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{\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 55.928, \"end\": 56.008, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 56.008, \"end\": 56.189, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 56.189, \"end\": 56.409, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 56.409, \"end\": 56.669, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 56.669, \"end\": 56.809, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 56.809, \"end\": 56.989, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 56.989, \"end\": 57.33, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 57.33, \"end\": 57.43, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 57.43, \"end\": 57.61, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 57.61, \"end\": 57.81, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 57.81, \"end\": 57.91, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 57.91, \"end\": 58.05, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"滑\", \"start\": 58.05, \"end\": 58.671, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 58.671, \"end\": 58.971, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 58.971, \"end\": 59.231, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 59.231, \"end\": 59.612, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 59.612, \"end\": 59.852, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 59.852, \"end\": 60.452, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 60.452, \"end\": 60.633, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 60.633, \"end\": 60.753, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 60.753, \"end\": 60.893, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 60.893, \"end\": 60.953, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 60.953, \"end\": 61.173, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 61.173, \"end\": 61.413, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 61.413, \"end\": 61.914, 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70.021, \"end\": 70.682, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 70.682, \"end\": 71.122, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 71.122, \"end\": 71.302, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 71.302, \"end\": 71.482, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 71.482, \"end\": 71.703, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 71.703, \"end\": 71.943, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 71.943, \"end\": 72.023, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 72.023, \"end\": 72.744, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 72.744, \"end\": 73.524, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 73.524, \"end\": 73.684, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 73.684, \"end\": 73.784, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 73.784, \"end\": 74.105, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 74.105, \"end\": 74.245, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 74.245, \"end\": 74.345, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 74.345, \"end\": 74.445, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 74.445, \"end\": 74.545, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 74.545, \"end\": 74.585, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 74.585, \"end\": 74.605, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}]}, {\"start\": 76.546, \"end\": 92.392, \"text\": \"我們現在看到有兩個現象一個就是這個大家找不到匹配的對象是目前調查出來的第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力或者是還要同時照顧父母的壓力都同時存在\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 76.546, \"end\": 76.766, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 76.766, \"end\": 76.946, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 76.946, \"end\": 77.087, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 77.087, \"end\": 77.707, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 77.707, \"end\": 78.547, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"象\", \"start\": 78.547, \"end\": 79.087, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 79.087, \"end\": 79.367, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 79.367, \"end\": 79.587, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 79.587, \"end\": 81.948, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 81.948, \"end\": 82.068, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 82.068, \"end\": 82.208, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 82.208, \"end\": 82.368, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 82.368, \"end\": 82.448, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 82.448, \"end\": 82.628, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"匹\", \"start\": 82.628, \"end\": 82.808, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 82.808, \"end\": 82.928, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 86.37, \"end\": 86.57, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"養\"}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 86.57, \"end\": 86.67, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 86.67, \"end\": 86.83, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"孩\", \"start\": 86.83, \"end\": 86.93, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 86.93, \"end\": 87.27, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"壓\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 87.27, \"end\": 87.95, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 87.95, \"end\": 88.09, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 88.09, \"end\": 88.21, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 88.21, \"end\": 88.47, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 88.47, \"end\": 89.391, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 89.391, \"end\": 89.791, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 89.791, \"end\": 90.171, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"父\", \"start\": 90.171, \"end\": 90.311, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"母\", \"start\": 90.311, \"end\": 90.411, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 90.411, \"end\": 90.771, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"壓\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 90.771, \"end\": 91.471, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 91.471, \"end\": 91.691, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 91.691, \"end\": 92.092, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 92.092, \"end\": 92.372, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 92.372, \"end\": 92.392, \"score\": 0.977}]}, {\"start\": 95.813, \"end\": 115.081, \"text\": \"所以我認為有三件事要做第一個協助他養育第二個讓他能夠結婚的人比較能夠早一點拿到社宅或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅然後第三個部分協助他解放他對養育照顧父母的壓力尤其是很多來台北奮鬥的父母在南部他很難理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 95.813, \"end\": 95.933, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 95.933, \"end\": 96.973, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 96.973, \"end\": 97.073, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, 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103.036, \"end\": 103.236, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"宅\", \"start\": 103.236, \"end\": 103.476, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 103.476, \"end\": 103.616, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 103.616, \"end\": 103.716, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 103.716, \"end\": 104.897, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 104.897, \"end\": 105.117, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 105.117, \"end\": 105.237, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 105.237, \"end\": 105.417, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"優\"}, {\"word\": \"惠\", \"start\": 105.417, \"end\": 105.697, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 105.697, \"end\": 106.217, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"租\", \"start\": 106.217, \"end\": 106.357, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 106.357, \"end\": 106.517, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 106.517, \"end\": 106.717, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"宅\", \"start\": 106.717, \"end\": 106.897, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 106.897, \"end\": 106.958, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 106.958, \"end\": 107.178, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 107.178, \"end\": 107.298, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 107.298, \"end\": 107.558, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 107.558, \"end\": 107.678, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 107.678, \"end\": 107.998, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 107.998, \"end\": 108.158, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 108.158, \"end\": 108.938, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 108.938, \"end\": 109.138, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 109.138, \"end\": 109.318, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 109.318, \"end\": 109.979, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"養\"}, {\"word\": \"育\", 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00:00:08,863\n奈瑞榮委員。」好,謝昭緯,請那個劉主委。請國會劉主委。\n\n2\n00:00:15,863 --> 00:00:36,395\n主委長我想我其實一直在關注這個問題因為我覺得少子化其實是國家的重大問題也是國安問題那國發會其實應該有更強的整合能量來處理這件事情我覺得這也是主委一個很好來幫台灣來幫國家處理好這事的機會我們看到這個趨勢其實是到了2070年剩1584所以\n\n3\n00:00:39,697 --> 00:00:46,988\n而這個還是比較高位數的一個那其實看來會減少到700多甚至到900零3萬我問一下主委你覺得這樣的問題嚴不嚴重\n\n4\n00:00:50,023 --> 00:01:14,605\n我認為非常嚴重尤其是特別影響到未來繳稅跟工作的勞動力會非常可怕包括消費的力道都會下滑所以我認為這個其實是國發會很重要的一個工作各部會但國發會可以扮演比較重要強大的我們看到主委你有幾個孩子我有兩個那你認為為什麼這個少子化台灣的問題會越嚴重就你的觀察跟你自己的經驗\n\n5\n00:01:16,546 --> 00:01:32,392\n我們現在看到有兩個現象一個就是這個大家找不到匹配的對象是目前調查出來的第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力或者是還要同時照顧父母的壓力都同時存在\n\n6\n00:01:35,813 --> 00:01:55,081\n所以我認為有三件事要做第一個協助他養育第二個讓他能夠結婚的人比較能夠早一點拿到社宅或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅然後第三個部分協助他解放他對養育照顧父母的壓力尤其是很多來台北奮鬥的父母在南部他很難理\n\n7\n00:01:56,722 --> 00:02:21,637\n同樣的原因啦在我看來其實因為我自己有三個孩子啦同樣都是你怎麼樣去讓減輕這些年輕的夫妻或是他們本身的壓力讓他們本身如果本身有意願想要生而能夠生而敢生的這個是很重要的原因這裡面有很多面向要去處理但是我覺得這個部分一定要去突破掉不然他兩個人的生活跟他生一個孩子的生活跟生兩個孩子的生活跟生三個孩子的生活是完全不同的\n\n8\n00:02:22,057 --> 00:02:43,828\n包括生育的過程中所要產生的包括生完之後的花費包括他的教養的過程中的托育包括教育等等每個都非常的耗掉相當多的行李跟資源那如果國家在這件事情上給予他更多的支持他就比較有勇氣感去做那如果沒有的話他就比較保守生一個就好或者是跟隨就不一定要生就很多的選擇\n\n9\n00:02:44,508 --> 00:03:13,300\n所以我希望國發會要站在這樣的高度去協助這件事情來推我們來看日本其實也很重視這個問題日本其實已經處理這個問題一段時間了那他們也用這個高度去做處理之前岸田政府的時候也提出了這個對策那我們其實也提出來了0到6歲國家一起養我認為我們現在做的國家一起養就是你國家跟父母一起養啦但我認為現在至少要達到一半以上才叫一起嘛\n\n10\n00:03:13,976 --> 00:03:36,331\n主委你現在覺得我們國家在支撐這些事情上有做到了一半嗎?我們目前是有在做了但是我們今年也增加了預算但當然預算還是卡在立法院那我自己我們有自己在做一個推估假設我們把這個力道再拉大有沒有幫助其實我們問了一下多少有幫助那這個幫助\n\n11\n00:03:37,712 --> 00:04:04,940\n估計的預算大概是五百多億起跳每一年但是如果我們希望這把配套做得好的話我們當時估了一個比較具吸引力的方案大概是一年要增加一千億左右的預算對那這些如果能夠確實來落實的話我認為會很有助於改善因為這一錢就是整個直接用在孩子上就是說我認為國家一起養是其實甚至我認為是國家要來照顧國家應該把所有的孩子當作是他的資產\n\n12\n00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:26,553\n我們看到很多的政府都在努力日本的政府他對於孩子齁這個0到2歲一個月1.5萬日元3到高中畢業18歲一個月1萬瑞典更積極的在於他0到從幾乎是完全支撐了孩子生出來免費教育的部分甚至於這個相關的\n\n13\n00:04:28,141 --> 00:04:50,053\n這些甚至營養午餐等等就是說瑞典的一些國家當然是比較福利的國家他們幾乎是把孩子當作自己的國家的責任在幫忙在照顧那當然國情不同但是用你這樣的態度我們就稅收也不一樣對但你這樣的態度在處理的時候其實周遭包括企業包括所有人都會感受到政府在重視這件事情而且對於生兒育女是友善的是支持的\n\n14\n00:04:50,473 --> 00:05:08,627\n所以我真的希望用國外高度跟院長來支持不管是五百億或一千億我認為這樣的投入對於將來台灣的整體的競爭力有相當大的幫助主委會繼續朝這個方向來推動嗎我會朝這裡來努力也會找時間跟陳政委的討論這件事情\n\n15\n00:05:09,467 --> 00:05:32,416\n我認為至少初階要做到把0到6歲當作是國家的責任國家來養就也就是說他所出生不管是你一次給了一筆的費用讓他生完之後的這個負擔或者是他0到6歲包括他的托育的過程中包括教育過程中的時候你給予他的支持讓他的經費我現在看有很多的啦你搶這個公立的都不一定搶得到\n\n16\n00:05:33,356 --> 00:05:53,355\n自立的又很貴然後你幾乎要負擔每個月要一萬多塊兩萬塊以上的費用的時候對於每一個生出來的生孩子的父母的壓力都非常沉重的那你這樣當然他更不會那這倒還不包含孩子可能半夜會給你吵醒甚至於很多的各種教養的很多問題那非常的複雜那如果你連最基本的支撐他的力量都沒有把它撐起來的話\n\n17\n00:05:54,016 --> 00:06:16,384\n那他們又怎麼有勇氣於生那剛才也包含你談到了每生一個孩子就多出一個空間出來那你的住宅有沒有辦法給予協助等等很多的桌邊配套你的時間可能必須要更充沛你如果是兩個人的話你的生活你只要上下班就可以但是你要照顧孩子你要提前一個小時把他找起來整理好吃完早餐再送他去學校這學校還是你要能夠負擔得起的學校\n\n18\n00:06:16,824 --> 00:06:32,419\n所以他有整套的方式一定要國家全力的來支持他在經費上面在制度方面給予更大的支持我認為才有辦法去有效去緩解這個問題不然就會如你們表所看的而且有可能不斷的下修不斷的惡化這會是台灣很大很大的問題\n\n19\n00:06:33,340 --> 00:06:51,514\n主委認同這樣的看法我認同我會朝這個地方我們來試著去努力我們來看一下臺灣跟其他國家比我們總協議現在是最後一名的我們跟韓國兩個都非常的對我們只比韓國好一點那日本對那日本都還在努力其實都已經有一些成效我剛剛講到日本都還已經開始在\n\n20\n00:06:52,615 --> 00:07:09,020\n為什麼日本給孩子們每個月給他錢等於他把它當作國家把當作是像他的孩子一樣到18歲前我把你當作孩子幫你父母來養這個孩子我給你相關的一些費用所以我覺得國家用這樣的態度來對待我們所有的孩子們\n\n21\n00:07:09,660 --> 00:07:30,429\n在他的特別是0到6歲要特別給予照顧0到6歲是最辛苦的時候因為他還沒有自己獨立的一些能力到6歲上國小他可能自主能力比較強一點就好一點0到6歲往往很多的家庭父母為了要照顧孩子假設生一個兩個也許兩個就已經沒辦法做雙薪了可能到了第三個那抱歉可能只能一個薪水而已了\n\n22\n00:07:30,729 --> 00:07:51,187\n所以那個絕對是非常非常的困難那政府一定要全力的去協助他在這些財政上在整個教育上面可以去做我認為才能夠解套這個問題是的所以我看到了其實你們從2016年開始以及政府在做我們經費已經持續增加但是我認為還是持續做我認為這件事情國家投資資源是非常有意義的\n\n23\n00:07:51,607 --> 00:08:08,164\n一來我們把外來的好的勞動力拉進來但另一方面我們自己本身的優秀的這些人力要不斷地在下一代不斷地培育出來那這樣才會讓台灣整體的競爭力更加強化好不好我希望國家把他當真的國家當作支持這個孩子是我們的責任的角度來養\n\n24\n00:08:10,928 --> 00:08:30,482\n那個計畫的部分我希望再整合一份也給我好不好我希望很快看到你跟院長溝通之後不管是500億的這樣的計畫或是1000億的計畫我希望能夠得到院長的支持那我們希望能夠有效的緩解少子化的問題有效的去讓我們優秀的下一代能夠持續的得到更多的照顧好不好\n\n25\n00:08:31,810 --> 00:08:41,560\n主委那那個報告如果你有相關的資料是不是一個月內給我一份資料好不好我去約一下那個院長跟院長那你那整份的規劃的資料也給我一份好嗎好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t8863\t奈瑞榮委員。」好,謝昭緯,請那個劉主委。請國會劉主委。\n15863\t36395\t主委長我想我其實一直在關注這個問題因為我覺得少子化其實是國家的重大問題也是國安問題那國發會其實應該有更強的整合能量來處理這件事情我覺得這也是主委一個很好來幫台灣來幫國家處理好這事的機會我們看到這個趨勢其實是到了2070年剩1584所以\n39697\t46988\t而這個還是比較高位數的一個那其實看來會減少到700多甚至到900零3萬我問一下主委你覺得這樣的問題嚴不嚴重\n50023\t74605\t我認為非常嚴重尤其是特別影響到未來繳稅跟工作的勞動力會非常可怕包括消費的力道都會下滑所以我認為這個其實是國發會很重要的一個工作各部會但國發會可以扮演比較重要強大的我們看到主委你有幾個孩子我有兩個那你認為為什麼這個少子化台灣的問題會越嚴重就你的觀察跟你自己的經驗\n76546\t92392\t我們現在看到有兩個現象一個就是這個大家找不到匹配的對象是目前調查出來的第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力或者是還要同時照顧父母的壓力都同時存在\n95813\t115081\t所以我認為有三件事要做第一個協助他養育第二個讓他能夠結婚的人比較能夠早一點拿到社宅或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅然後第三個部分協助他解放他對養育照顧父母的壓力尤其是很多來台北奮鬥的父母在南部他很難理\n116722\t141637\t同樣的原因啦在我看來其實因為我自己有三個孩子啦同樣都是你怎麼樣去讓減輕這些年輕的夫妻或是他們本身的壓力讓他們本身如果本身有意願想要生而能夠生而敢生的這個是很重要的原因這裡面有很多面向要去處理但是我覺得這個部分一定要去突破掉不然他兩個人的生活跟他生一個孩子的生活跟生兩個孩子的生活跟生三個孩子的生活是完全不同的\n142057\t163828\t包括生育的過程中所要產生的包括生完之後的花費包括他的教養的過程中的托育包括教育等等每個都非常的耗掉相當多的行李跟資源那如果國家在這件事情上給予他更多的支持他就比較有勇氣感去做那如果沒有的話他就比較保守生一個就好或者是跟隨就不一定要生就很多的選擇\n164508\t193300\t所以我希望國發會要站在這樣的高度去協助這件事情來推我們來看日本其實也很重視這個問題日本其實已經處理這個問題一段時間了那他們也用這個高度去做處理之前岸田政府的時候也提出了這個對策那我們其實也提出來了0到6歲國家一起養我認為我們現在做的國家一起養就是你國家跟父母一起養啦但我認為現在至少要達到一半以上才叫一起嘛\n193976\t216331\t主委你現在覺得我們國家在支撐這些事情上有做到了一半嗎?我們目前是有在做了但是我們今年也增加了預算但當然預算還是卡在立法院那我自己我們有自己在做一個推估假設我們把這個力道再拉大有沒有幫助其實我們問了一下多少有幫助那這個幫助\n217712\t244940\t估計的預算大概是五百多億起跳每一年但是如果我們希望這把配套做得好的話我們當時估了一個比較具吸引力的方案大概是一年要增加一千億左右的預算對那這些如果能夠確實來落實的話我認為會很有助於改善因為這一錢就是整個直接用在孩子上就是說我認為國家一起養是其實甚至我認為是國家要來照顧國家應該把所有的孩子當作是他的資產\n245760\t266553\t我們看到很多的政府都在努力日本的政府他對於孩子齁這個0到2歲一個月1.5萬日元3到高中畢業18歲一個月1萬瑞典更積極的在於他0到從幾乎是完全支撐了孩子生出來免費教育的部分甚至於這個相關的\n268141\t290053\t這些甚至營養午餐等等就是說瑞典的一些國家當然是比較福利的國家他們幾乎是把孩子當作自己的國家的責任在幫忙在照顧那當然國情不同但是用你這樣的態度我們就稅收也不一樣對但你這樣的態度在處理的時候其實周遭包括企業包括所有人都會感受到政府在重視這件事情而且對於生兒育女是友善的是支持的\n290473\t308627\t所以我真的希望用國外高度跟院長來支持不管是五百億或一千億我認為這樣的投入對於將來台灣的整體的競爭力有相當大的幫助主委會繼續朝這個方向來推動嗎我會朝這裡來努力也會找時間跟陳政委的討論這件事情\n309467\t332416\t我認為至少初階要做到把0到6歲當作是國家的責任國家來養就也就是說他所出生不管是你一次給了一筆的費用讓他生完之後的這個負擔或者是他0到6歲包括他的托育的過程中包括教育過程中的時候你給予他的支持讓他的經費我現在看有很多的啦你搶這個公立的都不一定搶得到\n333356\t353355\t自立的又很貴然後你幾乎要負擔每個月要一萬多塊兩萬塊以上的費用的時候對於每一個生出來的生孩子的父母的壓力都非常沉重的那你這樣當然他更不會那這倒還不包含孩子可能半夜會給你吵醒甚至於很多的各種教養的很多問題那非常的複雜那如果你連最基本的支撐他的力量都沒有把它撐起來的話\n354016\t376384\t那他們又怎麼有勇氣於生那剛才也包含你談到了每生一個孩子就多出一個空間出來那你的住宅有沒有辦法給予協助等等很多的桌邊配套你的時間可能必須要更充沛你如果是兩個人的話你的生活你只要上下班就可以但是你要照顧孩子你要提前一個小時把他找起來整理好吃完早餐再送他去學校這學校還是你要能夠負擔得起的學校\n376824\t392419\t所以他有整套的方式一定要國家全力的來支持他在經費上面在制度方面給予更大的支持我認為才有辦法去有效去緩解這個問題不然就會如你們表所看的而且有可能不斷的下修不斷的惡化這會是台灣很大很大的問題\n393340\t411514\t主委認同這樣的看法我認同我會朝這個地方我們來試著去努力我們來看一下臺灣跟其他國家比我們總協議現在是最後一名的我們跟韓國兩個都非常的對我們只比韓國好一點那日本對那日本都還在努力其實都已經有一些成效我剛剛講到日本都還已經開始在\n412615\t429020\t為什麼日本給孩子們每個月給他錢等於他把它當作國家把當作是像他的孩子一樣到18歲前我把你當作孩子幫你父母來養這個孩子我給你相關的一些費用所以我覺得國家用這樣的態度來對待我們所有的孩子們\n429660\t450429\t在他的特別是0到6歲要特別給予照顧0到6歲是最辛苦的時候因為他還沒有自己獨立的一些能力到6歲上國小他可能自主能力比較強一點就好一點0到6歲往往很多的家庭父母為了要照顧孩子假設生一個兩個也許兩個就已經沒辦法做雙薪了可能到了第三個那抱歉可能只能一個薪水而已了\n450729\t471187\t所以那個絕對是非常非常的困難那政府一定要全力的去協助他在這些財政上在整個教育上面可以去做我認為才能夠解套這個問題是的所以我看到了其實你們從2016年開始以及政府在做我們經費已經持續增加但是我認為還是持續做我認為這件事情國家投資資源是非常有意義的\n471607\t488164\t一來我們把外來的好的勞動力拉進來但另一方面我們自己本身的優秀的這些人力要不斷地在下一代不斷地培育出來那這樣才會讓台灣整體的競爭力更加強化好不好我希望國家把他當真的國家當作支持這個孩子是我們的責任的角度來養\n490928\t510482\t那個計畫的部分我希望再整合一份也給我好不好我希望很快看到你跟院長溝通之後不管是500億的這樣的計畫或是1000億的計畫我希望能夠得到院長的支持那我們希望能夠有效的緩解少子化的問題有效的去讓我們優秀的下一代能夠持續的得到更多的照顧好不好\n511810\t521560\t主委那那個報告如果你有相關的資料是不是一個月內給我一份資料好不好我去約一下那個院長跟院長那你那整份的規劃的資料也給我一份好嗎好謝謝\n","txt":"奈瑞榮委員。」好,謝昭緯,請那個劉主委。請國會劉主委。\n主委長我想我其實一直在關注這個問題因為我覺得少子化其實是國家的重大問題也是國安問題那國發會其實應該有更強的整合能量來處理這件事情我覺得這也是主委一個很好來幫台灣來幫國家處理好這事的機會我們看到這個趨勢其實是到了2070年剩1584所以\n而這個還是比較高位數的一個那其實看來會減少到700多甚至到900零3萬我問一下主委你覺得這樣的問題嚴不嚴重\n我認為非常嚴重尤其是特別影響到未來繳稅跟工作的勞動力會非常可怕包括消費的力道都會下滑所以我認為這個其實是國發會很重要的一個工作各部會但國發會可以扮演比較重要強大的我們看到主委你有幾個孩子我有兩個那你認為為什麼這個少子化台灣的問題會越嚴重就你的觀察跟你自己的經驗\n我們現在看到有兩個現象一個就是這個大家找不到匹配的對象是目前調查出來的第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力或者是還要同時照顧父母的壓力都同時存在\n所以我認為有三件事要做第一個協助他養育第二個讓他能夠結婚的人比較能夠早一點拿到社宅或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅然後第三個部分協助他解放他對養育照顧父母的壓力尤其是很多來台北奮鬥的父母在南部他很難理\n同樣的原因啦在我看來其實因為我自己有三個孩子啦同樣都是你怎麼樣去讓減輕這些年輕的夫妻或是他們本身的壓力讓他們本身如果本身有意願想要生而能夠生而敢生的這個是很重要的原因這裡面有很多面向要去處理但是我覺得這個部分一定要去突破掉不然他兩個人的生活跟他生一個孩子的生活跟生兩個孩子的生活跟生三個孩子的生活是完全不同的\n包括生育的過程中所要產生的包括生完之後的花費包括他的教養的過程中的托育包括教育等等每個都非常的耗掉相當多的行李跟資源那如果國家在這件事情上給予他更多的支持他就比較有勇氣感去做那如果沒有的話他就比較保守生一個就好或者是跟隨就不一定要生就很多的選擇\n所以我希望國發會要站在這樣的高度去協助這件事情來推我們來看日本其實也很重視這個問題日本其實已經處理這個問題一段時間了那他們也用這個高度去做處理之前岸田政府的時候也提出了這個對策那我們其實也提出來了0到6歲國家一起養我認為我們現在做的國家一起養就是你國家跟父母一起養啦但我認為現在至少要達到一半以上才叫一起嘛\n主委你現在覺得我們國家在支撐這些事情上有做到了一半嗎?我們目前是有在做了但是我們今年也增加了預算但當然預算還是卡在立法院那我自己我們有自己在做一個推估假設我們把這個力道再拉大有沒有幫助其實我們問了一下多少有幫助那這個幫助\n估計的預算大概是五百多億起跳每一年但是如果我們希望這把配套做得好的話我們當時估了一個比較具吸引力的方案大概是一年要增加一千億左右的預算對那這些如果能夠確實來落實的話我認為會很有助於改善因為這一錢就是整個直接用在孩子上就是說我認為國家一起養是其實甚至我認為是國家要來照顧國家應該把所有的孩子當作是他的資產\n我們看到很多的政府都在努力日本的政府他對於孩子齁這個0到2歲一個月1.5萬日元3到高中畢業18歲一個月1萬瑞典更積極的在於他0到從幾乎是完全支撐了孩子生出來免費教育的部分甚至於這個相關的\n這些甚至營養午餐等等就是說瑞典的一些國家當然是比較福利的國家他們幾乎是把孩子當作自己的國家的責任在幫忙在照顧那當然國情不同但是用你這樣的態度我們就稅收也不一樣對但你這樣的態度在處理的時候其實周遭包括企業包括所有人都會感受到政府在重視這件事情而且對於生兒育女是友善的是支持的\n所以我真的希望用國外高度跟院長來支持不管是五百億或一千億我認為這樣的投入對於將來台灣的整體的競爭力有相當大的幫助主委會繼續朝這個方向來推動嗎我會朝這裡來努力也會找時間跟陳政委的討論這件事情\n我認為至少初階要做到把0到6歲當作是國家的責任國家來養就也就是說他所出生不管是你一次給了一筆的費用讓他生完之後的這個負擔或者是他0到6歲包括他的托育的過程中包括教育過程中的時候你給予他的支持讓他的經費我現在看有很多的啦你搶這個公立的都不一定搶得到\n自立的又很貴然後你幾乎要負擔每個月要一萬多塊兩萬塊以上的費用的時候對於每一個生出來的生孩子的父母的壓力都非常沉重的那你這樣當然他更不會那這倒還不包含孩子可能半夜會給你吵醒甚至於很多的各種教養的很多問題那非常的複雜那如果你連最基本的支撐他的力量都沒有把它撐起來的話\n那他們又怎麼有勇氣於生那剛才也包含你談到了每生一個孩子就多出一個空間出來那你的住宅有沒有辦法給予協助等等很多的桌邊配套你的時間可能必須要更充沛你如果是兩個人的話你的生活你只要上下班就可以但是你要照顧孩子你要提前一個小時把他找起來整理好吃完早餐再送他去學校這學校還是你要能夠負擔得起的學校\n所以他有整套的方式一定要國家全力的來支持他在經費上面在制度方面給予更大的支持我認為才有辦法去有效去緩解這個問題不然就會如你們表所看的而且有可能不斷的下修不斷的惡化這會是台灣很大很大的問題\n主委認同這樣的看法我認同我會朝這個地方我們來試著去努力我們來看一下臺灣跟其他國家比我們總協議現在是最後一名的我們跟韓國兩個都非常的對我們只比韓國好一點那日本對那日本都還在努力其實都已經有一些成效我剛剛講到日本都還已經開始在\n為什麼日本給孩子們每個月給他錢等於他把它當作國家把當作是像他的孩子一樣到18歲前我把你當作孩子幫你父母來養這個孩子我給你相關的一些費用所以我覺得國家用這樣的態度來對待我們所有的孩子們\n在他的特別是0到6歲要特別給予照顧0到6歲是最辛苦的時候因為他還沒有自己獨立的一些能力到6歲上國小他可能自主能力比較強一點就好一點0到6歲往往很多的家庭父母為了要照顧孩子假設生一個兩個也許兩個就已經沒辦法做雙薪了可能到了第三個那抱歉可能只能一個薪水而已了\n所以那個絕對是非常非常的困難那政府一定要全力的去協助他在這些財政上在整個教育上面可以去做我認為才能夠解套這個問題是的所以我看到了其實你們從2016年開始以及政府在做我們經費已經持續增加但是我認為還是持續做我認為這件事情國家投資資源是非常有意義的\n一來我們把外來的好的勞動力拉進來但另一方面我們自己本身的優秀的這些人力要不斷地在下一代不斷地培育出來那這樣才會讓台灣整體的競爭力更加強化好不好我希望國家把他當真的國家當作支持這個孩子是我們的責任的角度來養\n那個計畫的部分我希望再整合一份也給我好不好我希望很快看到你跟院長溝通之後不管是500億的這樣的計畫或是1000億的計畫我希望能夠得到院長的支持那我們希望能夠有效的緩解少子化的問題有效的去讓我們優秀的下一代能夠持續的得到更多的照顧好不好\n主委那那個報告如果你有相關的資料是不是一個月內給我一份資料好不好我去約一下那個院長跟院長那你那整份的規劃的資料也給我一份好嗎好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:08.863\n奈瑞榮委員。」好,謝昭緯,請那個劉主委。請國會劉主委。\n\n00:15.863 --> 00:36.395\n主委長我想我其實一直在關注這個問題因為我覺得少子化其實是國家的重大問題也是國安問題那國發會其實應該有更強的整合能量來處理這件事情我覺得這也是主委一個很好來幫台灣來幫國家處理好這事的機會我們看到這個趨勢其實是到了2070年剩1584所以\n\n00:39.697 --> 00:46.988\n而這個還是比較高位數的一個那其實看來會減少到700多甚至到900零3萬我問一下主委你覺得這樣的問題嚴不嚴重\n\n00:50.023 --> 01:14.605\n我認為非常嚴重尤其是特別影響到未來繳稅跟工作的勞動力會非常可怕包括消費的力道都會下滑所以我認為這個其實是國發會很重要的一個工作各部會但國發會可以扮演比較重要強大的我們看到主委你有幾個孩子我有兩個那你認為為什麼這個少子化台灣的問題會越嚴重就你的觀察跟你自己的經驗\n\n01:16.546 --> 01:32.392\n我們現在看到有兩個現象一個就是這個大家找不到匹配的對象是目前調查出來的第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力或者是還要同時照顧父母的壓力都同時存在\n\n01:35.813 --> 01:55.081\n所以我認為有三件事要做第一個協助他養育第二個讓他能夠結婚的人比較能夠早一點拿到社宅或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅然後第三個部分協助他解放他對養育照顧父母的壓力尤其是很多來台北奮鬥的父母在南部他很難理\n\n01:56.722 --> 02:21.637\n同樣的原因啦在我看來其實因為我自己有三個孩子啦同樣都是你怎麼樣去讓減輕這些年輕的夫妻或是他們本身的壓力讓他們本身如果本身有意願想要生而能夠生而敢生的這個是很重要的原因這裡面有很多面向要去處理但是我覺得這個部分一定要去突破掉不然他兩個人的生活跟他生一個孩子的生活跟生兩個孩子的生活跟生三個孩子的生活是完全不同的\n\n02:22.057 --> 02:43.828\n包括生育的過程中所要產生的包括生完之後的花費包括他的教養的過程中的托育包括教育等等每個都非常的耗掉相當多的行李跟資源那如果國家在這件事情上給予他更多的支持他就比較有勇氣感去做那如果沒有的話他就比較保守生一個就好或者是跟隨就不一定要生就很多的選擇\n\n02:44.508 --> 03:13.300\n所以我希望國發會要站在這樣的高度去協助這件事情來推我們來看日本其實也很重視這個問題日本其實已經處理這個問題一段時間了那他們也用這個高度去做處理之前岸田政府的時候也提出了這個對策那我們其實也提出來了0到6歲國家一起養我認為我們現在做的國家一起養就是你國家跟父母一起養啦但我認為現在至少要達到一半以上才叫一起嘛\n\n03:13.976 --> 03:36.331\n主委你現在覺得我們國家在支撐這些事情上有做到了一半嗎?我們目前是有在做了但是我們今年也增加了預算但當然預算還是卡在立法院那我自己我們有自己在做一個推估假設我們把這個力道再拉大有沒有幫助其實我們問了一下多少有幫助那這個幫助\n\n03:37.712 --> 04:04.940\n估計的預算大概是五百多億起跳每一年但是如果我們希望這把配套做得好的話我們當時估了一個比較具吸引力的方案大概是一年要增加一千億左右的預算對那這些如果能夠確實來落實的話我認為會很有助於改善因為這一錢就是整個直接用在孩子上就是說我認為國家一起養是其實甚至我認為是國家要來照顧國家應該把所有的孩子當作是他的資產\n\n04:05.760 --> 04:26.553\n我們看到很多的政府都在努力日本的政府他對於孩子齁這個0到2歲一個月1.5萬日元3到高中畢業18歲一個月1萬瑞典更積極的在於他0到從幾乎是完全支撐了孩子生出來免費教育的部分甚至於這個相關的\n\n04:28.141 --> 04:50.053\n這些甚至營養午餐等等就是說瑞典的一些國家當然是比較福利的國家他們幾乎是把孩子當作自己的國家的責任在幫忙在照顧那當然國情不同但是用你這樣的態度我們就稅收也不一樣對但你這樣的態度在處理的時候其實周遭包括企業包括所有人都會感受到政府在重視這件事情而且對於生兒育女是友善的是支持的\n\n04:50.473 --> 05:08.627\n所以我真的希望用國外高度跟院長來支持不管是五百億或一千億我認為這樣的投入對於將來台灣的整體的競爭力有相當大的幫助主委會繼續朝這個方向來推動嗎我會朝這裡來努力也會找時間跟陳政委的討論這件事情\n\n05:09.467 --> 05:32.416\n我認為至少初階要做到把0到6歲當作是國家的責任國家來養就也就是說他所出生不管是你一次給了一筆的費用讓他生完之後的這個負擔或者是他0到6歲包括他的托育的過程中包括教育過程中的時候你給予他的支持讓他的經費我現在看有很多的啦你搶這個公立的都不一定搶得到\n\n05:33.356 --> 05:53.355\n自立的又很貴然後你幾乎要負擔每個月要一萬多塊兩萬塊以上的費用的時候對於每一個生出來的生孩子的父母的壓力都非常沉重的那你這樣當然他更不會那這倒還不包含孩子可能半夜會給你吵醒甚至於很多的各種教養的很多問題那非常的複雜那如果你連最基本的支撐他的力量都沒有把它撐起來的話\n\n05:54.016 --> 06:16.384\n那他們又怎麼有勇氣於生那剛才也包含你談到了每生一個孩子就多出一個空間出來那你的住宅有沒有辦法給予協助等等很多的桌邊配套你的時間可能必須要更充沛你如果是兩個人的話你的生活你只要上下班就可以但是你要照顧孩子你要提前一個小時把他找起來整理好吃完早餐再送他去學校這學校還是你要能夠負擔得起的學校\n\n06:16.824 --> 06:32.419\n所以他有整套的方式一定要國家全力的來支持他在經費上面在制度方面給予更大的支持我認為才有辦法去有效去緩解這個問題不然就會如你們表所看的而且有可能不斷的下修不斷的惡化這會是台灣很大很大的問題\n\n06:33.340 --> 06:51.514\n主委認同這樣的看法我認同我會朝這個地方我們來試著去努力我們來看一下臺灣跟其他國家比我們總協議現在是最後一名的我們跟韓國兩個都非常的對我們只比韓國好一點那日本對那日本都還在努力其實都已經有一些成效我剛剛講到日本都還已經開始在\n\n06:52.615 --> 07:09.020\n為什麼日本給孩子們每個月給他錢等於他把它當作國家把當作是像他的孩子一樣到18歲前我把你當作孩子幫你父母來養這個孩子我給你相關的一些費用所以我覺得國家用這樣的態度來對待我們所有的孩子們\n\n07:09.660 --> 07:30.429\n在他的特別是0到6歲要特別給予照顧0到6歲是最辛苦的時候因為他還沒有自己獨立的一些能力到6歲上國小他可能自主能力比較強一點就好一點0到6歲往往很多的家庭父母為了要照顧孩子假設生一個兩個也許兩個就已經沒辦法做雙薪了可能到了第三個那抱歉可能只能一個薪水而已了\n\n07:30.729 --> 07:51.187\n所以那個絕對是非常非常的困難那政府一定要全力的去協助他在這些財政上在整個教育上面可以去做我認為才能夠解套這個問題是的所以我看到了其實你們從2016年開始以及政府在做我們經費已經持續增加但是我認為還是持續做我認為這件事情國家投資資源是非常有意義的\n\n07:51.607 --> 08:08.164\n一來我們把外來的好的勞動力拉進來但另一方面我們自己本身的優秀的這些人力要不斷地在下一代不斷地培育出來那這樣才會讓台灣整體的競爭力更加強化好不好我希望國家把他當真的國家當作支持這個孩子是我們的責任的角度來養\n\n08:10.928 --> 08:30.482\n那個計畫的部分我希望再整合一份也給我好不好我希望很快看到你跟院長溝通之後不管是500億的這樣的計畫或是1000億的計畫我希望能夠得到院長的支持那我們希望能夠有效的緩解少子化的問題有效的去讓我們優秀的下一代能夠持續的得到更多的照顧好不好\n\n08:31.810 --> 08:41.560\n主委那那個報告如果你有相關的資料是不是一個月內給我一份資料好不好我去約一下那個院長跟院長那你那整份的規劃的資料也給我一份好嗎好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":8.863,"text":"奈瑞榮委員。」好,謝昭緯,請那個劉主委。請國會劉主委。"},{"start":15.863,"end":36.395,"text":"主委長我想我其實一直在關注這個問題因為我覺得少子化其實是國家的重大問題也是國安問題那國發會其實應該有更強的整合能量來處理這件事情我覺得這也是主委一個很好來幫台灣來幫國家處理好這事的機會我們看到這個趨勢其實是到了2070年剩1584所以"},{"start":39.697,"end":46.988,"text":"而這個還是比較高位數的一個那其實看來會減少到700多甚至到900零3萬我問一下主委你覺得這樣的問題嚴不嚴重"},{"start":50.023,"end":74.605,"text":"我認為非常嚴重尤其是特別影響到未來繳稅跟工作的勞動力會非常可怕包括消費的力道都會下滑所以我認為這個其實是國發會很重要的一個工作各部會但國發會可以扮演比較重要強大的我們看到主委你有幾個孩子我有兩個那你認為為什麼這個少子化台灣的問題會越嚴重就你的觀察跟你自己的經驗"},{"start":76.546,"end":92.392,"text":"我們現在看到有兩個現象一個就是這個大家找不到匹配的對象是目前調查出來的第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力或者是還要同時照顧父母的壓力都同時存在"},{"start":95.813,"end":115.081,"text":"所以我認為有三件事要做第一個協助他養育第二個讓他能夠結婚的人比較能夠早一點拿到社宅或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅然後第三個部分協助他解放他對養育照顧父母的壓力尤其是很多來台北奮鬥的父母在南部他很難理"},{"start":116.722,"end":141.637,"text":"同樣的原因啦在我看來其實因為我自己有三個孩子啦同樣都是你怎麼樣去讓減輕這些年輕的夫妻或是他們本身的壓力讓他們本身如果本身有意願想要生而能夠生而敢生的這個是很重要的原因這裡面有很多面向要去處理但是我覺得這個部分一定要去突破掉不然他兩個人的生活跟他生一個孩子的生活跟生兩個孩子的生活跟生三個孩子的生活是完全不同的"},{"start":142.057,"end":163.828,"text":"包括生育的過程中所要產生的包括生完之後的花費包括他的教養的過程中的托育包括教育等等每個都非常的耗掉相當多的行李跟資源那如果國家在這件事情上給予他更多的支持他就比較有勇氣感去做那如果沒有的話他就比較保守生一個就好或者是跟隨就不一定要生就很多的選擇"},{"start":164.508,"end":193.3,"text":"所以我希望國發會要站在這樣的高度去協助這件事情來推我們來看日本其實也很重視這個問題日本其實已經處理這個問題一段時間了那他們也用這個高度去做處理之前岸田政府的時候也提出了這個對策那我們其實也提出來了0到6歲國家一起養我認為我們現在做的國家一起養就是你國家跟父母一起養啦但我認為現在至少要達到一半以上才叫一起嘛"},{"start":193.976,"end":216.331,"text":"主委你現在覺得我們國家在支撐這些事情上有做到了一半嗎?我們目前是有在做了但是我們今年也增加了預算但當然預算還是卡在立法院那我自己我們有自己在做一個推估假設我們把這個力道再拉大有沒有幫助其實我們問了一下多少有幫助那這個幫助"},{"start":217.712,"end":244.94,"text":"估計的預算大概是五百多億起跳每一年但是如果我們希望這把配套做得好的話我們當時估了一個比較具吸引力的方案大概是一年要增加一千億左右的預算對那這些如果能夠確實來落實的話我認為會很有助於改善因為這一錢就是整個直接用在孩子上就是說我認為國家一起養是其實甚至我認為是國家要來照顧國家應該把所有的孩子當作是他的資產"},{"start":245.76,"end":266.553,"text":"我們看到很多的政府都在努力日本的政府他對於孩子齁這個0到2歲一個月1.5萬日元3到高中畢業18歲一個月1萬瑞典更積極的在於他0到從幾乎是完全支撐了孩子生出來免費教育的部分甚至於這個相關的"},{"start":268.141,"end":290.053,"text":"這些甚至營養午餐等等就是說瑞典的一些國家當然是比較福利的國家他們幾乎是把孩子當作自己的國家的責任在幫忙在照顧那當然國情不同但是用你這樣的態度我們就稅收也不一樣對但你這樣的態度在處理的時候其實周遭包括企業包括所有人都會感受到政府在重視這件事情而且對於生兒育女是友善的是支持的"},{"start":290.473,"end":308.627,"text":"所以我真的希望用國外高度跟院長來支持不管是五百億或一千億我認為這樣的投入對於將來台灣的整體的競爭力有相當大的幫助主委會繼續朝這個方向來推動嗎我會朝這裡來努力也會找時間跟陳政委的討論這件事情"},{"start":309.467,"end":332.416,"text":"我認為至少初階要做到把0到6歲當作是國家的責任國家來養就也就是說他所出生不管是你一次給了一筆的費用讓他生完之後的這個負擔或者是他0到6歲包括他的托育的過程中包括教育過程中的時候你給予他的支持讓他的經費我現在看有很多的啦你搶這個公立的都不一定搶得到"},{"start":333.356,"end":353.355,"text":"自立的又很貴然後你幾乎要負擔每個月要一萬多塊兩萬塊以上的費用的時候對於每一個生出來的生孩子的父母的壓力都非常沉重的那你這樣當然他更不會那這倒還不包含孩子可能半夜會給你吵醒甚至於很多的各種教養的很多問題那非常的複雜那如果你連最基本的支撐他的力量都沒有把它撐起來的話"},{"start":354.016,"end":376.384,"text":"那他們又怎麼有勇氣於生那剛才也包含你談到了每生一個孩子就多出一個空間出來那你的住宅有沒有辦法給予協助等等很多的桌邊配套你的時間可能必須要更充沛你如果是兩個人的話你的生活你只要上下班就可以但是你要照顧孩子你要提前一個小時把他找起來整理好吃完早餐再送他去學校這學校還是你要能夠負擔得起的學校"},{"start":376.824,"end":392.419,"text":"所以他有整套的方式一定要國家全力的來支持他在經費上面在制度方面給予更大的支持我認為才有辦法去有效去緩解這個問題不然就會如你們表所看的而且有可能不斷的下修不斷的惡化這會是台灣很大很大的問題"},{"start":393.34,"end":411.514,"text":"主委認同這樣的看法我認同我會朝這個地方我們來試著去努力我們來看一下臺灣跟其他國家比我們總協議現在是最後一名的我們跟韓國兩個都非常的對我們只比韓國好一點那日本對那日本都還在努力其實都已經有一些成效我剛剛講到日本都還已經開始在"},{"start":412.615,"end":429.02,"text":"為什麼日本給孩子們每個月給他錢等於他把它當作國家把當作是像他的孩子一樣到18歲前我把你當作孩子幫你父母來養這個孩子我給你相關的一些費用所以我覺得國家用這樣的態度來對待我們所有的孩子們"},{"start":429.66,"end":450.429,"text":"在他的特別是0到6歲要特別給予照顧0到6歲是最辛苦的時候因為他還沒有自己獨立的一些能力到6歲上國小他可能自主能力比較強一點就好一點0到6歲往往很多的家庭父母為了要照顧孩子假設生一個兩個也許兩個就已經沒辦法做雙薪了可能到了第三個那抱歉可能只能一個薪水而已了"},{"start":450.729,"end":471.187,"text":"所以那個絕對是非常非常的困難那政府一定要全力的去協助他在這些財政上在整個教育上面可以去做我認為才能夠解套這個問題是的所以我看到了其實你們從2016年開始以及政府在做我們經費已經持續增加但是我認為還是持續做我認為這件事情國家投資資源是非常有意義的"},{"start":471.607,"end":488.164,"text":"一來我們把外來的好的勞動力拉進來但另一方面我們自己本身的優秀的這些人力要不斷地在下一代不斷地培育出來那這樣才會讓台灣整體的競爭力更加強化好不好我希望國家把他當真的國家當作支持這個孩子是我們的責任的角度來養"},{"start":490.928,"end":510.482,"text":"那個計畫的部分我希望再整合一份也給我好不好我希望很快看到你跟院長溝通之後不管是500億的這樣的計畫或是1000億的計畫我希望能夠得到院長的支持那我們希望能夠有效的緩解少子化的問題有效的去讓我們優秀的下一代能夠持續的得到更多的照顧好不好"},{"start":511.81,"end":521.56,"text":"主委那那個報告如果你有相關的資料是不是一個月內給我一份資料好不好我去約一下那個院長跟院長那你那整份的規劃的資料也給我一份好嗎好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時58分）謝謝召委，請劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委早。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我一直關注這個問題，因為我覺得少子化其實是國家的重大問題，也是國安問題，國發會其實應該有更強的整合能量來處理這件事情，我覺得這也是主委一個很好來幫臺灣、來幫國家處理這事的機會。我們看到這個趨勢到2070年剩1,584萬人，這還是高推估，看來會減少七百多萬、甚至903萬人，請問主委，你覺得這樣的問題嚴不嚴重？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認為非常嚴重，尤其特別影響到未來繳稅和工作的勞動力會非常可怕，包括消費的力道都會下滑。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為這其實是國發會很重要的工作，包括各部會，但國發會可以扮演比較重要、強大的角色。主委有幾個孩子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我有2個。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你認為為什麼臺灣少子化的問題會越來越嚴重？就你的觀察和你自己的經驗。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在看到兩個現象，一個就是大家找不到匹配的對象，這是我們目前調查出來的。第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力，還要同時照顧父母的壓力，同時存在，所以……"],["賴委員瑞隆：匹配是另外一件事情啦！結婚那個是另外一件事情，當然涉及到很多，但我認為……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我認為有三件事要做，第一個，協助他養育。第二個，讓結婚的人能夠早一點拿到社宅，或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅。第三個部分是協助他、解放他對照顧父母的壓力，尤其是很多來臺北奮鬥的，父母在南部，他們的壓力很大。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以同樣的原因啦！在我看來，因為我有3個孩子，同樣都是你怎麼樣去減輕這些年輕夫妻的壓力，讓他們本身有意願想要生而能夠生而敢生。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這是最重要的一件事。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個是很重要的原因，這裡面有很多面向要去處理，我覺得這個部分一定要去突破，不然他兩個人的生活跟他生1個孩子的生活，跟生2個孩子的生活，跟生3個孩子的生活是完全不同的，包括生育過程中、生完之後教養過程中的托育、教育等等，每個階段都耗掉相當多的心力和資源。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果國家在這件事情上給予更多的支持，他就比較有勇氣敢去做，如果沒有的話他就會比較保守，生1個就好，或者是乾脆不一定要生，就有很多的選擇，所以我是希望國發會要站在這樣的高度去協助這件事情的推動。","我們看到日本也很重視這個問題，日本已經處理這個問題一段時間了，他們也用整個高度去做處理，之前岸田政府的時候也提出了對策。我們其實也提出來了，0到6歲國家一起養，國家一起養就是國家和父母一起養，但我認為現在至少要達到一半以上才叫一起嘛！主委，你覺得我們國家在支撐這些事情上，有做到一半了嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們目前是有在做，今年也有增加預算，當然預算還卡在立法院，不過我們自己有做一個推估，假設把這個力道再拉大有沒有幫助？其實我們問了一下是多少有幫助，那這個幫助估計的預算大概是五百多億起跳。"],["賴委員瑞隆：五百多億。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：每一年。但是如果希望再把配套做好的話，我們當時估了一個比較具吸引力的方案，大概一年要增加1,000億左右的預算。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，這些如果能夠確實落實，我認為會很有助於改善，因為這些錢是直接用在孩子身上。我認為國家一起養，甚至我認為是國家要來照顧，國家應該把所有的孩子當作是它的資產，我們看到很多的政府都在努力。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：日本的政府對於孩子，0到2歲1個月1.5萬日圓，3歲到高中畢業18歲1個月1萬日圓；瑞典更積極，幾乎是完全支撐了孩子生出來免費教育的部分，甚至於營養午餐等等，像瑞典這些比較福利的國家，幾乎是把孩子當作國家的責任在幫忙照顧，當然國情不同，但是用你這樣的態度的時候，其實……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們的稅收也不一樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，但你用這樣的態度在處理的時候，其實周遭，包括企業，包括所有人都會感受到政府有在重視這件事情，而且對於生兒育女是友善的、是支持的，所以我真的希望用國發會的高度和院長一起來支持，不管是500億或1,000億，我認為這樣的投入對於將來臺灣的整體競爭力有相當大的幫助，主委會繼續朝這個方向來推動嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我會朝這裡來努力，也會找時間跟陳政委討論這件事情。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為至少初階要做到把0到6歲當作是國家的責任，國家來養，不管你是一次給一筆費用讓他生完之後的負擔減輕，或者是0到6歲，包括在托育的過程中，包括在教育的過程中，你給予他的支持。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我現在看有很多現象，家長搶公立托育都不一定搶得到，私立的又很貴，幾乎每個月要負擔1萬多塊、2萬塊以上費用的時候，對於每個生孩子的父母來說，壓力非常沉重，這樣當然他更不會想生，這都還不包含孩子可能半夜會把你吵醒，甚至於各種教養的問題，那非常地複雜，如果你連最基本支撐他的力量都沒有撐起來的話，他們又怎麼有勇氣去生？","包括你剛才談到的，每生一個孩子就多一個空間出來，你的住宅有沒有辦法給予協助等等，要很多的周邊配套，包括你的時間必須要更充沛，如果是兩個人的話，你的生活只要上下班就可以，但是要照顧孩子，就要提前1個小時把他整理好，吃完早餐再送他去學校，這個學校還是你要能夠負擔得起的學校，所以這有整套的方式，一定要國家全力在經費上面、在制度方面給予更大的支持，我認為這樣才有辦法有效緩解這個問題，不然就會如你們的表所寫的，有可能不斷地下修、不斷地惡化，這會是臺灣很大很大的問題，主委認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認同，我們會朝這個地方試著去努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們來看一下，臺灣跟其他國家比，我們的總生育率現在是最後一名，我們跟韓國兩個都非常差。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們只比韓國好一點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，日本還在努力，其實也已經有一些成效，我剛剛講日本已經開始在處理，為什麼日本每個月給孩子錢？等於國家把他當作是自己的孩子一樣，到18歲以前我把你當作孩子，幫父母來養這個孩子，我給你相關的一些費用。我覺得國家要用這樣的態度來對待所有的孩子們，特別是0到6歲要特別給予照顧，0到6歲是最辛苦的時候，因為他還沒有自己獨立的一些能力，到6歲上國小，可能自主能力比較強就會好一點。","往往很多的家庭，父母為了要照顧孩子，假設生1個、2個，也許2個就已經沒辦法雙薪了，到了第3個，那抱歉，可能只能1個薪水而已了，所以那個絕對是非常非常地困難，政府一定要全力去協助他，在財政上、在整個教育上面給予協助，我認為才能夠解套這個問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看到你們從2016年就已經開始在做，經費也持續增加，但是我認為還是要持續做，因為國家對這件事情投入資源是非常有意義的，一來我們把外來好的勞動力拉進來，另外一方面我們本身的優秀人力要在下一代不斷地培育出來，這樣才會讓臺灣整體的競爭力更加強化，好不好？我希望國家把孩子當作是我們的責任的角度來養。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：至於計畫的部分，我希望再整合一份給我，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望很快看到你跟院長溝通之後，不管是500億的計畫或是1,000億的計畫，希望能夠得到院長的支持，我們能夠有效地緩解少子化的問題，有效地讓我們優秀的下一代能夠持續得到更多的照顧，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，那個報告如果你有相關的資料，是不是1個月內給我一份資料，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我去約一下院長跟政委的時間。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你那一整份規劃的資料也給我一份，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，主委請回座。","下一位質詢請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}}