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{\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 247.927, \"end\": 247.947, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"諒\"}]}, {\"start\": 248.968, \"end\": 269.83, \"text\": \"那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 248.968, \"end\": 249.148, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 249.148, \"end\": 249.248, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 249.248, \"end\": 249.308, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 249.308, \"end\": 249.609, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 249.609, \"end\": 249.749, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 249.749, \"end\": 249.909, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 249.909, \"end\": 250.67, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"堅\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 250.67, \"end\": 250.83, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 250.83, \"end\": 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263.904, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 263.904, \"end\": 264.084, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 264.084, \"end\": 264.204, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 264.204, \"end\": 264.384, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 264.384, \"end\": 264.965, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 264.965, \"end\": 265.065, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 265.065, \"end\": 265.145, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 265.145, \"end\": 265.265, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 265.265, \"end\": 265.626, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 265.626, \"end\": 265.826, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 265.826, \"end\": 266.326, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 266.326, \"end\": 266.467, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 266.467, \"end\": 266.567, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"交\", 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273.273, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 273.273, \"end\": 273.574, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 273.574, \"end\": 273.734, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 273.734, \"end\": 274.475, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 274.475, \"end\": 274.655, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 274.655, \"end\": 274.735, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 274.735, \"end\": 274.795, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 274.795, \"end\": 275.055, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 275.055, \"end\": 275.175, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 275.175, \"end\": 275.475, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 275.475, \"end\": 275.636, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 275.636, \"end\": 275.916, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 275.916, \"end\": 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\"送\", \"start\": 284.484, \"end\": 284.864, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 284.864, \"end\": 285.185, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"店\", \"start\": 285.185, \"end\": 285.445, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 285.445, \"end\": 285.705, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 285.705, \"end\": 285.945, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 285.945, \"end\": 286.005, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 286.005, \"end\": 286.065, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 286.065, \"end\": 286.206, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 286.206, \"end\": 286.406, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 286.406, \"end\": 286.566, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 286.566, \"end\": 286.726, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 286.726, \"end\": 287.687, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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\"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,735 --> 00:00:25,578\n好謝謝主席有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會李鎂主委、主任委員還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併\n\n2\n00:00:27,465 --> 00:00:42,923\n我個人阿對您個人不代表交通部我個人會覺得如果剛剛聽到這麼多的論述嘛兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇啦如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見\n\n3\n00:00:43,544 --> 00:01:07,446\n好謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見\n\n4\n00:01:08,827 --> 00:01:27,604\n這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望能夠聽進去這個部分跟您分享好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果\n\n5\n00:01:28,064 --> 00:01:42,586\n那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到\n\n6\n00:01:43,787 --> 00:02:02,796\n消息會的17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會你的利益是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:03,999 --> 00:02:18,575\n是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情\n\n8\n00:02:19,176 --> 00:02:33,917\n你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲\n\n9\n00:02:34,938 --> 00:02:55,414\n不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到\n\n10\n00:02:56,295 --> 00:03:13,840\n小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的萊克數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利潤嗎不會因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利潤三成的業績可能0.5的利潤\n\n11\n00:03:20,021 --> 00:03:45,433\n這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送喔如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊、30塊\n\n12\n00:03:47,074 --> 00:04:07,947\n所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒\n\n13\n00:04:08,968 --> 00:04:29,830\n那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎\n\n14\n00:04:30,831 --> 00:04:48,307\n所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台\n\n15\n00:04:48,848 --> 00:04:50,089\n其中我們對於這個不管是公車、平艦\n\n16\n00:05:12,318 --> 00:05:34,016\n或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們在一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實\n\n17\n00:05:34,997 --> 00:06:04,237\n那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實它真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?\n\n18\n00:06:05,898 --> 00:06:27,078\n這個應該現在都有放沒有問題這個都放入評鑑就是我們大概就是說稽查還有如果說它有產生違規的話在評鑑上面的話其實都是有很大部分的群組所以原本就有放裡面對所以我剛剛講出問題點了原本就有放但是我剛剛看到10台車只有5台車停讓10台車只有2台車只有只差確認所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嘛\n\n19\n00:06:27,819 --> 00:06:52,125\n所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是沒有問題好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1735\t25578\t好 謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會李鎂主委、主任委員還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好 首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併\n27465\t42923\t我個人阿對 您個人不代表交通部我個人會覺得如果剛剛聽到這麼多的論述嘛兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇啦如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見\n43544\t67446\t好 謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見\n68827\t87604\t這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望能夠聽進去這個部分跟您分享好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果\n88064\t102586\t那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到\n103787\t122796\t消息會的17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會你的利益是什麼\n123999\t138575\t是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情\n139176\t153917\t你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲\n154938\t175414\t不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到\n176295\t193840\t小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的萊克數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利潤嗎不會 因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利潤三成的業績可能0.5的利潤\n200021\t225433\t這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送喔如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊、30塊\n227074\t247947\t所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒\n248968\t269830\t那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎\n270831\t288307\t所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台\n288848\t290089\t其中我們對於這個不管是公車、平艦\n312318\t334016\t或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們在一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實\n334997\t364237\t那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實它真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?\n365898\t387078\t這個應該現在都有放沒有問題這個都放入評鑑就是我們大概就是說稽查還有如果說它有產生違規的話在評鑑上面的話其實都是有很大部分的群組所以原本就有放裡面對所以我剛剛講出問題點了原本就有放但是我剛剛看到10台車只有5台車停讓10台車只有2台車只有只差確認所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嘛\n387819\t412125\t所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好 落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是 沒有問題好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會李鎂主委、主任委員還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好 首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併\n我個人阿對 您個人不代表交通部我個人會覺得如果剛剛聽到這麼多的論述嘛兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇啦如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見\n好 謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見\n這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望能夠聽進去這個部分跟您分享好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果\n那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到\n消息會的17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會你的利益是什麼\n是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情\n你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲\n不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到\n小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的萊克數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利潤嗎不會 因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利潤三成的業績可能0.5的利潤\n這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送喔如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊、30塊\n所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒\n那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎\n所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台\n其中我們對於這個不管是公車、平艦\n或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們在一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實\n那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實它真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?\n這個應該現在都有放沒有問題這個都放入評鑑就是我們大概就是說稽查還有如果說它有產生違規的話在評鑑上面的話其實都是有很大部分的群組所以原本就有放裡面對所以我剛剛講出問題點了原本就有放但是我剛剛看到10台車只有5台車停讓10台車只有2台車只有只差確認所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嘛\n所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好 落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是 沒有問題好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.735 --> 00:25.578\n好謝謝主席有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會李鎂主委、主任委員還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併\n\n00:27.465 --> 00:42.923\n我個人阿對您個人不代表交通部我個人會覺得如果剛剛聽到這麼多的論述嘛兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇啦如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見\n\n00:43.544 --> 01:07.446\n好謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見\n\n01:08.827 --> 01:27.604\n這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望能夠聽進去這個部分跟您分享好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果\n\n01:28.064 --> 01:42.586\n那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到\n\n01:43.787 --> 02:02.796\n消息會的17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會你的利益是什麼\n\n02:03.999 --> 02:18.575\n是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情\n\n02:19.176 --> 02:33.917\n你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲\n\n02:34.938 --> 02:55.414\n不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到\n\n02:56.295 --> 03:13.840\n小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的萊克數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利潤嗎不會因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利潤三成的業績可能0.5的利潤\n\n03:20.021 --> 03:45.433\n這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送喔如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊、30塊\n\n03:47.074 --> 04:07.947\n所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒\n\n04:08.968 --> 04:29.830\n那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎\n\n04:30.831 --> 04:48.307\n所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台\n\n04:48.848 --> 04:50.089\n其中我們對於這個不管是公車、平艦\n\n05:12.318 --> 05:34.016\n或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們在一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實\n\n05:34.997 --> 06:04.237\n那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實它真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?\n\n06:05.898 --> 06:27.078\n這個應該現在都有放沒有問題這個都放入評鑑就是我們大概就是說稽查還有如果說它有產生違規的話在評鑑上面的話其實都是有很大部分的群組所以原本就有放裡面對所以我剛剛講出問題點了原本就有放但是我剛剛看到10台車只有5台車停讓10台車只有2台車只有只差確認所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嘛\n\n06:27.819 --> 06:52.125\n所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是沒有問題好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.735,"end":25.578,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會李鎂主委、主任委員還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好 首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併"},{"start":27.465,"end":42.923,"text":"我個人阿對 您個人不代表交通部我個人會覺得如果剛剛聽到這麼多的論述嘛兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇啦如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見"},{"start":43.544,"end":67.446,"text":"好 謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見"},{"start":68.827,"end":87.604,"text":"這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望能夠聽進去這個部分跟您分享好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果"},{"start":88.064,"end":102.586,"text":"那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到"},{"start":103.787,"end":122.796,"text":"消息會的17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會你的利益是什麼"},{"start":123.999,"end":138.575,"text":"是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情"},{"start":139.176,"end":153.917,"text":"你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲"},{"start":154.938,"end":175.414,"text":"不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到"},{"start":176.295,"end":193.84,"text":"小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的萊克數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利潤嗎不會 因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利潤三成的業績可能0.5的利潤"},{"start":200.021,"end":225.433,"text":"這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送喔如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊、30塊"},{"start":227.074,"end":247.947,"text":"所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒"},{"start":248.968,"end":269.83,"text":"那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎"},{"start":270.831,"end":288.307,"text":"所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台"},{"start":288.848,"end":290.089,"text":"其中我們對於這個不管是公車、平艦"},{"start":312.318,"end":334.016,"text":"或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們在一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實"},{"start":334.997,"end":364.237,"text":"那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實它真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?"},{"start":365.898,"end":387.078,"text":"這個應該現在都有放沒有問題這個都放入評鑑就是我們大概就是說稽查還有如果說它有產生違規的話在評鑑上面的話其實都是有很大部分的群組所以原本就有放裡面對所以我剛剛講出問題點了原本就有放但是我剛剛看到10台車只有5台車停讓10台車只有2台車只有只差確認所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嘛"},{"start":387.819,"end":412.125,"text":"所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好 落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是 沒有問題好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（13時13分）好，謝謝主席，有請陳部長、公平交易委員會李主任委員，還有行政院消費者保護處副處長。","好，首先，我要先請問陳世凱學長個人一個問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您個人支不支持所謂兩大交易平台合併、併購？"],["陳部長世凱：我個人啊？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，您個人，不代表交通部喔！剛剛聽到這麼多的論述。"],["陳部長世凱：我個人會覺得，如果兩個平台合併之後，我沒有其他的選擇，我當然會希望多一些選擇。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對、對。"],["陳部長世凱：如果合併成一個平台，我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話，選擇性少一點，我會比較不樂見。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。公平會主委，我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長、問過勞動部部長，也問過陳世凱先生，他們三個都已經有回應不太支持，希望有多元的選擇，我希望你能夠再一次看到，各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了，你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見，這麼多的長官都已經表達他們的意見，也希望你能夠聽進去，這部分跟你分享。","再來，我想回到交通部，之前有預告修正汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定，明確訂定機車承運外送平台運送業務的運價，大家以為努力有了結果，剛剛很多的委員也對於這一次修正都非常關心，因為要開這個草案說明會，但消基會沒有去現場，臨時喊卡。部長，消基會拒絕開會，我相信今天很多的委員都有問到，消基會17日的新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促，針對外送運價準則影響消費者甚鉅，內容有諸多不合理，已強烈反對。","我先請問一下部長，你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣子的說明會，你的立意是什麼？是良善的嗎？你的立意是為了什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：當然，我們希望它的運費能夠透明化。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是為了讓消費者漲價嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價，我只是在處理透明化的部分，不會讓它漲價……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對嘛！所以我們支持你做對的事情，你希望把透明化能夠呈現出來，讓所有這些跑外送的外送員能夠獲得合理報酬，因為有合理運價，我們也代表許多外送員發聲，不是所有外送員都要一昧的漲價、漲價、再漲價，讓他們的薪水高、高、高，因為他們也知道，只是不斷的漲漲漲，最後會嚇跑消費者。再來，我要傳達另外一個聲音，我也代表著整個小吃店家這些聲音，我本身家裡是做小吃的，剛剛有許多委員有提到小吃或者是店家加入外送平台，它可能增加三成的來客數，但是你覺得會增加三成的利潤嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不會，據我所了解，平台業者也抽了蠻多的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：抽得很多啊！我可以跟你講三成的業績所帶來的可能只有0.5的利潤，所以我們要看到真正的問題，當然交通部願意把合理運價透明化，我們可以看出外送平台到底有沒有在後面伸出一雙黑手，用黑箱來影響外送員，一手拿外送員的錢，一手拿著店家的錢，一手還有可能拿所謂消費者的錢。因為我們看到，比如我們要訂外送，如果想要再加快速度就要再加20塊、30塊，所以今天不管是樓層費等，我覺得這些費用是合理的，使用者付費。像我們在立法院的外送也都是叫到中興一樓，沒有再送上去、也沒有再送地下一樓，你要就是去一樓拿，未來如果有所謂的樓層費，使用者付費，你增加了10塊、20塊，可以多一個樓層，我想消費者也可以體諒。所以在這個部分上，請你堅持原本的立意良善，希望將這個黑箱、不透明的部分來做揭露，我們大家一起來努力。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們會努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我也要跟消基會、還有消保處講，消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理，所以我想問消保處、公平交易委員會也認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎？理由到底是什麼？今天你們都有來，是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場？你們為了消費者，我能夠體諒，當然我們也要保障消費者的權益，但是外送呢？店家呢？所以我覺得真正的問題還是在於平台不夠透明、平台太過黑箱，我們應該一起來努力，這個部分我希望帶到今天的論述，讓大家能夠聽到，可以嗎？我們一起為整個外送的產業鏈來努力，部長可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們正在努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：另外，我想問一下，部長，因為公車不小心發生事故的案件層出不窮。其中我們對於不管是公車評鑑或者是今天討論到的遊覽車評鑑制度檢討，你知不知道之前2019年公車在轉彎的時候開始會做一個動作，我們在一直在提倡，您知道什麼動作嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：停、等跟指差確認。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，非常棒，我們現在不是禮讓行人，現在是停讓行人，我們更希望指差確認能夠更紮實，現在就我所了解，我們看到各個路口公車在行駛時，其實他真的有做到停讓嗎？沒有，10臺車可能只有5臺車；真的有做到指差確認嗎？10臺車可能只有1臺車、2臺車。所以未來的評鑑制度能不能將停讓行人跟指差確認更加落實放入到評鑑機制，甚至要更紮實的來做教育訓練？這個部分，交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為？"],["陳部長世凱：這個應該現在都有放，沒有問題，這個都放入評鑑……"],["陳局長文瑞：我們大概就是用稽查，還有如果他有產生違規的話，在評鑑上面其實都是有很大……"],["陳部長世凱：所以是原本就有放裡面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以我剛剛講出問題點，原本就有放，但是我看到10臺車只有5臺車停讓，10臺車只有2臺車做指差確認，所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題，才會發生最近都還是有所謂的公車傷人事件，所以你們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討？你們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強？這部分交通部可以允諾我們，應該要往這個方向來執行嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，這個部分我們當然要加強。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望看到的是更具體的，把這些事情做給我們看，而不是告訴我們評鑑制度你們會納入。"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在設法在落實當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好不好？落實加強力道，甚至於不惜要開罰，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，接下來有請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}}