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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 502.917, \"end\": 503.017, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 503.017, \"end\": 503.357, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 503.357, \"end\": 503.417, \"score\": 0.638}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 503.417, \"end\": 503.437, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:23,542\n副部長辛苦到現在不過我想先請教一下因為今天早上聽說我們衛環委員會一開始的時候沒有辦法順利的進行詢答那最主要是有一些委員在詢問那甚至還有程序發言然後還特別提到說不清楚說到底壯世代什麼叫壯世代定義不明定義不清請教部長壯世代是什麼\n\n2\n00:00:25,684 --> 00:00:29,947\n來部長你知不知道你們勞動部在今年2月有一個55plus壯世代就業促進措施\n\n3\n00:00:44,926 --> 00:00:58,480\n你今年2月55plus壯世代就業促進措施啊你不知道你說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了欸那你難道不知道壯世代是什麼\n\n4\n00:00:59,451 --> 00:01:17,573\n再來今年9月2號勞動部的臉書勞動部攜手壯世代迎向就業新時代和沛山部長親接雲嘉南銀髮人才中心資源然後為勞動部壯世代就業網路再添亮點\n\n5\n00:01:19,482 --> 00:01:42,871\n欸9月2號你們臉書上宣傳壯世代就你現在說你不知道這個定義我不是說不知道是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議啦這我是支持的那當然這個法案裡面是說50歲以上可是我認為當然現在有很多委員認為55歲以上不清楚啦對有很多委員認為不清楚但是我們行政部門都很清楚啊甚至\n\n6\n00:01:44,852 --> 00:01:59,492\n吳春城委員在質詢總質詢這個行政院院長卓龍泰的時候卓龍泰表示他自己就是吳春城口中的壯世代所以連院長都清楚他就是壯世代的時候為什麼我們現在還有定義不清定義不明的問題\n\n7\n00:02:00,313 --> 00:02:18,321\n但是委員就是說我們講的定義不清是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義所以這個會變成各說各話比如說吳委員講的是55歲以上或者是我們行政好我們也見到這個概念可是我們覺得這一個東西它\n\n8\n00:02:49,682 --> 00:03:18,277\n可以再討論再來第二個部分大家都已經講了其實我們對於人口的問題非常的擔憂因為我們真的是沒有人口紅利了嘛尤其是像明年三個月後65歲以上的人口就有20%全台灣五個人以上就有一位是65歲以上是不是這樣那現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會討論的就是少子化的現況對策交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工的問題\n\n9\n00:03:19,398 --> 00:03:28,365\n所以今天光我們立法院7個委員會在開會的時候就有3個委員會其實核心概念價值都是一個缺工嘛\n\n10\n00:03:29,335 --> 00:03:58,263\n我們為什麼會討論壯世代就是希望說延長退休的門檻讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續的付出投入我們討論少子化經濟發展也是認為是說我們現在缺工的問題很嚴重交通也是一樣沒有駕駛國道客運一般的公車大貨車沒有找到駕駛啊那這問題難道不嚴重嗎所以其實部長我覺得這就不能只是從勞動部的本位主義來看啊\n\n11\n00:03:59,233 --> 00:04:10,462\n還有其實這一個法案我為什麼我也共同提案一起希望能夠有這個立法就是因為它其實是政策跟產業發展重點在於是產業發展\n\n12\n00:04:14,451 --> 00:04:35,803\n年長者中高齡者他絕對不會是障礙他反而是一個助力以前我們的觀念會覺得說中高齡者可能他體力衰退了或說什麼樣所以說他可能對於產業不利但是現在的醫學進步以及科技發達反而中高齡者他的經驗如果能夠傳承的話對於產業是有有益的\n\n13\n00:04:36,784 --> 00:05:05,467\n所以我現在也請教一下處長喔不好意思處長您上來我其實最主要是要請教因為我有看到行政院的報告是講是說院長已經有責成我們的政務委員陳時中已經開過三次會是不是那說10月31號會報行政院會會報什麼樣的資料給行政院會呃勞動部會提一個壯世代的社會參與的促進方案他會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會嗯\n\n14\n00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:28,472\n所以他會提壯世代的社會參與對促進方案那如果說這樣的話又跟剛剛部長講部長不是講是說不能用壯世代這個名詞不要用壯世代這樣那就勞動部自己要提壯世代的就業服務方案公務員報告因為剛才部長也提到壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的可是我們會推動因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的是所以\n\n15\n00:05:28,952 --> 00:05:51,141\n為了要推動這個方案的話我們把壯世代稍微定義說是針對55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者因為這邊考慮到說我們現在有超過13%的話是失能者所以你失能者﹖年長到一個階段沒有錯這個其實大家都理解嘛\n\n16\n00:05:51,801 --> 00:06:15,754\n就是說可以投入勞動市場的人他本身如果說是有身體疾病或是真的他無行為能力當然我們不能把他算進來啊是啊所以在整體推動上我們是支持說用方案計畫來推動因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書跟應用超高齡社會對策方案在服務以現在我們長照2.0要把它提升為長照3.0\n\n17\n00:06:17,515 --> 00:06:40,270\n希望未來建構的,再搭配壯世代的部分建構是一個完整的高齡的政策方案拜託跟麻煩因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊有開過會但是幾個觀念一定要帶回去第一日本也有很多的長照他是以初老來服務中老有55歲65歲的人來服務75歲85歲的人\n\n18\n00:06:43,956 --> 00:07:08,409\n那這就是一個引法共榮共存的概念第二延長這所謂的這個退休年齡以外怎麼樣能夠讓產業有更多的誘因能夠來禁用而不是認為是說他們是老人企業這個部分也要方面去思考還有第三我覺得最重要的是為什麼會提出壯世代就是因為過去用引法用中高齡者\n\n19\n00:07:09,470 --> 00:07:29,628\n會讓大家會有一個比較負面的標籤所以說才會希望是說符合現行的民意現行的民情壯世代他們是壯世代對比是什麼就是輕壯世代嘛輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人那45歲以上以前叫我不知道處長你有沒有看過\n\n20\n00:07:31,127 --> 00:07:51,725\n甚至有媒體報導上街頭遊行這是確實的他說上街頭遊行我看到了51歲的老翁他也站出來了你有沒有看過這種報導有記者連線的時候他說哇今天非常熱鬧這個遊行大家站出來了連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了來我們請教這個老翁的看法\n\n21\n00:07:52,925 --> 00:08:08,367\n這以前人家這樣子連線你會覺得好像但是你現在聽我這樣講好像覺得哪裡怪怪的因為現在其實連71歲我都不一定覺得說如果說他體態保持良好身體健康肌力夠他都不一定可以稱為老翁對不對\n\n22\n00:08:10,287 --> 00:08:23,437\n我們期待行政院有拿出真正正正符合民情的版本那我們也希望未來這一個法案在衛環委員會進入到主條的時候我們再討論而行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊好不好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t23542\t副部長辛苦到現在不過我想先請教一下因為今天早上聽說我們衛環委員會一開始的時候沒有辦法順利的進行詢答那最主要是有一些委員在詢問那甚至還有程序發言然後還特別提到說不清楚說到底壯世代什麼叫壯世代定義不明定義不清請教部長壯世代是什麼\n25684\t29947\t來部長你知不知道你們勞動部在今年2月有一個55plus壯世代就業促進措施\n44926\t58480\t你今年2月55plus壯世代就業促進措施啊你不知道你說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了欸那你難道不知道壯世代是什麼\n59451\t77573\t再來今年9月2號勞動部的臉書 勞動部攜手壯世代迎向就業新時代和沛山部長親接雲嘉南銀髮人才中心資源然後為勞動部壯世代就業網路再添亮點\n79482\t102871\t欸9月2號你們臉書上宣傳壯世代就你現在說你不知道這個定義我不是說不知道是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議啦這我是支持的那當然這個法案裡面是說50歲以上可是我認為當然現在有很多委員認為55歲以上不清楚啦對有很多委員認為不清楚但是我們行政部門都很清楚啊甚至\n104852\t119492\t吳春城委員在質詢總質詢這個行政院院長卓龍泰的時候卓龍泰表示他自己就是吳春城口中的壯世代所以連院長都清楚他就是壯世代的時候為什麼我們現在還有定義不清定義不明的問題\n120313\t138321\t但是委員就是說我們講的定義不清是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義所以這個會變成各說各話比如說吳委員講的是55歲以上或者是我們行政好我們也見到這個概念可是我們覺得這一個東西它\n139462\t169462\t⋯⋯⋯\n169682\t198277\t可以再討論再來第二個部分大家都已經講了其實我們對於人口的問題非常的擔憂因為我們真的是沒有人口紅利了嘛尤其是像明年三個月後65歲以上的人口就有20%全台灣五個人以上就有一位是65歲以上是不是這樣那現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會討論的就是少子化的現況對策交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工的問題\n199398\t208365\t所以今天光我們立法院7個委員會在開會的時候就有3個委員會其實核心概念價值都是一個缺工嘛\n209335\t238263\t我們為什麼會討論壯世代就是希望說延長退休的門檻讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續的付出投入我們討論少子化經濟發展也是認為是說我們現在缺工的問題很嚴重交通也是一樣沒有駕駛國道客運一般的公車大貨車沒有找到駕駛啊那這問題難道不嚴重嗎所以其實部長我覺得這就不能只是從勞動部的本位主義來看啊\n239233\t250462\t還有其實這一個法案我為什麼我也共同提案一起希望能夠有這個立法就是因為它其實是政策跟產業發展重點在於是產業發展\n254451\t275803\t年長者中高齡者他絕對不會是障礙他反而是一個助力以前我們的觀念會覺得說中高齡者可能他體力衰退了或說什麼樣所以說他可能對於產業不利但是現在的醫學進步以及科技發達反而中高齡者他的經驗如果能夠傳承的話對於產業是有有益的\n276784\t305467\t所以我現在也請教一下處長喔不好意思處長您上來我其實最主要是要請教因為我有看到行政院的報告是講是說院長已經有責成我們的政務委員陳時中已經開過三次會是不是那說10月31號會報行政院會會報什麼樣的資料給行政院會呃勞動部會提一個壯世代的社會參與的促進方案他會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會嗯\n306880\t328472\t所以他會提壯世代的社會參與對促進方案那如果說這樣的話又跟剛剛部長講部長不是講是說不能用壯世代這個名詞不要用壯世代這樣那就勞動部自己要提壯世代的就業服務方案公務員報告因為剛才部長也提到壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的可是我們會推動因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的是所以\n328952\t351141\t為了要推動這個方案的話我們把壯世代稍微定義說是針對55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者因為這邊考慮到說我們現在有超過13%的話是失能者所以你失能者﹖年長到一個階段沒有錯這個其實大家都理解嘛\n351801\t375754\t就是說可以投入勞動市場的人他本身如果說是有身體疾病或是真的他無行為能力當然我們不能把他算進來啊是啊所以在整體推動上我們是支持說用方案計畫來推動因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書跟應用超高齡社會對策方案在服務以現在我們長照2.0要把它提升為長照3.0\n377515\t400270\t希望未來建構的,再搭配壯世代的部分建構是一個完整的高齡的政策方案拜託跟麻煩因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊有開過會但是幾個觀念一定要帶回去第一日本也有很多的長照他是以初老來服務中老有55歲65歲的人來服務75歲85歲的人\n403956\t428409\t那這就是一個引法共榮共存的概念第二延長這所謂的這個退休年齡以外怎麼樣能夠讓產業有更多的誘因能夠來禁用而不是認為是說他們是老人企業這個部分也要方面去思考還有第三我覺得最重要的是為什麼會提出壯世代就是因為過去用引法用中高齡者\n429470\t449628\t會讓大家會有一個比較負面的標籤所以說才會希望是說符合現行的民意現行的民情壯世代他們是壯世代對比是什麼就是輕壯世代嘛輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人那45歲以上以前叫我不知道處長你有沒有看過\n451127\t471725\t甚至有媒體報導上街頭遊行這是確實的他說上街頭遊行我看到了51歲的老翁他也站出來了你有沒有看過這種報導有記者連線的時候他說哇今天非常熱鬧這個遊行大家站出來了連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了來我們請教這個老翁的看法\n472925\t488367\t這以前人家這樣子連線你會覺得好像但是你現在聽我這樣講好像覺得哪裡怪怪的因為現在其實連71歲我都不一定覺得說如果說他體態保持良好身體健康肌力夠他都不一定可以稱為老翁對不對\n490287\t503437\t我們期待行政院有拿出真正正正符合民情的版本那我們也希望未來這一個法案在衛環委員會進入到主條的時候我們再討論而行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊好不好以上謝謝\n","txt":"副部長辛苦到現在不過我想先請教一下因為今天早上聽說我們衛環委員會一開始的時候沒有辦法順利的進行詢答那最主要是有一些委員在詢問那甚至還有程序發言然後還特別提到說不清楚說到底壯世代什麼叫壯世代定義不明定義不清請教部長壯世代是什麼\n來部長你知不知道你們勞動部在今年2月有一個55plus壯世代就業促進措施\n你今年2月55plus壯世代就業促進措施啊你不知道你說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了欸那你難道不知道壯世代是什麼\n再來今年9月2號勞動部的臉書 勞動部攜手壯世代迎向就業新時代和沛山部長親接雲嘉南銀髮人才中心資源然後為勞動部壯世代就業網路再添亮點\n欸9月2號你們臉書上宣傳壯世代就你現在說你不知道這個定義我不是說不知道是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議啦這我是支持的那當然這個法案裡面是說50歲以上可是我認為當然現在有很多委員認為55歲以上不清楚啦對有很多委員認為不清楚但是我們行政部門都很清楚啊甚至\n吳春城委員在質詢總質詢這個行政院院長卓龍泰的時候卓龍泰表示他自己就是吳春城口中的壯世代所以連院長都清楚他就是壯世代的時候為什麼我們現在還有定義不清定義不明的問題\n但是委員就是說我們講的定義不清是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義所以這個會變成各說各話比如說吳委員講的是55歲以上或者是我們行政好我們也見到這個概念可是我們覺得這一個東西它\n⋯⋯⋯\n可以再討論再來第二個部分大家都已經講了其實我們對於人口的問題非常的擔憂因為我們真的是沒有人口紅利了嘛尤其是像明年三個月後65歲以上的人口就有20%全台灣五個人以上就有一位是65歲以上是不是這樣那現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會討論的就是少子化的現況對策交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工的問題\n所以今天光我們立法院7個委員會在開會的時候就有3個委員會其實核心概念價值都是一個缺工嘛\n我們為什麼會討論壯世代就是希望說延長退休的門檻讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續的付出投入我們討論少子化經濟發展也是認為是說我們現在缺工的問題很嚴重交通也是一樣沒有駕駛國道客運一般的公車大貨車沒有找到駕駛啊那這問題難道不嚴重嗎所以其實部長我覺得這就不能只是從勞動部的本位主義來看啊\n還有其實這一個法案我為什麼我也共同提案一起希望能夠有這個立法就是因為它其實是政策跟產業發展重點在於是產業發展\n年長者中高齡者他絕對不會是障礙他反而是一個助力以前我們的觀念會覺得說中高齡者可能他體力衰退了或說什麼樣所以說他可能對於產業不利但是現在的醫學進步以及科技發達反而中高齡者他的經驗如果能夠傳承的話對於產業是有有益的\n所以我現在也請教一下處長喔不好意思處長您上來我其實最主要是要請教因為我有看到行政院的報告是講是說院長已經有責成我們的政務委員陳時中已經開過三次會是不是那說10月31號會報行政院會會報什麼樣的資料給行政院會呃勞動部會提一個壯世代的社會參與的促進方案他會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會嗯\n所以他會提壯世代的社會參與對促進方案那如果說這樣的話又跟剛剛部長講部長不是講是說不能用壯世代這個名詞不要用壯世代這樣那就勞動部自己要提壯世代的就業服務方案公務員報告因為剛才部長也提到壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的可是我們會推動因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的是所以\n為了要推動這個方案的話我們把壯世代稍微定義說是針對55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者因為這邊考慮到說我們現在有超過13%的話是失能者所以你失能者﹖年長到一個階段沒有錯這個其實大家都理解嘛\n就是說可以投入勞動市場的人他本身如果說是有身體疾病或是真的他無行為能力當然我們不能把他算進來啊是啊所以在整體推動上我們是支持說用方案計畫來推動因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書跟應用超高齡社會對策方案在服務以現在我們長照2.0要把它提升為長照3.0\n希望未來建構的,再搭配壯世代的部分建構是一個完整的高齡的政策方案拜託跟麻煩因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊有開過會但是幾個觀念一定要帶回去第一日本也有很多的長照他是以初老來服務中老有55歲65歲的人來服務75歲85歲的人\n那這就是一個引法共榮共存的概念第二延長這所謂的這個退休年齡以外怎麼樣能夠讓產業有更多的誘因能夠來禁用而不是認為是說他們是老人企業這個部分也要方面去思考還有第三我覺得最重要的是為什麼會提出壯世代就是因為過去用引法用中高齡者\n會讓大家會有一個比較負面的標籤所以說才會希望是說符合現行的民意現行的民情壯世代他們是壯世代對比是什麼就是輕壯世代嘛輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人那45歲以上以前叫我不知道處長你有沒有看過\n甚至有媒體報導上街頭遊行這是確實的他說上街頭遊行我看到了51歲的老翁他也站出來了你有沒有看過這種報導有記者連線的時候他說哇今天非常熱鬧這個遊行大家站出來了連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了來我們請教這個老翁的看法\n這以前人家這樣子連線你會覺得好像但是你現在聽我這樣講好像覺得哪裡怪怪的因為現在其實連71歲我都不一定覺得說如果說他體態保持良好身體健康肌力夠他都不一定可以稱為老翁對不對\n我們期待行政院有拿出真正正正符合民情的版本那我們也希望未來這一個法案在衛環委員會進入到主條的時候我們再討論而行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊好不好以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:23.542\n副部長辛苦到現在不過我想先請教一下因為今天早上聽說我們衛環委員會一開始的時候沒有辦法順利的進行詢答那最主要是有一些委員在詢問那甚至還有程序發言然後還特別提到說不清楚說到底壯世代什麼叫壯世代定義不明定義不清請教部長壯世代是什麼\n\n00:25.684 --> 00:29.947\n來部長你知不知道你們勞動部在今年2月有一個55plus壯世代就業促進措施\n\n00:44.926 --> 00:58.480\n你今年2月55plus壯世代就業促進措施啊你不知道你說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了欸那你難道不知道壯世代是什麼\n\n00:59.451 --> 01:17.573\n再來今年9月2號勞動部的臉書勞動部攜手壯世代迎向就業新時代和沛山部長親接雲嘉南銀髮人才中心資源然後為勞動部壯世代就業網路再添亮點\n\n01:19.482 --> 01:42.871\n欸9月2號你們臉書上宣傳壯世代就你現在說你不知道這個定義我不是說不知道是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議啦這我是支持的那當然這個法案裡面是說50歲以上可是我認為當然現在有很多委員認為55歲以上不清楚啦對有很多委員認為不清楚但是我們行政部門都很清楚啊甚至\n\n01:44.852 --> 01:59.492\n吳春城委員在質詢總質詢這個行政院院長卓龍泰的時候卓龍泰表示他自己就是吳春城口中的壯世代所以連院長都清楚他就是壯世代的時候為什麼我們現在還有定義不清定義不明的問題\n\n02:00.313 --> 02:18.321\n但是委員就是說我們講的定義不清是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義所以這個會變成各說各話比如說吳委員講的是55歲以上或者是我們行政好我們也見到這個概念可是我們覺得這一個東西它\n\n02:49.682 --> 03:18.277\n可以再討論再來第二個部分大家都已經講了其實我們對於人口的問題非常的擔憂因為我們真的是沒有人口紅利了嘛尤其是像明年三個月後65歲以上的人口就有20%全台灣五個人以上就有一位是65歲以上是不是這樣那現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會討論的就是少子化的現況對策交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工的問題\n\n03:19.398 --> 03:28.365\n所以今天光我們立法院7個委員會在開會的時候就有3個委員會其實核心概念價值都是一個缺工嘛\n\n03:29.335 --> 03:58.263\n我們為什麼會討論壯世代就是希望說延長退休的門檻讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續的付出投入我們討論少子化經濟發展也是認為是說我們現在缺工的問題很嚴重交通也是一樣沒有駕駛國道客運一般的公車大貨車沒有找到駕駛啊那這問題難道不嚴重嗎所以其實部長我覺得這就不能只是從勞動部的本位主義來看啊\n\n03:59.233 --> 04:10.462\n還有其實這一個法案我為什麼我也共同提案一起希望能夠有這個立法就是因為它其實是政策跟產業發展重點在於是產業發展\n\n04:14.451 --> 04:35.803\n年長者中高齡者他絕對不會是障礙他反而是一個助力以前我們的觀念會覺得說中高齡者可能他體力衰退了或說什麼樣所以說他可能對於產業不利但是現在的醫學進步以及科技發達反而中高齡者他的經驗如果能夠傳承的話對於產業是有有益的\n\n04:36.784 --> 05:05.467\n所以我現在也請教一下處長喔不好意思處長您上來我其實最主要是要請教因為我有看到行政院的報告是講是說院長已經有責成我們的政務委員陳時中已經開過三次會是不是那說10月31號會報行政院會會報什麼樣的資料給行政院會呃勞動部會提一個壯世代的社會參與的促進方案他會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會嗯\n\n05:06.880 --> 05:28.472\n所以他會提壯世代的社會參與對促進方案那如果說這樣的話又跟剛剛部長講部長不是講是說不能用壯世代這個名詞不要用壯世代這樣那就勞動部自己要提壯世代的就業服務方案公務員報告因為剛才部長也提到壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的可是我們會推動因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的是所以\n\n05:28.952 --> 05:51.141\n為了要推動這個方案的話我們把壯世代稍微定義說是針對55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者因為這邊考慮到說我們現在有超過13%的話是失能者所以你失能者﹖年長到一個階段沒有錯這個其實大家都理解嘛\n\n05:51.801 --> 06:15.754\n就是說可以投入勞動市場的人他本身如果說是有身體疾病或是真的他無行為能力當然我們不能把他算進來啊是啊所以在整體推動上我們是支持說用方案計畫來推動因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書跟應用超高齡社會對策方案在服務以現在我們長照2.0要把它提升為長照3.0\n\n06:17.515 --> 06:40.270\n希望未來建構的,再搭配壯世代的部分建構是一個完整的高齡的政策方案拜託跟麻煩因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊有開過會但是幾個觀念一定要帶回去第一日本也有很多的長照他是以初老來服務中老有55歲65歲的人來服務75歲85歲的人\n\n06:43.956 --> 07:08.409\n那這就是一個引法共榮共存的概念第二延長這所謂的這個退休年齡以外怎麼樣能夠讓產業有更多的誘因能夠來禁用而不是認為是說他們是老人企業這個部分也要方面去思考還有第三我覺得最重要的是為什麼會提出壯世代就是因為過去用引法用中高齡者\n\n07:09.470 --> 07:29.628\n會讓大家會有一個比較負面的標籤所以說才會希望是說符合現行的民意現行的民情壯世代他們是壯世代對比是什麼就是輕壯世代嘛輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人那45歲以上以前叫我不知道處長你有沒有看過\n\n07:31.127 --> 07:51.725\n甚至有媒體報導上街頭遊行這是確實的他說上街頭遊行我看到了51歲的老翁他也站出來了你有沒有看過這種報導有記者連線的時候他說哇今天非常熱鬧這個遊行大家站出來了連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了來我們請教這個老翁的看法\n\n07:52.925 --> 08:08.367\n這以前人家這樣子連線你會覺得好像但是你現在聽我這樣講好像覺得哪裡怪怪的因為現在其實連71歲我都不一定覺得說如果說他體態保持良好身體健康肌力夠他都不一定可以稱為老翁對不對\n\n08:10.287 --> 08:23.437\n我們期待行政院有拿出真正正正符合民情的版本那我們也希望未來這一個法案在衛環委員會進入到主條的時候我們再討論而行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊好不好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":23.542,"text":"副部長辛苦到現在不過我想先請教一下因為今天早上聽說我們衛環委員會一開始的時候沒有辦法順利的進行詢答那最主要是有一些委員在詢問那甚至還有程序發言然後還特別提到說不清楚說到底壯世代什麼叫壯世代定義不明定義不清請教部長壯世代是什麼"},{"start":25.684,"end":29.947,"text":"來部長你知不知道你們勞動部在今年2月有一個55plus壯世代就業促進措施"},{"start":44.926,"end":58.48,"text":"你今年2月55plus壯世代就業促進措施啊你不知道你說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了欸那你難道不知道壯世代是什麼"},{"start":59.451,"end":77.573,"text":"再來今年9月2號勞動部的臉書 勞動部攜手壯世代迎向就業新時代和沛山部長親接雲嘉南銀髮人才中心資源然後為勞動部壯世代就業網路再添亮點"},{"start":79.482,"end":102.871,"text":"欸9月2號你們臉書上宣傳壯世代就你現在說你不知道這個定義我不是說不知道是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議啦這我是支持的那當然這個法案裡面是說50歲以上可是我認為當然現在有很多委員認為55歲以上不清楚啦對有很多委員認為不清楚但是我們行政部門都很清楚啊甚至"},{"start":104.852,"end":119.492,"text":"吳春城委員在質詢總質詢這個行政院院長卓龍泰的時候卓龍泰表示他自己就是吳春城口中的壯世代所以連院長都清楚他就是壯世代的時候為什麼我們現在還有定義不清定義不明的問題"},{"start":120.313,"end":138.321,"text":"但是委員就是說我們講的定義不清是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義所以這個會變成各說各話比如說吳委員講的是55歲以上或者是我們行政好我們也見到這個概念可是我們覺得這一個東西它"},{"start":139.462,"end":169.462,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":169.682,"end":198.277,"text":"可以再討論再來第二個部分大家都已經講了其實我們對於人口的問題非常的擔憂因為我們真的是沒有人口紅利了嘛尤其是像明年三個月後65歲以上的人口就有20%全台灣五個人以上就有一位是65歲以上是不是這樣那現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會討論的就是少子化的現況對策交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工的問題"},{"start":199.398,"end":208.365,"text":"所以今天光我們立法院7個委員會在開會的時候就有3個委員會其實核心概念價值都是一個缺工嘛"},{"start":209.335,"end":238.263,"text":"我們為什麼會討論壯世代就是希望說延長退休的門檻讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續的付出投入我們討論少子化經濟發展也是認為是說我們現在缺工的問題很嚴重交通也是一樣沒有駕駛國道客運一般的公車大貨車沒有找到駕駛啊那這問題難道不嚴重嗎所以其實部長我覺得這就不能只是從勞動部的本位主義來看啊"},{"start":239.233,"end":250.462,"text":"還有其實這一個法案我為什麼我也共同提案一起希望能夠有這個立法就是因為它其實是政策跟產業發展重點在於是產業發展"},{"start":254.451,"end":275.803,"text":"年長者中高齡者他絕對不會是障礙他反而是一個助力以前我們的觀念會覺得說中高齡者可能他體力衰退了或說什麼樣所以說他可能對於產業不利但是現在的醫學進步以及科技發達反而中高齡者他的經驗如果能夠傳承的話對於產業是有有益的"},{"start":276.784,"end":305.467,"text":"所以我現在也請教一下處長喔不好意思處長您上來我其實最主要是要請教因為我有看到行政院的報告是講是說院長已經有責成我們的政務委員陳時中已經開過三次會是不是那說10月31號會報行政院會會報什麼樣的資料給行政院會呃勞動部會提一個壯世代的社會參與的促進方案他會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會嗯"},{"start":306.88,"end":328.472,"text":"所以他會提壯世代的社會參與對促進方案那如果說這樣的話又跟剛剛部長講部長不是講是說不能用壯世代這個名詞不要用壯世代這樣那就勞動部自己要提壯世代的就業服務方案公務員報告因為剛才部長也提到壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的可是我們會推動因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的是所以"},{"start":328.952,"end":351.141,"text":"為了要推動這個方案的話我們把壯世代稍微定義說是針對55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者因為這邊考慮到說我們現在有超過13%的話是失能者所以你失能者﹖年長到一個階段沒有錯這個其實大家都理解嘛"},{"start":351.801,"end":375.754,"text":"就是說可以投入勞動市場的人他本身如果說是有身體疾病或是真的他無行為能力當然我們不能把他算進來啊是啊所以在整體推動上我們是支持說用方案計畫來推動因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書跟應用超高齡社會對策方案在服務以現在我們長照2.0要把它提升為長照3.0"},{"start":377.515,"end":400.27,"text":"希望未來建構的,再搭配壯世代的部分建構是一個完整的高齡的政策方案拜託跟麻煩因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊有開過會但是幾個觀念一定要帶回去第一日本也有很多的長照他是以初老來服務中老有55歲65歲的人來服務75歲85歲的人"},{"start":403.956,"end":428.409,"text":"那這就是一個引法共榮共存的概念第二延長這所謂的這個退休年齡以外怎麼樣能夠讓產業有更多的誘因能夠來禁用而不是認為是說他們是老人企業這個部分也要方面去思考還有第三我覺得最重要的是為什麼會提出壯世代就是因為過去用引法用中高齡者"},{"start":429.47,"end":449.628,"text":"會讓大家會有一個比較負面的標籤所以說才會希望是說符合現行的民意現行的民情壯世代他們是壯世代對比是什麼就是輕壯世代嘛輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人那45歲以上以前叫我不知道處長你有沒有看過"},{"start":451.127,"end":471.725,"text":"甚至有媒體報導上街頭遊行這是確實的他說上街頭遊行我看到了51歲的老翁他也站出來了你有沒有看過這種報導有記者連線的時候他說哇今天非常熱鬧這個遊行大家站出來了連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了來我們請教這個老翁的看法"},{"start":472.925,"end":488.367,"text":"這以前人家這樣子連線你會覺得好像但是你現在聽我這樣講好像覺得哪裡怪怪的因為現在其實連71歲我都不一定覺得說如果說他體態保持良好身體健康肌力夠他都不一定可以稱為老翁對不對"},{"start":490.287,"end":503.437,"text":"我們期待行政院有拿出真正正正符合民情的版本那我們也希望未來這一個法案在衛環委員會進入到主條的時候我們再討論而行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊好不好以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1074,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時1分）主席謝謝。麻煩請勞動部何部長、行政院內政衛福勞動處蘇處長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：何部長，辛苦了，到現在。今天早上聽說衛環委員會一開始時是沒有辦法順利進行詢答的，最主要是有一些委員詢問，甚至還程序發言，特別提到不清楚到底什麼叫壯世代，認為其定義不明、定義不清。請教部長，壯世代是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！這就是比較……"],["洪委員孟楷：你也不清楚？"],["何部長佩珊：因為這是吳委員提出來的法案，吳委員會比較清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會吧！部長，你知不知道勞動部在今年2月有一個「55Plus壯世代就業促進措施」？今年2月就有「55Plus壯世代就業促進措施」，然後你不知道，說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念，但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了，難道你不知道壯世代是什麼？再來，今年9月2號勞動部的臉書：勞動部攜手壯世代，迎向就業新時代，何佩珊部長親揭牌雲嘉南區銀髮人才資源中心，勞動部壯世代就業網絡再添亮點。欸！9月2號你們在臉書上宣傳壯世代，結果你現在說不知道這個定義！"],["何部長佩珊：我不是說不知道，而是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議，這我是支持的，當然，這個法案裡面是說55歲以上……"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊！那定義……"],["何部長佩珊：但現在有很多委員認為定義不清楚啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：55歲以上……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：有很多委員認為定義不清楚，但行政部門都很清楚啊！甚至吳春城委員在總質詢質詢行政院院長卓榮泰的時候，卓榮泰自己都表示他就是吳春城口中的壯世代，連院長都清楚他就是壯世代，為什麼我們現在還有定義不清、定義不明的問題？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我們講的定義不清，是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義，所以這個會變成各說各話，譬如吳委員說55歲以上，或者我們行政院……好，我們也接受這個概念，可是我覺得這個名詞未必能涵蓋55歲以上的所有人，因為55歲以上的人口裡也有失能的人，他未必能成為壯世代，所以這裡面是很複雜的人口結構，沒有辦法用壯世代這樣一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有辦法用一個詞來含括，但是定義不清、定義不明可以更明確，但它絕對不是一個我們拒絕這個法案、這個專法或是這個討論進行的理由嘛！不是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有拒絕討論，只是說可以再討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：喔！可以再討論。再來，第二個部分，其實大家都已經講了，對於人口的問題我們非常擔憂，因為真的沒有人口紅利了，尤其在明年、3個月後，65歲以上的人口就有20%，表示全臺灣5個人中，就有一位是65歲以上，是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會，討論的是少子化的現況對策；交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工問題，今天光我們立法院7個委員會開會，就有3個委員會討論的核心概念、價值都是一個：缺工問題。我們為什麼會討論壯世代？就是希望延長退休門檻，讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續付出、投入；我們討論少子化、經濟發展，也是認為現在缺工問題很嚴重；交通問題也一樣，國道客運、一般公車、大貨車都找不到駕駛，這個問題難道不嚴重嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我覺得這個問題不能只從勞動部的本位主義來看，其實這個法案我也共同提案，希望能夠有這樣的立法，因為它攸關的是政策跟產業發展，而重點在於產業發展，年長者、中高齡者絕對不會是障礙，他反而會是一個助力。以前我們的觀念覺得中高齡者可能體力衰退或什麼，所以他可能對產業不利，但現在醫學進步、科技發達，中高齡者如果經驗能夠傳承的話，反而對產業是有益的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因此我現在也要請教一下處長，不好意思請處長上來，我最主要要請教處長的是，我看到行政院的報告提到院長已經責成政務委員陳時中，還開過3次會，是不是？"],["蘇處長永富：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：說10月31號會報行政院院會，請問，會報什麼樣的資料給行政院院會？"],["蘇處長永富：勞動部會提一個壯世代社會參與促進方案，會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以會提壯世代的社會參與？"],["蘇處長永富：對，促進方案。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果是這樣，又跟剛剛部長講……部長不是講說不能用壯世代這個名詞，不要用壯世代，結果勞動部自己要提壯世代就業服務方案？"],["蘇處長永富：跟委員報告，剛才部長也提到，壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的，可是我們要推動，因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的，所以為了要推動這個方案，我們把壯世代稍微定義是針對55歲以上健康、有工作能力，且為生產者跟消費者，因為這邊考慮到……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，非常好。"],["蘇處長永富：因為考慮到現在有超過13%的失能者，所以失能者……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有錯，年長到一個階段，這個其實大家都理解，就是說可以投入勞動市場的人，如果他本身身體有疾病或者真的無行為能力，當然不能把他算進來。"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["蘇處長永富：所以在整體推動上，我們是支持用方案計畫來推動，因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書，以及因應超高齡社會對策方案，再輔以現在長照2.0要提升為長照3.0，希望未來能搭配壯世代，建構一個完整的高齡政策。"],["洪委員孟楷：處長，拜託跟麻煩，因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊開過會，有幾個觀念請一定要帶回去，第一，日本也有很多長照是以初老來服務中老，由55歲、65歲的人來服務75歲、85歲的人，這就是一個銀髮共榮共存的概念。第二，延長退休年齡以外，如何讓產業有更多誘因來進用他們，而不是認為他們是老人企業，這個部分也要各方面去思考。"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有第三，我覺得最重要的是，為什麼會提出壯世代？就是因為過去用銀髮、中高齡者，會讓大家有比較負面的標籤，所以才希望能符合現行民意、現行民情，用「壯世代」這個名詞。壯世代的對比是什麼？就是輕壯世代，輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人。我不知道處長你有沒有看過，這是確實的事，甚至有媒體報導，上街頭遊行，看到51歲的老翁也站出來了！你有沒有看過這種報導？就是有記者連線時說：今天非常熱鬧，這個遊行大家都站出來了，連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了，我們現在請教這個老翁的看法……以前人家連線這樣說，我會覺得好像……但是你現在聽我這樣講，會不會覺得好像哪裡怪怪的？其實現在如果體態保持良好、身體健康、肌力夠，連71歲的人都不一定可以稱老翁，對不對？我們期待行政院拿出真真正正符合民情的版本，同時也希望未來這個法案在衛環委員會進入到逐條的時候再討論，行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長及處長。","接續請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}}