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\"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 998.264, \"end\": 998.444, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 998.444, \"end\": 998.665, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 998.665, \"end\": 998.845, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 998.845, \"end\": 999.145, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 999.145, \"end\": 999.525, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 999.525, \"end\": 999.785, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 999.785, \"end\": 999.805, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1000.265, \"end\": 1000.345, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1000.345, \"end\": 1000.365, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,310 --> 00:00:07,048\n謝謝主席我想請那個我們顧立雄部長還有中科院請顧部長\n\n2\n00:00:13,502 --> 00:00:35,883\n徐委員好部長好剛才呢馬委員有談到說呢中科院的專長應該要是飛檔其實我相當的認同從以前到現在不過呢我在上禮拜跟我們院長的這個質詢喔有點雞同鴨講似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼那你回答的問題也不是我想要問的喔所以呢我詢問的是前端的粗製品但你跟我提的是後續的精煉\n\n3\n00:00:36,664 --> 00:00:54,163\n所以第一個我想要先再請教一下你還是堅持只要過濾酸胺有觸碰到任何零包含是零的化合物都會爆炸嗎不包含化合物不包含化合物嗎所以我當天你要回想喔我當天有講到元素或是黃磷這兩個字嗎上個禮拜\n\n4\n00:00:59,883 --> 00:01:16,479\n沒有沒有嘛所以其實我上個禮拜其實我要談的就是零化合物但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的感受到的就是零的元素我根本我再一次我回去重複查看了我沒有講零元素或者是黃零我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面因為他檢測出來的時候他沒有辦法\n\n5\n00:01:20,282 --> 00:01:45,596\n知道它是哪一種化合物所以它只能分離說裡面的零跟鈣各是多少那這個時候呢您就把我曲解成了我說的是零的元素就不斷的提到會爆炸這件事情但是您講的並不是我問你的問題你回答的也不是我在問你的問題喔那好那既然呢你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說零元素也沒有說黃零所以也沒有爆炸的問題\n\n6\n00:01:46,596 --> 00:02:15,831\n那呢上一次提出的這幾張等一下到時候會提供給你們SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成可以看出其化合物的含量那就沒有所謂爆炸的這個問題所以呢今天我再拿出另外一個更完整的這個證據提供給大家來看2023年的6月我們所向美國所買的這個過濾酸胺也就是AP我想問請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP\n\n7\n00:02:17,140 --> 00:02:44,455\n有有嘛那TCP是什麼?磷酸三鈣磷酸三鈣嘛好所以呢我直接提出這個報告出來給大家看當時我們所購買的這個AP裡面呢就是過濾酸胺它就不只是單純的過濾酸胺這個化學式它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物其中在TCP的這個部分就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣裡面是有的\n\n8\n00:02:44,915 --> 00:03:13,142\n那他說他的這個Maxima是0.01他說因為他送來的是小於0.01所以是合可的這是他送給我們的報告的說法但我們今天要質疑的是其他的問題就是這個美方的資料很完整的提到購買的過濾酸胺裡面有做其他的添加那所以跟一般我們所單純講到的過濾酸胺並不相同他有很多的化合物添加在裡面那我要問院長的是\n\n9\n00:03:14,082 --> 00:03:28,995\n你知道為什麼美商賣來的這一批過濾酸胺裡面要再添加TCP的化合物嗎防凝結防凝結防止成為硬塊然後呢不會無法使用同意嗎\n\n10\n00:03:30,222 --> 00:03:35,008\n是,因為如果你這個過濾酸胺吸收到空氣的水分的話那它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用所以它加了這個TCP\n\n11\n00:03:48,723 --> 00:04:11,814\n但是呢我要問一下在我們中研院做非氮燃料測試的時候是否有內部的人員發現因為他的這個TCP他上來報告雖然他說他小於0.01但是他每一批貨的均勻度濃度純度不一樣所以導致有人發現這個有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況有沒有人跟你反應過\n\n12\n00:04:12,634 --> 00:04:40,261\n委員跟你保證絕對沒有沒有人跟你反應過這件事情絕對沒有那會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應但是有跟其他人反應我們不可能因為我們所有的製程我們那個評管是非常標準嚴格的您放心你覺得非常標準跟嚴格但是我們這裡收到的包含是我們中科院內部人員的吹哨者不少人都告訴我們說他們非常的擔憂所以既然你這麼有信心你回去再檢查一次那也沒問題吧\n\n13\n00:04:41,101 --> 00:04:42,044\n請說上禮拜您提供的那個SGS的報告有沒有\n\n14\n00:04:48,154 --> 00:05:15,853\n您注意到它的單位它用的是PPB注意一下那個B是B聯所以它就是十億分之一的單位所以您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話它是0.0017還小於原本原廠報告的十分之一我知道嘛它是小於沒有錯但我當時不是跟你談論說它的量的大跟小我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量跟大跟小的問題\n\n15\n00:05:16,573 --> 00:05:41,579\n我沒有我沒有問的事情我沒有講的事情你不要每次一直塞到嘴巴裡面就像我沒有說是零元素也沒有說是黃零你一直用這個曲解我我這樣我沒有辦法接受那所以說我上禮拜跟這禮拜我都沒有跟你談說是因為這個所謂的他的單位PPP大於所謂的TCP我到剛剛為止我都沒有這樣講這是你個人的說法我要講的是他從寄來樣品也好\n\n16\n00:05:42,099 --> 00:05:59,709\n然後呢到他第二次抽樣是在道港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣他的TCP他的比例是不一樣是不均勻的也就是說我們在這一批前期的粗製品的管理上面的品管做得不夠好我在談的是這件事情不是你剛剛說的PPB的問題請回應\n\n17\n00:06:02,730 --> 00:06:18,395\n委員他的抽樣三張第一個我上禮拜就已經直接看到這三個我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確我再強調一遍為什麼他的數據不正確為什麼我會直接懷疑他我們很少拿PPB來做\n\n18\n00:06:21,483 --> 00:06:35,867\n我告訴你他為什麼要這樣驗好不好因為他想要驗出說到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛那因為呢我們其實平常是我們如果好院長我問你喔我們自己國內生產的過濾酸胺裡面有沒有含TCP\n\n19\n00:06:36,087 --> 00:06:58,160\n沒有因為他沒有嘛所以他為了要去了解說驗這個的理由是為了要去了解說我們向美方所採購進來的過濾酸胺裡面是完全的過濾酸胺還是有額外添加了化合物所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛所以跟你剛剛說的PPB跟你說的TCP是否小於0.001是沒有關聯的不是在問這個問題我是在問的是說我們來的這個粗製品的管理包含是檢驗我們有沒有做\n\n20\n00:07:06,005 --> 00:07:33,772\n有做了怎麼樣了很徹底而且很徹底那有沒有報告提供給我我們的報告沒有問題你們的禁料的檢驗是什麼時候做的2023年6月的這一批的禁料檢驗是什麼時候做的我們每一批禁料我們自己化學對我就問你20因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批嘛所以我只問你這一批的我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的結果是如何的\n\n21\n00:07:34,386 --> 00:07:53,231\n委員我只知道結果正常但時間我現在真的不知道你只知道結果正常那怎樣算正常你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好委員我跟您報告我們根本不會檢測TCP那個不是要檢測那你剛剛不是跟我說你要檢測我們檢測的是它裡面的其他化合物的含量其他化合物哪些化合物\n\n22\n00:07:55,311 --> 00:08:14,297\n那你剛剛講的好像什麼都懂的樣子我現在問你說那檢測哪些化合物你又不知道所以我要問你說那既然你說他出製的時候出製品進來的時候檢測有檢測哪些內容那這些內容分別他得到的比例是多少那所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的我現在問你的是請你具體針對這些部分回答我\n\n23\n00:08:22,541 --> 00:08:39,041\n我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的這絕對沒有問題第二個我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷這是在我問的是你們沒有檢測TCP那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP這是美國原廠提供的沒有是我們跟他要的\n\n24\n00:08:41,503 --> 00:09:07,955\n對吧我們有沒有跟他要求提供給我們每一批進貨他一定要提供他自己的檢驗證明然後過來之後我還要再檢驗一遍所以嘛那他既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的那你有沒有針對他裡面的TCP出製品裡面每一批是否有均勻有符合我們的要求來提供檢測嘛然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗這個TCP那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多浪費大家這麼多時間是幹什麼呢\n\n25\n00:09:09,096 --> 00:09:25,045\n委員TCP在精煉的過程中間它根本因為它不溶於水就直接在精煉過程就被排除掉了你確定它會排除掉我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告沒有問題啊那請問我再問你一次啊那你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼你又說TCP沒有檢驗你又說你們都有檢驗那請問你們具體在6月的時候你檢測的內容是什麼2023年的6月進貨的這一批你們針對粗製品的檢測進行哪方面的檢測結果為何\n\n26\n00:09:38,852 --> 00:10:00,859\n委員我現在回答不出來現在回答不出來那你剛剛不是都說你都知道委員我知道它是合格的你知道它是合格但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊那不然我什麼我都在這裡跟你說合格就好我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了請問檢測了哪些項目請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告我現在真的說不出來\n\n27\n00:10:02,455 --> 00:10:18,142\n好吧那你現在說不出來我也沒有辦法繼續問只是呢我要再強調一次上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全的了解我在問什麼然後呢你就一直談爆炸爆炸爆炸現在直接已經告訴你了他就是一個\n\n28\n00:10:19,721 --> 00:10:20,001\n徐巧芯\n\n29\n00:10:36,437 --> 00:11:04,775\n所以在上禮拜我問你的時候你應該要很清楚我的意思如果你不是很確定你可以問我但是我沒有講零元素我也沒有講黃磷你就擅自把我的說法解讀為零元素接觸到所以會爆炸這對我們的質詢來說是覺得很荒謬的一件事情所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP就是有放\n\n30\n00:11:05,515 --> 00:11:09,437\n所以上禮拜你沒有回答完的這禮拜在這個地方所以拜託院長6月這個2023年6月這一批進貨之後何時檢測檢測了什麼檢測的結果是什麼請另外再給我一份報告既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚可以嗎\n\n31\n00:11:25,863 --> 00:11:50,478\n那我現在下一個問題了不好意思那那個我要問一下院長部長院長請回那個院長我想要問一下因為最近很多家長來陳情那就是關於學生跟這個權動法之間的關係那我想要問一下這個支援軍事情務在我們的法律規定上面實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目\n\n32\n00:11:53,294 --> 00:12:02,687\n他按照事情細則應該是有八項嘛有八項對明方法這是按照明方法對明方法有哪八項\n\n33\n00:12:06,206 --> 00:12:25,291\n因為我時間也不太夠啦我直接講就是其實包含說搶收軍用機場啊然後你要去監視報告敵軍的空降飛彈襲擊的情形啊你要對空監視報告敵機的動向啊還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品啊比如說可能子彈啊等等的對空監視及報告敵機動態等等的那\n\n34\n00:12:30,473 --> 00:12:32,134\n部長你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎學生不會從事這些勤務也沒有規範因為他這是不會沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務\n\n35\n00:12:43,089 --> 00:13:08,429\n沒有但你在民防法第二條裡面有講到說支援軍事勤務嗎他是規範所有的民防團隊那是以民防總隊為主嗎並不是學生嗎那學生有沒有被包含在裡面沒有為什麼沒有被包含在裡面學生是在學生在底下的這個邊組那他們要做什麼呢他們就是在守護校園的安全守護校園的安全裡面民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條啊\n\n36\n00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:23,327\n他根據民放法規範在教育訓練當中他要如何自救互救這樣的一個訓練裡面沒有寫啊民防法裡面寫到的只有學生邊組而已他並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援\n\n37\n00:13:25,104 --> 00:13:40,964\n這個如果你要論的話是因為他有一個相關跟委員報告如同委員所說的明確明確實行細則他第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形\n\n38\n00:13:41,505 --> 00:13:49,691\n但是他除了民防法是延續的他有另外一個執法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作他這個民防團隊的編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法你也都很了解第43條裡面有說到就是說我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指的是民防總隊那民防總隊他其實就是縣府\n\n39\n00:14:04,021 --> 00:14:10,663\n縣府的一些工作人員那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡他有另外一個辦法在哪裡他在民防法第5條有說要訂一個學校防護團的辦法對這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡對他學校防護的辦法他第8條有講到說學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍有5點那他大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任比如說空襲來了又有空襲對就是幫忙報告一下\n\n40\n00:14:31,428 --> 00:14:33,489\n協助民防團隊擔任空襲防護救護消防等工作那第二點是協助政府機關擔任宣導的工作第三點協助醫院\n\n41\n00:14:55,904 --> 00:14:57,826\n軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪些項目\n\n42\n00:15:10,042 --> 00:15:25,230\n這一個軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法,裡面寫的有10類,大概就是一些比較一般性的物資\n\n43\n00:15:27,131 --> 00:15:41,961\n我目前了解的比如說這個紡織品那個也算紡織品喔對對對他有10類你繼續把那5項念完你把那5項念完第5個是協助軍事警察單位擔任交通管制疏導等工作他是比較勤務性的\n\n44\n00:15:42,261 --> 00:15:42,741\n這五個看起來都是情誤性\n\n45\n00:16:02,921 --> 00:16:17,177\n所以我還是覺得學生不太適合在參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中不曉得最後再問一下不曉得部長認為學生在這個民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼\n\n46\n00:16:17,858 --> 00:16:39,805\n我們來跟內政部協調有關民防法的這個部分學生這個他的主要的任務那我想還是以防作為自救護救作為一個重要的點另外我最後一個建議你們那個如果真的要寫學生的話也不要只定在什麼其他施行辦法就要在民防法裡面寫清楚\n\n47\n00:16:40,265 --> 00:16:40,365\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n310\t7048\t謝謝主席我想請那個我們顧立雄部長還有中科院請顧部長\n13502\t35883\t徐委員好部長好剛才呢馬委員有談到說呢中科院的專長應該要是飛檔其實我相當的認同從以前到現在不過呢我在上禮拜跟我們院長的這個質詢喔有點雞同鴨講似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼那你回答的問題也不是我想要問的喔所以呢我詢問的是前端的粗製品但你跟我提的是後續的精煉\n36664\t54163\t所以第一個我想要先再請教一下你還是堅持只要過濾酸胺有觸碰到任何零包含是零的化合物都會爆炸嗎不包含化合物不包含化合物嗎所以我當天你要回想喔我當天有講到元素或是黃磷這兩個字嗎上個禮拜\n59883\t76479\t沒有沒有嘛所以其實我上個禮拜其實我要談的就是零化合物但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的感受到的就是零的元素我根本我再一次我回去重複查看了我沒有講零元素或者是黃零我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面因為他檢測出來的時候他沒有辦法\n80282\t105596\t知道它是哪一種化合物所以它只能分離說裡面的零跟鈣各是多少那這個時候呢您就把我曲解成了我說的是零的元素就不斷的提到會爆炸這件事情但是您講的並不是我問你的問題你回答的也不是我在問你的問題喔那好那既然呢你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說零元素也沒有說黃零所以也沒有爆炸的問題\n106596\t135831\t那呢上一次提出的這幾張等一下到時候會提供給你們SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成可以看出其化合物的含量那就沒有所謂爆炸的這個問題所以呢今天我再拿出另外一個更完整的這個證據提供給大家來看2023年的6月我們所向美國所買的這個過濾酸胺也就是AP我想問請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP\n137140\t164455\t有有嘛那TCP是什麼?磷酸三鈣磷酸三鈣嘛好所以呢我直接提出這個報告出來給大家看當時我們所購買的這個AP裡面呢就是過濾酸胺它就不只是單純的過濾酸胺這個化學式它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物其中在TCP的這個部分就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣裡面是有的\n164915\t193142\t那他說他的這個Maxima是0.01他說因為他送來的是小於0.01所以是合可的這是他送給我們的報告的說法但我們今天要質疑的是其他的問題就是這個美方的資料很完整的提到購買的過濾酸胺裡面有做其他的添加那所以跟一般我們所單純講到的過濾酸胺並不相同他有很多的化合物添加在裡面那我要問院長的是\n194082\t208995\t你知道為什麼美商賣來的這一批過濾酸胺裡面要再添加TCP的化合物嗎防凝結防凝結防止成為硬塊然後呢不會無法使用同意嗎\n210222\t215008\t是,因為如果你這個過濾酸胺吸收到空氣的水分的話那它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用所以它加了這個TCP\n228723\t251814\t但是呢我要問一下在我們中研院做非氮燃料測試的時候是否有內部的人員發現因為他的這個TCP他上來報告雖然他說他小於0.01但是他每一批貨的均勻度濃度純度不一樣所以導致有人發現這個有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況有沒有人跟你反應過\n252634\t280261\t委員跟你保證絕對沒有沒有人跟你反應過這件事情絕對沒有那會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應但是有跟其他人反應我們不可能因為我們所有的製程我們那個評管是非常標準嚴格的您放心你覺得非常標準跟嚴格但是我們這裡收到的包含是我們中科院內部人員的吹哨者不少人都告訴我們說他們非常的擔憂所以既然你這麼有信心你回去再檢查一次那也沒問題吧\n281101\t282044\t請說上禮拜您提供的那個SGS的報告有沒有\n288154\t315853\t您注意到它的單位它用的是PPB注意一下那個B是B聯所以它就是十億分之一的單位所以您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話它是0.0017還小於原本原廠報告的十分之一我知道嘛它是小於沒有錯但我當時不是跟你談論說它的量的大跟小我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量跟大跟小的問題\n316573\t341579\t我沒有我沒有問的事情我沒有講的事情你不要每次一直塞到嘴巴裡面就像我沒有說是零元素也沒有說是黃零你一直用這個曲解我我這樣我沒有辦法接受那所以說我上禮拜跟這禮拜我都沒有跟你談說是因為這個所謂的他的單位PPP大於所謂的TCP我到剛剛為止我都沒有這樣講這是你個人的說法我要講的是他從寄來樣品也好\n342099\t359709\t然後呢到他第二次抽樣是在道港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣他的TCP他的比例是不一樣是不均勻的也就是說我們在這一批前期的粗製品的管理上面的品管做得不夠好我在談的是這件事情不是你剛剛說的PPB的問題請回應\n362730\t378395\t委員他的抽樣三張第一個我上禮拜就已經直接看到這三個我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確我再強調一遍為什麼他的數據不正確為什麼我會直接懷疑他我們很少拿PPB來做\n381483\t395867\t我告訴你他為什麼要這樣驗好不好因為他想要驗出說到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛那因為呢我們其實平常是我們如果好院長我問你喔我們自己國內生產的過濾酸胺裡面有沒有含TCP\n396087\t418160\t沒有 因為他沒有嘛所以他為了要去了解說驗這個的理由是為了要去了解說我們向美方所採購進來的過濾酸胺裡面是完全的過濾酸胺還是有額外添加了化合物所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛所以跟你剛剛說的PPB跟你說的TCP是否小於0.001是沒有關聯的不是在問這個問題我是在問的是說我們來的這個粗製品的管理包含是檢驗我們有沒有做\n426005\t453772\t有做了怎麼樣了很徹底而且很徹底那有沒有報告提供給我我們的報告沒有問題你們的禁料的檢驗是什麼時候做的2023年6月的這一批的禁料檢驗是什麼時候做的我們每一批禁料我們自己化學對我就問你20因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批嘛所以我只問你這一批的我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的結果是如何的\n454386\t473231\t委員我只知道結果正常但時間我現在真的不知道你只知道結果正常那怎樣算正常你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好委員我跟您報告我們根本不會檢測TCP那個不是要檢測那你剛剛不是跟我說你要檢測我們檢測的是它裡面的其他化合物的含量其他化合物哪些化合物\n475311\t494297\t那你剛剛講的好像什麼都懂的樣子我現在問你說那檢測哪些化合物你又不知道所以我要問你說那既然你說他出製的時候出製品進來的時候檢測有檢測哪些內容那這些內容分別他得到的比例是多少那所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的我現在問你的是請你具體針對這些部分回答我\n502541\t519041\t我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的這絕對沒有問題第二個我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷這是在我問的是你們沒有檢測TCP那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP這是美國原廠提供的沒有 是我們跟他要的\n521503\t547955\t對吧我們有沒有跟他要求提供給我們每一批進貨他一定要提供他自己的檢驗證明然後過來之後我還要再檢驗一遍所以嘛那他既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的那你有沒有針對他裡面的TCP出製品裡面每一批是否有均勻有符合我們的要求來提供檢測嘛然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗這個TCP那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多浪費大家這麼多時間是幹什麼呢\n549096\t565045\t委員TCP在精煉的過程中間它根本因為它不溶於水就直接在精煉過程就被排除掉了你確定它會排除掉我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告沒有問題啊那請問我再問你一次啊那你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼你又說TCP沒有檢驗你又說你們都有檢驗那請問你們具體在6月的時候你檢測的內容是什麼2023年的6月進貨的這一批你們針對粗製品的檢測進行哪方面的檢測結果為何\n578852\t600859\t委員我現在回答不出來現在回答不出來那你剛剛不是都說你都知道委員我知道它是合格的你知道它是合格但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊那不然我什麼我都在這裡跟你說合格就好我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了請問檢測了哪些項目請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告我現在真的說不出來\n602455\t618142\t好吧那你現在說不出來我也沒有辦法繼續問只是呢我要再強調一次上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全的了解我在問什麼然後呢你就一直談爆炸爆炸爆炸現在直接已經告訴你了他就是一個\n619721\t620001\t徐巧芯\n636437\t664775\t所以在上禮拜我問你的時候你應該要很清楚我的意思如果你不是很確定你可以問我但是我沒有講零元素我也沒有講黃磷你就擅自把我的說法解讀為零元素接觸到所以會爆炸這對我們的質詢來說是覺得很荒謬的一件事情所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP就是有放\n665515\t669437\t所以上禮拜你沒有回答完的這禮拜在這個地方所以拜託院長6月這個2023年6月這一批進貨之後何時檢測檢測了什麼檢測的結果是什麼請另外再給我一份報告既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚可以嗎\n685863\t710478\t那我現在下一個問題了不好意思那那個我要問一下院長部長 院長請回那個院長我想要問一下因為最近很多家長來陳情那就是關於學生跟這個權動法之間的關係那我想要問一下這個支援軍事情務在我們的法律規定上面實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目\n713294\t722687\t他按照事情細則應該是有八項嘛有八項對明方法這是按照明方法對明方法有哪八項\n726206\t745291\t因為我時間也不太夠啦我直接講就是其實包含說搶收軍用機場啊然後你要去監視報告敵軍的空降飛彈襲擊的情形啊你要對空監視報告敵機的動向啊還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品啊比如說可能子彈啊等等的對空監視及報告敵機動態等等的那\n750473\t752134\t部長你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎學生不會從事這些勤務也沒有規範因為他這是不會沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務\n763089\t788429\t沒有但你在民防法第二條裡面有講到說支援軍事勤務嗎他是規範所有的民防團隊那是以民防總隊為主嗎並不是學生嗎那學生有沒有被包含在裡面沒有為什麼沒有被包含在裡面學生是在學生在底下的這個邊組那他們要做什麼呢他們就是在守護校園的安全守護校園的安全裡面民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條啊\n789110\t803327\t他根據民放法規範在教育訓練當中他要如何自救互救這樣的一個訓練裡面沒有寫啊民防法裡面寫到的只有學生邊組而已他並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援\n805104\t820964\t這個如果你要論的話是因為他有一個相關跟委員報告 如同委員所說的明確明確 實行細則他第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形\n821505\t829691\t但是他除了民防法是延續的他有另外一個執法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作他這個民防團隊的編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法你也都很了解第43條裡面有說到就是說我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指的是民防總隊那民防總隊他其實就是縣府\n844021\t850663\t縣府的一些工作人員那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡他有另外一個辦法在哪裡他在民防法第5條有說要訂一個學校防護團的辦法對 這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡對 他學校防護的辦法他第8條有講到說學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍有5點那他大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任比如說空襲來了又有空襲對 就是幫忙報告一下\n871428\t873489\t協助民防團隊擔任空襲防護救護消防等工作那第二點是協助政府機關擔任宣導的工作第三點協助醫院\n895904\t897826\t軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪些項目\n910042\t925230\t這一個軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法,裡面寫的有10類,大概就是一些比較一般性的物資\n927131\t941961\t我目前了解的比如說這個紡織品那個也算紡織品喔對對對他有10類你繼續把那5項念完你把那5項念完第5個是協助軍事警察單位擔任交通管制疏導等工作他是比較勤務性的\n942261\t942741\t這五個看起來都是情誤性\n962921\t977177\t所以我還是覺得學生不太適合在參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中不曉得最後再問一下不曉得部長認為學生在這個民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼\n977858\t999805\t我們來跟內政部協調有關民防法的這個部分學生這個他的主要的任務那我想還是以防作為自救護救作為一個重要的點另外我最後一個建議你們那個如果真的要寫學生的話也不要只定在什麼其他施行辦法就要在民防法裡面寫清楚\n1000265\t1000365\t主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席我想請那個我們顧立雄部長還有中科院請顧部長\n徐委員好部長好剛才呢馬委員有談到說呢中科院的專長應該要是飛檔其實我相當的認同從以前到現在不過呢我在上禮拜跟我們院長的這個質詢喔有點雞同鴨講似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼那你回答的問題也不是我想要問的喔所以呢我詢問的是前端的粗製品但你跟我提的是後續的精煉\n所以第一個我想要先再請教一下你還是堅持只要過濾酸胺有觸碰到任何零包含是零的化合物都會爆炸嗎不包含化合物不包含化合物嗎所以我當天你要回想喔我當天有講到元素或是黃磷這兩個字嗎上個禮拜\n沒有沒有嘛所以其實我上個禮拜其實我要談的就是零化合物但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的感受到的就是零的元素我根本我再一次我回去重複查看了我沒有講零元素或者是黃零我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面因為他檢測出來的時候他沒有辦法\n知道它是哪一種化合物所以它只能分離說裡面的零跟鈣各是多少那這個時候呢您就把我曲解成了我說的是零的元素就不斷的提到會爆炸這件事情但是您講的並不是我問你的問題你回答的也不是我在問你的問題喔那好那既然呢你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說零元素也沒有說黃零所以也沒有爆炸的問題\n那呢上一次提出的這幾張等一下到時候會提供給你們SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成可以看出其化合物的含量那就沒有所謂爆炸的這個問題所以呢今天我再拿出另外一個更完整的這個證據提供給大家來看2023年的6月我們所向美國所買的這個過濾酸胺也就是AP我想問請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP\n有有嘛那TCP是什麼?磷酸三鈣磷酸三鈣嘛好所以呢我直接提出這個報告出來給大家看當時我們所購買的這個AP裡面呢就是過濾酸胺它就不只是單純的過濾酸胺這個化學式它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物其中在TCP的這個部分就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣裡面是有的\n那他說他的這個Maxima是0.01他說因為他送來的是小於0.01所以是合可的這是他送給我們的報告的說法但我們今天要質疑的是其他的問題就是這個美方的資料很完整的提到購買的過濾酸胺裡面有做其他的添加那所以跟一般我們所單純講到的過濾酸胺並不相同他有很多的化合物添加在裡面那我要問院長的是\n你知道為什麼美商賣來的這一批過濾酸胺裡面要再添加TCP的化合物嗎防凝結防凝結防止成為硬塊然後呢不會無法使用同意嗎\n是,因為如果你這個過濾酸胺吸收到空氣的水分的話那它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用所以它加了這個TCP\n但是呢我要問一下在我們中研院做非氮燃料測試的時候是否有內部的人員發現因為他的這個TCP他上來報告雖然他說他小於0.01但是他每一批貨的均勻度濃度純度不一樣所以導致有人發現這個有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況有沒有人跟你反應過\n委員跟你保證絕對沒有沒有人跟你反應過這件事情絕對沒有那會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應但是有跟其他人反應我們不可能因為我們所有的製程我們那個評管是非常標準嚴格的您放心你覺得非常標準跟嚴格但是我們這裡收到的包含是我們中科院內部人員的吹哨者不少人都告訴我們說他們非常的擔憂所以既然你這麼有信心你回去再檢查一次那也沒問題吧\n請說上禮拜您提供的那個SGS的報告有沒有\n您注意到它的單位它用的是PPB注意一下那個B是B聯所以它就是十億分之一的單位所以您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話它是0.0017還小於原本原廠報告的十分之一我知道嘛它是小於沒有錯但我當時不是跟你談論說它的量的大跟小我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量跟大跟小的問題\n我沒有我沒有問的事情我沒有講的事情你不要每次一直塞到嘴巴裡面就像我沒有說是零元素也沒有說是黃零你一直用這個曲解我我這樣我沒有辦法接受那所以說我上禮拜跟這禮拜我都沒有跟你談說是因為這個所謂的他的單位PPP大於所謂的TCP我到剛剛為止我都沒有這樣講這是你個人的說法我要講的是他從寄來樣品也好\n然後呢到他第二次抽樣是在道港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣他的TCP他的比例是不一樣是不均勻的也就是說我們在這一批前期的粗製品的管理上面的品管做得不夠好我在談的是這件事情不是你剛剛說的PPB的問題請回應\n委員他的抽樣三張第一個我上禮拜就已經直接看到這三個我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確我再強調一遍為什麼他的數據不正確為什麼我會直接懷疑他我們很少拿PPB來做\n我告訴你他為什麼要這樣驗好不好因為他想要驗出說到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛那因為呢我們其實平常是我們如果好院長我問你喔我們自己國內生產的過濾酸胺裡面有沒有含TCP\n沒有 因為他沒有嘛所以他為了要去了解說驗這個的理由是為了要去了解說我們向美方所採購進來的過濾酸胺裡面是完全的過濾酸胺還是有額外添加了化合物所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛所以跟你剛剛說的PPB跟你說的TCP是否小於0.001是沒有關聯的不是在問這個問題我是在問的是說我們來的這個粗製品的管理包含是檢驗我們有沒有做\n有做了怎麼樣了很徹底而且很徹底那有沒有報告提供給我我們的報告沒有問題你們的禁料的檢驗是什麼時候做的2023年6月的這一批的禁料檢驗是什麼時候做的我們每一批禁料我們自己化學對我就問你20因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批嘛所以我只問你這一批的我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的結果是如何的\n委員我只知道結果正常但時間我現在真的不知道你只知道結果正常那怎樣算正常你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好委員我跟您報告我們根本不會檢測TCP那個不是要檢測那你剛剛不是跟我說你要檢測我們檢測的是它裡面的其他化合物的含量其他化合物哪些化合物\n那你剛剛講的好像什麼都懂的樣子我現在問你說那檢測哪些化合物你又不知道所以我要問你說那既然你說他出製的時候出製品進來的時候檢測有檢測哪些內容那這些內容分別他得到的比例是多少那所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的我現在問你的是請你具體針對這些部分回答我\n我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的這絕對沒有問題第二個我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷這是在我問的是你們沒有檢測TCP那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP這是美國原廠提供的沒有 是我們跟他要的\n對吧我們有沒有跟他要求提供給我們每一批進貨他一定要提供他自己的檢驗證明然後過來之後我還要再檢驗一遍所以嘛那他既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的那你有沒有針對他裡面的TCP出製品裡面每一批是否有均勻有符合我們的要求來提供檢測嘛然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗這個TCP那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多浪費大家這麼多時間是幹什麼呢\n委員TCP在精煉的過程中間它根本因為它不溶於水就直接在精煉過程就被排除掉了你確定它會排除掉我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告沒有問題啊那請問我再問你一次啊那你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼你又說TCP沒有檢驗你又說你們都有檢驗那請問你們具體在6月的時候你檢測的內容是什麼2023年的6月進貨的這一批你們針對粗製品的檢測進行哪方面的檢測結果為何\n委員我現在回答不出來現在回答不出來那你剛剛不是都說你都知道委員我知道它是合格的你知道它是合格但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊那不然我什麼我都在這裡跟你說合格就好我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了請問檢測了哪些項目請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告我現在真的說不出來\n好吧那你現在說不出來我也沒有辦法繼續問只是呢我要再強調一次上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全的了解我在問什麼然後呢你就一直談爆炸爆炸爆炸現在直接已經告訴你了他就是一個\n徐巧芯\n所以在上禮拜我問你的時候你應該要很清楚我的意思如果你不是很確定你可以問我但是我沒有講零元素我也沒有講黃磷你就擅自把我的說法解讀為零元素接觸到所以會爆炸這對我們的質詢來說是覺得很荒謬的一件事情所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP就是有放\n所以上禮拜你沒有回答完的這禮拜在這個地方所以拜託院長6月這個2023年6月這一批進貨之後何時檢測檢測了什麼檢測的結果是什麼請另外再給我一份報告既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚可以嗎\n那我現在下一個問題了不好意思那那個我要問一下院長部長 院長請回那個院長我想要問一下因為最近很多家長來陳情那就是關於學生跟這個權動法之間的關係那我想要問一下這個支援軍事情務在我們的法律規定上面實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目\n他按照事情細則應該是有八項嘛有八項對明方法這是按照明方法對明方法有哪八項\n因為我時間也不太夠啦我直接講就是其實包含說搶收軍用機場啊然後你要去監視報告敵軍的空降飛彈襲擊的情形啊你要對空監視報告敵機的動向啊還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品啊比如說可能子彈啊等等的對空監視及報告敵機動態等等的那\n部長你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎學生不會從事這些勤務也沒有規範因為他這是不會沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務\n沒有但你在民防法第二條裡面有講到說支援軍事勤務嗎他是規範所有的民防團隊那是以民防總隊為主嗎並不是學生嗎那學生有沒有被包含在裡面沒有為什麼沒有被包含在裡面學生是在學生在底下的這個邊組那他們要做什麼呢他們就是在守護校園的安全守護校園的安全裡面民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條啊\n他根據民放法規範在教育訓練當中他要如何自救互救這樣的一個訓練裡面沒有寫啊民防法裡面寫到的只有學生邊組而已他並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援\n這個如果你要論的話是因為他有一個相關跟委員報告 如同委員所說的明確明確 實行細則他第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形\n但是他除了民防法是延續的他有另外一個執法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作他這個民防團隊的編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法你也都很了解第43條裡面有說到就是說我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指的是民防總隊那民防總隊他其實就是縣府\n縣府的一些工作人員那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡他有另外一個辦法在哪裡他在民防法第5條有說要訂一個學校防護團的辦法對 這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡對 他學校防護的辦法他第8條有講到說學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍有5點那他大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任比如說空襲來了又有空襲對 就是幫忙報告一下\n協助民防團隊擔任空襲防護救護消防等工作那第二點是協助政府機關擔任宣導的工作第三點協助醫院\n軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪些項目\n這一個軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法,裡面寫的有10類,大概就是一些比較一般性的物資\n我目前了解的比如說這個紡織品那個也算紡織品喔對對對他有10類你繼續把那5項念完你把那5項念完第5個是協助軍事警察單位擔任交通管制疏導等工作他是比較勤務性的\n這五個看起來都是情誤性\n所以我還是覺得學生不太適合在參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中不曉得最後再問一下不曉得部長認為學生在這個民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼\n我們來跟內政部協調有關民防法的這個部分學生這個他的主要的任務那我想還是以防作為自救護救作為一個重要的點另外我最後一個建議你們那個如果真的要寫學生的話也不要只定在什麼其他施行辦法就要在民防法裡面寫清楚\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.310 --> 00:07.048\n謝謝主席我想請那個我們顧立雄部長還有中科院請顧部長\n\n00:13.502 --> 00:35.883\n徐委員好部長好剛才呢馬委員有談到說呢中科院的專長應該要是飛檔其實我相當的認同從以前到現在不過呢我在上禮拜跟我們院長的這個質詢喔有點雞同鴨講似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼那你回答的問題也不是我想要問的喔所以呢我詢問的是前端的粗製品但你跟我提的是後續的精煉\n\n00:36.664 --> 00:54.163\n所以第一個我想要先再請教一下你還是堅持只要過濾酸胺有觸碰到任何零包含是零的化合物都會爆炸嗎不包含化合物不包含化合物嗎所以我當天你要回想喔我當天有講到元素或是黃磷這兩個字嗎上個禮拜\n\n00:59.883 --> 01:16.479\n沒有沒有嘛所以其實我上個禮拜其實我要談的就是零化合物但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的感受到的就是零的元素我根本我再一次我回去重複查看了我沒有講零元素或者是黃零我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面因為他檢測出來的時候他沒有辦法\n\n01:20.282 --> 01:45.596\n知道它是哪一種化合物所以它只能分離說裡面的零跟鈣各是多少那這個時候呢您就把我曲解成了我說的是零的元素就不斷的提到會爆炸這件事情但是您講的並不是我問你的問題你回答的也不是我在問你的問題喔那好那既然呢你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說零元素也沒有說黃零所以也沒有爆炸的問題\n\n01:46.596 --> 02:15.831\n那呢上一次提出的這幾張等一下到時候會提供給你們SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成可以看出其化合物的含量那就沒有所謂爆炸的這個問題所以呢今天我再拿出另外一個更完整的這個證據提供給大家來看2023年的6月我們所向美國所買的這個過濾酸胺也就是AP我想問請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP\n\n02:17.140 --> 02:44.455\n有有嘛那TCP是什麼?磷酸三鈣磷酸三鈣嘛好所以呢我直接提出這個報告出來給大家看當時我們所購買的這個AP裡面呢就是過濾酸胺它就不只是單純的過濾酸胺這個化學式它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物其中在TCP的這個部分就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣裡面是有的\n\n02:44.915 --> 03:13.142\n那他說他的這個Maxima是0.01他說因為他送來的是小於0.01所以是合可的這是他送給我們的報告的說法但我們今天要質疑的是其他的問題就是這個美方的資料很完整的提到購買的過濾酸胺裡面有做其他的添加那所以跟一般我們所單純講到的過濾酸胺並不相同他有很多的化合物添加在裡面那我要問院長的是\n\n03:14.082 --> 03:28.995\n你知道為什麼美商賣來的這一批過濾酸胺裡面要再添加TCP的化合物嗎防凝結防凝結防止成為硬塊然後呢不會無法使用同意嗎\n\n03:30.222 --> 03:35.008\n是,因為如果你這個過濾酸胺吸收到空氣的水分的話那它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用所以它加了這個TCP\n\n03:48.723 --> 04:11.814\n但是呢我要問一下在我們中研院做非氮燃料測試的時候是否有內部的人員發現因為他的這個TCP他上來報告雖然他說他小於0.01但是他每一批貨的均勻度濃度純度不一樣所以導致有人發現這個有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況有沒有人跟你反應過\n\n04:12.634 --> 04:40.261\n委員跟你保證絕對沒有沒有人跟你反應過這件事情絕對沒有那會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應但是有跟其他人反應我們不可能因為我們所有的製程我們那個評管是非常標準嚴格的您放心你覺得非常標準跟嚴格但是我們這裡收到的包含是我們中科院內部人員的吹哨者不少人都告訴我們說他們非常的擔憂所以既然你這麼有信心你回去再檢查一次那也沒問題吧\n\n04:41.101 --> 04:42.044\n請說上禮拜您提供的那個SGS的報告有沒有\n\n04:48.154 --> 05:15.853\n您注意到它的單位它用的是PPB注意一下那個B是B聯所以它就是十億分之一的單位所以您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話它是0.0017還小於原本原廠報告的十分之一我知道嘛它是小於沒有錯但我當時不是跟你談論說它的量的大跟小我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量跟大跟小的問題\n\n05:16.573 --> 05:41.579\n我沒有我沒有問的事情我沒有講的事情你不要每次一直塞到嘴巴裡面就像我沒有說是零元素也沒有說是黃零你一直用這個曲解我我這樣我沒有辦法接受那所以說我上禮拜跟這禮拜我都沒有跟你談說是因為這個所謂的他的單位PPP大於所謂的TCP我到剛剛為止我都沒有這樣講這是你個人的說法我要講的是他從寄來樣品也好\n\n05:42.099 --> 05:59.709\n然後呢到他第二次抽樣是在道港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣他的TCP他的比例是不一樣是不均勻的也就是說我們在這一批前期的粗製品的管理上面的品管做得不夠好我在談的是這件事情不是你剛剛說的PPB的問題請回應\n\n06:02.730 --> 06:18.395\n委員他的抽樣三張第一個我上禮拜就已經直接看到這三個我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確我再強調一遍為什麼他的數據不正確為什麼我會直接懷疑他我們很少拿PPB來做\n\n06:21.483 --> 06:35.867\n我告訴你他為什麼要這樣驗好不好因為他想要驗出說到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛那因為呢我們其實平常是我們如果好院長我問你喔我們自己國內生產的過濾酸胺裡面有沒有含TCP\n\n06:36.087 --> 06:58.160\n沒有因為他沒有嘛所以他為了要去了解說驗這個的理由是為了要去了解說我們向美方所採購進來的過濾酸胺裡面是完全的過濾酸胺還是有額外添加了化合物所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛所以跟你剛剛說的PPB跟你說的TCP是否小於0.001是沒有關聯的不是在問這個問題我是在問的是說我們來的這個粗製品的管理包含是檢驗我們有沒有做\n\n07:06.005 --> 07:33.772\n有做了怎麼樣了很徹底而且很徹底那有沒有報告提供給我我們的報告沒有問題你們的禁料的檢驗是什麼時候做的2023年6月的這一批的禁料檢驗是什麼時候做的我們每一批禁料我們自己化學對我就問你20因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批嘛所以我只問你這一批的我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的結果是如何的\n\n07:34.386 --> 07:53.231\n委員我只知道結果正常但時間我現在真的不知道你只知道結果正常那怎樣算正常你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好委員我跟您報告我們根本不會檢測TCP那個不是要檢測那你剛剛不是跟我說你要檢測我們檢測的是它裡面的其他化合物的含量其他化合物哪些化合物\n\n07:55.311 --> 08:14.297\n那你剛剛講的好像什麼都懂的樣子我現在問你說那檢測哪些化合物你又不知道所以我要問你說那既然你說他出製的時候出製品進來的時候檢測有檢測哪些內容那這些內容分別他得到的比例是多少那所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的我現在問你的是請你具體針對這些部分回答我\n\n08:22.541 --> 08:39.041\n我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的這絕對沒有問題第二個我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷這是在我問的是你們沒有檢測TCP那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP這是美國原廠提供的沒有是我們跟他要的\n\n08:41.503 --> 09:07.955\n對吧我們有沒有跟他要求提供給我們每一批進貨他一定要提供他自己的檢驗證明然後過來之後我還要再檢驗一遍所以嘛那他既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的那你有沒有針對他裡面的TCP出製品裡面每一批是否有均勻有符合我們的要求來提供檢測嘛然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗這個TCP那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多浪費大家這麼多時間是幹什麼呢\n\n09:09.096 --> 09:25.045\n委員TCP在精煉的過程中間它根本因為它不溶於水就直接在精煉過程就被排除掉了你確定它會排除掉我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告沒有問題啊那請問我再問你一次啊那你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼你又說TCP沒有檢驗你又說你們都有檢驗那請問你們具體在6月的時候你檢測的內容是什麼2023年的6月進貨的這一批你們針對粗製品的檢測進行哪方面的檢測結果為何\n\n09:38.852 --> 10:00.859\n委員我現在回答不出來現在回答不出來那你剛剛不是都說你都知道委員我知道它是合格的你知道它是合格但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊那不然我什麼我都在這裡跟你說合格就好我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了請問檢測了哪些項目請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告我現在真的說不出來\n\n10:02.455 --> 10:18.142\n好吧那你現在說不出來我也沒有辦法繼續問只是呢我要再強調一次上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全的了解我在問什麼然後呢你就一直談爆炸爆炸爆炸現在直接已經告訴你了他就是一個\n\n10:19.721 --> 10:20.001\n徐巧芯\n\n10:36.437 --> 11:04.775\n所以在上禮拜我問你的時候你應該要很清楚我的意思如果你不是很確定你可以問我但是我沒有講零元素我也沒有講黃磷你就擅自把我的說法解讀為零元素接觸到所以會爆炸這對我們的質詢來說是覺得很荒謬的一件事情所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP就是有放\n\n11:05.515 --> 11:09.437\n所以上禮拜你沒有回答完的這禮拜在這個地方所以拜託院長6月這個2023年6月這一批進貨之後何時檢測檢測了什麼檢測的結果是什麼請另外再給我一份報告既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚可以嗎\n\n11:25.863 --> 11:50.478\n那我現在下一個問題了不好意思那那個我要問一下院長部長院長請回那個院長我想要問一下因為最近很多家長來陳情那就是關於學生跟這個權動法之間的關係那我想要問一下這個支援軍事情務在我們的法律規定上面實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目\n\n11:53.294 --> 12:02.687\n他按照事情細則應該是有八項嘛有八項對明方法這是按照明方法對明方法有哪八項\n\n12:06.206 --> 12:25.291\n因為我時間也不太夠啦我直接講就是其實包含說搶收軍用機場啊然後你要去監視報告敵軍的空降飛彈襲擊的情形啊你要對空監視報告敵機的動向啊還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品啊比如說可能子彈啊等等的對空監視及報告敵機動態等等的那\n\n12:30.473 --> 12:32.134\n部長你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎學生不會從事這些勤務也沒有規範因為他這是不會沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務\n\n12:43.089 --> 13:08.429\n沒有但你在民防法第二條裡面有講到說支援軍事勤務嗎他是規範所有的民防團隊那是以民防總隊為主嗎並不是學生嗎那學生有沒有被包含在裡面沒有為什麼沒有被包含在裡面學生是在學生在底下的這個邊組那他們要做什麼呢他們就是在守護校園的安全守護校園的安全裡面民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條啊\n\n13:09.110 --> 13:23.327\n他根據民放法規範在教育訓練當中他要如何自救互救這樣的一個訓練裡面沒有寫啊民防法裡面寫到的只有學生邊組而已他並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援\n\n13:25.104 --> 13:40.964\n這個如果你要論的話是因為他有一個相關跟委員報告如同委員所說的明確明確實行細則他第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形\n\n13:41.505 --> 13:49.691\n但是他除了民防法是延續的他有另外一個執法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作他這個民防團隊的編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法你也都很了解第43條裡面有說到就是說我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指的是民防總隊那民防總隊他其實就是縣府\n\n14:04.021 --> 14:10.663\n縣府的一些工作人員那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡他有另外一個辦法在哪裡他在民防法第5條有說要訂一個學校防護團的辦法對這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡對他學校防護的辦法他第8條有講到說學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍有5點那他大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任比如說空襲來了又有空襲對就是幫忙報告一下\n\n14:31.428 --> 14:33.489\n協助民防團隊擔任空襲防護救護消防等工作那第二點是協助政府機關擔任宣導的工作第三點協助醫院\n\n14:55.904 --> 14:57.826\n軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪些項目\n\n15:10.042 --> 15:25.230\n這一個軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法,裡面寫的有10類,大概就是一些比較一般性的物資\n\n15:27.131 --> 15:41.961\n我目前了解的比如說這個紡織品那個也算紡織品喔對對對他有10類你繼續把那5項念完你把那5項念完第5個是協助軍事警察單位擔任交通管制疏導等工作他是比較勤務性的\n\n15:42.261 --> 15:42.741\n這五個看起來都是情誤性\n\n16:02.921 --> 16:17.177\n所以我還是覺得學生不太適合在參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中不曉得最後再問一下不曉得部長認為學生在這個民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼\n\n16:17.858 --> 16:39.805\n我們來跟內政部協調有關民防法的這個部分學生這個他的主要的任務那我想還是以防作為自救護救作為一個重要的點另外我最後一個建議你們那個如果真的要寫學生的話也不要只定在什麼其他施行辦法就要在民防法裡面寫清楚\n\n16:40.265 --> 16:40.365\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.31,"end":7.048,"text":"謝謝主席我想請那個我們顧立雄部長還有中科院請顧部長"},{"start":13.502,"end":35.883,"text":"徐委員好部長好剛才呢馬委員有談到說呢中科院的專長應該要是飛檔其實我相當的認同從以前到現在不過呢我在上禮拜跟我們院長的這個質詢喔有點雞同鴨講似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼那你回答的問題也不是我想要問的喔所以呢我詢問的是前端的粗製品但你跟我提的是後續的精煉"},{"start":36.664,"end":54.163,"text":"所以第一個我想要先再請教一下你還是堅持只要過濾酸胺有觸碰到任何零包含是零的化合物都會爆炸嗎不包含化合物不包含化合物嗎所以我當天你要回想喔我當天有講到元素或是黃磷這兩個字嗎上個禮拜"},{"start":59.883,"end":76.479,"text":"沒有沒有嘛所以其實我上個禮拜其實我要談的就是零化合物但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的感受到的就是零的元素我根本我再一次我回去重複查看了我沒有講零元素或者是黃零我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面因為他檢測出來的時候他沒有辦法"},{"start":80.282,"end":105.596,"text":"知道它是哪一種化合物所以它只能分離說裡面的零跟鈣各是多少那這個時候呢您就把我曲解成了我說的是零的元素就不斷的提到會爆炸這件事情但是您講的並不是我問你的問題你回答的也不是我在問你的問題喔那好那既然呢你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說零元素也沒有說黃零所以也沒有爆炸的問題"},{"start":106.596,"end":135.831,"text":"那呢上一次提出的這幾張等一下到時候會提供給你們SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成可以看出其化合物的含量那就沒有所謂爆炸的這個問題所以呢今天我再拿出另外一個更完整的這個證據提供給大家來看2023年的6月我們所向美國所買的這個過濾酸胺也就是AP我想問請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP"},{"start":137.14,"end":164.455,"text":"有有嘛那TCP是什麼?磷酸三鈣磷酸三鈣嘛好所以呢我直接提出這個報告出來給大家看當時我們所購買的這個AP裡面呢就是過濾酸胺它就不只是單純的過濾酸胺這個化學式它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物其中在TCP的這個部分就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣裡面是有的"},{"start":164.915,"end":193.142,"text":"那他說他的這個Maxima是0.01他說因為他送來的是小於0.01所以是合可的這是他送給我們的報告的說法但我們今天要質疑的是其他的問題就是這個美方的資料很完整的提到購買的過濾酸胺裡面有做其他的添加那所以跟一般我們所單純講到的過濾酸胺並不相同他有很多的化合物添加在裡面那我要問院長的是"},{"start":194.082,"end":208.995,"text":"你知道為什麼美商賣來的這一批過濾酸胺裡面要再添加TCP的化合物嗎防凝結防凝結防止成為硬塊然後呢不會無法使用同意嗎"},{"start":210.222,"end":215.008,"text":"是,因為如果你這個過濾酸胺吸收到空氣的水分的話那它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用所以它加了這個TCP"},{"start":228.723,"end":251.814,"text":"但是呢我要問一下在我們中研院做非氮燃料測試的時候是否有內部的人員發現因為他的這個TCP他上來報告雖然他說他小於0.01但是他每一批貨的均勻度濃度純度不一樣所以導致有人發現這個有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況有沒有人跟你反應過"},{"start":252.634,"end":280.261,"text":"委員跟你保證絕對沒有沒有人跟你反應過這件事情絕對沒有那會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應但是有跟其他人反應我們不可能因為我們所有的製程我們那個評管是非常標準嚴格的您放心你覺得非常標準跟嚴格但是我們這裡收到的包含是我們中科院內部人員的吹哨者不少人都告訴我們說他們非常的擔憂所以既然你這麼有信心你回去再檢查一次那也沒問題吧"},{"start":281.101,"end":282.044,"text":"請說上禮拜您提供的那個SGS的報告有沒有"},{"start":288.154,"end":315.853,"text":"您注意到它的單位它用的是PPB注意一下那個B是B聯所以它就是十億分之一的單位所以您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話它是0.0017還小於原本原廠報告的十分之一我知道嘛它是小於沒有錯但我當時不是跟你談論說它的量的大跟小我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量跟大跟小的問題"},{"start":316.573,"end":341.579,"text":"我沒有我沒有問的事情我沒有講的事情你不要每次一直塞到嘴巴裡面就像我沒有說是零元素也沒有說是黃零你一直用這個曲解我我這樣我沒有辦法接受那所以說我上禮拜跟這禮拜我都沒有跟你談說是因為這個所謂的他的單位PPP大於所謂的TCP我到剛剛為止我都沒有這樣講這是你個人的說法我要講的是他從寄來樣品也好"},{"start":342.099,"end":359.709,"text":"然後呢到他第二次抽樣是在道港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣他的TCP他的比例是不一樣是不均勻的也就是說我們在這一批前期的粗製品的管理上面的品管做得不夠好我在談的是這件事情不是你剛剛說的PPB的問題請回應"},{"start":362.73,"end":378.395,"text":"委員他的抽樣三張第一個我上禮拜就已經直接看到這三個我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確我再強調一遍為什麼他的數據不正確為什麼我會直接懷疑他我們很少拿PPB來做"},{"start":381.483,"end":395.867,"text":"我告訴你他為什麼要這樣驗好不好因為他想要驗出說到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛那因為呢我們其實平常是我們如果好院長我問你喔我們自己國內生產的過濾酸胺裡面有沒有含TCP"},{"start":396.087,"end":418.16,"text":"沒有 因為他沒有嘛所以他為了要去了解說驗這個的理由是為了要去了解說我們向美方所採購進來的過濾酸胺裡面是完全的過濾酸胺還是有額外添加了化合物所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛所以跟你剛剛說的PPB跟你說的TCP是否小於0.001是沒有關聯的不是在問這個問題我是在問的是說我們來的這個粗製品的管理包含是檢驗我們有沒有做"},{"start":426.005,"end":453.772,"text":"有做了怎麼樣了很徹底而且很徹底那有沒有報告提供給我我們的報告沒有問題你們的禁料的檢驗是什麼時候做的2023年6月的這一批的禁料檢驗是什麼時候做的我們每一批禁料我們自己化學對我就問你20因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批嘛所以我只問你這一批的我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的結果是如何的"},{"start":454.386,"end":473.231,"text":"委員我只知道結果正常但時間我現在真的不知道你只知道結果正常那怎樣算正常你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好委員我跟您報告我們根本不會檢測TCP那個不是要檢測那你剛剛不是跟我說你要檢測我們檢測的是它裡面的其他化合物的含量其他化合物哪些化合物"},{"start":475.311,"end":494.297,"text":"那你剛剛講的好像什麼都懂的樣子我現在問你說那檢測哪些化合物你又不知道所以我要問你說那既然你說他出製的時候出製品進來的時候檢測有檢測哪些內容那這些內容分別他得到的比例是多少那所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的我現在問你的是請你具體針對這些部分回答我"},{"start":502.541,"end":519.041,"text":"我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的這絕對沒有問題第二個我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷這是在我問的是你們沒有檢測TCP那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP這是美國原廠提供的沒有 是我們跟他要的"},{"start":521.503,"end":547.955,"text":"對吧我們有沒有跟他要求提供給我們每一批進貨他一定要提供他自己的檢驗證明然後過來之後我還要再檢驗一遍所以嘛那他既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的那你有沒有針對他裡面的TCP出製品裡面每一批是否有均勻有符合我們的要求來提供檢測嘛然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗這個TCP那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多浪費大家這麼多時間是幹什麼呢"},{"start":549.096,"end":565.045,"text":"委員TCP在精煉的過程中間它根本因為它不溶於水就直接在精煉過程就被排除掉了你確定它會排除掉我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告沒有問題啊那請問我再問你一次啊那你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼你又說TCP沒有檢驗你又說你們都有檢驗那請問你們具體在6月的時候你檢測的內容是什麼2023年的6月進貨的這一批你們針對粗製品的檢測進行哪方面的檢測結果為何"},{"start":578.852,"end":600.859,"text":"委員我現在回答不出來現在回答不出來那你剛剛不是都說你都知道委員我知道它是合格的你知道它是合格但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊那不然我什麼我都在這裡跟你說合格就好我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了請問檢測了哪些項目請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告我現在真的說不出來"},{"start":602.455,"end":618.142,"text":"好吧那你現在說不出來我也沒有辦法繼續問只是呢我要再強調一次上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全的了解我在問什麼然後呢你就一直談爆炸爆炸爆炸現在直接已經告訴你了他就是一個"},{"start":619.721,"end":620.001,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":636.437,"end":664.775,"text":"所以在上禮拜我問你的時候你應該要很清楚我的意思如果你不是很確定你可以問我但是我沒有講零元素我也沒有講黃磷你就擅自把我的說法解讀為零元素接觸到所以會爆炸這對我們的質詢來說是覺得很荒謬的一件事情所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP就是有放"},{"start":665.515,"end":669.437,"text":"所以上禮拜你沒有回答完的這禮拜在這個地方所以拜託院長6月這個2023年6月這一批進貨之後何時檢測檢測了什麼檢測的結果是什麼請另外再給我一份報告既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚可以嗎"},{"start":685.863,"end":710.478,"text":"那我現在下一個問題了不好意思那那個我要問一下院長部長 院長請回那個院長我想要問一下因為最近很多家長來陳情那就是關於學生跟這個權動法之間的關係那我想要問一下這個支援軍事情務在我們的法律規定上面實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目"},{"start":713.294,"end":722.687,"text":"他按照事情細則應該是有八項嘛有八項對明方法這是按照明方法對明方法有哪八項"},{"start":726.206,"end":745.291,"text":"因為我時間也不太夠啦我直接講就是其實包含說搶收軍用機場啊然後你要去監視報告敵軍的空降飛彈襲擊的情形啊你要對空監視報告敵機的動向啊還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品啊比如說可能子彈啊等等的對空監視及報告敵機動態等等的那"},{"start":750.473,"end":752.134,"text":"部長你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎學生不會從事這些勤務也沒有規範因為他這是不會沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務"},{"start":763.089,"end":788.429,"text":"沒有但你在民防法第二條裡面有講到說支援軍事勤務嗎他是規範所有的民防團隊那是以民防總隊為主嗎並不是學生嗎那學生有沒有被包含在裡面沒有為什麼沒有被包含在裡面學生是在學生在底下的這個邊組那他們要做什麼呢他們就是在守護校園的安全守護校園的安全裡面民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條啊"},{"start":789.11,"end":803.327,"text":"他根據民放法規範在教育訓練當中他要如何自救互救這樣的一個訓練裡面沒有寫啊民防法裡面寫到的只有學生邊組而已他並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援"},{"start":805.104,"end":820.964,"text":"這個如果你要論的話是因為他有一個相關跟委員報告 如同委員所說的明確明確 實行細則他第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形"},{"start":821.505,"end":829.691,"text":"但是他除了民防法是延續的他有另外一個執法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作他這個民防團隊的編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法你也都很了解第43條裡面有說到就是說我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指的是民防總隊那民防總隊他其實就是縣府"},{"start":844.021,"end":850.663,"text":"縣府的一些工作人員那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡他有另外一個辦法在哪裡他在民防法第5條有說要訂一個學校防護團的辦法對 這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡對 他學校防護的辦法他第8條有講到說學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍有5點那他大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任比如說空襲來了又有空襲對 就是幫忙報告一下"},{"start":871.428,"end":873.489,"text":"協助民防團隊擔任空襲防護救護消防等工作那第二點是協助政府機關擔任宣導的工作第三點協助醫院"},{"start":895.904,"end":897.826,"text":"軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪些項目"},{"start":910.042,"end":925.23,"text":"這一個軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法,裡面寫的有10類,大概就是一些比較一般性的物資"},{"start":927.131,"end":941.961,"text":"我目前了解的比如說這個紡織品那個也算紡織品喔對對對他有10類你繼續把那5項念完你把那5項念完第5個是協助軍事警察單位擔任交通管制疏導等工作他是比較勤務性的"},{"start":942.261,"end":942.741,"text":"這五個看起來都是情誤性"},{"start":962.921,"end":977.177,"text":"所以我還是覺得學生不太適合在參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中不曉得最後再問一下不曉得部長認為學生在這個民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼"},{"start":977.858,"end":999.805,"text":"我們來跟內政部協調有關民防法的這個部分學生這個他的主要的任務那我想還是以防作為自救護救作為一個重要的點另外我最後一個建議你們那個如果真的要寫學生的話也不要只定在什麼其他施行辦法就要在民防法裡面寫清楚"},{"start":1000.265,"end":1000.365,"text":"主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時14分）謝謝主席，我想請顧立雄部長，還有中科院。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。剛才馬委員有談到中科院的專長應該是飛彈，其實我相當地認同，從以前到現在。不過我在上禮拜跟我們院長的質詢有點雞同鴨講，似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼，你回答的問題也不是我想要問的。我詢問的是前端的粗製品，但你跟我提的是後續的精煉。所以第一個問題，我想要先再請教一下，你還是堅持只要過氯酸銨有觸碰到任何磷，包含是磷的化合物，都會爆炸嗎？"],["李院長世強：報告，不包含化合物。"],["徐委員巧芯：不包含化合物嗎？你要回想哦！我當天有講到元素或是黃磷兩個字嗎？上個禮拜。"],["李院長世強：沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有嘛！所以其實我上個禮拜要談的就是磷化合物，但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的、感受到的就是磷的元素。我根本、我再一次回去重複查看了，我沒有講磷元素或者是黃磷，我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面，因為它檢測出來的時候，沒有辦法知道它是哪一種化合物，所以它只能分離出裡面的磷跟鈣各是多少。這個時候您就把我曲解成我說的是磷的元素，就不斷地提到會爆炸這件事情，但您講的並不是我問你的問題，你回答的也不是我在問你的問題。","好，既然你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說磷元素，也沒有說黃磷，所以也沒有爆炸的問題。上一次提出的這幾張，等一下會提供給你們，SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成，可以看出其化合物的含量，那就沒有所謂爆炸的問題。所以今天我再拿出另外一個更完整的證據，提供給大家看。2023年6月我們向美國所買的過氯酸銨，也就是AP，我想要請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP？"],["李院長世強：報告，有。"],["徐委員巧芯：有嘛！那TCP是什麼？"],["李院長世強：磷酸三鈣。"],["徐委員巧芯：磷酸三鈣嘛！所以我直接提出這個報告給大家看，當時我們所購買的AP裡面，就是過氯酸銨，它就不只是單純的過氯酸銨這個化學式，它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物。其中在TCP的部分，就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣，裡面是有的。它說它的maximum是0.01，它說因為它送來的是小於0.01，所以是核可的，這是它送給我們的報告的說法。","但我們今天要質疑的是其它的問題，就是美方的資料很完整地提到購買的過氯酸銨裡面有做其它的添加，所以跟一般我們單純講到的過氯酸銨並不相同，它有很多的化合物添加在裡面。我要問院長的是，你知道為什麼美商賣來的這一批過氯酸銨裡面要再添加TCP的化合物嗎？"],["李院長世強：防凝結。"],["徐委員巧芯：防凝結？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：防止成為硬塊？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：然後不會無法使用，同意嗎？"],["李院長世強：在我們加工精煉的過程中，如果它凝結了，是比較麻煩的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，因為如果這個過氯酸銨吸收到空氣的水分的話，它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊，那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用，所以它加了TCP。但是我要問一下，在我們中科院做飛彈燃料測試的時候，是否有內部的人員發現，雖然它送來的報告說它的TCP小於0.01，但是它每一批獲得的均勻度、濃度、純度都不一樣，所以導致有人發現有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況，有沒有人跟你反應過？"],["李院長世強：委員，跟您保證，絕對沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有人跟你反應過這件事情？"],["李院長世強：絕對沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應，但是有跟其它人反應？"],["李院長世強：委員，不可能，因為我們所有製程的品管是非常標準、嚴格的，您放心。"],["徐委員巧芯：你覺得非常標準跟嚴格，但是我們這裡收到的，包含中科院內部人員的吹哨者，不少人都告訴我們說他們非常地擔憂。所以既然你這麼有信心，你回去再檢查一次，那也沒問題吧？"],["李院長世強：沒問題。委員，可不可以給我30秒？"],["徐委員巧芯：請說。"],["李院長世強：上禮拜您提供的那個SGS報告，您注意到它的單位用的是ppb，注意一下那個b是billion，所以它就是10億分之1的單位。您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話，它是0.0017，還小於原本原廠報告的10分之1。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道嘛！它是小於沒有錯，但我當時不是跟你談論它的量的大跟小，我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量大跟小的問題？我沒有問的事情、我沒有講的事情，你不要每次都一直塞到嘴巴裡面。就像我沒有說是磷元素，也沒有說是黃磷，你一直用這個曲解我，這樣我沒有辦法接受。","我上禮拜跟這禮拜都沒有跟你談，是因為它的單位ppb大於所謂的TCP，我到剛剛為止都沒有這樣講，這是你個人的說法。我要講的是，它從寄來樣品也好，然後到它第二次抽樣，是到港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣，它TCP的比例是不一樣、是不均勻的。也就是說，我們在這一批前期的粗製品管理上面的品管做得不夠好。我在談的是這件事情，不是你剛剛說的ppb的問題。請回應。"],["李院長世強：好。委員，它的抽樣3張，第一個，我上禮拜看到這3個，我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確。我再強調一遍，為什麼它的數據不正確？為什麼我會直接懷疑它？我們很少拿ppb來做原料成分的計量單位。"],["徐委員巧芯：我告訴你它為什麼要這樣驗，好不好？因為它想要驗出到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛！院長，我問你，我們自己國內生產的過氯酸銨裡面有沒有含TCP？"],["李院長世強：沒有，因為它不去……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有嘛！所以驗這個的理由，是為了要去了解我們向美方所採購進來的過氯酸銨裡面是完全的過氯酸銨，還是有額外添加了化合物，所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛！所以跟你剛剛說的ppb和跟你說的TCP是否小於0.01是沒有關聯的，不是在問這個問題。我在問的是，我們來的粗製品的管理，包含檢驗，我們有沒有做？"],["李院長世強：報告，有。"],["徐委員巧芯：做得怎麼樣了？"],["李院長世強：很徹底，而且……"],["徐委員巧芯：很徹底？那有沒有報告提供給我？"],["李院長世強：我們的報告？沒有問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們進料的檢驗是什麼時候做的？2023年6月這一批的進料檢驗是什麼時候做的？"],["李院長世強：我們每一批進料，我們自己化學……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批，所以我只問你這一批我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的？結果是如何？"],["李院長世強：委員，我只知道結果正常，但時間我現在真的不知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：你只知道結果正常，那怎樣算正常？你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好？"],["李院長世強：委員，跟您報告，我們根本不會檢測TCP，那不是要檢測的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你剛剛不是跟我說你有檢測？"],["李院長世強：我們檢測的是它裡面其它化合物的含量……"],["徐委員巧芯：其它化合物？哪些化合物？"],["李院長世強：這個我再拿檢測報告給委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你剛剛講得好像什麼都懂的樣子，我現在問你說檢測哪些化合物，你又不知道。所以我要問你，既然你說它粗製品進來的時候有檢測，有檢測哪些內容？這些內容分別得到的比例是多少？所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的。我現在問你的是這個，請你具體針對這些部分回答我。"],["李院長世強：委員，我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的，這絕對沒有問題；第二個，我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷，這是在……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是，你們沒有檢測TCP，那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP？"],["李院長世強：這是美國原廠提供的。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，是我們跟它要的，對吧？我們有沒有跟它要求提供給我們？"],["李院長世強：每一批進貨，它一定要提供它自己的檢驗證明，然後過來之後，我還要再檢驗一遍。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以，它既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的，那你有沒有針對它的TCP粗製品裡面，每一批是否有均勻、有符合我們的要求來提供檢測？然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗TCP，那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多，浪費大家這麼多時間，是幹什麼呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，TCP在精煉的過程中間，因為它不溶於水，就直接在精煉過程被排除掉了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你確定它會排除掉？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告。"],["李院長世強：沒有問題啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：那我再問你一次，你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼？你又說TCP沒有檢驗，你又說你們都有檢驗，那請問你們具體在6月的時候檢測的內容是什麼？2023年6月進貨的這一批，你們針對粗製品的檢測，進行哪方面的檢測？結果為何？"],["李院長世強：委員，我現在回答不出來，但是我可以提供您報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：現在回答不出來，那你剛剛不是說你都知道？"],["李院長世強：委員，我知道它是合格的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你知道它是合格，但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊？不然我什麼都在這裡跟你說合格就好。我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了？請問檢測了哪些項目？"],["李院長世強：請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告，我現在真的說不出來啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好吧！你現在說不出來，我也沒有辦法繼續問。只是我要再強調一次，上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全地了解我在問什麼，然後你就一直談爆炸、爆炸、爆炸。現在已經直接告訴你了，它就是一個化合物，放在裡面。因為從美國過來，是為了不要讓它結塊而額外添加的化合物，在我們國內採購過氯酸銨的時候，是不必添加這種化合物的，它放了這個也沒有爆炸的問題，你也非常清楚。所以在上禮拜我問你的時候，你應該要很清楚我的意思，如果你不是很確定，你可以問我。但是我沒有講磷元素，我也沒有講黃磷，你就擅自把我的說法解讀為磷元素接觸到，所以會爆炸，這對我們的質詢來說，是覺得很荒謬的一件事情。所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們，告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP，就是有放！","上禮拜你沒有回答完的，這禮拜在這個地方，拜託！院長，2023年6月這一批進貨之後，何時檢測、檢測了什麼、檢測的結果是什麼，請另外再給我一份報告，既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚，可以嗎？"],["李院長世強：報告，可以。委員，我……"],["徐委員巧芯：好。那我現在要問下一個問題了，不好意思！我要問一下部長，院長請回。部長，最近很多家長來陳情，就是關於學生跟全動法之間的關係。我想要問一下，支援軍事勤務在我們的法律規定上面，實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目？"],["顧部長立雄：按照施行細則，應該是有8項。"],["徐委員巧芯：有8項？對。"],["顧部長立雄：這是按照民防法。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，民防法。有哪8項？因為我時間也不太夠，我直接講，就是包含搶修軍用機場；要去監視、報告敵軍空降、飛彈襲擊等情形；要對空監視、報告敵機的動向；還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品，比如說子彈等等；對空監視及報告敵機動態等等。部長，你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：學生不會從事這些勤務，也沒有規範，因為它沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務。"],["徐委員巧芯：但在民防法第二條裡面有講到支援軍事勤務。"],["顧部長立雄：它是規範所有的民防團隊，以民防總隊為主，並不是學生。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！那學生有沒有被包含在裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼沒有被包含在裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：學生是在……"],["徐委員巧芯：學生在底下的這個編組，那他們要做什麼呢？"],["顧部長立雄：他們就是在守護校園的安全，然後……"],["徐委員巧芯：守護校園的安全？民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條啊！"],["顧部長立雄：根據民防法，這個規範就是在教育訓練當中要如何自救、互救這樣的能力的訓練。"],["徐委員巧芯：裡面沒有寫啊！民防法裡面寫到的只有學生編組而已，它並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援。"],["顧部長立雄：如果你要論的話，是因為它有一個相關……請署長說明。"],["白署長捷隆：跟委員報告，如同委員所說的，民防法施行細則第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["白署長捷隆：但是它除了民防法施行細則，還有另外一個子法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作。民防團隊編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法，您也都很了解。第四十三條裡面有說到我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指的是民防總隊，民防總隊其實就是縣府的一些工作人員。"],["徐委員巧芯：那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡？"],["白署長捷隆：它有另外一個辦法……"],["徐委員巧芯：在哪裡？"],["白署長捷隆：在民防法第五條有說，要訂一個學校防護團的辦法。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡？"],["白署長捷隆：學校防護團的辦法第八條有講到，學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍，有五點，大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任……比如說空襲來了……"],["徐委員巧芯：又空襲？"],["白署長捷隆：對，就是幫忙報告一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：幫忙報告一下？OK，再來。"],["白署長捷隆：因為報告的時候，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：你五項全部唸出來好不好？不好意思！跟委員借一點時間，你直接把那五項唸出來。就是學生被編組之後，到底所謂的支援軍事勤務部分那五點是哪五點？你直接唸出來五點。"],["白署長捷隆：第一點，協助民防團隊，擔任空襲防護、救護、消防等工作。第二點，協助政府機關，擔任宣導工作。第三點，協助醫院、救護隊擔任救護工作。第四點，協助生產機構，擔任軍需物資生產工作……"],["徐委員巧芯：軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪一些項目？"],["白署長捷隆：軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法，裡面寫的有十類，大概就是一些比較一般性的物資。"],["徐委員巧芯：像什麼？"],["白署長捷隆：我目前了解的，比如說紡織品也算。"],["徐委員巧芯：紡織品喔？"],["白署長捷隆：對，共有十類，它有個法規。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你繼續把那五項唸完。"],["白署長捷隆：第五點，協助軍事、警察單位，擔任交通管制、疏導等工作。它是比較勤務性的。"],["徐委員巧芯：它是比較勤務性的？"],["白署長捷隆：對，這五個看起來都是勤務性。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是實際上面，你看包含是空襲也好，包含是在戰爭期間也好，這些學生編組還是要在外面活動，而不是像一般民眾在家裡等待救援，或者是像平民一樣，這都會徒增很多的風險，這也是很多家長來陳情說覺得很擔憂的地方。所以，我還是覺得學生不太適合參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中。最後再問一下，不曉得部長認為學生在民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們來跟內政部協調有關民防法中學生主要的任務，我想還是以自救、互救作為一個重要的點，好不好？"],["徐委員巧芯：好。另外，我最後一個建議，你們如果真的要寫學生的話，也不要只訂在什麼其它施行辦法，就要在民防法裡面寫清楚。否則的話，對於一般民眾來講，他看到民防法，然後整個法律看下來的時候，當然他就會認為他的孩子可能會被送上戰場，會有這樣子的一個理解，這對於整個政府在推行民防也是相當不利的。以上建議，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，部長請回。","修正宣告：待會林憶君委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}}