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341.152, \"end\": 353.4, \"text\": \"先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 341.152, \"end\": 341.492, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 341.492, \"end\": 341.672, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 341.672, \"end\": 343.494, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 343.494, \"end\": 344.534, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 344.534, \"end\": 345.655, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 345.655, \"end\": 345.775, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 345.775, \"end\": 346.115, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 346.115, \"end\": 346.375, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 346.375, \"end\": 347.236, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 347.236, \"end\": 347.716, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"許\", 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00:01:25,595\n也就是大概接近壯世代接近我們現在這種壯世代的就業其實是呈現正常其中又以65歲以上的銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜\n\n5\n00:01:29,639 --> 00:01:43,025\n也代表臺灣的勞動力市場其實已經沒有人口紅利請教一下部長就在勞動力的老化短缺不可逆的情況我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整\n\n6\n00:01:45,019 --> 00:02:06,378\n所以委員一個當然中高齡的促進就業這是一個面向對那其次當然因應這樣的人口的不再人口紅利我先插一下話就是說中高齡的就業是我們的勞工政策的調整\n\n7\n00:02:07,699 --> 00:02:07,939\n議員吳春城\n\n8\n00:02:26,340 --> 00:02:54,645\n是,就是說當然我們這部分有帶努力啦,因為台灣普遍早退啦,有一個早退的文化,那台灣當然在這樣子的就是說有跟鄰近國家比起來,我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的這樣子的社會文化也比較強。比較嚴重,就是年齡歧視比較嚴重。年齡歧視嚴重的原因是什麼?\n\n9\n00:02:55,299 --> 00:02:55,779\n那你們相對應的政策是什麼?\n\n10\n00:03:24,003 --> 00:03:49,072\n所以這個年齡的歧視當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定你歧視是要罰款的所以這是可以被處罰的這個我們在中高齡法是有明確定定的那當然謝謝委員不過部長我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消你職場\n\n11\n00:03:51,493 --> 00:03:52,014\n我不覺得單純的處罰可以。\n\n12\n00:03:59,733 --> 00:04:23,344\n是我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦也是有的比如什麼像我們的行政獎勵措施對55plus對婦女在就業我們就是給雇主跟勞工都給補助給獎勵那其實是一個正面鼓勵的讓你去任用中高齡而且是不再把這個把這當成資產啦這是一個紅利啦對把它當成是一個你的\n\n13\n00:04:28,947 --> 00:04:53,203\n這個職場上面的一個正面的因素來看我這邊的資料是55歲到剛剛部長講的55歲以上的受僱者收到年齡就業歧視的比例大概超過9%算很高確實蠻高的我也知道來東部大概每年都有\n\n14\n00:04:54,264 --> 00:04:54,464\n我現在是問你\n\n15\n00:05:22,074 --> 00:05:39,771\n我們正在檢討我們正在檢討而且應該是這部分的要拿出對策啦好不好好謝謝委員最後一個問題可能部長也沒有辦法回答了不過我先\n\n16\n00:05:41,152 --> 00:05:53,400\n先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定\n\n17\n00:05:57,250 --> 00:06:12,537\n我不知道部裡面現在的有沒有相關的政策方向。對,委員謝謝您今年就通過了拉基法第54條,雙方合意可以延長退休。合意完\n\n18\n00:06:13,237 --> 00:06:36,308\n延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事。當然。懂我的意思嗎?我現在問的是強制退休年齡。對,可是強制退休啊。部長這樣子,我幫你解一下。你們假如現在還沒有既定的政策方向,你就直接說沒有。\n\n19\n00:06:37,352 --> 00:06:52,317\n那假如有的話,你要說明再說明。懂我的意思嗎?因為我並不想太為難你。謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題啦。這個知識體大需要...需要大家...對。這個關係...\n\n20\n00:06:59,537 --> 00:07:18,608\n我們現在先用合意推就是我們先來落死牢計劃第54條這個修法為先啦所以說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情嘛現在是65歲想要自治退休然後可以合意研查嗎那我現在問的是你有\n\n21\n00:07:20,004 --> 00:07:45,084\n政府的政策方向對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有目前沒有考慮目前沒有考慮那你就回答這樣子就可以了不過因為既然有那麼多國家都在對沿你我們縱使目前沒有相關的資料的收集跟討論\n\n22\n00:07:46,786 --> 00:07:54,476\n我不是說必須要推出這樣的政策可是總是必須要先做因應可以來研究對好好好這我們來做謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5093\t5975\t謝謝各位各位請一下何部長\n16464\t41861\t部長好部長其實在台灣邁入超公營社會的時候相關的勞動力的調整跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整我們今天審查重世代的政策跟產業發展促進法的草案今天做詢答所以我有幾個問題問一下部長\n45723\t55330\t第一個就是呢假如按照就業人口來區分就今年的8月份的統計臺灣目前是未滿45歲的就業人數是成富成長的那45歲以上\n64623\t85595\t也就是大概接近壯世代接近我們現在這種壯世代的就業其實是呈現正常其中又以65歲以上的銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜\n89639\t103025\t也代表臺灣的勞動力市場其實已經沒有人口紅利請教一下部長就在勞動力的老化短缺不可逆的情況我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整\n105019\t126378\t所以委員一個當然中高齡的促進就業這是一個面向對那其次當然因應這樣的人口的不再人口紅利我先插一下話就是說中高齡的就業是我們的勞工政策的調整\n127699\t127939\t議員吳春城\n146340\t174645\t是,就是說當然我們這部分有帶努力啦,因為台灣普遍早退啦,有一個早退的文化,那台灣當然在這樣子的就是說有跟鄰近國家比起來,我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的這樣子的社會文化也比較強。比較嚴重,就是年齡歧視比較嚴重。年齡歧視嚴重的原因是什麼?\n175299\t175779\t那你們相對應的政策是什麼?\n204003\t229072\t所以這個年齡的歧視當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定你歧視是要罰款的所以這是可以被處罰的這個我們在中高齡法是有明確定定的那當然謝謝委員不過部長我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消你職場\n231493\t232014\t我不覺得單純的處罰可以。\n239733\t263344\t是我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦也是有的比如什麼像我們的行政獎勵措施對55plus對婦女在就業我們就是給雇主跟勞工都給補助給獎勵那其實是一個正面鼓勵的讓你去任用中高齡而且是不再把這個把這當成資產啦這是一個紅利啦對把它當成是一個你的\n268947\t293203\t這個職場上面的一個正面的因素來看我這邊的資料是55歲到剛剛部長講的55歲以上的受僱者收到年齡就業歧視的比例大概超過9%算很高確實蠻高的我也知道來東部大概每年都有\n294264\t294464\t我現在是問你\n322074\t339771\t我們正在檢討我們正在檢討而且應該是這部分的要拿出對策啦好不好好謝謝委員最後一個問題可能部長也沒有辦法回答了不過我先\n341152\t353400\t先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定\n357250\t372537\t我不知道部裡面現在的有沒有相關的政策方向。對,委員謝謝您今年就通過了拉基法第54條,雙方合意可以延長退休。合意完\n373237\t396308\t延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事。當然。懂我的意思嗎?我現在問的是強制退休年齡。對,可是強制退休啊。部長這樣子,我幫你解一下。你們假如現在還沒有既定的政策方向,你就直接說沒有。\n397352\t412317\t那假如有的話,你要說明再說明。懂我的意思嗎?因為我並不想太為難你。謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題啦。這個知識體大需要...需要大家...對。這個關係...\n419537\t438608\t我們現在先用合意推 就是我們先來落死牢計劃第54條這個修法為先啦所以說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情嘛現在是65歲想要自治退休然後可以合意研查嗎那我現在問的是你有\n440004\t465084\t政府的政策方向對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有目前沒有考慮目前沒有考慮那你就回答這樣子就可以了不過因為既然有那麼多國家都在對沿你我們縱使目前沒有相關的資料的收集跟討論\n466786\t474476\t我不是說必須要推出這樣的政策可是總是必須要先做因應可以來研究對好好好這我們來做謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝各位各位請一下何部長\n部長好部長其實在台灣邁入超公營社會的時候相關的勞動力的調整跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整我們今天審查重世代的政策跟產業發展促進法的草案今天做詢答所以我有幾個問題問一下部長\n第一個就是呢假如按照就業人口來區分就今年的8月份的統計臺灣目前是未滿45歲的就業人數是成富成長的那45歲以上\n也就是大概接近壯世代接近我們現在這種壯世代的就業其實是呈現正常其中又以65歲以上的銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜\n也代表臺灣的勞動力市場其實已經沒有人口紅利請教一下部長就在勞動力的老化短缺不可逆的情況我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整\n所以委員一個當然中高齡的促進就業這是一個面向對那其次當然因應這樣的人口的不再人口紅利我先插一下話就是說中高齡的就業是我們的勞工政策的調整\n議員吳春城\n是,就是說當然我們這部分有帶努力啦,因為台灣普遍早退啦,有一個早退的文化,那台灣當然在這樣子的就是說有跟鄰近國家比起來,我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的這樣子的社會文化也比較強。比較嚴重,就是年齡歧視比較嚴重。年齡歧視嚴重的原因是什麼?\n那你們相對應的政策是什麼?\n所以這個年齡的歧視當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定你歧視是要罰款的所以這是可以被處罰的這個我們在中高齡法是有明確定定的那當然謝謝委員不過部長我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消你職場\n我不覺得單純的處罰可以。\n是我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦也是有的比如什麼像我們的行政獎勵措施對55plus對婦女在就業我們就是給雇主跟勞工都給補助給獎勵那其實是一個正面鼓勵的讓你去任用中高齡而且是不再把這個把這當成資產啦這是一個紅利啦對把它當成是一個你的\n這個職場上面的一個正面的因素來看我這邊的資料是55歲到剛剛部長講的55歲以上的受僱者收到年齡就業歧視的比例大概超過9%算很高確實蠻高的我也知道來東部大概每年都有\n我現在是問你\n我們正在檢討我們正在檢討而且應該是這部分的要拿出對策啦好不好好謝謝委員最後一個問題可能部長也沒有辦法回答了不過我先\n先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定\n我不知道部裡面現在的有沒有相關的政策方向。對,委員謝謝您今年就通過了拉基法第54條,雙方合意可以延長退休。合意完\n延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事。當然。懂我的意思嗎?我現在問的是強制退休年齡。對,可是強制退休啊。部長這樣子,我幫你解一下。你們假如現在還沒有既定的政策方向,你就直接說沒有。\n那假如有的話,你要說明再說明。懂我的意思嗎?因為我並不想太為難你。謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題啦。這個知識體大需要...需要大家...對。這個關係...\n我們現在先用合意推 就是我們先來落死牢計劃第54條這個修法為先啦所以說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情嘛現在是65歲想要自治退休然後可以合意研查嗎那我現在問的是你有\n政府的政策方向對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有目前沒有考慮目前沒有考慮那你就回答這樣子就可以了不過因為既然有那麼多國家都在對沿你我們縱使目前沒有相關的資料的收集跟討論\n我不是說必須要推出這樣的政策可是總是必須要先做因應可以來研究對好好好這我們來做謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.093 --> 00:05.975\n謝謝各位各位請一下何部長\n\n00:16.464 --> 00:41.861\n部長好部長其實在台灣邁入超公營社會的時候相關的勞動力的調整跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整我們今天審查重世代的政策跟產業發展促進法的草案今天做詢答所以我有幾個問題問一下部長\n\n00:45.723 --> 00:55.330\n第一個就是呢假如按照就業人口來區分就今年的8月份的統計臺灣目前是未滿45歲的就業人數是成富成長的那45歲以上\n\n01:04.623 --> 01:25.595\n也就是大概接近壯世代接近我們現在這種壯世代的就業其實是呈現正常其中又以65歲以上的銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜\n\n01:29.639 --> 01:43.025\n也代表臺灣的勞動力市場其實已經沒有人口紅利請教一下部長就在勞動力的老化短缺不可逆的情況我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整\n\n01:45.019 --> 02:06.378\n所以委員一個當然中高齡的促進就業這是一個面向對那其次當然因應這樣的人口的不再人口紅利我先插一下話就是說中高齡的就業是我們的勞工政策的調整\n\n02:07.699 --> 02:07.939\n議員吳春城\n\n02:26.340 --> 02:54.645\n是,就是說當然我們這部分有帶努力啦,因為台灣普遍早退啦,有一個早退的文化,那台灣當然在這樣子的就是說有跟鄰近國家比起來,我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的這樣子的社會文化也比較強。比較嚴重,就是年齡歧視比較嚴重。年齡歧視嚴重的原因是什麼?\n\n02:55.299 --> 02:55.779\n那你們相對應的政策是什麼?\n\n03:24.003 --> 03:49.072\n所以這個年齡的歧視當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定你歧視是要罰款的所以這是可以被處罰的這個我們在中高齡法是有明確定定的那當然謝謝委員不過部長我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消你職場\n\n03:51.493 --> 03:52.014\n我不覺得單純的處罰可以。\n\n03:59.733 --> 04:23.344\n是我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦也是有的比如什麼像我們的行政獎勵措施對55plus對婦女在就業我們就是給雇主跟勞工都給補助給獎勵那其實是一個正面鼓勵的讓你去任用中高齡而且是不再把這個把這當成資產啦這是一個紅利啦對把它當成是一個你的\n\n04:28.947 --> 04:53.203\n這個職場上面的一個正面的因素來看我這邊的資料是55歲到剛剛部長講的55歲以上的受僱者收到年齡就業歧視的比例大概超過9%算很高確實蠻高的我也知道來東部大概每年都有\n\n04:54.264 --> 04:54.464\n我現在是問你\n\n05:22.074 --> 05:39.771\n我們正在檢討我們正在檢討而且應該是這部分的要拿出對策啦好不好好謝謝委員最後一個問題可能部長也沒有辦法回答了不過我先\n\n05:41.152 --> 05:53.400\n先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定\n\n05:57.250 --> 06:12.537\n我不知道部裡面現在的有沒有相關的政策方向。對,委員謝謝您今年就通過了拉基法第54條,雙方合意可以延長退休。合意完\n\n06:13.237 --> 06:36.308\n延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事。當然。懂我的意思嗎?我現在問的是強制退休年齡。對,可是強制退休啊。部長這樣子,我幫你解一下。你們假如現在還沒有既定的政策方向,你就直接說沒有。\n\n06:37.352 --> 06:52.317\n那假如有的話,你要說明再說明。懂我的意思嗎?因為我並不想太為難你。謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題啦。這個知識體大需要...需要大家...對。這個關係...\n\n06:59.537 --> 07:18.608\n我們現在先用合意推就是我們先來落死牢計劃第54條這個修法為先啦所以說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情嘛現在是65歲想要自治退休然後可以合意研查嗎那我現在問的是你有\n\n07:20.004 --> 07:45.084\n政府的政策方向對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有目前沒有考慮目前沒有考慮那你就回答這樣子就可以了不過因為既然有那麼多國家都在對沿你我們縱使目前沒有相關的資料的收集跟討論\n\n07:46.786 --> 07:54.476\n我不是說必須要推出這樣的政策可是總是必須要先做因應可以來研究對好好好這我們來做謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.093,"end":5.975,"text":"謝謝各位各位請一下何部長"},{"start":16.464,"end":41.861,"text":"部長好部長其實在台灣邁入超公營社會的時候相關的勞動力的調整跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整我們今天審查重世代的政策跟產業發展促進法的草案今天做詢答所以我有幾個問題問一下部長"},{"start":45.723,"end":55.33,"text":"第一個就是呢假如按照就業人口來區分就今年的8月份的統計臺灣目前是未滿45歲的就業人數是成富成長的那45歲以上"},{"start":64.623,"end":85.595,"text":"也就是大概接近壯世代接近我們現在這種壯世代的就業其實是呈現正常其中又以65歲以上的銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜"},{"start":89.639,"end":103.025,"text":"也代表臺灣的勞動力市場其實已經沒有人口紅利請教一下部長就在勞動力的老化短缺不可逆的情況我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整"},{"start":105.019,"end":126.378,"text":"所以委員一個當然中高齡的促進就業這是一個面向對那其次當然因應這樣的人口的不再人口紅利我先插一下話就是說中高齡的就業是我們的勞工政策的調整"},{"start":127.699,"end":127.939,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":146.34,"end":174.645,"text":"是,就是說當然我們這部分有帶努力啦,因為台灣普遍早退啦,有一個早退的文化,那台灣當然在這樣子的就是說有跟鄰近國家比起來,我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的這樣子的社會文化也比較強。比較嚴重,就是年齡歧視比較嚴重。年齡歧視嚴重的原因是什麼?"},{"start":175.299,"end":175.779,"text":"那你們相對應的政策是什麼?"},{"start":204.003,"end":229.072,"text":"所以這個年齡的歧視當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定你歧視是要罰款的所以這是可以被處罰的這個我們在中高齡法是有明確定定的那當然謝謝委員不過部長我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消你職場"},{"start":231.493,"end":232.014,"text":"我不覺得單純的處罰可以。"},{"start":239.733,"end":263.344,"text":"是我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦也是有的比如什麼像我們的行政獎勵措施對55plus對婦女在就業我們就是給雇主跟勞工都給補助給獎勵那其實是一個正面鼓勵的讓你去任用中高齡而且是不再把這個把這當成資產啦這是一個紅利啦對把它當成是一個你的"},{"start":268.947,"end":293.203,"text":"這個職場上面的一個正面的因素來看我這邊的資料是55歲到剛剛部長講的55歲以上的受僱者收到年齡就業歧視的比例大概超過9%算很高確實蠻高的我也知道來東部大概每年都有"},{"start":294.264,"end":294.464,"text":"我現在是問你"},{"start":322.074,"end":339.771,"text":"我們正在檢討我們正在檢討而且應該是這部分的要拿出對策啦好不好好謝謝委員最後一個問題可能部長也沒有辦法回答了不過我先"},{"start":341.152,"end":353.4,"text":"先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定"},{"start":357.25,"end":372.537,"text":"我不知道部裡面現在的有沒有相關的政策方向。對,委員謝謝您今年就通過了拉基法第54條,雙方合意可以延長退休。合意完"},{"start":373.237,"end":396.308,"text":"延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事。當然。懂我的意思嗎?我現在問的是強制退休年齡。對,可是強制退休啊。部長這樣子,我幫你解一下。你們假如現在還沒有既定的政策方向,你就直接說沒有。"},{"start":397.352,"end":412.317,"text":"那假如有的話,你要說明再說明。懂我的意思嗎?因為我並不想太為難你。謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題啦。這個知識體大需要...需要大家...對。這個關係..."},{"start":419.537,"end":438.608,"text":"我們現在先用合意推 就是我們先來落死牢計劃第54條這個修法為先啦所以說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情嘛現在是65歲想要自治退休然後可以合意研查嗎那我現在問的是你有"},{"start":440.004,"end":465.084,"text":"政府的政策方向對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有目前沒有考慮目前沒有考慮那你就回答這樣子就可以了不過因為既然有那麼多國家都在對沿你我們縱使目前沒有相關的資料的收集跟討論"},{"start":466.786,"end":474.476,"text":"我不是說必須要推出這樣的政策可是總是必須要先做因應可以來研究對好好好這我們來做謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1419,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（14時30分）謝謝召委，召委請一下何部長。"],["主席：何部長請。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，其實在臺灣邁入超高齡社會的時候，相關勞動力跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整。我們今天審查「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法」的草案，今天作詢答，我有幾個問題問一下部長。第一個，假如按照就業人口來區分，就今年8月份的統計，臺灣目前未滿45歲的就業人數是呈負成長，而45歲以上也就是大概接近壯世代的就業人口，其實是呈現正常，其中又以65歲以上銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速，這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜，也代表臺灣的勞動力市場，其實已經沒有人口紅利。請教一下部長，在勞動力老化短缺不可逆的情況，我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，當然中高齡促進就業這是一個面向，其次因應這樣不再人口紅利……"],["楊委員曜：我先插一下話，就是中高齡的就業，在我們勞工政策的調整，可能在勞動部算是擺在很前面的……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員曜：可是我們看到對比於鄰近的國家，臺灣就中高齡的勞動參與率其實是相對低的，這個原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，當然我們這部分有待努力啦！因為臺灣普遍早退啦，有一個早退的文化，臺灣跟鄰近國家比起來，我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的社會文化也比較強。"],["楊委員曜：比較嚴重？年齡歧視比較嚴重的原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：就是也不願意任用年紀比較大的嘛，比如像55歲，在一般公司行號55歲好像就應該要讓他退了，我們現在一般的社會認知啦！可是其實以現在來講，就已經太早了，當然包括我們整個社會文化啦，有這種問題。然後……"],["楊委員曜：那你們相對應的政策是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：這個年齡的歧視，當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的，所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定，歧視是要罰款的，所以這是可以被處罰的啦！這個我們在中高齡法是有明確訂定的，謝謝委員……"],["楊委員曜：不過部長，我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消弭職場、勞動力市場的年齡歧視，我不覺得單純的處罰可以。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦，也是有的。"],["楊委員曜：譬如什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：像我們的行政獎勵措施，對55Plus、對婦女再就業，我們對雇主跟勞工都會給補助、給獎勵，那其實是一個正面鼓勵，讓你去任用中高齡者，而且是把這個當成是資產、是一個紅利，就是把他當成職場上面一個正面的因素來看待。"],["楊委員曜：我這邊的資料是，就剛剛部長講的，55歲以上的受僱者，受到年齡就業歧視的比率大概超過9%，算很高耶！"],["何部長佩珊：確實是滿高的。"],["楊委員曜：我也知道勞動部大概每年都有運用就安基金辦理防制就業歧視等等的業務，我不知道為什麼推了這麼久，我們中高齡就業者面臨的歧視還是那麼嚴重……"],["何部長佩珊：這確實值得檢討。"],["楊委員曜：我現在是問你檢討了沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：有，我們正在檢討，而且應該這部分……"],["楊委員曜：要拿出對策，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：最後一個問題，可能部長也沒有辦法回答，不過，我就先提出來，根據審計部的報告，其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長，或者是沒有強制退休年齡的規定，我不知道部裡現在有沒有相關的政策方向？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，謝謝您今年通過了勞基法第五十四條，雙方合意可以延長退休。"],["楊委員曜：不是，合意延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事，懂我的意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["楊委員曜：我現在問的是強制退休年齡。"],["何部長佩珊：可是強制退休……"],["楊委員曜：部長，我幫你結尾一下，假如你們現在還沒有既定的政策方向，你就直接說沒有；假如有的話，你要說明再說明，懂我的意思嗎？因為我並不想太為難你。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題，這個茲事體大，需要大家……"],["楊委員曜：不重大我也不會提出來，所以部裡面現在沒有……"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在先用合意來推動，就是我們先來落實勞基法第五十四條的修法。"],["楊委員曜：我知道！我知道！只是說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情，現在是65歲強制退休，然後可以合意延長，我現在問的是，勞動部這邊有沒有政策方向，對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有……"],["何部長佩珊：目前沒有考慮。"],["楊委員曜：目前沒有考慮？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員曜：你回答這樣子就可以了。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：不過，因為既然有那麼多國家都在研擬，我們縱使目前沒有，但相關資料的蒐集跟討論還是要進行，我不是說必須要推出這樣子的政策，但總是要先做因應。"],["何部長佩珊：可以來研究。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們會來做，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員盧縣一、張嘉郡、陳超明、林憶君、邱議瑩、邱志偉、謝衣鳯所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","一、請問勞動部：2024年2月起推動「55 Plus 壯世代就業促進措施」有哪些？目前推動成效如何？本計畫是否含協助中高年齡失業原住民族人重返職場案例？","二、請問行政院、衛福部：據內政部「111年原住民簡易生命表」，原住民平均餘命仍比全體國民低，甚至「山地原住民」還比「平地原住民」低，行政院有何因應之道？另外，行政院「因應超高齡社會對策方案」整合15部會、345項工作，112至115年投入逾1,200億元預算，其中是否有針對原住民族部分？"],["委員張嘉郡書面質詢：","請勞動部：","●今天在經濟委員會，正在討論少子化問題，根據國發會公布2024人口推估報告，我國的人口將一路銳減，至2040年時，每年新生兒數也將跌破10萬大關，到時，勞動市場的人口結構會被大幅改變，如何讓勞動力能夠延續，是牽動整個社會結構、國家稅收乃至於國家存亡的大議題，所以今日吳春城委員致力推動【壯世代草案】，相當重要，刻不容緩。","●本席首先要請教的是有關退休年齡問題，我們內閣首長總平均歲數62.5歲，我們行政院卓院長，今年也是65歲，如果參考最近的民調，有近7成受訪者認為強制退休不合理、超過7成贊成廢除強制退休制度，並有近6成認為強制退休制度違憲，可見國民對強制退休的規定已有相當共識，因為沒有人希望，自己在65歲以後就變成次等公民，連人生自主權都無法掌握。本席要請教勞動部，對於如何協助55歲以上壯世代續留或重返職場，你們有那些具體的方案？","●我們可以看到，我們的鄰國日本，同樣面臨高齡少子化的問題，在2021年，日本政府通過《國家公務員法》修正案，將國家公務員的退休年齡從現在的60歲逐步提高到65歲。在企業界，豐田（Toyota）汽車，重新聘僱65歲以上的中高齡高階員工、最多可工作到70歲，期望透過回聘資深員工、解決勞動力短缺和生產線的產力問題。台灣的高齡少子化問題同樣嚴重，有鑑於此，本席認為不管是經濟部、勞動部應該對於如何鼓勵企業聘用中高齡狀世代，要有相關的措施。","●最後本席也建議，行政院應該針對狀世代之政策之規劃，成立一個狀世代政策統籌辦公室，因為我們可以看到，這個議題牽涉各部會，勢必會需要一個跨部會的協調機制，才能讓相關政策更完備，甚至行政機關也可以針對狀世代草案提出對案，讓討論更充分，更多元。"],["委員陳超明書面質詢：","勞動部將「中高齡勞工」的定義，以45歲為分水嶺，根據國發會的推估，全台灣45歲以上的壯世代，在明年將突破半數，達到百分之51，也就是每2個人就有1人超過45歲，2025年台灣65歲以上人口，占總人口比率即將突破百分之20，也是是每5個人中就有1個人超過65歲。台灣的人口紅利正式結束，社會不再有充沛的青壯勞力，人力資源將面臨重整。未來退休是否應由當事人自行決定而非由法規或企業強迫，經濟部、勞動部針對企業進用人力，是否鬆綁的規劃或獎助措施？"],["委員林憶君書面質詢：","1、 根據統計，2019年出生人數與與死亡人數「黃金交叉」後，至今仍舊「生不如死」，去年我國生育率僅0.87人，是全球第二低的國家。因此，本席認為，雖然政府過去八年很認真挽救生育，但各部會的努力所投入的鉅額經費及推動的政策沒有發揮效果，政府愈努力、情況愈糟糕。對此，行政院有什麼看法？拯救低迷的生育率仍是目標嗎？若是，該如何達成目標？","二、根據《遠見》2023年「台灣迎向超高齡社會大調查」1發現，逾八成民眾考慮重返職場，只是回歸形式不一。其中有三成民眾表示任何形式都接受，但退休後重返職場的回歸模式，仍以特定公司的兼職工作為主、占30.1%。","https://www.gvm.com.tw/article/105424","在問到是否認為或感受到職場對中高齡者有差別待遇時，只有16.3%表示都沒感受到。反之，約83%民眾感受年齡差別待遇，前三大差別待遇是升遷加薪機會變少（47.9%）、被勸退（44%）、職位易被調動或降階（30.8%）。","中高齡重回職場的阻礙有哪些？整體指出四大原因：被認定體力不濟，無法長時間工作（58.3%）；企業不喜中高齡、錄取率低（54.8%）；專業能力不足或已過時（36.4%）；職位高不成低不就、很尷尬（35.3%）。2","由上述可知，民眾有意在退休後回到職場，可是職場氛圍不一定友善，請問行政院對於年齡歧視有什麼對策嗎？請財政部研議為聘用中高齡者的企業給予賦稅補助以增加誘因，並於二個月內給予本席書面報告。","2 \n            \n                https://www.gvm.com.tw/article/116269","三、今年7月本院三讀通過勞基法第54條修正，增訂了「所規定之年齡，得由勞雇雙方協商延後之」。鼓勵勞資雙方間可以透過協商，合意延後強制退休年齡。然而，並不是勞工年滿65歲，都不再會被強制退休、可以繼續工作。也就是，如果雇主堅持，還是可以強制員工退休。而修法前後差別在於，把協商明定化，因為在修法前，勞資就可以協商，修法後鼓勵協商，法條的「得」並不具有強制性。勞動部是否認為這法條是變相的加深年齡歧視嗎？本席理解，勞動市場上有供需，不應該強制雇主聘用中高齡者，然而就實際面而言，他們有意願卻是弱勢。勞動部是否支持退休年齡延後？配合本席前述所提及之提供賦稅補助來營造友善的就業環境？以因應未來國家的危機。"],["委員邱議瑩書面質詢：","少子化綜覽：","1.因為國發會每兩年要發布1次人口推估，10月17日發報2024年版，少子高齡化趨勢更為嚴峻，引發社會高度關注，因此安排此次專報。","2.國發會僅負責人口推估，實際上的少子高齡化政策，是由教育部、衛福部主責。","3.少子高齡化趨勢是不可逆的；這是基於社會發展下必然的趨勢，無分哪個政黨執政；再多政策獎勵只能趨緩惡化的速率，無法逆轉。","4.就世界各國而言，這也是普遍的趨勢；只是東亞的韓國、台灣、新加坡、中國、日本更為嚴重；反而更早進入文明階段的西北歐、美國、澳洲，生育率有穩住，延緩少子高齡化趨勢。","5.既然這是無法改變的趨勢，所以要檢討在野黨各種杯葛預算、奪權的亂政，是讓少子高齡化更雪上加霜。","報告內容：","1.先解讀國發會最新版報告重點：少子高齡化趨勢不可逆且更為惡化。連續引述國發會報告4張內容，首先是總人口減少的趨勢，非常明顯。其次是生產者與老年人口之比將於2070年達1，也就是1名15-64歲的人，要養育1名老人或兒童。接下來兩張是呈現這次的推估，比起2022年的推估，更為惡化。","2.國發會最新版報告重點2：少子高齡化是全球趨勢。述國發會報告2張內容，凸顯東亞的韓國、台灣、新加坡、中國、日本少子高齡化更為嚴重；反而更早進入文明階段的西北歐、美國、澳洲，生育率有穩住，延緩少子高齡化趨勢。可以詢問教育部、衛福部西北歐、美國、澳洲等國，為何有辦法維持高生育率？有無值得台灣借鏡的地方？","3.開始檢視目前的少子高齡化政策。","●卓榮泰內閣有構思育兒零負擔，但只有媒體披露過，尚未成形。目標是給予每個孩子每月補助，直到念幼兒園為止。可詢問目前規劃到哪？","●0-6歲國家一起養2.0。目前能提供60萬個0-6歲托育名額。","■今年起：公托補助每月5,500元→7,000元；準公托補助每月8,500元→1.3萬元","■2歲專班已增設1,078班；未來兩年再增200班","■是否會因為總預算案遭擋而受影響？","4.任何獎勵、友善生育政策，都只能減緩、無法逆轉少子高齡化趨勢。如果連這些激勵政策都遭到政治干擾，不就雪上加霜？","●財劃法依在野黨版本通過：中央喪失4,000億元的掌控權，僅剩3,600億元。少子化對策計畫294億元將何去何從？","●2025年度總預算案","■0-6歲國家一起養2.01082億元，較上年度增加41億元","■兒童及青少年1,335億元，較上年度增加44億元","◆教育部：發展並健全幼稚教育、高中職輔助學費措施、高中職免學費方案","◆衛福部：0至2歲育兒津貼補助、公共及準公共化托育服務","◆勞動部：勞工育嬰留職停薪津貼","■婦女88億元，較上年度增加22億元","◆衛福部：人工生殖技術補助、孕婦產前檢查服務","◆教育部：國民小學學童課後照顧、特殊境遇婦女之子女教育補助","◆國防部：提升性別平等友善工作環境","◆內政部：新住民家庭學習成長、子女托育","■有這麼多新增預算攸關少子高齡化政策，相關部會有無評估，若總預算案真的被阻，未來要如何執行？","人口警報大響，國發會10月17日提出少子化、勞動市場、經濟與產業、財政收支及社會環境等五面向對策，預計明年2月將邀集各相關部會召開會議，研提具體對策。國家人口政策刻不容緩，為何要等到明年2月才要開會？","旅宿業可聘僑外生從事中階技術工作","交通部觀光署評估國內缺乏在旅宿業從事房務、清潔、訂房、接待或旅宿所屬餐廳外場等工作人才，因此，8月28日起，將開放僑外生可從事旅宿業中階技術工作。","勞動力發展署說，只要是領有交通部核發觀光旅館經營執照的觀光旅館業、領有地方政府核發旅館業登記證或民宿登記證的旅宿業者，都可以申請聘僱畢業僑外生從事旅宿服務中階工作，聘僱名額則依該旅宿業員工勞保人數的3成來計算。","勞動力發展署表示，只要副學士以上學位畢業的僑外生，且接受過國內大專校院、觀光署或產業公協會累計80小時以上實習訓練課程，都可以從事旅宿業中階技術工作；也規定初次受聘薪資門檻為新臺幣3萬元、續聘3.3萬元，希望透過擴大開放僱用僑外生，紓解決旅宿業缺工狀況。目前成效如何？","此外，勞動力發展署也說，年底前將跨部會協商修法，建立僑外生個人工作許可制，擴大留用僑外生補實各行業勞動力；至於其他產業所反映的缺工，像是缺乏醫院照護輔佐人力、物流倉儲理貨人力、貨車駕駛及助理人力、公路及市區汽車客運駕駛及安全管理人力等，後續，將由國發會、勞動部、衛福部、經濟部及交通部跨部會共同評估運用僑外生人力解決缺工。","3+4僑生專班議題","我國面臨人口結構高齡化、少子化及國際人才競逐等諸多挑戰，為強化產業競爭力，填補人力缺口，除了擴大引進外籍移工，先行吸收和儲備海外人才也是政府部門的共同目標。在國發會整體規劃下，僑委會、教育部、勞動部各有自己的目標，而早在2014年開始，僑委會也開始擴大招募僑生，而且從16歲的孩子招攬起。","少子女化年代，台灣眾多私立高職面臨存亡關鍵，它們在國家政策「3＋4產學攜手合作僑生專班」裡找到一個藥方。2014年（103學年度）起不過短短10年間，這些學校已漸漸靠著東南亞7國「僑生」續命；明年3萬名私立高職生中，每4名就將有1位「僑生」。","各行業欠缺基層勞工，過往還有台籍的「建校合作生」實習、填補人力，但近年連台灣學生也漸漸棄守這條就學管道，僑生意外填補了人力空缺。","「3＋4產學攜手合作僑生專班」（簡稱3＋4僑生專班）。由於是僑生系統，此學制是2014年由僑委會主導，教育部和勞動部配合辦理而生，招收16～22歲的學生來台，先讀完3年高職後，直升各校合作的私立科技大學再讀4年，總共留學7年。","擁有東南亞7國身分證的學生都能申請，唯一門檻是，必須先在當地的「中華民國駐外機構」考過最初階（A1）的華語文能力測驗（TOCFL）。","報導者報導中提到：來台僑生抱怨與赴台求學前的期待，相差甚遠，除了語言障礙，即使僑生能講著流利中文，學校、廠商都未必安排循序漸進的技職訓練：「來到這邊之後才理解，3＋4講難聽就是，你只是披著學生外套的外勞，做台灣人不想做的工作。」也提到勞動現場太缺工，有廠商要求僑生假造班表的亂象。是少數個案還是普遍情況？","僑生3+4專班畢業率及留臺率仍屬偏低","監察院112年12月報告也指出：僑委會辦理「產學攜手合作僑生專班（3+4）」之畢業率及留臺率仍屬偏低，整體效益不彰，促請行政院轉飭僑委會、經濟部、教育部及勞動部檢討改善。","監察委員范巽綠、賴振昌及林盛豐表示：僑委會前自103年起擴大辦理「產學攜手合作僑生專班（3+4）」，112年招生人數已達4,069人；惟目前第1至第3屆完成7年（3+4）學業之畢業率分別僅為43.77%、34.36%及25.51%，均未及5成，而留臺率則分別為38.79%、31.69%及24.54%，實際人數只有109人、154人及185人，整體效益不彰。","且該會近期預估至120學年時，專班將達成7成以上之畢業率及留臺率，仍未見精準分析，均有待積極改善。各部會要如何檢討改善，為台灣留住人材？"],["委員邱志偉書面質詢：","議題：壯世代就業","1.人口結構變化與企業人力策略調整","隨著2024年台灣45歲以上人口將佔全人口的一半，且到2028年工作年齡人口將降至66.3%，政府是否已制定政策來協助企業應對人口紅利結束和勞動力供應減少的挑戰？有哪些具體措施能幫助企業調整人力策略，尤其在高齡化社會中，如何提升45歲以上勞動力的利用率？","2.企業招募困難與政府支持政策","隨著企業在未來面臨傳統用人模式下的招募困難，政府是否有引導企業改變用人觀念，善用壯年勞動力的政策？此外，針對壯世代新進員工佔比僅7%的情況，政府有無推動措施促使企業調整招募策略，聘用更多壯年人才？","3.消除年齡歧視與職場刻板印象","儘管法律已禁止年齡歧視，許多企業仍存在對壯年勞工的刻板印象。政府是否有具體措施推動企業落實法規，並協助打破年齡偏見？針對體能限制的「資深勞工」，是否有職務再設計補助計畫，協助他們在勞動市場上保持競爭力？","4.再就業與薪資保障","針對「資深勞工」在再就業時遇到薪資下降的問題，政府是否有推動企業提供符合市場行情的薪酬政策，避免因薪資過低而招不到足夠人力？如何鼓勵企業正視這些勞工的再就業需求？","5.專業技能培訓與學習能力提升","針對「資深勞工」在就業時常被質疑學習能力，行政單位是否有推動更多技術訓練及證照考取機會的計畫，幫助他們提升職場競爭力？針對這些勞工缺乏專業技能而難以找到理想工作的現象，政府有無提供更多針對非體力勞動的職業培訓？","6.工作彈性與「資深勞工」的聘用困境","許多「資深勞工」因無法配合加班、應酬或出差，導致企業不願聘用。政府有何措施協助他們平衡工作彈性與企業需求，以避免限制過多影響工作機會？"],["委員謝衣鳯書面質詢：","一、壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案，旨在應對高齡化現象，促進產業發展以因應人口變遷所帶來的新社會與市場結構。該法案的目標是解決國家政策制定與產業發展在面對人口變遷時的挑戰，以避免銀髮海嘯對國家造成負面影響。壯世代概念是反年齡歧視的良好概念，意在引起對於高齡對策的重視，並期望透過相關法案推動改善壯年世代的就業狀況，以及適應勞動市場的變化需求。","二、而根據國家發展委員會的預估：15-24歲占總勞動力比率，到2030年將降為6.2%，預估25-54歲占總勞動力比率2030年將降為69.9%。未來55歲及以上占總勞動力比率將持續攀升，2030年增加至23.8%，可見我國核心勞動力年齡持續向後遞延，因此友善中高齡就業勢不可擋。而攸關勞動人力的目的事業主管機關，包含了勞動部、經濟部、農業部、衛福部、國發會等行政機關。因此為推動所謂狀世代的經濟與就業，採取增立專法，來整合相關部會及政策，亦為立法政策上可採行之方式。但依據前面的論述，可瞭解該事務亟需跨部會密切且深入的合作，絕非單一部會可以獨攬，對此應審慎立法，以確保部會能跨部會合作，真正落實該法的立法目的。"],["主席：作以下決議：說明及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者從其所定。","委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」，委員會另擇期辦公聽會及繼續審查。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（14時39分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}}