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185.501, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 186.408, \"end\": 207.696, \"text\": \"我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 186.408, \"end\": 186.528, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 186.528, \"end\": 186.728, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 186.728, \"end\": 186.888, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 186.888, \"end\": 187.088, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 187.088, \"end\": 187.468, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 187.468, \"end\": 188.429, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 188.429, \"end\": 188.569, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 188.569, \"end\": 189.009, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 189.009, \"end\": 189.149, \"score\": 0.998}, 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\"text\": \"那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 258.715, \"end\": 258.955, \"score\": 0.631}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 258.955, \"end\": 259.156, \"score\": 0.492}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 259.156, \"end\": 259.416, \"score\": 0.62}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 259.416, \"end\": 259.576, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 259.576, \"end\": 259.796, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 259.796, \"end\": 259.936, \"score\": 0.596}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 259.936, \"end\": 260.257, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 260.257, \"end\": 260.437, \"score\": 0.691}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 260.437, \"end\": 260.837, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 260.837, \"end\": 261.238, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 261.238, \"end\": 261.518, \"score\": 0.83}, 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\"甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 290.578, \"end\": 290.718, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 290.718, \"end\": 290.818, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 290.818, \"end\": 291.018, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 291.018, \"end\": 291.158, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 291.158, \"end\": 291.319, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 291.319, \"end\": 291.519, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 291.519, \"end\": 291.619, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 291.619, \"end\": 291.699, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 291.699, \"end\": 291.899, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"操\", \"start\": 291.899, \"end\": 292.119, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"控\", \"start\": 292.119, \"end\": 292.339, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": 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0.992}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,909 --> 00:00:14,070\n好謝謝主席我們請公平會李主委好李主委李主委好好打拜託\n\n2\n00:00:18,383 --> 00:00:32,090\n好謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況\n\n3\n00:00:36,312 --> 00:01:05,394\n那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件10月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊\n\n4\n00:01:06,595 --> 00:01:26,604\n給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟牢固關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性\n\n5\n00:01:27,524 --> 00:01:49,765\n這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你\n\n6\n00:01:50,606 --> 00:02:15,083\n可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到\n\n7\n00:02:15,723 --> 00:02:37,100\n大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上\n\n8\n00:02:38,661 --> 00:03:05,501\n然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎\n\n9\n00:03:06,408 --> 00:03:27,696\n我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件\n\n10\n00:03:28,636 --> 00:03:49,076\n那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了\n\n11\n00:03:51,778 --> 00:04:16,914\n還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題\n\n12\n00:04:18,715 --> 00:04:24,220\n那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們\n\n13\n00:04:26,052 --> 00:04:50,238\n把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放\n\n14\n00:04:50,578 --> 00:05:17,279\n甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了\n\n15\n00:05:17,859 --> 00:05:45,810\n那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷\n\n16\n00:05:46,690 --> 00:05:56,845\n好謝謝主委那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好謝謝主委謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4909\t14070\t好 謝謝主席 我們請公平會李主委好 李主委李主委好好打 拜託\n18383\t32090\t好謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況\n36312\t65394\t那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件10月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊\n66595\t86604\t給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟牢固關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性\n87524\t109765\t這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你\n110606\t135083\t可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到\n135723\t157100\t大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上\n158661\t185501\t然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎\n186408\t207696\t我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件\n208636\t229076\t那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了\n231778\t256914\t還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題\n258715\t264220\t那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們\n266052\t290238\t把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放\n290578\t317279\t甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了\n317859\t345810\t那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷\n346690\t356845\t好 謝謝主委 那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請公平會李主委好 李主委李主委好好打 拜託\n好謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況\n那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件10月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊\n給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟牢固關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性\n這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你\n可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到\n大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上\n然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎\n我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件\n那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了\n還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題\n那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們\n把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放\n甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了\n那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷\n好 謝謝主委 那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.909 --> 00:14.070\n好謝謝主席我們請公平會李主委好李主委李主委好好打拜託\n\n00:18.383 --> 00:32.090\n好謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況\n\n00:36.312 --> 01:05.394\n那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件10月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊\n\n01:06.595 --> 01:26.604\n給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟牢固關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性\n\n01:27.524 --> 01:49.765\n這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你\n\n01:50.606 --> 02:15.083\n可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到\n\n02:15.723 --> 02:37.100\n大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上\n\n02:38.661 --> 03:05.501\n然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎\n\n03:06.408 --> 03:27.696\n我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件\n\n03:28.636 --> 03:49.076\n那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了\n\n03:51.778 --> 04:16.914\n還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題\n\n04:18.715 --> 04:24.220\n那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們\n\n04:26.052 --> 04:50.238\n把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放\n\n04:50.578 --> 05:17.279\n甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了\n\n05:17.859 --> 05:45.810\n那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷\n\n05:46.690 --> 05:56.845\n好謝謝主委那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好謝謝主委謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.909,"end":14.07,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請公平會李主委好 李主委李主委好好打 拜託"},{"start":18.383,"end":32.09,"text":"好謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況"},{"start":36.312,"end":65.394,"text":"那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件10月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊"},{"start":66.595,"end":86.604,"text":"給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟牢固關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性"},{"start":87.524,"end":109.765,"text":"這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你"},{"start":110.606,"end":135.083,"text":"可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到"},{"start":135.723,"end":157.1,"text":"大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上"},{"start":158.661,"end":185.501,"text":"然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎"},{"start":186.408,"end":207.696,"text":"我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件"},{"start":208.636,"end":229.076,"text":"那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了"},{"start":231.778,"end":256.914,"text":"還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題"},{"start":258.715,"end":264.22,"text":"那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們"},{"start":266.052,"end":290.238,"text":"把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放"},{"start":290.578,"end":317.279,"text":"甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了"},{"start":317.859,"end":345.81,"text":"那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷"},{"start":346.69,"end":356.845,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1197,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（14時28分）謝謝主席，請公平會李主委。"],["主席：好，李主委。李主委好好答，拜託。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主席的提醒，其實這個我們在經濟委員會、很多委員會都已經關心過了，因為上一次在經濟委員會時大家都提醒說，生怕當兩家合併之後，變成一個外送巨獸，會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況，我也再具體建議，我今天不會跟你講什麼運費到底要多少，很明確地給大家這樣的指引，但我希望談一個比較上位的政策，因為接下來你們要補件，請他們在11月8號之前補件，之後要開始審查，那審查的基準是什麼，我在這邊給一些具體的建議，因為我非常關心外送員權益的問題，外送員工會其實也有提了幾大訴求，我相信大家也都知道，我這邊給一個例子，2021年西班牙他們有直接公布一個相關的法律，他們說外送的平臺應該要定期地提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟勞僱關係有影響的數學公式，讓大家知道這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性，這什麼意思呢？也就是說，現在這兩家數位平臺裡面，有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算，包括它要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制，就是到底撥多少比例給外送員，包括派單的建議什麼的，還有先去哪邊領單，這些它都是說用一個系統運算告訴你，可是在這些資訊不透明的情況下，其實外送員無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障。","所以剛剛很多委員都講了，透明化非常重要，國外不管是西班牙還是法國，其實他們都直接寫進法令，然後也都有相關具體的指引，就是告訴大家，這些公式透明化之後，不只是外送員看得到，消費者也看得到，大家都可以知道，大概就是在這樣的公平基準之下，才不會有人因為資訊的不透明、資訊的不對等，然後被剝削。所以在接下來的補件以及接下來的審查意見當中，我希望可以這麼具體的讓大家知道，包括現在消費者很擔心，是不是真的要變60塊以上；包括外送員也很擔心，其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到，因為獎金、薪酬的制度，包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢，全部都被平臺吃掉；店家更擔心，他們從頭到尾都覺得自己已經很辛苦了，成本可能都不夠付了，結果從頭到尾都只有平臺在賺，這個都是現在各方的擔心，所以我希望你們接下來的審查，可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員回報，我們審查的結果有三種可能，一種是禁止，禁止就不會還要附什麼條件、叫它做什麼事，禁止就是不可以結合；第二個，如果同意了，但還有很多疑慮，這時就有附條件的問題，這是兩種情形；另外一種就是完全同意，都沒有附條件，所以這個還是要看將來我們委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向。"],["黃委員捷：是，其實我有去看你們公平會的第一次審查結果，是有要求他們補件，我這邊再提一個概念，就是數位壟斷的風險，其實美國有11個州聯合向聯邦政府提起訴訟，後來是Google敗訴了，他們說Google壟斷了數位的平臺，這種數位壟斷的情況，其實在各個國家也都有發生，當一個數位平臺或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨占的時候，像我們這兩家加起來市占率超過八成，所有全部都由他們掌控，不管你的演算法要怎麼算，包括你廣告怎麼投放，包括你怎麼派單，全部都是他們一家決定。所以接下來你們必須注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題，因為在你們原本的審查意見當中，可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們把持的權力是這麼大，你們可能就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看……"],["李主任委員鎂：結合以後會不會變成一個獨占，這也是我們在審這個結合案件很重要的考量因素。"],["黃委員捷：所以我在這邊具體建議，接下來是有可能造成數位壟斷的情況，包括它可能已經占據所有市場版面，還有廣告投放，甚至最後它可以去操控市場價格了，所以拜託公平會務必要依據這樣的原則來進行，可以嗎？","最後，我再提一個小小的提醒，就是個資的保護，因為剛剛提到的都是市場的面向，最後提醒一下，因為現在foodpanda他們手中有300萬筆個資、消費者的資料，如果他們兩家合併之後，這300萬筆Uber Eats就收走了，這是一個非常嚴重的風險。所以我希望接下來在個資保護上面，雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關，但是在這個審查原則裡面，其實也跟所有使用者息息相關，這也是我要在這邊提醒的，也呼籲接下來進行審查的所有審查委員，在執行的時候，務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委，希望就如所有委員建議的這些原則之外，時程也要拉出來，好嗎？好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：第一，報告及詢答完畢。第二，委員游顥、陳冠廷所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。第三，委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或者未及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}}