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{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 734.527, \"end\": 734.807, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 734.807, \"end\": 734.988, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 734.988, \"end\": 735.928, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 735.928, \"end\": 736.909, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 736.909, \"end\": 737.109, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 737.109, \"end\": 737.129, \"score\": 0.982}]}, {\"start\": 738.328, \"end\": 762.94, \"text\": \"被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 738.328, \"end\": 738.788, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 738.788, \"end\": 739.349, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 739.349, \"end\": 739.549, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 739.549, \"end\": 740.089, \"score\": 0.963}, 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\"我\", \"start\": 766.246, \"end\": 766.606, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 766.606, \"end\": 766.707, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 766.707, \"end\": 766.807, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 766.807, \"end\": 766.887, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 766.887, \"end\": 766.907, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 775.424, \"end\": 805.064, \"text\": \"我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我智商每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 775.424, \"end\": 775.644, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 775.644, \"end\": 775.764, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 775.764, \"end\": 775.904, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 775.904, \"end\": 776.044, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 776.044, \"end\": 776.665, 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{\"word\": \"慎\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 1127.652, \"end\": 1127.672, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,769 --> 00:00:14,004\n好謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃富密我也好\n\n2\n00:00:16,389 --> 00:00:34,107\n我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他所對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會這個上面這邊還有照片是\n\n3\n00:00:35,569 --> 00:00:52,588\n所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想這個應該是非常認同\n\n4\n00:00:55,205 --> 00:01:21,193\n其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害\n\n5\n00:01:22,174 --> 00:01:41,412\n我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成\n\n6\n00:01:42,113 --> 00:01:42,133\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n7\n00:02:03,513 --> 00:02:18,103\n越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後\n\n8\n00:02:37,041 --> 00:02:48,248\n剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞\n\n9\n00:02:49,659 --> 00:03:15,569\n否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們\n\n10\n00:03:17,332 --> 00:03:27,729\n那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情\n\n11\n00:03:31,363 --> 00:03:54,050\n每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己\n\n12\n00:03:55,014 --> 00:04:20,119\n一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件它的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說\n\n13\n00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:45,945\n總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面喔就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此喔最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守\n\n14\n00:04:47,898 --> 00:05:05,649\n總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧\n\n15\n00:05:07,233 --> 00:05:27,763\n總統,如果你說一定會做到,事實上是做不到的。我理解。不然就跟美國一樣,檢察官就不要來偵辦案件。完全公開,那也是個方式。如果做到偵查完全不公開,在我們台灣現在的體制裡面,你要完全做到,因為太多的變數,那是不可能的。所以你這樣答應說不做到,事實上做不到。\n\n16\n00:05:29,537 --> 00:05:58,222\n沒關係啊那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的啊其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在此希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無解只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那\n\n17\n00:06:14,281 --> 00:06:41,592\n那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後這麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然了現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面喔很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是\n\n18\n00:06:42,552 --> 00:06:43,713\n議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具\n\n19\n00:07:27,603 --> 00:07:41,799\n因為吳宗憲本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦\n\n20\n00:07:43,407 --> 00:08:10,976\n就中長你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟部長說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們\n\n21\n00:08:14,118 --> 00:08:31,774\n外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說\n\n22\n00:08:34,824 --> 00:08:48,109\n大家和就緝司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緝\n\n23\n00:08:51,440 --> 00:09:13,081\n違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟\n\n24\n00:09:14,011 --> 00:09:36,010\n委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講\n\n25\n00:09:36,610 --> 00:09:45,597\n所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的事務委員會說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就記的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題\n\n26\n00:09:51,621 --> 00:09:52,902\n但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說\n\n27\n00:10:13,604 --> 00:10:35,651\n如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚\n\n28\n00:10:36,912 --> 00:10:47,465\n會導致警察不敢做事就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚\n\n29\n00:11:35,347 --> 00:11:35,767\n總長還有黃次長我想請問一下\n\n30\n00:11:49,346 --> 00:12:17,129\n因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于儒那三位被告那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于儒這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告那結果呢\n\n31\n00:12:18,328 --> 00:12:42,940\n被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個\n\n32\n00:12:46,246 --> 00:12:46,907\n我跟總統報告一下\n\n33\n00:12:55,424 --> 00:13:25,064\n我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我智商每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個\n\n34\n00:13:26,084 --> 00:13:53,163\n此外,他們之前在普通法案審理的時候法官也多次說這個他不踩他的律師提過很多次但法官說不踩就這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要匪夷所思啦匪夷所思真的因為這樣的話以後我們所有的被告我只要到審理的時候我就主張我要做智力測驗\n\n35\n00:13:54,344 --> 00:13:54,364\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n36\n00:14:19,775 --> 00:14:30,563\n我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下\n\n37\n00:14:32,717 --> 00:14:52,409\n為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們是不是用無罪推定\n\n38\n00:14:53,922 --> 00:15:14,456\n這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定?如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一\n\n39\n00:15:16,597 --> 00:15:36,565\n那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政\n\n40\n00:15:37,557 --> 00:15:53,485\n一零二一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押\n\n41\n00:15:55,693 --> 00:16:22,225\n總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個\n\n42\n00:16:23,786 --> 00:16:50,163\n我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性\n\n43\n00:17:12,683 --> 00:17:27,310\n那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期\n\n44\n00:17:28,030 --> 00:17:46,929\n因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說\n\n45\n00:18:19,275 --> 00:18:45,791\n黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗\n\n46\n00:18:47,392 --> 00:18:47,672\n委員的正義感我們會審慎處理\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1769\t14004\t好 謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃富密我也好\n16389\t34107\t我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他所對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會這個上面這邊還有照片是\n35569\t52588\t所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想這個應該是非常認同\n55205\t81193\t其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害\n82174\t101412\t我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成\n102113\t102133\t議員鍾佳濱\n123513\t138103\t越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後\n138763\t156220\t﹏﹏﹏\n157041\t168248\t剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞\n169659\t195569\t否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們\n197332\t207729\t那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情\n211363\t234050\t每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己\n235014\t260119\t一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件它的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說\n264700\t285945\t總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面喔就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此喔最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守\n287898\t305649\t總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧\n307233\t327763\t總統,如果你說一定會做到,事實上是做不到的。我理解。不然就跟美國一樣,檢察官就不要來偵辦案件。完全公開,那也是個方式。如果做到偵查完全不公開,在我們台灣現在的體制裡面,你要完全做到,因為太多的變數,那是不可能的。所以你這樣答應說不做到,事實上做不到。\n329537\t358222\t沒關係啊那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的啊其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在此希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無解只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那\n359172\t373695\t﹏﹏\n374281\t401592\t那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後這麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然了現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面喔很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是\n402552\t403713\t議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具\n428404\t447483\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n447603\t461799\t因為吳宗憲本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦\n463407\t490976\t就中長你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟部長說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們\n494118\t511774\t外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說\n514824\t528109\t大家和就緝司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緝\n531440\t553081\t違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟\n554011\t576010\t委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講\n576610\t585597\t所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的事務委員會說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就記的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題\n591621\t592902\t但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說\n613604\t635651\t如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚\n636912\t647465\t會導致警察不敢做事就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚\n648439\t669650\t﹏﹏\n670162\t695247\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n695347\t695767\t總長還有黃次長我想請問一下\n709346\t737129\t因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于儒那三位被告那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于儒這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告那結果呢\n738328\t762940\t被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個\n766246\t766907\t我跟總統報告一下\n775424\t805064\t我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我智商每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個\n806084\t833163\t此外,他們之前在普通法案審理的時候法官也多次說這個他不踩他的律師提過很多次但法官說不踩就這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要匪夷所思啦匪夷所思真的因為這樣的話以後我們所有的被告我只要到審理的時候我就主張我要做智力測驗\n834344\t834364\t議員鍾佳濱\n859775\t870563\t我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下\n872717\t892409\t為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們是不是用無罪推定\n893922\t914456\t這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定?如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一\n916597\t936565\t那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政\n937557\t953485\t一零二一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押\n955693\t982225\t總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個\n983786\t1010163\t我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性\n1011561\t1032483\t⋯⋯⋯⋯\n1032683\t1047310\t那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期\n1048030\t1066929\t因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說\n1068695\t1098695\t﹏\n1099275\t1125791\t黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗\n1127392\t1127672\t委員的正義感我們會審慎處理\n","txt":"好 謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃富密我也好\n我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他所對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會這個上面這邊還有照片是\n所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想這個應該是非常認同\n其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害\n我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成\n議員鍾佳濱\n越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後\n﹏﹏﹏\n剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞\n否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們\n那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情\n每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己\n一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件它的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說\n總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面喔就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此喔最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守\n總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧\n總統,如果你說一定會做到,事實上是做不到的。我理解。不然就跟美國一樣,檢察官就不要來偵辦案件。完全公開,那也是個方式。如果做到偵查完全不公開,在我們台灣現在的體制裡面,你要完全做到,因為太多的變數,那是不可能的。所以你這樣答應說不做到,事實上做不到。\n沒關係啊那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的啊其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在此希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無解只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那\n﹏﹏\n那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後這麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然了現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面喔很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是\n議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n因為吳宗憲本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦\n就中長你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟部長說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們\n外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說\n大家和就緝司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緝\n違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟\n委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講\n所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的事務委員會說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就記的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題\n但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說\n如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚\n會導致警察不敢做事就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚\n﹏﹏\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n總長還有黃次長我想請問一下\n因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于儒那三位被告那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于儒這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告那結果呢\n被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個\n我跟總統報告一下\n我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我智商每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個\n此外,他們之前在普通法案審理的時候法官也多次說這個他不踩他的律師提過很多次但法官說不踩就這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要匪夷所思啦匪夷所思真的因為這樣的話以後我們所有的被告我只要到審理的時候我就主張我要做智力測驗\n議員鍾佳濱\n我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下\n為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們是不是用無罪推定\n這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定?如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一\n那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政\n一零二一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押\n總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個\n我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性\n⋯⋯⋯⋯\n那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期\n因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說\n﹏\n黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗\n委員的正義感我們會審慎處理\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.769 --> 00:14.004\n好謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃富密我也好\n\n00:16.389 --> 00:34.107\n我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他所對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會這個上面這邊還有照片是\n\n00:35.569 --> 00:52.588\n所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想這個應該是非常認同\n\n00:55.205 --> 01:21.193\n其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害\n\n01:22.174 --> 01:41.412\n我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成\n\n01:42.113 --> 01:42.133\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n02:03.513 --> 02:18.103\n越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後\n\n02:37.041 --> 02:48.248\n剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞\n\n02:49.659 --> 03:15.569\n否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們\n\n03:17.332 --> 03:27.729\n那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情\n\n03:31.363 --> 03:54.050\n每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己\n\n03:55.014 --> 04:20.119\n一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件它的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說\n\n04:24.700 --> 04:45.945\n總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面喔就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此喔最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守\n\n04:47.898 --> 05:05.649\n總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧\n\n05:07.233 --> 05:27.763\n總統,如果你說一定會做到,事實上是做不到的。我理解。不然就跟美國一樣,檢察官就不要來偵辦案件。完全公開,那也是個方式。如果做到偵查完全不公開,在我們台灣現在的體制裡面,你要完全做到,因為太多的變數,那是不可能的。所以你這樣答應說不做到,事實上做不到。\n\n05:29.537 --> 05:58.222\n沒關係啊那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的啊其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在此希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無解只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那\n\n06:14.281 --> 06:41.592\n那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後這麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然了現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面喔很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是\n\n06:42.552 --> 06:43.713\n議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具\n\n07:27.603 --> 07:41.799\n因為吳宗憲本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦\n\n07:43.407 --> 08:10.976\n就中長你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟部長說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們\n\n08:14.118 --> 08:31.774\n外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說\n\n08:34.824 --> 08:48.109\n大家和就緝司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緝\n\n08:51.440 --> 09:13.081\n違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟\n\n09:14.011 --> 09:36.010\n委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講\n\n09:36.610 --> 09:45.597\n所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的事務委員會說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就記的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題\n\n09:51.621 --> 09:52.902\n但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說\n\n10:13.604 --> 10:35.651\n如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚\n\n10:36.912 --> 10:47.465\n會導致警察不敢做事就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚\n\n11:35.347 --> 11:35.767\n總長還有黃次長我想請問一下\n\n11:49.346 --> 12:17.129\n因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于儒那三位被告那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于儒這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告那結果呢\n\n12:18.328 --> 12:42.940\n被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個\n\n12:46.246 --> 12:46.907\n我跟總統報告一下\n\n12:55.424 --> 13:25.064\n我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我智商每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個\n\n13:26.084 --> 13:53.163\n此外,他們之前在普通法案審理的時候法官也多次說這個他不踩他的律師提過很多次但法官說不踩就這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要匪夷所思啦匪夷所思真的因為這樣的話以後我們所有的被告我只要到審理的時候我就主張我要做智力測驗\n\n13:54.344 --> 13:54.364\n議員鍾佳濱\n\n14:19.775 --> 14:30.563\n我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下\n\n14:32.717 --> 14:52.409\n為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們是不是用無罪推定\n\n14:53.922 --> 15:14.456\n這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定?如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一\n\n15:16.597 --> 15:36.565\n那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政\n\n15:37.557 --> 15:53.485\n一零二一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押\n\n15:55.693 --> 16:22.225\n總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個\n\n16:23.786 --> 16:50.163\n我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性\n\n17:12.683 --> 17:27.310\n那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期\n\n17:28.030 --> 17:46.929\n因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說\n\n18:19.275 --> 18:45.791\n黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗\n\n18:47.392 --> 18:47.672\n委員的正義感我們會審慎處理\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.769,"end":14.004,"text":"好 謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃富密我也好"},{"start":16.389,"end":34.107,"text":"我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他所對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會這個上面這邊還有照片是"},{"start":35.569,"end":52.588,"text":"所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想這個應該是非常認同"},{"start":55.205,"end":81.193,"text":"其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害"},{"start":82.174,"end":101.412,"text":"我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成"},{"start":102.113,"end":102.133,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":123.513,"end":138.103,"text":"越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後"},{"start":138.763,"end":156.22,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":157.041,"end":168.248,"text":"剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞"},{"start":169.659,"end":195.569,"text":"否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們"},{"start":197.332,"end":207.729,"text":"那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情"},{"start":211.363,"end":234.05,"text":"每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己"},{"start":235.014,"end":260.119,"text":"一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件它的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說"},{"start":264.7,"end":285.945,"text":"總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面喔就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此喔最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守"},{"start":287.898,"end":305.649,"text":"總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧"},{"start":307.233,"end":327.763,"text":"總統,如果你說一定會做到,事實上是做不到的。我理解。不然就跟美國一樣,檢察官就不要來偵辦案件。完全公開,那也是個方式。如果做到偵查完全不公開,在我們台灣現在的體制裡面,你要完全做到,因為太多的變數,那是不可能的。所以你這樣答應說不做到,事實上做不到。"},{"start":329.537,"end":358.222,"text":"沒關係啊那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的啊其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在此希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無解只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那"},{"start":359.172,"end":373.695,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":374.281,"end":401.592,"text":"那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後這麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然了現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面喔很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是"},{"start":402.552,"end":403.713,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具"},{"start":428.404,"end":447.483,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":447.603,"end":461.799,"text":"因為吳宗憲本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦"},{"start":463.407,"end":490.976,"text":"就中長你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟部長說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們"},{"start":494.118,"end":511.774,"text":"外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說"},{"start":514.824,"end":528.109,"text":"大家和就緝司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緝"},{"start":531.44,"end":553.081,"text":"違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟"},{"start":554.011,"end":576.01,"text":"委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講"},{"start":576.61,"end":585.597,"text":"所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的事務委員會說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就記的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題"},{"start":591.621,"end":592.902,"text":"但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說"},{"start":613.604,"end":635.651,"text":"如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚"},{"start":636.912,"end":647.465,"text":"會導致警察不敢做事就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚"},{"start":648.439,"end":669.65,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":670.162,"end":695.247,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":695.347,"end":695.767,"text":"總長還有黃次長我想請問一下"},{"start":709.346,"end":737.129,"text":"因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于儒那三位被告那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于儒這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告那結果呢"},{"start":738.328,"end":762.94,"text":"被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個"},{"start":766.246,"end":766.907,"text":"我跟總統報告一下"},{"start":775.424,"end":805.064,"text":"我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我智商每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個"},{"start":806.084,"end":833.163,"text":"此外,他們之前在普通法案審理的時候法官也多次說這個他不踩他的律師提過很多次但法官說不踩就這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要匪夷所思啦匪夷所思真的因為這樣的話以後我們所有的被告我只要到審理的時候我就主張我要做智力測驗"},{"start":834.344,"end":834.364,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":859.775,"end":870.563,"text":"我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下"},{"start":872.717,"end":892.409,"text":"為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們是不是用無罪推定"},{"start":893.922,"end":914.456,"text":"這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定?如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一"},{"start":916.597,"end":936.565,"text":"那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政"},{"start":937.557,"end":953.485,"text":"一零二一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押"},{"start":955.693,"end":982.225,"text":"總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個"},{"start":983.786,"end":1010.163,"text":"我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性"},{"start":1011.561,"end":1032.483,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":1032.683,"end":1047.31,"text":"那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期"},{"start":1048.03,"end":1066.929,"text":"因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說"},{"start":1068.695,"end":1098.695,"text":" ﹏"},{"start":1099.275,"end":1125.791,"text":"黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗"},{"start":1127.392,"end":1127.672,"text":"委員的正義感我們會審慎處理"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時32分）謝謝。我們麻煩刑總長、黃次長和黃副秘。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我先請教刑總長好了。總長你好。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員你好。"],["吳委員宗憲：總長，上一次你也有參加林鈺雄老師的關於違法偵查救濟的研討會，這邊還有照片。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以說，其實從學界的角度來看，他們也是認為說，在執行偵查的時候，我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽，讓這個被調查者將來也能夠進行公平的審判。我想這個你應該非常認同。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那其實就是說，國家因為它掌有非常多的偵查武器，那我們身為民意代表，我們當然就會稍微看一下國家掌有這些偵查武器、偵查資源的時候，有沒有使用過度，去侵害到人權。或者是說，我們希望人民能夠受到公平的審判，那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為，反而導致人權受到侵害？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：對，我非常認同。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，好，謝謝總長。","總長剛剛講的一個東西，其實我可以認同總長跟很多委員所說的一個部分，就是有很多委員提到，最近偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決，那總長當然是說，因為歷次的修法造成偵查不公開在執行上面會越來越困難，例如說，羈押律師可以閱卷，這也是洩出一些偵查秘密的管道，這個我都經歷過，我可以認同，但是現在有一個問題，就是說，因為最近這幾年偵查期間資料外洩的狀況越來越嚴重，你看最近有週刊就是逐週在報導，這些東西當然部長歷次都說這些人爆的不一定是事實，可能自己猜的，但是在起訴之後，相關的卷證資料曝光，我們就知道這些東西是不是真的。你再回過頭去看，之前有幾個案子已經起訴，結果資料外洩出來，譬如說，林姿妙的案子，搜索現場的照片在搜索完就流出來，像這個，我覺得這些都是不應該啦。","我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足，但是配套不足，是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院，開始就配套的部分，要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞？否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開，但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開，那我們也不能說因為配套不足，所以無能為力，或者是說，像部長來，他是說，因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了，有院方的、有檢方的、有司法警察，甚至有律師、有當事人，所以沒辦法。我覺得公部門不能這樣回答嘛。那我想請教一下，總長，有沒有一個思考，將來怎麼樣請部裡面跟司法院協調這件事情？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：每個案件的類型不一樣，每個案件的型態、主客觀條件都不一樣，如果說有違反偵查不公開的話，它所呈現的態樣、面貌、途徑也都各有不同。但不管怎麼樣，檢察官既然是偵查的主體，最起碼我們檢察官自己一定要堅守偵查不公開，所以在每一個專案會議的時候，我在前面一定跟檢察官講，偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職，也是我們檢察官的道德。我再講回來剛剛前面的，因為每個案件的型態不一樣，比如說，有的案件被害人很多，參與的人很多，那保密當然就比較困難。有的是很縝密的案件，比如說，國安的案件會比較少人知道，洩密的管道就比較少……"],["吳委員宗憲：總長，我們兩個都是專業的，我也幹了二十年檢察官，所以我們不要去講那些場面話，我們直接切重點。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：所以我跟委員報告，這裡面就回到問題的重點了，因為型態各有不同，你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法，因此最重要的，檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候，偵查不公開這個規定我們要遵守。"],["吳委員宗憲：總長，你現在還是沒有回答到，那這樣就變成是無解嘛。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：跟委員報告，這是一個供需的問題啦，只能儘量啦，只能儘量，不可能完全都沒有，這不可能，要不然就跟美國一樣……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以對於偵查不公開，官方的想法就是儘量喔？這樣不太好吧？總長，我絕對不會……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：如果你講說一定會做到，事實上是做不到。"],["吳委員宗憲：我理解。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：要不然就跟美國一樣，那檢察官就不要來偵辦案件，完全公開，那也是一個方式，如果要做到偵查完全不公開，在我們臺灣現在的體制裡面，要完全做到，因為太多的變數，那是不可能的啦！所以你答應說要做到，事實上他做不到。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係啦。總長，因為我沒有問到我要的，總長，我們都是內行人，回答我的話，我們就直接切重點，講該講的，場面話我覺得不需要，我還是這樣希望，我在此希望……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我要說那不是場面話，事實上就是這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那就是無解，只能儘量嘛！所以我在這邊還是滿希望的啦。總長，因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛，還是要麻煩你能夠跟檢察官講，拜託他們要嚴守偵查不公開，檢察官在每個案子就是偵查主體的指揮官，他也要去要求他所帶的一些司法警察及地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分，麻煩總長能夠做到。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：等一下，如果說讓民眾認為我們都沒有做到，就違反偵查不公開的話，事實上就在摧毀司法的威信，其實我們看到都非常痛心。當然現在洩露出來的到底是不是偵查內容，有沒有真，有沒有假，這就不一定。因此我要跟委員報告，這裡面很多牽涉到案件偵辦的性質，有些東西最後還是我們檢察官要儘量在我們自己能夠掌控的部分掌控。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我知道很多資料現在洩出來的一定有很多是以訛傳訛的假東西，這個我們都能夠理解，但是我今天就有講，我沒有下定論，最近鬧得那麼轟轟烈烈的事，我沒有下過定論，我只說起訴以後，如果我們從卷證資料來看，這些記者爆出來的資料，如果確實是卷證資料裡面有，而且本來就不應該流出去的，那又是另外一個問題。剛剛我有說到，我是就之前有幾件已經起訴的案子，或者是為什麼楊文科被搜索完隔沒有多久，連他家裡扣掉多少錢，記者都會知道，所以這個就不應該嘛，楊文科本人說：「對，我就是被扣那麼多錢啊。」所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道，根本隔天新聞一出來，他就說：「我就是扣掉那麼多錢。」為什麼外界會知道？所以我還是這樣子希望，就是總長你剛剛說的，因為多次違反偵查不公開，對司法的威信傷害很重，對執政黨也傷害很重，因為有人就開始穿鑿附會，說是賴政府下令要幹這個事，我是不相信啦，但是很多民眾會信嘛，有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題，所以對政府也不好，對檢察體系也不好，我在意的是這個點，所以跟部長說明這個部分。那一樣，我還是滿希望的啦，外界現在誤認正義是向政治力傾斜，所以麻煩一定要注意這個。而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來，像我們民意代表要監督政府，不是護航政府，司法也不是護航政府啦。所以我們還是希望大家，尤其是司法人員，一定要注意到這個部分。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我再問一下司法院。我想請問一下，法官、檢察官如果違法裝GPS調查人民，依現行法人民可不可以救濟？違法裝GPS調查人民，現行法有沒有辦法救濟？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果是法官、檢察官的話，依照第一百五十三條之十，就是可以救濟。"],["吳委員宗憲：可以救濟。那請問一下，如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權，自己去裝，那有沒有辦法救濟？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，一開始我們的書面報告就有寫，我們原來的草案是說，以層級化的方式規劃，所以在本案裡面，依照刑訴第一百五十八條之四的證據排除，假設他本身有故意過失，造成人民隱私受害的話，有國家賠償，行政責任更不必講，所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身處分的合法性，所以我們的書面報告是說，到底是要在前階段就做一個不法宣告，還是到後階段真正實際救濟的時候去做判斷，這是一個政策的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：不過，因為我看過你們的報告，你們是認為可以用國賠或個資法去救濟，對不對？但是在我的立場，因為當初我推的版本其實是有包括到司法警察的部分也可以救濟，當然通過的版本是依照司法院的版本，就是沒有嘛！但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法，我認為說，如果司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話，可以用什麼救濟？就是他直接去提告要求國賠或用個資法就可以的話，那法官、檢察官也可以啊，為什麼法官、檢察官有一個救濟方式，結果司法警察卻沒有？那這個會導致什麼問題？因為我們實務界出來的，我們很清楚，會導致警察不敢做事啊。就像醫生的預防性醫療一樣，很多事情就不幹了嘛。然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況，修法前我們都很清楚，不能裝GPS的時代，警察就是去找徵信社去偷裝嘛，實務都這樣做啊。我們現在面對現實遇到這個狀況，所以是不是變成是司法警察如果做這些事情，刑事訴訟法也可以救濟，至少讓警察做事情比較不怕，否則現在警察在決定到底該做不做時，他又要再想，因為做了會被告，像最早海巡裝GPS被判刑的那個人一樣，他覺得自己這麼努力查緝毒品，結果到最後被判刑了。我是提我的想法，就是當初我自己的版本是這樣。好，沒關係，我們將來也可以再慢慢地討論這個部分。","因為時間的關係，最後我延續剛剛幾個委員所提到的問題。總長、黃次長，我想請問一下，這一次憲判確實有點名5個死刑犯要非常上訴，我想你一定很清楚，就是擄人勒贖唯一死刑那兩位，以及有三位被認為有精神障礙的，譬如說林于如那三位被告，我現在就發現一個問題，以林于如這個案子為例好了，當時其實是判決三審定讞死刑的被告，結果他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗，只有57分，然後就被認為說他沒有受審的能力。那我想請問一下，總長，你認同精神障礙的問題可以用單一的智力測驗就做認定嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我要說明一下，因為我們不是專家啦，不過依照一般的常識，我個人認為，的確這樣是不夠的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟總長報告一下，我之前有提過，一個智商57的人要把自己演成110的很難，但是一個智商110的人要演成自己只有57，非常簡單，智力測驗每一題都故意寫錯，那最後分數就剩下57，所以依照我國刑法第十九條，其實是以行為時為準，我們只看行為時的精神狀況，並沒有看就審或受刑這一段時間的精神狀況嘛。當然我不懂，這跟總長也無關，大法官這一次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的要就審期間的精神狀況也要出來，所以這個地方我就覺得很怪，更何況，他們之前在普通法院審理的時候，法官也多次說這個他不採，他的律師提過很多次，但法官說不採，結果這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要，匪夷所思啦！匪夷所思！真的。因為這樣的話，以後我們所有的被告只要到審理的時候就可主張要做智力測驗，要做出來很低我也可以，說真的，我大學的時候做智力測驗是146，可是我現在要把自己做成46我覺得也很簡單，自己算一算哪幾題全部答錯就好，所以這個地方我真的是要麻煩總長注意一下，因為非常上訴是您要提的，我非常尊重你，我以前在當檢察官的時候就非常尊重你，這裡我不再去提別的，但還有幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下。最近我一直強調非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題，我一直點出這個，但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點出這個問題，因為這非常的嚴重。我想請教總長，當被告非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候，他們適不適用無罪推定？這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：如果法院撤銷的話，當然就回歸到無罪推定。"],["吳委員宗憲：一定回歸到無罪推定，這就是我國的法制，所以我說我們將來可能會遇到的問題是第一個、法官可能不押，因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了，因為我國羈押就只有依據第一百零一條和第一百零一條之一，那將來回歸到普通法院之後，如果你們要建議法官羈押，我想請教總長，當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候，要依據哪一條條文？因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押，他符合哪個條文？第一百零一條只有逃亡、滅證才適用，第一百零一條之一是反覆實施，他在裡面關了二十幾年，我怎麼認定他反覆實施？所以跟總長報告，第一個點是這37個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法院審理，就有可能法官不裁押，部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧，問題是萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦？或者是因為他很有智慧，我國又是成文法國家，所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候，他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定，不押怎麼辦？因為總長您的非常上訴讓這37個死刑犯裡面部分人回歸普通法院審理的時候，回歸那一天他就回家啦！這很恐怖耶！第二個是剛剛羅智強委員有提到羈押的期限，回歸到二審的話剩下15個月，在這15個月裡你們又要做精神鑑定又要開庭，又要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子，我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完，15個月期限一到就只能放人，沒有第二條路，這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性。第三個是假釋的問題，因為依據刑法施行法第七之一條、第七之二條，這些人的假釋門檻是「適用行為時」，也就是說他們是適用舊法15年的假釋規定，所以這些人只要一回歸到普通法院，他可能很快就可以申請假釋了，在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛，那怎麼辦？你又沒有駁回的理由，你要讓他假釋嗎？第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期，因為以前的規定是死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折抵刑期，而且以前也沒毛病，因為你都要槍決了還折抵什麼刑期啊！所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折抵刑期的問題，但是我跟你百分之百保證，會有一群人權團體出來說這些人的收容期間憑什麼不能折抵刑期，所以變成說有一些收容人他如果記錄刑期的話，立刻可以申請假釋。","這四個問題是我這個笨蛋頭腦想到的，我這一個月來每天為了這四個問題該怎麼解決其實很煩惱，我真的不是找大家麻煩，只是認為大法官捅了一個大簍子！大法官完全搞不清楚實務運作的問題出在哪！所以我真的拜託黃次長、拜託總長、拜託副秘，一定要解決這四個問題，否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師，隨便就能打趴法官，讓法官把這些人放出來，我可以舉一大堆理由、一大堆裁定的前例、一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押，這些人必須放出去，這是我一直煩惱的事。我真的不是在找官員的麻煩，今天點出的這些是我20年實務經驗下來覺得解決不了的問題，這些問題跟三位完全無關，是大法官──那偉大的大法官捅出來的婁子！在這邊跟各位報告，再麻煩各位要以蒼生為念，要替我們社會上這些百姓想想，今天這些人如果回到社會跟我住同一個社區，我說真的，我不敢讓小孩子晚上出門，不敢讓小孩子獨自出門。再麻煩各位！謝謝各位！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員的正義感我們會審慎處理。謝謝！"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答完畢為止。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員發言，王鴻薇、王鴻薇。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅。","接下來我們請陳俊宇委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","陳俊宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員鍾佳濱等19人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1139001_00001"}}}