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0.857}, {\"word\": \"雙\"}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 287.316, \"end\": 287.476, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 287.476, \"end\": 287.536, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 287.536, \"end\": 287.717, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 287.717, \"end\": 287.737, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 293.567, \"end\": 294.908, \"text\": \"委員長你別說了啦 我也不為難你啦齁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 293.567, \"end\": 293.587, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 293.587, \"end\": 293.967, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 293.967, \"end\": 294.107, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 294.107, \"end\": 294.127, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 294.127, \"end\": 294.148, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 294.148, \"end\": 294.168, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 294.168, \"end\": 294.288, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": 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00:01:30,660\n而且徹底的把我們立法權呢打了很大的一巴掌大法官根本就是執政黨的打手嘛根本就是賴清德總統的打手嘛我們看到整個不管是國情報告也好人事權的審查也好調查聽證權也好以及藐視國會罪以及相關反執權的規定\n\n5\n00:01:32,571 --> 00:01:57,299\n大法官雖然認為部分合憲但是實質上他就跟我們憲判字第第8號有關廢死的判決幾乎是差不多的意見實質上就是認為我們相關國會應該具備的制衡監督的武器就完全沒了就實質被廢除了\n\n6\n00:01:58,815 --> 00:02:06,505\n所以我們從判決裡面看到這些多麼沒有風骨是真的不具備專業的學術\n\n7\n00:02:09,768 --> 00:02:34,959\n還是說刻意的護航執政黨所以我們非常的遺憾也要提出大大的譴責首先秘書長我們來看一下國會的國情報告這部分剛才秘書長也講得很清楚現在因為憲法徵修條文裡面規定說我們立法院可以邀請總統到立法院來做國情報告\n\n8\n00:02:35,979 --> 00:02:46,479\n但是現在已經把97年修的法律啊15條2等於十字已經被廢掉了立法院邀請他他可以不用來是不是民主黨\n\n9\n00:02:48,804 --> 00:03:03,094\n是這樣的報告因為這個衍生我上次有在貴會報告這一個國情報告當時我很清楚的說明一個我自己書裡面自己也有寫過總統不像立法案負責不過依照當時的話\n\n10\n00:03:07,625 --> 00:03:30,965\n立法院有決定權不過這一次的第15條之後的第一項已經被宣告為違憲了所以相對的只有變成總統才可以到立法院報告他自己自行決定嘛自行報告不過有一點這裡面的條文還是要立法院同意的啦所以這個會轉入到目前所說的變成在\n\n11\n00:03:32,186 --> 00:03:57,312\n陳學遠總統的時候的93年跟95年的情況可能因為主席要寫這個困境吧所以我也思考了很久本來秘書長是沒有權利講這些話的因為本來是行政業務而已但是既然主席要這樣說所以我就請我們法治單位把整個做的復建在後各位可以參考\n\n12\n00:03:58,012 --> 00:03:58,713\n是,好,謝謝民主黨。實際上我想講的就是說因為這一次的認定總統\n\n13\n00:04:14,181 --> 00:04:32,700\n到這個國會來做國情報告已經讓他可以可以說總統啊自行決定總統對於題目他也可以自行決定立法院也不能要求設定題目那立法院要求他來他要不要做詢答也是由總統自己來做決定\n\n14\n00:04:33,701 --> 00:04:47,737\n所以我們認為這樣子的情況之下大法官認為說我們這個修正的條文是違反權力分立的原則這個我不禁就要想問到底中華民國現在是採行什麼樣的一個體制我們是不是雙手掌制啊\n\n15\n00:04:53,567 --> 00:04:54,908\n委員長你別說了啦我也不為難你啦齁\n\n16\n00:05:18,169 --> 00:05:43,588\n其實我們就看很清楚的看到一點現在的總統根本就是有權無責現在行政院長是總統的幕僚長他的提名之後任命根本不用經過我們立法院的同意所以只有行政院長必須到立法院來做相關的一個備詢以及做這個整個施政的一個說明那總統躲在背後\n\n17\n00:05:44,747 --> 00:06:09,963\n所以我們這一次修法讓總統到立法院就他的施政的重大方針以及重要的政策到立法院來做說明以及報告並讓我們立法院的委員可以來對他做質詢監督那由總統來做回答這個才是一個民主政治我們可以直接對只有40%選出來的總統做直接的監督啊\n\n18\n00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:34,914\n現在大法官把這個都拿掉認為這個都不行那這個總統不是變成大總統嗎隨時專制獨裁他在躲在幕後他要怎麼樣子指揮他的幕僚長完全沒有責任這是責任政治嗎這符合民主法制嗎所以我們非常遺憾\n\n19\n00:06:39,437 --> 00:06:58,588\n具有憲政專精的這些大法官竟然做出這樣的一個憲法解釋所以我們覺得說這批大法官真的印證我們在之前所推論的就是律猶有完全向執政黨來靠攏\n\n20\n00:07:00,660 --> 00:07:29,277\n那姆長我想您在立法院服務也將近40年了你也將您這一生最精華的歲月都奉獻給國會我們都非常佩服所以我現在要講的就是說民進黨一直主張說我們在整個立法的過程中黑箱沒有討論但是我們在這一次的憲法的判決裡面對於這一個部分憲法法庭認定是合憲的\n\n21\n00:07:30,942 --> 00:07:58,699\n儘管他說在立法程序中有點瑕疵但是還是充分尊重我們國會自律的一個原則所以認定說這個沒有違憲所以還你一個清白啦所以我們很想問問說當時一直主張說我們這個整個程序違法然後號召這些青鳥還請很多的律師來連署說我們這個程序不合法\n\n22\n00:08:00,479 --> 00:08:04,785\n這些人是不是要向我們社會大眾來道歉?是不是要向秘書長道歉?\n\n23\n00:08:06,826 --> 00:08:35,625\n所以我覺得說真的是去把整個帶風向把整個導正我們國會的一個讓國會更具有一個武器能夠對我們的行政權加以監督制衡這麼好的一個國會改革無法把它誤導為是在踐踏行政權我們非常的遺憾從整個我們的行政整個立法程序裡面這次大法官認定是合法\n\n24\n00:08:36,705 --> 00:08:55,856\n完全沒有違憲所以我們真的要呼籲這些立法院的當時在批評這個法案是違背程序正義以及社會大眾受到誤導而認為違背程序正義我覺得他們真的要跟大家來道歉\n\n25\n00:08:57,421 --> 00:09:13,506\n另外我們對於這個反質詢的部分我想這次反質詢的部分當然那個我們的憲法判決認為說反質詢部分部分是核限但是我們也很遺憾的看到說他認為說\n\n26\n00:09:15,458 --> 00:09:33,052\n立法當官員在被質詢的時候他還是可以針對一些問題可以對立法委員來做反面的一個質詢可以做提問的一個問句秘書長正在你的專業你認為憲法法庭這樣的判決對嗎\n\n27\n00:09:37,706 --> 00:10:03,841\n他的理由上啊因為我的報告裡面所寫的是說他是回復到原來的這個條文啦增加是沒有啦沒有大概是大長小一個差那針對他這個緩之詢的這一個憲法所做的這一個理由上那這可能會構成到一個\n\n28\n00:10:05,982 --> 00:10:13,615\n被詢的人他可能的語氣他如果照憲法法庭所說的如果是這一個\n\n29\n00:10:14,929 --> 00:10:28,998\n如果這種情況的話就變成言語表達方法有可能只剩於禮儀上的爭執了,仍屬於立法院所以民主黨,這個部分未來在我們在委員跟這些官員來詢談的時候我們就認為這個就會助長官員的氣焰可能未來就會有很大的爭議\n\n30\n00:10:42,168 --> 00:11:08,979\n所以我們講其實我個人是覺得說反質詢的定義沒有什麼不確定的法律概念就是說官員你對於質詢你的人當立法院在質詢你的時候你就不得反過來質詢我們的立法院這個定義非常明確啊所以還可以去對立法院說反而提問來問你說委員請問你的看法是什麼可以這樣嗎\n\n31\n00:11:10,822 --> 00:11:29,951\n所以我是覺得說這個憲法法庭的這些大法官去刻意的去做反質詢做加以定義然後又去刻意向官員做靠攏說他也可以提問在某部分可以提問我覺得這個都是非常這個不恰當的另外我們最後就國會的聽證調查權部分來請教這個秘書長\n\n32\n00:11:35,073 --> 00:11:58,760\n這一次就是我們可以成立調查委員會但是對我們的調查專案小組卻否定說可以成立另外對於政府人員提供資料或物件我們調查委員會要求他提出相關的資料並且要求我們人民出席作證等事項憲法法庭認為超出我們的權限因此違憲失效\n\n33\n00:12:00,541 --> 00:12:21,763\n這個部分也否覺得大大的限縮我們立法院的一個權限所以我們認為說對於聽證調查權如果說我們在585號解釋所謂的說我們為了讓我們的國會讓我們的立法院他在行使權力的時候能夠更發揮他的一個效能\n\n34\n00:12:22,364 --> 00:12:40,903\n所以也認定說我們可以有一個強制處分權可以予以行政處罰但是這一次連行政法都不可以所以把過去585號解釋所賦予我們立法院國會的一個功能把它完全取消掉大法官是不是在打臉自己啊\n\n35\n00:12:44,457 --> 00:12:52,962\n585號解釋說我們有一個可以予以強制處罰的一個行政罰的一個權利但這一次說完全不可以牧長認為妥當嗎\n\n36\n00:12:58,979 --> 00:13:17,134\n是不是打臉自己?很抱歉我大概不能針對這個做任何一個闡述啦我只能跟貴會報告當時在民國87年在研擬這個立法院職權行使法的時候當時沒有5號解釋只有3號、5號解釋\n\n37\n00:13:20,197 --> 00:13:47,769\n所以當時的草擬的同事我是把他退回去因為他按照林委員佐水的議事規則的草案草擬來是有比較的規範跟文件調閱有點差異啦所以後來再重新再演繹變成現行的條文所以秘書長我想我們還是要說啦如果立法院的調查權沒有強制處分做後盾的話\n\n38\n00:13:49,229 --> 00:14:17,772\n根本他就沒有辦法去拘束我們這些相關的這些官員他到立法院來作證或者到立法院來做相關的詢答的時候必須真實的去對我們的問題做出他的一個回答所以沒有強制處分權做後盾我想過去我們的立法的先進大家都說這等於說就是讓我們國會成為沒有牙齒的老虎\n\n39\n00:14:19,194 --> 00:14:46,646\n這樣如何發揮我們監督制衡的功能所以大法官這樣的弱化我們的立法院立法權真的我們感到非常的不齒所以我們要就這個我們人事同意權的部分我想憲法法庭他雖然認定說我們可以經由提名的機關提出書面問題但是很奇怪的他就寬慎的說\n\n40\n00:14:48,615 --> 00:15:09,527\n他不是這些對於書面的提問他不是必須回答這屬於人事審查的任意程序被提名人有權自行回答他可以自行決定他是否來回應這樣是不是進一步的讓我們的被提名人\n\n41\n00:15:10,834 --> 00:15:30,063\n可以無視立法委員對他進行人事審查的一個監督的這樣的一個的一個情形所以才為我剛才講的是不是更進一步的去我們印證了我們一直講的這些大法官根本就是在弱化國會的審查權院長是不是不用回答可以不用回答\n\n42\n00:15:39,513 --> 00:16:05,885\n我只能這樣說那你要不要回答不是我說那個啊我們對於我們立法院國會要求我們被提名人我們用書面質詢他的時候他可以不用回答嗎可以不用回答嗎我不是叫秘書長不要回答但是他的狀況是如果照憲法法庭的解釋就是有\n\n43\n00:16:06,994 --> 00:16:35,054\n我們本身來決定他是不是同意權的狀況至於中間的過程他並沒有太過所以其實我要表達就是說其實我們這些大法官都是在踐踏我們的國會弱化我們的審查權未來如果這些大法官沒有就我們的不管是書面的一個詢答或者是我們在口頭問他的時候他拒絕提供相關的一些資料\n\n44\n00:16:35,774 --> 00:16:41,001\n我想都是會作為我們未來行使同意權非常重要的參考依據以上謝謝秘書長謝謝林委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t12218\t謝謝主席 請秘書長哪一位秘書長我們周燕來秘書長請周秘書長 謝謝\n20680\t31397\t秘書長早,我想這次大法官的判決出來其實我們對整個判決我們看到這些大法官他們不演了\n33160\t61354\t我們看到大法官對於我們國會改革無法從他的判決裡面我們看到大開民主的倒車大法官充分的竭盡所能的向我們綠色執政來靠攏我要這個很生氣的說這些人真的是風骨蕩然無存泯滅他的學術良知\n63325\t90660\t而且徹底的把我們立法權呢打了很大的一巴掌大法官根本就是執政黨的打手嘛根本就是賴清德總統的打手嘛我們看到整個不管是國情報告也好人事權的審查也好調查聽證權也好以及藐視國會罪以及相關反執權的規定\n92571\t117299\t大法官雖然認為部分合憲但是實質上他就跟我們憲判字第第8號有關廢死的判決幾乎是差不多的意見實質上就是認為我們相關國會應該具備的制衡監督的武器就完全沒了就實質被廢除了\n118815\t126505\t所以我們從判決裡面看到這些多麼沒有風骨是真的不具備專業的學術\n129768\t154959\t還是說刻意的護航執政黨所以我們非常的遺憾也要提出大大的譴責首先秘書長我們來看一下國會的國情報告這部分剛才秘書長也講得很清楚現在因為憲法徵修條文裡面規定說我們立法院可以邀請總統到立法院來做國情報告\n155979\t166479\t但是現在已經把97年修的法律啊15條2等於十字已經被廢掉了立法院邀請他他可以不用來是不是民主黨\n168804\t183094\t是這樣的報告因為這個衍生我上次有在貴會報告這一個國情報告當時我很清楚的說明一個我自己書裡面自己也有寫過總統不像立法案負責不過依照當時的話\n187625\t210965\t立法院有決定權不過這一次的第15條之後的第一項已經被宣告為違憲了所以相對的只有變成總統才可以到立法院報告他自己自行決定嘛自行報告不過有一點這裡面的條文還是要立法院同意的啦所以這個會轉入到目前所說的變成在\n212186\t237312\t陳學遠總統的時候的93年跟95年的情況可能因為主席要寫這個困境吧所以我也思考了很久本來秘書長是沒有權利講這些話的因為本來是行政業務而已但是既然主席要這樣說所以我就請我們法治單位把整個做的復建在後各位可以參考\n238012\t238713\t是,好,謝謝民主黨。實際上我想講的就是說因為這一次的認定總統\n254181\t272700\t到這個國會來做國情報告已經讓他可以可以說總統啊自行決定總統對於題目他也可以自行決定立法院也不能要求設定題目那立法院要求他來他要不要做詢答也是由總統自己來做決定\n273701\t287737\t所以我們認為這樣子的情況之下大法官認為說我們這個修正的條文是違反權力分立的原則這個我不禁就要想問到底中華民國現在是採行什麼樣的一個體制我們是不是雙手掌制啊\n293567\t294908\t委員長你別說了啦 我也不為難你啦齁\n318169\t343588\t其實我們就看很清楚的看到一點現在的總統根本就是有權無責現在行政院長是總統的幕僚長他的提名之後任命根本不用經過我們立法院的同意所以只有行政院長必須到立法院來做相關的一個備詢以及做這個整個施政的一個說明那總統躲在背後\n344747\t369963\t所以我們這一次修法讓總統到立法院就他的施政的重大方針以及重要的政策到立法院來做說明以及報告並讓我們立法院的委員可以來對他做質詢監督那由總統來做回答這個才是一個民主政治我們可以直接對只有40%選出來的總統做直接的監督啊\n374040\t394914\t現在大法官把這個都拿掉認為這個都不行那這個總統不是變成大總統嗎隨時專制獨裁他在躲在幕後他要怎麼樣子指揮他的幕僚長完全沒有責任這是責任政治嗎這符合民主法制嗎所以我們非常遺憾\n399437\t418588\t具有憲政專精的這些大法官竟然做出這樣的一個憲法解釋所以我們覺得說這批大法官真的印證我們在之前所推論的就是律猶有完全向執政黨來靠攏\n420660\t449277\t那姆長我想您在立法院服務也將近40年了你也將您這一生最精華的歲月都奉獻給國會我們都非常佩服所以我現在要講的就是說民進黨一直主張說我們在整個立法的過程中黑箱沒有討論但是我們在這一次的憲法的判決裡面對於這一個部分憲法法庭認定是合憲的\n450942\t478699\t儘管他說在立法程序中有點瑕疵但是還是充分尊重我們國會自律的一個原則所以認定說這個沒有違憲所以還你一個清白啦所以我們很想問問說當時一直主張說我們這個整個程序違法然後號召這些青鳥還請很多的律師來連署說我們這個程序不合法\n480479\t484785\t這些人是不是要向我們社會大眾來道歉?是不是要向秘書長道歉?\n486826\t515625\t所以我覺得說真的是去把整個帶風向把整個導正我們國會的一個讓國會更具有一個武器能夠對我們的行政權加以監督制衡這麼好的一個國會改革無法把它誤導為是在踐踏行政權我們非常的遺憾從整個我們的行政整個立法程序裡面這次大法官認定是合法\n516705\t535856\t完全沒有違憲所以我們真的要呼籲這些立法院的當時在批評這個法案是違背程序正義以及社會大眾受到誤導而認為違背程序正義我覺得他們真的要跟大家來道歉\n537421\t553506\t另外我們對於這個反質詢的部分我想這次反質詢的部分當然那個我們的憲法判決認為說反質詢部分部分是核限但是我們也很遺憾的看到說他認為說\n555458\t573052\t立法當官員在被質詢的時候他還是可以針對一些問題可以對立法委員來做反面的一個質詢可以做提問的一個問句秘書長正在你的專業你認為憲法法庭這樣的判決對嗎\n577706\t603841\t他的理由上啊因為我的報告裡面所寫的是說他是回復到原來的這個條文啦增加是沒有啦沒有大概是大長小一個差那針對他這個緩之詢的這一個憲法所做的這一個理由上那這可能會構成到一個\n605982\t613615\t被詢的人他可能的語氣他如果照憲法法庭所說的如果是這一個\n614929\t628998\t如果這種情況的話就變成言語表達方法有可能只剩於禮儀上的爭執了,仍屬於立法院所以民主黨,這個部分未來在我們在委員跟這些官員來詢談的時候我們就認為這個就會助長官員的氣焰可能未來就會有很大的爭議\n642168\t668979\t所以我們講其實我個人是覺得說反質詢的定義沒有什麼不確定的法律概念就是說官員你對於質詢你的人當立法院在質詢你的時候你就不得反過來質詢我們的立法院這個定義非常明確啊所以還可以去對立法院說反而提問來問你說委員請問你的看法是什麼可以這樣嗎\n670822\t689951\t所以我是覺得說這個憲法法庭的這些大法官去刻意的去做反質詢做加以定義然後又去刻意向官員做靠攏說他也可以提問在某部分可以提問我覺得這個都是非常這個不恰當的另外我們最後就國會的聽證調查權部分來請教這個秘書長\n695073\t718760\t這一次就是我們可以成立調查委員會但是對我們的調查專案小組卻否定說可以成立另外對於政府人員提供資料或物件我們調查委員會要求他提出相關的資料並且要求我們人民出席作證等事項憲法法庭認為超出我們的權限因此違憲失效\n720541\t741763\t這個部分也否覺得大大的限縮我們立法院的一個權限所以我們認為說對於聽證調查權如果說我們在585號解釋所謂的說我們為了讓我們的國會讓我們的立法院他在行使權力的時候能夠更發揮他的一個效能\n742364\t760903\t所以也認定說我們可以有一個強制處分權可以予以行政處罰但是這一次連行政法都不可以所以把過去585號解釋所賦予我們立法院國會的一個功能把它完全取消掉大法官是不是在打臉自己啊\n764457\t772962\t585號解釋說我們有一個可以予以強制處罰的一個行政罰的一個權利但這一次說完全不可以牧長認為妥當嗎\n778979\t797134\t是不是打臉自己?很抱歉我大概不能針對這個做任何一個闡述啦我只能跟貴會報告當時在民國87年在研擬這個立法院職權行使法的時候當時沒有5號解釋只有3號、5號解釋\n800197\t827769\t所以當時的草擬的同事我是把他退回去因為他按照林委員佐水的議事規則的草案草擬來是有比較的規範跟文件調閱有點差異啦所以後來再重新再演繹變成現行的條文所以秘書長我想我們還是要說啦如果立法院的調查權沒有強制處分做後盾的話\n829229\t857772\t根本他就沒有辦法去拘束我們這些相關的這些官員他到立法院來作證或者到立法院來做相關的詢答的時候必須真實的去對我們的問題做出他的一個回答所以沒有強制處分權做後盾我想過去我們的立法的先進大家都說這等於說就是讓我們國會成為沒有牙齒的老虎\n859194\t886646\t這樣如何發揮我們監督制衡的功能所以大法官這樣的弱化我們的立法院立法權真的我們感到非常的不齒所以我們要就這個我們人事同意權的部分我想憲法法庭他雖然認定說我們可以經由提名的機關提出書面問題但是很奇怪的他就寬慎的說\n888615\t909527\t他不是這些對於書面的提問他不是必須回答這屬於人事審查的任意程序被提名人有權自行回答他可以自行決定他是否來回應這樣是不是進一步的讓我們的被提名人\n910834\t930063\t可以無視立法委員對他進行人事審查的一個監督的這樣的一個的一個情形所以才為我剛才講的是不是更進一步的去我們印證了我們一直講的這些大法官根本就是在弱化國會的審查權院長是不是不用回答可以不用回答\n939513\t965885\t我只能這樣說那你要不要回答不是我說那個啊我們對於我們立法院國會要求我們被提名人我們用書面質詢他的時候他可以不用回答嗎可以不用回答嗎我不是叫秘書長不要回答但是他的狀況是如果照憲法法庭的解釋就是有\n966994\t995054\t我們本身來決定他是不是同意權的狀況至於中間的過程他並沒有太過所以其實我要表達就是說其實我們這些大法官都是在踐踏我們的國會弱化我們的審查權未來如果這些大法官沒有就我們的不管是書面的一個詢答或者是我們在口頭問他的時候他拒絕提供相關的一些資料\n995774\t1001001\t我想都是會作為我們未來行使同意權非常重要的參考依據以上謝謝秘書長謝謝林委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請秘書長哪一位秘書長我們周燕來秘書長請周秘書長 謝謝\n秘書長早,我想這次大法官的判決出來其實我們對整個判決我們看到這些大法官他們不演了\n我們看到大法官對於我們國會改革無法從他的判決裡面我們看到大開民主的倒車大法官充分的竭盡所能的向我們綠色執政來靠攏我要這個很生氣的說這些人真的是風骨蕩然無存泯滅他的學術良知\n而且徹底的把我們立法權呢打了很大的一巴掌大法官根本就是執政黨的打手嘛根本就是賴清德總統的打手嘛我們看到整個不管是國情報告也好人事權的審查也好調查聽證權也好以及藐視國會罪以及相關反執權的規定\n大法官雖然認為部分合憲但是實質上他就跟我們憲判字第第8號有關廢死的判決幾乎是差不多的意見實質上就是認為我們相關國會應該具備的制衡監督的武器就完全沒了就實質被廢除了\n所以我們從判決裡面看到這些多麼沒有風骨是真的不具備專業的學術\n還是說刻意的護航執政黨所以我們非常的遺憾也要提出大大的譴責首先秘書長我們來看一下國會的國情報告這部分剛才秘書長也講得很清楚現在因為憲法徵修條文裡面規定說我們立法院可以邀請總統到立法院來做國情報告\n但是現在已經把97年修的法律啊15條2等於十字已經被廢掉了立法院邀請他他可以不用來是不是民主黨\n是這樣的報告因為這個衍生我上次有在貴會報告這一個國情報告當時我很清楚的說明一個我自己書裡面自己也有寫過總統不像立法案負責不過依照當時的話\n立法院有決定權不過這一次的第15條之後的第一項已經被宣告為違憲了所以相對的只有變成總統才可以到立法院報告他自己自行決定嘛自行報告不過有一點這裡面的條文還是要立法院同意的啦所以這個會轉入到目前所說的變成在\n陳學遠總統的時候的93年跟95年的情況可能因為主席要寫這個困境吧所以我也思考了很久本來秘書長是沒有權利講這些話的因為本來是行政業務而已但是既然主席要這樣說所以我就請我們法治單位把整個做的復建在後各位可以參考\n是,好,謝謝民主黨。實際上我想講的就是說因為這一次的認定總統\n到這個國會來做國情報告已經讓他可以可以說總統啊自行決定總統對於題目他也可以自行決定立法院也不能要求設定題目那立法院要求他來他要不要做詢答也是由總統自己來做決定\n所以我們認為這樣子的情況之下大法官認為說我們這個修正的條文是違反權力分立的原則這個我不禁就要想問到底中華民國現在是採行什麼樣的一個體制我們是不是雙手掌制啊\n委員長你別說了啦 我也不為難你啦齁\n其實我們就看很清楚的看到一點現在的總統根本就是有權無責現在行政院長是總統的幕僚長他的提名之後任命根本不用經過我們立法院的同意所以只有行政院長必須到立法院來做相關的一個備詢以及做這個整個施政的一個說明那總統躲在背後\n所以我們這一次修法讓總統到立法院就他的施政的重大方針以及重要的政策到立法院來做說明以及報告並讓我們立法院的委員可以來對他做質詢監督那由總統來做回答這個才是一個民主政治我們可以直接對只有40%選出來的總統做直接的監督啊\n現在大法官把這個都拿掉認為這個都不行那這個總統不是變成大總統嗎隨時專制獨裁他在躲在幕後他要怎麼樣子指揮他的幕僚長完全沒有責任這是責任政治嗎這符合民主法制嗎所以我們非常遺憾\n具有憲政專精的這些大法官竟然做出這樣的一個憲法解釋所以我們覺得說這批大法官真的印證我們在之前所推論的就是律猶有完全向執政黨來靠攏\n那姆長我想您在立法院服務也將近40年了你也將您這一生最精華的歲月都奉獻給國會我們都非常佩服所以我現在要講的就是說民進黨一直主張說我們在整個立法的過程中黑箱沒有討論但是我們在這一次的憲法的判決裡面對於這一個部分憲法法庭認定是合憲的\n儘管他說在立法程序中有點瑕疵但是還是充分尊重我們國會自律的一個原則所以認定說這個沒有違憲所以還你一個清白啦所以我們很想問問說當時一直主張說我們這個整個程序違法然後號召這些青鳥還請很多的律師來連署說我們這個程序不合法\n這些人是不是要向我們社會大眾來道歉?是不是要向秘書長道歉?\n所以我覺得說真的是去把整個帶風向把整個導正我們國會的一個讓國會更具有一個武器能夠對我們的行政權加以監督制衡這麼好的一個國會改革無法把它誤導為是在踐踏行政權我們非常的遺憾從整個我們的行政整個立法程序裡面這次大法官認定是合法\n完全沒有違憲所以我們真的要呼籲這些立法院的當時在批評這個法案是違背程序正義以及社會大眾受到誤導而認為違背程序正義我覺得他們真的要跟大家來道歉\n另外我們對於這個反質詢的部分我想這次反質詢的部分當然那個我們的憲法判決認為說反質詢部分部分是核限但是我們也很遺憾的看到說他認為說\n立法當官員在被質詢的時候他還是可以針對一些問題可以對立法委員來做反面的一個質詢可以做提問的一個問句秘書長正在你的專業你認為憲法法庭這樣的判決對嗎\n他的理由上啊因為我的報告裡面所寫的是說他是回復到原來的這個條文啦增加是沒有啦沒有大概是大長小一個差那針對他這個緩之詢的這一個憲法所做的這一個理由上那這可能會構成到一個\n被詢的人他可能的語氣他如果照憲法法庭所說的如果是這一個\n如果這種情況的話就變成言語表達方法有可能只剩於禮儀上的爭執了,仍屬於立法院所以民主黨,這個部分未來在我們在委員跟這些官員來詢談的時候我們就認為這個就會助長官員的氣焰可能未來就會有很大的爭議\n所以我們講其實我個人是覺得說反質詢的定義沒有什麼不確定的法律概念就是說官員你對於質詢你的人當立法院在質詢你的時候你就不得反過來質詢我們的立法院這個定義非常明確啊所以還可以去對立法院說反而提問來問你說委員請問你的看法是什麼可以這樣嗎\n所以我是覺得說這個憲法法庭的這些大法官去刻意的去做反質詢做加以定義然後又去刻意向官員做靠攏說他也可以提問在某部分可以提問我覺得這個都是非常這個不恰當的另外我們最後就國會的聽證調查權部分來請教這個秘書長\n這一次就是我們可以成立調查委員會但是對我們的調查專案小組卻否定說可以成立另外對於政府人員提供資料或物件我們調查委員會要求他提出相關的資料並且要求我們人民出席作證等事項憲法法庭認為超出我們的權限因此違憲失效\n這個部分也否覺得大大的限縮我們立法院的一個權限所以我們認為說對於聽證調查權如果說我們在585號解釋所謂的說我們為了讓我們的國會讓我們的立法院他在行使權力的時候能夠更發揮他的一個效能\n所以也認定說我們可以有一個強制處分權可以予以行政處罰但是這一次連行政法都不可以所以把過去585號解釋所賦予我們立法院國會的一個功能把它完全取消掉大法官是不是在打臉自己啊\n585號解釋說我們有一個可以予以強制處罰的一個行政罰的一個權利但這一次說完全不可以牧長認為妥當嗎\n是不是打臉自己?很抱歉我大概不能針對這個做任何一個闡述啦我只能跟貴會報告當時在民國87年在研擬這個立法院職權行使法的時候當時沒有5號解釋只有3號、5號解釋\n所以當時的草擬的同事我是把他退回去因為他按照林委員佐水的議事規則的草案草擬來是有比較的規範跟文件調閱有點差異啦所以後來再重新再演繹變成現行的條文所以秘書長我想我們還是要說啦如果立法院的調查權沒有強制處分做後盾的話\n根本他就沒有辦法去拘束我們這些相關的這些官員他到立法院來作證或者到立法院來做相關的詢答的時候必須真實的去對我們的問題做出他的一個回答所以沒有強制處分權做後盾我想過去我們的立法的先進大家都說這等於說就是讓我們國會成為沒有牙齒的老虎\n這樣如何發揮我們監督制衡的功能所以大法官這樣的弱化我們的立法院立法權真的我們感到非常的不齒所以我們要就這個我們人事同意權的部分我想憲法法庭他雖然認定說我們可以經由提名的機關提出書面問題但是很奇怪的他就寬慎的說\n他不是這些對於書面的提問他不是必須回答這屬於人事審查的任意程序被提名人有權自行回答他可以自行決定他是否來回應這樣是不是進一步的讓我們的被提名人\n可以無視立法委員對他進行人事審查的一個監督的這樣的一個的一個情形所以才為我剛才講的是不是更進一步的去我們印證了我們一直講的這些大法官根本就是在弱化國會的審查權院長是不是不用回答可以不用回答\n我只能這樣說那你要不要回答不是我說那個啊我們對於我們立法院國會要求我們被提名人我們用書面質詢他的時候他可以不用回答嗎可以不用回答嗎我不是叫秘書長不要回答但是他的狀況是如果照憲法法庭的解釋就是有\n我們本身來決定他是不是同意權的狀況至於中間的過程他並沒有太過所以其實我要表達就是說其實我們這些大法官都是在踐踏我們的國會弱化我們的審查權未來如果這些大法官沒有就我們的不管是書面的一個詢答或者是我們在口頭問他的時候他拒絕提供相關的一些資料\n我想都是會作為我們未來行使同意權非常重要的參考依據以上謝謝秘書長謝謝林委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:12.218\n謝謝主席請秘書長哪一位秘書長我們周燕來秘書長請周秘書長謝謝\n\n00:20.680 --> 00:31.397\n秘書長早,我想這次大法官的判決出來其實我們對整個判決我們看到這些大法官他們不演了\n\n00:33.160 --> 01:01.354\n我們看到大法官對於我們國會改革無法從他的判決裡面我們看到大開民主的倒車大法官充分的竭盡所能的向我們綠色執政來靠攏我要這個很生氣的說這些人真的是風骨蕩然無存泯滅他的學術良知\n\n01:03.325 --> 01:30.660\n而且徹底的把我們立法權呢打了很大的一巴掌大法官根本就是執政黨的打手嘛根本就是賴清德總統的打手嘛我們看到整個不管是國情報告也好人事權的審查也好調查聽證權也好以及藐視國會罪以及相關反執權的規定\n\n01:32.571 --> 01:57.299\n大法官雖然認為部分合憲但是實質上他就跟我們憲判字第第8號有關廢死的判決幾乎是差不多的意見實質上就是認為我們相關國會應該具備的制衡監督的武器就完全沒了就實質被廢除了\n\n01:58.815 --> 02:06.505\n所以我們從判決裡面看到這些多麼沒有風骨是真的不具備專業的學術\n\n02:09.768 --> 02:34.959\n還是說刻意的護航執政黨所以我們非常的遺憾也要提出大大的譴責首先秘書長我們來看一下國會的國情報告這部分剛才秘書長也講得很清楚現在因為憲法徵修條文裡面規定說我們立法院可以邀請總統到立法院來做國情報告\n\n02:35.979 --> 02:46.479\n但是現在已經把97年修的法律啊15條2等於十字已經被廢掉了立法院邀請他他可以不用來是不是民主黨\n\n02:48.804 --> 03:03.094\n是這樣的報告因為這個衍生我上次有在貴會報告這一個國情報告當時我很清楚的說明一個我自己書裡面自己也有寫過總統不像立法案負責不過依照當時的話\n\n03:07.625 --> 03:30.965\n立法院有決定權不過這一次的第15條之後的第一項已經被宣告為違憲了所以相對的只有變成總統才可以到立法院報告他自己自行決定嘛自行報告不過有一點這裡面的條文還是要立法院同意的啦所以這個會轉入到目前所說的變成在\n\n03:32.186 --> 03:57.312\n陳學遠總統的時候的93年跟95年的情況可能因為主席要寫這個困境吧所以我也思考了很久本來秘書長是沒有權利講這些話的因為本來是行政業務而已但是既然主席要這樣說所以我就請我們法治單位把整個做的復建在後各位可以參考\n\n03:58.012 --> 03:58.713\n是,好,謝謝民主黨。實際上我想講的就是說因為這一次的認定總統\n\n04:14.181 --> 04:32.700\n到這個國會來做國情報告已經讓他可以可以說總統啊自行決定總統對於題目他也可以自行決定立法院也不能要求設定題目那立法院要求他來他要不要做詢答也是由總統自己來做決定\n\n04:33.701 --> 04:47.737\n所以我們認為這樣子的情況之下大法官認為說我們這個修正的條文是違反權力分立的原則這個我不禁就要想問到底中華民國現在是採行什麼樣的一個體制我們是不是雙手掌制啊\n\n04:53.567 --> 04:54.908\n委員長你別說了啦我也不為難你啦齁\n\n05:18.169 --> 05:43.588\n其實我們就看很清楚的看到一點現在的總統根本就是有權無責現在行政院長是總統的幕僚長他的提名之後任命根本不用經過我們立法院的同意所以只有行政院長必須到立法院來做相關的一個備詢以及做這個整個施政的一個說明那總統躲在背後\n\n05:44.747 --> 06:09.963\n所以我們這一次修法讓總統到立法院就他的施政的重大方針以及重要的政策到立法院來做說明以及報告並讓我們立法院的委員可以來對他做質詢監督那由總統來做回答這個才是一個民主政治我們可以直接對只有40%選出來的總統做直接的監督啊\n\n06:14.040 --> 06:34.914\n現在大法官把這個都拿掉認為這個都不行那這個總統不是變成大總統嗎隨時專制獨裁他在躲在幕後他要怎麼樣子指揮他的幕僚長完全沒有責任這是責任政治嗎這符合民主法制嗎所以我們非常遺憾\n\n06:39.437 --> 06:58.588\n具有憲政專精的這些大法官竟然做出這樣的一個憲法解釋所以我們覺得說這批大法官真的印證我們在之前所推論的就是律猶有完全向執政黨來靠攏\n\n07:00.660 --> 07:29.277\n那姆長我想您在立法院服務也將近40年了你也將您這一生最精華的歲月都奉獻給國會我們都非常佩服所以我現在要講的就是說民進黨一直主張說我們在整個立法的過程中黑箱沒有討論但是我們在這一次的憲法的判決裡面對於這一個部分憲法法庭認定是合憲的\n\n07:30.942 --> 07:58.699\n儘管他說在立法程序中有點瑕疵但是還是充分尊重我們國會自律的一個原則所以認定說這個沒有違憲所以還你一個清白啦所以我們很想問問說當時一直主張說我們這個整個程序違法然後號召這些青鳥還請很多的律師來連署說我們這個程序不合法\n\n08:00.479 --> 08:04.785\n這些人是不是要向我們社會大眾來道歉?是不是要向秘書長道歉?\n\n08:06.826 --> 08:35.625\n所以我覺得說真的是去把整個帶風向把整個導正我們國會的一個讓國會更具有一個武器能夠對我們的行政權加以監督制衡這麼好的一個國會改革無法把它誤導為是在踐踏行政權我們非常的遺憾從整個我們的行政整個立法程序裡面這次大法官認定是合法\n\n08:36.705 --> 08:55.856\n完全沒有違憲所以我們真的要呼籲這些立法院的當時在批評這個法案是違背程序正義以及社會大眾受到誤導而認為違背程序正義我覺得他們真的要跟大家來道歉\n\n08:57.421 --> 09:13.506\n另外我們對於這個反質詢的部分我想這次反質詢的部分當然那個我們的憲法判決認為說反質詢部分部分是核限但是我們也很遺憾的看到說他認為說\n\n09:15.458 --> 09:33.052\n立法當官員在被質詢的時候他還是可以針對一些問題可以對立法委員來做反面的一個質詢可以做提問的一個問句秘書長正在你的專業你認為憲法法庭這樣的判決對嗎\n\n09:37.706 --> 10:03.841\n他的理由上啊因為我的報告裡面所寫的是說他是回復到原來的這個條文啦增加是沒有啦沒有大概是大長小一個差那針對他這個緩之詢的這一個憲法所做的這一個理由上那這可能會構成到一個\n\n10:05.982 --> 10:13.615\n被詢的人他可能的語氣他如果照憲法法庭所說的如果是這一個\n\n10:14.929 --> 10:28.998\n如果這種情況的話就變成言語表達方法有可能只剩於禮儀上的爭執了,仍屬於立法院所以民主黨,這個部分未來在我們在委員跟這些官員來詢談的時候我們就認為這個就會助長官員的氣焰可能未來就會有很大的爭議\n\n10:42.168 --> 11:08.979\n所以我們講其實我個人是覺得說反質詢的定義沒有什麼不確定的法律概念就是說官員你對於質詢你的人當立法院在質詢你的時候你就不得反過來質詢我們的立法院這個定義非常明確啊所以還可以去對立法院說反而提問來問你說委員請問你的看法是什麼可以這樣嗎\n\n11:10.822 --> 11:29.951\n所以我是覺得說這個憲法法庭的這些大法官去刻意的去做反質詢做加以定義然後又去刻意向官員做靠攏說他也可以提問在某部分可以提問我覺得這個都是非常這個不恰當的另外我們最後就國會的聽證調查權部分來請教這個秘書長\n\n11:35.073 --> 11:58.760\n這一次就是我們可以成立調查委員會但是對我們的調查專案小組卻否定說可以成立另外對於政府人員提供資料或物件我們調查委員會要求他提出相關的資料並且要求我們人民出席作證等事項憲法法庭認為超出我們的權限因此違憲失效\n\n12:00.541 --> 12:21.763\n這個部分也否覺得大大的限縮我們立法院的一個權限所以我們認為說對於聽證調查權如果說我們在585號解釋所謂的說我們為了讓我們的國會讓我們的立法院他在行使權力的時候能夠更發揮他的一個效能\n\n12:22.364 --> 12:40.903\n所以也認定說我們可以有一個強制處分權可以予以行政處罰但是這一次連行政法都不可以所以把過去585號解釋所賦予我們立法院國會的一個功能把它完全取消掉大法官是不是在打臉自己啊\n\n12:44.457 --> 12:52.962\n585號解釋說我們有一個可以予以強制處罰的一個行政罰的一個權利但這一次說完全不可以牧長認為妥當嗎\n\n12:58.979 --> 13:17.134\n是不是打臉自己?很抱歉我大概不能針對這個做任何一個闡述啦我只能跟貴會報告當時在民國87年在研擬這個立法院職權行使法的時候當時沒有5號解釋只有3號、5號解釋\n\n13:20.197 --> 13:47.769\n所以當時的草擬的同事我是把他退回去因為他按照林委員佐水的議事規則的草案草擬來是有比較的規範跟文件調閱有點差異啦所以後來再重新再演繹變成現行的條文所以秘書長我想我們還是要說啦如果立法院的調查權沒有強制處分做後盾的話\n\n13:49.229 --> 14:17.772\n根本他就沒有辦法去拘束我們這些相關的這些官員他到立法院來作證或者到立法院來做相關的詢答的時候必須真實的去對我們的問題做出他的一個回答所以沒有強制處分權做後盾我想過去我們的立法的先進大家都說這等於說就是讓我們國會成為沒有牙齒的老虎\n\n14:19.194 --> 14:46.646\n這樣如何發揮我們監督制衡的功能所以大法官這樣的弱化我們的立法院立法權真的我們感到非常的不齒所以我們要就這個我們人事同意權的部分我想憲法法庭他雖然認定說我們可以經由提名的機關提出書面問題但是很奇怪的他就寬慎的說\n\n14:48.615 --> 15:09.527\n他不是這些對於書面的提問他不是必須回答這屬於人事審查的任意程序被提名人有權自行回答他可以自行決定他是否來回應這樣是不是進一步的讓我們的被提名人\n\n15:10.834 --> 15:30.063\n可以無視立法委員對他進行人事審查的一個監督的這樣的一個的一個情形所以才為我剛才講的是不是更進一步的去我們印證了我們一直講的這些大法官根本就是在弱化國會的審查權院長是不是不用回答可以不用回答\n\n15:39.513 --> 16:05.885\n我只能這樣說那你要不要回答不是我說那個啊我們對於我們立法院國會要求我們被提名人我們用書面質詢他的時候他可以不用回答嗎可以不用回答嗎我不是叫秘書長不要回答但是他的狀況是如果照憲法法庭的解釋就是有\n\n16:06.994 --> 16:35.054\n我們本身來決定他是不是同意權的狀況至於中間的過程他並沒有太過所以其實我要表達就是說其實我們這些大法官都是在踐踏我們的國會弱化我們的審查權未來如果這些大法官沒有就我們的不管是書面的一個詢答或者是我們在口頭問他的時候他拒絕提供相關的一些資料\n\n16:35.774 --> 16:41.001\n我想都是會作為我們未來行使同意權非常重要的參考依據以上謝謝秘書長謝謝林委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":12.218,"text":"謝謝主席 請秘書長哪一位秘書長我們周燕來秘書長請周秘書長 謝謝"},{"start":20.68,"end":31.397,"text":"秘書長早,我想這次大法官的判決出來其實我們對整個判決我們看到這些大法官他們不演了"},{"start":33.16,"end":61.354,"text":"我們看到大法官對於我們國會改革無法從他的判決裡面我們看到大開民主的倒車大法官充分的竭盡所能的向我們綠色執政來靠攏我要這個很生氣的說這些人真的是風骨蕩然無存泯滅他的學術良知"},{"start":63.325,"end":90.66,"text":"而且徹底的把我們立法權呢打了很大的一巴掌大法官根本就是執政黨的打手嘛根本就是賴清德總統的打手嘛我們看到整個不管是國情報告也好人事權的審查也好調查聽證權也好以及藐視國會罪以及相關反執權的規定"},{"start":92.571,"end":117.299,"text":"大法官雖然認為部分合憲但是實質上他就跟我們憲判字第第8號有關廢死的判決幾乎是差不多的意見實質上就是認為我們相關國會應該具備的制衡監督的武器就完全沒了就實質被廢除了"},{"start":118.815,"end":126.505,"text":"所以我們從判決裡面看到這些多麼沒有風骨是真的不具備專業的學術"},{"start":129.768,"end":154.959,"text":"還是說刻意的護航執政黨所以我們非常的遺憾也要提出大大的譴責首先秘書長我們來看一下國會的國情報告這部分剛才秘書長也講得很清楚現在因為憲法徵修條文裡面規定說我們立法院可以邀請總統到立法院來做國情報告"},{"start":155.979,"end":166.479,"text":"但是現在已經把97年修的法律啊15條2等於十字已經被廢掉了立法院邀請他他可以不用來是不是民主黨"},{"start":168.804,"end":183.094,"text":"是這樣的報告因為這個衍生我上次有在貴會報告這一個國情報告當時我很清楚的說明一個我自己書裡面自己也有寫過總統不像立法案負責不過依照當時的話"},{"start":187.625,"end":210.965,"text":"立法院有決定權不過這一次的第15條之後的第一項已經被宣告為違憲了所以相對的只有變成總統才可以到立法院報告他自己自行決定嘛自行報告不過有一點這裡面的條文還是要立法院同意的啦所以這個會轉入到目前所說的變成在"},{"start":212.186,"end":237.312,"text":"陳學遠總統的時候的93年跟95年的情況可能因為主席要寫這個困境吧所以我也思考了很久本來秘書長是沒有權利講這些話的因為本來是行政業務而已但是既然主席要這樣說所以我就請我們法治單位把整個做的復建在後各位可以參考"},{"start":238.012,"end":238.713,"text":"是,好,謝謝民主黨。實際上我想講的就是說因為這一次的認定總統"},{"start":254.181,"end":272.7,"text":"到這個國會來做國情報告已經讓他可以可以說總統啊自行決定總統對於題目他也可以自行決定立法院也不能要求設定題目那立法院要求他來他要不要做詢答也是由總統自己來做決定"},{"start":273.701,"end":287.737,"text":"所以我們認為這樣子的情況之下大法官認為說我們這個修正的條文是違反權力分立的原則這個我不禁就要想問到底中華民國現在是採行什麼樣的一個體制我們是不是雙手掌制啊"},{"start":293.567,"end":294.908,"text":"委員長你別說了啦 我也不為難你啦齁"},{"start":318.169,"end":343.588,"text":"其實我們就看很清楚的看到一點現在的總統根本就是有權無責現在行政院長是總統的幕僚長他的提名之後任命根本不用經過我們立法院的同意所以只有行政院長必須到立法院來做相關的一個備詢以及做這個整個施政的一個說明那總統躲在背後"},{"start":344.747,"end":369.963,"text":"所以我們這一次修法讓總統到立法院就他的施政的重大方針以及重要的政策到立法院來做說明以及報告並讓我們立法院的委員可以來對他做質詢監督那由總統來做回答這個才是一個民主政治我們可以直接對只有40%選出來的總統做直接的監督啊"},{"start":374.04,"end":394.914,"text":"現在大法官把這個都拿掉認為這個都不行那這個總統不是變成大總統嗎隨時專制獨裁他在躲在幕後他要怎麼樣子指揮他的幕僚長完全沒有責任這是責任政治嗎這符合民主法制嗎所以我們非常遺憾"},{"start":399.437,"end":418.588,"text":"具有憲政專精的這些大法官竟然做出這樣的一個憲法解釋所以我們覺得說這批大法官真的印證我們在之前所推論的就是律猶有完全向執政黨來靠攏"},{"start":420.66,"end":449.277,"text":"那姆長我想您在立法院服務也將近40年了你也將您這一生最精華的歲月都奉獻給國會我們都非常佩服所以我現在要講的就是說民進黨一直主張說我們在整個立法的過程中黑箱沒有討論但是我們在這一次的憲法的判決裡面對於這一個部分憲法法庭認定是合憲的"},{"start":450.942,"end":478.699,"text":"儘管他說在立法程序中有點瑕疵但是還是充分尊重我們國會自律的一個原則所以認定說這個沒有違憲所以還你一個清白啦所以我們很想問問說當時一直主張說我們這個整個程序違法然後號召這些青鳥還請很多的律師來連署說我們這個程序不合法"},{"start":480.479,"end":484.785,"text":"這些人是不是要向我們社會大眾來道歉?是不是要向秘書長道歉?"},{"start":486.826,"end":515.625,"text":"所以我覺得說真的是去把整個帶風向把整個導正我們國會的一個讓國會更具有一個武器能夠對我們的行政權加以監督制衡這麼好的一個國會改革無法把它誤導為是在踐踏行政權我們非常的遺憾從整個我們的行政整個立法程序裡面這次大法官認定是合法"},{"start":516.705,"end":535.856,"text":"完全沒有違憲所以我們真的要呼籲這些立法院的當時在批評這個法案是違背程序正義以及社會大眾受到誤導而認為違背程序正義我覺得他們真的要跟大家來道歉"},{"start":537.421,"end":553.506,"text":"另外我們對於這個反質詢的部分我想這次反質詢的部分當然那個我們的憲法判決認為說反質詢部分部分是核限但是我們也很遺憾的看到說他認為說"},{"start":555.458,"end":573.052,"text":"立法當官員在被質詢的時候他還是可以針對一些問題可以對立法委員來做反面的一個質詢可以做提問的一個問句秘書長正在你的專業你認為憲法法庭這樣的判決對嗎"},{"start":577.706,"end":603.841,"text":"他的理由上啊因為我的報告裡面所寫的是說他是回復到原來的這個條文啦增加是沒有啦沒有大概是大長小一個差那針對他這個緩之詢的這一個憲法所做的這一個理由上那這可能會構成到一個"},{"start":605.982,"end":613.615,"text":"被詢的人他可能的語氣他如果照憲法法庭所說的如果是這一個"},{"start":614.929,"end":628.998,"text":"如果這種情況的話就變成言語表達方法有可能只剩於禮儀上的爭執了,仍屬於立法院所以民主黨,這個部分未來在我們在委員跟這些官員來詢談的時候我們就認為這個就會助長官員的氣焰可能未來就會有很大的爭議"},{"start":642.168,"end":668.979,"text":"所以我們講其實我個人是覺得說反質詢的定義沒有什麼不確定的法律概念就是說官員你對於質詢你的人當立法院在質詢你的時候你就不得反過來質詢我們的立法院這個定義非常明確啊所以還可以去對立法院說反而提問來問你說委員請問你的看法是什麼可以這樣嗎"},{"start":670.822,"end":689.951,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個憲法法庭的這些大法官去刻意的去做反質詢做加以定義然後又去刻意向官員做靠攏說他也可以提問在某部分可以提問我覺得這個都是非常這個不恰當的另外我們最後就國會的聽證調查權部分來請教這個秘書長"},{"start":695.073,"end":718.76,"text":"這一次就是我們可以成立調查委員會但是對我們的調查專案小組卻否定說可以成立另外對於政府人員提供資料或物件我們調查委員會要求他提出相關的資料並且要求我們人民出席作證等事項憲法法庭認為超出我們的權限因此違憲失效"},{"start":720.541,"end":741.763,"text":"這個部分也否覺得大大的限縮我們立法院的一個權限所以我們認為說對於聽證調查權如果說我們在585號解釋所謂的說我們為了讓我們的國會讓我們的立法院他在行使權力的時候能夠更發揮他的一個效能"},{"start":742.364,"end":760.903,"text":"所以也認定說我們可以有一個強制處分權可以予以行政處罰但是這一次連行政法都不可以所以把過去585號解釋所賦予我們立法院國會的一個功能把它完全取消掉大法官是不是在打臉自己啊"},{"start":764.457,"end":772.962,"text":"585號解釋說我們有一個可以予以強制處罰的一個行政罰的一個權利但這一次說完全不可以牧長認為妥當嗎"},{"start":778.979,"end":797.134,"text":"是不是打臉自己?很抱歉我大概不能針對這個做任何一個闡述啦我只能跟貴會報告當時在民國87年在研擬這個立法院職權行使法的時候當時沒有5號解釋只有3號、5號解釋"},{"start":800.197,"end":827.769,"text":"所以當時的草擬的同事我是把他退回去因為他按照林委員佐水的議事規則的草案草擬來是有比較的規範跟文件調閱有點差異啦所以後來再重新再演繹變成現行的條文所以秘書長我想我們還是要說啦如果立法院的調查權沒有強制處分做後盾的話"},{"start":829.229,"end":857.772,"text":"根本他就沒有辦法去拘束我們這些相關的這些官員他到立法院來作證或者到立法院來做相關的詢答的時候必須真實的去對我們的問題做出他的一個回答所以沒有強制處分權做後盾我想過去我們的立法的先進大家都說這等於說就是讓我們國會成為沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":859.194,"end":886.646,"text":"這樣如何發揮我們監督制衡的功能所以大法官這樣的弱化我們的立法院立法權真的我們感到非常的不齒所以我們要就這個我們人事同意權的部分我想憲法法庭他雖然認定說我們可以經由提名的機關提出書面問題但是很奇怪的他就寬慎的說"},{"start":888.615,"end":909.527,"text":"他不是這些對於書面的提問他不是必須回答這屬於人事審查的任意程序被提名人有權自行回答他可以自行決定他是否來回應這樣是不是進一步的讓我們的被提名人"},{"start":910.834,"end":930.063,"text":"可以無視立法委員對他進行人事審查的一個監督的這樣的一個的一個情形所以才為我剛才講的是不是更進一步的去我們印證了我們一直講的這些大法官根本就是在弱化國會的審查權院長是不是不用回答可以不用回答"},{"start":939.513,"end":965.885,"text":"我只能這樣說那你要不要回答不是我說那個啊我們對於我們立法院國會要求我們被提名人我們用書面質詢他的時候他可以不用回答嗎可以不用回答嗎我不是叫秘書長不要回答但是他的狀況是如果照憲法法庭的解釋就是有"},{"start":966.994,"end":995.054,"text":"我們本身來決定他是不是同意權的狀況至於中間的過程他並沒有太過所以其實我要表達就是說其實我們這些大法官都是在踐踏我們的國會弱化我們的審查權未來如果這些大法官沒有就我們的不管是書面的一個詢答或者是我們在口頭問他的時候他拒絕提供相關的一些資料"},{"start":995.774,"end":1001.001,"text":"我想都是會作為我們未來行使同意權非常重要的參考依據以上謝謝秘書長謝謝林委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":222,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（9時42分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：哪一位秘書長？"],["林委員思銘：我們周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：好，請周秘書長，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長早。"],["周秘書長萬來：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：我想這一次大法官的判決出來，其實對整個判決，我們看到這些大法官他們不演了，我們看到大法官對於我們國會改革五法，從他的判決裡面，我們看到大開民主的倒車，大法官充分的、竭盡所能的向綠色執政靠攏，我很生氣的說，這些人真的是風骨蕩然無存、泯滅他的學術良知啊！而且澈底的把我們立法權打了很大的一巴掌，大法官根本就是執政黨的打手嘛！根本就是賴清德總統的打手嘛！","我們看到整個不管是國情報告也好、人事權的審查也好、調查聽證權也好、以及藐視國會罪、以及相關反質詢的規定，大法官雖然認為部分合憲，但是實質上他就跟憲判字第8號有關廢死的判決幾乎是差不多的意見，實質上就是認為國會相關應該具備制衡監督的武器就完全沒了，就實質被廢除了。所以我們從判決裡面看到這些是多麼地沒有風骨，是真的不具備學術的專業，還是說刻意的護航執政黨？所以我們非常的遺憾，也要提出大大的譴責。","首先，秘書長，我們來看一下國會的國情報告這一部分，剛才秘書長也講得很清楚，現在因為憲法增修條文裡面規定立法院可以邀請總統到立法院來做國情報告，但是現在已經把97年修的法律第十五條之二，等於實質已經被廢掉了，立法院邀請他，他可以不用來，是不是？秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：是這樣的，因為這個衍生我上次也在貴會報告關於這一個國情報告，當時我很清楚地說明，我自己書裡面也有寫過總統不向立法院負責，不過依照當時的法，立法院有決定權。不過這一次第十五條之二的第一項已經被宣告為違憲，所以相對的變成只有總統才可以來立法院報告……"],["林委員思銘：他自己自行決定嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：咨情報告，不過有一點，這裡面的條文還是要立法院同意的，所以這個會轉入到目前所說的變成在陳水扁總統時候的93年跟95年的情況，可能因為主席的題目是寫「困境」，所以我也思考了很久，本來秘書長是沒有權力講這些話的，因為本來是行政業務而已，但是既然主席要這樣說，所以我就請我們法制單位把整個做了附件放在後面，各位可以參考。依照那個條文，將來可能就變成若是陳總統時候93年跟95年的情況，可能都沒辦法到立法院來。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝秘書長。實際上我想講的就是，因為這一次的認定，總統到國會來做國情報告，已經可以說是讓總統自行決定；總統對於題目，他也可以自行決定，立法院也不能要求設定題目；立法院要求他來，他要不要做詢答，也是由總統自己來做決定。所以我們認為在這樣子的情況之下，大法官認為我們修正的條文是違反權力分立的原則，我不禁就想要問，到底中華民國現在是採行什麼樣的一個體制？秘書長，我們是不是雙首長制？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時在修憲過程當中，並不純然以法國的制度為基準啦！"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，這樣啦……"],["周秘書長萬來：所以現在你要……"],["林委員思銘：秘書長……"],["周秘書長萬來：委員問我目前是什麼制度……"],["林委員思銘：是，從你很專業的觀點來講……"],["周秘書長萬來：我沒辦法跟委員報告，因為它不是內閣制，也不是……"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，你不要說好了，我也不為難你，其實我們就很清楚地看到一點，現在的總統根本就是有權無責，現在行政院長是總統的幕僚長，他的提名之後，任命根本不用經過立法院的同意，所以只有行政院長必須到立法院來做相關的備詢以及做整個施政的說明，總統躲在背後，所以我們這次修法讓總統到立法院就他施政的重大方針以及重要政策到立法院來做說明及報告，並讓立法院的委員可以對他做質詢、監督，由總統來做回答。這個才是一個民主政治，我們可以直接對只有40%選出來的總統做直接的監督，現在大法官把這個都拿掉，認為這個都不行，那總統不是變成大總統嗎？隨時專制獨裁，他躲在幕後，他要怎麼樣子指揮他的幕僚長，完全沒有責任啊！這是責任政治嗎？這符合民主法治嗎？所以我們非常遺憾，具有憲政專精的這些大法官竟然做出這樣的一個憲法解釋，因此我們覺得這批大法官真的印證我們在之前所推論的，就是綠友友，完全向執政黨來靠攏。","秘書長，我想您在立法院服務也將近40年了，您也將您這一生最精華的歲月都奉獻給國會，我們都非常佩服，所以我現在要講的就是，民進黨一直主張說我們在整個立法的過程中黑箱、沒有討論，但是在這一次的憲法判決裡面，對於這一個部分憲法法庭認定是合憲的，儘管他說在立法程序中有點瑕疵，但是還是充分尊重國會自律的一個原則，所以認定這個沒有違憲，就是還你一個清白啦！我們很想問問，當時一直主張我們這整個程序違法，然後號召這些青鳥，還請很多的律師來連署，說我們這個程序不合法，這些人是不是要向我們社會大眾道歉？是不是要向秘書長道歉？所以我覺得這真的是在帶風向，導正我們整個國會，讓國會更具有一個武器，能夠對我們的行政權加以監督制衡，這麼好的一個國會改革五法，把它誤導為是在踐踏行政權，我們非常地遺憾。從我們整個立法程序裡面，這次大法官認定是合法，完全沒有違憲，所以我們真的要呼籲這些當時在立法院批評這個法案是違背程序正義，以及社會大眾受到誤導而認為違背程序正義，我覺得他們真的要跟大家來道歉。","另外，對於反質詢的部分，我想這次反質詢的部分，當然我們的憲法判決認為反質詢有部分是合憲的，但是我們也很遺憾地看到，它認為當官員在被質詢的時候他還是可以針對一些問題，對立法委員來做反面的一個質詢，可以做提問的問句。秘書長，站在你的專業，你認為憲法法庭這樣的判決，對嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：它的理由上，我只能跟林委員報告，我的報告裡面所寫的是，它是回復到原來的這一個條文，增加是沒有啦，大概就是大同小異。針對反質詢的部分，憲法法庭所做的這一個理由上，這可能會構成備詢的人，他的語氣，如果照憲法法庭所說的，如果有這一種情況的話，就變成言語表達上，可能只剩禮儀上的爭執，仍屬對於立法委員質詢的答復。"],["林委員思銘：所以秘書長……"],["周秘書長萬來：我只能按照憲法法庭……"],["林委員思銘：這個部分未來我們委員跟這些官員在詢答的時候，我們認為這個會助長官員的氣焰，可能未來就會有很大的爭議啊！其實我個人是覺得反質詢的定義沒有什麼不確定的法律概念，就是說官員對於質詢你的人，當立法委員在質詢你的時候，你就不得反過來質詢我們立法委員，這個定義非常明確啊！所以反而還可以去對立法委員提問，來問你說：委員，請問你的看法是什麼？可以這樣嗎？所以我是覺得憲法法庭的這些大法官，刻意地將反質詢加以定義，然後又刻意地向官員靠攏，說他也可以提問，在某部分可以提問，我覺得這個都是非常不恰當的。","我們最後就國會聽證調查權的部分來請教秘書長，就是這一次我們可以成立調查委員會，但是對於我們的調查專案小組卻否定可以成立。另外，對於政府人員提供資料或物件，我們調查委員會要求他提出相關的資料，並且要求人民出席作證等事項，憲法法庭認為這超出我們的權限，因此違憲、失效，這個部分也否決了、大大地限縮我們立法院的一個權限，所以我們認為對於聽證調查權，如果第585號解釋為了讓我們的國會、讓我們立法院在行使權力的時候，能夠更發揮它的一個效能，所以也認定我們可以有一個強制處分權，可以予以行政處罰，但是這一次連行政罰都不可以，所以把過去第585號解釋所賦予我們立法院、國會的一個功能，把它完全取消掉，大法官是不是在打臉自己啊？第585號解釋說我們有一個可以予以強制處罰的行政罰的權力，但這一次說完全不可以，秘書長你認為妥當嗎？是不是打臉自己？"],["周秘書長萬來：很抱歉，我大概不能針對這個做任何的闡述，我只能跟各位報告，民國87年在研擬立法院職權行使法的時候，當時沒有第585號解釋，只有第325號解釋，所以當時我是把他退回去給草擬的同事，因為他按照林委員濁水的議事規則的草案草擬的規範，跟文件調閱有點差異啦！所以後來重新再研擬變成現行的條文。"],["林委員思銘：是，秘書長，我想我們還是要說，如果立法院的調查權沒有強制處分做後盾的話，根本就沒有辦法去拘束這些相關的官員，他到立法院來作證或者到立法院來做相關詢答的時候，必須真實的對我們的問題做出他的回答，所以沒有強制處分權做後盾，我想過去我們立法的先進大家都說，這等於是讓我們國會成為沒有牙齒的老虎啊！這樣如何發揮我們監督制衡的功能？所以大法官這樣弱化我們立法院立法權，我們真的感到非常的不齒。","最後，我們要就人事同意權的部分，我想憲法法庭雖然認定我們可以經由提名的機關提出書面問題，但是很奇怪的，他就寬限的說對於這些書面的提問，不是必須回答，這屬於人事審查的任意程序，被提名人有權可以自行決定是否來回應，這樣是不是進一步的讓被提名人可以無視立法委員對他進行人事審查監督的這樣一個情形？所以才會有我剛才講的，是不是更進一步的去印證了我們一直講的，這些大法官根本就是在弱化國會的審查權，秘書長，是不是？不用回答啊？可以不用回答啊？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只能這樣說……"],["主席：要不要回答？"],["林委員思銘：不是，我是說，對於立法院國會要求被提名人，我們用書面質詢他的時候，他可以不用回答喔？"],["主席：喔，是疑問句喔！"],["林委員思銘：可以不用回答嗎？我不是叫秘書長不要回答。"],["主席：我以為你叫秘書長不要回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：現在的狀況是如果照憲法法庭的解釋，就是由我們本身來決定他是不是同意權的狀況，至於中間的過程，他並沒有太過……"],["林委員思銘：所以我要表達就是其實這些大法官都是在踐踏我們的國會、弱化我們的審查權，未來如果這些大法官沒有就我們提出的，不管是書面的詢答，或者是我們在口頭問他的時候，他拒絕提供相關的一些資料，我想都是作為我們未來行使同意權非常重要的參考依據啦！以上。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長，謝謝林委員。抱歉，剛剛把你質疑的疑問句聽成了命令句。","接下來我們有請沈委員發惠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}}