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{\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 855.38, \"end\": 855.56, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"禁\", \"start\": 855.56, \"end\": 855.74, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 855.74, \"end\": 855.84, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 855.84, \"end\": 856.301, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 856.301, \"end\": 856.401, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 856.401, \"end\": 856.801, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 856.801, \"end\": 858.442, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 858.442, \"end\": 858.602, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 858.602, \"end\": 858.622, \"score\": 0.925}]}, {\"start\": 859.704, \"end\": 859.964, \"text\": \"至於罰還\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 859.704, \"end\": 859.944, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 859.944, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 1023.511, \"end\": 1023.732, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1023.732, \"end\": 1023.753, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:19,489 --> 00:00:47,261\n主席,我請周秘書長有請周秘書長主席,沈委員好秘書長好我想我今天原本是準備了蠻大一段希望說能夠讓社會清楚說這次的憲判第9號到底是什麼樣的內容因為從禮拜五宣判到現在\n\n2\n00:00:48,715 --> 00:01:09,104\n我們只看在媒體上面我們看到的就是罵說啊這個是綠油油啊這個解釋對不對也看到說啊這個解釋很好但是到底解釋內容是什麼一般人民其實真的是不太清楚我本來準備了蠻長的一段齁我希望說在這裡這個有一個機會齁跟大家來跟國人齁好好的來分析這是大法官會議解釋的這一些\n\n3\n00:01:12,125 --> 00:01:34,809\n這到底哪些部分合憲哪些部分違憲但是剛才這個聽到這個兩個不同的在野黨的委員在這裡所提的一些指控大概不出這兩天在新聞上面的他們的發言的情緒我就覺得是滿遺憾而且覺得有一些東西好像不回應不回應好像又怪怪的又要花掉我的一些時間來回應這個他們剛才的這些說法\n\n4\n00:01:39,381 --> 00:02:03,853\n其實首先就先針對這個剛才林思敏就是林思敏委員講的啦好像很替我們偉大的這個周萬來秘書長抱屈啦說這個當初這個審查的時候啊民進黨指責你指責這個程序有問題啦齁等等結果憲法判決說這個程序是合憲的並沒有違憲所以民進黨應該跟你道歉民進黨是不是這樣\n\n5\n00:02:07,484 --> 00:02:35,492\n是每一個委員每一個人的發言的情況跟我...我個人沒有什麼...我知道啦你也沒辦法評論啦但是我...但是我講的如果有錯你可以指責我沒有關係啦我不會暇願報復啦我也不會懷恨在心啦但是這個...這個...林士兵委員他有講說因為舊程序的部分這個...這個...憲法法庭認為沒有違憲的問題但是憲法法庭裡面卻有這段文字就舊程序的部分他說\n\n6\n00:02:37,517 --> 00:02:59,097\n他說這次的這個立法程序實難謂無瑕疵這個在這個你如果要查在第71段他說其立法程序難謂無瑕疵第73段又講一次他說這個自發生立法程序之瑕疵第75段又講一次立法程序雖存有瑕疵\n\n7\n00:03:01,028 --> 00:03:21,396\n因為憲法法庭是說你這個齁你不能說這樣子程序是違憲齁但是有瑕疵重大瑕疵憲法法庭直接提了所以民進黨說這個有瑕疵有什麼不對民進黨說這個程序有瑕疵有什麼不對我們說這次立法的立法結果內容是違憲而程序是瑕疵有什麼不對秘書長我剛唸的是不是憲法法庭的判決裡面我們捏造了哪一個字\n\n8\n00:03:27,714 --> 00:03:49,286\n沒有是不是啦我問你我剛剛念的是不是憲法法判決的主文裡面的那是法院裡面他的審查規定裡面但是他認為這個還沒有被理造重大瑕疵吧所以他是但是我剛才念的是不是判決主文啦我要報告一下因為這個是國會自立的範疇對國會自立的範疇但是我可以讓我說明嗎\n\n9\n00:03:55,729 --> 00:04:17,379\n你這個算不算反質詢?剛才林思敏說你可以用這種疑問句,照國民黨的定義,疑問句就是反質詢嗎?沒有,我是要請求你同意我才能說明我並不是反質詢的概念啦。對嘛,所以大法官對反質詢做了很清楚的定義嘛,對不對?這個不算反質詢,我沒有說你這反質詢。但是你照國民黨他們的定義,你剛剛這樣就反質詢吧?\n\n10\n00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:29,994\n我要說清楚我剛才練的狀況剛才所說的我是要請求你同意讓我說明如果你不同意我不會再講下去嘛所以大法官他的解釋現在讓我跳到這個反質詢了\n\n11\n00:04:37,423 --> 00:04:48,117\n大法官的解釋對反質詢定義非常清楚啊就是說除非你是這個主客議位你這個主客議位之後並不是用疑問去反質詢這樣子的解釋有什麼不對呢\n\n12\n00:04:55,427 --> 00:05:24,017\n這一次剛才齁這個前面的委員一直大概兩位委員都一直在講說這大法官會議的解釋齁這個欸不是這個憲法判決齁拔了立法院的牙齁這個剝奪國會的欸立法院的職權然後這個是中華民國憲法的法學齁大法官這個是獨一無二的法學但是這一次的憲法判決他所有的憲法判決他的憲法他的依據都是中華民國憲法本文以及徵修條文\n\n13\n00:05:26,144 --> 00:05:43,190\n是誰拔了立法院的牙不是這次的大法官拔立法院的牙是孫文、孫中山拔立法院的牙你們講說外國的國會都可以幹嘛不是啊我們台灣的憲法就不是外國的三權分立嘛台灣的憲法就把立法院一些職權\n\n14\n00:05:45,453 --> 00:05:50,555\n沈文親自寫說我們應該要把立法院的職權要剝奪以避免國會獨大你去三民主義裡面講啦國外的這個國會有這個國會獨大的問題所以我把立法權裡面的監察權等等這些權利我把它拿掉啊這是沈文講的這不是大法官講的嘛\n\n15\n00:06:06,667 --> 00:06:27,824\n那所以把國會的牙打立法院巴掌的不是這次的大法官嘛就是我們的憲法規定設計就是這樣子嘛憲法設計就是限制立法院的權利使立法院不向外國國會用那麼大的權利嘛但我不是說這個五權憲法好啦所以大家如果對這個真的有意見認為說不應該國會不應該這樣子那就大家來修憲嘛\n\n16\n00:06:33,732 --> 00:07:01,497\n大家來修憲把憲法改成我們希望的這樣子的國會的制度吧而不是說在現在的憲法之下人家大法官針對依據現在憲法徵修條文規定你立法院有什麼權力總統有什麼義務行政權有什麼義務這都在憲法本文跟徵修條文寫得一清二楚這個憲法判決判決說按照這一條這個條文的文字所以\n\n17\n00:07:02,657 --> 00:07:30,797\n立法權有什麼權利行政權它有什麼義務總統有什麼義務都是按照這個憲法跟憲法中間條文的文字在解釋的嘛所以如果對這個有意見就來修憲啊怎麼會去怪大法官從頭到尾我再講一遍中華民國憲法我引用他們剛剛講的話中華民國憲法的法學是獨一無二的這不是這個沒有錯這個我同意但這個獨一無二不是大法官\n\n18\n00:07:31,940 --> 00:07:39,527\n解釋獨一無二而是我們的憲法體制在當初孫文武權憲法這種咚咚他就是獨一無二啦這一次齁你看害我這個都這樣都沒有時間剛才在回答齁說這個有委員提到說所以以後立法院邀請總統來國情報告是違憲的你還回答是\n\n19\n00:07:59,571 --> 00:08:27,727\n我們立法院邀請沒有違憲啊甚至我們立法我們自己這第15條之一第一項我們要求他每年來報告這個都合憲啊對不對這次解釋文都合憲對不對只是只是按照中華民國憲法徵修條及徵修條文總統沒有這個義務你立法院要邀請當然合憲啊你立法院有權邀請啊但是我們的徵修條文規定就是總統\n\n20\n00:08:30,429 --> 00:08:54,006\n這個這個總統他要來不來是由總統來決定這不是不是立法不是這次大法官憲法判決把總統的權力擴大了變成太上總統不是是我們原本的憲政體制總統就不是向立法院負責嗎今天我們自己立一個法說要總統來向立法院負責但憲法裡面沒有啊憲法裡面向立法院負責的是行政院啊不是總統啊\n\n21\n00:08:56,969 --> 00:09:15,833\n這這麼簡、這麼清楚的問題然後現在把他賴到來給大法官破曬、破死說大法官是因為這樣他讓總統變成太上總統不是,總統什麼時候變太上總統中華民國徵修條文從這個憲法修改完了之後我們憲法總統的職權就是這樣子啊所以這個我想這一次我們看到這個\n\n22\n00:09:22,921 --> 00:09:36,829\n社會上在野黨這個氣急敗壞一直不斷地在抹黑就從判決出來之後其實判決之前就開始了一直在抹黑大法官說這個綠油油啦這個都是聽命於賴清德啊從判決之前就開始抹黑\n\n23\n00:09:42,185 --> 00:09:53,308\n為什麼會這樣氣急敗壞因為這一次齁其實這一次被宣告違憲的條文在過去齁不管從大法官會議解釋一直到憲法判決其實是數量非常多可以說是以前沒有這麼多條文被判決這個違憲\n\n24\n00:10:01,308 --> 00:10:15,173\n但是聽起來這樣所以在野黨看了說哇這麼多條文被宣告違憲但是相對的這一次宣告合憲的條文其實這次申請裡面宣告合憲的條文其實比宣告違憲的條文還多了這一部有一些是合憲的有一些是違憲的\n\n25\n00:10:21,257 --> 00:10:30,982\n那你不能只看到說啊這違憲的這麼多是因為這次申請條文這麼多很多都是新創設的那為什麼會有這麼多被宣告合憲有的這麼多被宣告違憲呢這個其實就是剛剛所講的立法瑕疵裡面的我們的立法過於倉促沒有充分討論才就讓這樣的法案送出去所以最後會導致這樣的結果\n\n26\n00:10:47,912 --> 00:11:02,663\n你說要充分討論我不是講說在院會本來過去從過去到現在在院會要討論也很困難要充分在院會充分討論本來就很困難但是在本委員會司法法制委員會裡面沒有讓在司法法制委員會裡面充分的討論那個時候連大體討論也沒有連主條討論也沒有連到底這個條文要不要保留都有主席裁決而沒有讓現場的委員來議決\n\n27\n00:11:19,537 --> 00:11:39,355\n就是因為沒有充分討論最後結果才會有這麼多的違憲條文所以違憲條文這麼多合憲的條文也這麼多不是大法官有什麼偏見而是我們這次申請的條文就這麼多申請這個憲法判決條文就這麼多裡面大法官甚至合憲的還比違憲的還多這個\n\n28\n00:11:44,957 --> 00:11:47,658\n剛剛還有講說這次大法官的判決這個穿透力非常強不只是針對這次申請的條文他甚至到以前的條文穿透到以前的條文這不是廢話嗎日文說當然的啊所有憲法判決的解釋他當然回縮到過去全部的法律啊\n\n29\n00:12:08,936 --> 00:12:31,003\n他當然是針對所有的相關的法條,通通他的效力當然都急於這些啦,這個不是廢話,這有什麼好指責的,連這個都拿出來講,好像說這些大法官的解釋是多麼罪惡,多麼罪大惡極的,這種都是抹黑啦,在我來看都是對於台灣未來的民主體制都是傷害。\n\n30\n00:12:32,533 --> 00:12:58,812\n這種不就事論事然後把這個機關把這些憲政機關隨便的任意貼上標籤把他這個污名化到最後所有的所有的中華民國體制機關全部都被你污名化了全部都是民進黨的全部都是綠油油只有立法院是正義之師等到未來民主體制不是民主體制不是要運作這4年欸是未來台灣中華民國百年欸\n\n31\n00:13:01,638 --> 00:13:25,528\n未來換人執政換什麼這些都被污名化了以後大法官會議也是混蛋大法官會議做的解釋他社會公信力何在以後監察院也是混蛋考試院是混蛋都是綠色這樣子來抹黑抹黑將這個憲政機關標籤化這樣的做法我認為非常惡劣對台灣民主政治是傷害就事論事嘛\n\n32\n00:13:31,673 --> 00:13:54,050\n這次所做的這些解釋不管是對總統國情的報告他也說這個就是立法院的權利合憲的就是合憲違憲的就是違憲因為現行的中華民國憲法立法院是他有被動的權利但是總統他沒有義務這個是現在徵求條文裡面的規定他就依這個規定條文來做解釋說這個這個\n\n33\n00:13:59,732 --> 00:14:18,622\n這裏哪一些規定是合憲哪一些規定是違憲這個很清楚就總統國情報告的部分對於質詢權的部分他也講得很清楚他說禁止反質詢是合憲的他沒有說禁止反質詢違憲他禁止反質詢是合憲的但是\n\n34\n00:14:19,704 --> 00:14:19,964\n至於罰還\n\n35\n00:14:44,676 --> 00:15:00,973\n因為質詢內容回答而加以罰還這個是違憲的這個也宣告了這個非經主席同意拒絕提供資訊及其他藐視國會行為這些也是違憲的有關人事同意權的部分他基本上延續4至第6、6、3、2號的解釋\n\n36\n00:15:04,073 --> 00:15:27,547\n他說審查你要怎麼審查要他提什麼東西這個都是立法院自律事項這個都是合憲的他沒有說這都是違憲大部分這些條文都是合憲的你要幾天召開這個委員會你要他提供什麼這些都是合憲的但是這些被提名人他還不是公職所以他沒有這個義務這個是你現在對沒有義務的人可以罰還這個\n\n37\n00:15:33,103 --> 00:15:51,656\n是違憲的這個都講得很清楚最重要的一句話因為時間的關係我後面的這些有關調查權聽證會表示國會我就不談了但是人事同意最後講這句話最重要的在人事同意解釋他說立法院剛剛講的這些都合憲喔都合憲都沒有全部違憲\n\n38\n00:15:52,844 --> 00:16:05,112\n但是最重要的延續4至6、3、2號的解釋他說立法院不得以程序的規定變相的限制剝奪立法委員行使投票行使表決的權利\n\n39\n00:16:06,957 --> 00:16:28,270\n你可以用很多程序來規定不行的要他交承諾書要他提報告這個都合憲但是你不能夠剝奪其他立法委員每一個立法委員要行使這個同意權的權利不能用程序來剝奪也就是說你不能用這些程序來不進行同意權的投票這講得非常清楚啦還有很多的我覺得\n\n40\n00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:51,327\n大家就事論事啦我今天認為主席安排這樣子的專案報告就是個機會讓我們在這裡立法院大家就事論事真理越辯越明把它講清楚這個我們還要立法委員說這個大法官憲法判決立法院沒有遵守的義務秘書長立法院有沒有遵守憲法判決的義務因為他有權機關\n\n41\n00:17:01,721 --> 00:17:03,753\n以上謝謝秘書長謝謝沈委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n19489\t47261\t主席,我請周秘書長有請周秘書長主席,沈委員好秘書長好我想我今天原本是準備了蠻大一段希望說能夠讓社會清楚說這次的憲判第9號到底是什麼樣的內容因為從禮拜五宣判到現在\n48715\t69104\t我們只看在媒體上面我們看到的就是罵說啊這個是綠油油啊這個解釋對不對也看到說啊這個解釋很好但是到底解釋內容是什麼一般人民其實真的是不太清楚我本來準備了蠻長的一段齁我希望說在這裡這個有一個機會齁跟大家來跟國人齁好好的來分析這是大法官會議解釋的這一些\n72125\t94809\t這到底哪些部分合憲哪些部分違憲但是剛才這個聽到這個兩個不同的在野黨的委員在這裡所提的一些指控大概不出這兩天在新聞上面的他們的發言的情緒我就覺得是滿遺憾而且覺得有一些東西好像不回應不回應好像又怪怪的又要花掉我的一些時間來回應這個他們剛才的這些說法\n99381\t123853\t其實首先就先針對這個剛才林思敏就是林思敏委員講的啦好像很替我們偉大的這個周萬來秘書長抱屈啦說這個當初這個審查的時候啊民進黨指責你指責這個程序有問題啦齁等等結果憲法判決說這個程序是合憲的並沒有違憲所以民進黨應該跟你道歉民進黨是不是這樣\n127484\t155492\t是每一個委員每一個人的發言的情況跟我...我個人沒有什麼...我知道啦你也沒辦法評論啦但是我...但是我講的如果有錯你可以指責我沒有關係啦我不會暇願報復啦我也不會懷恨在心啦但是這個...這個...林士兵委員他有講說因為舊程序的部分這個...這個...憲法法庭認為沒有違憲的問題但是憲法法庭裡面卻有這段文字就舊程序的部分他說\n157517\t179097\t他說這次的這個立法程序實難謂無瑕疵這個在這個你如果要查在第71段他說其立法程序難謂無瑕疵第73段又講一次他說這個自發生立法程序之瑕疵第75段又講一次立法程序雖存有瑕疵\n181028\t201396\t因為憲法法庭是說你這個齁你不能說這樣子程序是違憲齁但是有瑕疵重大瑕疵憲法法庭直接提了所以民進黨說這個有瑕疵有什麼不對民進黨說這個程序有瑕疵有什麼不對我們說這次立法的立法結果內容是違憲而程序是瑕疵有什麼不對秘書長我剛唸的是不是憲法法庭的判決裡面我們捏造了哪一個字\n207714\t229286\t沒有 是不是啦 我問你我剛剛念的是不是憲法法判決的主文裡面的那是法院裡面他的審查規定裡面但是他認為這個還沒有被理造重大瑕疵吧所以他是但是我剛才念的是不是判決主文啦我要報告一下因為這個是國會自立的範疇對 國會自立的範疇但是我可以讓我說明嗎\n235729\t257379\t你這個算不算反質詢?剛才林思敏說你可以用這種疑問句,照國民黨的定義,疑問句就是反質詢嗎?沒有,我是要請求你同意我才能說明我並不是反質詢的概念啦。對嘛,所以大法官對反質詢做了很清楚的定義嘛,對不對?這個不算反質詢,我沒有說你這反質詢。但是你照國民黨他們的定義,你剛剛這樣就反質詢吧?\n259080\t269994\t我要說清楚我剛才練的狀況剛才所說的我是要請求你同意讓我說明如果你不同意我不會再講下去嘛所以大法官他的解釋現在讓我跳到這個反質詢了\n277423\t288117\t大法官的解釋對反質詢定義非常清楚啊就是說除非你是這個主客議位你這個主客議位之後並不是用疑問去反質詢這樣子的解釋有什麼不對呢\n295427\t324017\t這一次剛才齁這個前面的委員一直大概兩位委員都一直在講說這大法官會議的解釋齁這個欸不是這個憲法判決齁拔了立法院的牙齁這個剝奪國會的欸立法院的職權然後這個是中華民國憲法的法學齁大法官這個是獨一無二的法學但是這一次的憲法判決他所有的憲法判決他的憲法他的依據都是中華民國憲法本文以及徵修條文\n326144\t343190\t是誰拔了立法院的牙不是這次的大法官拔立法院的牙是孫文、孫中山拔立法院的牙你們講說外國的國會都可以幹嘛不是啊我們台灣的憲法就不是外國的三權分立嘛台灣的憲法就把立法院一些職權\n345453\t350555\t沈文親自寫說我們應該要把立法院的職權要剝奪以避免國會獨大你去三民主義裡面講啦國外的這個國會有這個國會獨大的問題所以我把立法權裡面的監察權等等這些權利我把它拿掉啊這是沈文講的這不是大法官講的嘛\n366667\t387824\t那所以把國會的牙打立法院巴掌的不是這次的大法官嘛就是我們的憲法規定設計就是這樣子嘛憲法設計就是限制立法院的權利使立法院不向外國國會用那麼大的權利嘛但我不是說這個五權憲法好啦所以大家如果對這個真的有意見認為說不應該國會不應該這樣子那就大家來修憲嘛\n393732\t421497\t大家來修憲把憲法改成我們希望的這樣子的國會的制度吧而不是說在現在的憲法之下人家大法官針對依據現在憲法徵修條文規定你立法院有什麼權力總統有什麼義務行政權有什麼義務這都在憲法本文跟徵修條文寫得一清二楚這個憲法判決判決說按照這一條這個條文的文字所以\n422657\t450797\t立法權有什麼權利行政權它有什麼義務總統有什麼義務都是按照這個憲法跟憲法中間條文的文字在解釋的嘛所以如果對這個有意見就來修憲啊怎麼會去怪大法官從頭到尾我再講一遍中華民國憲法我引用他們剛剛講的話中華民國憲法的法學是獨一無二的這不是 這個沒有錯 這個我同意但這個獨一無二不是大法官\n451940\t459527\t解釋獨一無二而是我們的憲法體制在當初孫文武權憲法這種咚咚他就是獨一無二啦這一次齁你看害我這個都這樣都沒有時間剛才在回答齁說這個有委員提到說所以以後立法院邀請總統來國情報告是違憲的你還回答是\n479571\t507727\t我們立法院邀請沒有違憲啊甚至我們立法我們自己這第15條之一第一項我們要求他每年來報告這個都合憲啊對不對這次解釋文都合憲對不對只是只是按照中華民國憲法徵修條及徵修條文總統沒有這個義務你立法院要邀請當然合憲啊你立法院有權邀請啊但是我們的徵修條文規定就是總統\n510429\t534006\t這個這個總統他要來不來是由總統來決定這不是不是立法不是這次大法官憲法判決把總統的權力擴大了變成太上總統不是是我們原本的憲政體制總統就不是向立法院負責嗎今天我們自己立一個法說要總統來向立法院負責但憲法裡面沒有啊憲法裡面向立法院負責的是行政院啊不是總統啊\n536969\t555833\t這這麼簡、這麼清楚的問題然後現在把他賴到來給大法官破曬、破死說大法官是因為這樣他讓總統變成太上總統不是,總統什麼時候變太上總統中華民國徵修條文從這個憲法修改完了之後我們憲法總統的職權就是這樣子啊所以這個我想這一次我們看到這個\n562921\t576829\t社會上在野黨這個氣急敗壞一直不斷地在抹黑就從判決出來之後其實判決之前就開始了一直在抹黑大法官說這個綠油油啦這個都是聽命於賴清德啊從判決之前就開始抹黑\n582185\t593308\t為什麼會這樣氣急敗壞因為這一次齁其實這一次被宣告違憲的條文在過去齁不管從大法官會議解釋一直到憲法判決其實是數量非常多可以說是以前沒有這麼多條文被判決這個違憲\n601308\t615173\t但是聽起來這樣所以在野黨看了說哇這麼多條文被宣告違憲但是相對的這一次宣告合憲的條文其實這次申請裡面宣告合憲的條文其實比宣告違憲的條文還多了這一部有一些是合憲的有一些是違憲的\n621257\t630982\t那你不能只看到說啊這違憲的這麼多是因為這次申請條文這麼多很多都是新創設的那為什麼會有這麼多被宣告合憲有的這麼多被宣告違憲呢這個其實就是剛剛所講的立法瑕疵裡面的我們的立法過於倉促沒有充分討論才就讓這樣的法案送出去所以最後會導致這樣的結果\n647912\t662663\t你說要充分討論我不是講說在院會本來過去從過去到現在在院會要討論也很困難要充分在院會充分討論本來就很困難但是在本委員會司法法制委員會裡面沒有讓在司法法制委員會裡面充分的討論那個時候連大體討論也沒有連主條討論也沒有連到底這個條文要不要保留都有主席裁決而沒有讓現場的委員來議決\n679537\t699355\t就是因為沒有充分討論最後結果才會有這麼多的違憲條文所以違憲條文這麼多合憲的條文也這麼多不是大法官有什麼偏見而是我們這次申請的條文就這麼多申請這個憲法判決條文就這麼多裡面大法官甚至合憲的還比違憲的還多這個\n704957\t707658\t剛剛還有講說這次大法官的判決這個穿透力非常強不只是針對這次申請的條文他甚至到以前的條文穿透到以前的條文這不是廢話嗎日文說當然的啊所有憲法判決的解釋他當然回縮到過去全部的法律啊\n728936\t751003\t他當然是針對所有的相關的法條,通通他的效力當然都急於這些啦,這個不是廢話,這有什麼好指責的,連這個都拿出來講,好像說這些大法官的解釋是多麼罪惡,多麼罪大惡極的,這種都是抹黑啦,在我來看都是對於台灣未來的民主體制都是傷害。\n752533\t778812\t這種不就事論事然後把這個機關把這些憲政機關隨便的任意貼上標籤把他這個污名化到最後所有的所有的中華民國體制機關全部都被你污名化了全部都是民進黨的全部都是綠油油只有立法院是正義之師等到未來民主體制不是民主體制不是要運作這4年欸是未來台灣中華民國百年欸\n781638\t805528\t未來換人執政換什麼這些都被污名化了以後大法官會議也是混蛋大法官會議做的解釋他社會公信力何在以後監察院也是混蛋考試院是混蛋都是綠色這樣子來抹黑抹黑將這個憲政機關標籤化這樣的做法我認為非常惡劣對台灣民主政治是傷害就事論事嘛\n811673\t834050\t這次所做的這些解釋不管是對總統國情的報告他也說這個就是立法院的權利合憲的就是合憲違憲的就是違憲因為現行的中華民國憲法立法院是他有被動的權利但是總統他沒有義務這個是現在徵求條文裡面的規定他就依這個規定條文來做解釋說這個這個\n839732\t858622\t這裏哪一些規定是合憲哪一些規定是違憲這個很清楚就總統國情報告的部分對於質詢權的部分他也講得很清楚他說禁止反質詢是合憲的他沒有說禁止反質詢違憲他禁止反質詢是合憲的但是\n859704\t859964\t至於罰還\n884676\t900973\t因為質詢內容回答而加以罰還這個是違憲的這個也宣告了這個非經主席同意拒絕提供資訊及其他藐視國會行為這些也是違憲的有關人事同意權的部分他基本上延續4至第6、6、3、2號的解釋\n904073\t927547\t他說審查你要怎麼審查要他提什麼東西這個都是立法院自律事項這個都是合憲的他沒有說這都是違憲大部分這些條文都是合憲的你要幾天召開這個委員會你要他提供什麼這些都是合憲的但是這些被提名人他還不是公職所以他沒有這個義務這個是你現在對沒有義務的人可以罰還這個\n933103\t951656\t是違憲的這個都講得很清楚最重要的一句話因為時間的關係我後面的這些有關調查權聽證會表示國會我就不談了但是人事同意最後講這句話最重要的在人事同意解釋他說立法院剛剛講的這些都合憲喔都合憲都沒有全部違憲\n952844\t965112\t但是最重要的延續4至6、3、2號的解釋他說立法院不得以程序的規定變相的限制剝奪立法委員行使投票行使表決的權利\n966957\t988270\t你可以用很多程序來規定不行的要他交承諾書要他提報告這個都合憲但是你不能夠剝奪其他立法委員每一個立法委員要行使這個同意權的權利不能用程序來剝奪也就是說你不能用這些程序來不進行同意權的投票這講得非常清楚啦還有很多的我覺得\n993700\t1011327\t大家就事論事啦我今天認為主席安排這樣子的專案報告就是個機會讓我們在這裡立法院大家就事論事真理越辯越明把它講清楚這個我們還要立法委員說這個大法官憲法判決立法院沒有遵守的義務秘書長立法院有沒有遵守憲法判決的義務因為他有權機關\n1021721\t1023753\t以上謝謝秘書長 謝謝沈委員\n","txt":"主席,我請周秘書長有請周秘書長主席,沈委員好秘書長好我想我今天原本是準備了蠻大一段希望說能夠讓社會清楚說這次的憲判第9號到底是什麼樣的內容因為從禮拜五宣判到現在\n我們只看在媒體上面我們看到的就是罵說啊這個是綠油油啊這個解釋對不對也看到說啊這個解釋很好但是到底解釋內容是什麼一般人民其實真的是不太清楚我本來準備了蠻長的一段齁我希望說在這裡這個有一個機會齁跟大家來跟國人齁好好的來分析這是大法官會議解釋的這一些\n這到底哪些部分合憲哪些部分違憲但是剛才這個聽到這個兩個不同的在野黨的委員在這裡所提的一些指控大概不出這兩天在新聞上面的他們的發言的情緒我就覺得是滿遺憾而且覺得有一些東西好像不回應不回應好像又怪怪的又要花掉我的一些時間來回應這個他們剛才的這些說法\n其實首先就先針對這個剛才林思敏就是林思敏委員講的啦好像很替我們偉大的這個周萬來秘書長抱屈啦說這個當初這個審查的時候啊民進黨指責你指責這個程序有問題啦齁等等結果憲法判決說這個程序是合憲的並沒有違憲所以民進黨應該跟你道歉民進黨是不是這樣\n是每一個委員每一個人的發言的情況跟我...我個人沒有什麼...我知道啦你也沒辦法評論啦但是我...但是我講的如果有錯你可以指責我沒有關係啦我不會暇願報復啦我也不會懷恨在心啦但是這個...這個...林士兵委員他有講說因為舊程序的部分這個...這個...憲法法庭認為沒有違憲的問題但是憲法法庭裡面卻有這段文字就舊程序的部分他說\n他說這次的這個立法程序實難謂無瑕疵這個在這個你如果要查在第71段他說其立法程序難謂無瑕疵第73段又講一次他說這個自發生立法程序之瑕疵第75段又講一次立法程序雖存有瑕疵\n因為憲法法庭是說你這個齁你不能說這樣子程序是違憲齁但是有瑕疵重大瑕疵憲法法庭直接提了所以民進黨說這個有瑕疵有什麼不對民進黨說這個程序有瑕疵有什麼不對我們說這次立法的立法結果內容是違憲而程序是瑕疵有什麼不對秘書長我剛唸的是不是憲法法庭的判決裡面我們捏造了哪一個字\n沒有 是不是啦 我問你我剛剛念的是不是憲法法判決的主文裡面的那是法院裡面他的審查規定裡面但是他認為這個還沒有被理造重大瑕疵吧所以他是但是我剛才念的是不是判決主文啦我要報告一下因為這個是國會自立的範疇對 國會自立的範疇但是我可以讓我說明嗎\n你這個算不算反質詢?剛才林思敏說你可以用這種疑問句,照國民黨的定義,疑問句就是反質詢嗎?沒有,我是要請求你同意我才能說明我並不是反質詢的概念啦。對嘛,所以大法官對反質詢做了很清楚的定義嘛,對不對?這個不算反質詢,我沒有說你這反質詢。但是你照國民黨他們的定義,你剛剛這樣就反質詢吧?\n我要說清楚我剛才練的狀況剛才所說的我是要請求你同意讓我說明如果你不同意我不會再講下去嘛所以大法官他的解釋現在讓我跳到這個反質詢了\n大法官的解釋對反質詢定義非常清楚啊就是說除非你是這個主客議位你這個主客議位之後並不是用疑問去反質詢這樣子的解釋有什麼不對呢\n這一次剛才齁這個前面的委員一直大概兩位委員都一直在講說這大法官會議的解釋齁這個欸不是這個憲法判決齁拔了立法院的牙齁這個剝奪國會的欸立法院的職權然後這個是中華民國憲法的法學齁大法官這個是獨一無二的法學但是這一次的憲法判決他所有的憲法判決他的憲法他的依據都是中華民國憲法本文以及徵修條文\n是誰拔了立法院的牙不是這次的大法官拔立法院的牙是孫文、孫中山拔立法院的牙你們講說外國的國會都可以幹嘛不是啊我們台灣的憲法就不是外國的三權分立嘛台灣的憲法就把立法院一些職權\n沈文親自寫說我們應該要把立法院的職權要剝奪以避免國會獨大你去三民主義裡面講啦國外的這個國會有這個國會獨大的問題所以我把立法權裡面的監察權等等這些權利我把它拿掉啊這是沈文講的這不是大法官講的嘛\n那所以把國會的牙打立法院巴掌的不是這次的大法官嘛就是我們的憲法規定設計就是這樣子嘛憲法設計就是限制立法院的權利使立法院不向外國國會用那麼大的權利嘛但我不是說這個五權憲法好啦所以大家如果對這個真的有意見認為說不應該國會不應該這樣子那就大家來修憲嘛\n大家來修憲把憲法改成我們希望的這樣子的國會的制度吧而不是說在現在的憲法之下人家大法官針對依據現在憲法徵修條文規定你立法院有什麼權力總統有什麼義務行政權有什麼義務這都在憲法本文跟徵修條文寫得一清二楚這個憲法判決判決說按照這一條這個條文的文字所以\n立法權有什麼權利行政權它有什麼義務總統有什麼義務都是按照這個憲法跟憲法中間條文的文字在解釋的嘛所以如果對這個有意見就來修憲啊怎麼會去怪大法官從頭到尾我再講一遍中華民國憲法我引用他們剛剛講的話中華民國憲法的法學是獨一無二的這不是 這個沒有錯 這個我同意但這個獨一無二不是大法官\n解釋獨一無二而是我們的憲法體制在當初孫文武權憲法這種咚咚他就是獨一無二啦這一次齁你看害我這個都這樣都沒有時間剛才在回答齁說這個有委員提到說所以以後立法院邀請總統來國情報告是違憲的你還回答是\n我們立法院邀請沒有違憲啊甚至我們立法我們自己這第15條之一第一項我們要求他每年來報告這個都合憲啊對不對這次解釋文都合憲對不對只是只是按照中華民國憲法徵修條及徵修條文總統沒有這個義務你立法院要邀請當然合憲啊你立法院有權邀請啊但是我們的徵修條文規定就是總統\n這個這個總統他要來不來是由總統來決定這不是不是立法不是這次大法官憲法判決把總統的權力擴大了變成太上總統不是是我們原本的憲政體制總統就不是向立法院負責嗎今天我們自己立一個法說要總統來向立法院負責但憲法裡面沒有啊憲法裡面向立法院負責的是行政院啊不是總統啊\n這這麼簡、這麼清楚的問題然後現在把他賴到來給大法官破曬、破死說大法官是因為這樣他讓總統變成太上總統不是,總統什麼時候變太上總統中華民國徵修條文從這個憲法修改完了之後我們憲法總統的職權就是這樣子啊所以這個我想這一次我們看到這個\n社會上在野黨這個氣急敗壞一直不斷地在抹黑就從判決出來之後其實判決之前就開始了一直在抹黑大法官說這個綠油油啦這個都是聽命於賴清德啊從判決之前就開始抹黑\n為什麼會這樣氣急敗壞因為這一次齁其實這一次被宣告違憲的條文在過去齁不管從大法官會議解釋一直到憲法判決其實是數量非常多可以說是以前沒有這麼多條文被判決這個違憲\n但是聽起來這樣所以在野黨看了說哇這麼多條文被宣告違憲但是相對的這一次宣告合憲的條文其實這次申請裡面宣告合憲的條文其實比宣告違憲的條文還多了這一部有一些是合憲的有一些是違憲的\n那你不能只看到說啊這違憲的這麼多是因為這次申請條文這麼多很多都是新創設的那為什麼會有這麼多被宣告合憲有的這麼多被宣告違憲呢這個其實就是剛剛所講的立法瑕疵裡面的我們的立法過於倉促沒有充分討論才就讓這樣的法案送出去所以最後會導致這樣的結果\n你說要充分討論我不是講說在院會本來過去從過去到現在在院會要討論也很困難要充分在院會充分討論本來就很困難但是在本委員會司法法制委員會裡面沒有讓在司法法制委員會裡面充分的討論那個時候連大體討論也沒有連主條討論也沒有連到底這個條文要不要保留都有主席裁決而沒有讓現場的委員來議決\n就是因為沒有充分討論最後結果才會有這麼多的違憲條文所以違憲條文這麼多合憲的條文也這麼多不是大法官有什麼偏見而是我們這次申請的條文就這麼多申請這個憲法判決條文就這麼多裡面大法官甚至合憲的還比違憲的還多這個\n剛剛還有講說這次大法官的判決這個穿透力非常強不只是針對這次申請的條文他甚至到以前的條文穿透到以前的條文這不是廢話嗎日文說當然的啊所有憲法判決的解釋他當然回縮到過去全部的法律啊\n他當然是針對所有的相關的法條,通通他的效力當然都急於這些啦,這個不是廢話,這有什麼好指責的,連這個都拿出來講,好像說這些大法官的解釋是多麼罪惡,多麼罪大惡極的,這種都是抹黑啦,在我來看都是對於台灣未來的民主體制都是傷害。\n這種不就事論事然後把這個機關把這些憲政機關隨便的任意貼上標籤把他這個污名化到最後所有的所有的中華民國體制機關全部都被你污名化了全部都是民進黨的全部都是綠油油只有立法院是正義之師等到未來民主體制不是民主體制不是要運作這4年欸是未來台灣中華民國百年欸\n未來換人執政換什麼這些都被污名化了以後大法官會議也是混蛋大法官會議做的解釋他社會公信力何在以後監察院也是混蛋考試院是混蛋都是綠色這樣子來抹黑抹黑將這個憲政機關標籤化這樣的做法我認為非常惡劣對台灣民主政治是傷害就事論事嘛\n這次所做的這些解釋不管是對總統國情的報告他也說這個就是立法院的權利合憲的就是合憲違憲的就是違憲因為現行的中華民國憲法立法院是他有被動的權利但是總統他沒有義務這個是現在徵求條文裡面的規定他就依這個規定條文來做解釋說這個這個\n這裏哪一些規定是合憲哪一些規定是違憲這個很清楚就總統國情報告的部分對於質詢權的部分他也講得很清楚他說禁止反質詢是合憲的他沒有說禁止反質詢違憲他禁止反質詢是合憲的但是\n至於罰還\n因為質詢內容回答而加以罰還這個是違憲的這個也宣告了這個非經主席同意拒絕提供資訊及其他藐視國會行為這些也是違憲的有關人事同意權的部分他基本上延續4至第6、6、3、2號的解釋\n他說審查你要怎麼審查要他提什麼東西這個都是立法院自律事項這個都是合憲的他沒有說這都是違憲大部分這些條文都是合憲的你要幾天召開這個委員會你要他提供什麼這些都是合憲的但是這些被提名人他還不是公職所以他沒有這個義務這個是你現在對沒有義務的人可以罰還這個\n是違憲的這個都講得很清楚最重要的一句話因為時間的關係我後面的這些有關調查權聽證會表示國會我就不談了但是人事同意最後講這句話最重要的在人事同意解釋他說立法院剛剛講的這些都合憲喔都合憲都沒有全部違憲\n但是最重要的延續4至6、3、2號的解釋他說立法院不得以程序的規定變相的限制剝奪立法委員行使投票行使表決的權利\n你可以用很多程序來規定不行的要他交承諾書要他提報告這個都合憲但是你不能夠剝奪其他立法委員每一個立法委員要行使這個同意權的權利不能用程序來剝奪也就是說你不能用這些程序來不進行同意權的投票這講得非常清楚啦還有很多的我覺得\n大家就事論事啦我今天認為主席安排這樣子的專案報告就是個機會讓我們在這裡立法院大家就事論事真理越辯越明把它講清楚這個我們還要立法委員說這個大法官憲法判決立法院沒有遵守的義務秘書長立法院有沒有遵守憲法判決的義務因為他有權機關\n以上謝謝秘書長 謝謝沈委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:19.489 --> 00:47.261\n主席,我請周秘書長有請周秘書長主席,沈委員好秘書長好我想我今天原本是準備了蠻大一段希望說能夠讓社會清楚說這次的憲判第9號到底是什麼樣的內容因為從禮拜五宣判到現在\n\n00:48.715 --> 01:09.104\n我們只看在媒體上面我們看到的就是罵說啊這個是綠油油啊這個解釋對不對也看到說啊這個解釋很好但是到底解釋內容是什麼一般人民其實真的是不太清楚我本來準備了蠻長的一段齁我希望說在這裡這個有一個機會齁跟大家來跟國人齁好好的來分析這是大法官會議解釋的這一些\n\n01:12.125 --> 01:34.809\n這到底哪些部分合憲哪些部分違憲但是剛才這個聽到這個兩個不同的在野黨的委員在這裡所提的一些指控大概不出這兩天在新聞上面的他們的發言的情緒我就覺得是滿遺憾而且覺得有一些東西好像不回應不回應好像又怪怪的又要花掉我的一些時間來回應這個他們剛才的這些說法\n\n01:39.381 --> 02:03.853\n其實首先就先針對這個剛才林思敏就是林思敏委員講的啦好像很替我們偉大的這個周萬來秘書長抱屈啦說這個當初這個審查的時候啊民進黨指責你指責這個程序有問題啦齁等等結果憲法判決說這個程序是合憲的並沒有違憲所以民進黨應該跟你道歉民進黨是不是這樣\n\n02:07.484 --> 02:35.492\n是每一個委員每一個人的發言的情況跟我...我個人沒有什麼...我知道啦你也沒辦法評論啦但是我...但是我講的如果有錯你可以指責我沒有關係啦我不會暇願報復啦我也不會懷恨在心啦但是這個...這個...林士兵委員他有講說因為舊程序的部分這個...這個...憲法法庭認為沒有違憲的問題但是憲法法庭裡面卻有這段文字就舊程序的部分他說\n\n02:37.517 --> 02:59.097\n他說這次的這個立法程序實難謂無瑕疵這個在這個你如果要查在第71段他說其立法程序難謂無瑕疵第73段又講一次他說這個自發生立法程序之瑕疵第75段又講一次立法程序雖存有瑕疵\n\n03:01.028 --> 03:21.396\n因為憲法法庭是說你這個齁你不能說這樣子程序是違憲齁但是有瑕疵重大瑕疵憲法法庭直接提了所以民進黨說這個有瑕疵有什麼不對民進黨說這個程序有瑕疵有什麼不對我們說這次立法的立法結果內容是違憲而程序是瑕疵有什麼不對秘書長我剛唸的是不是憲法法庭的判決裡面我們捏造了哪一個字\n\n03:27.714 --> 03:49.286\n沒有是不是啦我問你我剛剛念的是不是憲法法判決的主文裡面的那是法院裡面他的審查規定裡面但是他認為這個還沒有被理造重大瑕疵吧所以他是但是我剛才念的是不是判決主文啦我要報告一下因為這個是國會自立的範疇對國會自立的範疇但是我可以讓我說明嗎\n\n03:55.729 --> 04:17.379\n你這個算不算反質詢?剛才林思敏說你可以用這種疑問句,照國民黨的定義,疑問句就是反質詢嗎?沒有,我是要請求你同意我才能說明我並不是反質詢的概念啦。對嘛,所以大法官對反質詢做了很清楚的定義嘛,對不對?這個不算反質詢,我沒有說你這反質詢。但是你照國民黨他們的定義,你剛剛這樣就反質詢吧?\n\n04:19.080 --> 04:29.994\n我要說清楚我剛才練的狀況剛才所說的我是要請求你同意讓我說明如果你不同意我不會再講下去嘛所以大法官他的解釋現在讓我跳到這個反質詢了\n\n04:37.423 --> 04:48.117\n大法官的解釋對反質詢定義非常清楚啊就是說除非你是這個主客議位你這個主客議位之後並不是用疑問去反質詢這樣子的解釋有什麼不對呢\n\n04:55.427 --> 05:24.017\n這一次剛才齁這個前面的委員一直大概兩位委員都一直在講說這大法官會議的解釋齁這個欸不是這個憲法判決齁拔了立法院的牙齁這個剝奪國會的欸立法院的職權然後這個是中華民國憲法的法學齁大法官這個是獨一無二的法學但是這一次的憲法判決他所有的憲法判決他的憲法他的依據都是中華民國憲法本文以及徵修條文\n\n05:26.144 --> 05:43.190\n是誰拔了立法院的牙不是這次的大法官拔立法院的牙是孫文、孫中山拔立法院的牙你們講說外國的國會都可以幹嘛不是啊我們台灣的憲法就不是外國的三權分立嘛台灣的憲法就把立法院一些職權\n\n05:45.453 --> 05:50.555\n沈文親自寫說我們應該要把立法院的職權要剝奪以避免國會獨大你去三民主義裡面講啦國外的這個國會有這個國會獨大的問題所以我把立法權裡面的監察權等等這些權利我把它拿掉啊這是沈文講的這不是大法官講的嘛\n\n06:06.667 --> 06:27.824\n那所以把國會的牙打立法院巴掌的不是這次的大法官嘛就是我們的憲法規定設計就是這樣子嘛憲法設計就是限制立法院的權利使立法院不向外國國會用那麼大的權利嘛但我不是說這個五權憲法好啦所以大家如果對這個真的有意見認為說不應該國會不應該這樣子那就大家來修憲嘛\n\n06:33.732 --> 07:01.497\n大家來修憲把憲法改成我們希望的這樣子的國會的制度吧而不是說在現在的憲法之下人家大法官針對依據現在憲法徵修條文規定你立法院有什麼權力總統有什麼義務行政權有什麼義務這都在憲法本文跟徵修條文寫得一清二楚這個憲法判決判決說按照這一條這個條文的文字所以\n\n07:02.657 --> 07:30.797\n立法權有什麼權利行政權它有什麼義務總統有什麼義務都是按照這個憲法跟憲法中間條文的文字在解釋的嘛所以如果對這個有意見就來修憲啊怎麼會去怪大法官從頭到尾我再講一遍中華民國憲法我引用他們剛剛講的話中華民國憲法的法學是獨一無二的這不是這個沒有錯這個我同意但這個獨一無二不是大法官\n\n07:31.940 --> 07:39.527\n解釋獨一無二而是我們的憲法體制在當初孫文武權憲法這種咚咚他就是獨一無二啦這一次齁你看害我這個都這樣都沒有時間剛才在回答齁說這個有委員提到說所以以後立法院邀請總統來國情報告是違憲的你還回答是\n\n07:59.571 --> 08:27.727\n我們立法院邀請沒有違憲啊甚至我們立法我們自己這第15條之一第一項我們要求他每年來報告這個都合憲啊對不對這次解釋文都合憲對不對只是只是按照中華民國憲法徵修條及徵修條文總統沒有這個義務你立法院要邀請當然合憲啊你立法院有權邀請啊但是我們的徵修條文規定就是總統\n\n08:30.429 --> 08:54.006\n這個這個總統他要來不來是由總統來決定這不是不是立法不是這次大法官憲法判決把總統的權力擴大了變成太上總統不是是我們原本的憲政體制總統就不是向立法院負責嗎今天我們自己立一個法說要總統來向立法院負責但憲法裡面沒有啊憲法裡面向立法院負責的是行政院啊不是總統啊\n\n08:56.969 --> 09:15.833\n這這麼簡、這麼清楚的問題然後現在把他賴到來給大法官破曬、破死說大法官是因為這樣他讓總統變成太上總統不是,總統什麼時候變太上總統中華民國徵修條文從這個憲法修改完了之後我們憲法總統的職權就是這樣子啊所以這個我想這一次我們看到這個\n\n09:22.921 --> 09:36.829\n社會上在野黨這個氣急敗壞一直不斷地在抹黑就從判決出來之後其實判決之前就開始了一直在抹黑大法官說這個綠油油啦這個都是聽命於賴清德啊從判決之前就開始抹黑\n\n09:42.185 --> 09:53.308\n為什麼會這樣氣急敗壞因為這一次齁其實這一次被宣告違憲的條文在過去齁不管從大法官會議解釋一直到憲法判決其實是數量非常多可以說是以前沒有這麼多條文被判決這個違憲\n\n10:01.308 --> 10:15.173\n但是聽起來這樣所以在野黨看了說哇這麼多條文被宣告違憲但是相對的這一次宣告合憲的條文其實這次申請裡面宣告合憲的條文其實比宣告違憲的條文還多了這一部有一些是合憲的有一些是違憲的\n\n10:21.257 --> 10:30.982\n那你不能只看到說啊這違憲的這麼多是因為這次申請條文這麼多很多都是新創設的那為什麼會有這麼多被宣告合憲有的這麼多被宣告違憲呢這個其實就是剛剛所講的立法瑕疵裡面的我們的立法過於倉促沒有充分討論才就讓這樣的法案送出去所以最後會導致這樣的結果\n\n10:47.912 --> 11:02.663\n你說要充分討論我不是講說在院會本來過去從過去到現在在院會要討論也很困難要充分在院會充分討論本來就很困難但是在本委員會司法法制委員會裡面沒有讓在司法法制委員會裡面充分的討論那個時候連大體討論也沒有連主條討論也沒有連到底這個條文要不要保留都有主席裁決而沒有讓現場的委員來議決\n\n11:19.537 --> 11:39.355\n就是因為沒有充分討論最後結果才會有這麼多的違憲條文所以違憲條文這麼多合憲的條文也這麼多不是大法官有什麼偏見而是我們這次申請的條文就這麼多申請這個憲法判決條文就這麼多裡面大法官甚至合憲的還比違憲的還多這個\n\n11:44.957 --> 11:47.658\n剛剛還有講說這次大法官的判決這個穿透力非常強不只是針對這次申請的條文他甚至到以前的條文穿透到以前的條文這不是廢話嗎日文說當然的啊所有憲法判決的解釋他當然回縮到過去全部的法律啊\n\n12:08.936 --> 12:31.003\n他當然是針對所有的相關的法條,通通他的效力當然都急於這些啦,這個不是廢話,這有什麼好指責的,連這個都拿出來講,好像說這些大法官的解釋是多麼罪惡,多麼罪大惡極的,這種都是抹黑啦,在我來看都是對於台灣未來的民主體制都是傷害。\n\n12:32.533 --> 12:58.812\n這種不就事論事然後把這個機關把這些憲政機關隨便的任意貼上標籤把他這個污名化到最後所有的所有的中華民國體制機關全部都被你污名化了全部都是民進黨的全部都是綠油油只有立法院是正義之師等到未來民主體制不是民主體制不是要運作這4年欸是未來台灣中華民國百年欸\n\n13:01.638 --> 13:25.528\n未來換人執政換什麼這些都被污名化了以後大法官會議也是混蛋大法官會議做的解釋他社會公信力何在以後監察院也是混蛋考試院是混蛋都是綠色這樣子來抹黑抹黑將這個憲政機關標籤化這樣的做法我認為非常惡劣對台灣民主政治是傷害就事論事嘛\n\n13:31.673 --> 13:54.050\n這次所做的這些解釋不管是對總統國情的報告他也說這個就是立法院的權利合憲的就是合憲違憲的就是違憲因為現行的中華民國憲法立法院是他有被動的權利但是總統他沒有義務這個是現在徵求條文裡面的規定他就依這個規定條文來做解釋說這個這個\n\n13:59.732 --> 14:18.622\n這裏哪一些規定是合憲哪一些規定是違憲這個很清楚就總統國情報告的部分對於質詢權的部分他也講得很清楚他說禁止反質詢是合憲的他沒有說禁止反質詢違憲他禁止反質詢是合憲的但是\n\n14:19.704 --> 14:19.964\n至於罰還\n\n14:44.676 --> 15:00.973\n因為質詢內容回答而加以罰還這個是違憲的這個也宣告了這個非經主席同意拒絕提供資訊及其他藐視國會行為這些也是違憲的有關人事同意權的部分他基本上延續4至第6、6、3、2號的解釋\n\n15:04.073 --> 15:27.547\n他說審查你要怎麼審查要他提什麼東西這個都是立法院自律事項這個都是合憲的他沒有說這都是違憲大部分這些條文都是合憲的你要幾天召開這個委員會你要他提供什麼這些都是合憲的但是這些被提名人他還不是公職所以他沒有這個義務這個是你現在對沒有義務的人可以罰還這個\n\n15:33.103 --> 15:51.656\n是違憲的這個都講得很清楚最重要的一句話因為時間的關係我後面的這些有關調查權聽證會表示國會我就不談了但是人事同意最後講這句話最重要的在人事同意解釋他說立法院剛剛講的這些都合憲喔都合憲都沒有全部違憲\n\n15:52.844 --> 16:05.112\n但是最重要的延續4至6、3、2號的解釋他說立法院不得以程序的規定變相的限制剝奪立法委員行使投票行使表決的權利\n\n16:06.957 --> 16:28.270\n你可以用很多程序來規定不行的要他交承諾書要他提報告這個都合憲但是你不能夠剝奪其他立法委員每一個立法委員要行使這個同意權的權利不能用程序來剝奪也就是說你不能用這些程序來不進行同意權的投票這講得非常清楚啦還有很多的我覺得\n\n16:33.700 --> 16:51.327\n大家就事論事啦我今天認為主席安排這樣子的專案報告就是個機會讓我們在這裡立法院大家就事論事真理越辯越明把它講清楚這個我們還要立法委員說這個大法官憲法判決立法院沒有遵守的義務秘書長立法院有沒有遵守憲法判決的義務因為他有權機關\n\n17:01.721 --> 17:03.753\n以上謝謝秘書長謝謝沈委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":19.489,"end":47.261,"text":"主席,我請周秘書長有請周秘書長主席,沈委員好秘書長好我想我今天原本是準備了蠻大一段希望說能夠讓社會清楚說這次的憲判第9號到底是什麼樣的內容因為從禮拜五宣判到現在"},{"start":48.715,"end":69.104,"text":"我們只看在媒體上面我們看到的就是罵說啊這個是綠油油啊這個解釋對不對也看到說啊這個解釋很好但是到底解釋內容是什麼一般人民其實真的是不太清楚我本來準備了蠻長的一段齁我希望說在這裡這個有一個機會齁跟大家來跟國人齁好好的來分析這是大法官會議解釋的這一些"},{"start":72.125,"end":94.809,"text":"這到底哪些部分合憲哪些部分違憲但是剛才這個聽到這個兩個不同的在野黨的委員在這裡所提的一些指控大概不出這兩天在新聞上面的他們的發言的情緒我就覺得是滿遺憾而且覺得有一些東西好像不回應不回應好像又怪怪的又要花掉我的一些時間來回應這個他們剛才的這些說法"},{"start":99.381,"end":123.853,"text":"其實首先就先針對這個剛才林思敏就是林思敏委員講的啦好像很替我們偉大的這個周萬來秘書長抱屈啦說這個當初這個審查的時候啊民進黨指責你指責這個程序有問題啦齁等等結果憲法判決說這個程序是合憲的並沒有違憲所以民進黨應該跟你道歉民進黨是不是這樣"},{"start":127.484,"end":155.492,"text":"是每一個委員每一個人的發言的情況跟我...我個人沒有什麼...我知道啦你也沒辦法評論啦但是我...但是我講的如果有錯你可以指責我沒有關係啦我不會暇願報復啦我也不會懷恨在心啦但是這個...這個...林士兵委員他有講說因為舊程序的部分這個...這個...憲法法庭認為沒有違憲的問題但是憲法法庭裡面卻有這段文字就舊程序的部分他說"},{"start":157.517,"end":179.097,"text":"他說這次的這個立法程序實難謂無瑕疵這個在這個你如果要查在第71段他說其立法程序難謂無瑕疵第73段又講一次他說這個自發生立法程序之瑕疵第75段又講一次立法程序雖存有瑕疵"},{"start":181.028,"end":201.396,"text":"因為憲法法庭是說你這個齁你不能說這樣子程序是違憲齁但是有瑕疵重大瑕疵憲法法庭直接提了所以民進黨說這個有瑕疵有什麼不對民進黨說這個程序有瑕疵有什麼不對我們說這次立法的立法結果內容是違憲而程序是瑕疵有什麼不對秘書長我剛唸的是不是憲法法庭的判決裡面我們捏造了哪一個字"},{"start":207.714,"end":229.286,"text":"沒有 是不是啦 我問你我剛剛念的是不是憲法法判決的主文裡面的那是法院裡面他的審查規定裡面但是他認為這個還沒有被理造重大瑕疵吧所以他是但是我剛才念的是不是判決主文啦我要報告一下因為這個是國會自立的範疇對 國會自立的範疇但是我可以讓我說明嗎"},{"start":235.729,"end":257.379,"text":"你這個算不算反質詢?剛才林思敏說你可以用這種疑問句,照國民黨的定義,疑問句就是反質詢嗎?沒有,我是要請求你同意我才能說明我並不是反質詢的概念啦。對嘛,所以大法官對反質詢做了很清楚的定義嘛,對不對?這個不算反質詢,我沒有說你這反質詢。但是你照國民黨他們的定義,你剛剛這樣就反質詢吧?"},{"start":259.08,"end":269.994,"text":"我要說清楚我剛才練的狀況剛才所說的我是要請求你同意讓我說明如果你不同意我不會再講下去嘛所以大法官他的解釋現在讓我跳到這個反質詢了"},{"start":277.423,"end":288.117,"text":"大法官的解釋對反質詢定義非常清楚啊就是說除非你是這個主客議位你這個主客議位之後並不是用疑問去反質詢這樣子的解釋有什麼不對呢"},{"start":295.427,"end":324.017,"text":"這一次剛才齁這個前面的委員一直大概兩位委員都一直在講說這大法官會議的解釋齁這個欸不是這個憲法判決齁拔了立法院的牙齁這個剝奪國會的欸立法院的職權然後這個是中華民國憲法的法學齁大法官這個是獨一無二的法學但是這一次的憲法判決他所有的憲法判決他的憲法他的依據都是中華民國憲法本文以及徵修條文"},{"start":326.144,"end":343.19,"text":"是誰拔了立法院的牙不是這次的大法官拔立法院的牙是孫文、孫中山拔立法院的牙你們講說外國的國會都可以幹嘛不是啊我們台灣的憲法就不是外國的三權分立嘛台灣的憲法就把立法院一些職權"},{"start":345.453,"end":350.555,"text":"沈文親自寫說我們應該要把立法院的職權要剝奪以避免國會獨大你去三民主義裡面講啦國外的這個國會有這個國會獨大的問題所以我把立法權裡面的監察權等等這些權利我把它拿掉啊這是沈文講的這不是大法官講的嘛"},{"start":366.667,"end":387.824,"text":"那所以把國會的牙打立法院巴掌的不是這次的大法官嘛就是我們的憲法規定設計就是這樣子嘛憲法設計就是限制立法院的權利使立法院不向外國國會用那麼大的權利嘛但我不是說這個五權憲法好啦所以大家如果對這個真的有意見認為說不應該國會不應該這樣子那就大家來修憲嘛"},{"start":393.732,"end":421.497,"text":"大家來修憲把憲法改成我們希望的這樣子的國會的制度吧而不是說在現在的憲法之下人家大法官針對依據現在憲法徵修條文規定你立法院有什麼權力總統有什麼義務行政權有什麼義務這都在憲法本文跟徵修條文寫得一清二楚這個憲法判決判決說按照這一條這個條文的文字所以"},{"start":422.657,"end":450.797,"text":"立法權有什麼權利行政權它有什麼義務總統有什麼義務都是按照這個憲法跟憲法中間條文的文字在解釋的嘛所以如果對這個有意見就來修憲啊怎麼會去怪大法官從頭到尾我再講一遍中華民國憲法我引用他們剛剛講的話中華民國憲法的法學是獨一無二的這不是 這個沒有錯 這個我同意但這個獨一無二不是大法官"},{"start":451.94,"end":459.527,"text":"解釋獨一無二而是我們的憲法體制在當初孫文武權憲法這種咚咚他就是獨一無二啦這一次齁你看害我這個都這樣都沒有時間剛才在回答齁說這個有委員提到說所以以後立法院邀請總統來國情報告是違憲的你還回答是"},{"start":479.571,"end":507.727,"text":"我們立法院邀請沒有違憲啊甚至我們立法我們自己這第15條之一第一項我們要求他每年來報告這個都合憲啊對不對這次解釋文都合憲對不對只是只是按照中華民國憲法徵修條及徵修條文總統沒有這個義務你立法院要邀請當然合憲啊你立法院有權邀請啊但是我們的徵修條文規定就是總統"},{"start":510.429,"end":534.006,"text":"這個這個總統他要來不來是由總統來決定這不是不是立法不是這次大法官憲法判決把總統的權力擴大了變成太上總統不是是我們原本的憲政體制總統就不是向立法院負責嗎今天我們自己立一個法說要總統來向立法院負責但憲法裡面沒有啊憲法裡面向立法院負責的是行政院啊不是總統啊"},{"start":536.969,"end":555.833,"text":"這這麼簡、這麼清楚的問題然後現在把他賴到來給大法官破曬、破死說大法官是因為這樣他讓總統變成太上總統不是,總統什麼時候變太上總統中華民國徵修條文從這個憲法修改完了之後我們憲法總統的職權就是這樣子啊所以這個我想這一次我們看到這個"},{"start":562.921,"end":576.829,"text":"社會上在野黨這個氣急敗壞一直不斷地在抹黑就從判決出來之後其實判決之前就開始了一直在抹黑大法官說這個綠油油啦這個都是聽命於賴清德啊從判決之前就開始抹黑"},{"start":582.185,"end":593.308,"text":"為什麼會這樣氣急敗壞因為這一次齁其實這一次被宣告違憲的條文在過去齁不管從大法官會議解釋一直到憲法判決其實是數量非常多可以說是以前沒有這麼多條文被判決這個違憲"},{"start":601.308,"end":615.173,"text":"但是聽起來這樣所以在野黨看了說哇這麼多條文被宣告違憲但是相對的這一次宣告合憲的條文其實這次申請裡面宣告合憲的條文其實比宣告違憲的條文還多了這一部有一些是合憲的有一些是違憲的"},{"start":621.257,"end":630.982,"text":"那你不能只看到說啊這違憲的這麼多是因為這次申請條文這麼多很多都是新創設的那為什麼會有這麼多被宣告合憲有的這麼多被宣告違憲呢這個其實就是剛剛所講的立法瑕疵裡面的我們的立法過於倉促沒有充分討論才就讓這樣的法案送出去所以最後會導致這樣的結果"},{"start":647.912,"end":662.663,"text":"你說要充分討論我不是講說在院會本來過去從過去到現在在院會要討論也很困難要充分在院會充分討論本來就很困難但是在本委員會司法法制委員會裡面沒有讓在司法法制委員會裡面充分的討論那個時候連大體討論也沒有連主條討論也沒有連到底這個條文要不要保留都有主席裁決而沒有讓現場的委員來議決"},{"start":679.537,"end":699.355,"text":"就是因為沒有充分討論最後結果才會有這麼多的違憲條文所以違憲條文這麼多合憲的條文也這麼多不是大法官有什麼偏見而是我們這次申請的條文就這麼多申請這個憲法判決條文就這麼多裡面大法官甚至合憲的還比違憲的還多這個"},{"start":704.957,"end":707.658,"text":"剛剛還有講說這次大法官的判決這個穿透力非常強不只是針對這次申請的條文他甚至到以前的條文穿透到以前的條文這不是廢話嗎日文說當然的啊所有憲法判決的解釋他當然回縮到過去全部的法律啊"},{"start":728.936,"end":751.003,"text":"他當然是針對所有的相關的法條,通通他的效力當然都急於這些啦,這個不是廢話,這有什麼好指責的,連這個都拿出來講,好像說這些大法官的解釋是多麼罪惡,多麼罪大惡極的,這種都是抹黑啦,在我來看都是對於台灣未來的民主體制都是傷害。"},{"start":752.533,"end":778.812,"text":"這種不就事論事然後把這個機關把這些憲政機關隨便的任意貼上標籤把他這個污名化到最後所有的所有的中華民國體制機關全部都被你污名化了全部都是民進黨的全部都是綠油油只有立法院是正義之師等到未來民主體制不是民主體制不是要運作這4年欸是未來台灣中華民國百年欸"},{"start":781.638,"end":805.528,"text":"未來換人執政換什麼這些都被污名化了以後大法官會議也是混蛋大法官會議做的解釋他社會公信力何在以後監察院也是混蛋考試院是混蛋都是綠色這樣子來抹黑抹黑將這個憲政機關標籤化這樣的做法我認為非常惡劣對台灣民主政治是傷害就事論事嘛"},{"start":811.673,"end":834.05,"text":"這次所做的這些解釋不管是對總統國情的報告他也說這個就是立法院的權利合憲的就是合憲違憲的就是違憲因為現行的中華民國憲法立法院是他有被動的權利但是總統他沒有義務這個是現在徵求條文裡面的規定他就依這個規定條文來做解釋說這個這個"},{"start":839.732,"end":858.622,"text":"這裏哪一些規定是合憲哪一些規定是違憲這個很清楚就總統國情報告的部分對於質詢權的部分他也講得很清楚他說禁止反質詢是合憲的他沒有說禁止反質詢違憲他禁止反質詢是合憲的但是"},{"start":859.704,"end":859.964,"text":"至於罰還"},{"start":884.676,"end":900.973,"text":"因為質詢內容回答而加以罰還這個是違憲的這個也宣告了這個非經主席同意拒絕提供資訊及其他藐視國會行為這些也是違憲的有關人事同意權的部分他基本上延續4至第6、6、3、2號的解釋"},{"start":904.073,"end":927.547,"text":"他說審查你要怎麼審查要他提什麼東西這個都是立法院自律事項這個都是合憲的他沒有說這都是違憲大部分這些條文都是合憲的你要幾天召開這個委員會你要他提供什麼這些都是合憲的但是這些被提名人他還不是公職所以他沒有這個義務這個是你現在對沒有義務的人可以罰還這個"},{"start":933.103,"end":951.656,"text":"是違憲的這個都講得很清楚最重要的一句話因為時間的關係我後面的這些有關調查權聽證會表示國會我就不談了但是人事同意最後講這句話最重要的在人事同意解釋他說立法院剛剛講的這些都合憲喔都合憲都沒有全部違憲"},{"start":952.844,"end":965.112,"text":"但是最重要的延續4至6、3、2號的解釋他說立法院不得以程序的規定變相的限制剝奪立法委員行使投票行使表決的權利"},{"start":966.957,"end":988.27,"text":"你可以用很多程序來規定不行的要他交承諾書要他提報告這個都合憲但是你不能夠剝奪其他立法委員每一個立法委員要行使這個同意權的權利不能用程序來剝奪也就是說你不能用這些程序來不進行同意權的投票這講得非常清楚啦還有很多的我覺得"},{"start":993.7,"end":1011.327,"text":"大家就事論事啦我今天認為主席安排這樣子的專案報告就是個機會讓我們在這裡立法院大家就事論事真理越辯越明把它講清楚這個我們還要立法委員說這個大法官憲法判決立法院沒有遵守的義務秘書長立法院有沒有遵守憲法判決的義務因為他有權機關"},{"start":1021.721,"end":1023.753,"text":"以上謝謝秘書長 謝謝沈委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時59分）主席，我請周秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：主席、沈委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長好。我想我今天原本是準備了滿大一段，就是希望說能夠讓社會清楚這次的憲判第9號到底是什麼樣的內容，因為從禮拜五宣判到現在，我們在媒體上看到罵說這個是綠友友，這個解釋不對，當然也看到說這個解釋很好，但是到底解釋內容是什麼，一般人民其實真的是不太清楚，我本來準備了滿長的一段，我希望在這裡有一個機會跟國人好好的來分析，大法官會議解釋的這一些，到底哪些部分合憲、哪些部分違憲。剛才聽到兩個不同在野黨的委員，在這裡所提的一些指控，大概不出這兩天在新聞上面他們發言的情緒，我就覺得是滿遺憾，但是有一些東西好像不回應又怪怪的，又要花掉我的一些時間來回應他們剛才的這些說法。","首先就先針對剛才林思銘委員講的，他好像是很替我們偉大的周萬來秘書長抱屈，說當初審查的時候，民進黨指責你、指責這個程序有問題等等，結果憲法判決說這個程序是合憲的，並沒有違憲，所以民進黨應該跟你道歉。秘書長，是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：每一個委員有每一個人發言的情況，我個人沒有什麼……"],["沈委員發惠：對啦，我知道，你也沒辦法評論啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：我無法評論。"],["沈委員發惠：但是我講的如果有錯，你可以指責我沒有關係，我不會挾怨報復啦，也不會懷恨在心啦！林思銘委員有講，就程序的部分，憲法法庭認為沒有違憲的問題，但是憲法法庭就程序的部分卻有這段文字，它說這一次的立法程序，實難謂無瑕疵，你如果要查，這是在第71段，它有說「其立法程序難謂無瑕疵」。在第73段又講一次，它說「致發生立法程序之瑕疵」；第75段又講一次，「立法程序雖存有瑕疵」，也就是憲法法庭說不能說這樣子的程序是違憲，但是有瑕疵、重大瑕疵。憲法法庭直接提了，所以民進黨說這個有瑕疵，有什麼不對？民進黨說這個程序有瑕疵有什麼不對？我們說這立法結果、內容是違憲，而程序是瑕疵，有什麼不對？秘書長，我剛剛唸的是不是在憲法法庭的判決裡面？我有沒有捏造哪一個字？"],["周秘書長萬來：欸……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有，是不是啦？我問你，我剛剛唸的是不是憲法法庭判決主文裡面的？"],["周秘書長萬來：那是法庭它的審查規定裡面，但是它認為這個還沒有悖離到重大瑕疵吧！所以這屬於……"],["沈委員發惠：但是我剛才唸的是不是判決主文啦？"],["周秘書長萬來：委員，我要報告一下，因為這一個是國會自律的範疇，所以如果以……"],["沈委員發惠：對，國會自律的範疇，但是……"],["周秘書長萬來：可以讓我說明嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：你這個算不算反質詢？剛才林思銘說……"],["周秘書長萬來：喔，不是！"],["沈委員發惠：這是疑問句，照國民黨的定義疑問句就是反質詢啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：沈委員，沒有，我是要請求你同意我才能說明，我並不是反質詢的概念啦！"],["沈委員發惠：對嘛，所以大法官對反質詢做了很清楚的定義嘛，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，沒有……"],["沈委員發惠：這個不算反質詢，我沒有說你是反質詢。"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，不是……"],["沈委員發惠：但是照國民黨他們的定義，你剛剛這樣就反質詢了啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，沈委員，我要說清楚，我剛才唸的狀況，剛才所說的，我是要請求你同意讓我說明，如果你不同意，我不會再講下去嘛！"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["周秘書長萬來：所以這個不是……"],["沈委員發惠：所以大法官的解釋……"],["周秘書長萬來：大法官憲法法庭所寫的不是這樣。"],["沈委員發惠：現在讓我跳到反質詢了，大法官的解釋對反質詢定義非常清楚啊！除非你是主客易位，並不是用疑問句就是反質詢，這樣子的解釋有什麼不對呢？","再來，這一次，剛才前面兩位委員都一直在講，說這個憲法判決拔了立法院的牙，剝奪國會、立法院的職權，然後這個是中華民國憲法的法學、大法官這個是獨一無二的法學。但是，這一次的憲法判決，它所有的憲法判決，它的依據都是中華民國憲法本文以及增修條文啦！是誰拔了立法院的牙？不是這一次的大法官拔立法院的牙，是孫文孫中山拔立法院的牙啦！你們講外國的國會都可以幹嘛，不是啊，我們臺灣的憲法就不是外國的三權分立嘛，臺灣的憲法就把立法院一些職權……孫文親自寫說我們應該要把立法院的職權剝奪，以避免國會獨大。","三民主義裡面講的，國外的國會有國會獨大的問題，所以把立法權裡面的監察權等等權力拿掉，這是孫文講的，這不是大法官講的嘛！所以拔國會的牙，打立法院巴掌的不是這次的大法官，我們憲法規定設計就是這樣子，憲法設計就是限制立法院的權力，使立法院不像外國國會擁有那麼大的權力。但我不是說這個五權憲法好，大家如果對這個真的有意見，認為國會不應該這樣子，那就來修憲嘛！把憲法改成我們希望的國會制度，而不是在現在的憲法之下，大法官依據現在憲法增修條文規定立法院有什麼權力、總統有什麼義務、行政權有什麼義務，這都在憲法本文跟增修條文寫得一清二楚，憲法判決按照這一條條文的文字，立法權有什麼權力、行政權有什麼義務、總統有什麼義務，都是按照憲法跟憲法增修條文的文字在解釋的，如果對這個有意見就來修憲啊！怎麼會去怪大法官？","我再講一遍中華民國憲法……我引用他們剛剛講的話，中華民國憲法的法學是獨一無二的，這沒有錯，這個我同意，但這個獨一無二，不是大法官解釋獨一無二，而是我們的憲法體制，當初孫文五權憲法這種東東就是獨一無二啦！這一次，害我這樣都沒有時間……剛才在回答時，有委員提到以後立法院邀請總統來國情報告是違憲的，你還回答：是。立法院邀請沒有違憲啦，甚至我們立法院職權行使法第十五條之一第一項，要求他每年來報告這個都合憲啊，對不對？甚至解釋文都合憲，對不對？只是按照中華民國憲法及增修條文，總統沒有這個義務，立法院要邀請，當然合憲啊！立法委員有權邀請啊！但是我們的增修條文規定，總統他要來不來是由總統來決定，這不是這次大法官憲法判決把總統的權力擴大變成太上總統，不是！是我們原本的憲政體制，總統就不是向立法院負責嘛！","今天我們自己立一個法，要總統來向立法院負責，這憲法裡面沒有啊，憲法裡面向立法院負責的是行政院，不是總統啊！就這麼簡單清楚的問題，然後現在來給大法官潑屎，說大法官因為這樣讓總統變成太上總統，不是！總統什麼時候變太上總統？中華民國增修條文從憲法修改完之後，我們總統的職權就是這樣子啊！我想這次看到社會上的在野黨氣急敗壞，一直不斷的在抹黑，從判決出來之後……其實判決之前就開始一直在抹黑大法官，說他們「綠友友」、都是聽命於賴清德，從判決之前就開始抹黑，為什麼會這樣氣急敗壞？因為這一次被宣告違憲的條文，過去不管從大法官會議解釋一直到憲法判決，其實數量非常多，可以說以前沒有這麼多條文被判決違憲，所以在野黨看了說：哇！這麼多條文被宣告違憲。但是相對在這一次的聲請中，宣告合憲的條文其實比宣告違憲的條文還多，有一些是合憲的，有一些是違憲的，不能只看到違憲的這麼多，是因為這次聲請的條文很多都是新創設的。","為什麼會有這麼多被宣告合憲，也有這麼多被宣告違憲呢？其實就是剛剛所講的立法瑕疵，我們的立法過於倉促，沒有充分討論就讓這樣的法案送出去，最後會導致這樣的結果，你說要充分討論，我不是講說在院會……本來從過去到現在，在院會要討論也很困難，要在院會充分討論本來就很困難，但是在本委員會、司法及法制委員會裡面，沒有讓大家在司法及法制委員會裡面充分的討論，那個時候連大體討論也沒有，連逐條討論也沒有，連這個條文到底要不要保留，都由主席裁決，而沒有讓現場的委員來議決。就是因為沒有充分討論，最後的結果才會有這麼多的違憲條文，違憲條文這麼多，合憲的條文也這麼多，不是大法官有什麼偏見，而是我們這次聲請的條文就這麼多，聲請憲法判決的條文就這麼多，裡面甚至合憲還比違憲的多。","剛剛還有講說這次大法官的判決穿透力非常強，不只是針對這次聲請的條文，甚至到以前的條文、穿透到以前的條文，這不是廢話嗎？日文說あたりまえ，當然的啊！所有憲法判決的解釋當然回溯到過去全部的法律啊！它當然是針對所有相關的法條，它的效力當然都及於這些啊！這個不是廢話嗎？這有什麼好指責的？連這個都拿出來講，好像說這些就是大法官的解釋是多麼罪惡、多麼罪大惡極的，這種都是抹黑啦！在我來看，對於臺灣未來的民主體制都是傷害，這種不就事論事，然後把這個機關、把這些憲政機關隨便的任意貼上標籤、把它污名化，到最後所有的中華民國體制機關全部都被你污名化了、全部都是民進黨的、全部都是綠友友，只有立法院是正義之師，等到未來民主體制……民主體制不是要運作這4年，是未來臺灣中華民國百年，未來換人執政，這些都被污名化了，以後大法官會議也是混蛋！大法官會議做的解釋，社會公信力何在？以後監察院也是混蛋！考試院是混蛋！都是綠色！這樣子來抹黑，將憲政機關標籤化，這樣的作法我認為非常惡劣，對臺灣民主政治是傷害，就事論事嘛！這次所做的這些解釋，不管是對總統國情的報告，他也說這個就是立法院的權力，合憲的就是合憲，違憲的就是違憲，因為現行的中華民國憲法，立法院有被動的權力，但是總統他沒有義務，這個是現在增修條文裡面的規定，他就依這個規定、條文來做解釋說哪一些規定是合憲、哪一些規定是違憲，這個很清楚，就總統國情報告的部分。","對於質詢權的部分他也講得很清楚，他說禁止反質詢是合憲的，他沒有說禁止反質詢違憲，他說禁止反質詢是合憲的，但是要區分、要定義反質詢，要區分不禮貌，疑問句最後是問號，像你剛剛問的，我可以回答嗎？這種不是反質詢，這個要區分、要定義，這樣講有什麼不對？這個大法官會議解釋就是這樣，他說反質詢必須要定義，但是禁止反質詢是合憲的，這次的解釋有這樣提到。","至於罰鍰，因為質詢內容回答而加以罰鍰，這個是違憲的，這個也宣告了，非經主席同意拒絕提供資訊及其他藐視國會行為，這些也是違憲的。","有關人事同意權的部分，基本上是延續釋字第632號的解釋，他說，你要怎麼審查、要他提什麼東西，這個都是立法院自律事項，這個都是合憲的，他沒有說這都是違憲，大部分這些條文都是合憲的，你要召開幾天委員會、你要他提供什麼資料，這些都是合憲的，但是這些被提名人還不是公職人員，所以他沒有這個義務，你現在是對沒有義務的人科以罰鍰，這個是違憲的，這都講得很清楚。","最重要的一句話，因為時間的關係，後面這些有關調查權、聽證會、藐視國會我就不談了，但是人事同意權，最後我講這句話，最重要的在人事同意的解釋，他說，立法院剛剛講的這些都合憲，都沒有宣布違憲，但是最重要的，延續釋字第632號解釋，它說：立法院不得以程序的規定變相的限制、剝奪立法委員投票行使表決的權利。你可以用很多程序來規定，不行的要他交承諾書、要他提報告，這個都合憲，但是不能夠剝奪其他立法委員、每一個立法委員要行使同意權的權利，不能用程序來剝奪；也就是說，不能用這些程序不進行同意權的投票；這個講得非常清楚！還有很多，我覺得大家就事論事，我今天認為主席安排這樣子的專案報告就是個機會，讓我們在這裡──立法院，大家就事論事，真理越辯越明，把它講清楚，還有立法委員說大法官憲法判決，立法院沒有遵守的義務。秘書長，立法院有沒有遵守憲法判決的義務？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為它是有權解釋的機關。"],["沈委員發惠：以上。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長，謝謝沈委員。","主席這邊作一個宣布，我們剛剛給列席代表跟現場委員一份113年憲判字第9號的立法院職權行使法原條文後來的修正條文，以及憲法法庭審查結果內容的整理表，如果在場媒體有需要，我們再請會務人員提供。","接下來有請吳委員思瑤質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}}