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\"start\": 559.157, \"end\": 559.197, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 559.197, \"end\": 559.217, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 559.217, \"end\": 559.237, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 559.237, \"end\": 559.337, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 559.337, \"end\": 559.357, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 559.357, \"end\": 559.457, \"score\": 0.02}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 559.457, \"end\": 559.477, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 559.477, \"end\": 559.497, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 559.497, \"end\": 559.517, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 559.517, \"end\": 559.737, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 559.737, \"end\": 559.937, \"score\": 0.58}, {\"word\": \"敵\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 559.937, \"end\": 560.198, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 560.198, \"end\": 560.238, \"score\": 0.294}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 560.238, \"end\": 560.278, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 560.278, \"end\": 560.298, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 560.298, \"end\": 560.318, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 560.318, \"end\": 560.338, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 560.338, \"end\": 560.358, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 573.149, \"end\": 573.349, \"text\": \"馬文君\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 573.149, \"end\": 573.329, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 573.329, \"end\": 573.349, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 593.706, \"end\": 599.289, \"text\": \"你現在買的這六型沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 593.706, \"end\": 593.966, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 593.966, \"end\": 593.986, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"買\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 593.986, \"end\": 594.246, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 594.246, \"end\": 594.386, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 594.386, \"end\": 594.446, \"score\": 0.147}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 594.446, \"end\": 594.466, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 594.466, \"end\": 594.586, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 594.586, \"end\": 594.606, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 594.606, \"end\": 594.626, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 594.626, \"end\": 594.687, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"艦\"}, {\"word\": \"載\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 594.687, \"end\": 594.707, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 594.707, \"end\": 594.827, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 594.827, \"end\": 594.847, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 594.847, \"end\": 594.867, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 594.867, \"end\": 594.887, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 594.887, \"end\": 594.967, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 594.967, \"end\": 594.987, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 594.987, \"end\": 595.047, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 595.047, \"end\": 595.067, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 595.067, \"end\": 595.427, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 595.427, \"end\": 595.607, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 595.607, \"end\": 595.627, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 595.627, \"end\": 595.927, \"score\": 0.63}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 595.927, \"end\": 595.947, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 595.947, \"end\": 596.107, \"score\": 0.638}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 596.107, \"end\": 596.347, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"抗\", \"start\": 596.347, \"end\": 596.547, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"八\", \"start\": 596.547, \"end\": 596.567, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 596.567, \"end\": 596.587, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 596.587, \"end\": 597.008, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"抗\", \"start\": 597.008, \"end\": 597.028, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 597.028, \"end\": 597.148, \"score\": 0.556}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 597.148, \"end\": 597.288, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 597.288, \"end\": 597.308, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 597.308, \"end\": 597.528, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 597.528, \"end\": 597.688, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 597.688, \"end\": 597.788, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 597.788, \"end\": 597.928, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 597.928, \"end\": 598.028, \"score\": 0.612}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 598.028, \"end\": 598.048, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 598.048, 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{\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1000.947, \"end\": 1001.247, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 1001.247, \"end\": 1001.387, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1001.387, \"end\": 1001.527, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1001.527, \"end\": 1001.647, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 1001.647, \"end\": 1001.767, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1001.767, \"end\": 1001.788, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:03,130\n馬文君主席麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是馬委好部長好部長我們今天設定的這個無人機的一個議題因為未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色\n\n2\n00:00:26,397 --> 00:00:53,551\n因為國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展有各類的無人機包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞鴛、騰雲、艦翔還有雄飛彈等等其實非常的多那它出估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上那在國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機\n\n3\n00:00:54,651 --> 00:00:56,718\n也花費了國防預算至少800億以上\n\n4\n00:00:58,763 --> 00:00:59,183\n國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機\n\n5\n00:01:27,246 --> 00:01:46,015\n其實過去中科院我剛剛提到的這些中科院過去在科研發展的各類堅真型無人機跟國軍現在跟無人機國家隊就是民間購置的這些無人機它的堅真功能其實基本上都是重複的\n\n6\n00:01:47,557 --> 00:01:58,846\n另外,美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型還有研發中的二型其實也很類似,不是嗎?現在目前是這樣嘛,對不對?\n\n7\n00:02:01,867 --> 00:02:21,305\n跟委員報告就是說我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略就是說我們當然外購可以取得但是現在就是說包括美方也好他也是鼓勵我們就是說我們要建立自主的產能因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候我們的自主產能是很重要所以要雙軌來進行所以我剛剛說了我們中科院長期以來\n\n8\n00:02:25,849 --> 00:02:34,372\n不管是在科研不管是在自製上面我剛剛提到將近千億的預算其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊那這個在需要的時候我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候其實它就有自主性而且我剛剛特別提到其實它跟我們現在軍用商規我們跟國家對採購的這些其實它的重複性很高甚至\n\n9\n00:02:52,918 --> 00:02:58,500\n我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分所以我們不曉得而且我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎我們一直說不管飛機也好不管船艦也好甚至像這個無人機或者其他的部分我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎可是我們現在顯然不是包括我們無人機國家隊有很多他們現在其實我們那幾家廠商他們本身有生產線嗎\n\n10\n00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:24,812\n他幾乎都是組裝線他也都是從國外買來的不管你是從以色列從其他國家這些地方買來然後來組裝可是他到底有沒有符合我們需求簡單來說在2022年的時候我們對國人很大聲的宣誓\n\n11\n00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:57,365\n就是說我們已經接近測試完成的很多很多的無人機的機型包括像瑞元二型他是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的這個旗手無人機作為參考那他也具備偵打一體的能力可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈\n\n12\n00:04:00,686 --> 00:04:09,793\n那紅雀3也可以說做人臉辨識他有這樣的能力而且可以追蹤可以擊殺有自主執行任務的能力這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好的時候為什麼我們大筆的預算用在跟他的使用性能\n\n13\n00:04:28,366 --> 00:04:39,760\n不見得那麼明顯的情況之下很多測試沒有過他是不是符合我們的作戰需求我們也不知道可是你已經研發這麼久甚至都已經測試通過的我們卻不用這個原因是什麼\n\n14\n00:04:43,403 --> 00:04:50,466\n我想研發的這個政策上面的一些調整是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的簡單說明就好了就是說你你比這些無人機國家對差在哪裡為什麼中科院也花了那麼多錢而且現在已經在生產使用的我們卻摒棄不用而要臨時再去編大筆的預算不管是從國外採購也好當然美國他有他的\n\n15\n00:05:06,974 --> 00:05:07,014\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n16\n00:05:28,069 --> 00:05:55,968\n委員第一個就是中科院跟民間軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別不要說軍規商規你就是你如果好用你現在都已經可以量產那個軍規或者軍用你當然是越好然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的是對我們有幫助的啊你不是在幫其他的做設想其他的理由啊所以我們的差在哪裡好好好讓你說差在哪裡\n\n17\n00:05:57,429 --> 00:06:12,134\n我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產他的無人機的產線去鋪陳他的產線就是希望他們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立\n\n18\n00:06:12,554 --> 00:06:35,839\n無人機國家隊裡面有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎?就是你的配合廠商我剛剛念了很多醒的那些部分你不管尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等跟你配合的廠商裡面這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面有沒有?有,中光電中光電,除了中光電其他都沒有?其他目前\n\n19\n00:06:39,005 --> 00:06:44,369\n所以其他的能量是怎麼樣你包括有做瑞淵還有藤雲現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席那他的總經理叫做馬萬鈞馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的他那時候研發藤雲他那時候我們去參訪的時候我們去考察的時候他告訴我們藤雲非常非常好而且還可以掛蛋未來還可以做什麼什麼樣的利用\n\n20\n00:07:04,145 --> 00:07:31,199\n那是從中科院到漢翔現在站總經理的職務的人那未來漢翔也會投入這個部分所以我想你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些可是你顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方他甚至他所有的規格都比較好好我現在請教一下我們建載型無人機\n\n21\n00:07:32,812 --> 00:07:40,991\n還有我們陸用偕征的無人機他們的規格有沒有比瑞淵好\n\n22\n00:07:42,613 --> 00:08:06,435\n我想在請中科院回答之前我先說明一下因為我們現在根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗我們還是在開啟高低配的一個方式不是就全部都要採用非常昂貴的這種軍規的一個系統它顯示很多商規的這個部分只要盛產大量的情況之下事實上也足以達到這個部隊的戰力建構的目的我只是先做這樣\n\n23\n00:08:08,497 --> 00:08:30,307\n我們同意現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜那我們在高低配我先把它講完因為我們有做了就從過去我們研發的這些無人機上面來看它有一些比較貴可是它的功能是不一樣比如說建載型無人機我們台灣的平均風力尤其在秋冬的時候它甚至高達\n\n24\n00:08:32,189 --> 00:08:54,048\n6、7級平均風力其實都是在6、7級可是我們的商櫃無人機全部都只是在6級以下為什麼瑞淵要達到8級它一定有它的原因它剛開始在用的時候一下子就摔掉一半以上它不斷的研發就是符合我們自己作戰的需求可是你現在商櫃裡面沒有一行是可以抗這樣的風力的\n\n25\n00:08:55,029 --> 00:08:57,532\n我們台灣周邊這麼大的風然後你沒有辦法去執行政務的時候那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼這是第一點第二點就是我剛剛說的你可以高低配可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分就是軍規軍用的部分其實我們已經看到他的\n\n26\n00:09:13,031 --> 00:09:20,358\n整個預算全部都因為被排擠他根本沒有排進去你買的全部都是用商規的所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道說到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛你做什麼樣而且全部都針尖的你都知道我的敵人在那裡我現在看過去我知道我的敵人在前面然後呢\n\n27\n00:09:33,149 --> 00:09:33,349\n馬文君\n\n28\n00:09:53,706 --> 00:09:59,289\n你現在買的這六型沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了\n\n29\n00:10:18,798 --> 00:10:37,711\n所以我們現在要提出來就是說你現在買的都是買商規的然後都是針尖型的完全沒有辦法攻擊我知道敵人在那裡我看到他要攻擊我的可是我對他一點辦法都沒有這是我們要特別提出來探討的就我們在預算的分配上面我們不是那麼多可是你應該要怎麼樣配置剛剛部長也提到了你要高低配嘛\n\n30\n00:10:41,494 --> 00:10:46,376\n你應該可以有功能的你也要採購阿而且他是我們國家花很多錢下去去研發出來的而且你都已經測試通過了結果你不用阿你去用這些沒有不用阿阿你目前沒有編錢阿因為在112年沒有在112年的時候已經告訴我們如果通過以後那時候是省融金\n\n31\n00:11:03,284 --> 00:11:12,035\n副部長他結合所有的包括經濟部包括國科會包括中科院包括國防部這些單位大家一起共同去督導這樣子的一個無人機的團隊所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡我們接下來\n\n32\n00:11:18,943 --> 00:11:27,154\n這個部分我請部長再去做全班的考量好不好也許你過去可能有的我們希望中科院的院長因為過去你來報建祥你來報其他的無人機的發展的時候在戰規師的時候其實你是怎麼說的\n\n33\n00:11:34,062 --> 00:12:00,528\n你應該也要好好的讓我們現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在無人機的過去現在跟未來這個部分我們希望還可以有後面有一些討論的空間因為現在預算也剛在用而已那已經買的我們希望後來趕快把它補足不然我們現在看起來很危險那就這個部分我再請教的就是第二個我們在民雄園區我們中科院跟\n\n34\n00:12:03,689 --> 00:12:05,072\n軍備局到底是什麼角色民雄園區整個由中科院來做規劃和設計為什麼中科院的強項是什麼\n\n35\n00:12:16,667 --> 00:12:39,187\n中科院的強項當國家賦予中科院最大的任務希望中科院他做的是什麼而且我們還特別通過法律讓中科院法人化你不用透過政府採購法你可以運用更多的一個管道去吸收人才那是我們法人化的原因可是你今天中科院現在在無人機的園區你扮演什麼樣的角色\n\n36\n00:12:43,171 --> 00:12:45,333\n你是國科會嗎?你是經濟部嗎?你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區而且中科院買了第一個園區臺體大嘉義的那個廢校的時候我們花了二十幾億去買那個園區那時候是要做我們航太飛機還有引擎還有風動的一個測試場\n\n37\n00:13:04,329 --> 00:13:11,573\n那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區所以中科院花錢買了你現在又編了60幾億未來要買這個土地以外還要蓋廠房廠棚還要把它全部設置完成以後給所有的無人機公司然後進駐甚至我們是租給他而已我們為什麼為這些無人機的廠商做這麼多我現在只要知道我們中科院對於我們\n\n38\n00:13:32,245 --> 00:13:33,906\n你原來要做什麼?你原來買臺體大的廢校的園區20幾公頃你本來要做什麼?\n\n39\n00:13:51,477 --> 00:14:05,344\n委員臺體大那個廢校園區不是...那是中科院買的就是現在的你原來現在目前有的那塊土地就是跟臺體大買的也是中科院的就是中科院現在這塊我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源你當初買的時候我剛剛講過功能接下來我說我現在只要你告訴大家我們中科院你的強項是什麼你設置的目的是什麼\n\n40\n00:14:18,391 --> 00:14:20,854\n我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼AI算力中心還有測試規劃\n\n41\n00:14:39,332 --> 00:14:39,512\n馬文君\n\n42\n00:15:09,372 --> 00:15:09,552\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n43\n00:15:26,923 --> 00:15:46,556\n我們的強項我們過去我們一直希望我們應該讓我們自己發展得更好所以你買那個園區當時對於封凍的設置或什麼其實你就是你現在要把它改成低速的封凍欸你現在以前是因為你沒有場地所以中科院請記住當時國家賦予給你而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費還有讓你要做的事情\n\n44\n00:15:53,881 --> 00:16:13,430\n是為我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力其他的事情該經濟部的該國科會的大家分工負責我相信部長一定也會認同因為過去他的夫人也是我們經濟部的部長當時在提這個的時候那時候的部長就是王部長\n\n45\n00:16:14,130 --> 00:16:41,788\n所以我們希望大家各司其職讓我們的國家更好你產業發展我們沒有意見你軍民合作我們也沒有意見可是你必須把你的角色扮演好因為不然會讓我們覺得說你用法人化的這樣子的一個框架去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會好不好是謝謝委員知道其他的我們希望透過有一些書面資料再提供給我們謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t3130\t馬文君主席麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是馬委好部長好部長我們今天設定的這個無人機的一個議題因為未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色\n26397\t53551\t因為國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展有各類的無人機包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞鴛、騰雲、艦翔還有雄飛彈等等其實非常的多那它出估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上那在國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機\n54651\t56718\t也花費了國防預算至少800億以上\n58763\t59183\t國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機\n87246\t106015\t其實過去中科院我剛剛提到的這些中科院過去在科研發展的各類堅真型無人機跟國軍現在跟無人機國家隊就是民間購置的這些無人機它的堅真功能其實基本上都是重複的\n107557\t118846\t另外,美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型還有研發中的二型其實也很類似,不是嗎?現在目前是這樣嘛,對不對?\n121867\t141305\t跟委員報告就是說我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略就是說我們當然外購可以取得但是現在就是說包括美方也好他也是鼓勵我們就是說我們要建立自主的產能因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候我們的自主產能是很重要所以要雙軌來進行所以我剛剛說了我們中科院長期以來\n145849\t154372\t不管是在科研不管是在自製上面我剛剛提到將近千億的預算其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊那這個在需要的時候我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候其實它就有自主性而且我剛剛特別提到其實它跟我們現在軍用商規我們跟國家對採購的這些其實它的重複性很高甚至\n172918\t178500\t我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分所以我們不曉得而且我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎我們一直說不管飛機也好不管船艦也好甚至像這個無人機或者其他的部分我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎可是我們現在顯然不是包括我們無人機國家隊有很多他們現在其實我們那幾家廠商他們本身有生產線嗎\n201690\t204812\t他幾乎都是組裝線他也都是從國外買來的不管你是從以色列從其他國家這些地方買來然後來組裝可是他到底有沒有符合我們需求簡單來說在2022年的時候我們對國人很大聲的宣誓\n220640\t237365\t就是說我們已經接近測試完成的很多很多的無人機的機型包括像瑞元二型他是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的這個旗手無人機作為參考那他也具備偵打一體的能力可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈\n240686\t249793\t那紅雀3也可以說做人臉辨識他有這樣的能力而且可以追蹤可以擊殺有自主執行任務的能力這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好的時候為什麼我們大筆的預算用在跟他的使用性能\n268366\t279760\t不見得那麼明顯的情況之下很多測試沒有過他是不是符合我們的作戰需求我們也不知道可是你已經研發這麼久甚至都已經測試通過的我們卻不用這個原因是什麼\n283403\t290466\t我想研發的這個政策上面的一些調整是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的簡單說明就好了就是說你你比這些無人機國家對差在哪裡為什麼中科院也花了那麼多錢而且現在已經在生產使用的我們卻摒棄不用而要臨時再去編大筆的預算不管是從國外採購也好當然美國他有他的\n306974\t307014\t﹚馬文君﹚\n328069\t355968\t委員第一個就是中科院跟民間軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別不要說軍規商規你就是你如果好用你現在都已經可以量產那個軍規或者軍用你當然是越好然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的是對我們有幫助的啊你不是在幫其他的做設想其他的理由啊所以我們的差在哪裡好好好讓你說差在哪裡\n357429\t372134\t我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產他的無人機的產線去鋪陳他的產線就是希望他們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立\n372554\t395839\t無人機國家隊裡面有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎?就是你的配合廠商我剛剛念了很多醒的那些部分你不管尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等跟你配合的廠商裡面這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面有沒有?有,中光電中光電,除了中光電其他都沒有?其他目前\n399005\t404369\t所以其他的能量是怎麼樣你包括有做瑞淵還有藤雲現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席那他的總經理叫做馬萬鈞馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的他那時候研發藤雲他那時候我們去參訪的時候我們去考察的時候他告訴我們藤雲非常非常好而且還可以掛蛋未來還可以做什麼什麼樣的利用\n424145\t451199\t那是從中科院到漢翔現在站總經理的職務的人那未來漢翔也會投入這個部分所以我想你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些可是你顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方他甚至他所有的規格都比較好好我現在請教一下我們建載型無人機\n452812\t460991\t還有我們陸用偕征的無人機他們的規格有沒有比瑞淵好\n462613\t486435\t我想在請中科院回答之前我先說明一下因為我們現在根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗我們還是在開啟高低配的一個方式不是就全部都要採用非常昂貴的這種軍規的一個系統它顯示很多商規的這個部分只要盛產大量的情況之下事實上也足以達到這個部隊的戰力建構的目的我只是先做這樣\n488497\t510307\t我們同意現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜那我們在高低配我先把它講完因為我們有做了就從過去我們研發的這些無人機上面來看它有一些比較貴可是它的功能是不一樣比如說建載型無人機我們台灣的平均風力尤其在秋冬的時候它甚至高達\n512189\t534048\t6、7級平均風力其實都是在6、7級可是我們的商櫃無人機全部都只是在6級以下為什麼瑞淵要達到8級它一定有它的原因它剛開始在用的時候一下子就摔掉一半以上它不斷的研發就是符合我們自己作戰的需求可是你現在商櫃裡面沒有一行是可以抗這樣的風力的\n535029\t537532\t我們台灣周邊這麼大的風然後你沒有辦法去執行政務的時候那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼這是第一點第二點就是我剛剛說的你可以高低配可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分就是軍規軍用的部分其實我們已經看到他的\n553031\t560358\t整個預算全部都因為被排擠他根本沒有排進去你買的全部都是用商規的所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道說到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛你做什麼樣而且全部都針尖的你都知道我的敵人在那裡我現在看過去我知道我的敵人在前面然後呢\n573149\t573349\t馬文君\n593706\t599289\t你現在買的這六型沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了\n618798\t637711\t所以我們現在要提出來就是說你現在買的都是買商規的然後都是針尖型的完全沒有辦法攻擊我知道敵人在那裡我看到他要攻擊我的可是我對他一點辦法都沒有這是我們要特別提出來探討的就我們在預算的分配上面我們不是那麼多可是你應該要怎麼樣配置剛剛部長也提到了你要高低配嘛\n641494\t646376\t你應該可以有功能的你也要採購阿而且他是我們國家花很多錢下去去研發出來的而且你都已經測試通過了結果你不用阿你去用這些沒有不用阿阿你目前沒有編錢阿因為在112年沒有在112年的時候已經告訴我們如果通過以後那時候是省融金\n663284\t672035\t副部長他結合所有的包括經濟部包括國科會包括中科院包括國防部這些單位大家一起共同去督導這樣子的一個無人機的團隊所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡我們接下來\n678943\t687154\t這個部分我請部長再去做全班的考量好不好也許你過去可能有的我們希望中科院的院長因為過去你來報建祥你來報其他的無人機的發展的時候在戰規師的時候其實你是怎麼說的\n694062\t720528\t你應該也要好好的讓我們現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在無人機的過去現在跟未來這個部分我們希望還可以有後面有一些討論的空間因為現在預算也剛在用而已那已經買的我們希望後來趕快把它補足不然我們現在看起來很危險那就這個部分我再請教的就是第二個我們在民雄園區我們中科院跟\n723689\t725072\t軍備局到底是什麼角色民雄園區整個由中科院來做規劃和設計為什麼中科院的強項是什麼\n736667\t759187\t中科院的強項當國家賦予中科院最大的任務希望中科院他做的是什麼而且我們還特別通過法律讓中科院法人化你不用透過政府採購法你可以運用更多的一個管道去吸收人才那是我們法人化的原因可是你今天中科院現在在無人機的園區你扮演什麼樣的角色\n763171\t765333\t你是國科會嗎?你是經濟部嗎?你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區而且中科院買了第一個園區臺體大嘉義的那個廢校的時候我們花了二十幾億去買那個園區那時候是要做我們航太飛機還有引擎還有風動的一個測試場\n784329\t791573\t那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區所以中科院花錢買了你現在又編了60幾億未來要買這個土地以外還要蓋廠房廠棚還要把它全部設置完成以後給所有的無人機公司然後進駐甚至我們是租給他而已我們為什麼為這些無人機的廠商做這麼多我現在只要知道我們中科院對於我們\n812245\t813906\t你原來要做什麼?你原來買臺體大的廢校的園區20幾公頃你本來要做什麼?\n831477\t845344\t委員臺體大那個廢校園區不是...那是中科院買的就是現在的你原來現在目前有的那塊土地就是跟臺體大買的也是中科院的就是中科院現在這塊我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源你當初買的時候我剛剛講過功能接下來我說我現在只要你告訴大家我們中科院你的強項是什麼你設置的目的是什麼\n858391\t860854\t我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼AI算力中心還有測試規劃\n879332\t879512\t馬文君\n909372\t909552\t﹚馬文君﹚\n926923\t946556\t我們的強項我們過去我們一直希望我們應該讓我們自己發展得更好所以你買那個園區當時對於封凍的設置或什麼其實你就是你現在要把它改成低速的封凍欸你現在以前是因為你沒有場地所以中科院請記住當時國家賦予給你而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費還有讓你要做的事情\n953881\t973430\t是為我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力其他的事情該經濟部的該國科會的大家分工負責我相信部長一定也會認同因為過去他的夫人也是我們經濟部的部長當時在提這個的時候那時候的部長就是王部長\n974130\t1001788\t所以我們希望大家各司其職讓我們的國家更好你產業發展我們沒有意見你軍民合作我們也沒有意見可是你必須把你的角色扮演好因為不然會讓我們覺得說你用法人化的這樣子的一個框架去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會好不好是謝謝委員知道其他的我們希望透過有一些書面資料再提供給我們謝謝\n","txt":"馬文君主席麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是馬委好部長好部長我們今天設定的這個無人機的一個議題因為未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色\n因為國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展有各類的無人機包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞鴛、騰雲、艦翔還有雄飛彈等等其實非常的多那它出估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上那在國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機\n也花費了國防預算至少800億以上\n國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機\n其實過去中科院我剛剛提到的這些中科院過去在科研發展的各類堅真型無人機跟國軍現在跟無人機國家隊就是民間購置的這些無人機它的堅真功能其實基本上都是重複的\n另外,美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型還有研發中的二型其實也很類似,不是嗎?現在目前是這樣嘛,對不對?\n跟委員報告就是說我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略就是說我們當然外購可以取得但是現在就是說包括美方也好他也是鼓勵我們就是說我們要建立自主的產能因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候我們的自主產能是很重要所以要雙軌來進行所以我剛剛說了我們中科院長期以來\n不管是在科研不管是在自製上面我剛剛提到將近千億的預算其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊那這個在需要的時候我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候其實它就有自主性而且我剛剛特別提到其實它跟我們現在軍用商規我們跟國家對採購的這些其實它的重複性很高甚至\n我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分所以我們不曉得而且我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎我們一直說不管飛機也好不管船艦也好甚至像這個無人機或者其他的部分我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎可是我們現在顯然不是包括我們無人機國家隊有很多他們現在其實我們那幾家廠商他們本身有生產線嗎\n他幾乎都是組裝線他也都是從國外買來的不管你是從以色列從其他國家這些地方買來然後來組裝可是他到底有沒有符合我們需求簡單來說在2022年的時候我們對國人很大聲的宣誓\n就是說我們已經接近測試完成的很多很多的無人機的機型包括像瑞元二型他是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的這個旗手無人機作為參考那他也具備偵打一體的能力可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈\n那紅雀3也可以說做人臉辨識他有這樣的能力而且可以追蹤可以擊殺有自主執行任務的能力這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好的時候為什麼我們大筆的預算用在跟他的使用性能\n不見得那麼明顯的情況之下很多測試沒有過他是不是符合我們的作戰需求我們也不知道可是你已經研發這麼久甚至都已經測試通過的我們卻不用這個原因是什麼\n我想研發的這個政策上面的一些調整是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的簡單說明就好了就是說你你比這些無人機國家對差在哪裡為什麼中科院也花了那麼多錢而且現在已經在生產使用的我們卻摒棄不用而要臨時再去編大筆的預算不管是從國外採購也好當然美國他有他的\n﹚馬文君﹚\n委員第一個就是中科院跟民間軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別不要說軍規商規你就是你如果好用你現在都已經可以量產那個軍規或者軍用你當然是越好然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的是對我們有幫助的啊你不是在幫其他的做設想其他的理由啊所以我們的差在哪裡好好好讓你說差在哪裡\n我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產他的無人機的產線去鋪陳他的產線就是希望他們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立\n無人機國家隊裡面有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎?就是你的配合廠商我剛剛念了很多醒的那些部分你不管尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等跟你配合的廠商裡面這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面有沒有?有,中光電中光電,除了中光電其他都沒有?其他目前\n所以其他的能量是怎麼樣你包括有做瑞淵還有藤雲現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席那他的總經理叫做馬萬鈞馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的他那時候研發藤雲他那時候我們去參訪的時候我們去考察的時候他告訴我們藤雲非常非常好而且還可以掛蛋未來還可以做什麼什麼樣的利用\n那是從中科院到漢翔現在站總經理的職務的人那未來漢翔也會投入這個部分所以我想你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些可是你顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方他甚至他所有的規格都比較好好我現在請教一下我們建載型無人機\n還有我們陸用偕征的無人機他們的規格有沒有比瑞淵好\n我想在請中科院回答之前我先說明一下因為我們現在根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗我們還是在開啟高低配的一個方式不是就全部都要採用非常昂貴的這種軍規的一個系統它顯示很多商規的這個部分只要盛產大量的情況之下事實上也足以達到這個部隊的戰力建構的目的我只是先做這樣\n我們同意現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜那我們在高低配我先把它講完因為我們有做了就從過去我們研發的這些無人機上面來看它有一些比較貴可是它的功能是不一樣比如說建載型無人機我們台灣的平均風力尤其在秋冬的時候它甚至高達\n6、7級平均風力其實都是在6、7級可是我們的商櫃無人機全部都只是在6級以下為什麼瑞淵要達到8級它一定有它的原因它剛開始在用的時候一下子就摔掉一半以上它不斷的研發就是符合我們自己作戰的需求可是你現在商櫃裡面沒有一行是可以抗這樣的風力的\n我們台灣周邊這麼大的風然後你沒有辦法去執行政務的時候那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼這是第一點第二點就是我剛剛說的你可以高低配可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分就是軍規軍用的部分其實我們已經看到他的\n整個預算全部都因為被排擠他根本沒有排進去你買的全部都是用商規的所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道說到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛你做什麼樣而且全部都針尖的你都知道我的敵人在那裡我現在看過去我知道我的敵人在前面然後呢\n馬文君\n你現在買的這六型沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了\n所以我們現在要提出來就是說你現在買的都是買商規的然後都是針尖型的完全沒有辦法攻擊我知道敵人在那裡我看到他要攻擊我的可是我對他一點辦法都沒有這是我們要特別提出來探討的就我們在預算的分配上面我們不是那麼多可是你應該要怎麼樣配置剛剛部長也提到了你要高低配嘛\n你應該可以有功能的你也要採購阿而且他是我們國家花很多錢下去去研發出來的而且你都已經測試通過了結果你不用阿你去用這些沒有不用阿阿你目前沒有編錢阿因為在112年沒有在112年的時候已經告訴我們如果通過以後那時候是省融金\n副部長他結合所有的包括經濟部包括國科會包括中科院包括國防部這些單位大家一起共同去督導這樣子的一個無人機的團隊所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡我們接下來\n這個部分我請部長再去做全班的考量好不好也許你過去可能有的我們希望中科院的院長因為過去你來報建祥你來報其他的無人機的發展的時候在戰規師的時候其實你是怎麼說的\n你應該也要好好的讓我們現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在無人機的過去現在跟未來這個部分我們希望還可以有後面有一些討論的空間因為現在預算也剛在用而已那已經買的我們希望後來趕快把它補足不然我們現在看起來很危險那就這個部分我再請教的就是第二個我們在民雄園區我們中科院跟\n軍備局到底是什麼角色民雄園區整個由中科院來做規劃和設計為什麼中科院的強項是什麼\n中科院的強項當國家賦予中科院最大的任務希望中科院他做的是什麼而且我們還特別通過法律讓中科院法人化你不用透過政府採購法你可以運用更多的一個管道去吸收人才那是我們法人化的原因可是你今天中科院現在在無人機的園區你扮演什麼樣的角色\n你是國科會嗎?你是經濟部嗎?你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區而且中科院買了第一個園區臺體大嘉義的那個廢校的時候我們花了二十幾億去買那個園區那時候是要做我們航太飛機還有引擎還有風動的一個測試場\n那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區所以中科院花錢買了你現在又編了60幾億未來要買這個土地以外還要蓋廠房廠棚還要把它全部設置完成以後給所有的無人機公司然後進駐甚至我們是租給他而已我們為什麼為這些無人機的廠商做這麼多我現在只要知道我們中科院對於我們\n你原來要做什麼?你原來買臺體大的廢校的園區20幾公頃你本來要做什麼?\n委員臺體大那個廢校園區不是...那是中科院買的就是現在的你原來現在目前有的那塊土地就是跟臺體大買的也是中科院的就是中科院現在這塊我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源你當初買的時候我剛剛講過功能接下來我說我現在只要你告訴大家我們中科院你的強項是什麼你設置的目的是什麼\n我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼AI算力中心還有測試規劃\n馬文君\n﹚馬文君﹚\n我們的強項我們過去我們一直希望我們應該讓我們自己發展得更好所以你買那個園區當時對於封凍的設置或什麼其實你就是你現在要把它改成低速的封凍欸你現在以前是因為你沒有場地所以中科院請記住當時國家賦予給你而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費還有讓你要做的事情\n是為我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力其他的事情該經濟部的該國科會的大家分工負責我相信部長一定也會認同因為過去他的夫人也是我們經濟部的部長當時在提這個的時候那時候的部長就是王部長\n所以我們希望大家各司其職讓我們的國家更好你產業發展我們沒有意見你軍民合作我們也沒有意見可是你必須把你的角色扮演好因為不然會讓我們覺得說你用法人化的這樣子的一個框架去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會好不好是謝謝委員知道其他的我們希望透過有一些書面資料再提供給我們謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:03.130\n馬文君主席麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是馬委好部長好部長我們今天設定的這個無人機的一個議題因為未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色\n\n00:26.397 --> 00:53.551\n因為國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展有各類的無人機包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞鴛、騰雲、艦翔還有雄飛彈等等其實非常的多那它出估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上那在國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機\n\n00:54.651 --> 00:56.718\n也花費了國防預算至少800億以上\n\n00:58.763 --> 00:59.183\n國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機\n\n01:27.246 --> 01:46.015\n其實過去中科院我剛剛提到的這些中科院過去在科研發展的各類堅真型無人機跟國軍現在跟無人機國家隊就是民間購置的這些無人機它的堅真功能其實基本上都是重複的\n\n01:47.557 --> 01:58.846\n另外,美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型還有研發中的二型其實也很類似,不是嗎?現在目前是這樣嘛,對不對?\n\n02:01.867 --> 02:21.305\n跟委員報告就是說我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略就是說我們當然外購可以取得但是現在就是說包括美方也好他也是鼓勵我們就是說我們要建立自主的產能因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候我們的自主產能是很重要所以要雙軌來進行所以我剛剛說了我們中科院長期以來\n\n02:25.849 --> 02:34.372\n不管是在科研不管是在自製上面我剛剛提到將近千億的預算其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊那這個在需要的時候我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候其實它就有自主性而且我剛剛特別提到其實它跟我們現在軍用商規我們跟國家對採購的這些其實它的重複性很高甚至\n\n02:52.918 --> 02:58.500\n我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分所以我們不曉得而且我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎我們一直說不管飛機也好不管船艦也好甚至像這個無人機或者其他的部分我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎可是我們現在顯然不是包括我們無人機國家隊有很多他們現在其實我們那幾家廠商他們本身有生產線嗎\n\n03:21.690 --> 03:24.812\n他幾乎都是組裝線他也都是從國外買來的不管你是從以色列從其他國家這些地方買來然後來組裝可是他到底有沒有符合我們需求簡單來說在2022年的時候我們對國人很大聲的宣誓\n\n03:40.640 --> 03:57.365\n就是說我們已經接近測試完成的很多很多的無人機的機型包括像瑞元二型他是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的這個旗手無人機作為參考那他也具備偵打一體的能力可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈\n\n04:00.686 --> 04:09.793\n那紅雀3也可以說做人臉辨識他有這樣的能力而且可以追蹤可以擊殺有自主執行任務的能力這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好的時候為什麼我們大筆的預算用在跟他的使用性能\n\n04:28.366 --> 04:39.760\n不見得那麼明顯的情況之下很多測試沒有過他是不是符合我們的作戰需求我們也不知道可是你已經研發這麼久甚至都已經測試通過的我們卻不用這個原因是什麼\n\n04:43.403 --> 04:50.466\n我想研發的這個政策上面的一些調整是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的簡單說明就好了就是說你你比這些無人機國家對差在哪裡為什麼中科院也花了那麼多錢而且現在已經在生產使用的我們卻摒棄不用而要臨時再去編大筆的預算不管是從國外採購也好當然美國他有他的\n\n05:06.974 --> 05:07.014\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n05:28.069 --> 05:55.968\n委員第一個就是中科院跟民間軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別不要說軍規商規你就是你如果好用你現在都已經可以量產那個軍規或者軍用你當然是越好然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的是對我們有幫助的啊你不是在幫其他的做設想其他的理由啊所以我們的差在哪裡好好好讓你說差在哪裡\n\n05:57.429 --> 06:12.134\n我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產他的無人機的產線去鋪陳他的產線就是希望他們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立\n\n06:12.554 --> 06:35.839\n無人機國家隊裡面有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎?就是你的配合廠商我剛剛念了很多醒的那些部分你不管尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等跟你配合的廠商裡面這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面有沒有?有,中光電中光電,除了中光電其他都沒有?其他目前\n\n06:39.005 --> 06:44.369\n所以其他的能量是怎麼樣你包括有做瑞淵還有藤雲現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席那他的總經理叫做馬萬鈞馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的他那時候研發藤雲他那時候我們去參訪的時候我們去考察的時候他告訴我們藤雲非常非常好而且還可以掛蛋未來還可以做什麼什麼樣的利用\n\n07:04.145 --> 07:31.199\n那是從中科院到漢翔現在站總經理的職務的人那未來漢翔也會投入這個部分所以我想你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些可是你顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方他甚至他所有的規格都比較好好我現在請教一下我們建載型無人機\n\n07:32.812 --> 07:40.991\n還有我們陸用偕征的無人機他們的規格有沒有比瑞淵好\n\n07:42.613 --> 08:06.435\n我想在請中科院回答之前我先說明一下因為我們現在根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗我們還是在開啟高低配的一個方式不是就全部都要採用非常昂貴的這種軍規的一個系統它顯示很多商規的這個部分只要盛產大量的情況之下事實上也足以達到這個部隊的戰力建構的目的我只是先做這樣\n\n08:08.497 --> 08:30.307\n我們同意現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜那我們在高低配我先把它講完因為我們有做了就從過去我們研發的這些無人機上面來看它有一些比較貴可是它的功能是不一樣比如說建載型無人機我們台灣的平均風力尤其在秋冬的時候它甚至高達\n\n08:32.189 --> 08:54.048\n6、7級平均風力其實都是在6、7級可是我們的商櫃無人機全部都只是在6級以下為什麼瑞淵要達到8級它一定有它的原因它剛開始在用的時候一下子就摔掉一半以上它不斷的研發就是符合我們自己作戰的需求可是你現在商櫃裡面沒有一行是可以抗這樣的風力的\n\n08:55.029 --> 08:57.532\n我們台灣周邊這麼大的風然後你沒有辦法去執行政務的時候那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼這是第一點第二點就是我剛剛說的你可以高低配可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分就是軍規軍用的部分其實我們已經看到他的\n\n09:13.031 --> 09:20.358\n整個預算全部都因為被排擠他根本沒有排進去你買的全部都是用商規的所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道說到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛你做什麼樣而且全部都針尖的你都知道我的敵人在那裡我現在看過去我知道我的敵人在前面然後呢\n\n09:33.149 --> 09:33.349\n馬文君\n\n09:53.706 --> 09:59.289\n你現在買的這六型沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了\n\n10:18.798 --> 10:37.711\n所以我們現在要提出來就是說你現在買的都是買商規的然後都是針尖型的完全沒有辦法攻擊我知道敵人在那裡我看到他要攻擊我的可是我對他一點辦法都沒有這是我們要特別提出來探討的就我們在預算的分配上面我們不是那麼多可是你應該要怎麼樣配置剛剛部長也提到了你要高低配嘛\n\n10:41.494 --> 10:46.376\n你應該可以有功能的你也要採購阿而且他是我們國家花很多錢下去去研發出來的而且你都已經測試通過了結果你不用阿你去用這些沒有不用阿阿你目前沒有編錢阿因為在112年沒有在112年的時候已經告訴我們如果通過以後那時候是省融金\n\n11:03.284 --> 11:12.035\n副部長他結合所有的包括經濟部包括國科會包括中科院包括國防部這些單位大家一起共同去督導這樣子的一個無人機的團隊所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡我們接下來\n\n11:18.943 --> 11:27.154\n這個部分我請部長再去做全班的考量好不好也許你過去可能有的我們希望中科院的院長因為過去你來報建祥你來報其他的無人機的發展的時候在戰規師的時候其實你是怎麼說的\n\n11:34.062 --> 12:00.528\n你應該也要好好的讓我們現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在無人機的過去現在跟未來這個部分我們希望還可以有後面有一些討論的空間因為現在預算也剛在用而已那已經買的我們希望後來趕快把它補足不然我們現在看起來很危險那就這個部分我再請教的就是第二個我們在民雄園區我們中科院跟\n\n12:03.689 --> 12:05.072\n軍備局到底是什麼角色民雄園區整個由中科院來做規劃和設計為什麼中科院的強項是什麼\n\n12:16.667 --> 12:39.187\n中科院的強項當國家賦予中科院最大的任務希望中科院他做的是什麼而且我們還特別通過法律讓中科院法人化你不用透過政府採購法你可以運用更多的一個管道去吸收人才那是我們法人化的原因可是你今天中科院現在在無人機的園區你扮演什麼樣的角色\n\n12:43.171 --> 12:45.333\n你是國科會嗎?你是經濟部嗎?你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區而且中科院買了第一個園區臺體大嘉義的那個廢校的時候我們花了二十幾億去買那個園區那時候是要做我們航太飛機還有引擎還有風動的一個測試場\n\n13:04.329 --> 13:11.573\n那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區所以中科院花錢買了你現在又編了60幾億未來要買這個土地以外還要蓋廠房廠棚還要把它全部設置完成以後給所有的無人機公司然後進駐甚至我們是租給他而已我們為什麼為這些無人機的廠商做這麼多我現在只要知道我們中科院對於我們\n\n13:32.245 --> 13:33.906\n你原來要做什麼?你原來買臺體大的廢校的園區20幾公頃你本來要做什麼?\n\n13:51.477 --> 14:05.344\n委員臺體大那個廢校園區不是...那是中科院買的就是現在的你原來現在目前有的那塊土地就是跟臺體大買的也是中科院的就是中科院現在這塊我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源你當初買的時候我剛剛講過功能接下來我說我現在只要你告訴大家我們中科院你的強項是什麼你設置的目的是什麼\n\n14:18.391 --> 14:20.854\n我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼AI算力中心還有測試規劃\n\n14:39.332 --> 14:39.512\n馬文君\n\n15:09.372 --> 15:09.552\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n15:26.923 --> 15:46.556\n我們的強項我們過去我們一直希望我們應該讓我們自己發展得更好所以你買那個園區當時對於封凍的設置或什麼其實你就是你現在要把它改成低速的封凍欸你現在以前是因為你沒有場地所以中科院請記住當時國家賦予給你而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費還有讓你要做的事情\n\n15:53.881 --> 16:13.430\n是為我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力其他的事情該經濟部的該國科會的大家分工負責我相信部長一定也會認同因為過去他的夫人也是我們經濟部的部長當時在提這個的時候那時候的部長就是王部長\n\n16:14.130 --> 16:41.788\n所以我們希望大家各司其職讓我們的國家更好你產業發展我們沒有意見你軍民合作我們也沒有意見可是你必須把你的角色扮演好因為不然會讓我們覺得說你用法人化的這樣子的一個框架去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會好不好是謝謝委員知道其他的我們希望透過有一些書面資料再提供給我們謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":3.13,"text":"馬文君主席麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是馬委好部長好部長我們今天設定的這個無人機的一個議題因為未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色"},{"start":26.397,"end":53.551,"text":"因為國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展有各類的無人機包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞鴛、騰雲、艦翔還有雄飛彈等等其實非常的多那它出估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上那在國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機"},{"start":54.651,"end":56.718,"text":"也花費了國防預算至少800億以上"},{"start":58.763,"end":59.183,"text":"國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機"},{"start":87.246,"end":106.015,"text":"其實過去中科院我剛剛提到的這些中科院過去在科研發展的各類堅真型無人機跟國軍現在跟無人機國家隊就是民間購置的這些無人機它的堅真功能其實基本上都是重複的"},{"start":107.557,"end":118.846,"text":"另外,美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型還有研發中的二型其實也很類似,不是嗎?現在目前是這樣嘛,對不對?"},{"start":121.867,"end":141.305,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略就是說我們當然外購可以取得但是現在就是說包括美方也好他也是鼓勵我們就是說我們要建立自主的產能因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候我們的自主產能是很重要所以要雙軌來進行所以我剛剛說了我們中科院長期以來"},{"start":145.849,"end":154.372,"text":"不管是在科研不管是在自製上面我剛剛提到將近千億的預算其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊那這個在需要的時候我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候其實它就有自主性而且我剛剛特別提到其實它跟我們現在軍用商規我們跟國家對採購的這些其實它的重複性很高甚至"},{"start":172.918,"end":178.5,"text":"我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分所以我們不曉得而且我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎我們一直說不管飛機也好不管船艦也好甚至像這個無人機或者其他的部分我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎可是我們現在顯然不是包括我們無人機國家隊有很多他們現在其實我們那幾家廠商他們本身有生產線嗎"},{"start":201.69,"end":204.812,"text":"他幾乎都是組裝線他也都是從國外買來的不管你是從以色列從其他國家這些地方買來然後來組裝可是他到底有沒有符合我們需求簡單來說在2022年的時候我們對國人很大聲的宣誓"},{"start":220.64,"end":237.365,"text":"就是說我們已經接近測試完成的很多很多的無人機的機型包括像瑞元二型他是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的這個旗手無人機作為參考那他也具備偵打一體的能力可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈"},{"start":240.686,"end":249.793,"text":"那紅雀3也可以說做人臉辨識他有這樣的能力而且可以追蹤可以擊殺有自主執行任務的能力這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好的時候為什麼我們大筆的預算用在跟他的使用性能"},{"start":268.366,"end":279.76,"text":"不見得那麼明顯的情況之下很多測試沒有過他是不是符合我們的作戰需求我們也不知道可是你已經研發這麼久甚至都已經測試通過的我們卻不用這個原因是什麼"},{"start":283.403,"end":290.466,"text":"我想研發的這個政策上面的一些調整是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的簡單說明就好了就是說你你比這些無人機國家對差在哪裡為什麼中科院也花了那麼多錢而且現在已經在生產使用的我們卻摒棄不用而要臨時再去編大筆的預算不管是從國外採購也好當然美國他有他的"},{"start":306.974,"end":307.014,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":328.069,"end":355.968,"text":"委員第一個就是中科院跟民間軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別不要說軍規商規你就是你如果好用你現在都已經可以量產那個軍規或者軍用你當然是越好然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的是對我們有幫助的啊你不是在幫其他的做設想其他的理由啊所以我們的差在哪裡好好好讓你說差在哪裡"},{"start":357.429,"end":372.134,"text":"我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產他的無人機的產線去鋪陳他的產線就是希望他們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立"},{"start":372.554,"end":395.839,"text":"無人機國家隊裡面有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎?就是你的配合廠商我剛剛念了很多醒的那些部分你不管尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等跟你配合的廠商裡面這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面有沒有?有,中光電中光電,除了中光電其他都沒有?其他目前"},{"start":399.005,"end":404.369,"text":"所以其他的能量是怎麼樣你包括有做瑞淵還有藤雲現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席那他的總經理叫做馬萬鈞馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的他那時候研發藤雲他那時候我們去參訪的時候我們去考察的時候他告訴我們藤雲非常非常好而且還可以掛蛋未來還可以做什麼什麼樣的利用"},{"start":424.145,"end":451.199,"text":"那是從中科院到漢翔現在站總經理的職務的人那未來漢翔也會投入這個部分所以我想你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些可是你顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方他甚至他所有的規格都比較好好我現在請教一下我們建載型無人機"},{"start":452.812,"end":460.991,"text":"還有我們陸用偕征的無人機他們的規格有沒有比瑞淵好"},{"start":462.613,"end":486.435,"text":"我想在請中科院回答之前我先說明一下因為我們現在根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗我們還是在開啟高低配的一個方式不是就全部都要採用非常昂貴的這種軍規的一個系統它顯示很多商規的這個部分只要盛產大量的情況之下事實上也足以達到這個部隊的戰力建構的目的我只是先做這樣"},{"start":488.497,"end":510.307,"text":"我們同意現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜那我們在高低配我先把它講完因為我們有做了就從過去我們研發的這些無人機上面來看它有一些比較貴可是它的功能是不一樣比如說建載型無人機我們台灣的平均風力尤其在秋冬的時候它甚至高達"},{"start":512.189,"end":534.048,"text":"6、7級平均風力其實都是在6、7級可是我們的商櫃無人機全部都只是在6級以下為什麼瑞淵要達到8級它一定有它的原因它剛開始在用的時候一下子就摔掉一半以上它不斷的研發就是符合我們自己作戰的需求可是你現在商櫃裡面沒有一行是可以抗這樣的風力的"},{"start":535.029,"end":537.532,"text":"我們台灣周邊這麼大的風然後你沒有辦法去執行政務的時候那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼這是第一點第二點就是我剛剛說的你可以高低配可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分就是軍規軍用的部分其實我們已經看到他的"},{"start":553.031,"end":560.358,"text":"整個預算全部都因為被排擠他根本沒有排進去你買的全部都是用商規的所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道說到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛你做什麼樣而且全部都針尖的你都知道我的敵人在那裡我現在看過去我知道我的敵人在前面然後呢"},{"start":573.149,"end":573.349,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":593.706,"end":599.289,"text":"你現在買的這六型沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了"},{"start":618.798,"end":637.711,"text":"所以我們現在要提出來就是說你現在買的都是買商規的然後都是針尖型的完全沒有辦法攻擊我知道敵人在那裡我看到他要攻擊我的可是我對他一點辦法都沒有這是我們要特別提出來探討的就我們在預算的分配上面我們不是那麼多可是你應該要怎麼樣配置剛剛部長也提到了你要高低配嘛"},{"start":641.494,"end":646.376,"text":"你應該可以有功能的你也要採購阿而且他是我們國家花很多錢下去去研發出來的而且你都已經測試通過了結果你不用阿你去用這些沒有不用阿阿你目前沒有編錢阿因為在112年沒有在112年的時候已經告訴我們如果通過以後那時候是省融金"},{"start":663.284,"end":672.035,"text":"副部長他結合所有的包括經濟部包括國科會包括中科院包括國防部這些單位大家一起共同去督導這樣子的一個無人機的團隊所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡我們接下來"},{"start":678.943,"end":687.154,"text":"這個部分我請部長再去做全班的考量好不好也許你過去可能有的我們希望中科院的院長因為過去你來報建祥你來報其他的無人機的發展的時候在戰規師的時候其實你是怎麼說的"},{"start":694.062,"end":720.528,"text":"你應該也要好好的讓我們現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在無人機的過去現在跟未來這個部分我們希望還可以有後面有一些討論的空間因為現在預算也剛在用而已那已經買的我們希望後來趕快把它補足不然我們現在看起來很危險那就這個部分我再請教的就是第二個我們在民雄園區我們中科院跟"},{"start":723.689,"end":725.072,"text":"軍備局到底是什麼角色民雄園區整個由中科院來做規劃和設計為什麼中科院的強項是什麼"},{"start":736.667,"end":759.187,"text":"中科院的強項當國家賦予中科院最大的任務希望中科院他做的是什麼而且我們還特別通過法律讓中科院法人化你不用透過政府採購法你可以運用更多的一個管道去吸收人才那是我們法人化的原因可是你今天中科院現在在無人機的園區你扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":763.171,"end":765.333,"text":"你是國科會嗎?你是經濟部嗎?你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區而且中科院買了第一個園區臺體大嘉義的那個廢校的時候我們花了二十幾億去買那個園區那時候是要做我們航太飛機還有引擎還有風動的一個測試場"},{"start":784.329,"end":791.573,"text":"那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區所以中科院花錢買了你現在又編了60幾億未來要買這個土地以外還要蓋廠房廠棚還要把它全部設置完成以後給所有的無人機公司然後進駐甚至我們是租給他而已我們為什麼為這些無人機的廠商做這麼多我現在只要知道我們中科院對於我們"},{"start":812.245,"end":813.906,"text":"你原來要做什麼?你原來買臺體大的廢校的園區20幾公頃你本來要做什麼?"},{"start":831.477,"end":845.344,"text":"委員臺體大那個廢校園區不是...那是中科院買的就是現在的你原來現在目前有的那塊土地就是跟臺體大買的也是中科院的就是中科院現在這塊我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源你當初買的時候我剛剛講過功能接下來我說我現在只要你告訴大家我們中科院你的強項是什麼你設置的目的是什麼"},{"start":858.391,"end":860.854,"text":"我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼AI算力中心還有測試規劃"},{"start":879.332,"end":879.512,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":909.372,"end":909.552,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":926.923,"end":946.556,"text":"我們的強項我們過去我們一直希望我們應該讓我們自己發展得更好所以你買那個園區當時對於封凍的設置或什麼其實你就是你現在要把它改成低速的封凍欸你現在以前是因為你沒有場地所以中科院請記住當時國家賦予給你而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費還有讓你要做的事情"},{"start":953.881,"end":973.43,"text":"是為我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力其他的事情該經濟部的該國科會的大家分工負責我相信部長一定也會認同因為過去他的夫人也是我們經濟部的部長當時在提這個的時候那時候的部長就是王部長"},{"start":974.13,"end":1001.788,"text":"所以我們希望大家各司其職讓我們的國家更好你產業發展我們沒有意見你軍民合作我們也沒有意見可是你必須把你的角色扮演好因為不然會讓我們覺得說你用法人化的這樣子的一個框架去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會好不好是謝謝委員知道其他的我們希望透過有一些書面資料再提供給我們謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":446,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，我們今天設定的無人機議題，未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面，或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面，無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色。國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展，有各類的無人機，包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、銳鳶、騰雲、劍翔，還有巡飛彈等等，其實非常地多，粗估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上，而國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機也花費了國防預算至少800億以上，這個經費非常地龐大，如果包括研發跟現在使用生產的部分，已經快要接近千億元了。可是在這個時候，包括113年，突然我們用……也不算突然，112年大概就已經開始在規劃，就是國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機，其實我剛剛提到的這些，中科院過去在科研發展的各類監偵型無人機，以及國軍現在跟無人機國家隊、就是民間購置的無人機，它的監偵功能其實基本上都是重複的。另外，美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機，也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型，還有研發中的二型，其實也很類似，不是嗎？現在目前是這樣，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略。就是說我們當然外購可以取得，但是現在包括美方也是鼓勵我們要建立自主的產能，因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候，我們的自主產能是很重要的，所以要雙軌來進行。"],["馬委員文君：對。部長，所以我剛剛說了，中科院長期以來，不管是在科研或是自製上面，我剛剛提到將近千億元的預算，其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊！這個在需要而我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候，其實它就有自主性。而且我剛剛特別提到，其實它跟我們現在的軍用商規，我們跟國家隊採購的這些重複性很高，甚至我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分。","我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎？我們一直說不管飛機也好，不管船艦也好，甚至像無人機或者其它的部分，我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎？可是我們現在顯然不是。我們無人機國家隊那幾家廠商本身有生產線嗎？它幾乎都是組裝線，它也都是從國外買來的，不管是從以色列或從其它國家買來，然後來組裝，可是它到底有沒有符合我們的需求？","簡單來說，在2022年的時候，我們對國人很大聲地宣示，說我們已經接近測試完成很多很多無人機的機型，包括像銳鳶二型是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的旗手無人機作為參考，它也具備偵打一體的能力，可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈；紅雀三型可以做人臉辨識，它有這樣的能力，而且可以追蹤、可以擊殺，有自主執行任務的能力。這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人。所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術，甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好，我們大筆的預算用在跟它的使用性能不見得那麼明顯的情況之下，很多測試沒有過啊！它是不是符合我們的作戰需求，我們也不知道啊！可是你已經研發這麼久，甚至都已經測試通過的，我們卻不用，這個原因是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我想研發政策上面的一些調整，是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的回答？"],["馬委員文君：簡單說明就好了，就是說你和這些無人機國家隊差在哪裡？為什麼中科院花了那麼多錢，而且現在已經在生產使用的，我們卻摒棄不用，而要臨時再去編大筆的預算？當然美國有它一定的量能，還有它的技術存在，可是像我們無人機國家隊這樣的部分，它到底比我們……花那麼多錢，民間的到底有沒有投入什麼經費，我們不曉得，它花的錢一定不會比中科院還多，那它們對我們的優勢到底在哪裡？"],["李院長世強：委員，第一個，中科院跟民間，軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別。"],["馬委員文君：不要說軍規、商規，如果好用，你現在都已經可以量產。軍規或者軍用當然是越好，然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的，是對我們有幫助的啊，你不是在幫它們設想其他的理由啊！所以我們的差在哪裡？好，讓你說差在哪裡。"],["李院長世強：委員，我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產它的無人機的產線，去鋪陳它的產線，就是希望它們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環，這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立。如果做了產線……"],["馬委員文君：無人機國家隊裡面，有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎？就是你的配合廠商？我剛剛唸了很多型的那些部分，不管是尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、銳鳶、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等，跟你配合的廠商裡面，這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面？有沒有？"],["李院長世強：有，中光電。"],["馬委員文君：中光電，除了中光電，其它都沒有？"],["李院長世強：其它目前……"],["馬委員文君：所以其它的能量是怎麼樣？包括有做銳鳶，還有騰雲，現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席，它的總經理叫做馬萬鈞，馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的，他那時候研發騰雲。當時我們去考察，他告訴我們騰雲非常非常好，而且還可以掛彈，未來還可以做什麼樣的利用。那是從中科院到漢翔，現在占總經理職務的人，未來漢翔也會投入這個部分。你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些，可是顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面，這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方，甚至它所有的規格都比較好。","好，我現在請教一下，我們艦載型無人機和陸用監偵無人機的規格有沒有比銳鳶好？"],["顧部長立雄：我想在請中科院回答之前，我先說明一下。因為我們根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗，我們還是在採取一個高低配的方式，不是就全部都要採重非常昂貴的軍規系統。它顯示很多商規的部分，只要生產大量的情況之下，事實上也足以達到部隊跟戰力建構的問題，我只是先做這樣的說明，其它部分是不是請……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們同意，現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜，那我們在高低配……"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望能夠……"],["馬委員文君：我先把它講完。因為我們有做了，就從過去我們研發的無人機上面來看，它有一些比較貴，可是它的功能是不一樣的。比如說艦載型無人機，我們臺灣的平均風力，尤其在秋冬的時候甚至高達六、七級，平均風力其實都是在六、七級，可是我們的商規無人機全部都只是在六級以下。為什麼銳鳶要達到八級，一定有它的原因。它剛開始在用的時候，一下子就摔掉一半以上，它不斷地研發，就是符合我們自己作戰的需求。可是你現在商規裡面沒有一型是可以抗這樣的風力的。我們臺灣週邊這麼大的風，你卻沒有辦法去執行任務，那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼？這是第一點。","第二點，就是我剛剛說的，你可以高低配，可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分，就是在軍規、軍用的部分。現在因為它的預算被排擠，它根本沒有排進去，你買的全部都是用商規的。所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛，而且全部都是監偵的。你都知道我的敵人在那裡，我現在看過去，我知道我的敵人在前面，然後呢？你們之前做出來、研發出來是可以偵察，也可以打擊的哦！現在都沒有，全部都是監偵型的，我們要那麼多監偵型做什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們會有這種消耗型、攻擊型的無人機出來，給一點時間。另外，提到的銳鳶2的運用，它要抗八級風的理解是因為它是在海上做運用，有一些是屬於陸軍近程戰術的無人機，可能抗風的部分是不一樣的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你現在買的這六型包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的，可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級，它就是六級以下，所以它沒有辦法使用，但我們卻買了。所以我們現在要提出來，就是說你現在買的都是買商規的，然後都是監偵型的，完全沒有辦法攻擊。我知道敵人在那裡，我看到它要攻擊我了，可是我對它一點辦法都沒有。","這是我們要特別提出來探討的，就是我們在預算的分配上面，我們不是那麼多，可是你應該要怎麼樣配置？剛剛部長也提到了，你要高低配嘛！有功能的，應該你也要採購啊！它是我們國家花很多錢去研發出來的，而且都已經測試通過了，結果你不用，你去用這些……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有不用啊！"],["馬委員文君：你目前沒有編錢啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我們明年……"],["馬委員文君：沒有！在112年的時候已經告訴我們，如果通過以後……那時候是沈榮津副院長，他結合所有單位，包括經濟部、國科會、中科院和國防部等單位，大家一起共同去督導這樣一個無人機的團隊。所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡，這個部分我們請部長再去做全般的考量，好不好？","我們希望中科院的院長……之前你來報告劍翔或是其它無人機發展，當時在戰規司，你是怎麼說的？你應該也要好好地讓現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在，無人機的過去、現在跟未來。這個部分我們希望後面還可以有一些討論的空間，因為現在預算也剛在用而已。已經買的，我們希望後面趕快把它補足，不然我們現在看起來很危險啊！","就這個部分，我再請教的就是，第二個，中科院跟軍備局在民雄園區到底是什麼角色？"],["李院長世強：報告，民雄園區整個由中科院來做規劃和設計。"],["馬委員文君：不好意思！為什麼？中科院的強項是什麼？當國家賦予中科院最大的任務，希望中科院做的是什麼？而且我們還特別通過法律，讓中科院法人化。你不用透過政府採購法，就可以運用更多的管道去吸收人才，那是我們法人化的原因。可是中科院現在在無人機的園區扮演什麼樣的角色？你是國科會嗎？你是經濟部嗎？你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區。","中科院買了第一個園區，也就是臺體大嘉義廢校的時候，我們花了二十幾億元去買那個園區，那時候是要做我們航太，飛機還有引擎風洞的測試場，那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區，所以中科院花錢買了。你現在又編了六十幾億元，未來要買這個土地外，還要蓋廠房、廠棚，還要把它全部設置完成以後，給所有的無人機公司進駐，甚至我們是租給它而已。我們為什麼為這些無人機廠商做這麼多？我現在只要知道中科院對於我們國家的任務是什麼？告訴我們。"],["李院長世強：委員，先跟你報告，現在這個無人機產業園區的土地是屬於中科院的；第二個，這個68億多的預算……"],["馬委員文君：你原來要做什麼？你原來買臺體大廢校的園區二十幾公頃，你本來要做什麼？"],["李院長世強：委員，臺體大那個廢校園區不是……"],["馬委員文君：那是中科院買的。你目前有的那塊土地，就是跟臺體大買的，也是中科院的，就是中科院現在這塊，我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源。"],["李院長世強：委員，這個我再跟您……"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛講過你當初買的功能，我現在只要你告訴大家，中科院的強項是什麼？你設置的目的是什麼？"],["李院長世強：委員，那個土地的事情我另外跟您報告，可能有些誤解。"],["馬委員文君：好，沒關係，那個土地我已經知道了。"],["李院長世強：其實我們今天的報告裡面，很核心的任務就是，未來我們無人機要能夠迭代創新，要能夠領先……"],["馬委員文君：不要講迭代創新這種，我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼？"],["李院長世強：AI算力中心，還有測試、規劃。"],["馬委員文君：AI？我們臺灣現在不是所有民間廠商都非常強嗎？中科院在這一部分有特別強嗎？甚至還有很多機密的預算是要花在AI上面，都是跟民間去採購。你說AI的任務是中科院的任務？","我在這裡再提醒一次，中科院當時法人化，因為中科院有很多必須要為國家做的科研項目，希望我們與時俱進。不管在武器的發展，或者對我們的防衛力量，其實可以有更多的著墨，所以花了那麼多錢給中科院，結果你的錢可能把技術轉移給其它廠商。中科院最重要的、我們的強項是飛彈。我們過去一直希望讓自己發展得更好，所以你當時買那個園區是要做風洞的設置等，你現在要把它改成低速的風洞！以前是因為你沒有場地。","所以中科院請記住，當時國家賦予給你，而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費，讓你要做的事情，是為了我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力。其它的事情，該經濟部的、該國科會的，大家分工負責。我相信部長一定也會認同，因為過去您的夫人就是經濟部部長，在提這個的時候，當時的部長就是王部長。","所以我們希望大家各司其職，讓我們的國家更好。你要做產業發展，我們沒有意見；要軍民合作，我們也沒有意見。可是你必須把你的角色扮演好，不然會讓我們覺得你用法人化這樣的框架，去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會，好不好？"],["李院長世強：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["馬委員文君：其它的，我們希望再提供給我們一些書面資料，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，部長請回。","修正宣告，待會賴士葆委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}}