是要一個完好的結果我們知道這是最基本的法這是最基本對他們的權益的保障不然的話他們不會出來說大聲呼籲要這個法而我認同他們的想法\n\n29\n00:10:17,515 --> 00:10:34,030\n但是這些事情上面來講或許應該讓更多人知道尤其是讓這個enduser所謂的一般的消費者知道說其實他們這些外送員我們知道他們辛苦但是我們也要說他們辛苦是有價值的他們辛苦是有代價的這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3660\t9084\t呃謝謝主席有請陳部長跟我們這個交通部陳部長這個公路局的這個陳局長陳國仁局長\n18799\t36608\t部長根據剛剛我看到的資料上面講說是國道客運的缺員人數是772人差不多是將近18%那在地區的在地區的這個在地區的這個市區巴士缺員差不多1443人估計算起來剛剛差不多是總人數的12%我想請問這個數據是什麼時候計算出來的\n43270\t62209\t跟委員報告就是今年的一個統計是今年統計對吧對 今年統計所以說你剛剛在上面講的這個3000你們說從2020年開始所增的兩三千兩百那是累積累積出來兩三千兩百已經加進去了但是還是不夠不是跟委員報告累積因為有一些部分還在受訓\n62970\t88986\t就是說他是就是我們招募進來因為他的就是說受訓他有期間然後取得這個大客車的駕照的話他還有一些經驗的時間的限制所以像今年的缺員的部分今年的招募活動還招募了500多位進來因為這個人數其實看起來是非常的非常的可怕尤其是說如果我們只講說18%如果說國道客運少18%的司機能夠開車的話實質上班次就可能少不只不只18%\n90507\t114002\t這其實對於基隆到台北甚至桃園到台北的這個通行主來講是很大是很大的危機而我剛剛在這份報告裡面看到說你們在明年2025年2月28號你們對於這個補助的計畫就會停止對不對那請問你們有新的計畫嗎跟各位報告因為部長也有指示就是說因為招募駕駛的這一個還是不夠所以我們就是說這個明年2月底之後還會持續再辦理\n114542\t130841\t我們舊的計畫結束新的還會繼續走因為缺工的問題一定要解決而且會依照這個像這個勞動的基本薪資也調升了所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升因為我會希望說你們會提出來新的計畫就是有關因為真的缺工很嚴重\n131802\t144857\t全國非常嚴重的情況之下那我們現在你剛我剛看到說要去找外籍勞工啊還是說去找僑生啊其實某個時候都緩不濟急我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或是跟這些司機們他們談其實他們對這點都有點\n146559\t173646\t這一點有點疑慮啦這不是壞事但是來以說一時之間就馬上說我們自己開著大客車的司機如果是外籍人士的話多多少少對民眾的這個觀感來講可能會有些會有些遲疑這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍外籍僑生還是找外籍員工進來倒不如比較務實一點說針對現在能不能讓我們多一點的人來多一點的司機來願意來開這個這個客車尤其是我記得我剛到立法院的時候我就特地辦了一個辦了一個協調會\n175146\t192305\t有關這個對於司機對於客運司機能不能讓他們工作環境好一點因為我們很多次我們其實剛剛那個李崑哲我也講到說很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開因為他們接受太多無理的客宿這件事我想局長跟部長部長可能聽過可是局長知道很清楚\n192785\t216343\t那我常講說勿妄勿縱也就是說如果說司機的服務品質的確不好那的確要入住懲處但是如果司機的服務品質沒有不好而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候那麻煩客運公司跟公務總區這邊特地要保護這些司機因為他們已經是非常辛苦已經在過勞的情況在開車而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞\n216983\t222007\t好那接下來第二個問題有請那個不好意思部長請你再留一下有請這個勞動部的次長\n233959\t251330\t委員長部長跟次長其實我這一個有關外送平台的專報告是我請我們主席幫忙排的那其實一排了之後其實就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提說有關他們的需求跟他們的苦衷\n251810\t266036\t那我個人還是認為說這個法這個修訂規則因為他們跟我講過很多為什麼會是交通部來辦因為目前來講這只有客貨運輸管理規則可以去幫助到這一塊所以說針對運費的部分\n268337\t290495\t對 而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員而這些外送員來講我會認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中保障他們權益的基本作為所以我對這個法是給予肯定的不過另外一方面我會在這邊想說請教說部長有沒有機會開公廳會因為這方面有太多還是已經開過因為還沒開過吧\n291596\t308778\t報告委員公聽會沒有開過之前呢部裡面有邀請這個業者跟這個工會大家一起來協商但我要求我們的公路局因為未來的定價是五方協商中央政府消費者再加工會然後再加產業的方面的代表\n309158\t330886\t大家都想知道發生什麼事這個案子其實已經太多人在關注了而我們在第一線的時候有聽到很多這個不只是外送平台甚至外送業者會跟我講說到底發生什麼事那其實所謂的我當初擔心的事情可能不是只有就是整個事情關於巧麗明目的事情可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明\n331826\t357843\t剛開始在4年前的時候他們一單可以收70塊可是4年後可能一單可能收不到40塊的時候難怪外送業者會覺得他們被剝削那這個情況的話其實我為什麼把勞動部次長請上來因為這個問題的話我們如果說要讓這個公式我知道最後面出來會有一個所謂計算公式計算運價的公式要讓這公式能夠透明化讓大家知道這公式存在之外而且讓大家知道說這每一個費用是為什麼而調的\n358723\t373891\t我出來他們跟我來我聽得懂什麼是樓層費而且樓層費是有必要的存在這個我認同當初是我了解不夠深但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道因為不是只有這些外送員需要這個事情消費者也要知道這方面的事情\n374291\t398102\t我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來大家會先做一個會議會先做一個會議在下週三那下週三大概各方討論的結論我也會再向委員來報告好 謝謝 謝部長那再來有請這個公平交易委員會的李主委好 李主委部長謝謝 請問這接下來跟部長比較沒有那個市長還是要留著 不好意思\n401864\t428985\t委員長因為為什麼問主委因為我在國外很長一段時間國外對於monopoly對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的甚至我記得美國有所謂反托拉斯法但是我在那邊看到的時候其實老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話最會倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員可能最後面只有資本家得利這點主委認同嗎\n429945\t448171\t國外對獨佔、壟斷的行為在《競爭法》都會有一些嚴格的管制因為我為什麼會這樣講的原因是這是從美國的法治精神來看當然台灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣但是為什麼這樣講因為當我看到Uber Eats跟Foodpanda加起來一定超過80%是佔率的時候\n450154\t478873\t我們就會覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們需要去關注我現在直接問說目前他們這個merger他們這個訂購的進度到什麼時候這兩家平台來申報結合目前我們在補件的階段補件那現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎我們要補的一些包括今天還有各界的這些關切我們還有需要的一些文件都請他要補齊說明\n480594\t503747\t我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講因為老實說如果當這個合併完成的時候其實對於這些外送平台的外送員的溢價空間他們要符合他們自己的公平的權利的溢價空間他們的溢價能力會大幅度的下降因為全台灣就只有一家外送平台\n504307\t528519\t變成是說當他如果是這個不合理的議價也好或是是半公開的議價也好變成是說他們的議價空間太少的時候最後面羊毛出來牆身上最後面會變成是消費者受損不是錢上面受損而是沒有人願意去做這個外送的工作那這一點其實反而是幫整個市場從我的觀點來講反而是整個壓縮整個市場的整個市場的發展反而是無法提供到這方面的服務\n529159\t551378\t所以說請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生呢結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來的時候現在部長下來我為什麼直接說要公平會\n552279\t569000\t因為這些事情其實我不是預設立場而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生的機會的時候我們就必須正視這個問題既然大家覺得Foodpanda跟Uber Eats這種外送平台對台灣社會是好事對於我們全民是好事的時候但是我們卻知道說這個有壟斷也有可能\n569380\t597400\t有可能會造成消費者甚至所有人的方案只有資本家得利的時候我們就必須站出來看一下說是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來製造出來一個合理合法和公平的公式讓整個事情能夠做一個很好解決我想對整個市場的結構競爭的自信以及利害關係人的權益各方面在公平會都會通盤去考量而且我們舉辦的臺北、台中、高雄一覽都舉辦了公聽會對於各界的意見我們都有掌握\n597500\t617195\t我很期待說我們在這邊我們最後面看到這個客運這個應該叫做客貨運運輸業規則的修訂最後面是一個相對比較是要一個完好的結果我們知道這是最基本的法這是最基本對他們的權益的保障不然的話他們不會出來說大聲呼籲要這個法而我認同他們的想法\n617515\t634030\t但是這些事情上面來講或許應該讓更多人知道尤其是讓這個end user所謂的一般的消費者知道說其實他們這些外送員我們知道他們辛苦但是我們也要說他們辛苦是有價值的他們辛苦是有代價的這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會好 謝謝\n","txt":"呃謝謝主席有請陳部長跟我們這個交通部陳部長這個公路局的這個陳局長陳國仁局長\n部長根據剛剛我看到的資料上面講說是國道客運的缺員人數是772人差不多是將近18%那在地區的在地區的這個在地區的這個市區巴士缺員差不多1443人估計算起來剛剛差不多是總人數的12%我想請問這個數據是什麼時候計算出來的\n跟委員報告就是今年的一個統計是今年統計對吧對 今年統計所以說你剛剛在上面講的這個3000你們說從2020年開始所增的兩三千兩百那是累積累積出來兩三千兩百已經加進去了但是還是不夠不是跟委員報告累積因為有一些部分還在受訓\n就是說他是就是我們招募進來因為他的就是說受訓他有期間然後取得這個大客車的駕照的話他還有一些經驗的時間的限制所以像今年的缺員的部分今年的招募活動還招募了500多位進來因為這個人數其實看起來是非常的非常的可怕尤其是說如果我們只講說18%如果說國道客運少18%的司機能夠開車的話實質上班次就可能少不只不只18%\n這其實對於基隆到台北甚至桃園到台北的這個通行主來講是很大是很大的危機而我剛剛在這份報告裡面看到說你們在明年2025年2月28號你們對於這個補助的計畫就會停止對不對那請問你們有新的計畫嗎跟各位報告因為部長也有指示就是說因為招募駕駛的這一個還是不夠所以我們就是說這個明年2月底之後還會持續再辦理\n我們舊的計畫結束新的還會繼續走因為缺工的問題一定要解決而且會依照這個像這個勞動的基本薪資也調升了所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升因為我會希望說你們會提出來新的計畫就是有關因為真的缺工很嚴重\n全國非常嚴重的情況之下那我們現在你剛我剛看到說要去找外籍勞工啊還是說去找僑生啊其實某個時候都緩不濟急我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或是跟這些司機們他們談其實他們對這點都有點\n這一點有點疑慮啦這不是壞事但是來以說一時之間就馬上說我們自己開著大客車的司機如果是外籍人士的話多多少少對民眾的這個觀感來講可能會有些會有些遲疑這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍外籍僑生還是找外籍員工進來倒不如比較務實一點說針對現在能不能讓我們多一點的人來多一點的司機來願意來開這個這個客車尤其是我記得我剛到立法院的時候我就特地辦了一個辦了一個協調會\n有關這個對於司機對於客運司機能不能讓他們工作環境好一點因為我們很多次我們其實剛剛那個李崑哲我也講到說很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開因為他們接受太多無理的客宿這件事我想局長跟部長部長可能聽過可是局長知道很清楚\n那我常講說勿妄勿縱也就是說如果說司機的服務品質的確不好那的確要入住懲處但是如果司機的服務品質沒有不好而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候那麻煩客運公司跟公務總區這邊特地要保護這些司機因為他們已經是非常辛苦已經在過勞的情況在開車而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞\n好那接下來第二個問題有請那個不好意思部長請你再留一下有請這個勞動部的次長\n委員長部長跟次長其實我這一個有關外送平台的專報告是我請我們主席幫忙排的那其實一排了之後其實就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提說有關他們的需求跟他們的苦衷\n那我個人還是認為說這個法這個修訂規則因為他們跟我講過很多為什麼會是交通部來辦因為目前來講這只有客貨運輸管理規則可以去幫助到這一塊所以說針對運費的部分\n對 而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員而這些外送員來講我會認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中保障他們權益的基本作為所以我對這個法是給予肯定的不過另外一方面我會在這邊想說請教說部長有沒有機會開公廳會因為這方面有太多還是已經開過因為還沒開過吧\n報告委員公聽會沒有開過之前呢部裡面有邀請這個業者跟這個工會大家一起來協商但我要求我們的公路局因為未來的定價是五方協商中央政府消費者再加工會然後再加產業的方面的代表\n大家都想知道發生什麼事這個案子其實已經太多人在關注了而我們在第一線的時候有聽到很多這個不只是外送平台甚至外送業者會跟我講說到底發生什麼事那其實所謂的我當初擔心的事情可能不是只有就是整個事情關於巧麗明目的事情可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明\n剛開始在4年前的時候他們一單可以收70塊可是4年後可能一單可能收不到40塊的時候難怪外送業者會覺得他們被剝削那這個情況的話其實我為什麼把勞動部次長請上來因為這個問題的話我們如果說要讓這個公式我知道最後面出來會有一個所謂計算公式計算運價的公式要讓這公式能夠透明化讓大家知道這公式存在之外而且讓大家知道說這每一個費用是為什麼而調的\n我出來他們跟我來我聽得懂什麼是樓層費而且樓層費是有必要的存在這個我認同當初是我了解不夠深但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道因為不是只有這些外送員需要這個事情消費者也要知道這方面的事情\n我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來大家會先做一個會議會先做一個會議在下週三那下週三大概各方討論的結論我也會再向委員來報告好 謝謝 謝部長那再來有請這個公平交易委員會的李主委好 李主委部長謝謝 請問這接下來跟部長比較沒有那個市長還是要留著 不好意思\n委員長因為為什麼問主委因為我在國外很長一段時間國外對於monopoly對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的甚至我記得美國有所謂反托拉斯法但是我在那邊看到的時候其實老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話最會倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員可能最後面只有資本家得利這點主委認同嗎\n國外對獨佔、壟斷的行為在《競爭法》都會有一些嚴格的管制因為我為什麼會這樣講的原因是這是從美國的法治精神來看當然台灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣但是為什麼這樣講因為當我看到Uber Eats跟Foodpanda加起來一定超過80%是佔率的時候\n我們就會覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們需要去關注我現在直接問說目前他們這個merger他們這個訂購的進度到什麼時候這兩家平台來申報結合目前我們在補件的階段補件那現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎我們要補的一些包括今天還有各界的這些關切我們還有需要的一些文件都請他要補齊說明\n我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講因為老實說如果當這個合併完成的時候其實對於這些外送平台的外送員的溢價空間他們要符合他們自己的公平的權利的溢價空間他們的溢價能力會大幅度的下降因為全台灣就只有一家外送平台\n變成是說當他如果是這個不合理的議價也好或是是半公開的議價也好變成是說他們的議價空間太少的時候最後面羊毛出來牆身上最後面會變成是消費者受損不是錢上面受損而是沒有人願意去做這個外送的工作那這一點其實反而是幫整個市場從我的觀點來講反而是整個壓縮整個市場的整個市場的發展反而是無法提供到這方面的服務\n所以說請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生呢結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來的時候現在部長下來我為什麼直接說要公平會\n因為這些事情其實我不是預設立場而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生的機會的時候我們就必須正視這個問題既然大家覺得Foodpanda跟Uber Eats這種外送平台對台灣社會是好事對於我們全民是好事的時候但是我們卻知道說這個有壟斷也有可能\n有可能會造成消費者甚至所有人的方案只有資本家得利的時候我們就必須站出來看一下說是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來製造出來一個合理合法和公平的公式讓整個事情能夠做一個很好解決我想對整個市場的結構競爭的自信以及利害關係人的權益各方面在公平會都會通盤去考量而且我們舉辦的臺北、台中、高雄一覽都舉辦了公聽會對於各界的意見我們都有掌握\n我很期待說我們在這邊我們最後面看到這個客運這個應該叫做客貨運運輸業規則的修訂最後面是一個相對比較是要一個完好的結果我們知道這是最基本的法這是最基本對他們的權益的保障不然的話他們不會出來說大聲呼籲要這個法而我認同他們的想法\n但是這些事情上面來講或許應該讓更多人知道尤其是讓這個end user所謂的一般的消費者知道說其實他們這些外送員我們知道他們辛苦但是我們也要說他們辛苦是有價值的他們辛苦是有代價的這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.660 --> 00:09.084\n呃謝謝主席有請陳部長跟我們這個交通部陳部長這個公路局的這個陳局長陳國仁局長\n\n00:18.799 --> 00:36.608\n部長根據剛剛我看到的資料上面講說是國道客運的缺員人數是772人差不多是將近18%那在地區的在地區的這個在地區的這個市區巴士缺員差不多1443人估計算起來剛剛差不多是總人數的12%我想請問這個數據是什麼時候計算出來的\n\n00:43.270 --> 01:02.209\n跟委員報告就是今年的一個統計是今年統計對吧對今年統計所以說你剛剛在上面講的這個3000你們說從2020年開始所增的兩三千兩百那是累積累積出來兩三千兩百已經加進去了但是還是不夠不是跟委員報告累積因為有一些部分還在受訓\n\n01:02.970 --> 01:28.986\n就是說他是就是我們招募進來因為他的就是說受訓他有期間然後取得這個大客車的駕照的話他還有一些經驗的時間的限制所以像今年的缺員的部分今年的招募活動還招募了500多位進來因為這個人數其實看起來是非常的非常的可怕尤其是說如果我們只講說18%如果說國道客運少18%的司機能夠開車的話實質上班次就可能少不只不只18%\n\n01:30.507 --> 01:54.002\n這其實對於基隆到台北甚至桃園到台北的這個通行主來講是很大是很大的危機而我剛剛在這份報告裡面看到說你們在明年2025年2月28號你們對於這個補助的計畫就會停止對不對那請問你們有新的計畫嗎跟各位報告因為部長也有指示就是說因為招募駕駛的這一個還是不夠所以我們就是說這個明年2月底之後還會持續再辦理\n\n01:54.542 --> 02:10.841\n我們舊的計畫結束新的還會繼續走因為缺工的問題一定要解決而且會依照這個像這個勞動的基本薪資也調升了所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升因為我會希望說你們會提出來新的計畫就是有關因為真的缺工很嚴重\n\n02:11.802 --> 02:24.857\n全國非常嚴重的情況之下那我們現在你剛我剛看到說要去找外籍勞工啊還是說去找僑生啊其實某個時候都緩不濟急我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或是跟這些司機們他們談其實他們對這點都有點\n\n02:26.559 --> 02:53.646\n這一點有點疑慮啦這不是壞事但是來以說一時之間就馬上說我們自己開著大客車的司機如果是外籍人士的話多多少少對民眾的這個觀感來講可能會有些會有些遲疑這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍外籍僑生還是找外籍員工進來倒不如比較務實一點說針對現在能不能讓我們多一點的人來多一點的司機來願意來開這個這個客車尤其是我記得我剛到立法院的時候我就特地辦了一個辦了一個協調會\n\n02:55.146 --> 03:12.305\n有關這個對於司機對於客運司機能不能讓他們工作環境好一點因為我們很多次我們其實剛剛那個李崑哲我也講到說很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開因為他們接受太多無理的客宿這件事我想局長跟部長部長可能聽過可是局長知道很清楚\n\n03:12.785 --> 03:36.343\n那我常講說勿妄勿縱也就是說如果說司機的服務品質的確不好那的確要入住懲處但是如果司機的服務品質沒有不好而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候那麻煩客運公司跟公務總區這邊特地要保護這些司機因為他們已經是非常辛苦已經在過勞的情況在開車而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞\n\n03:36.983 --> 03:42.007\n好那接下來第二個問題有請那個不好意思部長請你再留一下有請這個勞動部的次長\n\n03:53.959 --> 04:11.330\n委員長部長跟次長其實我這一個有關外送平台的專報告是我請我們主席幫忙排的那其實一排了之後其實就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提說有關他們的需求跟他們的苦衷\n\n04:11.810 --> 04:26.036\n那我個人還是認為說這個法這個修訂規則因為他們跟我講過很多為什麼會是交通部來辦因為目前來講這只有客貨運輸管理規則可以去幫助到這一塊所以說針對運費的部分\n\n04:28.337 --> 04:50.495\n對而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員而這些外送員來講我會認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中保障他們權益的基本作為所以我對這個法是給予肯定的不過另外一方面我會在這邊想說請教說部長有沒有機會開公廳會因為這方面有太多還是已經開過因為還沒開過吧\n\n04:51.596 --> 05:08.778\n報告委員公聽會沒有開過之前呢部裡面有邀請這個業者跟這個工會大家一起來協商但我要求我們的公路局因為未來的定價是五方協商中央政府消費者再加工會然後再加產業的方面的代表\n\n05:09.158 --> 05:30.886\n大家都想知道發生什麼事這個案子其實已經太多人在關注了而我們在第一線的時候有聽到很多這個不只是外送平台甚至外送業者會跟我講說到底發生什麼事那其實所謂的我當初擔心的事情可能不是只有就是整個事情關於巧麗明目的事情可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明\n\n05:31.826 --> 05:57.843\n剛開始在4年前的時候他們一單可以收70塊可是4年後可能一單可能收不到40塊的時候難怪外送業者會覺得他們被剝削那這個情況的話其實我為什麼把勞動部次長請上來因為這個問題的話我們如果說要讓這個公式我知道最後面出來會有一個所謂計算公式計算運價的公式要讓這公式能夠透明化讓大家知道這公式存在之外而且讓大家知道說這每一個費用是為什麼而調的\n\n05:58.723 --> 06:13.891\n我出來他們跟我來我聽得懂什麼是樓層費而且樓層費是有必要的存在這個我認同當初是我了解不夠深但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道因為不是只有這些外送員需要這個事情消費者也要知道這方面的事情\n\n06:14.291 --> 06:38.102\n我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來大家會先做一個會議會先做一個會議在下週三那下週三大概各方討論的結論我也會再向委員來報告好謝謝謝部長那再來有請這個公平交易委員會的李主委好李主委部長謝謝請問這接下來跟部長比較沒有那個市長還是要留著不好意思\n\n06:41.864 --> 07:08.985\n委員長因為為什麼問主委因為我在國外很長一段時間國外對於monopoly對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的甚至我記得美國有所謂反托拉斯法但是我在那邊看到的時候其實老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話最會倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員可能最後面只有資本家得利這點主委認同嗎\n\n07:09.945 --> 07:28.171\n國外對獨佔、壟斷的行為在《競爭法》都會有一些嚴格的管制因為我為什麼會這樣講的原因是這是從美國的法治精神來看當然台灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣但是為什麼這樣講因為當我看到UberEats跟Foodpanda加起來一定超過80%是佔率的時候\n\n07:30.154 --> 07:58.873\n我們就會覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們需要去關注我現在直接問說目前他們這個merger他們這個訂購的進度到什麼時候這兩家平台來申報結合目前我們在補件的階段補件那現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎我們要補的一些包括今天還有各界的這些關切我們還有需要的一些文件都請他要補齊說明\n\n08:00.594 --> 08:23.747\n我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講因為老實說如果當這個合併完成的時候其實對於這些外送平台的外送員的溢價空間他們要符合他們自己的公平的權利的溢價空間他們的溢價能力會大幅度的下降因為全台灣就只有一家外送平台\n\n08:24.307 --> 08:48.519\n變成是說當他如果是這個不合理的議價也好或是是半公開的議價也好變成是說他們的議價空間太少的時候最後面羊毛出來牆身上最後面會變成是消費者受損不是錢上面受損而是沒有人願意去做這個外送的工作那這一點其實反而是幫整個市場從我的觀點來講反而是整個壓縮整個市場的整個市場的發展反而是無法提供到這方面的服務\n\n08:49.159 --> 09:11.378\n所以說請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生呢結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來的時候現在部長下來我為什麼直接說要公平會\n\n09:12.279 --> 09:29.000\n因為這些事情其實我不是預設立場而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生的機會的時候我們就必須正視這個問題既然大家覺得Foodpanda跟UberEats這種外送平台對台灣社會是好事對於我們全民是好事的時候但是我們卻知道說這個有壟斷也有可能\n\n09:29.380 --> 09:57.400\n有可能會造成消費者甚至所有人的方案只有資本家得利的時候我們就必須站出來看一下說是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來製造出來一個合理合法和公平的公式讓整個事情能夠做一個很好解決我想對整個市場的結構競爭的自信以及利害關係人的權益各方面在公平會都會通盤去考量而且我們舉辦的臺北、台中、高雄一覽都舉辦了公聽會對於各界的意見我們都有掌握\n\n09:57.500 --> 10:17.195\n我很期待說我們在這邊我們最後面看到這個客運這個應該叫做客貨運運輸業規則的修訂最後面是一個相對比較是要一個完好的結果我們知道這是最基本的法這是最基本對他們的權益的保障不然的話他們不會出來說大聲呼籲要這個法而我認同他們的想法\n\n10:17.515 --> 10:34.030\n但是這些事情上面來講或許應該讓更多人知道尤其是讓這個enduser所謂的一般的消費者知道說其實他們這些外送員我們知道他們辛苦但是我們也要說他們辛苦是有價值的他們辛苦是有代價的這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.66,"end":9.084,"text":"呃謝謝主席有請陳部長跟我們這個交通部陳部長這個公路局的這個陳局長陳國仁局長"},{"start":18.799,"end":36.608,"text":"部長根據剛剛我看到的資料上面講說是國道客運的缺員人數是772人差不多是將近18%那在地區的在地區的這個在地區的這個市區巴士缺員差不多1443人估計算起來剛剛差不多是總人數的12%我想請問這個數據是什麼時候計算出來的"},{"start":43.27,"end":62.209,"text":"跟委員報告就是今年的一個統計是今年統計對吧對 今年統計所以說你剛剛在上面講的這個3000你們說從2020年開始所增的兩三千兩百那是累積累積出來兩三千兩百已經加進去了但是還是不夠不是跟委員報告累積因為有一些部分還在受訓"},{"start":62.97,"end":88.986,"text":"就是說他是就是我們招募進來因為他的就是說受訓他有期間然後取得這個大客車的駕照的話他還有一些經驗的時間的限制所以像今年的缺員的部分今年的招募活動還招募了500多位進來因為這個人數其實看起來是非常的非常的可怕尤其是說如果我們只講說18%如果說國道客運少18%的司機能夠開車的話實質上班次就可能少不只不只18%"},{"start":90.507,"end":114.002,"text":"這其實對於基隆到台北甚至桃園到台北的這個通行主來講是很大是很大的危機而我剛剛在這份報告裡面看到說你們在明年2025年2月28號你們對於這個補助的計畫就會停止對不對那請問你們有新的計畫嗎跟各位報告因為部長也有指示就是說因為招募駕駛的這一個還是不夠所以我們就是說這個明年2月底之後還會持續再辦理"},{"start":114.542,"end":130.841,"text":"我們舊的計畫結束新的還會繼續走因為缺工的問題一定要解決而且會依照這個像這個勞動的基本薪資也調升了所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升因為我會希望說你們會提出來新的計畫就是有關因為真的缺工很嚴重"},{"start":131.802,"end":144.857,"text":"全國非常嚴重的情況之下那我們現在你剛我剛看到說要去找外籍勞工啊還是說去找僑生啊其實某個時候都緩不濟急我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或是跟這些司機們他們談其實他們對這點都有點"},{"start":146.559,"end":173.646,"text":"這一點有點疑慮啦這不是壞事但是來以說一時之間就馬上說我們自己開著大客車的司機如果是外籍人士的話多多少少對民眾的這個觀感來講可能會有些會有些遲疑這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍外籍僑生還是找外籍員工進來倒不如比較務實一點說針對現在能不能讓我們多一點的人來多一點的司機來願意來開這個這個客車尤其是我記得我剛到立法院的時候我就特地辦了一個辦了一個協調會"},{"start":175.146,"end":192.305,"text":"有關這個對於司機對於客運司機能不能讓他們工作環境好一點因為我們很多次我們其實剛剛那個李崑哲我也講到說很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開因為他們接受太多無理的客宿這件事我想局長跟部長部長可能聽過可是局長知道很清楚"},{"start":192.785,"end":216.343,"text":"那我常講說勿妄勿縱也就是說如果說司機的服務品質的確不好那的確要入住懲處但是如果司機的服務品質沒有不好而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候那麻煩客運公司跟公務總區這邊特地要保護這些司機因為他們已經是非常辛苦已經在過勞的情況在開車而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞"},{"start":216.983,"end":222.007,"text":"好那接下來第二個問題有請那個不好意思部長請你再留一下有請這個勞動部的次長"},{"start":233.959,"end":251.33,"text":"委員長部長跟次長其實我這一個有關外送平台的專報告是我請我們主席幫忙排的那其實一排了之後其實就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提說有關他們的需求跟他們的苦衷"},{"start":251.81,"end":266.036,"text":"那我個人還是認為說這個法這個修訂規則因為他們跟我講過很多為什麼會是交通部來辦因為目前來講這只有客貨運輸管理規則可以去幫助到這一塊所以說針對運費的部分"},{"start":268.337,"end":290.495,"text":"對 而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員而這些外送員來講我會認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中保障他們權益的基本作為所以我對這個法是給予肯定的不過另外一方面我會在這邊想說請教說部長有沒有機會開公廳會因為這方面有太多還是已經開過因為還沒開過吧"},{"start":291.596,"end":308.778,"text":"報告委員公聽會沒有開過之前呢部裡面有邀請這個業者跟這個工會大家一起來協商但我要求我們的公路局因為未來的定價是五方協商中央政府消費者再加工會然後再加產業的方面的代表"},{"start":309.158,"end":330.886,"text":"大家都想知道發生什麼事這個案子其實已經太多人在關注了而我們在第一線的時候有聽到很多這個不只是外送平台甚至外送業者會跟我講說到底發生什麼事那其實所謂的我當初擔心的事情可能不是只有就是整個事情關於巧麗明目的事情可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明"},{"start":331.826,"end":357.843,"text":"剛開始在4年前的時候他們一單可以收70塊可是4年後可能一單可能收不到40塊的時候難怪外送業者會覺得他們被剝削那這個情況的話其實我為什麼把勞動部次長請上來因為這個問題的話我們如果說要讓這個公式我知道最後面出來會有一個所謂計算公式計算運價的公式要讓這公式能夠透明化讓大家知道這公式存在之外而且讓大家知道說這每一個費用是為什麼而調的"},{"start":358.723,"end":373.891,"text":"我出來他們跟我來我聽得懂什麼是樓層費而且樓層費是有必要的存在這個我認同當初是我了解不夠深但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道因為不是只有這些外送員需要這個事情消費者也要知道這方面的事情"},{"start":374.291,"end":398.102,"text":"我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來大家會先做一個會議會先做一個會議在下週三那下週三大概各方討論的結論我也會再向委員來報告好 謝謝 謝部長那再來有請這個公平交易委員會的李主委好 李主委部長謝謝 請問這接下來跟部長比較沒有那個市長還是要留著 不好意思"},{"start":401.864,"end":428.985,"text":"委員長因為為什麼問主委因為我在國外很長一段時間國外對於monopoly對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的甚至我記得美國有所謂反托拉斯法但是我在那邊看到的時候其實老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話最會倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員可能最後面只有資本家得利這點主委認同嗎"},{"start":429.945,"end":448.171,"text":"國外對獨佔、壟斷的行為在《競爭法》都會有一些嚴格的管制因為我為什麼會這樣講的原因是這是從美國的法治精神來看當然台灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣但是為什麼這樣講因為當我看到Uber Eats跟Foodpanda加起來一定超過80%是佔率的時候"},{"start":450.154,"end":478.873,"text":"我們就會覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們需要去關注我現在直接問說目前他們這個merger他們這個訂購的進度到什麼時候這兩家平台來申報結合目前我們在補件的階段補件那現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎我們要補的一些包括今天還有各界的這些關切我們還有需要的一些文件都請他要補齊說明"},{"start":480.594,"end":503.747,"text":"我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講因為老實說如果當這個合併完成的時候其實對於這些外送平台的外送員的溢價空間他們要符合他們自己的公平的權利的溢價空間他們的溢價能力會大幅度的下降因為全台灣就只有一家外送平台"},{"start":504.307,"end":528.519,"text":"變成是說當他如果是這個不合理的議價也好或是是半公開的議價也好變成是說他們的議價空間太少的時候最後面羊毛出來牆身上最後面會變成是消費者受損不是錢上面受損而是沒有人願意去做這個外送的工作那這一點其實反而是幫整個市場從我的觀點來講反而是整個壓縮整個市場的整個市場的發展反而是無法提供到這方面的服務"},{"start":529.159,"end":551.378,"text":"所以說請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生呢結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來的時候現在部長下來我為什麼直接說要公平會"},{"start":552.279,"end":569,"text":"因為這些事情其實我不是預設立場而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生的機會的時候我們就必須正視這個問題既然大家覺得Foodpanda跟Uber Eats這種外送平台對台灣社會是好事對於我們全民是好事的時候但是我們卻知道說這個有壟斷也有可能"},{"start":569.38,"end":597.4,"text":"有可能會造成消費者甚至所有人的方案只有資本家得利的時候我們就必須站出來看一下說是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來製造出來一個合理合法和公平的公式讓整個事情能夠做一個很好解決我想對整個市場的結構競爭的自信以及利害關係人的權益各方面在公平會都會通盤去考量而且我們舉辦的臺北、台中、高雄一覽都舉辦了公聽會對於各界的意見我們都有掌握"},{"start":597.5,"end":617.195,"text":"我很期待說我們在這邊我們最後面看到這個客運這個應該叫做客貨運運輸業規則的修訂最後面是一個相對比較是要一個完好的結果我們知道這是最基本的法這是最基本對他們的權益的保障不然的話他們不會出來說大聲呼籲要這個法而我認同他們的想法"},{"start":617.515,"end":634.03,"text":"但是這些事情上面來講或許應該讓更多人知道尤其是讓這個end user所謂的一般的消費者知道說其實他們這些外送員我們知道他們辛苦但是我們也要說他們辛苦是有價值的他們辛苦是有代價的這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":152,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時53分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長跟公路局陳局長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長、陳文瑞局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，根據剛剛我看到的資料，上面提到國道客運的缺員人數是772人，差不多將近18%；地區市區巴士的缺員差不多是1,443人，估計起來差不多是總人數的12%。我想請問這個數據是什麼時候計算出來的？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，就是今年的一個統計……"],["林委員沛祥：是今年統計的？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，今年統計的……"],["林委員沛祥：所以你剛剛講的，從2020年開始所徵的3,200人……"],["陳局長文瑞：那是累積下來的。"],["林委員沛祥：累積下來的3,200人已經加進去了，但還是不夠？"],["陳局長文瑞：不是，跟委員報告，累積的部分，因為還有一些在受訓，就是我們招募進來後，因為他有受訓的期間，然後取得大客車駕照後，還有一些駕車經驗的時間限制。所以像今年缺員的部分，我們在今年的招募活動還招募了五百多位進來。"],["林委員沛祥：因為這個人數看起來是非常的可怕，尤其是如果我們只講18%，如果國道客運少18%的司機來開車，實際上班次就可能少不只18%，這對於基隆到臺北，甚至桃園到臺北的通勤族來講是很大很大的危機。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員沛祥：而我剛剛在這份報告裡面看到說，你們在明（2025）年2月28號這個補助的計畫就會停止，對不對？請問你們有新計畫嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟各位報告，部長也有指示，因為招募駕駛這部分還是不夠，所以我們明年2月底之後還會再持續辦理。"],["陳部長世凱：我們舊的計畫結束，新的還會繼續，因為這個缺工的問題一定要解決。"],["陳局長文瑞：而且會依照相關數字，比如說勞動的基本薪資也調升了，所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升。"],["林委員沛祥：我會希望你們提出新的計畫，因為真的缺工很嚴重，在缺工非常嚴重的情況之下，我剛剛看到，你們說要去找外籍的勞工或是去找僑生，其實某個程度是緩不濟急的，我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或者是跟這些司機們談，其實他們對這個都有點疑慮，這不是壞事，但是一時之間，開著大客車的司機，如果馬上從我們自己的人變成是外籍人士的話，多多少少對民眾的觀感來講，可能會有一些遲疑，這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍僑生，還是找外籍員工進來，倒不如比較務實一點，看看現在能不能讓多一點的人或是司機願意來開這個客車。","記得我剛到立法院的時候，我就特地辦了一個協調會，這是有關能不能讓客運司機工作環境好一點的協調會，像剛剛李昆澤委員也提到，很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開，因為他們接到太多無理的客訴，這件事我想請局長跟部長注意，部長可能聽過，局長可能很清楚知道，我常說勿枉勿縱，也就是說，如果司機的服務品質的確不好，那的確是要懲處，但是，如果司機的服務品質沒有不好，而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候，麻煩客運公司跟公路總局這邊，要特別地保護這些司機，因為他們已經非常辛苦，已經是在過勞的情況開車，而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞。","第二個問題，不好意思，部長請你再留一下，接著有請勞動部陳次長。"],["主席：請勞動部陳次長。"],["陳次長明仁：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：部長跟次長，有關外送平台的專案報告是我請主席幫我排的，其實排了之後，就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提到有關於他們的需求，跟他們的苦衷。我個人還是認為，關於修訂這個規則，因為他們跟我講過很多，為什麼是由交通部來辦，因為目前來講，只有運輸管理規則可以幫助到這一塊，所以……"],["陳部長世凱：針對運費的部分是交通部來做。"],["林委員沛祥：而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員，對這些外送員來講，我認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中，保障他們權益的基本作為，所以我對這個法是給予肯定的。不過在另外一方面，我要請教部長，有沒有機會開公聽會？因為這方面有太多問題了，還是已經開過？應該是沒有開過吧？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，公聽會沒有開過，之前部裡面有邀請業者跟公會大家一起來協商，但我要求我們的公路局，因為未來的定價是五方協商，地方政府、中央政府、消費者再加公會，然後再加上產業方面的代表。"],["林委員沛祥：對，大家都想知道發生什麼事，這個案子其實已經有太多人在關注了，而且我們在第一線的時候，真的聽到很多，不只是外送平台，甚至外送員都跟我說到底發生了什麼事。其實我當初擔心的事情，可能不是只有巧立名目的事情，可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明，剛開始、在4年前的時候，他們一單可以收70塊，可是4年後在一單可能收不到40塊的時候，難怪外送員會覺得他們被剝削，就這個情況，我為什麼把勞動部次長也請上來，因為這個問題，我知道最後會出來一個所謂計算運價的公式，要讓這個公式能夠透明化，讓大家知道這個公式存在之外，而且也要讓大家知道這部分每一個費用是為什麼調整。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["林委員沛祥：他們有來跟我談過，我聽得懂所謂的樓層費，而且樓層費是有必要的存在，這個我認同，當初是我了解不夠深，但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道，因為不是只有這些外送員需要，消費者也要知道這方面的事情。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方，包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來，大家在下週三會先做一個會議，下週三大概各方討論的結論，我也會再向委員來報告。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝部長。再來，有請公平交易委員會的李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，謝謝，請回。接下來的議題跟部長比較沒關係，但是次長還是要留著，不好意思。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼問主委？因為我在國外很長一段時間，國外對於monopoly、對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的，甚至我記得美國有反托拉斯法，但是我在那邊看到的時候，老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因，是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭，如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話，最後倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員，可能最後面只有資本家得利，這點主委認同嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不管是國內或國外對於……"],["林委員沛祥：我只是問你有沒有認同這個事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：對於獨占、壟斷的行為，在競爭法都會有一些嚴格的管制。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼會這樣講的原因是，這是從美國的法治精神來看，當然臺灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣，但是為什麼這樣講？因為當我看到Uber Eats跟foodpanda加起來一定超過80%市占率的時候，我們就會覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們去關注。甚至我現在直接問，目前他們的merger、併購的進度進入到什麼時候？進度如何？"],["李主任委員鎂：這兩家平臺來申報結合，目前我們在補件的階段。"],["林委員沛祥：現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要補的一些，包括今天還有各界的關切，我們還有需要的一些文件，都請它要補齊、說明。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講？因為老實說，當這個併購、合併完成的時候，其實對於這些外送平臺的外送員來講，要符合他們自己公平權利的議價空間、他們的議價能力會大幅度地下降，因為全臺灣就只有1家外送平臺，也就是當出現不合理的議價也好，或者是半公開的議價也好，變成他們的議價空間太少的時候，羊毛出在羊身上，最後面會變成是消費者受損，不是錢上面受損，而是沒有人願意去做外送的工作，從我的觀點來講，這一點其實反而是壓縮整個市場的發展，無法提供這方面的服務，請問公平會，對於這個想法，你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：結合後整個市場結構的改變，對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的改變，都是我們在審酌這個結合案很重要的參考因素。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼剛剛說要請公平會？其實我不是預設立場，而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生機會的時候，我們就必須正視這個問題。既然大家覺得foodpanda跟Uber Eats這種外送平臺對臺灣社會是好事、對於我們全民是好事，也知道可能有壟斷，有可能會造成消費者、甚至所有人的傷害，只有資本家得利的時候，我們就必須站出來看一下，是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來，製造出一個合理、合法、公平的公式，讓整個事情能夠做一個很好的解決。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想在整個市場的結構、競爭的秩序以及利害關係人的權益各方面，公平會都會通盤去考量，而且我們在臺北、臺中、高雄、宜蘭都舉辦了公聽會，對於各界的意見我們都有掌握。"],["林委員沛祥：我很期待我們在這邊看到客貨運運輸業規則的修訂，最後是往相對比較好的結果發展。我們知道這是最基本的法，這是最基本對他們權益的保障，不然他們不會出來大聲呼籲要這個法，而我認同他們的想法，但是這些事情，或許應該讓更多人知道，尤其是讓end user、所謂的一般消費者知道，其實我們都知道他們外送員的辛苦，但是我們也要說他們的辛苦是有價值的、他們的辛苦是有代價的，這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員。","接下來有請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}}