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00:01:17,673\n從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、出電加收跟樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分\n\n5\n00:01:17,833 --> 00:01:40,044\n我跟委員報告第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度\n\n6\n00:01:40,984 --> 00:02:08,973\n現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣一個做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟平台業者如何去談薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題\n\n7\n00:02:09,053 --> 00:02:35,628\n好次長謝謝對從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦我把它放進去啦那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛\n\n8\n00:02:36,508 --> 00:03:03,133\n交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛那今天外送員權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天要問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了因為就跟現在一樣了\n\n9\n00:03:03,473 --> 00:03:20,673\n委員包括就是說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是\n\n10\n00:03:22,195 --> 00:03:44,331\n到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分\n\n11\n00:03:44,531 --> 00:04:11,344\n那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會是去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是UberEats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用\n\n12\n00:04:12,944 --> 00:04:41,244\n是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助公會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候公會或者是外送員可以主張自己\n\n13\n00:04:42,004 --> 00:05:05,485\n所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少\n\n14\n00:05:06,446 --> 00:05:23,251\n業者餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個交通費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本\n\n15\n00:05:23,931 --> 00:05:47,609\n那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制他先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論\n\n16\n00:05:48,650 --> 00:06:16,901\n市長可以這樣理解錢多少錢夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要春天要不要30元這件事情還未定對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我今天先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問\n\n17\n00:06:18,322 --> 00:06:29,599\n運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障\n\n18\n00:06:30,049 --> 00:06:58,848\n好謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是\n\n19\n00:06:59,528 --> 00:07:26,425\n但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估\n\n20\n00:07:27,426 --> 00:07:50,564\n因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話\n\n21\n00:07:52,105 --> 00:08:21,096\n公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者得沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情角色上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵\n\n22\n00:08:22,196 --> 00:08:39,848\n這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就並用然後就沒事了我們對於結合三八二件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論\n\n23\n00:08:40,488 --> 00:09:04,625\n這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止因為現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經\n\n24\n00:09:05,766 --> 00:09:24,484\n按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔市佔率有超過八成以上對他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個\n\n25\n00:09:26,112 --> 00:09:50,917\n情況那會不會發生這個事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後台灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省總的結果因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成會那如果會產生這個結果預判就已經超過產生這個結果你們會同意嗎\n\n26\n00:09:52,216 --> 00:10:02,314\n我們還在看整個結核的因素中盤考量那結核他就八成啦不管你怎麼因素他就是超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮\n\n27\n00:10:03,692 --> 00:10:26,533\n一定會啊不是嗎還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是會看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢\n\n28\n00:10:27,634 --> 00:10:43,677\n然後把不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然你剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4452\t17062\t好 謝謝主席 那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長跟勞動部我們陳次長勞動部陳次長那稍後我會請這個公平交易委員會的李主委那主委稍等一下沒關係喔\n24252\t41600\t上週我想也有大家談到外送運價的問題那當時我們陳部長交通部陳部長說這個東西適宜到各單位包含說可能平台歸經濟部外送員的勞權歸勞動部那餐廳有衛福部那言下之意交通部原則上只負責定所謂的外送運價的準則出來那所以勞動部\n43121\t57674\t這些勞權的部分可能還是要來請教一下勞動部所以說今天我特別感謝我們召委特別安排這個專報讓大家都能夠過來一起來討論這個議題我們先看一下初步的這個外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看\n60536\t77673\t從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、出電加收跟樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分\n77833\t100044\t我跟委員報告第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度\n100984\t128973\t現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣一個做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟平台業者如何去談薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題\n129053\t155628\t好 次長謝謝對 從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦 我把它放進去啦那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛\n156508\t183133\t交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛那今天外送員權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天要問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了因為就跟現在一樣了\n183473\t200673\t委員包括就是說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是\n202195\t224331\t到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分\n224531\t251344\t那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會是去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是Uber Eats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用\n252944\t281244\t是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助公會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候公會或者是外送員可以主張自己\n282004\t305485\t所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少\n306446\t323251\t業者餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個交通費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本\n323931\t347609\t那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制他先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論\n348650\t376901\t市長可以這樣理解錢多少錢 夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要春天要不要30元這件事情還未定 對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我今天先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問\n378322\t389599\t運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障\n390049\t418848\t好 謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的 以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是\n419528\t446425\t但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估\n447426\t470564\t因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話\n472105\t501096\t公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者得沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情角色上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵\n502196\t519848\t這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就並用然後就沒事了我們對於結合三八二件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論\n520488\t544625\t這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止因為現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經\n545766\t564484\t按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔市佔率有超過八成以上對他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個\n566112\t590917\t情況那會不會發生這個事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後台灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省總的結果因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成會那如果會產生這個結果預判就已經超過產生這個結果你們會同意嗎\n592216\t602314\t我們還在看整個結核的因素中盤考量那結核他就八成啦不管你怎麼因素他就是超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮\n603692\t626533\t一定會啊不是嗎還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是會看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢\n627634\t643677\t然後把不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然你剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長跟勞動部我們陳次長勞動部陳次長那稍後我會請這個公平交易委員會的李主委那主委稍等一下沒關係喔\n上週我想也有大家談到外送運價的問題那當時我們陳部長交通部陳部長說這個東西適宜到各單位包含說可能平台歸經濟部外送員的勞權歸勞動部那餐廳有衛福部那言下之意交通部原則上只負責定所謂的外送運價的準則出來那所以勞動部\n這些勞權的部分可能還是要來請教一下勞動部所以說今天我特別感謝我們召委特別安排這個專報讓大家都能夠過來一起來討論這個議題我們先看一下初步的這個外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看\n從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、出電加收跟樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分\n我跟委員報告第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度\n現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣一個做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟平台業者如何去談薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題\n好 次長謝謝對 從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦 我把它放進去啦那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛\n交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛那今天外送員權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天要問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了因為就跟現在一樣了\n委員包括就是說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是\n到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分\n那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會是去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是Uber Eats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用\n是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助公會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候公會或者是外送員可以主張自己\n所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少\n業者餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個交通費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本\n那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制他先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論\n市長可以這樣理解錢多少錢 夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要春天要不要30元這件事情還未定 對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我今天先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問\n運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障\n好 謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的 以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是\n但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估\n因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話\n公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者得沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情角色上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵\n這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就並用然後就沒事了我們對於結合三八二件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論\n這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止因為現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經\n按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔市佔率有超過八成以上對他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個\n情況那會不會發生這個事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後台灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省總的結果因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成會那如果會產生這個結果預判就已經超過產生這個結果你們會同意嗎\n我們還在看整個結核的因素中盤考量那結核他就八成啦不管你怎麼因素他就是超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮\n一定會啊不是嗎還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是會看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢\n然後把不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然你剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.452 --> 00:17.062\n好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長跟勞動部我們陳次長勞動部陳次長那稍後我會請這個公平交易委員會的李主委那主委稍等一下沒關係喔\n\n00:24.252 --> 00:41.600\n上週我想也有大家談到外送運價的問題那當時我們陳部長交通部陳部長說這個東西適宜到各單位包含說可能平台歸經濟部外送員的勞權歸勞動部那餐廳有衛福部那言下之意交通部原則上只負責定所謂的外送運價的準則出來那所以勞動部\n\n00:43.121 --> 00:57.674\n這些勞權的部分可能還是要來請教一下勞動部所以說今天我特別感謝我們召委特別安排這個專報讓大家都能夠過來一起來討論這個議題我們先看一下初步的這個外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看\n\n01:00.536 --> 01:17.673\n從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、出電加收跟樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分\n\n01:17.833 --> 01:40.044\n我跟委員報告第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度\n\n01:40.984 --> 02:08.973\n現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣一個做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟平台業者如何去談薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題\n\n02:09.053 --> 02:35.628\n好次長謝謝對從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦我把它放進去啦那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛\n\n02:36.508 --> 03:03.133\n交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛那今天外送員權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天要問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了因為就跟現在一樣了\n\n03:03.473 --> 03:20.673\n委員包括就是說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是\n\n03:22.195 --> 03:44.331\n到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分\n\n03:44.531 --> 04:11.344\n那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會是去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是UberEats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用\n\n04:12.944 --> 04:41.244\n是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助公會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候公會或者是外送員可以主張自己\n\n04:42.004 --> 05:05.485\n所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少\n\n05:06.446 --> 05:23.251\n業者餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個交通費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本\n\n05:23.931 --> 05:47.609\n那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制他先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論\n\n05:48.650 --> 06:16.901\n市長可以這樣理解錢多少錢夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要春天要不要30元這件事情還未定對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我今天先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問\n\n06:18.322 --> 06:29.599\n運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障\n\n06:30.049 --> 06:58.848\n好謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是\n\n06:59.528 --> 07:26.425\n但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估\n\n07:27.426 --> 07:50.564\n因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話\n\n07:52.105 --> 08:21.096\n公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者得沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情角色上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵\n\n08:22.196 --> 08:39.848\n這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就並用然後就沒事了我們對於結合三八二件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論\n\n08:40.488 --> 09:04.625\n這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止因為現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經\n\n09:05.766 --> 09:24.484\n按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔市佔率有超過八成以上對他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個\n\n09:26.112 --> 09:50.917\n情況那會不會發生這個事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後台灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省總的結果因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成會那如果會產生這個結果預判就已經超過產生這個結果你們會同意嗎\n\n09:52.216 --> 10:02.314\n我們還在看整個結核的因素中盤考量那結核他就八成啦不管你怎麼因素他就是超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮\n\n10:03.692 --> 10:26.533\n一定會啊不是嗎還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是會看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢\n\n10:27.634 --> 10:43.677\n然後把不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然你剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.452,"end":17.062,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長跟勞動部我們陳次長勞動部陳次長那稍後我會請這個公平交易委員會的李主委那主委稍等一下沒關係喔"},{"start":24.252,"end":41.6,"text":"上週我想也有大家談到外送運價的問題那當時我們陳部長交通部陳部長說這個東西適宜到各單位包含說可能平台歸經濟部外送員的勞權歸勞動部那餐廳有衛福部那言下之意交通部原則上只負責定所謂的外送運價的準則出來那所以勞動部"},{"start":43.121,"end":57.674,"text":"這些勞權的部分可能還是要來請教一下勞動部所以說今天我特別感謝我們召委特別安排這個專報讓大家都能夠過來一起來討論這個議題我們先看一下初步的這個外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看"},{"start":60.536,"end":77.673,"text":"從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、出電加收跟樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分"},{"start":77.833,"end":100.044,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度"},{"start":100.984,"end":128.973,"text":"現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣一個做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟平台業者如何去談薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題"},{"start":129.053,"end":155.628,"text":"好 次長謝謝對 從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦 我把它放進去啦那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛"},{"start":156.508,"end":183.133,"text":"交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛那今天外送員權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天要問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了因為就跟現在一樣了"},{"start":183.473,"end":200.673,"text":"委員包括就是說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是"},{"start":202.195,"end":224.331,"text":"到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分"},{"start":224.531,"end":251.344,"text":"那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會是去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是Uber Eats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用"},{"start":252.944,"end":281.244,"text":"是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助公會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候公會或者是外送員可以主張自己"},{"start":282.004,"end":305.485,"text":"所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少"},{"start":306.446,"end":323.251,"text":"業者餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個交通費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本"},{"start":323.931,"end":347.609,"text":"那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制他先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論"},{"start":348.65,"end":376.901,"text":"市長可以這樣理解錢多少錢 夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要春天要不要30元這件事情還未定 對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我今天先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問"},{"start":378.322,"end":389.599,"text":"運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障"},{"start":390.049,"end":418.848,"text":"好 謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的 以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是"},{"start":419.528,"end":446.425,"text":"但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估"},{"start":447.426,"end":470.564,"text":"因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話"},{"start":472.105,"end":501.096,"text":"公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者得沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情角色上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵"},{"start":502.196,"end":519.848,"text":"這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就並用然後就沒事了我們對於結合三八二件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論"},{"start":520.488,"end":544.625,"text":"這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止因為現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經"},{"start":545.766,"end":564.484,"text":"按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔市佔率有超過八成以上對他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個"},{"start":566.112,"end":590.917,"text":"情況那會不會發生這個事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後台灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省總的結果因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成會那如果會產生這個結果預判就已經超過產生這個結果你們會同意嗎"},{"start":592.216,"end":602.314,"text":"我們還在看整個結核的因素中盤考量那結核他就八成啦不管你怎麼因素他就是超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮"},{"start":603.692,"end":626.533,"text":"一定會啊不是嗎還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是會看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢"},{"start":627.634,"end":643.677,"text":"然後把不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然你剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":902,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（13時2分）謝謝主席。我先請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["黃委員健豪：跟勞動部陳次長。"],["主席：勞動部陳次長。"],["黃委員健豪：稍後我會請公平交易委員會的李主委。主委稍等一下，沒關係。"],["主席：好，李主委等一下。先在那邊等一下。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長、次長。上週大家也談到外送運價的問題，當時交通部陳部長說，這個東西涉及到各單位，包含可能平臺歸經濟部，外送員的勞權歸勞動部，餐廳有衛福部。言下之意，交通部原則上只負責訂所謂的外送運價準則，所以有關勞權的部分，可能還是要來請教一下勞動部。今天我特別感謝召委特別安排這個專報，讓大家都能夠一起來討論這個議題。","我們先看一下外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價，我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看，從基本運費、夜間加收、延遲5分鐘加收、春節加收、樓層費這幾個項目來講，哪一個應該是屬於要保障外送員權益的部分？既然今天要透明，我也支持透明，但是未來在規劃的時候，哪些應該是屬於外送員的部分？"],["陳次長明仁：第一個，剛才陳部長已經特別說明，交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分；至於費用的部分，將來還是要各方利害關係人共同討論。但是就勞動部而言，基本的運費當然會是最重要的關鍵。就勞動部的角度，現在問題的爭議在於報酬不夠透明，透過演算法，外界不知道它整個財務的結構。如果我們支持交通部這樣作法之後，就會知道運費基本上的狀況，不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員，都會知道基本的結構，就有利於外送員未來跟平臺業者如何談薪資保障這樣重要的議題。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，謝謝。對，從頭到尾都在講透明的問題，但透明的問題就是今天我已經把基本運費訂出了，假設以這個草案為例，因為到時候通過的版本一定也會分所謂的細項。我們今天以草案為例，如果草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費、放入夜間加收、放入春節加收、樓層費等等費用，我把它放進去就透明。我的問題是請教，以勞動部立場，如果要保障外送員，因為你們的立場是保障外送員，交通部則是要訂所謂的上位指導原則，說以後這個行業要把這些條件列出來，我猜測它的目的當然一開始可能也是希望能夠保障外送員的權益，外送員權益的問題當然是歸勞動部。我現在要問的是，這整個運算公式裡面，哪一個部分是真正可以保護到外送員？不能最後又回到平臺再去拆帳，這樣的話，就不用訂細項，那就跟現在一樣了！"],["陳次長明仁：就外送員、勞工朋友們，基本上接了單一定有里程的問題、花了多少時間去跑這個單，到底是在尖峰、離峰或者是在重要節日，甚至於夜間，或者是他到的是高樓、公寓或者在平面，這些都會涉及到他的報酬。現在就是如果我們沒有做過這樣透明化的機制，就不知道平臺業者對於商家、消費者到底收了多少錢，所以就完全不知道外送員在這裡面的合理報酬、應該得到的分潤會是多少。"],["黃委員健豪：合理的報酬要怎麼算？合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到的，比如所謂夜間加收，誰會是去執行夜間跑外送業務的人？就是那個人嘛！"],["陳次長明仁：對。"],["黃委員健豪：不會是Uber Eats的老闆，不會是foodpanda的老闆，是這個人去跑嘛！我的意思是，比如夜間加收或我在這邊等，我送到這個人家樓下，我等了5分鐘的加收費用，甚至春節我去跑外送的費用，是屬於誰的？"],["陳次長明仁：所以……"],["黃委員健豪：是屬於平臺的呢？還是到時候在談的時候，勞動部會幫忙？因為我講真的……"],["陳次長明仁：我們一定會協助工會去處理這個議題。現在的狀況就是包括運費的結構、加成的項目，這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分，他才會知道未來運費透明化，各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候，工會或者是外送員可以主張自己的權益，包括基本的運費多少錢是合理，裡面有多少的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：次長，對不起！運費裡面多少錢給外送員，我覺得這部分當然需要再去談判。我指的是，我們在理想上要把所謂定價訂出來，運費的內容、平臺多少、外送多少、餐廳拿多少，那是他們之間的商業機制，但今天要用法律明定出夜間加收、延遲加收、春節加收跟樓層費，這是又另外訂出來的加收費用。今天我作為立法委員，假設我們同意這個版本，這個加收費用的錢是要給平臺呢？還是誰？這些東西在哪裡？如果要給平臺，那跟現在就一樣了。"],["陳次長明仁：當然是給外送員，因為執行的是外送員。"],["黃委員健豪：所以是給外送員。我的意思是，到時候勞動部會去主張嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：只是目前這樣的機制先處理的是透明化，至於相關的額度、內容，是各方利害關係人後續要討論的。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，可不可以這樣理解？多少錢？夜間要不要20元，或是延遲要不要5元，或是春節要不要30元？這件事情還未定，對不對？"],["陳次長明仁：因為主要貢獻者還是外送員。"],["黃委員健豪：這個項目如果真的放上去，這個東西是給外送員的嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：主要貢獻者是外送員，理當應該要……"],["黃委員健豪：是吧？到時候你們會不會堅持這個立場？我的意思是這樣。"],["陳次長明仁：我們當然會……"],["黃委員健豪：因為上禮拜問不到，上禮拜部長的意思是，先把這個項目都訂出來，到底錢怎麼分，大家再談。今天既然勞動部來了，我就要問。我就先不談運費，光是加收這些執行業務的費用，你是不是會保障勞工的部分？"],["陳次長明仁：我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這部分權益的保障。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝次長。接下來，大家現在也很關心，我們今天特別請公平會來，當然就是為了合併的問題。如果按照現在已經有競爭機制的時候，以Uber來講，我想網路上也看到非常多的案例，關於有會員跟沒會員的價差，有會員的人比沒會員的還貴，當然這是他們的商業內容、商業機制，他們要怎麼跑，我沒有什麼特別意見。因為你願意加入會員，要付多一點錢，那是每個人的自由。但問題是，如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場，公平會的角色是什麼？你們要怎麼處理這件事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個結合之後，即第一大跟第二大結合，將來整個市場結構改變一定很大，所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候，包括剛才委員關切外送員的權益、店家的權益、餐廳的權益，在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細、很審慎去評估。"],["黃委員健豪：有關各國外送平臺，應該說很多國家都有非常多外送平臺，但唯獨臺灣目前的確有寡占市場的狀況，即便是亞洲鄰近的各國都有非常多的外送平台存在。所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易，如果真的要併購的話，公平會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情，還是就放任？因為我們看到現在的確他們寧願花很多錢去做廣告，但是對於外送員的權益到現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障，所以如果真的以後併購了，全臺灣只剩一間外送平台業者的時候，消費者等於沒有選擇啦，甚至連外送員都沒得選擇，連商店都沒得選擇，我只能透過這家來外送，就沒有競爭優勢了，所以我不知道公平會在這件事情的角色上要怎麼去處理？有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵其他的平臺業者也能夠加入競爭市場，這可能也是經濟部業務啦，還是你就是讓這兩家併購，然後就沒事了？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於結合的申報案件都有一個處理原則，有關結合之後，限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益，我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個最適切的評估。"],["黃委員健豪：這案子也一段時間了，目前為止你們的檢討有初步的結果了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為文件現在還沒有完全齊備，所以我們等文件齊備以後，其實目前已經在評估，我們在臺北、臺中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會，我們非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響，這個都會在我們的評估當中做為考量。"],["黃委員健豪：我們要提醒公平會，如果現在已經按照剛剛你們的解釋，我剛有聽一下，你說兩大家算是所謂的壟斷了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩家整個加起來……"],["黃委員健豪：叫獨占？"],["李主任委員鎂：市占率有超過八成以上。"],["黃委員健豪：對，他們現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果結合的話，是有獨占的情況。"],["黃委員健豪：會不會發生這件事情？我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生臺灣到最後只剩一間平台業者？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果沒有核准這個結合，就不會有剛才講的一家事業超過市占率八成的問題，所以這還是要看我們最後審酌的結果。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，你也提到，就結果論來講，如果兩家合併就一定超過八成，如果預判就已經會產生這個結果，你們會同意嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們還是要看整個結合的因素，通盤考量。"],["黃委員健豪：它結合就是八成，不管是什麼因素，就是超過八成，除非有第三家、第四家出現嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：要看看它有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮。"],["黃委員健豪：一定會啊，不是嗎？還是你要用法律，就是拜託交通部、經濟部或是勞動部去訂定相關的法令條件規定它不能調整價格？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們還是會看整個所有的申報資料及各界的意見全盤去審酌。"],["黃委員健豪：好啦，時間也到了，但是我要提醒公平會，也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法令，既然訂出來了，那我們就希望不能讓這些外商只為了賺錢，就把不管是勞動權益也好，或是一般商店的權益也好、消費者權益也好，全部犧牲掉。第一個，拜託交通部跟公平會，在最後這段時間要把這個守住，不然你剛剛提到超過八成，到底要怎麼競爭？沒有人可以競爭啦，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","先作以下宣告：待會兒發言到何欣純委員截止，休息30分鐘，補充能源，怕後面的委員餓到，因為今天要問的委員非常多啦，餓到兩點多的話，有時候亂答，對大家不利啦，大概是這樣。","好，接下來有請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}}