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\"什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項法條規範的法律構成要件不明確所以違憲但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題認為那根本都不是問題因為他直接講什麼他沒有去指摘一事一條之一是違反構成要件明確性沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 218.826, \"end\": 219.046, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 219.046, \"end\": 219.306, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 219.306, \"end\": 219.566, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 219.566, \"end\": 219.827, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 219.827, \"end\": 220.127, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 220.127, \"end\": 220.267, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 220.267, \"end\": 220.467, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 220.467, \"end\": 220.667, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 220.667, \"end\": 221.107, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 221.107, \"end\": 221.327, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 221.327, \"end\": 221.528, 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{\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 225.99, \"end\": 226.01, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 226.01, \"end\": 226.05, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 226.05, \"end\": 226.07, \"score\": 0.652}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 226.07, \"end\": 226.13, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 226.13, \"end\": 226.19, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"摘\", \"start\": 226.19, \"end\": 226.31, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 226.31, \"end\": 226.41, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 226.41, \"end\": 227.651, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 227.651, \"end\": 227.771, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 227.771, \"end\": 227.891, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 227.891, \"end\": 228.011, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 228.011, \"end\": 228.251, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 228.251, \"end\": 228.451, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 228.451, \"end\": 228.631, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 228.631, \"end\": 229.012, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 229.012, \"end\": 229.132, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 229.132, \"end\": 229.272, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 229.272, \"end\": 229.412, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 229.412, \"end\": 229.492, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 229.492, \"end\": 229.512, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 247.787, \"end\": 265.179, \"text\": \"沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋啊也沒有說舊情所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋啊因為現行法都有了嘛他直接釜底抽薪說什麼啊他說公務委員虛偽陳述行政首長政府委員在立法院說謊這個是政治責任無赦啊法律責任來我先請教一下我們的周秘書長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 247.787, \"end\": 247.988, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 247.988, \"end\": 248.428, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"虛\"}, {\"word\": \"偽\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", 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{\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 263.658, \"end\": 263.678, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 263.678, \"end\": 263.698, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 263.698, \"end\": 263.838, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"謊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 263.838, \"end\": 263.939, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 263.939, \"end\": 264.079, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 264.079, \"end\": 264.099, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 264.099, \"end\": 264.119, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 264.119, \"end\": 264.279, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"赦\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 264.279, \"end\": 264.319, \"score\": 0.485}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 264.319, \"end\": 264.459, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 264.459, \"end\": 264.479, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 264.479, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 274.355, \"end\": 274.955, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 274.955, \"end\": 275.136, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 275.136, \"end\": 275.596, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 275.596, \"end\": 276.596, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 276.596, \"end\": 276.816, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 276.816, \"end\": 277.016, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 277.016, \"end\": 277.196, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 277.196, \"end\": 278.097, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 278.097, \"end\": 278.257, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 278.257, \"end\": 278.437, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 278.437, \"end\": 278.597, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 278.597, \"end\": 278.877, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 278.877, \"end\": 280.037, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"謊\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 280.037, \"end\": 280.257, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 280.257, \"end\": 280.378, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 280.378, \"end\": 280.558, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 280.558, \"end\": 280.678, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 280.678, \"end\": 280.898, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 280.898, \"end\": 281.138, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 281.138, \"end\": 281.538, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 281.538, \"end\": 282.358, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 282.358, \"end\": 282.538, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 282.538, \"end\": 283.999, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 283.999, \"end\": 284.219, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 284.219, \"end\": 284.539, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 284.539, \"end\": 284.739, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 284.739, \"end\": 285.159, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 285.159, \"end\": 285.419, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 285.419, \"end\": 285.8, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 285.8, \"end\": 285.96, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 285.96, \"end\": 286.08, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 286.08, \"end\": 286.22, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 286.22, \"end\": 286.4, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 286.4, \"end\": 286.42, \"score\": 0.011}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 291.354, \"end\": 317.734, \"text\": \"如果按照大法官有錢解釋那就沒辦法就沒辦法嘛因為我不管怎麼說我們大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以可以行事責任如果可以行事責任就是違憲那我就完全看不懂啊而中華民國的憲法法學啊非常的特殊啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 291.354, 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\"我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去啊他愛來不來都可以啊他上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎來我們繼續往下看\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 715.143, \"end\": 715.243, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 715.243, \"end\": 715.403, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 715.403, \"end\": 715.543, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 715.543, \"end\": 715.643, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"憑\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 715.643, \"end\": 715.703, \"score\": 0.619}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"函\", \"start\": 715.703, \"end\": 715.843, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 715.843, \"end\": 715.863, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 715.863, \"end\": 715.883, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 715.883, \"end\": 715.903, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"愛\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 715.903, \"end\": 716.003, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", 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{\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 736.613, \"end\": 736.733, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 736.733, \"end\": 737.314, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 737.314, \"end\": 737.474, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 737.474, \"end\": 737.654, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 737.654, \"end\": 738.994, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 738.994, \"end\": 739.175, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 739.175, \"end\": 739.675, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"舊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 739.675, \"end\": 740.375, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 740.375, \"end\": 740.595, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"守\", \"start\": 740.595, \"end\": 741.976, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"閣\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 741.976, \"end\": 742.176, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 742.176, \"end\": 743.056, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"殿\", \"start\": 1065.733, \"end\": 1065.933, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"堂\", \"start\": 1065.933, \"end\": 1066.313, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1066.313, \"end\": 1066.913, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1066.913, \"end\": 1067.294, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1067.294, \"end\": 1067.514, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1067.514, \"end\": 1068.615, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1068.615, \"end\": 1068.815, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1068.815, \"end\": 1069.095, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1069.095, \"end\": 1069.395, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 1069.395, \"end\": 1069.575, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"攻\", \"start\": 1069.575, \"end\": 1070.236, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"擊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1070.236, \"end\": 1070.596, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1070.596, \"end\": 1070.776, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1070.776, \"end\": 1070.896, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1070.896, \"end\": 1070.976, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 1070.976, \"end\": 1071.156, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 1071.156, \"end\": 1072.177, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1072.177, \"end\": 1072.577, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1072.577, \"end\": 1072.697, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1072.697, \"end\": 1072.818, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 1072.818, \"end\": 1072.978, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1072.978, \"end\": 1073.358, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1073.358, \"end\": 1073.778, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1073.778, \"end\": 1074.279, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1074.279, \"end\": 1074.439, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"遭\", \"start\": 1074.439, \"end\": 1074.699, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 1074.699, \"end\": 1074.879, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1074.879, \"end\": 1074.959, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1074.959, \"end\": 1075.119, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1075.119, \"end\": 1075.299, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1075.299, \"end\": 1075.479, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"屈\", \"start\": 1075.479, \"end\": 1075.499, \"score\": 0.121}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1076.3, \"end\": 1076.32, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 1076.32, \"end\": 1076.34, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,393 --> 00:00:17,898\n謝謝主席有請周秘書長還有檢察院李秘書長請周秘書長、李秘書長兩位時間的關係不亦問候對於這一次憲法法庭的判決當然在社會上面有非常多不一樣的評價\n\n2\n00:00:42,782 --> 00:01:09,662\n民進黨的總召柯建民說這是一個偉大的憲法判決另外一位我個人是比較敬重真正長期在研究有關於國會改革我們民進黨非常重要的前輩林卓水他說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權林卓水說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權讓\n\n3\n00:01:11,824 --> 00:01:38,266\n台灣的立法院離正常西方民主國家的體制越來越遠讓台灣國會體制成為獨一無二的民主怪胎我兩面俱成兩種不一樣的看法通通都有我想要比較具體的來看我們在看有關於國會改革過去\n\n4\n00:01:39,229 --> 00:01:57,551\n民進黨的前輩啊他主張的是什麼是沒有聽證沒有調查立法院就缺了牙的老虎那這個比較像是形容詞啊因為內容比較不具體那我們再往下看那林佳龍是直接說什麼他說啊說謊\n\n5\n00:02:01,039 --> 00:02:16,663\n更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證實或虛偽陳述復起刑法上、政治上面的責任所以那個時候才會民進黨的智庫、台灣智庫編一個冊子叫做請對國會說實話請對國會說實話\n\n6\n00:02:21,864 --> 00:02:48,403\n當然問題是現在按照我們憲法法庭我們的大法官所接觸的憲政價值其實不用對國會說實話因為即使在國會上面說謊即使在國會上面說謊也不會有任何的法律責任他說要負的只有負政治責任沒有法律責任然後我們進一步的來看\n\n7\n00:02:49,304 --> 00:03:13,950\n比較精準的來看一下我們憲法法庭的判決理由上面是怎麼寫的他在政府人員應邀出席立法院各種委員會說明陳述意見這是責任政治行政院要對立法院負責的憲法要求這是政治責任沒有法律責任所以這不可以有法律責任的性質\n\n8\n00:03:14,997 --> 00:03:36,844\n特別是在針對有關於刑法141條之一當初141條之一有很多法界的先進甚至是民進黨、行政院、總統那邊的訴訟代理人的代表說什麼欠缺法律明確性什麼叫虛偽陳述\n\n9\n00:03:38,826 --> 00:03:49,512\n什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項法條規範的法律構成要件不明確所以違憲但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題認為那根本都不是問題因為他直接講什麼他沒有去指摘一事一條之一是違反構成要件明確性沒有\n\n10\n00:04:07,787 --> 00:04:25,179\n沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋啊也沒有說舊情所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋啊因為現行法都有了嘛他直接釜底抽薪說什麼啊他說公務委員虛偽陳述行政首長政府委員在立法院說謊這個是政治責任無赦啊法律責任來我先請教一下我們的周秘書長\n\n11\n00:04:33,735 --> 00:04:46,420\n在這樣子的情況下在立法院在立法院裡面說謊我們只要可以行事責任就為限還有任何透過修法補救的可能性嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:51,354 --> 00:05:17,734\n如果按照大法官有錢解釋那就沒辦法就沒辦法嘛因為我不管怎麼說我們大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以可以行事責任如果可以行事責任就是違憲那我就完全看不懂啊而中華民國的憲法法學啊非常的特殊啊\n\n13\n00:05:19,363 --> 00:05:44,194\n不管在美國﹐在法國﹐在德國﹐在日本虛偽陳述﹐科與刑事責任在我們具有中華民國憲法法學的大法官眼中啊通通都是違憲的那已經不是接下來可不可以修法補救的問題啦是這一腳踩下去了以後根本沒有任何的回頭路當然啦\n\n14\n00:05:45,239 --> 00:06:00,156\n如果這一次大法官可以做這樣子的解釋有人說是修正有人說是掏空有人說是補充有人說是變更四至五八五那個留待接下來的憲法學者自己慢慢的去詮釋\n\n15\n00:06:01,357 --> 00:06:21,086\n但是只是看未來這號判決是不是未來新的憲法法庭在未來的時候從法的續照憲政價值的延伸是不是有繼續變更的可能性但我現在要問的比較直接的問題第一個在這一次的立法的程序上面\n\n16\n00:06:22,006 --> 00:06:41,084\n我知道秘書長遭受到了非常多的誣衊跟指摘非常多的誣衊跟指摘甚至有立法委員對於你允許舉手投票這件事情直接嗆聲說要把你趕下台那我覺得某個程度上面秘書長辛苦了\n\n17\n00:06:46,417 --> 00:07:13,837\n在這整個過程當中承受了很多不需要承受的事情甚至還遭到暴力攻擊因為對你暴力攻擊的立法委員跟你道歉沒有在委員會裡面他有特別稍微做一個說明有道歉嗎只能就是說只能在這邊跟委員報告他有特別一個說明他有說明嗎\n\n18\n00:07:17,077 --> 00:07:44,448\n連道歉基本的態度都沒有展現出來對議事人員發動暴力攻擊所以嘛實質討論的時間極其有限異常常常處於一片混亂這個是這次憲法法庭對於說立法程序他說合憲但有瑕疵但這個瑕疵到底是誰造成的我相信全國民眾心裡有一把尺\n\n19\n00:07:46,097 --> 00:08:04,647\n議場常常處於影片混亂為什麼會混亂暴力攻擊嘛要不然我們的議場怎麼會變成這個樣子進一步啊具體來看我看了以後我其實非常的驚訝因為大法官宣告違憲的條文啊不是只有這次修的欸\n\n20\n00:08:05,799 --> 00:08:30,040\n他已經貫穿到啊2008年修的條文啊都宣告違憲了我為什麼說他貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲來看一下立法院職權行使法15條之二第一項立法院得經全體立法委員四分之以上提議院會決議後由程序委員會排定議程這個條文是這一次修正的嗎\n\n21\n00:08:32,801 --> 00:08:55,997\n報告委員因為這個是在97年才會加這一張的啦2008年嘛對那這個是97年5月9號在第7屆修的但是這個條文裡面因為這一次的第15條之二的第一項已經變成違憲了所以幾乎現在立法委員是沒有提案的權利所以我們現在\n\n22\n00:08:57,478 --> 00:09:03,908\n即使經過全體立法委員四分之一的提議院會決議由程序委員會排定一層邀請總統來是違憲的嘛是吧\n\n23\n00:09:09,954 --> 00:09:30,967\n這個是2008年的時候修法的內容我們這次憲法法庭宣告違憲的範圍非常的廣把以前2008年的時候賴清德曾經參與過的修法他的表示贊成的修法通通宣告違憲讓台灣正式走入一個得到40%選票的總統可以當超級大總統的超級大總統制\n\n24\n00:09:37,861 --> 00:09:45,093\n他腦袋裡面在想的不是過去民進黨在野的時候大家腦袋在想的事情\n\n25\n00:09:46,514 --> 00:10:15,114\n當行政權獨大國會沒有辦法有效監督制衡的時候怎麼強化國會的調查權跟聽證權甚至離譜到什麼程度啊那個不是只有把以前的條文以前的規範2008年的規定都宣告違憲了來我們直接再看啊立法院職權行使法25條第三項備質詢人沒有經過院會或各委員會的同意不得缺席啊連這個都宣告違憲啊\n\n26\n00:10:16,844 --> 00:10:36,726\n這個部分秘書長你有沒有掌握我們的資料整理裡面可以看到第8頁那你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長啊我為什麼說你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長來看一下韓國瑜院長在9月28號院會宣布的\n\n27\n00:10:37,711 --> 00:10:58,610\n他說來立法院這一邊備詢的時候請行政院院長、副院長、各部會首長要親自出席備質詢除非有特別重要的事情以外不要請假立法院前有韓文通知行政院轉告各部會首長要遵照辦理\n\n28\n00:10:59,861 --> 00:11:24,902\n那你如果按照這次憲法法庭的判決行政官員不來行政官員不來不請假沒有得到同意立法院也沒辦法幹嘛那我們立法院發給行政院這個韓文是不是有違憲啊來請教秘書長這一次我們大概裡面是按照26條裡面衍生的意識力\n\n29\n00:11:26,363 --> 00:11:49,500\n對但是他已經講來來來看一下憲法法庭判決的理由他說什麼立法院沒有凌駕行政院之上就行政院院長等行政首長請假不出席立法院院會的情況立法院不可以自我授權為同意或不同意的權限啦簡單來講是什麼他愛來不來不用經過立法院同意啦那既然不用經過立法院同意\n\n30\n00:11:55,143 --> 00:11:56,944\n我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去啊他愛來不來都可以啊他上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎來我們繼續往下看\n\n31\n00:12:09,790 --> 00:12:36,942\n2016年4月14號內政委員會叫那個時候那個時候選舉結束了啦有新的國會但是舊的看守內閣新的國會因為2016年2月1號以後民進黨就過半了嘛但是那個時候還是馬政府在看守內閣的狀態那個時候行政院秘書長沒有向內政委員會報告並列席備詢\n\n32\n00:12:39,099 --> 00:12:48,697\n所以那個時候在內政委員會提案譴責在我們憲法法庭的憲政秩序憲政價值之下我們還可以提案譴責嗎請教秘書長\n\n33\n00:12:56,018 --> 00:13:14,648\n因為剛才黃委員的整個的一個提問過程當中因為有涉及到藐視國會已經沒有了啦沒有啦現在沒有啦那個是刑事處罰他不行嘛現在我只有回到請假不請假的問題嘛我們院會委員會\n\n34\n00:13:16,573 --> 00:13:42,221\n院會委員會說要經過我們院會委員會的同意大法官說這是國會擴權啊不可以做這樣子的規定啊那不可以做這樣子的規定我們一定要往下延伸說我們憲法法庭這麼偉大的意旨到底要怎麼貫徹在立法院的運作當中嗎那我看了以後我就覺得很困惑啊那以後不來我的提案譴責啊這個會不會違憲啊請教秘書長高健\n\n35\n00:13:48,603 --> 00:13:59,695\n譴責案是不會嘛所以我們立法院以後可以打嘴砲可以打嘴砲譴責不用違憲嘛但是有牙齒的東西可能就會違憲2016年4月14號這個例子還可以進一步往前延伸\n\n36\n00:14:09,008 --> 00:14:18,975\n因為那個時候民進黨的委員除了提案譴責以外他還要求什麼啊要移送監察院啊移送監察院有沒有違憲啊如果以條文來看目前他的解釋是違憲不能送了那我就覺得很奇怪啦因為移送監察院的條文啊這個是1999年就通過的條文欸\n\n37\n00:14:35,507 --> 00:15:01,270\n這次修法針對立法院移送給監察院跟他調閱東西不給移送給監察院的不是這次修法的是1999年修法的東西我們這次修法法庭是貫穿力非常的強烈不是只有在審查這次修法的內容1999年移送給監察院的\n\n38\n00:15:02,301 --> 00:15:24,939\n他說這個是憲政爭議上非監察院行使糾正權的範圍而且立法院沒有所謂的移送權那麼以後要注意立法院不要隨便移送東西給監察院因為我們連移送權都沒有監察院愛辦不辦要怎麼辦監察院自己去討論\n\n39\n00:15:26,604 --> 00:15:45,894\n再往下看行政院當初提附議理由的時候我說上面充斥的假訊息其中一個有重要的是什麼他說我們認定最低審查是一個月沒有設上限這個叫無限期審查人士同意權啊不會啊這一次大法官事先出來了連對我們的行政權呵護被制啊\n\n40\n00:15:57,998 --> 00:16:25,655\n對我們的行政權呵護備制保護到了極點的憲法法庭都認為這個條文都沒有違憲但讓我覺得比較心痛的是什麼比較心痛的是我們未來在審查人事同意權的時候我本來希望在台灣審大法官的時候可以看到像美國參議院在審聯邦最高法院法官被提名那種莊嚴的程序\n\n41\n00:16:27,854 --> 00:16:41,772\n這個是Jackson大法官當初在參議院人事同意權審查的時候他在回答問題以前他第一個做什麼事啊手舉起來宣示啊我所說的全部都是真實的我不會說謊\n\n42\n00:16:43,663 --> 00:16:57,682\n但這個宣誓的要求也被我們偉大的憲法法庭的判決宣告違憲在中華民國憲法法學當中要求被提名人宣誓\n\n43\n00:16:58,834 --> 00:17:14,929\n他在國會裡面審查的過程當中講的都是真的要不然要接受法律處罰否則啊就是危險主席站起來啦最後這一個問題啊來請教周秘書長贊不贊成這個憲法法庭這樣的看法\n\n44\n00:17:16,938 --> 00:17:37,327\n很抱歉,這個本身如果是配開秘書長的角度我的說明是認為這個比較法庭裡面大概可能過大的對於立法權的一個線索\n\n45\n00:17:38,708 --> 00:17:55,499\n沒有做秘書長我不要害你啦因為你只是秘書長嘛今天我很怕因為你在國會的殿堂裡面說了這樣一個大實話接下來成為被攻擊的標的那不管怎麼樣在過去的立法過程當中你遭受了很多委屈\n\n46\n00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:56,340\n謝謝兩位秘書長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10393\t17898\t謝謝主席有請周秘書長還有檢察院李秘書長請周秘書長、李秘書長兩位時間的關係不亦問候對於這一次憲法法庭的判決當然在社會上面有非常多不一樣的評價\n42782\t69662\t民進黨的總召柯建民說這是一個偉大的憲法判決另外一位我個人是比較敬重真正長期在研究有關於國會改革我們民進黨非常重要的前輩林卓水他說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權林卓水說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權讓\n71824\t98266\t台灣的立法院離正常西方民主國家的體制越來越遠讓台灣國會體制成為獨一無二的民主怪胎我兩面俱成兩種不一樣的看法通通都有我想要比較具體的來看我們在看有關於國會改革過去\n99229\t117551\t民進黨的前輩啊他主張的是什麼是沒有聽證沒有調查立法院就缺了牙的老虎那這個比較像是形容詞啊因為內容比較不具體那我們再往下看那林佳龍是直接說什麼他說啊說謊\n121039\t136663\t更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證實或虛偽陳述復起刑法上、政治上面的責任所以那個時候才會民進黨的智庫、台灣智庫編一個冊子叫做請對國會說實話請對國會說實話\n141864\t168403\t當然問題是現在按照我們憲法法庭我們的大法官所接觸的憲政價值其實不用對國會說實話因為即使在國會上面說謊即使在國會上面說謊也不會有任何的法律責任他說要負的只有負政治責任沒有法律責任然後我們進一步的來看\n169304\t193950\t比較精準的來看一下我們憲法法庭的判決理由上面是怎麼寫的他在政府人員應邀出席立法院各種委員會說明陳述意見這是責任政治行政院要對立法院負責的憲法要求這是政治責任沒有法律責任所以這不可以有法律責任的性質\n194997\t216844\t特別是在針對有關於刑法141條之一當初141條之一有很多法界的先進甚至是民進黨、行政院、總統那邊的訴訟代理人的代表說什麼欠缺法律明確性什麼叫虛偽陳述\n218826\t229512\t什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項法條規範的法律構成要件不明確所以違憲但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題認為那根本都不是問題因為他直接講什麼他沒有去指摘一事一條之一是違反構成要件明確性沒有\n247787\t265179\t沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋啊也沒有說舊情所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋啊因為現行法都有了嘛他直接釜底抽薪說什麼啊他說公務委員虛偽陳述行政首長政府委員在立法院說謊這個是政治責任無赦啊法律責任來我先請教一下我們的周秘書長\n273735\t286420\t在這樣子的情況下在立法院在立法院裡面說謊我們只要可以行事責任就為限還有任何透過修法補救的可能性嗎?\n291354\t317734\t如果按照大法官有錢解釋那就沒辦法就沒辦法嘛因為我不管怎麼說我們大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以可以行事責任如果可以行事責任就是違憲那我就完全看不懂啊而中華民國的憲法法學啊非常的特殊啊\n319363\t344194\t不管在美國﹐在法國﹐在德國﹐在日本虛偽陳述﹐科與刑事責任在我們具有中華民國憲法法學的大法官眼中啊通通都是違憲的那已經不是接下來可不可以修法補救的問題啦是這一腳踩下去了以後根本沒有任何的回頭路當然啦\n345239\t360156\t如果這一次大法官可以做這樣子的解釋有人說是修正有人說是掏空有人說是補充有人說是變更四至五八五那個留待接下來的憲法學者自己慢慢的去詮釋\n361357\t381086\t但是只是看未來這號判決是不是未來新的憲法法庭在未來的時候從法的續照憲政價值的延伸是不是有繼續變更的可能性但我現在要問的比較直接的問題第一個在這一次的立法的程序上面\n382006\t401084\t我知道秘書長遭受到了非常多的誣衊跟指摘非常多的誣衊跟指摘甚至有立法委員對於你允許舉手投票這件事情直接嗆聲說要把你趕下台那我覺得某個程度上面秘書長辛苦了\n406417\t433837\t在這整個過程當中承受了很多不需要承受的事情甚至還遭到暴力攻擊因為對你暴力攻擊的立法委員跟你道歉沒有在委員會裡面他有特別稍微做一個說明有道歉嗎只能就是說只能在這邊跟委員報告他有特別一個說明他有說明嗎\n437077\t464448\t連道歉基本的態度都沒有展現出來對議事人員發動暴力攻擊所以嘛實質討論的時間極其有限異常常常處於一片混亂這個是這次憲法法庭對於說立法程序他說合憲但有瑕疵但這個瑕疵到底是誰造成的我相信全國民眾心裡有一把尺\n466097\t484647\t議場常常處於影片混亂為什麼會混亂暴力攻擊嘛要不然我們的議場怎麼會變成這個樣子進一步啊具體來看我看了以後我其實非常的驚訝因為大法官宣告違憲的條文啊不是只有這次修的欸\n485799\t510040\t他已經貫穿到啊2008年修的條文啊都宣告違憲了我為什麼說他貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲來看一下立法院職權行使法15條之二第一項立法院得經全體立法委員四分之以上提議院會決議後由程序委員會排定議程這個條文是這一次修正的嗎\n512801\t535997\t報告委員因為這個是在97年才會加這一張的啦2008年嘛對那這個是97年5月9號在第7屆修的但是這個條文裡面因為這一次的第15條之二的第一項已經變成違憲了所以幾乎現在立法委員是沒有提案的權利所以我們現在\n537478\t543908\t即使經過全體立法委員四分之一的提議院會決議由程序委員會排定一層邀請總統來是違憲的嘛是吧\n549954\t570967\t這個是2008年的時候修法的內容我們這次憲法法庭宣告違憲的範圍非常的廣把以前2008年的時候賴清德曾經參與過的修法他的表示贊成的修法通通宣告違憲讓台灣正式走入一個得到40%選票的總統可以當超級大總統的超級大總統制\n577861\t585093\t他腦袋裡面在想的不是過去民進黨在野的時候大家腦袋在想的事情\n586514\t615114\t當行政權獨大國會沒有辦法有效監督制衡的時候怎麼強化國會的調查權跟聽證權甚至離譜到什麼程度啊那個不是只有把以前的條文以前的規範2008年的規定都宣告違憲了來我們直接再看啊立法院職權行使法25條第三項備質詢人沒有經過院會或各委員會的同意不得缺席啊連這個都宣告違憲啊\n616844\t636726\t這個部分秘書長你有沒有掌握我們的資料整理裡面可以看到第8頁那你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長啊我為什麼說你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長來看一下韓國瑜院長在9月28號院會宣布的\n637711\t658610\t他說來立法院這一邊備詢的時候請行政院院長、副院長、各部會首長要親自出席備質詢除非有特別重要的事情以外不要請假立法院前有韓文通知行政院轉告各部會首長要遵照辦理\n659861\t684902\t那你如果按照這次憲法法庭的判決行政官員不來行政官員不來不請假沒有得到同意立法院也沒辦法幹嘛那我們立法院發給行政院這個韓文是不是有違憲啊來請教秘書長這一次我們大概裡面是按照26條裡面衍生的意識力\n686363\t709500\t對 但是他已經講來來來看一下憲法法庭判決的理由他說什麼立法院沒有凌駕行政院之上就行政院院長等行政首長請假不出席立法院院會的情況立法院不可以自我授權為同意或不同意的權限啦簡單來講是什麼他愛來不來不用經過立法院同意啦那既然不用經過立法院同意\n715143\t716944\t我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去啊他愛來不來都可以啊他上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎來我們繼續往下看\n729790\t756942\t2016年4月14號內政委員會叫那個時候那個時候選舉結束了啦有新的國會但是舊的看守內閣新的國會因為2016年2月1號以後民進黨就過半了嘛但是那個時候還是馬政府在看守內閣的狀態那個時候行政院秘書長沒有向內政委員會報告並列席備詢\n759099\t768697\t所以那個時候在內政委員會提案譴責在我們憲法法庭的憲政秩序憲政價值之下我們還可以提案譴責嗎請教秘書長\n776018\t794648\t因為剛才黃委員的整個的一個提問過程當中因為有涉及到藐視國會已經沒有了啦沒有啦現在沒有啦那個是刑事處罰他不行嘛現在我只有回到請假不請假的問題嘛我們院會委員會\n796573\t822221\t院會委員會說要經過我們院會委員會的同意大法官說這是國會擴權啊不可以做這樣子的規定啊那不可以做這樣子的規定我們一定要往下延伸說我們憲法法庭這麼偉大的意旨到底要怎麼貫徹在立法院的運作當中嗎那我看了以後我就覺得很困惑啊那以後不來我的提案譴責啊這個會不會違憲啊請教秘書長高健\n828603\t839695\t譴責案是不會嘛所以我們立法院以後可以打嘴砲可以打嘴砲譴責不用違憲嘛但是有牙齒的東西可能就會違憲2016年4月14號這個例子還可以進一步往前延伸\n849008\t858975\t因為那個時候民進黨的委員除了提案譴責以外他還要求什麼啊要移送監察院啊移送監察院有沒有違憲啊如果以條文來看目前他的解釋是違憲不能送了那我就覺得很奇怪啦因為移送監察院的條文啊這個是1999年就通過的條文欸\n875507\t901270\t這次修法針對立法院移送給監察院跟他調閱東西不給移送給監察院的不是這次修法的是1999年修法的東西我們這次修法法庭是貫穿力非常的強烈不是只有在審查這次修法的內容1999年移送給監察院的\n902301\t924939\t他說這個是憲政爭議上非監察院行使糾正權的範圍而且立法院沒有所謂的移送權那麼以後要注意立法院不要隨便移送東西給監察院因為我們連移送權都沒有監察院愛辦不辦 要怎麼辦監察院自己去討論\n926604\t945894\t再往下看行政院當初提附議理由的時候我說上面充斥的假訊息其中一個有重要的是什麼他說我們認定最低審查是一個月沒有設上限這個叫無限期審查人士同意權啊不會啊這一次大法官事先出來了連對我們的行政權呵護被制啊\n957998\t985655\t對我們的行政權呵護備制保護到了極點的憲法法庭都認為這個條文都沒有違憲但讓我覺得比較心痛的是什麼比較心痛的是我們未來在審查人事同意權的時候我本來希望在台灣審大法官的時候可以看到像美國參議院在審聯邦最高法院法官被提名那種莊嚴的程序\n987854\t1001772\t這個是Jackson大法官當初在參議院人事同意權審查的時候他在回答問題以前他第一個做什麼事啊手舉起來宣示啊我所說的全部都是真實的我不會說謊\n1003663\t1017682\t但這個宣誓的要求也被我們偉大的憲法法庭的判決宣告違憲在中華民國憲法法學當中要求被提名人宣誓\n1018834\t1034929\t他在國會裡面審查的過程當中講的都是真的要不然要接受法律處罰否則啊就是危險主席站起來啦最後這一個問題啊來請教周秘書長贊不贊成這個憲法法庭這樣的看法\n1036938\t1057327\t很抱歉,這個本身如果是配開秘書長的角度我的說明是認為這個比較法庭裡面大概可能過大的對於立法權的一個線索\n1058708\t1075499\t沒有 做秘書長我不要害你啦因為你只是秘書長嘛今天我很怕因為你在國會的殿堂裡面說了這樣一個大實話接下來成為被攻擊的標的那不管怎麼樣在過去的立法過程當中你遭受了很多委屈\n1076300\t1076340\t謝謝兩位秘書長\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請周秘書長還有檢察院李秘書長請周秘書長、李秘書長兩位時間的關係不亦問候對於這一次憲法法庭的判決當然在社會上面有非常多不一樣的評價\n民進黨的總召柯建民說這是一個偉大的憲法判決另外一位我個人是比較敬重真正長期在研究有關於國會改革我們民進黨非常重要的前輩林卓水他說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權林卓水說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權讓\n台灣的立法院離正常西方民主國家的體制越來越遠讓台灣國會體制成為獨一無二的民主怪胎我兩面俱成兩種不一樣的看法通通都有我想要比較具體的來看我們在看有關於國會改革過去\n民進黨的前輩啊他主張的是什麼是沒有聽證沒有調查立法院就缺了牙的老虎那這個比較像是形容詞啊因為內容比較不具體那我們再往下看那林佳龍是直接說什麼他說啊說謊\n更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證實或虛偽陳述復起刑法上、政治上面的責任所以那個時候才會民進黨的智庫、台灣智庫編一個冊子叫做請對國會說實話請對國會說實話\n當然問題是現在按照我們憲法法庭我們的大法官所接觸的憲政價值其實不用對國會說實話因為即使在國會上面說謊即使在國會上面說謊也不會有任何的法律責任他說要負的只有負政治責任沒有法律責任然後我們進一步的來看\n比較精準的來看一下我們憲法法庭的判決理由上面是怎麼寫的他在政府人員應邀出席立法院各種委員會說明陳述意見這是責任政治行政院要對立法院負責的憲法要求這是政治責任沒有法律責任所以這不可以有法律責任的性質\n特別是在針對有關於刑法141條之一當初141條之一有很多法界的先進甚至是民進黨、行政院、總統那邊的訴訟代理人的代表說什麼欠缺法律明確性什麼叫虛偽陳述\n什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項法條規範的法律構成要件不明確所以違憲但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題認為那根本都不是問題因為他直接講什麼他沒有去指摘一事一條之一是違反構成要件明確性沒有\n沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋啊也沒有說舊情所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋啊因為現行法都有了嘛他直接釜底抽薪說什麼啊他說公務委員虛偽陳述行政首長政府委員在立法院說謊這個是政治責任無赦啊法律責任來我先請教一下我們的周秘書長\n在這樣子的情況下在立法院在立法院裡面說謊我們只要可以行事責任就為限還有任何透過修法補救的可能性嗎?\n如果按照大法官有錢解釋那就沒辦法就沒辦法嘛因為我不管怎麼說我們大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以可以行事責任如果可以行事責任就是違憲那我就完全看不懂啊而中華民國的憲法法學啊非常的特殊啊\n不管在美國﹐在法國﹐在德國﹐在日本虛偽陳述﹐科與刑事責任在我們具有中華民國憲法法學的大法官眼中啊通通都是違憲的那已經不是接下來可不可以修法補救的問題啦是這一腳踩下去了以後根本沒有任何的回頭路當然啦\n如果這一次大法官可以做這樣子的解釋有人說是修正有人說是掏空有人說是補充有人說是變更四至五八五那個留待接下來的憲法學者自己慢慢的去詮釋\n但是只是看未來這號判決是不是未來新的憲法法庭在未來的時候從法的續照憲政價值的延伸是不是有繼續變更的可能性但我現在要問的比較直接的問題第一個在這一次的立法的程序上面\n我知道秘書長遭受到了非常多的誣衊跟指摘非常多的誣衊跟指摘甚至有立法委員對於你允許舉手投票這件事情直接嗆聲說要把你趕下台那我覺得某個程度上面秘書長辛苦了\n在這整個過程當中承受了很多不需要承受的事情甚至還遭到暴力攻擊因為對你暴力攻擊的立法委員跟你道歉沒有在委員會裡面他有特別稍微做一個說明有道歉嗎只能就是說只能在這邊跟委員報告他有特別一個說明他有說明嗎\n連道歉基本的態度都沒有展現出來對議事人員發動暴力攻擊所以嘛實質討論的時間極其有限異常常常處於一片混亂這個是這次憲法法庭對於說立法程序他說合憲但有瑕疵但這個瑕疵到底是誰造成的我相信全國民眾心裡有一把尺\n議場常常處於影片混亂為什麼會混亂暴力攻擊嘛要不然我們的議場怎麼會變成這個樣子進一步啊具體來看我看了以後我其實非常的驚訝因為大法官宣告違憲的條文啊不是只有這次修的欸\n他已經貫穿到啊2008年修的條文啊都宣告違憲了我為什麼說他貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲來看一下立法院職權行使法15條之二第一項立法院得經全體立法委員四分之以上提議院會決議後由程序委員會排定議程這個條文是這一次修正的嗎\n報告委員因為這個是在97年才會加這一張的啦2008年嘛對那這個是97年5月9號在第7屆修的但是這個條文裡面因為這一次的第15條之二的第一項已經變成違憲了所以幾乎現在立法委員是沒有提案的權利所以我們現在\n即使經過全體立法委員四分之一的提議院會決議由程序委員會排定一層邀請總統來是違憲的嘛是吧\n這個是2008年的時候修法的內容我們這次憲法法庭宣告違憲的範圍非常的廣把以前2008年的時候賴清德曾經參與過的修法他的表示贊成的修法通通宣告違憲讓台灣正式走入一個得到40%選票的總統可以當超級大總統的超級大總統制\n他腦袋裡面在想的不是過去民進黨在野的時候大家腦袋在想的事情\n當行政權獨大國會沒有辦法有效監督制衡的時候怎麼強化國會的調查權跟聽證權甚至離譜到什麼程度啊那個不是只有把以前的條文以前的規範2008年的規定都宣告違憲了來我們直接再看啊立法院職權行使法25條第三項備質詢人沒有經過院會或各委員會的同意不得缺席啊連這個都宣告違憲啊\n這個部分秘書長你有沒有掌握我們的資料整理裡面可以看到第8頁那你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長啊我為什麼說你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長來看一下韓國瑜院長在9月28號院會宣布的\n他說來立法院這一邊備詢的時候請行政院院長、副院長、各部會首長要親自出席備質詢除非有特別重要的事情以外不要請假立法院前有韓文通知行政院轉告各部會首長要遵照辦理\n那你如果按照這次憲法法庭的判決行政官員不來行政官員不來不請假沒有得到同意立法院也沒辦法幹嘛那我們立法院發給行政院這個韓文是不是有違憲啊來請教秘書長這一次我們大概裡面是按照26條裡面衍生的意識力\n對 但是他已經講來來來看一下憲法法庭判決的理由他說什麼立法院沒有凌駕行政院之上就行政院院長等行政首長請假不出席立法院院會的情況立法院不可以自我授權為同意或不同意的權限啦簡單來講是什麼他愛來不來不用經過立法院同意啦那既然不用經過立法院同意\n我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去啊他愛來不來都可以啊他上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎來我們繼續往下看\n2016年4月14號內政委員會叫那個時候那個時候選舉結束了啦有新的國會但是舊的看守內閣新的國會因為2016年2月1號以後民進黨就過半了嘛但是那個時候還是馬政府在看守內閣的狀態那個時候行政院秘書長沒有向內政委員會報告並列席備詢\n所以那個時候在內政委員會提案譴責在我們憲法法庭的憲政秩序憲政價值之下我們還可以提案譴責嗎請教秘書長\n因為剛才黃委員的整個的一個提問過程當中因為有涉及到藐視國會已經沒有了啦沒有啦現在沒有啦那個是刑事處罰他不行嘛現在我只有回到請假不請假的問題嘛我們院會委員會\n院會委員會說要經過我們院會委員會的同意大法官說這是國會擴權啊不可以做這樣子的規定啊那不可以做這樣子的規定我們一定要往下延伸說我們憲法法庭這麼偉大的意旨到底要怎麼貫徹在立法院的運作當中嗎那我看了以後我就覺得很困惑啊那以後不來我的提案譴責啊這個會不會違憲啊請教秘書長高健\n譴責案是不會嘛所以我們立法院以後可以打嘴砲可以打嘴砲譴責不用違憲嘛但是有牙齒的東西可能就會違憲2016年4月14號這個例子還可以進一步往前延伸\n因為那個時候民進黨的委員除了提案譴責以外他還要求什麼啊要移送監察院啊移送監察院有沒有違憲啊如果以條文來看目前他的解釋是違憲不能送了那我就覺得很奇怪啦因為移送監察院的條文啊這個是1999年就通過的條文欸\n這次修法針對立法院移送給監察院跟他調閱東西不給移送給監察院的不是這次修法的是1999年修法的東西我們這次修法法庭是貫穿力非常的強烈不是只有在審查這次修法的內容1999年移送給監察院的\n他說這個是憲政爭議上非監察院行使糾正權的範圍而且立法院沒有所謂的移送權那麼以後要注意立法院不要隨便移送東西給監察院因為我們連移送權都沒有監察院愛辦不辦 要怎麼辦監察院自己去討論\n再往下看行政院當初提附議理由的時候我說上面充斥的假訊息其中一個有重要的是什麼他說我們認定最低審查是一個月沒有設上限這個叫無限期審查人士同意權啊不會啊這一次大法官事先出來了連對我們的行政權呵護被制啊\n對我們的行政權呵護備制保護到了極點的憲法法庭都認為這個條文都沒有違憲但讓我覺得比較心痛的是什麼比較心痛的是我們未來在審查人事同意權的時候我本來希望在台灣審大法官的時候可以看到像美國參議院在審聯邦最高法院法官被提名那種莊嚴的程序\n這個是Jackson大法官當初在參議院人事同意權審查的時候他在回答問題以前他第一個做什麼事啊手舉起來宣示啊我所說的全部都是真實的我不會說謊\n但這個宣誓的要求也被我們偉大的憲法法庭的判決宣告違憲在中華民國憲法法學當中要求被提名人宣誓\n他在國會裡面審查的過程當中講的都是真的要不然要接受法律處罰否則啊就是危險主席站起來啦最後這一個問題啊來請教周秘書長贊不贊成這個憲法法庭這樣的看法\n很抱歉,這個本身如果是配開秘書長的角度我的說明是認為這個比較法庭裡面大概可能過大的對於立法權的一個線索\n沒有 做秘書長我不要害你啦因為你只是秘書長嘛今天我很怕因為你在國會的殿堂裡面說了這樣一個大實話接下來成為被攻擊的標的那不管怎麼樣在過去的立法過程當中你遭受了很多委屈\n謝謝兩位秘書長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.393 --> 00:17.898\n謝謝主席有請周秘書長還有檢察院李秘書長請周秘書長、李秘書長兩位時間的關係不亦問候對於這一次憲法法庭的判決當然在社會上面有非常多不一樣的評價\n\n00:42.782 --> 01:09.662\n民進黨的總召柯建民說這是一個偉大的憲法判決另外一位我個人是比較敬重真正長期在研究有關於國會改革我們民進黨非常重要的前輩林卓水他說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權林卓水說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權讓\n\n01:11.824 --> 01:38.266\n台灣的立法院離正常西方民主國家的體制越來越遠讓台灣國會體制成為獨一無二的民主怪胎我兩面俱成兩種不一樣的看法通通都有我想要比較具體的來看我們在看有關於國會改革過去\n\n01:39.229 --> 01:57.551\n民進黨的前輩啊他主張的是什麼是沒有聽證沒有調查立法院就缺了牙的老虎那這個比較像是形容詞啊因為內容比較不具體那我們再往下看那林佳龍是直接說什麼他說啊說謊\n\n02:01.039 --> 02:16.663\n更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證實或虛偽陳述復起刑法上、政治上面的責任所以那個時候才會民進黨的智庫、台灣智庫編一個冊子叫做請對國會說實話請對國會說實話\n\n02:21.864 --> 02:48.403\n當然問題是現在按照我們憲法法庭我們的大法官所接觸的憲政價值其實不用對國會說實話因為即使在國會上面說謊即使在國會上面說謊也不會有任何的法律責任他說要負的只有負政治責任沒有法律責任然後我們進一步的來看\n\n02:49.304 --> 03:13.950\n比較精準的來看一下我們憲法法庭的判決理由上面是怎麼寫的他在政府人員應邀出席立法院各種委員會說明陳述意見這是責任政治行政院要對立法院負責的憲法要求這是政治責任沒有法律責任所以這不可以有法律責任的性質\n\n03:14.997 --> 03:36.844\n特別是在針對有關於刑法141條之一當初141條之一有很多法界的先進甚至是民進黨、行政院、總統那邊的訴訟代理人的代表說什麼欠缺法律明確性什麼叫虛偽陳述\n\n03:38.826 --> 03:49.512\n什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項法條規範的法律構成要件不明確所以違憲但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題認為那根本都不是問題因為他直接講什麼他沒有去指摘一事一條之一是違反構成要件明確性沒有\n\n04:07.787 --> 04:25.179\n沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋啊也沒有說舊情所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋啊因為現行法都有了嘛他直接釜底抽薪說什麼啊他說公務委員虛偽陳述行政首長政府委員在立法院說謊這個是政治責任無赦啊法律責任來我先請教一下我們的周秘書長\n\n04:33.735 --> 04:46.420\n在這樣子的情況下在立法院在立法院裡面說謊我們只要可以行事責任就為限還有任何透過修法補救的可能性嗎?\n\n04:51.354 --> 05:17.734\n如果按照大法官有錢解釋那就沒辦法就沒辦法嘛因為我不管怎麼說我們大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以可以行事責任如果可以行事責任就是違憲那我就完全看不懂啊而中華民國的憲法法學啊非常的特殊啊\n\n05:19.363 --> 05:44.194\n不管在美國﹐在法國﹐在德國﹐在日本虛偽陳述﹐科與刑事責任在我們具有中華民國憲法法學的大法官眼中啊通通都是違憲的那已經不是接下來可不可以修法補救的問題啦是這一腳踩下去了以後根本沒有任何的回頭路當然啦\n\n05:45.239 --> 06:00.156\n如果這一次大法官可以做這樣子的解釋有人說是修正有人說是掏空有人說是補充有人說是變更四至五八五那個留待接下來的憲法學者自己慢慢的去詮釋\n\n06:01.357 --> 06:21.086\n但是只是看未來這號判決是不是未來新的憲法法庭在未來的時候從法的續照憲政價值的延伸是不是有繼續變更的可能性但我現在要問的比較直接的問題第一個在這一次的立法的程序上面\n\n06:22.006 --> 06:41.084\n我知道秘書長遭受到了非常多的誣衊跟指摘非常多的誣衊跟指摘甚至有立法委員對於你允許舉手投票這件事情直接嗆聲說要把你趕下台那我覺得某個程度上面秘書長辛苦了\n\n06:46.417 --> 07:13.837\n在這整個過程當中承受了很多不需要承受的事情甚至還遭到暴力攻擊因為對你暴力攻擊的立法委員跟你道歉沒有在委員會裡面他有特別稍微做一個說明有道歉嗎只能就是說只能在這邊跟委員報告他有特別一個說明他有說明嗎\n\n07:17.077 --> 07:44.448\n連道歉基本的態度都沒有展現出來對議事人員發動暴力攻擊所以嘛實質討論的時間極其有限異常常常處於一片混亂這個是這次憲法法庭對於說立法程序他說合憲但有瑕疵但這個瑕疵到底是誰造成的我相信全國民眾心裡有一把尺\n\n07:46.097 --> 08:04.647\n議場常常處於影片混亂為什麼會混亂暴力攻擊嘛要不然我們的議場怎麼會變成這個樣子進一步啊具體來看我看了以後我其實非常的驚訝因為大法官宣告違憲的條文啊不是只有這次修的欸\n\n08:05.799 --> 08:30.040\n他已經貫穿到啊2008年修的條文啊都宣告違憲了我為什麼說他貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲來看一下立法院職權行使法15條之二第一項立法院得經全體立法委員四分之以上提議院會決議後由程序委員會排定議程這個條文是這一次修正的嗎\n\n08:32.801 --> 08:55.997\n報告委員因為這個是在97年才會加這一張的啦2008年嘛對那這個是97年5月9號在第7屆修的但是這個條文裡面因為這一次的第15條之二的第一項已經變成違憲了所以幾乎現在立法委員是沒有提案的權利所以我們現在\n\n08:57.478 --> 09:03.908\n即使經過全體立法委員四分之一的提議院會決議由程序委員會排定一層邀請總統來是違憲的嘛是吧\n\n09:09.954 --> 09:30.967\n這個是2008年的時候修法的內容我們這次憲法法庭宣告違憲的範圍非常的廣把以前2008年的時候賴清德曾經參與過的修法他的表示贊成的修法通通宣告違憲讓台灣正式走入一個得到40%選票的總統可以當超級大總統的超級大總統制\n\n09:37.861 --> 09:45.093\n他腦袋裡面在想的不是過去民進黨在野的時候大家腦袋在想的事情\n\n09:46.514 --> 10:15.114\n當行政權獨大國會沒有辦法有效監督制衡的時候怎麼強化國會的調查權跟聽證權甚至離譜到什麼程度啊那個不是只有把以前的條文以前的規範2008年的規定都宣告違憲了來我們直接再看啊立法院職權行使法25條第三項備質詢人沒有經過院會或各委員會的同意不得缺席啊連這個都宣告違憲啊\n\n10:16.844 --> 10:36.726\n這個部分秘書長你有沒有掌握我們的資料整理裡面可以看到第8頁那你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長啊我為什麼說你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長來看一下韓國瑜院長在9月28號院會宣布的\n\n10:37.711 --> 10:58.610\n他說來立法院這一邊備詢的時候請行政院院長、副院長、各部會首長要親自出席備質詢除非有特別重要的事情以外不要請假立法院前有韓文通知行政院轉告各部會首長要遵照辦理\n\n10:59.861 --> 11:24.902\n那你如果按照這次憲法法庭的判決行政官員不來行政官員不來不請假沒有得到同意立法院也沒辦法幹嘛那我們立法院發給行政院這個韓文是不是有違憲啊來請教秘書長這一次我們大概裡面是按照26條裡面衍生的意識力\n\n11:26.363 --> 11:49.500\n對但是他已經講來來來看一下憲法法庭判決的理由他說什麼立法院沒有凌駕行政院之上就行政院院長等行政首長請假不出席立法院院會的情況立法院不可以自我授權為同意或不同意的權限啦簡單來講是什麼他愛來不來不用經過立法院同意啦那既然不用經過立法院同意\n\n11:55.143 --> 11:56.944\n我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去啊他愛來不來都可以啊他上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎來我們繼續往下看\n\n12:09.790 --> 12:36.942\n2016年4月14號內政委員會叫那個時候那個時候選舉結束了啦有新的國會但是舊的看守內閣新的國會因為2016年2月1號以後民進黨就過半了嘛但是那個時候還是馬政府在看守內閣的狀態那個時候行政院秘書長沒有向內政委員會報告並列席備詢\n\n12:39.099 --> 12:48.697\n所以那個時候在內政委員會提案譴責在我們憲法法庭的憲政秩序憲政價值之下我們還可以提案譴責嗎請教秘書長\n\n12:56.018 --> 13:14.648\n因為剛才黃委員的整個的一個提問過程當中因為有涉及到藐視國會已經沒有了啦沒有啦現在沒有啦那個是刑事處罰他不行嘛現在我只有回到請假不請假的問題嘛我們院會委員會\n\n13:16.573 --> 13:42.221\n院會委員會說要經過我們院會委員會的同意大法官說這是國會擴權啊不可以做這樣子的規定啊那不可以做這樣子的規定我們一定要往下延伸說我們憲法法庭這麼偉大的意旨到底要怎麼貫徹在立法院的運作當中嗎那我看了以後我就覺得很困惑啊那以後不來我的提案譴責啊這個會不會違憲啊請教秘書長高健\n\n13:48.603 --> 13:59.695\n譴責案是不會嘛所以我們立法院以後可以打嘴砲可以打嘴砲譴責不用違憲嘛但是有牙齒的東西可能就會違憲2016年4月14號這個例子還可以進一步往前延伸\n\n14:09.008 --> 14:18.975\n因為那個時候民進黨的委員除了提案譴責以外他還要求什麼啊要移送監察院啊移送監察院有沒有違憲啊如果以條文來看目前他的解釋是違憲不能送了那我就覺得很奇怪啦因為移送監察院的條文啊這個是1999年就通過的條文欸\n\n14:35.507 --> 15:01.270\n這次修法針對立法院移送給監察院跟他調閱東西不給移送給監察院的不是這次修法的是1999年修法的東西我們這次修法法庭是貫穿力非常的強烈不是只有在審查這次修法的內容1999年移送給監察院的\n\n15:02.301 --> 15:24.939\n他說這個是憲政爭議上非監察院行使糾正權的範圍而且立法院沒有所謂的移送權那麼以後要注意立法院不要隨便移送東西給監察院因為我們連移送權都沒有監察院愛辦不辦要怎麼辦監察院自己去討論\n\n15:26.604 --> 15:45.894\n再往下看行政院當初提附議理由的時候我說上面充斥的假訊息其中一個有重要的是什麼他說我們認定最低審查是一個月沒有設上限這個叫無限期審查人士同意權啊不會啊這一次大法官事先出來了連對我們的行政權呵護被制啊\n\n15:57.998 --> 16:25.655\n對我們的行政權呵護備制保護到了極點的憲法法庭都認為這個條文都沒有違憲但讓我覺得比較心痛的是什麼比較心痛的是我們未來在審查人事同意權的時候我本來希望在台灣審大法官的時候可以看到像美國參議院在審聯邦最高法院法官被提名那種莊嚴的程序\n\n16:27.854 --> 16:41.772\n這個是Jackson大法官當初在參議院人事同意權審查的時候他在回答問題以前他第一個做什麼事啊手舉起來宣示啊我所說的全部都是真實的我不會說謊\n\n16:43.663 --> 16:57.682\n但這個宣誓的要求也被我們偉大的憲法法庭的判決宣告違憲在中華民國憲法法學當中要求被提名人宣誓\n\n16:58.834 --> 17:14.929\n他在國會裡面審查的過程當中講的都是真的要不然要接受法律處罰否則啊就是危險主席站起來啦最後這一個問題啊來請教周秘書長贊不贊成這個憲法法庭這樣的看法\n\n17:16.938 --> 17:37.327\n很抱歉,這個本身如果是配開秘書長的角度我的說明是認為這個比較法庭裡面大概可能過大的對於立法權的一個線索\n\n17:38.708 --> 17:55.499\n沒有做秘書長我不要害你啦因為你只是秘書長嘛今天我很怕因為你在國會的殿堂裡面說了這樣一個大實話接下來成為被攻擊的標的那不管怎麼樣在過去的立法過程當中你遭受了很多委屈\n\n17:56.300 --> 17:56.340\n謝謝兩位秘書長\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.393,"end":17.898,"text":"謝謝主席有請周秘書長還有檢察院李秘書長請周秘書長、李秘書長兩位時間的關係不亦問候對於這一次憲法法庭的判決當然在社會上面有非常多不一樣的評價"},{"start":42.782,"end":69.662,"text":"民進黨的總召柯建民說這是一個偉大的憲法判決另外一位我個人是比較敬重真正長期在研究有關於國會改革我們民進黨非常重要的前輩林卓水他說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權林卓水說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權讓"},{"start":71.824,"end":98.266,"text":"台灣的立法院離正常西方民主國家的體制越來越遠讓台灣國會體制成為獨一無二的民主怪胎我兩面俱成兩種不一樣的看法通通都有我想要比較具體的來看我們在看有關於國會改革過去"},{"start":99.229,"end":117.551,"text":"民進黨的前輩啊他主張的是什麼是沒有聽證沒有調查立法院就缺了牙的老虎那這個比較像是形容詞啊因為內容比較不具體那我們再往下看那林佳龍是直接說什麼他說啊說謊"},{"start":121.039,"end":136.663,"text":"更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證實或虛偽陳述復起刑法上、政治上面的責任所以那個時候才會民進黨的智庫、台灣智庫編一個冊子叫做請對國會說實話請對國會說實話"},{"start":141.864,"end":168.403,"text":"當然問題是現在按照我們憲法法庭我們的大法官所接觸的憲政價值其實不用對國會說實話因為即使在國會上面說謊即使在國會上面說謊也不會有任何的法律責任他說要負的只有負政治責任沒有法律責任然後我們進一步的來看"},{"start":169.304,"end":193.95,"text":"比較精準的來看一下我們憲法法庭的判決理由上面是怎麼寫的他在政府人員應邀出席立法院各種委員會說明陳述意見這是責任政治行政院要對立法院負責的憲法要求這是政治責任沒有法律責任所以這不可以有法律責任的性質"},{"start":194.997,"end":216.844,"text":"特別是在針對有關於刑法141條之一當初141條之一有很多法界的先進甚至是民進黨、行政院、總統那邊的訴訟代理人的代表說什麼欠缺法律明確性什麼叫虛偽陳述"},{"start":218.826,"end":229.512,"text":"什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項法條規範的法律構成要件不明確所以違憲但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題認為那根本都不是問題因為他直接講什麼他沒有去指摘一事一條之一是違反構成要件明確性沒有"},{"start":247.787,"end":265.179,"text":"沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋啊也沒有說舊情所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋啊因為現行法都有了嘛他直接釜底抽薪說什麼啊他說公務委員虛偽陳述行政首長政府委員在立法院說謊這個是政治責任無赦啊法律責任來我先請教一下我們的周秘書長"},{"start":273.735,"end":286.42,"text":"在這樣子的情況下在立法院在立法院裡面說謊我們只要可以行事責任就為限還有任何透過修法補救的可能性嗎?"},{"start":291.354,"end":317.734,"text":"如果按照大法官有錢解釋那就沒辦法就沒辦法嘛因為我不管怎麼說我們大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以可以行事責任如果可以行事責任就是違憲那我就完全看不懂啊而中華民國的憲法法學啊非常的特殊啊"},{"start":319.363,"end":344.194,"text":"不管在美國﹐在法國﹐在德國﹐在日本虛偽陳述﹐科與刑事責任在我們具有中華民國憲法法學的大法官眼中啊通通都是違憲的那已經不是接下來可不可以修法補救的問題啦是這一腳踩下去了以後根本沒有任何的回頭路當然啦"},{"start":345.239,"end":360.156,"text":"如果這一次大法官可以做這樣子的解釋有人說是修正有人說是掏空有人說是補充有人說是變更四至五八五那個留待接下來的憲法學者自己慢慢的去詮釋"},{"start":361.357,"end":381.086,"text":"但是只是看未來這號判決是不是未來新的憲法法庭在未來的時候從法的續照憲政價值的延伸是不是有繼續變更的可能性但我現在要問的比較直接的問題第一個在這一次的立法的程序上面"},{"start":382.006,"end":401.084,"text":"我知道秘書長遭受到了非常多的誣衊跟指摘非常多的誣衊跟指摘甚至有立法委員對於你允許舉手投票這件事情直接嗆聲說要把你趕下台那我覺得某個程度上面秘書長辛苦了"},{"start":406.417,"end":433.837,"text":"在這整個過程當中承受了很多不需要承受的事情甚至還遭到暴力攻擊因為對你暴力攻擊的立法委員跟你道歉沒有在委員會裡面他有特別稍微做一個說明有道歉嗎只能就是說只能在這邊跟委員報告他有特別一個說明他有說明嗎"},{"start":437.077,"end":464.448,"text":"連道歉基本的態度都沒有展現出來對議事人員發動暴力攻擊所以嘛實質討論的時間極其有限異常常常處於一片混亂這個是這次憲法法庭對於說立法程序他說合憲但有瑕疵但這個瑕疵到底是誰造成的我相信全國民眾心裡有一把尺"},{"start":466.097,"end":484.647,"text":"議場常常處於影片混亂為什麼會混亂暴力攻擊嘛要不然我們的議場怎麼會變成這個樣子進一步啊具體來看我看了以後我其實非常的驚訝因為大法官宣告違憲的條文啊不是只有這次修的欸"},{"start":485.799,"end":510.04,"text":"他已經貫穿到啊2008年修的條文啊都宣告違憲了我為什麼說他貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲來看一下立法院職權行使法15條之二第一項立法院得經全體立法委員四分之以上提議院會決議後由程序委員會排定議程這個條文是這一次修正的嗎"},{"start":512.801,"end":535.997,"text":"報告委員因為這個是在97年才會加這一張的啦2008年嘛對那這個是97年5月9號在第7屆修的但是這個條文裡面因為這一次的第15條之二的第一項已經變成違憲了所以幾乎現在立法委員是沒有提案的權利所以我們現在"},{"start":537.478,"end":543.908,"text":"即使經過全體立法委員四分之一的提議院會決議由程序委員會排定一層邀請總統來是違憲的嘛是吧"},{"start":549.954,"end":570.967,"text":"這個是2008年的時候修法的內容我們這次憲法法庭宣告違憲的範圍非常的廣把以前2008年的時候賴清德曾經參與過的修法他的表示贊成的修法通通宣告違憲讓台灣正式走入一個得到40%選票的總統可以當超級大總統的超級大總統制"},{"start":577.861,"end":585.093,"text":"他腦袋裡面在想的不是過去民進黨在野的時候大家腦袋在想的事情"},{"start":586.514,"end":615.114,"text":"當行政權獨大國會沒有辦法有效監督制衡的時候怎麼強化國會的調查權跟聽證權甚至離譜到什麼程度啊那個不是只有把以前的條文以前的規範2008年的規定都宣告違憲了來我們直接再看啊立法院職權行使法25條第三項備質詢人沒有經過院會或各委員會的同意不得缺席啊連這個都宣告違憲啊"},{"start":616.844,"end":636.726,"text":"這個部分秘書長你有沒有掌握我們的資料整理裡面可以看到第8頁那你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長啊我為什麼說你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長來看一下韓國瑜院長在9月28號院會宣布的"},{"start":637.711,"end":658.61,"text":"他說來立法院這一邊備詢的時候請行政院院長、副院長、各部會首長要親自出席備質詢除非有特別重要的事情以外不要請假立法院前有韓文通知行政院轉告各部會首長要遵照辦理"},{"start":659.861,"end":684.902,"text":"那你如果按照這次憲法法庭的判決行政官員不來行政官員不來不請假沒有得到同意立法院也沒辦法幹嘛那我們立法院發給行政院這個韓文是不是有違憲啊來請教秘書長這一次我們大概裡面是按照26條裡面衍生的意識力"},{"start":686.363,"end":709.5,"text":"對 但是他已經講來來來看一下憲法法庭判決的理由他說什麼立法院沒有凌駕行政院之上就行政院院長等行政首長請假不出席立法院院會的情況立法院不可以自我授權為同意或不同意的權限啦簡單來講是什麼他愛來不來不用經過立法院同意啦那既然不用經過立法院同意"},{"start":715.143,"end":716.944,"text":"我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去啊他愛來不來都可以啊他上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎來我們繼續往下看"},{"start":729.79,"end":756.942,"text":"2016年4月14號內政委員會叫那個時候那個時候選舉結束了啦有新的國會但是舊的看守內閣新的國會因為2016年2月1號以後民進黨就過半了嘛但是那個時候還是馬政府在看守內閣的狀態那個時候行政院秘書長沒有向內政委員會報告並列席備詢"},{"start":759.099,"end":768.697,"text":"所以那個時候在內政委員會提案譴責在我們憲法法庭的憲政秩序憲政價值之下我們還可以提案譴責嗎請教秘書長"},{"start":776.018,"end":794.648,"text":"因為剛才黃委員的整個的一個提問過程當中因為有涉及到藐視國會已經沒有了啦沒有啦現在沒有啦那個是刑事處罰他不行嘛現在我只有回到請假不請假的問題嘛我們院會委員會"},{"start":796.573,"end":822.221,"text":"院會委員會說要經過我們院會委員會的同意大法官說這是國會擴權啊不可以做這樣子的規定啊那不可以做這樣子的規定我們一定要往下延伸說我們憲法法庭這麼偉大的意旨到底要怎麼貫徹在立法院的運作當中嗎那我看了以後我就覺得很困惑啊那以後不來我的提案譴責啊這個會不會違憲啊請教秘書長高健"},{"start":828.603,"end":839.695,"text":"譴責案是不會嘛所以我們立法院以後可以打嘴砲可以打嘴砲譴責不用違憲嘛但是有牙齒的東西可能就會違憲2016年4月14號這個例子還可以進一步往前延伸"},{"start":849.008,"end":858.975,"text":"因為那個時候民進黨的委員除了提案譴責以外他還要求什麼啊要移送監察院啊移送監察院有沒有違憲啊如果以條文來看目前他的解釋是違憲不能送了那我就覺得很奇怪啦因為移送監察院的條文啊這個是1999年就通過的條文欸"},{"start":875.507,"end":901.27,"text":"這次修法針對立法院移送給監察院跟他調閱東西不給移送給監察院的不是這次修法的是1999年修法的東西我們這次修法法庭是貫穿力非常的強烈不是只有在審查這次修法的內容1999年移送給監察院的"},{"start":902.301,"end":924.939,"text":"他說這個是憲政爭議上非監察院行使糾正權的範圍而且立法院沒有所謂的移送權那麼以後要注意立法院不要隨便移送東西給監察院因為我們連移送權都沒有監察院愛辦不辦 要怎麼辦監察院自己去討論"},{"start":926.604,"end":945.894,"text":"再往下看行政院當初提附議理由的時候我說上面充斥的假訊息其中一個有重要的是什麼他說我們認定最低審查是一個月沒有設上限這個叫無限期審查人士同意權啊不會啊這一次大法官事先出來了連對我們的行政權呵護被制啊"},{"start":957.998,"end":985.655,"text":"對我們的行政權呵護備制保護到了極點的憲法法庭都認為這個條文都沒有違憲但讓我覺得比較心痛的是什麼比較心痛的是我們未來在審查人事同意權的時候我本來希望在台灣審大法官的時候可以看到像美國參議院在審聯邦最高法院法官被提名那種莊嚴的程序"},{"start":987.854,"end":1001.772,"text":"這個是Jackson大法官當初在參議院人事同意權審查的時候他在回答問題以前他第一個做什麼事啊手舉起來宣示啊我所說的全部都是真實的我不會說謊"},{"start":1003.663,"end":1017.682,"text":"但這個宣誓的要求也被我們偉大的憲法法庭的判決宣告違憲在中華民國憲法法學當中要求被提名人宣誓"},{"start":1018.834,"end":1034.929,"text":"他在國會裡面審查的過程當中講的都是真的要不然要接受法律處罰否則啊就是危險主席站起來啦最後這一個問題啊來請教周秘書長贊不贊成這個憲法法庭這樣的看法"},{"start":1036.938,"end":1057.327,"text":"很抱歉,這個本身如果是配開秘書長的角度我的說明是認為這個比較法庭裡面大概可能過大的對於立法權的一個線索"},{"start":1058.708,"end":1075.499,"text":"沒有 做秘書長我不要害你啦因為你只是秘書長嘛今天我很怕因為你在國會的殿堂裡面說了這樣一個大實話接下來成為被攻擊的標的那不管怎麼樣在過去的立法過程當中你遭受了很多委屈"},{"start":1076.3,"end":1076.34,"text":"謝謝兩位秘書長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時23分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請周秘書長還有監察院李秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長、李秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：黃委員好。"],["主席：兩位，時間的關係，不一一問候。對於這一次憲法法庭的判決，當然在社會上面有非常多不一樣的評價，民進黨的總召柯建銘說這是一個偉大的憲法判決，另外一位，我個人是比較敬重，真正長期在研究有關於國會改革，我們民進黨非常重要的前輩林濁水，他說這是在澈底掏空國會的調查權，林濁水說這是在澈底掏空國會的調查權，讓臺灣的立法院離正常西方民主國家的體制越來越遠，讓臺灣國會體制成為獨一無二的民主怪胎。我兩面具呈，兩種不一樣的看法，通通都有，我想要比較具體的來看，有關於國會改革過去民進黨的前輩他主張的是什麼？是沒有聽證、沒有調查，立法院就成了缺了牙的老虎。這個比較像是形容詞，因為內容比較不具體。我們再往下看，林佳龍是直接說什麼？他說：說謊更是要對其在國會殿堂所做的不實證詞或虛偽陳述負起刑法上、政治上面的責任。所以那個時候民進黨的臺灣智庫編了一個冊子叫作「請對國會說實話」。當然問題是現在按照憲法法庭大法官所揭櫫的憲政價值，其實不用對國會說實話，因為即使在國會上面說謊，即使在國會上面說謊，也不會有任何的法律責任。他說要負的只有負政治責任，沒有法律責任。","我們進一步地來看，比較精準地來看一下憲法法庭的判決理由上面是怎麼寫的？它說政府人員應邀出席立法院各種委員會，並為說明或陳述意見，係基於責任政治，行政院須對立法院負責之憲法要求，乃屬政治責任之性，無涉法律責任。所以這不可以有法律責任的性質，特別是針對有關於刑法第一百四十一條之一，當初第一百四十一條之一有很多法界的先進，甚至是民進黨、行政院、總統那邊的訴訟代理人的代表說什麼？欠缺法律明確性。什麼叫虛偽陳述、什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項，法條規範的法律構成要件不明確，所以違憲。但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題，認為那根本都不是問題，因為它直接講什麼？它沒有去指摘第一百四十一條之一是違反構成要件明確性，沒有，沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋，也沒有說就其所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋，因為現行法都有了嘛！它直接釜底抽薪說什麼？它說公務人員虛偽陳述，行政首長、政府人員在立法院說謊，這個是政治責任，無涉法律責任。來，我先請教一下周秘書長，在這樣子的情況下，在立法院裡面說謊，我們只要科以刑事責任就違憲，還有任何透過修法補救的可能性嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果按照大法官有權解釋，那就沒辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：就沒辦法嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我們不管怎麼修，大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值，就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以科以刑事責任，如果科以刑事責任就是違憲，那我就完全看不懂，而中華民國的憲法法學非常特殊，不管在美國、在法國、在德國、在日本虛偽陳述科以刑事責任，在我們具有中華民國憲法法學的大法官眼中通通都是違憲的，那已經不是接下來可不可以修法補救的問題，是這一腳踩下去了以後，根本沒有任何的回頭路。當然，如果這一次大法官可以做這樣子的解釋，有人說是修正，有人說是掏空，有人說是補充，有人說是變更釋字第585號，那個留待接下來的憲法學者自己慢慢去詮釋，但只看這一號判決是不是未來新的憲法法庭，在未來的時候從法的續造、憲政價值的延伸，是不是有繼續變更的可能性？但我現在要問個比較直接的問題，第一個，在這次的立法程序上，我知道秘書長遭受到了非常多的誣衊跟指摘、非常多的誣衊跟指摘，甚至有立法委員對於你允許舉手投票這件事情，直接嗆聲說要把你趕下臺，我覺得某個程度上面秘書長辛苦了，在這整個過程當中承受了很多不需要承受的事情，甚至還遭到暴力攻擊，那位對你暴力攻擊的立法委員跟你道歉了沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：在委員會裡面他有特別稍微做了一個說明。"],["黃委員國昌：有道歉嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：只能在這邊跟委員報告，他有特別做一個說明。"],["黃委員國昌：他有說明嘛！連道歉基本的態度都沒有展現出來，對議事人員發動暴力攻擊，所以嘛！實質討論的時間極其有限，議場常常處於一片混亂，這次憲法法庭對於立法程序，他說合憲但有瑕疵，但這個瑕疵到底是誰造成的？我相信全國民眾心裡有一把尺，議場常常處於一片混亂，為什麼會混亂？就暴力攻擊嘛！要不然我們的議場怎麼會變成這個樣子？進一步具體來看，我看了以後其實非常地驚訝，因為大法官宣告違憲的條文不是只有這次修的，已經貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲了，我為什麼說他貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲？來，看一下，立法院職權行使法第十五條之二第一項「立法院得經全體立法委員四分之一以上提議，院會決議後，由程序委員會排定議程」，這個條文是這次修正的嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：報告委員，這是在97年才加這一章的。"],["黃委員國昌：2008年嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，這是97年5月9號，在第7屆修的，但是這個條文裡面，因為這次第十五條之二的第一項已經變成違憲了，所以現在立法委員幾乎是沒有提案的權利。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們現在即使經過全體立法委員四分之一的提議，院會決議，由程序委員會排定議程，邀請總統來，這是違憲的嘛？是吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，照著解釋是這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：這是2008年的時候修法的內容，這次憲法法庭宣告違憲的範圍非常地廣，把以前2008年的時候賴清德曾經參與過的修法、他也表示贊成的修法通通宣告違憲，讓臺灣正式走入一個得到40%選票的總統可以當超級大總統的超級大總統制。他腦袋裡面在想的不是過去民進黨在野的時候大家腦袋在想的事情，當行政權獨大，國會沒有辦法有效監督制衡的時候，怎麼強化國會的調查權跟聽證權？甚至離譜到什麼程度？那不是只有把以前的條文、以前的規範、2008年的規定都宣告違憲。我們直接再看，立法院職權行使法第二十五條第三項「被質詢人非經立法院院會或各委員會之同意，不得缺席。」連這個都宣告違憲，這個部分秘書長你有沒有掌握？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們的資料整理第8頁裡面可以看到，它已經寫是違憲。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！那你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長，我為什麼說你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長？來，看一下，韓國瑜院長在9月28號院會宣布的，他說來立法院這邊備詢的時候，請行政院院長、副院長、各部會首長要親自出席備詢，除非有特別重要的事情外，不要請假，立法院前有函文通知行政院轉告各部會首長要遵照辦理。如果按照這次憲法法庭的判決，行政官員不來不請假，沒有得到同意，立法院也沒辦法幹嘛，那我們立法院發給行政院這個函文是不是也違憲？請教秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：這一次我們大概是按照第二十六條裡面衍生的議事例。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！但是它已經講了，來！看一下憲法法庭判決的理由，它說什麼？立法院沒有凌駕在行政院之上，就行政院院長等行政首長請假不出席立法院院會的情況，立法院不可以自我授權，為同意或不同意的權限，簡單來講是什麼？他愛來不來，不用經過立法院同意啦！既然不用經過立法院同意，我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去？他愛來不來都可以啊！它上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎？","我們繼續往下看，2016年4月14號在內政委員會，那個時候選舉結束了，有新的國會，但是是舊的看守內閣，當時是新的國會，因為2016年2月1號以後民進黨就過半了嘛！但是那個時候還是馬政府在看守內閣的狀態，那個時候行政院秘書長沒有向內政委員會報告，並列席備詢，所以那個時候在內政委員會提案譴責，因此在我們憲法法庭的憲政秩序、憲政價值之下，我們還可以提案譴責嗎？請教秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為剛才黃委員的整個提問過程當中，因為有涉及到藐視國會已經沒有了……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！那個是刑事處罰，它不行嘛！現在我只有回到請假不請假的問題，我們院會、委員會說要經過我們院會、委員會的同意，大法官說這是國會擴權，不可以做這樣子的規定，不可以做這樣子的規定的話，我們一定要往下延伸說，我們憲法法庭這麼偉大的意旨，到底要怎麼貫徹在立法院的運作當中嘛？我看了以後就覺得很困惑，他以後不來，我的提案譴責會不會違憲？請教秘書長高見。"],["周秘書長萬來：譴責案是不會，但是沒有拘束力……"],["黃委員國昌：譴責案是不會嘛！所以我們立法院以後可以打嘴炮，可以打嘴炮！譴責不會違憲嘛！但是有牙齒的東西可能就會違憲，2016年4月14號這個例子還可以進一步往前延伸，因為那個時候民進黨的委員除了提案譴責以外，他還要求什麼？要移送監察院，移送監察院有沒有違憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果以條文來看，目前它的解釋是違憲，不能送了。"],["黃委員國昌：那我就覺得很奇怪，因為移送監察院的條文是1999年就通過的條文耶！這一次修法，針對立法院移送給監察院，跟調閱東西不給移送給監察院的，不是這一次修法的，是1999年修法的東西耶！我們這次憲法法庭貫穿力非常的強烈，不是只有在審查這次修法的內容喔！1999年移送給監察院的，它說這個是憲政爭議，尚非監察院行使糾正權的範圍，而且立法院沒有所謂的移送權，那我們以後要注意，立法院不要隨便移送東西給監察院，因為我們連移送權都沒有，監察院愛辦不辦，要怎麼辦？監察院自己去討論啦！","再往下看，行政院當初提覆議理由的時候，我說上面充斥著假訊息，其中一個重要的是什麼？它說我們認定最低審查是一個月，沒有設上限，這個叫無限期審查人事同意權，不會，這一次大法官釋憲出來了，對我們的行政權呵護備至！保護到了極點的憲法法庭認為這個條文都沒有違憲，但讓我覺得比較心痛的是什麼？比較心痛的是我們未來在審查人事同意權的時候，我本來希望在臺灣審大法官的時候，可以看到像美國參議院在審聯邦最高法院法官被提名那種莊嚴的程序，Jackson大法官當初在參議院審查人事同意權的時候，他在回答問題以前，他第一個做什麼事？手舉起來宣示說他所說的全部都是真實的，他不會說謊，但這個宣示的要求也被我們偉大的憲法法庭的判決宣告違憲，在中華民國的憲法法學當中，要求被提名人宣示他在國會裡面審查過程當中講的都是真的，不然要接受法律處罰，否則就是違憲。","主席站起來了，最後這個問題請教周秘書長，贊不贊成這個憲法法庭這樣的看法？"],["周秘書長萬來：很抱歉，我大概……這一個本身如果是撇開秘書長的角度，我的說明是認為這個比較……法庭裡面可能擴大對於立法權的一個限縮。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，周秘書長，我不要害你，因為你只是秘書長，今天我很怕你因為在國會的殿堂裡面，說了這樣的一個大實話，接下來成為被攻擊的標的，不管怎麼樣，在過去的立法過程當中，你遭受了很多委屈，背負了很多不該背負的東西，甚至還遭到暴力攻擊，對於你在過去這段時間當中，在本院盡心盡力、在職責上面的表現，給你肯定，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝兩位秘書長。主席再次提醒，我們往例的詢答時間最長是10分鐘，現在已經延長到15分鐘，目的是希望讓委員不會有10分鐘的緊迫壓力，但也希望委員在15分鐘屆滿的時候，能夠完成您的詢答，謝謝大家配合。","接下來有請林委員思銘質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}}