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00:00:46,736\n市上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,\n\n4\n00:00:50,058 --> 00:01:17,565\n新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長\n\n5\n00:01:18,405 --> 00:01:32,762\n昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份所以你是以被告身份?是好,那麼我就請教院長\n\n6\n00:01:33,973 --> 00:01:58,023\n操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下\n\n7\n00:01:59,764 --> 00:02:14,104\n以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,\n\n8\n00:02:15,438 --> 00:02:29,198\n被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院系署當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點\n\n9\n00:02:31,241 --> 00:02:54,257\n我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策我晚上就會談所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的\n\n10\n00:02:55,037 --> 00:02:55,277\n委員,我們\n\n11\n00:03:24,830 --> 00:03:31,886\n在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題\n\n12\n00:03:33,101 --> 00:04:00,127\n我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。\n\n13\n00:04:01,047 --> 00:04:26,695\n那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責台灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指台灣是半寶體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他\n\n14\n00:04:27,677 --> 00:04:27,898\n主席\n\n15\n00:04:34,946 --> 00:04:58,548\n我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊我怎麼去他沒有問你我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長你同意嗎?\n\n16\n00:04:59,649 --> 00:05:19,789\n當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問\n\n17\n00:05:21,511 --> 00:05:37,687\n因為我遺憾的是﹐川普不是第一次說﹐一說再說﹐如果他當選之後﹐那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了﹐絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力﹐兩位同意吧﹐\n\n18\n00:05:38,974 --> 00:06:03,501\n報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人\n\n19\n00:06:04,616 --> 00:06:15,266\n他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話臺灣更重要因為臺灣有半導體業\n\n20\n00:06:18,479 --> 00:06:19,901\n本院內政委員會報告\n\n21\n00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:39,060\n。（10月30日（。三\n\n22\n00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:36,350\n剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展\n\n23\n00:07:37,450 --> 00:07:51,908\n我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動我知道院長講得非常含蓄你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話\n\n24\n00:07:54,892 --> 00:08:07,300\n我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。\n\n25\n00:08:31,039 --> 00:08:40,963\n二號合二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅（總共條幅高達66%之多（\n\n26\n00:08:47,606 --> 00:08:57,169\n所以我今天把我們和二廠一號機和二廠二號機和三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價\n\n27\n00:09:14,534 --> 00:09:22,626\n至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯\n\n28\n00:09:30,197 --> 00:09:44,024\n部長院長你知道嗎事實上早在今年的三四月的時候國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前對不對了解都已經回復了但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢剛才不院長也點頭我們為什麼還要漲價呢\n\n29\n00:09:49,767 --> 00:10:16,550\n因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了\n\n30\n00:10:18,386 --> 00:10:19,266\n兩點答覆委員,第一個,我們剛剛講的是\n\n31\n00:10:44,536 --> 00:11:03,400\n凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回降下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題\n\n32\n00:11:13,035 --> 00:11:41,846\n河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們現在人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做\n\n33\n00:11:42,666 --> 00:12:04,301\n現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都幫你把它做出來了。\n\n34\n00:12:06,232 --> 00:12:20,088\n電價上漲（台灣的電價上漲（不是隨著國際能源價格而波動（而是隨著核電廠廚藝（而一步一步的上漲（今年兩次（今年調兩次之多（\n\n35\n00:12:21,289 --> 00:12:40,398\n所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說\n\n36\n00:12:50,381 --> 00:13:16,548\n臺積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠、在德國的設廠他說在他的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的為什麼呢?因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓臺積電自己發電啊就讓臺積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊河二廠已經除役了對不對河二廠經常在供電\n\n37\n00:13:17,868 --> 00:13:33,074\n為什麼經常在供電?因為荷二廠的汽渦輪機組要供電,不然不夠啊!那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話,一度電多少錢?部長知道一度電多少錢嗎?現在喔,台積電的電價部分,你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少?\n\n38\n00:13:40,810 --> 00:13:43,131\n臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電\n\n39\n00:14:06,991 --> 00:14:32,339\n臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外乎有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的\n\n40\n00:14:34,702 --> 00:14:56,837\n臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長如始不時人間煙火委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心\n\n41\n00:14:59,919 --> 00:15:21,305\n雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀\n\n42\n00:15:56,441 --> 00:16:07,949\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n287\t9345\t好謝謝主席我請我們院長還有經濟部長跟農業部長麻煩再請左院長兩位部長備詢\n17838\t30804\t黃委員早院長早兩位部長早黃委員早院長部長先講一下剛才郭委員這幾次他都特別提到了有關於南電北送那我在這邊特別提供一個數據\n32185\t46736\t市上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,\n50058\t77565\t新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長\n78405\t92762\t昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份所以你是以被告身份?是好,那麼我就請教院長\n93973\t118023\t操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下\n119764\t134104\t以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,\n135438\t149198\t被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院系署當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點\n151241\t174257\t我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策我晚上就會談所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的\n175037\t175277\t委員,我們\n204830\t211886\t在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題\n213101\t240127\t我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。\n241047\t266695\t那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責台灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指台灣是半寶體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他\n267677\t267898\t主席\n274946\t298548\t我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊我怎麼去他沒有問你我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長你同意嗎?\n299649\t319789\t當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問\n321511\t337687\t因為我遺憾的是﹐川普不是第一次說﹐一說再說﹐如果他當選之後﹐那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了﹐絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力﹐兩位同意吧﹐\n338974\t363501\t報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人\n364616\t375266\t他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話臺灣更重要因為臺灣有半導體業\n378479\t379901\t本院內政委員會報告\n398880\t399060\t。（10月30日（。 三\n429700\t456350\t剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展\n457450\t471908\t我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動我知道院長講得非常含蓄你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話\n474892\t487300\t我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。\n489770\t510879\t。（\n511039\t520963\t二號合二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅（總共條幅高達66%之多（\n527606\t537169\t所以我今天把我們和二廠一號機和二廠二號機和三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價\n554534\t562626\t至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯\n570197\t584024\t部長院長你知道嗎事實上早在今年的三四月的時候國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前對不對了解都已經回復了但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢剛才不院長也點頭我們為什麼還要漲價呢\n589767\t616550\t因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了\n618386\t619266\t兩點答覆委員,第一個,我們剛剛講的是\n644536\t663400\t凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回降下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題\n673035\t701846\t河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們現在人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做\n702666\t724301\t現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都幫你把它做出來了。\n726232\t740088\t電價上漲（台灣的電價上漲（不是隨著國際能源價格而波動（而是隨著核電廠廚藝（而一步一步的上漲（今年兩次（今年調兩次之多（\n741289\t760398\t所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說\n770381\t796548\t臺積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠、在德國的設廠他說在他的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的為什麼呢?因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓臺積電自己發電啊就讓臺積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊河二廠已經除役了對不對河二廠經常在供電\n797868\t813074\t為什麼經常在供電?因為荷二廠的汽渦輪機組要供電,不然不夠啊!那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話,一度電多少錢?部長知道一度電多少錢嗎?現在喔,台積電的電價部分,你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少?\n820810\t823131\t臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電\n846991\t872339\t臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外乎有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的\n874702\t896837\t臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長如始不時人間煙火委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心\n899919\t921305\t雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀\n956441\t967949\t二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我請我們院長還有經濟部長跟農業部長麻煩再請左院長兩位部長備詢\n黃委員早院長早兩位部長早黃委員早院長部長先講一下剛才郭委員這幾次他都特別提到了有關於南電北送那我在這邊特別提供一個數據\n市上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,\n新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長\n昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份所以你是以被告身份?是好,那麼我就請教院長\n操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下\n以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,\n被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院系署當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點\n我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策我晚上就會談所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的\n委員,我們\n在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題\n我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。\n那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責台灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指台灣是半寶體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他\n主席\n我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊我怎麼去他沒有問你我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長你同意嗎?\n當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問\n因為我遺憾的是﹐川普不是第一次說﹐一說再說﹐如果他當選之後﹐那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了﹐絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力﹐兩位同意吧﹐\n報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人\n他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話臺灣更重要因為臺灣有半導體業\n本院內政委員會報告\n。（10月30日（。 三\n剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展\n我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動我知道院長講得非常含蓄你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話\n我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。\n。（\n二號合二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅（總共條幅高達66%之多（\n所以我今天把我們和二廠一號機和二廠二號機和三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價\n至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯\n部長院長你知道嗎事實上早在今年的三四月的時候國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前對不對了解都已經回復了但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢剛才不院長也點頭我們為什麼還要漲價呢\n因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了\n兩點答覆委員,第一個,我們剛剛講的是\n凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回降下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題\n河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們現在人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做\n現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都幫你把它做出來了。\n電價上漲（台灣的電價上漲（不是隨著國際能源價格而波動（而是隨著核電廠廚藝（而一步一步的上漲（今年兩次（今年調兩次之多（\n所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說\n臺積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠、在德國的設廠他說在他的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的為什麼呢?因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓臺積電自己發電啊就讓臺積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊河二廠已經除役了對不對河二廠經常在供電\n為什麼經常在供電?因為荷二廠的汽渦輪機組要供電,不然不夠啊!那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話,一度電多少錢?部長知道一度電多少錢嗎?現在喔,台積電的電價部分,你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少?\n臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電\n臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外乎有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的\n臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長如始不時人間煙火委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心\n雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.287 --> 00:09.345\n好謝謝主席我請我們院長還有經濟部長跟農業部長麻煩再請左院長兩位部長備詢\n\n00:17.838 --> 00:30.804\n黃委員早院長早兩位部長早黃委員早院長部長先講一下剛才郭委員這幾次他都特別提到了有關於南電北送那我在這邊特別提供一個數據\n\n00:32.185 --> 00:46.736\n市上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,\n\n00:50.058 --> 01:17.565\n新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長\n\n01:18.405 --> 01:32.762\n昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份所以你是以被告身份?是好,那麼我就請教院長\n\n01:33.973 --> 01:58.023\n操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下\n\n01:59.764 --> 02:14.104\n以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,\n\n02:15.438 --> 02:29.198\n被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院系署當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點\n\n02:31.241 --> 02:54.257\n我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策我晚上就會談所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的\n\n02:55.037 --> 02:55.277\n委員,我們\n\n03:24.830 --> 03:31.886\n在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題\n\n03:33.101 --> 04:00.127\n我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。\n\n04:01.047 --> 04:26.695\n那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責台灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指台灣是半寶體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他\n\n04:27.677 --> 04:27.898\n主席\n\n04:34.946 --> 04:58.548\n我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊我怎麼去他沒有問你我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長你同意嗎?\n\n04:59.649 --> 05:19.789\n當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問\n\n05:21.511 --> 05:37.687\n因為我遺憾的是﹐川普不是第一次說﹐一說再說﹐如果他當選之後﹐那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了﹐絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力﹐兩位同意吧﹐\n\n05:38.974 --> 06:03.501\n報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人\n\n06:04.616 --> 06:15.266\n他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話臺灣更重要因為臺灣有半導體業\n\n06:18.479 --> 06:19.901\n本院內政委員會報告\n\n06:38.880 --> 06:39.060\n。（10月30日（。三\n\n07:09.700 --> 07:36.350\n剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展\n\n07:37.450 --> 07:51.908\n我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動我知道院長講得非常含蓄你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話\n\n07:54.892 --> 08:07.300\n我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。\n\n08:31.039 --> 08:40.963\n二號合二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅（總共條幅高達66%之多（\n\n08:47.606 --> 08:57.169\n所以我今天把我們和二廠一號機和二廠二號機和三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價\n\n09:14.534 --> 09:22.626\n至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯\n\n09:30.197 --> 09:44.024\n部長院長你知道嗎事實上早在今年的三四月的時候國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前對不對了解都已經回復了但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢剛才不院長也點頭我們為什麼還要漲價呢\n\n09:49.767 --> 10:16.550\n因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了\n\n10:18.386 --> 10:19.266\n兩點答覆委員,第一個,我們剛剛講的是\n\n10:44.536 --> 11:03.400\n凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回降下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題\n\n11:13.035 --> 11:41.846\n河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們現在人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做\n\n11:42.666 --> 12:04.301\n現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都幫你把它做出來了。\n\n12:06.232 --> 12:20.088\n電價上漲（台灣的電價上漲（不是隨著國際能源價格而波動（而是隨著核電廠廚藝（而一步一步的上漲（今年兩次（今年調兩次之多（\n\n12:21.289 --> 12:40.398\n所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說\n\n12:50.381 --> 13:16.548\n臺積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠、在德國的設廠他說在他的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的為什麼呢?因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓臺積電自己發電啊就讓臺積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊河二廠已經除役了對不對河二廠經常在供電\n\n13:17.868 --> 13:33.074\n為什麼經常在供電?因為荷二廠的汽渦輪機組要供電,不然不夠啊!那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話,一度電多少錢?部長知道一度電多少錢嗎?現在喔,台積電的電價部分,你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少?\n\n13:40.810 --> 13:43.131\n臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電\n\n14:06.991 --> 14:32.339\n臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外乎有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的\n\n14:34.702 --> 14:56.837\n臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長如始不時人間煙火委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心\n\n14:59.919 --> 15:21.305\n雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀\n\n15:56.441 --> 16:07.949\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.287,"end":9.345,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們院長還有經濟部長跟農業部長麻煩再請左院長兩位部長備詢"},{"start":17.838,"end":30.804,"text":"黃委員早院長早兩位部長早黃委員早院長部長先講一下剛才郭委員這幾次他都特別提到了有關於南電北送那我在這邊特別提供一個數據"},{"start":32.185,"end":46.736,"text":"市上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,"},{"start":50.058,"end":77.565,"text":"新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長"},{"start":78.405,"end":92.762,"text":"昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份所以你是以被告身份?是好,那麼我就請教院長"},{"start":93.973,"end":118.023,"text":"操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下"},{"start":119.764,"end":134.104,"text":"以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,"},{"start":135.438,"end":149.198,"text":"被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院系署當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點"},{"start":151.241,"end":174.257,"text":"我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策我晚上就會談所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的"},{"start":175.037,"end":175.277,"text":"委員,我們"},{"start":204.83,"end":211.886,"text":"在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題"},{"start":213.101,"end":240.127,"text":"我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。"},{"start":241.047,"end":266.695,"text":"那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責台灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指台灣是半寶體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他"},{"start":267.677,"end":267.898,"text":"主席"},{"start":274.946,"end":298.548,"text":"我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊我怎麼去他沒有問你我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長你同意嗎?"},{"start":299.649,"end":319.789,"text":"當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問"},{"start":321.511,"end":337.687,"text":"因為我遺憾的是﹐川普不是第一次說﹐一說再說﹐如果他當選之後﹐那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了﹐絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力﹐兩位同意吧﹐"},{"start":338.974,"end":363.501,"text":"報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人"},{"start":364.616,"end":375.266,"text":"他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話臺灣更重要因為臺灣有半導體業"},{"start":378.479,"end":379.901,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":398.88,"end":399.06,"text":"。（10月30日（。 三"},{"start":429.7,"end":456.35,"text":"剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展"},{"start":457.45,"end":471.908,"text":"我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動我知道院長講得非常含蓄你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話"},{"start":474.892,"end":487.3,"text":"我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。"},{"start":489.77,"end":510.879,"text":"。（"},{"start":511.039,"end":520.963,"text":"二號合二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅（總共條幅高達66%之多（"},{"start":527.606,"end":537.169,"text":"所以我今天把我們和二廠一號機和二廠二號機和三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價"},{"start":554.534,"end":562.626,"text":"至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯"},{"start":570.197,"end":584.024,"text":"部長院長你知道嗎事實上早在今年的三四月的時候國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前對不對了解都已經回復了但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢剛才不院長也點頭我們為什麼還要漲價呢"},{"start":589.767,"end":616.55,"text":"因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了"},{"start":618.386,"end":619.266,"text":"兩點答覆委員,第一個,我們剛剛講的是"},{"start":644.536,"end":663.4,"text":"凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回降下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題"},{"start":673.035,"end":701.846,"text":"河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們現在人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做"},{"start":702.666,"end":724.301,"text":"現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都幫你把它做出來了。"},{"start":726.232,"end":740.088,"text":"電價上漲（台灣的電價上漲（不是隨著國際能源價格而波動（而是隨著核電廠廚藝（而一步一步的上漲（今年兩次（今年調兩次之多（"},{"start":741.289,"end":760.398,"text":"所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說"},{"start":770.381,"end":796.548,"text":"臺積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠、在德國的設廠他說在他的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的為什麼呢?因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓臺積電自己發電啊就讓臺積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊河二廠已經除役了對不對河二廠經常在供電"},{"start":797.868,"end":813.074,"text":"為什麼經常在供電?因為荷二廠的汽渦輪機組要供電,不然不夠啊!那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話,一度電多少錢?部長知道一度電多少錢嗎?現在喔,台積電的電價部分,你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少?"},{"start":820.81,"end":823.131,"text":"臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電"},{"start":846.991,"end":872.339,"text":"臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外乎有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的"},{"start":874.702,"end":896.837,"text":"臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長如始不時人間煙火委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心"},{"start":899.919,"end":921.305,"text":"雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀"},{"start":956.441,"end":967.949,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時9分）謝謝主席，我請院長，還有經濟部部長跟農業部部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、兩位部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長早，兩位部長早。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長、部長，我先講一下，郭委員這幾次都特別提到了南電北送，我在這邊特別提供一個數據，事實上六都的電力自給率是電電公會所統計計算出來的，六都裡面，沒有錯，臺北市的自給率最低，但包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%，新北是87.4%，而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%。當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據有一些疑慮，但我特別提出來這是電電公會所計算出來的，所以過去長期說南電北送、南電北送，這樣的概念事實上是有問題的。","我想請教陳部長，昨天去北檢，您是以證人身分還是以被告身分？"],["陳部長駿季：我是因為去年有人提告我，所以我用被告人身分……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你是以被告身分？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。那麼我就請教院長，關於超思弊案，之前監察院提出的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過五億元之多，現在它對於農業部也提出糾正，而站在您旁邊的農業部長，昨天以被告身分被北檢傳喚。所以院長，我想請問，以現在的狀況，超思弊案在北檢偵辦中，那麼是不是應該讓陳部長停職接受調查？"],["卓院長榮泰：三點回復，第一個，被任何一個人告都可能成為被告，被告不是自己選擇的，這個身分是因為這樣而定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以您現在仍然信任陳部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個，已經在法院繫屬當中，那就應該讓他去充分說明清楚。第三點，我們還是要回來談電……能源政策。"],["王委員鴻薇：我馬上就會談，所以你現在仍然背書陳部長！我要告訴院長的是，部長之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書，還說超思不是一人公司……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：還說超思沒有問題。但是他現在以被告身分被調查。我要特別講，那是在調查中的案子，他現在還有部長的身分，說實在的他可不可以輕易地去湮滅一些證據？所以我在這邊為什麼要問院長這個問題，既然大家高度關切，院長，如果你今天用這樣背書的一個態度的話，那麼未來你還是會被追究政治責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們在政壇這麼多年，您我都曾經被列為被告過，只要有人告，我們就是被告，這不是起訴的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：我是被你們潘孟安那個弄誹謗……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！我們都可能被列為被告。"],["王委員鴻薇：跟部長的圖利完全不一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：被告是不能選擇的身分。"],["王委員鴻薇：不要浪費我的時間，陳部長可以先請回。","另外，你們報告的第1頁就談到了台積電，那麼我想請問部長還有院長，下個禮拜就是美國大選，當然對國際的影響會非常非常地嚴重。川普現在被認為是當選機率非常高，而他已經不只一次地直接公開指責臺灣偷走了美國的晶片生意，直指臺灣是「半導體小偷」。","我先請問部長好了，您同意川普這樣的說法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：川普的說法，是他講的啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：當然是他講的。"],["郭部長智輝：那我就……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要講廢話了，你同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我當然不同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：不同意，然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎？來挺我們臺灣的半導體業嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他沒問我啊！我怎麼去……"],["王委員鴻薇：他沒有問你，我現在問你啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你現在問我，是問我同不同意他這句話嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：對！我們的半導體是小偷嗎？我們偷走了美國半導體的生意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我現在回答你的是我不同意啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：你不同意，好。","院長，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不同意，這是我們自己發展出來的一個非常領先世界的產業。"],["王委員鴻薇：臺灣有多少的、數十萬的半導體業者這樣拚命，讓臺灣有品牌，然後臺灣成為全球半導體的支柱。我非常遺憾！為什麼今天要用我現在的時間來問，因為我遺憾的是，川普不是第一次說，一說再說！如果他當選之後，成為全世界的顯學，那還得了，絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒臺灣半導體業者的工作和努力。兩位同意吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展，尤其是美國的民主大選，我相信它是一個成熟的民主國家，未來臺美關係一定是在現在的基礎上，我們努力讓它更深化、更發展。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我們有很多問題啦！真的，我現在不要浪費我的時間。","我要另外請教，美國國會議員范斯（Vance）正是川普的副總統候選人，他最近說，他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益，他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話，臺灣更重要，因為臺灣有半導體業。我們要發展半導體、我們要發展AI，而我們的台達電創辦人鄭崇華先生在這兩天接受媒體採訪，他說如果臺灣要發展AI，非用核電不可，還說對於錯誤的政策就應該認錯，然後他也講了一句過去郝柏村院長講的：朝令如果有錯，夕改何妨？所以我想先請教院長，您同不同意台達電創辦人鄭崇華先生所說的話：我們一定要用核電不可，而且如果能源政策有錯，就承認，改過就好？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我向大院提出報告，能源政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果，現在我們進行第二次能源轉型，至於未來是不是用到核電，就看核能新技術發展的進階如何，如果能夠達到安全無虞、沒有核廢料、大家有共識，我們當然願意討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是有條件，將來新的核能技術發展如果能夠達到大家有共識……"],["王委員鴻薇：那麼我們的能源政策有錯誤嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛在報告裡面提到了，第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標，第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力在推動。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我知道院長講得非常含蓄，你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話，真的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒，我們都感謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：能源政策其實就是國安問題！能源政策就是國安問題！","好，我們來看一下，因為我們非常關心的就是有關電價上漲的問題，你可以看到本席出示的這個曲線圖，在2021年7月核二廠1號機退役之前，事實上我們包含工業用電還有我們的民生用電都是沒有漲價的，即便實施了非核家園。可是等到核二廠1號機開始除役之後，我們撐不住了，所以短短幾年之內，4度調漲工業用電，而且調幅總共高達66%之多。所以我今天把核二廠1號機、核二廠2號機、核三廠1號機的除役時間跟我們電價上漲的時間做對比，非常明顯的，當核電廠逐漸除役之後，台電的發電成本就節節升高，使得我們挺不住而必須調高電價。可是你們的報告又用了一個錯誤的訊息，其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長，部長也還沒有當部長的時候，我就說，我們調整電價說是因為國際能源價格上漲，錯！部長、院長，你們知道嗎？事實上早在今年三、四月的時候，國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：都已經回復了！但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢？","剛才院長也點頭，我們為什麼還要漲價呢？因為台電的發電成本節節上升。好，我們明年5月份立刻又要面臨核三廠2號機組除役，所以我想請問院長，剛才也講了，鄭崇華先生說，其實如果我們認為能源政策錯誤，把它改過就好了！包含童子賢先生講的核綠可以共生。關於核綠可以共生，你不要等到未來的核電生出來，現在的核電就可以共生。","所以我再非常沉痛地來問一下院長：核三廠全面除役是一條不能回頭的路嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，兩點答復委員，第一個，我們剛剛講的是台電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲，我們知道到2023年它是下來了，我們這裡是2021年，我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料，2021年之後連續兩年上漲超過……"],["王委員鴻薇：這都已經回降下來了，你們還在漲什麼呢？都已經回降下來，撐都撐過去了，你們還在漲什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：這兩年它有虧損啊！我們現在在調整它的財務狀況，那兩年它是有虧損的，請委員能夠理解。第二個，你說到核三廠的問題，核三廠今天要延役，它必須5年前就啟動這樣延役的程序，現在沒有啟動，明年的……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們修法改規定就好啦！核四廠已經通通都蓋好了，最後就沒有讓它商轉了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員你是要我們改不用5年前……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎？你們現在行政權無限大啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你的意思是我們改……"],["王委員鴻薇：人家以前說立法、國會除了不能生孩子之外，什麼都可以做，現在行政部門行政權力無限大，除了不能生孩子，什麼都可以做啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。委員的意思是我們要把5年拿掉，還是往後延5年？"],["王委員鴻薇：我只問你核三廠是不是勢必要除役？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果照現在的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才講這個電價，為什麼？我擔心的是，按照這個趨勢，我都幫你把它做出來了，臺灣的電價上漲不是隨著國際能源價格而波動，而是隨著核電廠除役而一步一步的上漲……"],["卓院長榮泰：它還有其他因素。"],["王委員鴻薇：今年兩次，今年調兩次之多！所以我想請問一下，我擔心明年一除役，又要大幅的上漲啊，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的電價相比其他的國家，我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的韓國跟日本相比，韓國也在上個月又漲了，工業電價又漲了9.6%，我們都是比他低的。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你有沒有聽台積電說？"],["郭部長智輝：韓國他也用核電啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：台積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠，在德國也設廠嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：台積電說在它各個廠區，用電成本最高的就是臺灣，台積電說的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，最高的部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼呢？因為台電供電不足，動不動就讓台積電自己發電啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：而且我們現在很神奇的，核二廠已經除役了，對不對？核二廠經常在供電，為什麼經常在供電？因為核二廠的氣渦輪機組要供電，不然不夠啊！那麼你知道氣渦輪機組供電，一度電多少錢？部長知道一度電多少錢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在台積電……"],["王委員鴻薇：回答我啊，你都不知道！"],["郭部長智輝：台積電的電價部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：不管台積電喔！"],["郭部長智輝：你可不可以去問它說德國的電價是多少？這不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：這是台積電說的啊，它用電的成本，臺灣最高啊！"],["郭部長智輝：它是現在在運作的，因為它在美國用的是水力發電，所以水力發電當然是比較便宜，條件不一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我今天還沒時間問你……"],["郭部長智輝：它在日本也是用……"],["王委員鴻薇：台積電現在都到新加坡去徵才了，現在大家講的日積電、美積電，以後再講新積電，台積電現在當然還臺灣，可是慢慢的，日積電、美積電、新積電，全部通通都到海外去了，在海外徵才、在海外擴廠，部長，你覺得這樣很好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為這個評估的因素不會只有一個這麼小的變動因素……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們第1頁就在講台積電，在講政策的時候……"],["郭部長智輝：台積電的電只占它的成本非常的低，如果電很高，台積電不可能它的營業利益可以高達58%，剛剛報告的，它的業績就有58%，賺的利益喔！"],["王委員鴻薇：你知道嗎？台積電說我們只要一度電上漲，就侵蝕它多少成本嗎？唉唷！我們一個部長如此不食人間煙火啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心，也舉雙手來歡迎他們，我們也知道台積電會繼續在臺灣做更多的建設，政府會從各方面來協助、來幫忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剩最後一點時間。院長，我在這邊真的很沉痛的說，我們討論這麼多的能源政策，我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤？我們現在有三大的罪狀、三大問題，第一，剛才講電價必須上漲；第二，要講缺電，事實上大家都覺得……連最近天下才作成的一個民調，七成民眾認為是缺電的；另外一個，就是納稅人不停的要撥補，台電從一家好的公司變成一個無底洞，讓我們納稅人不停的撥補。三大罪狀！所以兩位今天站在這邊……"],["主席：謝謝……"],["王委員鴻薇：站在歷史的關鍵上，不要成為罪人，非常重要，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，希望委員做出正確的結論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及經濟部長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是本院盧縣一委員邀請來自政治大學原住民資源中心的所有同學，熱烈歡迎大家。","再接下來我們請登記第4號張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}