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{\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1013.056, \"end\": 1013.216, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1013.216, \"end\": 1013.536, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1013.536, \"end\": 1013.636, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1013.636, \"end\": 1013.816, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1013.816, \"end\": 1014.717, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1014.717, \"end\": 1015.657, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 1015.657, \"end\": 1015.877, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1015.877, \"end\": 1015.897, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"翁\", \"start\": 1017.432, \"end\": 1017.452, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"玲\", \"start\": 1017.452, \"end\": 1017.472, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,651 --> 00:00:24,658\n在我今天開始質詢之前本席有件事情想要請教昭偉因為我看到今天的這個出席名單裡面有一樣邀請了全國律師公會還有司改會我不知道這個事情事前沒有通知我們國民黨黨團或是民眾黨黨團我們也可以推薦公民團體啊\n\n2\n00:00:26,491 --> 00:00:51,167\n跟委員說明如果是公聽會的話你們同意開公聽會我們信息的公聽會就會有這樣各黨人推薦的例子那今天不是公聽會今天是專報那專報的話我們根據憲法第67條第二項可以邀請社會上的關係人士到會來備詢這是召委可以來邀請那再更正一下他們兩位都是以個人是專業律師的身份來參與那他們有他們的專業資歷那您剛剛說的是他們專業資歷之一\n\n3\n00:00:55,606 --> 00:00:56,366\n好,我們現在呢\n\n4\n00:01:25,017 --> 00:01:29,000\n接下來我想請那個周秘書長有請周秘書長二位好是秘書長好其實今天這個召委安排立法院秘書長周秘書長來這裡就113年的憲判字第9號判決\n\n5\n00:01:47,380 --> 00:02:10,613\n國會行使職權的困境與未來然後進行專題報告那其實本席認為這個中招委安排這場專題報告難道不覺得慚愧嗎到底是誰造成立法院職權行使的困境那麼當初呢大聲的要喊反對國會改革的民進黨黨團是有在乎國會的未來嗎\n\n6\n00:02:12,418 --> 00:02:34,937\n民進黨黨團看起來本來就想把國會做小把立法院矮化成為行政院的立法局把代表國家最高民意的民意機關打成是小矮人那大法官做成正號判決不是正好符合你們的心意你們今天來辦這場公聽會不覺得很矛盾嗎\n\n7\n00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:45,744\n還是你們認為說這個困境是因為大法官沒有認同你們國會改革法案修法程序時候當時的訴求全部違憲呢?你們難道沒有去抗議這群大法官對於你們的訴求沒有討論沒有民主?\n\n8\n00:02:59,810 --> 00:03:06,791\n很奇怪到現在為止我沒有看到民進黨黨團民進黨委員有任何的表達不滿似乎都還是拍手叫好憲法法庭的判決說這次的立法程序並沒有背離憲法公開和透明的這個討論原則並沒有背離憲法公開透明與討論原則\n\n9\n00:03:26,355 --> 00:03:32,801\n說實在話你們民進黨黨團被大法官狠狠打臉竟然摸摸鼻子就算了那麼吳世瑤怎麼沒有對那群留德的大法官說\n\n10\n00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:59,264\n這個立選劉德的大法官就是像許忠麗啊蔡忠貞啊謝明陽啊對他們說笑死人笑死人笑死人讀法律的劉德的你們是沒有看到民進黨黨團的訴求嗎沒有討論沒有民主啊你們是不知道舉手表決是違憲的嗎\n\n11\n00:04:09,127 --> 00:04:38,653\n我真的很驚訝民進黨委員竟然不敢批評這項憲法判決還說要尊重憲法法庭說這個是台灣公民社會的勝利你們對得起那群支持你們的青鳥嗎?你們騙他們走上街頭還造謠說國會改革法案的修法過程當中是違法的、不民主的結果呢?大法官認為不是這麼回事啊\n\n12\n00:04:40,305 --> 00:05:06,223\n何限呢?如果你們真心認為說這個修法過程當中是沒有討論沒有民主整部法律是違憲的就應該大聲的抨擊大法官亂判你們今天的沒有這樣的表明智黨委員今天沒有這樣的這個表態真的讓我\n\n13\n00:05:07,352 --> 00:05:21,404\n看到了就是你們基本上沒有大是大非啦你們是看到這個判決結果最後是保皇了嘛就做成一個保皇判決造就了超級大政府這不是就正合你們的心意嗎\n\n14\n00:05:22,984 --> 00:05:37,357\n民進黨黨團的表現的確是令人吃驚被大法官耍了還在為他們歌功頌德真是笑死人笑死人笑死人接下來我想請問秘書長請問您看到這個判決您會對這個判決結果感到驚訝嗎\n\n15\n00:05:48,693 --> 00:05:59,211\n因為這是他的權利啦我未必說明什麼大概我只能跟歐委員報告是說在以\n\n16\n00:06:01,283 --> 00:06:18,984\n國會的這個成員當然他所做的這個判決他的結果當然我們都按照一八號解釋當然會稍微去尊重他所以我今天的報告因為主席是要求這個職權型的困境跟未來但是\n\n17\n00:06:19,725 --> 00:06:40,935\n真正來說明秘書長的角色他是只有扁院的事務啊所以他是行政之員所以就不宜針對這一個來做說明所以我才把這一個整理在後面但我把它抽離出來有幾個問題然後做一個簡單的說明\n\n18\n00:06:42,844 --> 00:07:12,297\n好的謝謝秘書長當然秘書長因為您作為立法院的最高的幕僚長您不太好去批評這個釋憲機關憲法法庭所做的裁判但是我要告訴秘書長說坦白說啦我看到這樣的判決結果一點都不驚訝為什麼因為從法官當時決定要受理釋憲案的那一刻開始我就已經可以預測到今天的裁判結果了\n\n19\n00:07:13,973 --> 00:07:31,761\n因為許仲麗大法庭他們違反了過去一貫他們受理釋憲案的準則過去大法官要求立法委員要先修法修法提案修法修法不成了才能夠申請釋憲才符合那個程序要件\n\n20\n00:07:32,813 --> 00:07:55,500\n那麼對於如果說法案有影響到機關這個之間的這個爭議也要實際上有具體的爭議案件出來的時候那麼才符合機關這個爭議的憲法訴訟的條件可是他們這次受理這個釋憲案是完全打破過去許中立大法庭這個前面8年\n\n21\n00:07:58,225 --> 00:08:09,219\n對於這個憲法訴訟受理的申請原則所以呢我就很清楚的知道這個案子絕對不可能會認為國會改革法案是合法合憲的\n\n22\n00:08:10,359 --> 00:08:11,780\n所以我必須這個\n\n23\n00:08:32,867 --> 00:08:48,259\n所以我在這邊我其實真的認為這個裁判、憲法判決做出來我一點都不感到驚訝、吃驚我只是認為說這再度的證明了這群大法官他們早就做成新政了啦好那麼當然這次的憲法\n\n24\n00:08:56,198 --> 00:09:24,813\n判決做成之後其實也受到社會上的這個很多的批評尤其是我們法界已經有很多的重量級的法學教授出來抨擊這號憲法判決因為呢大法官這次憲法判決他締造了三個被先進民主國家看扁的這個司法奇蹟樹立了台灣邁向獨裁國家的里程碑\n\n25\n00:09:26,377 --> 00:09:52,220\n不客氣的講第一個他造就了超級大總統總統向民意報告竟然不是責任而是權力那麼台灣呢依照大法官的這個見解台灣根本不存在所謂的民主問責機制啊擁有最高權力的領導人他不需要直接間接的向民意機關負責\n\n26\n00:09:53,959 --> 00:10:19,620\n就像詹森林大法官說這根本違反基本的政治常識我從這個憲法法院的這個判決裡面就可以知道啊他現在已經把台灣未來就是要走向的就是一個準獨裁政府第二個我認為他造就了一個奇蹟就是他造就了全世界\n\n27\n00:10:27,905 --> 00:10:42,652\n我們看在亞洲國家裡面跟日本、韓國可能甚至跟菲律賓等等這些國家來相比我們的國會的權力是非常非常小的根本無法去制衡現在這麼蠻橫的政府\n\n28\n00:10:46,056 --> 00:11:03,909\n這不是就是造就了這個全世界最弱的民主國會的奇蹟第三個就是這一次的憲法判決他再次證明我們現在的大法官擴權大法官造法\n\n29\n00:11:07,074 --> 00:11:19,903\n過去一再強調的司法權要自治要自節制的這樣的一個觀念在現在這群大法官的腦海裡面是沒有的是不存在的從實質廢死的判決設下了重重的條件門檻指揮這個立法\n\n30\n00:11:30,799 --> 00:11:52,394\n立法機關要如何的去立法這就是大法官造法一個最好的一個證明在這次的國會改革的事先案當中同樣的不僅做數萬裁判而且也還是說你這個不對那個不對然後你要怎麼另外要去怎麼修所以呢這確實是\n\n31\n00:11:56,277 --> 00:11:57,357\n尊重委員的婚心\n\n32\n00:12:27,056 --> 00:12:27,076\n好﹐\n\n33\n00:12:53,972 --> 00:13:05,086\n我想無論如何在這一次的憲法判決當中我唯一比較能夠肯認的就是這群大法官倒是非常贊同秘書長您當時在我們國會改革修法過程當中的一些堅持\n\n34\n00:13:12,074 --> 00:13:12,234\n韓國瑜院長\n\n35\n00:13:28,027 --> 00:13:40,682\n在這次的憲法法院判決當中基本上是認為我們這次的國會改革的修法程序是合憲的就這個部分我就必須要非常肯定秘書長您確實是國會議事\n\n36\n00:13:45,948 --> 00:13:46,729\n請問秘書長,我們立法院有編足夠下年度的訴訟經費嗎?\n\n37\n00:14:14,915 --> 00:14:42,806\n沒有特別所以這個我要必須要了解大概因為主席處長是上一次的案啦他是有稍微考量大概我們邊的預算大概有些是可以好像可以做一個挪動但因為這一個科目上我還要必須要請教他才了解目前因為歐元可能問到這個可能因為NCC以前你的在那邊的一個經驗經驗啦那這個我倒沒有很\n\n38\n00:14:43,886 --> 00:14:48,970\n我並不是以NCC的經驗我是說以大法官這次做成的判決未來反正這個法案通過這民進黨委員也不需要等到這個法案施行一段時間之後然後才可以而且還要提案修法為國才能夠申請釋憲那以後他們動不動就釋憲呢我們預算案通過了他們不滿意立刻提起釋憲然後呢我們法案通過了之後不滿意立刻提起釋憲\n\n39\n00:15:11,283 --> 00:15:23,554\n所以我們立法院未來真的是我們的訴訟經費要擴編啊要增編啊否則是沒有辦法去滿足去應付無法應付民進黨委員動不動就來申請釋憲對這個部分其實提醒秘書長這個部分我們確實要顧慮到這次憲法裁判之後的後遺症\n\n40\n00:15:36,798 --> 00:16:00,809\n還有呢就是這次大法官還做了一個判決的這個理由讓我也是感到不可思議的大法官保障官員有說謊的權利尤其在國會的殿堂上面所以他做虛偽陳述他不提供資料他有任何的藐視國會的這樣行為完全都不可以科與他們的法律責任也不可以處罰他們\n\n41\n00:16:03,101 --> 00:16:08,743\n這很有趣耶這看起來就是像保障政府官員在立法院是享有言論免責權的他們說任何這個任何這個虛假虛偽陳述的話可以不負責任在其他的法律裡面都沒有這樣的規定喔民事訴訟法或是其他行政法裡面你越選擇這個相關當事人來作證\n\n42\n00:16:32,169 --> 00:16:55,897\n來提供文書可以提供假的可以說謊說假的不客氣的講了這批大法官真的是像外界所講的就恐龍大法官不接地氣而且也完全沒有民主法制的政治的sense連基本常識都沒有更是摧毀了台灣的民主問責的這個制度\n\n43\n00:16:57,432 --> 00:16:57,472\n翁曉玲議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3651\t24658\t在我今天開始質詢之前本席有件事情想要請教昭偉因為我看到今天的這個出席名單裡面有一樣邀請了全國律師公會還有司改會我不知道這個事情事前沒有通知我們國民黨黨團或是民眾黨黨團我們也可以推薦公民團體啊\n26491\t51167\t跟委員說明如果是公聽會的話你們同意開公聽會我們信息的公聽會就會有這樣各黨人推薦的例子那今天不是公聽會今天是專報那專報的話我們根據憲法第67條第二項可以邀請社會上的關係人士到會來備詢這是召委可以來邀請那再更正一下他們兩位都是以個人是專業律師的身份來參與那他們有他們的專業資歷那您剛剛說的是他們專業資歷之一\n55606\t56366\t好,我們現在呢\n85017\t89000\t接下來我想請那個周秘書長有請周秘書長二位好是秘書長好其實今天這個召委安排立法院秘書長周秘書長來這裡就113年的憲判字第9號判決\n107380\t130613\t國會行使職權的困境與未來然後進行專題報告那其實本席認為這個中招委安排這場專題報告難道不覺得慚愧嗎到底是誰造成立法院職權行使的困境那麼當初呢大聲的要喊反對國會改革的民進黨黨團是有在乎國會的未來嗎\n132418\t154937\t民進黨黨團看起來本來就想把國會做小把立法院矮化成為行政院的立法局把代表國家最高民意的民意機關打成是小矮人那大法官做成正號判決不是正好符合你們的心意你們今天來辦這場公聽會不覺得很矛盾嗎\n156500\t165744\t還是你們認為說這個困境是因為大法官沒有認同你們國會改革法案修法程序時候當時的訴求全部違憲呢?你們難道沒有去抗議這群大法官對於你們的訴求沒有討論沒有民主?\n179810\t186791\t很奇怪到現在為止我沒有看到民進黨黨團民進黨委員有任何的表達不滿似乎都還是拍手叫好憲法法庭的判決說這次的立法程序並沒有背離憲法公開和透明的這個討論原則並沒有背離憲法公開透明與討論原則\n206355\t212801\t說實在話你們民進黨黨團被大法官狠狠打臉竟然摸摸鼻子就算了那麼吳世瑤怎麼沒有對那群留德的大法官說\n222196\t239264\t這個立選劉德的大法官就是像許忠麗啊蔡忠貞啊謝明陽啊對他們說笑死人笑死人笑死人讀法律的劉德的你們是沒有看到民進黨黨團的訴求嗎沒有討論沒有民主啊你們是不知道舉手表決是違憲的嗎\n249127\t278653\t我真的很驚訝民進黨委員竟然不敢批評這項憲法判決還說要尊重憲法法庭說這個是台灣公民社會的勝利你們對得起那群支持你們的青鳥嗎?你們騙他們走上街頭還造謠說國會改革法案的修法過程當中是違法的、不民主的結果呢?大法官認為不是這麼回事啊\n280305\t306223\t何限呢?如果你們真心認為說這個修法過程當中是沒有討論沒有民主整部法律是違憲的就應該大聲的抨擊大法官亂判你們今天的沒有這樣的表明智黨委員今天沒有這樣的這個表態真的讓我\n307352\t321404\t看到了就是你們基本上沒有大是大非啦你們是看到這個判決結果最後是保皇了嘛就做成一個保皇判決造就了超級大政府這不是就正合你們的心意嗎\n322984\t337357\t民進黨黨團的表現的確是令人吃驚被大法官耍了還在為他們歌功頌德真是笑死人笑死人笑死人接下來我想請問秘書長請問您看到這個判決您會對這個判決結果感到驚訝嗎\n348693\t359211\t因為這是他的權利啦我未必說明什麼大概我只能跟歐委員報告是說在以\n361283\t378984\t國會的這個成員當然他所做的這個判決他的結果當然我們都按照一八號解釋當然會稍微去尊重他所以我今天的報告因為主席是要求這個職權型的困境跟未來但是\n379725\t400935\t真正來說明秘書長的角色他是只有扁院的事務啊所以他是行政之員所以就不宜針對這一個來做說明所以我才把這一個整理在後面但我把它抽離出來有幾個問題然後做一個簡單的說明\n402844\t432297\t好的謝謝秘書長當然秘書長因為您作為立法院的最高的幕僚長您不太好去批評這個釋憲機關憲法法庭所做的裁判但是我要告訴秘書長說坦白說啦我看到這樣的判決結果一點都不驚訝為什麼因為從法官當時決定要受理釋憲案的那一刻開始我就已經可以預測到今天的裁判結果了\n433973\t451761\t因為許仲麗大法庭他們違反了過去一貫他們受理釋憲案的準則過去大法官要求立法委員要先修法修法提案修法修法不成了才能夠申請釋憲才符合那個程序要件\n452813\t475500\t那麼對於如果說法案有影響到機關這個之間的這個爭議也要實際上有具體的爭議案件出來的時候那麼才符合機關這個爭議的憲法訴訟的條件可是他們這次受理這個釋憲案是完全打破過去許中立大法庭這個前面8年\n478225\t489219\t對於這個憲法訴訟受理的申請原則所以呢我就很清楚的知道這個案子絕對不可能會認為國會改革法案是合法合憲的\n490359\t491780\t所以我必須這個\n512867\t528259\t所以我在這邊我其實真的認為這個裁判、憲法判決做出來我一點都不感到驚訝、吃驚我只是認為說這再度的證明了這群大法官他們早就做成新政了啦好 那麼當然這次的憲法\n536198\t564813\t判決做成之後其實也受到社會上的這個很多的批評尤其是我們法界已經有很多的重量級的法學教授出來抨擊這號憲法判決因為呢大法官這次憲法判決他締造了三個被先進民主國家看扁的這個司法奇蹟樹立了台灣邁向獨裁國家的里程碑\n566377\t592220\t不客氣的講第一個他造就了超級大總統總統向民意報告竟然不是責任而是權力那麼台灣呢依照大法官的這個見解台灣根本不存在所謂的民主問責機制啊擁有最高權力的領導人他不需要直接間接的向民意機關負責\n593959\t619620\t就像詹森林大法官說這根本違反基本的政治常識我從這個憲法法院的這個判決裡面就可以知道啊他現在已經把台灣未來就是要走向的就是一個準獨裁政府第二個我認為他造就了一個奇蹟就是他造就了全世界\n627905\t642652\t我們看在亞洲國家裡面跟日本、韓國可能甚至跟菲律賓等等這些國家來相比我們的國會的權力是非常非常小的根本無法去制衡現在這麼蠻橫的政府\n646056\t663909\t這不是就是造就了這個全世界最弱的民主國會的奇蹟第三個就是這一次的憲法判決他再次證明我們現在的大法官擴權大法官造法\n667074\t679903\t過去一再強調的司法權要自治要自節制的這樣的一個觀念在現在這群大法官的腦海裡面是沒有的是不存在的從實質廢死的判決設下了重重的條件門檻指揮這個立法\n690799\t712394\t立法機關要如何的去立法這就是大法官造法一個最好的一個證明在這次的國會改革的事先案當中同樣的不僅做數萬裁判而且也還是說你這個不對那個不對然後你要怎麼另外要去怎麼修所以呢這確實是\n716277\t717357\t尊重委員的婚心\n747056\t747076\t好﹐\n773972\t785086\t我想無論如何在這一次的憲法判決當中我唯一比較能夠肯認的就是這群大法官倒是非常贊同秘書長您當時在我們國會改革修法過程當中的一些堅持\n792074\t792234\t韓國瑜院長\n808027\t820682\t在這次的憲法法院判決當中基本上是認為我們這次的國會改革的修法程序是合憲的就這個部分我就必須要非常肯定秘書長您確實是國會議事\n825948\t826729\t請問秘書長,我們立法院有編足夠下年度的訴訟經費嗎?\n854915\t882806\t沒有特別所以這個我要必須要了解大概因為主席處長是上一次的案啦他是有稍微考量大概我們邊的預算大概有些是可以好像可以做一個挪動但因為這一個科目上我還要必須要請教他才了解目前因為歐元可能問到這個可能因為NCC以前你的在那邊的一個經驗經驗啦那這個我倒沒有很\n883886\t888970\t我並不是以NCC的經驗我是說以大法官這次做成的判決未來反正這個法案通過這民進黨委員也不需要等到這個法案施行一段時間之後然後才可以而且還要提案修法為國才能夠申請釋憲那以後他們動不動就釋憲呢我們預算案通過了他們不滿意立刻提起釋憲然後呢我們法案通過了之後不滿意立刻提起釋憲\n911283\t923554\t所以我們立法院未來真的是我們的訴訟經費要擴編啊要增編啊否則是沒有辦法去滿足去應付無法應付民進黨委員動不動就來申請釋憲對這個部分其實提醒秘書長這個部分我們確實要顧慮到這次憲法裁判之後的後遺症\n936798\t960809\t還有呢就是這次大法官還做了一個判決的這個理由讓我也是感到不可思議的大法官保障官員有說謊的權利尤其在國會的殿堂上面所以他做虛偽陳述他不提供資料他有任何的藐視國會的這樣行為完全都不可以科與他們的法律責任也不可以處罰他們\n963101\t968743\t這很有趣耶這看起來就是像保障政府官員在立法院是享有言論免責權的他們說任何這個任何這個虛假虛偽陳述的話可以不負責任在其他的法律裡面都沒有這樣的規定喔民事訴訟法或是其他行政法裡面你越選擇這個相關當事人來作證\n992169\t1015897\t來提供文書可以提供假的可以說謊說假的不客氣的講了這批大法官真的是像外界所講的就恐龍大法官不接地氣而且也完全沒有民主法制的政治的sense連基本常識都沒有更是摧毀了台灣的民主問責的這個制度\n1017432\t1017472\t翁曉玲議員\n","txt":"在我今天開始質詢之前本席有件事情想要請教昭偉因為我看到今天的這個出席名單裡面有一樣邀請了全國律師公會還有司改會我不知道這個事情事前沒有通知我們國民黨黨團或是民眾黨黨團我們也可以推薦公民團體啊\n跟委員說明如果是公聽會的話你們同意開公聽會我們信息的公聽會就會有這樣各黨人推薦的例子那今天不是公聽會今天是專報那專報的話我們根據憲法第67條第二項可以邀請社會上的關係人士到會來備詢這是召委可以來邀請那再更正一下他們兩位都是以個人是專業律師的身份來參與那他們有他們的專業資歷那您剛剛說的是他們專業資歷之一\n好,我們現在呢\n接下來我想請那個周秘書長有請周秘書長二位好是秘書長好其實今天這個召委安排立法院秘書長周秘書長來這裡就113年的憲判字第9號判決\n國會行使職權的困境與未來然後進行專題報告那其實本席認為這個中招委安排這場專題報告難道不覺得慚愧嗎到底是誰造成立法院職權行使的困境那麼當初呢大聲的要喊反對國會改革的民進黨黨團是有在乎國會的未來嗎\n民進黨黨團看起來本來就想把國會做小把立法院矮化成為行政院的立法局把代表國家最高民意的民意機關打成是小矮人那大法官做成正號判決不是正好符合你們的心意你們今天來辦這場公聽會不覺得很矛盾嗎\n還是你們認為說這個困境是因為大法官沒有認同你們國會改革法案修法程序時候當時的訴求全部違憲呢?你們難道沒有去抗議這群大法官對於你們的訴求沒有討論沒有民主?\n很奇怪到現在為止我沒有看到民進黨黨團民進黨委員有任何的表達不滿似乎都還是拍手叫好憲法法庭的判決說這次的立法程序並沒有背離憲法公開和透明的這個討論原則並沒有背離憲法公開透明與討論原則\n說實在話你們民進黨黨團被大法官狠狠打臉竟然摸摸鼻子就算了那麼吳世瑤怎麼沒有對那群留德的大法官說\n這個立選劉德的大法官就是像許忠麗啊蔡忠貞啊謝明陽啊對他們說笑死人笑死人笑死人讀法律的劉德的你們是沒有看到民進黨黨團的訴求嗎沒有討論沒有民主啊你們是不知道舉手表決是違憲的嗎\n我真的很驚訝民進黨委員竟然不敢批評這項憲法判決還說要尊重憲法法庭說這個是台灣公民社會的勝利你們對得起那群支持你們的青鳥嗎?你們騙他們走上街頭還造謠說國會改革法案的修法過程當中是違法的、不民主的結果呢?大法官認為不是這麼回事啊\n何限呢?如果你們真心認為說這個修法過程當中是沒有討論沒有民主整部法律是違憲的就應該大聲的抨擊大法官亂判你們今天的沒有這樣的表明智黨委員今天沒有這樣的這個表態真的讓我\n看到了就是你們基本上沒有大是大非啦你們是看到這個判決結果最後是保皇了嘛就做成一個保皇判決造就了超級大政府這不是就正合你們的心意嗎\n民進黨黨團的表現的確是令人吃驚被大法官耍了還在為他們歌功頌德真是笑死人笑死人笑死人接下來我想請問秘書長請問您看到這個判決您會對這個判決結果感到驚訝嗎\n因為這是他的權利啦我未必說明什麼大概我只能跟歐委員報告是說在以\n國會的這個成員當然他所做的這個判決他的結果當然我們都按照一八號解釋當然會稍微去尊重他所以我今天的報告因為主席是要求這個職權型的困境跟未來但是\n真正來說明秘書長的角色他是只有扁院的事務啊所以他是行政之員所以就不宜針對這一個來做說明所以我才把這一個整理在後面但我把它抽離出來有幾個問題然後做一個簡單的說明\n好的謝謝秘書長當然秘書長因為您作為立法院的最高的幕僚長您不太好去批評這個釋憲機關憲法法庭所做的裁判但是我要告訴秘書長說坦白說啦我看到這樣的判決結果一點都不驚訝為什麼因為從法官當時決定要受理釋憲案的那一刻開始我就已經可以預測到今天的裁判結果了\n因為許仲麗大法庭他們違反了過去一貫他們受理釋憲案的準則過去大法官要求立法委員要先修法修法提案修法修法不成了才能夠申請釋憲才符合那個程序要件\n那麼對於如果說法案有影響到機關這個之間的這個爭議也要實際上有具體的爭議案件出來的時候那麼才符合機關這個爭議的憲法訴訟的條件可是他們這次受理這個釋憲案是完全打破過去許中立大法庭這個前面8年\n對於這個憲法訴訟受理的申請原則所以呢我就很清楚的知道這個案子絕對不可能會認為國會改革法案是合法合憲的\n所以我必須這個\n所以我在這邊我其實真的認為這個裁判、憲法判決做出來我一點都不感到驚訝、吃驚我只是認為說這再度的證明了這群大法官他們早就做成新政了啦好 那麼當然這次的憲法\n判決做成之後其實也受到社會上的這個很多的批評尤其是我們法界已經有很多的重量級的法學教授出來抨擊這號憲法判決因為呢大法官這次憲法判決他締造了三個被先進民主國家看扁的這個司法奇蹟樹立了台灣邁向獨裁國家的里程碑\n不客氣的講第一個他造就了超級大總統總統向民意報告竟然不是責任而是權力那麼台灣呢依照大法官的這個見解台灣根本不存在所謂的民主問責機制啊擁有最高權力的領導人他不需要直接間接的向民意機關負責\n就像詹森林大法官說這根本違反基本的政治常識我從這個憲法法院的這個判決裡面就可以知道啊他現在已經把台灣未來就是要走向的就是一個準獨裁政府第二個我認為他造就了一個奇蹟就是他造就了全世界\n我們看在亞洲國家裡面跟日本、韓國可能甚至跟菲律賓等等這些國家來相比我們的國會的權力是非常非常小的根本無法去制衡現在這麼蠻橫的政府\n這不是就是造就了這個全世界最弱的民主國會的奇蹟第三個就是這一次的憲法判決他再次證明我們現在的大法官擴權大法官造法\n過去一再強調的司法權要自治要自節制的這樣的一個觀念在現在這群大法官的腦海裡面是沒有的是不存在的從實質廢死的判決設下了重重的條件門檻指揮這個立法\n立法機關要如何的去立法這就是大法官造法一個最好的一個證明在這次的國會改革的事先案當中同樣的不僅做數萬裁判而且也還是說你這個不對那個不對然後你要怎麼另外要去怎麼修所以呢這確實是\n尊重委員的婚心\n好﹐\n我想無論如何在這一次的憲法判決當中我唯一比較能夠肯認的就是這群大法官倒是非常贊同秘書長您當時在我們國會改革修法過程當中的一些堅持\n韓國瑜院長\n在這次的憲法法院判決當中基本上是認為我們這次的國會改革的修法程序是合憲的就這個部分我就必須要非常肯定秘書長您確實是國會議事\n請問秘書長,我們立法院有編足夠下年度的訴訟經費嗎?\n沒有特別所以這個我要必須要了解大概因為主席處長是上一次的案啦他是有稍微考量大概我們邊的預算大概有些是可以好像可以做一個挪動但因為這一個科目上我還要必須要請教他才了解目前因為歐元可能問到這個可能因為NCC以前你的在那邊的一個經驗經驗啦那這個我倒沒有很\n我並不是以NCC的經驗我是說以大法官這次做成的判決未來反正這個法案通過這民進黨委員也不需要等到這個法案施行一段時間之後然後才可以而且還要提案修法為國才能夠申請釋憲那以後他們動不動就釋憲呢我們預算案通過了他們不滿意立刻提起釋憲然後呢我們法案通過了之後不滿意立刻提起釋憲\n所以我們立法院未來真的是我們的訴訟經費要擴編啊要增編啊否則是沒有辦法去滿足去應付無法應付民進黨委員動不動就來申請釋憲對這個部分其實提醒秘書長這個部分我們確實要顧慮到這次憲法裁判之後的後遺症\n還有呢就是這次大法官還做了一個判決的這個理由讓我也是感到不可思議的大法官保障官員有說謊的權利尤其在國會的殿堂上面所以他做虛偽陳述他不提供資料他有任何的藐視國會的這樣行為完全都不可以科與他們的法律責任也不可以處罰他們\n這很有趣耶這看起來就是像保障政府官員在立法院是享有言論免責權的他們說任何這個任何這個虛假虛偽陳述的話可以不負責任在其他的法律裡面都沒有這樣的規定喔民事訴訟法或是其他行政法裡面你越選擇這個相關當事人來作證\n來提供文書可以提供假的可以說謊說假的不客氣的講了這批大法官真的是像外界所講的就恐龍大法官不接地氣而且也完全沒有民主法制的政治的sense連基本常識都沒有更是摧毀了台灣的民主問責的這個制度\n翁曉玲議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.651 --> 00:24.658\n在我今天開始質詢之前本席有件事情想要請教昭偉因為我看到今天的這個出席名單裡面有一樣邀請了全國律師公會還有司改會我不知道這個事情事前沒有通知我們國民黨黨團或是民眾黨黨團我們也可以推薦公民團體啊\n\n00:26.491 --> 00:51.167\n跟委員說明如果是公聽會的話你們同意開公聽會我們信息的公聽會就會有這樣各黨人推薦的例子那今天不是公聽會今天是專報那專報的話我們根據憲法第67條第二項可以邀請社會上的關係人士到會來備詢這是召委可以來邀請那再更正一下他們兩位都是以個人是專業律師的身份來參與那他們有他們的專業資歷那您剛剛說的是他們專業資歷之一\n\n00:55.606 --> 00:56.366\n好,我們現在呢\n\n01:25.017 --> 01:29.000\n接下來我想請那個周秘書長有請周秘書長二位好是秘書長好其實今天這個召委安排立法院秘書長周秘書長來這裡就113年的憲判字第9號判決\n\n01:47.380 --> 02:10.613\n國會行使職權的困境與未來然後進行專題報告那其實本席認為這個中招委安排這場專題報告難道不覺得慚愧嗎到底是誰造成立法院職權行使的困境那麼當初呢大聲的要喊反對國會改革的民進黨黨團是有在乎國會的未來嗎\n\n02:12.418 --> 02:34.937\n民進黨黨團看起來本來就想把國會做小把立法院矮化成為行政院的立法局把代表國家最高民意的民意機關打成是小矮人那大法官做成正號判決不是正好符合你們的心意你們今天來辦這場公聽會不覺得很矛盾嗎\n\n02:36.500 --> 02:45.744\n還是你們認為說這個困境是因為大法官沒有認同你們國會改革法案修法程序時候當時的訴求全部違憲呢?你們難道沒有去抗議這群大法官對於你們的訴求沒有討論沒有民主?\n\n02:59.810 --> 03:06.791\n很奇怪到現在為止我沒有看到民進黨黨團民進黨委員有任何的表達不滿似乎都還是拍手叫好憲法法庭的判決說這次的立法程序並沒有背離憲法公開和透明的這個討論原則並沒有背離憲法公開透明與討論原則\n\n03:26.355 --> 03:32.801\n說實在話你們民進黨黨團被大法官狠狠打臉竟然摸摸鼻子就算了那麼吳世瑤怎麼沒有對那群留德的大法官說\n\n03:42.196 --> 03:59.264\n這個立選劉德的大法官就是像許忠麗啊蔡忠貞啊謝明陽啊對他們說笑死人笑死人笑死人讀法律的劉德的你們是沒有看到民進黨黨團的訴求嗎沒有討論沒有民主啊你們是不知道舉手表決是違憲的嗎\n\n04:09.127 --> 04:38.653\n我真的很驚訝民進黨委員竟然不敢批評這項憲法判決還說要尊重憲法法庭說這個是台灣公民社會的勝利你們對得起那群支持你們的青鳥嗎?你們騙他們走上街頭還造謠說國會改革法案的修法過程當中是違法的、不民主的結果呢?大法官認為不是這麼回事啊\n\n04:40.305 --> 05:06.223\n何限呢?如果你們真心認為說這個修法過程當中是沒有討論沒有民主整部法律是違憲的就應該大聲的抨擊大法官亂判你們今天的沒有這樣的表明智黨委員今天沒有這樣的這個表態真的讓我\n\n05:07.352 --> 05:21.404\n看到了就是你們基本上沒有大是大非啦你們是看到這個判決結果最後是保皇了嘛就做成一個保皇判決造就了超級大政府這不是就正合你們的心意嗎\n\n05:22.984 --> 05:37.357\n民進黨黨團的表現的確是令人吃驚被大法官耍了還在為他們歌功頌德真是笑死人笑死人笑死人接下來我想請問秘書長請問您看到這個判決您會對這個判決結果感到驚訝嗎\n\n05:48.693 --> 05:59.211\n因為這是他的權利啦我未必說明什麼大概我只能跟歐委員報告是說在以\n\n06:01.283 --> 06:18.984\n國會的這個成員當然他所做的這個判決他的結果當然我們都按照一八號解釋當然會稍微去尊重他所以我今天的報告因為主席是要求這個職權型的困境跟未來但是\n\n06:19.725 --> 06:40.935\n真正來說明秘書長的角色他是只有扁院的事務啊所以他是行政之員所以就不宜針對這一個來做說明所以我才把這一個整理在後面但我把它抽離出來有幾個問題然後做一個簡單的說明\n\n06:42.844 --> 07:12.297\n好的謝謝秘書長當然秘書長因為您作為立法院的最高的幕僚長您不太好去批評這個釋憲機關憲法法庭所做的裁判但是我要告訴秘書長說坦白說啦我看到這樣的判決結果一點都不驚訝為什麼因為從法官當時決定要受理釋憲案的那一刻開始我就已經可以預測到今天的裁判結果了\n\n07:13.973 --> 07:31.761\n因為許仲麗大法庭他們違反了過去一貫他們受理釋憲案的準則過去大法官要求立法委員要先修法修法提案修法修法不成了才能夠申請釋憲才符合那個程序要件\n\n07:32.813 --> 07:55.500\n那麼對於如果說法案有影響到機關這個之間的這個爭議也要實際上有具體的爭議案件出來的時候那麼才符合機關這個爭議的憲法訴訟的條件可是他們這次受理這個釋憲案是完全打破過去許中立大法庭這個前面8年\n\n07:58.225 --> 08:09.219\n對於這個憲法訴訟受理的申請原則所以呢我就很清楚的知道這個案子絕對不可能會認為國會改革法案是合法合憲的\n\n08:10.359 --> 08:11.780\n所以我必須這個\n\n08:32.867 --> 08:48.259\n所以我在這邊我其實真的認為這個裁判、憲法判決做出來我一點都不感到驚訝、吃驚我只是認為說這再度的證明了這群大法官他們早就做成新政了啦好那麼當然這次的憲法\n\n08:56.198 --> 09:24.813\n判決做成之後其實也受到社會上的這個很多的批評尤其是我們法界已經有很多的重量級的法學教授出來抨擊這號憲法判決因為呢大法官這次憲法判決他締造了三個被先進民主國家看扁的這個司法奇蹟樹立了台灣邁向獨裁國家的里程碑\n\n09:26.377 --> 09:52.220\n不客氣的講第一個他造就了超級大總統總統向民意報告竟然不是責任而是權力那麼台灣呢依照大法官的這個見解台灣根本不存在所謂的民主問責機制啊擁有最高權力的領導人他不需要直接間接的向民意機關負責\n\n09:53.959 --> 10:19.620\n就像詹森林大法官說這根本違反基本的政治常識我從這個憲法法院的這個判決裡面就可以知道啊他現在已經把台灣未來就是要走向的就是一個準獨裁政府第二個我認為他造就了一個奇蹟就是他造就了全世界\n\n10:27.905 --> 10:42.652\n我們看在亞洲國家裡面跟日本、韓國可能甚至跟菲律賓等等這些國家來相比我們的國會的權力是非常非常小的根本無法去制衡現在這麼蠻橫的政府\n\n10:46.056 --> 11:03.909\n這不是就是造就了這個全世界最弱的民主國會的奇蹟第三個就是這一次的憲法判決他再次證明我們現在的大法官擴權大法官造法\n\n11:07.074 --> 11:19.903\n過去一再強調的司法權要自治要自節制的這樣的一個觀念在現在這群大法官的腦海裡面是沒有的是不存在的從實質廢死的判決設下了重重的條件門檻指揮這個立法\n\n11:30.799 --> 11:52.394\n立法機關要如何的去立法這就是大法官造法一個最好的一個證明在這次的國會改革的事先案當中同樣的不僅做數萬裁判而且也還是說你這個不對那個不對然後你要怎麼另外要去怎麼修所以呢這確實是\n\n11:56.277 --> 11:57.357\n尊重委員的婚心\n\n12:27.056 --> 12:27.076\n好﹐\n\n12:53.972 --> 13:05.086\n我想無論如何在這一次的憲法判決當中我唯一比較能夠肯認的就是這群大法官倒是非常贊同秘書長您當時在我們國會改革修法過程當中的一些堅持\n\n13:12.074 --> 13:12.234\n韓國瑜院長\n\n13:28.027 --> 13:40.682\n在這次的憲法法院判決當中基本上是認為我們這次的國會改革的修法程序是合憲的就這個部分我就必須要非常肯定秘書長您確實是國會議事\n\n13:45.948 --> 13:46.729\n請問秘書長,我們立法院有編足夠下年度的訴訟經費嗎?\n\n14:14.915 --> 14:42.806\n沒有特別所以這個我要必須要了解大概因為主席處長是上一次的案啦他是有稍微考量大概我們邊的預算大概有些是可以好像可以做一個挪動但因為這一個科目上我還要必須要請教他才了解目前因為歐元可能問到這個可能因為NCC以前你的在那邊的一個經驗經驗啦那這個我倒沒有很\n\n14:43.886 --> 14:48.970\n我並不是以NCC的經驗我是說以大法官這次做成的判決未來反正這個法案通過這民進黨委員也不需要等到這個法案施行一段時間之後然後才可以而且還要提案修法為國才能夠申請釋憲那以後他們動不動就釋憲呢我們預算案通過了他們不滿意立刻提起釋憲然後呢我們法案通過了之後不滿意立刻提起釋憲\n\n15:11.283 --> 15:23.554\n所以我們立法院未來真的是我們的訴訟經費要擴編啊要增編啊否則是沒有辦法去滿足去應付無法應付民進黨委員動不動就來申請釋憲對這個部分其實提醒秘書長這個部分我們確實要顧慮到這次憲法裁判之後的後遺症\n\n15:36.798 --> 16:00.809\n還有呢就是這次大法官還做了一個判決的這個理由讓我也是感到不可思議的大法官保障官員有說謊的權利尤其在國會的殿堂上面所以他做虛偽陳述他不提供資料他有任何的藐視國會的這樣行為完全都不可以科與他們的法律責任也不可以處罰他們\n\n16:03.101 --> 16:08.743\n這很有趣耶這看起來就是像保障政府官員在立法院是享有言論免責權的他們說任何這個任何這個虛假虛偽陳述的話可以不負責任在其他的法律裡面都沒有這樣的規定喔民事訴訟法或是其他行政法裡面你越選擇這個相關當事人來作證\n\n16:32.169 --> 16:55.897\n來提供文書可以提供假的可以說謊說假的不客氣的講了這批大法官真的是像外界所講的就恐龍大法官不接地氣而且也完全沒有民主法制的政治的sense連基本常識都沒有更是摧毀了台灣的民主問責的這個制度\n\n16:57.432 --> 16:57.472\n翁曉玲議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.651,"end":24.658,"text":"在我今天開始質詢之前本席有件事情想要請教昭偉因為我看到今天的這個出席名單裡面有一樣邀請了全國律師公會還有司改會我不知道這個事情事前沒有通知我們國民黨黨團或是民眾黨黨團我們也可以推薦公民團體啊"},{"start":26.491,"end":51.167,"text":"跟委員說明如果是公聽會的話你們同意開公聽會我們信息的公聽會就會有這樣各黨人推薦的例子那今天不是公聽會今天是專報那專報的話我們根據憲法第67條第二項可以邀請社會上的關係人士到會來備詢這是召委可以來邀請那再更正一下他們兩位都是以個人是專業律師的身份來參與那他們有他們的專業資歷那您剛剛說的是他們專業資歷之一"},{"start":55.606,"end":56.366,"text":"好,我們現在呢"},{"start":85.017,"end":89,"text":"接下來我想請那個周秘書長有請周秘書長二位好是秘書長好其實今天這個召委安排立法院秘書長周秘書長來這裡就113年的憲判字第9號判決"},{"start":107.38,"end":130.613,"text":"國會行使職權的困境與未來然後進行專題報告那其實本席認為這個中招委安排這場專題報告難道不覺得慚愧嗎到底是誰造成立法院職權行使的困境那麼當初呢大聲的要喊反對國會改革的民進黨黨團是有在乎國會的未來嗎"},{"start":132.418,"end":154.937,"text":"民進黨黨團看起來本來就想把國會做小把立法院矮化成為行政院的立法局把代表國家最高民意的民意機關打成是小矮人那大法官做成正號判決不是正好符合你們的心意你們今天來辦這場公聽會不覺得很矛盾嗎"},{"start":156.5,"end":165.744,"text":"還是你們認為說這個困境是因為大法官沒有認同你們國會改革法案修法程序時候當時的訴求全部違憲呢?你們難道沒有去抗議這群大法官對於你們的訴求沒有討論沒有民主?"},{"start":179.81,"end":186.791,"text":"很奇怪到現在為止我沒有看到民進黨黨團民進黨委員有任何的表達不滿似乎都還是拍手叫好憲法法庭的判決說這次的立法程序並沒有背離憲法公開和透明的這個討論原則並沒有背離憲法公開透明與討論原則"},{"start":206.355,"end":212.801,"text":"說實在話你們民進黨黨團被大法官狠狠打臉竟然摸摸鼻子就算了那麼吳世瑤怎麼沒有對那群留德的大法官說"},{"start":222.196,"end":239.264,"text":"這個立選劉德的大法官就是像許忠麗啊蔡忠貞啊謝明陽啊對他們說笑死人笑死人笑死人讀法律的劉德的你們是沒有看到民進黨黨團的訴求嗎沒有討論沒有民主啊你們是不知道舉手表決是違憲的嗎"},{"start":249.127,"end":278.653,"text":"我真的很驚訝民進黨委員竟然不敢批評這項憲法判決還說要尊重憲法法庭說這個是台灣公民社會的勝利你們對得起那群支持你們的青鳥嗎?你們騙他們走上街頭還造謠說國會改革法案的修法過程當中是違法的、不民主的結果呢?大法官認為不是這麼回事啊"},{"start":280.305,"end":306.223,"text":"何限呢?如果你們真心認為說這個修法過程當中是沒有討論沒有民主整部法律是違憲的就應該大聲的抨擊大法官亂判你們今天的沒有這樣的表明智黨委員今天沒有這樣的這個表態真的讓我"},{"start":307.352,"end":321.404,"text":"看到了就是你們基本上沒有大是大非啦你們是看到這個判決結果最後是保皇了嘛就做成一個保皇判決造就了超級大政府這不是就正合你們的心意嗎"},{"start":322.984,"end":337.357,"text":"民進黨黨團的表現的確是令人吃驚被大法官耍了還在為他們歌功頌德真是笑死人笑死人笑死人接下來我想請問秘書長請問您看到這個判決您會對這個判決結果感到驚訝嗎"},{"start":348.693,"end":359.211,"text":"因為這是他的權利啦我未必說明什麼大概我只能跟歐委員報告是說在以"},{"start":361.283,"end":378.984,"text":"國會的這個成員當然他所做的這個判決他的結果當然我們都按照一八號解釋當然會稍微去尊重他所以我今天的報告因為主席是要求這個職權型的困境跟未來但是"},{"start":379.725,"end":400.935,"text":"真正來說明秘書長的角色他是只有扁院的事務啊所以他是行政之員所以就不宜針對這一個來做說明所以我才把這一個整理在後面但我把它抽離出來有幾個問題然後做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":402.844,"end":432.297,"text":"好的謝謝秘書長當然秘書長因為您作為立法院的最高的幕僚長您不太好去批評這個釋憲機關憲法法庭所做的裁判但是我要告訴秘書長說坦白說啦我看到這樣的判決結果一點都不驚訝為什麼因為從法官當時決定要受理釋憲案的那一刻開始我就已經可以預測到今天的裁判結果了"},{"start":433.973,"end":451.761,"text":"因為許仲麗大法庭他們違反了過去一貫他們受理釋憲案的準則過去大法官要求立法委員要先修法修法提案修法修法不成了才能夠申請釋憲才符合那個程序要件"},{"start":452.813,"end":475.5,"text":"那麼對於如果說法案有影響到機關這個之間的這個爭議也要實際上有具體的爭議案件出來的時候那麼才符合機關這個爭議的憲法訴訟的條件可是他們這次受理這個釋憲案是完全打破過去許中立大法庭這個前面8年"},{"start":478.225,"end":489.219,"text":"對於這個憲法訴訟受理的申請原則所以呢我就很清楚的知道這個案子絕對不可能會認為國會改革法案是合法合憲的"},{"start":490.359,"end":491.78,"text":"所以我必須這個"},{"start":512.867,"end":528.259,"text":"所以我在這邊我其實真的認為這個裁判、憲法判決做出來我一點都不感到驚訝、吃驚我只是認為說這再度的證明了這群大法官他們早就做成新政了啦好 那麼當然這次的憲法"},{"start":536.198,"end":564.813,"text":"判決做成之後其實也受到社會上的這個很多的批評尤其是我們法界已經有很多的重量級的法學教授出來抨擊這號憲法判決因為呢大法官這次憲法判決他締造了三個被先進民主國家看扁的這個司法奇蹟樹立了台灣邁向獨裁國家的里程碑"},{"start":566.377,"end":592.22,"text":"不客氣的講第一個他造就了超級大總統總統向民意報告竟然不是責任而是權力那麼台灣呢依照大法官的這個見解台灣根本不存在所謂的民主問責機制啊擁有最高權力的領導人他不需要直接間接的向民意機關負責"},{"start":593.959,"end":619.62,"text":"就像詹森林大法官說這根本違反基本的政治常識我從這個憲法法院的這個判決裡面就可以知道啊他現在已經把台灣未來就是要走向的就是一個準獨裁政府第二個我認為他造就了一個奇蹟就是他造就了全世界"},{"start":627.905,"end":642.652,"text":"我們看在亞洲國家裡面跟日本、韓國可能甚至跟菲律賓等等這些國家來相比我們的國會的權力是非常非常小的根本無法去制衡現在這麼蠻橫的政府"},{"start":646.056,"end":663.909,"text":"這不是就是造就了這個全世界最弱的民主國會的奇蹟第三個就是這一次的憲法判決他再次證明我們現在的大法官擴權大法官造法"},{"start":667.074,"end":679.903,"text":"過去一再強調的司法權要自治要自節制的這樣的一個觀念在現在這群大法官的腦海裡面是沒有的是不存在的從實質廢死的判決設下了重重的條件門檻指揮這個立法"},{"start":690.799,"end":712.394,"text":"立法機關要如何的去立法這就是大法官造法一個最好的一個證明在這次的國會改革的事先案當中同樣的不僅做數萬裁判而且也還是說你這個不對那個不對然後你要怎麼另外要去怎麼修所以呢這確實是"},{"start":716.277,"end":717.357,"text":"尊重委員的婚心"},{"start":747.056,"end":747.076,"text":"好﹐"},{"start":773.972,"end":785.086,"text":"我想無論如何在這一次的憲法判決當中我唯一比較能夠肯認的就是這群大法官倒是非常贊同秘書長您當時在我們國會改革修法過程當中的一些堅持"},{"start":792.074,"end":792.234,"text":"韓國瑜院長"},{"start":808.027,"end":820.682,"text":"在這次的憲法法院判決當中基本上是認為我們這次的國會改革的修法程序是合憲的就這個部分我就必須要非常肯定秘書長您確實是國會議事"},{"start":825.948,"end":826.729,"text":"請問秘書長,我們立法院有編足夠下年度的訴訟經費嗎?"},{"start":854.915,"end":882.806,"text":"沒有特別所以這個我要必須要了解大概因為主席處長是上一次的案啦他是有稍微考量大概我們邊的預算大概有些是可以好像可以做一個挪動但因為這一個科目上我還要必須要請教他才了解目前因為歐元可能問到這個可能因為NCC以前你的在那邊的一個經驗經驗啦那這個我倒沒有很"},{"start":883.886,"end":888.97,"text":"我並不是以NCC的經驗我是說以大法官這次做成的判決未來反正這個法案通過這民進黨委員也不需要等到這個法案施行一段時間之後然後才可以而且還要提案修法為國才能夠申請釋憲那以後他們動不動就釋憲呢我們預算案通過了他們不滿意立刻提起釋憲然後呢我們法案通過了之後不滿意立刻提起釋憲"},{"start":911.283,"end":923.554,"text":"所以我們立法院未來真的是我們的訴訟經費要擴編啊要增編啊否則是沒有辦法去滿足去應付無法應付民進黨委員動不動就來申請釋憲對這個部分其實提醒秘書長這個部分我們確實要顧慮到這次憲法裁判之後的後遺症"},{"start":936.798,"end":960.809,"text":"還有呢就是這次大法官還做了一個判決的這個理由讓我也是感到不可思議的大法官保障官員有說謊的權利尤其在國會的殿堂上面所以他做虛偽陳述他不提供資料他有任何的藐視國會的這樣行為完全都不可以科與他們的法律責任也不可以處罰他們"},{"start":963.101,"end":968.743,"text":"這很有趣耶這看起來就是像保障政府官員在立法院是享有言論免責權的他們說任何這個任何這個虛假虛偽陳述的話可以不負責任在其他的法律裡面都沒有這樣的規定喔民事訴訟法或是其他行政法裡面你越選擇這個相關當事人來作證"},{"start":992.169,"end":1015.897,"text":"來提供文書可以提供假的可以說謊說假的不客氣的講了這批大法官真的是像外界所講的就恐龍大法官不接地氣而且也完全沒有民主法制的政治的sense連基本常識都沒有更是摧毀了台灣的民主問責的這個制度"},{"start":1017.432,"end":1017.472,"text":"翁曉玲議員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時26分）在開始今天的質詢之前，本席有件事情想請教召委。因為我看到今天出席名單裡有邀請了全國律師公會及司改會，我不知道這個事情事前有沒有通知我們國民黨黨團或民眾黨黨團？這樣我們也可以推薦公民團體啊！"],["主席：跟委員說明，如果是公聽會的話，你們同意開公聽會，那麼公聽會就會有這樣各黨團推薦的例子。但今天不是公聽會，今天是專報，專報的話，我們根據憲法第六十七條第二項可以邀請社會上的關係人士到會來備詢，這是召委可以來邀請。我再更正一下，他們兩位都是以個人是專業律師的身分來參與，他們有他們的專業資歷，您剛剛說的是他們的專業資歷之一。"],["翁委員曉玲：依照憲法可以邀請社會上的關係人士來，所以您就只有認為這兩位律師是符合專業的，其他的人通通都不見得是符合專業的嗎？這兩位律師裡面，其中有一位都還是行政院的憲改……"],["主席：翁委員，上週一的時候，吳召委也是邀請了兩位，你可以看看上週一吳召委的邀請。"],["翁委員曉玲：希望召委以後在主持議事的時候還是公平一點……"],["主席：我們也希望國民黨可以同意開公聽會，到時候你們可以推派代表。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我想請周秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長好。今天召委安排立法院周秘書長來這裡就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，其實本席認為鍾召委安排這場專題報告難道不覺得慚愧嗎？到底是誰造成立法院職權行使的困境？當初大聲喊反對國會改革的民進黨黨團，是有在乎國會的未來嗎？民進黨黨團看起來本來就想把國會做小，把立法院矮化成為行政院的立法局，把代表國家民意的最高民意機關打成小矮人，大法官做成這號判決不是正好符合你們的心意嗎？你們今天來辦這場公聽會，不覺得很矛盾嗎？還是你們認為這個困境是因為大法官沒有認同你們國會改革法案修法的程序？當時你們的訴求是全部違憲啊！你們難道沒有去抗議這群大法官對於你們的訴求沒有討論、沒有民主？很奇怪，到現在為止，我沒有看到民進黨黨團、民進黨委員有表達任何的不滿，似乎都還是拍手叫好。憲法法庭的判決說，這次立法程序並沒有悖離憲法公開透明與討論原則，說實在話，民進黨黨團被大法官狠狠打臉，竟然摸摸鼻子就算了。吳思瑤怎麼沒有對許宗力、蔡宗珍、謝銘洋那群留德的大法官說：笑死人！笑死人！笑死人！讀法律的、留德的，你們是沒有看到民進黨黨團的訴求嗎？沒有討論、沒有民主啊！你們不知道舉手表決是違憲的嗎？我真的很驚訝，民進黨委員竟然不敢批評這項憲法判決，還說要尊重憲法法庭，說這個是臺灣公民社會的勝利，你們對得起那群支持你們的青鳥嗎？你們騙他們走上街頭，還造謠說國會改革法案的修法過程是違法的、不民主的。結果大法官認為不是這麼回事，合憲啊！如果你們真心認為這個修法過程當中是沒有討論、沒有民主，整部法律是違憲的，就應該大聲的抨擊大法官亂判。民進黨委員今天沒有這樣表態，真的讓我看到了你們基本上沒有大是大非，你們是看到這個判決結果最後是保皇了嘛，就作成一個保皇判決，造就了超級大政府，這不是正合你們的心意嗎？民進黨黨團的表現的確是令人吃驚，被大法官耍了，還在為他們歌功頌德，真是笑死人！笑死人！笑死人！","接下來我想請問秘書長，請問您看到這個判決，您會對於這個判決結果感到驚訝嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這是他的權力，我也未便說明什麼，大概我只能跟翁委員報告的是說，在以國會的成員，當然他所做的這個判決的結果，當然我們就按照185號解釋，當然會稍微去尊重他，所以我今天的報告，因為主席是要求我就「國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行報告，但是真正來說的話，秘書長的角色是只有本院的事務，因為他是行政支援，所以就不宜，不宜針對這一個來做說明……"],["翁委員曉玲：是。好的，好。"],["周秘書長萬來：所以我才把這一個整理在後面，但有幾個問題我把它抽離出來，然後做一個簡單的說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。好的，謝謝秘書長。當然秘書長，因為您作為立法院的最高幕僚長，您不太好去批評釋憲機關憲法法庭所做的裁判，但是我要告訴秘書長，坦白說，我看到這樣的判決結果，一點都不驚訝，為什麼？因為從大法官當時決定要受理釋憲案的那一刻開始，我就已經可以預測到今天的裁判結果了，因為許宗力大法庭，他們違反了過去一貫他們受理釋憲案的準則。","過去大法官要求立法委員要先修法，提案修法，修法不成才能夠聲請釋憲，才符合程序要件；如果法案有影響到機關之間的爭議，也要實際上有具體的爭議案件出來後，才符合機關爭議的憲法訴訟條件。可是，他們這次受理的這個釋憲案，是完全打破過去許宗力大法庭前面8年，對於憲法訴訟受理的聲請原則。所以我就很清楚的知道，這個案子絕對不可能會認為，國會改革法案是合法合憲的。","再說，他們在暫時處分裡面，其實早就已經透露出會有今天這樣的結果嘛！這個法律都還沒有開始實施，也沒有造成任何重大急迫不可回復的損害，就已經把很多重要的條文都凍結啦。所以在這邊我其實真的認為，這個憲法判決做出來，我一點都不感到驚訝、吃驚，我只是認為這再度的證明了，這群大法官他們早就做成心證了！","當然這次的憲法判決做成之後，其實也受到社會上很多的批評，尤其是我們法界已經有很多重量級的法學教授出來抨擊這號憲法判決，因為大法官這次憲法判決締造了三個被先進民主國家看扁的司法奇蹟，樹立了臺灣邁向獨裁國家的里程碑。","不客氣的講，第一個，它造就了超級大總統。總統向民意報告竟然不是責任而是權力，那麼依照大法官的見解，臺灣根本不存在所謂的民主問責機制。擁有最高權力的領導人，他不需要直接、間接的向民意機關負責。就像詹森林大法官說，這根本違反基本的政治常識。我們從憲法法院的這個判決裡面就可以知道，它現在已經把臺灣未來就是要走向一個準獨裁政府。","第二個，我認為它造就了一個奇蹟就是，它造就了全世界經濟富裕的國家，但是卻有個最弱的民主國會。我們看在亞洲國家裡面，跟日本、韓國，可能甚至跟菲律賓等等這些國家來相比，我們國會的權力是非常非常小的，根本無法去制衡現在這麼蠻橫的政府，這不是就造就了這個全世界最弱的民主國會的奇蹟？","第三個就是這次的憲法判決，它再次證明我們現在的大法官擴權、大法官造法！過去一再強調司法權要自制、要節制的這樣一個觀念，在現在這群大法官的腦海裡面是沒有的、是不存在的！從實質廢死的判決，設下了重重的條件門檻，指揮立法機關要如何的去立法，這就是大法官造法的一個最好的證明。在這次國會改革的釋憲案當中，同樣的，不僅做訴外的裁判，而且也還是說你這個不對、那個不對，然後你要怎麼定，要另外去怎麼修，所以這確實是造就了在西方民主法治國家裡面完全不可想像的一個司法奇蹟。大法官口口聲聲說這次國會改革法案有損害了行政特權，在本席看來，其實他們才是侵害了立法特權、立法的核心價值，不曉得秘書長同不同意我的看法？"],["周秘書長萬來：尊重委員的分析。"],["翁委員曉玲：很多法律學者看到這個判決都非常的寒心，好不容易過去我們臺灣的法學界努力希望能夠達成民主法治國家的目標，可是在這批大法官手中已經倒退到滿清帝國時代了！好，我想無論如何，在這一次的憲法判決當中，我唯一比較能夠肯認的就是，這群大法官倒是非常贊同秘書長您當時在我們國會改革修法過程當中的一些堅持。您當時對我們在修法過程很多議事的判斷上面，我相信您有給韓國瑜院長很多很重要的建議，而這些建議事實上都是合法、合憲的建議，所以在這次憲法法庭的判決當中，基本上是認為我們這次國會改革的修法程序是合憲的。就這個部分，我就必須要非常肯定秘書長，您確實是國會議事的專家，然後幫我們堅持住了國會議事自主的精神，在合憲、合法的前提之下維護了國會議事自主的精神。","接下來我想請問，因為大法官這號判決做成之後，想必事後應該會有很多的釋憲案，我想請問秘書長，我們立法院有編足下年度的訴訟經費嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有特別，所以這個我必須要了解，因為主計處長對上一次那個案是有稍微考量，大概我們編的預算有些好像可以做一個挪動，但是在這個科目上我還必須要請教他才了解。翁委員問到這個，可能因為你有以前在NCC那邊的一個經驗，對這方面我倒是沒有……"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有，其實我並不是以在NCC的經驗，我是說以大法官這次做成的判決，未來反正法案通過了，民進黨委員也不需要等到法案施行一段時間之後，而且還要提案修法未果才能夠聲請釋憲！以後他們可以動不動就聲請釋憲啊！我們預算案通過了，他們不滿意就立刻提起釋憲；然後我們法案通過了之後，不滿意就立刻提起釋憲！所以我們立法院未來真的是訴訟經費要擴編、要增編，否則沒有辦法去滿足、去應付，無法應付民進黨委員動不動就來聲請釋憲。這個部分其實要提醒秘書長，這個部分我們確實要顧慮到在這次憲法裁判之後的後遺症。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝提醒。"],["翁委員曉玲：還有，這次大法官還做了一個判決的理由讓我也是感到不可思議的，就是大法官保障官員有說謊的權利，尤其在國會的殿堂上面。所以他做虛偽陳述、他不提供資料、他有任何藐視國會的行為，完全都不可以課予他們的法律責任，也不可以處罰他們。這很有趣耶，看起來就是像保障政府官員在立法院是享有言論免責權的。他們說任何虛假、虛偽陳述的話，可以不負責任！在其他的法律裡面都沒有這樣的規定，在民事訴訟法或是其他行政法裡面，約詢相關當事人來作證、提供文書，可以提供假的，可以說謊、說假的。不客氣地講，這批大法官真的是像外界所講的，就是恐龍大法官，不接地氣，而且也完全沒有民主法治的sense，連基本常識都沒有，更是摧毀了臺灣民主問責的制度。","很遺憾看到這樣的憲法裁判，但是我必須說，秘書長，您辛苦了，尤其在這次的國會改革法案當中，您確實非常認真、努力地在捍衛我們議事的正當法律程序，在這邊還是要向您致敬。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員，謝謝周秘書長。","現在先處理會議時間。上午會議時間繼續進行至議程所列事項均處理完畢為止。"],["主席（陳委員俊宇代）：繼續我們邀請鍾佳濱委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}}