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931.315, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 931.315, \"end\": 931.335, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,355 --> 00:00:12,338\n謝謝主席,左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。\n\n2\n00:00:24,918 --> 00:00:43,327\n這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一\n\n3\n00:00:45,407 --> 00:01:09,674\n發電、穩定供電一定是必要的院長應該不會反對這個事。（二任何的政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久我想院長應該不會反對這個事。（三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的任何一個政策不管是行程的階段執行的階段檢討的階段都應該廣納民意讓更多人來參與來問責我想這是重要的最後這個所有的政策我們\n\n4\n00:01:10,394 --> 00:01:39,455\n跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的能源政策如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合\n\n5\n00:01:40,055 --> 00:02:06,598\n為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台四次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風\n\n6\n00:02:07,759 --> 00:02:29,027\n在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年九二一大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年一到六月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災\n\n7\n00:02:30,047 --> 00:02:46,041\n這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名\n\n8\n00:02:47,422 --> 00:03:15,499\n過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更\n\n9\n00:03:16,260 --> 00:03:36,038\n更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2\n\n10\n00:03:38,055 --> 00:03:59,123\n中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討\n\n11\n00:04:00,263 --> 00:04:14,649\n過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,\n\n12\n00:04:16,010 --> 00:04:38,019\n要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題\n\n13\n00:04:39,999 --> 00:04:59,504\n今天的主題是電價的政策,所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書,台電在2017年其實都還有營餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的\n\n14\n00:05:01,145 --> 00:05:17,204\n這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚啦你當然會講說這是這幾年啦烏鴉戰爭啦有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛喔這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講\n\n15\n00:05:18,966 --> 00:05:44,535\n這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高\n\n16\n00:05:48,004 --> 00:06:12,744\n報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降\n\n17\n00:06:16,207 --> 00:06:16,307\n主席\n\n18\n00:06:34,201 --> 00:06:34,481\n臺電收入支出盈虧\n\n19\n00:06:55,072 --> 00:06:55,392\n這個我要補充一下子\n\n20\n00:07:17,971 --> 00:07:24,675\n律電的佔比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由\n\n21\n00:07:36,983 --> 00:07:46,582\n律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對\n\n22\n00:07:48,256 --> 00:08:09,307\n電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電\n\n23\n00:08:12,769 --> 00:08:36,746\n兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務設算它的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對\n\n24\n00:08:38,467 --> 00:08:55,773\n那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來我們要改善台電的財務結構這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期到2028年我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算今年是處理完我們編明年的預算審議完之後我們再編明年的預算\n\n25\n00:08:56,993 --> 00:09:19,244\n儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊\n\n26\n00:09:21,707 --> 00:09:35,407\n臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來\n\n27\n00:09:36,508 --> 00:10:00,389\n讓他財務人健全我現在在問的就是你講的是問題的核心沒有錯待會我們會談執行面嘛但問題是你現在政府有沒有規劃比如說一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫未來有一個財務設算的模型每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度這個這樣子的計畫有沒有出來有沒有規劃有沒有時間表這個我們都希望部長能夠督促台電做出來用企業的精神來做用企業的精神來做報告部長謝謝你這樣的這個指教\n\n28\n00:10:03,872 --> 00:10:30,121\n我來以後啊發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是相差很多對不對好今天因為時間有限我們還要聊點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛講第一能源政策總檢討第二台電四年期的財務規劃要出來要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準你要如何說服大家謝謝接受人民的納稅錢來處理對不對好\n\n29\n00:10:32,362 --> 00:10:52,642\n你們都答應了齁那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來這樣子的一個設算的模型我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒\n\n30\n00:10:56,225 --> 00:11:13,955\n撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億\n\n31\n00:11:16,057 --> 00:11:32,016\n換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿\n\n32\n00:11:32,757 --> 00:12:01,793\n那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了要計預計劃五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?\n\n33\n00:12:03,388 --> 00:12:23,761\n我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年這個本來是虧損1500億左右撥了1000之後是還虧500億所以你要新增預算再補償這500億你才會是盈餘到了明年一樣是虧1000億左右\n\n34\n00:12:32,626 --> 00:12:59,799\n同樣是虧500億左右所以你又要撥1000億我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎\n\n35\n00:13:00,984 --> 00:13:24,969\n就是剛剛跟委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個\n\n36\n00:13:26,509 --> 00:13:51,781\n過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦\n\n37\n00:13:52,681 --> 00:14:06,753\n財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。\n\n38\n00:14:14,073 --> 00:14:36,508\n但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助他具有競爭力但是他是必要的成本所以我們讓他可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話他相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間震撼了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略\n\n39\n00:14:41,391 --> 00:14:41,972\n部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是\n\n40\n00:14:47,787 --> 00:15:10,141\n這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討\n\n41\n00:15:11,602 --> 00:15:31,335\n現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷、委員子許、謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9355\t12338\t謝謝主席,左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。\n24918\t43327\t這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一\n45407\t69674\t發電、穩定供電一定是必要的院長應該不會反對這個事。（二任何的政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久我想院長應該不會反對這個事。（三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的任何一個政策不管是行程的階段執行的階段檢討的階段都應該廣納民意讓更多人來參與來問責我想這是重要的最後這個所有的政策我們\n70394\t99455\t跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的能源政策如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合\n100055\t126598\t為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台四次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風\n127759\t149027\t在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年九二一大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年一到六月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災\n150047\t166041\t這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名\n167422\t195499\t過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更\n196260\t216038\t更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2\n218055\t239123\t中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討\n240263\t254649\t過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,\n256010\t278019\t要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題\n279999\t299504\t今天的主題是電價的政策,所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書,台電在2017年其實都還有營餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的\n301145\t317204\t這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚啦你當然會講說這是這幾年啦烏鴉戰爭啦有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛喔這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講\n318966\t344535\t這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高\n348004\t372744\t報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降\n376207\t376307\t主席\n394201\t394481\t臺電收入支出盈虧\n415072\t415392\t這個我要補充一下子\n437971\t444675\t律電的佔比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由\n456983\t466582\t律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對\n468256\t489307\t電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電\n492769\t516746\t兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務設算它的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對\n518467\t535773\t那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來我們要改善台電的財務結構這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期到2028年我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算今年是處理完我們編明年的預算審議完之後我們再編明年的預算\n536993\t559244\t儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊\n561707\t575407\t臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來\n576508\t600389\t讓他財務人健全我現在在問的就是你講的是問題的核心沒有錯待會我們會談執行面嘛但問題是你現在政府有沒有規劃比如說一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫未來有一個財務設算的模型每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度這個這樣子的計畫有沒有出來有沒有規劃有沒有時間表這個我們都希望部長能夠督促台電做出來用企業的精神來做用企業的精神來做報告部長謝謝你這樣的這個指教\n603872\t630121\t我來以後啊發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是相差很多對不對好今天因為時間有限我們還要聊點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛講第一能源政策總檢討第二台電四年期的財務規劃要出來要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準你要如何說服大家謝謝接受人民的納稅錢來處理對不對好\n632362\t652642\t你們都答應了齁那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來這樣子的一個設算的模型我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒\n656225\t673955\t撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億\n676057\t692016\t換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿\n692757\t721793\t那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了要計預計劃五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?\n723388\t743761\t我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年這個本來是虧損1500億左右撥了1000之後是還虧500億所以你要新增預算再補償這500億你才會是盈餘到了明年一樣是虧1000億左右\n752626\t779799\t同樣是虧500億左右所以你又要撥1000億我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎\n780984\t804969\t就是剛剛跟委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個\n806509\t831781\t過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦\n832681\t846753\t財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。\n854073\t876508\t但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助他具有競爭力但是他是必要的成本所以我們讓他可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話他相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間震撼了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略\n881391\t881972\t部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是\n887787\t910141\t這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討\n911602\t931335\t現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷、委員子許、謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢\n","txt":"謝謝主席,左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。\n這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一\n發電、穩定供電一定是必要的院長應該不會反對這個事。（二任何的政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久我想院長應該不會反對這個事。（三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的任何一個政策不管是行程的階段執行的階段檢討的階段都應該廣納民意讓更多人來參與來問責我想這是重要的最後這個所有的政策我們\n跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的能源政策如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合\n為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台四次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風\n在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年九二一大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年一到六月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災\n這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名\n過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更\n更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2\n中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討\n過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,\n要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題\n今天的主題是電價的政策,所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書,台電在2017年其實都還有營餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的\n這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚啦你當然會講說這是這幾年啦烏鴉戰爭啦有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛喔這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講\n這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高\n報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降\n主席\n臺電收入支出盈虧\n這個我要補充一下子\n律電的佔比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由\n律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對\n電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電\n兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務設算它的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對\n那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來我們要改善台電的財務結構這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期到2028年我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算今年是處理完我們編明年的預算審議完之後我們再編明年的預算\n儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊\n臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來\n讓他財務人健全我現在在問的就是你講的是問題的核心沒有錯待會我們會談執行面嘛但問題是你現在政府有沒有規劃比如說一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫未來有一個財務設算的模型每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度這個這樣子的計畫有沒有出來有沒有規劃有沒有時間表這個我們都希望部長能夠督促台電做出來用企業的精神來做用企業的精神來做報告部長謝謝你這樣的這個指教\n我來以後啊發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是相差很多對不對好今天因為時間有限我們還要聊點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛講第一能源政策總檢討第二台電四年期的財務規劃要出來要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準你要如何說服大家謝謝接受人民的納稅錢來處理對不對好\n你們都答應了齁那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來這樣子的一個設算的模型我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒\n撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億\n換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿\n那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了要計預計劃五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?\n我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年這個本來是虧損1500億左右撥了1000之後是還虧500億所以你要新增預算再補償這500億你才會是盈餘到了明年一樣是虧1000億左右\n同樣是虧500億左右所以你又要撥1000億我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎\n就是剛剛跟委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個\n過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦\n財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。\n但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助他具有競爭力但是他是必要的成本所以我們讓他可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話他相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間震撼了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略\n部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是\n這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討\n現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷、委員子許、謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.355 --> 00:12.338\n謝謝主席,左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。\n\n00:24.918 --> 00:43.327\n這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一\n\n00:45.407 --> 01:09.674\n發電、穩定供電一定是必要的院長應該不會反對這個事。（二任何的政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久我想院長應該不會反對這個事。（三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的任何一個政策不管是行程的階段執行的階段檢討的階段都應該廣納民意讓更多人來參與來問責我想這是重要的最後這個所有的政策我們\n\n01:10.394 --> 01:39.455\n跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的能源政策如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合\n\n01:40.055 --> 02:06.598\n為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台四次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風\n\n02:07.759 --> 02:29.027\n在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年九二一大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年一到六月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災\n\n02:30.047 --> 02:46.041\n這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名\n\n02:47.422 --> 03:15.499\n過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更\n\n03:16.260 --> 03:36.038\n更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2\n\n03:38.055 --> 03:59.123\n中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討\n\n04:00.263 --> 04:14.649\n過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,\n\n04:16.010 --> 04:38.019\n要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題\n\n04:39.999 --> 04:59.504\n今天的主題是電價的政策,所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書,台電在2017年其實都還有營餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的\n\n05:01.145 --> 05:17.204\n這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚啦你當然會講說這是這幾年啦烏鴉戰爭啦有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛喔這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講\n\n05:18.966 --> 05:44.535\n這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高\n\n05:48.004 --> 06:12.744\n報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降\n\n06:16.207 --> 06:16.307\n主席\n\n06:34.201 --> 06:34.481\n臺電收入支出盈虧\n\n06:55.072 --> 06:55.392\n這個我要補充一下子\n\n07:17.971 --> 07:24.675\n律電的佔比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由\n\n07:36.983 --> 07:46.582\n律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對\n\n07:48.256 --> 08:09.307\n電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電\n\n08:12.769 --> 08:36.746\n兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務設算它的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對\n\n08:38.467 --> 08:55.773\n那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來我們要改善台電的財務結構這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期到2028年我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算今年是處理完我們編明年的預算審議完之後我們再編明年的預算\n\n08:56.993 --> 09:19.244\n儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊\n\n09:21.707 --> 09:35.407\n臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來\n\n09:36.508 --> 10:00.389\n讓他財務人健全我現在在問的就是你講的是問題的核心沒有錯待會我們會談執行面嘛但問題是你現在政府有沒有規劃比如說一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫未來有一個財務設算的模型每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度這個這樣子的計畫有沒有出來有沒有規劃有沒有時間表這個我們都希望部長能夠督促台電做出來用企業的精神來做用企業的精神來做報告部長謝謝你這樣的這個指教\n\n10:03.872 --> 10:30.121\n我來以後啊發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是相差很多對不對好今天因為時間有限我們還要聊點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛講第一能源政策總檢討第二台電四年期的財務規劃要出來要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準你要如何說服大家謝謝接受人民的納稅錢來處理對不對好\n\n10:32.362 --> 10:52.642\n你們都答應了齁那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來這樣子的一個設算的模型我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒\n\n10:56.225 --> 11:13.955\n撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億\n\n11:16.057 --> 11:32.016\n換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿\n\n11:32.757 --> 12:01.793\n那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了要計預計劃五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?\n\n12:03.388 --> 12:23.761\n我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年這個本來是虧損1500億左右撥了1000之後是還虧500億所以你要新增預算再補償這500億你才會是盈餘到了明年一樣是虧1000億左右\n\n12:32.626 --> 12:59.799\n同樣是虧500億左右所以你又要撥1000億我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎\n\n13:00.984 --> 13:24.969\n就是剛剛跟委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個\n\n13:26.509 --> 13:51.781\n過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦\n\n13:52.681 --> 14:06.753\n財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。\n\n14:14.073 --> 14:36.508\n但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助他具有競爭力但是他是必要的成本所以我們讓他可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話他相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間震撼了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略\n\n14:41.391 --> 14:41.972\n部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是\n\n14:47.787 --> 15:10.141\n這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討\n\n15:11.602 --> 15:31.335\n現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷、委員子許、謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.355,"end":12.338,"text":"謝謝主席,左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。"},{"start":24.918,"end":43.327,"text":"這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一"},{"start":45.407,"end":69.674,"text":"發電、穩定供電一定是必要的院長應該不會反對這個事。（二任何的政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久我想院長應該不會反對這個事。（三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的任何一個政策不管是行程的階段執行的階段檢討的階段都應該廣納民意讓更多人來參與來問責我想這是重要的最後這個所有的政策我們"},{"start":70.394,"end":99.455,"text":"跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的能源政策如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合"},{"start":100.055,"end":126.598,"text":"為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台四次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風"},{"start":127.759,"end":149.027,"text":"在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年九二一大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年一到六月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災"},{"start":150.047,"end":166.041,"text":"這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名"},{"start":167.422,"end":195.499,"text":"過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更"},{"start":196.26,"end":216.038,"text":"更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2"},{"start":218.055,"end":239.123,"text":"中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討"},{"start":240.263,"end":254.649,"text":"過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,"},{"start":256.01,"end":278.019,"text":"要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題"},{"start":279.999,"end":299.504,"text":"今天的主題是電價的政策,所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書,台電在2017年其實都還有營餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的"},{"start":301.145,"end":317.204,"text":"這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚啦你當然會講說這是這幾年啦烏鴉戰爭啦有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛喔這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講"},{"start":318.966,"end":344.535,"text":"這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高"},{"start":348.004,"end":372.744,"text":"報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降"},{"start":376.207,"end":376.307,"text":"主席"},{"start":394.201,"end":394.481,"text":"臺電收入支出盈虧"},{"start":415.072,"end":415.392,"text":"這個我要補充一下子"},{"start":437.971,"end":444.675,"text":"律電的佔比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由"},{"start":456.983,"end":466.582,"text":"律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對"},{"start":468.256,"end":489.307,"text":"電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電"},{"start":492.769,"end":516.746,"text":"兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務設算它的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對"},{"start":518.467,"end":535.773,"text":"那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來我們要改善台電的財務結構這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期到2028年我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算今年是處理完我們編明年的預算審議完之後我們再編明年的預算"},{"start":536.993,"end":559.244,"text":"儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊"},{"start":561.707,"end":575.407,"text":"臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來"},{"start":576.508,"end":600.389,"text":"讓他財務人健全我現在在問的就是你講的是問題的核心沒有錯待會我們會談執行面嘛但問題是你現在政府有沒有規劃比如說一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫未來有一個財務設算的模型每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度這個這樣子的計畫有沒有出來有沒有規劃有沒有時間表這個我們都希望部長能夠督促台電做出來用企業的精神來做用企業的精神來做報告部長謝謝你這樣的這個指教"},{"start":603.872,"end":630.121,"text":"我來以後啊發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是相差很多對不對好今天因為時間有限我們還要聊點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛講第一能源政策總檢討第二台電四年期的財務規劃要出來要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準你要如何說服大家謝謝接受人民的納稅錢來處理對不對好"},{"start":632.362,"end":652.642,"text":"你們都答應了齁那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來這樣子的一個設算的模型我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒"},{"start":656.225,"end":673.955,"text":"撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億"},{"start":676.057,"end":692.016,"text":"換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿"},{"start":692.757,"end":721.793,"text":"那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了要計預計劃五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?"},{"start":723.388,"end":743.761,"text":"我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年這個本來是虧損1500億左右撥了1000之後是還虧500億所以你要新增預算再補償這500億你才會是盈餘到了明年一樣是虧1000億左右"},{"start":752.626,"end":779.799,"text":"同樣是虧500億左右所以你又要撥1000億我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎"},{"start":780.984,"end":804.969,"text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個"},{"start":806.509,"end":831.781,"text":"過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦"},{"start":832.681,"end":846.753,"text":"財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。"},{"start":854.073,"end":876.508,"text":"但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助他具有競爭力但是他是必要的成本所以我們讓他可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話他相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間震撼了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略"},{"start":881.391,"end":881.972,"text":"部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是"},{"start":887.787,"end":910.141,"text":"這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討"},{"start":911.602,"end":931.335,"text":"現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷、委員子許、謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":447,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時9分）謝謝主席，卓院長有請。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長早安。一個好的政策通常應該要具備一些要件，今天我們討論的是能源政策跟電價政策，我想我們要先從要件開始今天的詢答，本席才疏學淺，提出四項要件，我們跟院長做一下討論。","本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件，第一，既然是發電嘛！穩定的供電一定是必要的，院長應該不會反對這個事；第二，任何的政策，不管是能源或其他，都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久，我想院長應該也不會反對這個事；第三，從民主的角度，問責的機制是很重要的，任何一個政策，不管是形成的階段、執行的階段、檢討的階段，都應該廣納民意，讓更多人來參與、來問責，我想這是重要的；最後，所有的政策，我們跟全世界畢竟不能脫鈎，所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要。這四項要件，院長是否同意，還是你要補充？一個好的能源政策……"],["卓院長榮泰：基本的要件，如果能夠把這個都很合理地做規劃，那就是看執行的問題了。"],["牛委員煦庭：剩下執行的問題對不對？好，上一次總質詢的時候，我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論，今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長做對話。我很遺憾的是，過去這一段時間，民進黨政府的能源政策，我認為這四項要件一項都不符合，為什麼這樣說呢？我們一項一項來講，第一，穩定的供電，我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題，我跟你談穩不穩的問題，2017年815大停電衝擊全臺；2021年513、517大停電衝擊全臺；到了2022年3月3號大停電衝擊全臺，四次超過百萬戶受影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內。我要提醒院長的是，再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風，再往前追溯，再上一次有這麼大規模的停電是1999年921大地震，這就是供電不穩。那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話，小規模也是，2024年1到6月各大小型跳電的次數3,553件，比去年同期多了兩成，我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災，這些都代表供電不穩定，這第一個要件沒有達標。","第二，有關合理的財務規劃，待會我們還會進行深入討論，但是高昂的躉購價格、燃料費用、債務問題長年未解，我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名，過去誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上，台電很倒楣，但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了，台電的收支狀況加上它長期累積的負債，其實證明了能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間。","第三，我們談問責的機制，當初的綠能政策在成形的過程中，雖然是多數政府，但其實是少數民意，產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話，所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來；更直接的反應是2018年的公民投票，其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策，但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整，所以問責的部分也沒有及格。","最後跟國際趨勢接軌，大家都講減碳、要用乾淨能源，當然很多人講，如果是半夜，當然綠能發不出來，變98比2，中午的時候可能有兩成，可是晚上的時候剩2%，整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%，九火一綠，這真的能夠面對我們各產業節能減碳的需求嗎？","所以就本席的了解，你這四項政策指標，目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標，我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討。過去用氣五煤三綠二能源配比作為指導綱領，不但沒有辦法如期達標，現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致，我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題，要提出能源政策的總檢討。馬上我們要進入預算的審議，兩千億的支出，不管是追加或者是今年的，如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討，沒有辦法確保未來政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求，我想不只是本席，在野黨也是絕對不會同意的。","院長，我們開頭就這樣，我們要進入今天的主題。今天的主題是電價的政策，所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算。根據台電的預算書，台電在2017年其實都還有盈餘，我們先不論台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還，但是你看這幾年的支出壓力其實是非常大的，支出暴增的原因大家都很清楚，你當然會講說這是這幾年烏俄戰爭，有原物料暴漲的問題，其實如實地呈現在圖表，你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的，但剛剛我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員這個議題的時候也講，這幾年原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛！對不對？你看國際的數字，天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭，這當然是舉例，但國際各地的趨勢是一致的，也就是從2023年的峰值已經走下來了。但是回到前面這一張，我們不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出，顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑，對吧？院長，這代表了什麼意思呢？為什麼支出還是這麼高？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，從這個表我們可以觀察到，就是購電的成本增加。"],["牛委員煦庭：購電的成本大幅上升，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電。"],["牛委員煦庭：綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：都是在綠電。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的成本本來就是比較高的。"],["牛委員煦庭：綠電的成本比較高對不對？所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能成本有辦法再節省嗎？按照現行的能源政策，它能夠再減少嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是在考慮怎麼樣讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降，就是過去從這個圖表裡面我們可以看得清楚，跟綠電的成本相差很多，但是綠電又是RE100必要的一個要件，所以使用綠電，我們未來的售電會把綠電族群切出來，就是他使用綠電，買綠電的價格，這樣子的話會幫助我們用灰電的這些客戶，也就是說在臺灣，他在使用臺灣銷售的這些客人其實不會因為這樣子而去成長……"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛才講到賣綠電，這我們待會會詳細來做討論。院長，你看一下這幾年台電收入支出的盈虧，其實很清楚啦！就是它不只是有兩兆多的累積負債在那個地方，這幾年連收支平衡都沒有辦法達標，這當然是一個大的問題，這問題總要解決，國際原物料的價格已經回穩，天然氣、煤炭的發電成本略有下降，但台電的財政負擔沒有得到解決，這是因為剛剛部長講了大實話，綠電的占比將持續升高，而政府……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我要補充一下，虧損的部分其實是我們補貼凍漲的部分、民生的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，等一下會細算。但我講的是總體台電的財政狀況，綠電的占比持續上升，我們現在談成本的問題，政府持續地要負擔躉購政策，所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由綠電購買的成本貼補上去了，所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的，我希望這件事情，我講的數據是不會騙人的，這對大家來講都是公平的，院長，這確實是我們要面對的問題，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭部長智輝：電價的部分，跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：我問院長，院長，這是不是我們要面對的？"],["郭部長智輝：對不起！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，綠電的初期當然成本是很高的，我們期待比較成熟、開發之後，它的電價能夠趨於比較穩定，這是第一個部分。其他就是關於成本的支出，現在經濟部一直要求台電能夠在嚴謹的管控底下，所以他說兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉……"],["牛委員煦庭：兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉，講得真好，這就是本席要的，未來我們在審預算非常重要的標準，我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候，部長，你是崇越集團出身，對不對？你當初在做董事長的時候，你有沒有做五年展望或十年展望，也就是說我的集團在未來五年，我預計要拓展哪些東西，我的財務設算模型是什麼，應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問台電應不應該比照辦理？如果剛剛院長已經講出來要改善台電的財務結構，這件事該不該做？我不要講5年，就以這個任期到2028年，現在因為政府機關我們在審預算，今年的事處理完編明年預算，審議完之後，再編明年預算。儘管政策的規劃，5年、10年開支票開得很快，但財務的規劃每次都逐年做，所以就造成很大的落差，今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃，那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務藍圖出來？院長，做得出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點、比例上高一點，因為過去台電經過三年幾乎30%的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中，而且民生電價也長期偏低，政府就用補貼的方式，那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本，補貼的政策能夠持續的減緩下來，讓它財務能健全……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在在問的就是，你講的是問題的核心沒有錯，待會我們會談執行面，但問題是現在政府有沒有規劃？比如說，一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫，未來有一個財務設算的模型，每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度，這樣子的計畫有沒有出來？有沒有規劃？有沒有時間表？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們都冀望部長能夠督促台電做出來，用企業的精神來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：來，部長，用企業的精神來做。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，謝謝你這樣的指教，我來以後發現公務的預算跟在民間的作法是完全不一樣。那……"],["牛委員煦庭：相差很多，對不對？好，今天因為時間有限，我們還要留點時間談執行的問題，所以本席的要求，我剛剛講，第一，能源政策總檢討；第二，台電四年期的財務規劃要出來，要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情，沒有任何討論基準……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要如何說服大家接受用人民的納稅錢來處理，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝，這個我們可以做得到。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你們都答應了，我們希望接下來可以看到，這樣子的設算模型什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去要跟台電溝通一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我給你時間，你會後來做專案的回復，我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼我們今天要特別去談一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提，就是因為撥補不是只有這2,000億而已，112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1,500億，然後疫後特別預算又偷偷過了500億，到了今年，其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1,000億，然後現在提進來還沒審查的叫新增預算1,000億，在簡報中間的左邊，還有未來，明年還要再撥補1,000億，換言之是3年5,000億的支出，通通是納稅錢、通通是民脂民膏啊！我為什麼說要檢討、要設算，因為你如果沒有這個東西，我實在沒辦法接受這件事。院長，你曾經講，禁伐補償20億的經費，你講說我們要下不為例，你講得很大聲，那這個3年5,000億，我們該怎麼算呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們回顧起來，包括疫後特別預算跟各年的撥補，其中一部分當然是來補貼民生用電不足、發電成本的補貼政策，另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計畫，預計花5,600億……"],["牛委員煦庭：台電要有支出嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個補在裡面，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那3年5,000億的部分，什麼時候我可以聽到院長說下不為例？我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們期待、期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣一個財務報告之後，裡面明白地告訴政府也告訴人民，台電用什麼方式達到財務的平衡。"],["牛委員煦庭：在成本節節上升的情況下，你看2024年本來是虧損1,500億左右，撥了1,000億之後還是虧500億，所以你要新增預算，再補上這500億才會是盈餘，到了明年一樣是虧500億左右，所以你又要撥1,000億，我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了，因為我們剛剛都談到成本問題的挑戰很大，未來又沒有預估標準，我擔心這是無限上綱，本席不接受，因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢，不管是反映在電價也好，或反映在稅收也好，這都是人民的財務負擔，所以這件事情不能沒完沒了，這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情，但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話？院長，你心裡有一個規劃嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，剛剛跟委員報告，誠如委員所要求的，我請台電提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃，裡面應該告訴我們，政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變，以及它什麼時候達到財務的平衡。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。現行能源政策的最大問題，我們談執行面的問題，就是你現在的能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境，三難困境的意思是說這三件事情你只能選兩個，過去一段時間，我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理，所以民生電價是凍漲的狀態，對不對？我們還是希望維持產業競爭力，所以最後透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式，把壞帳通通掛在台電，造成政府財務規劃的負擔，你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個？這段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式，你必然要做出調整，現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理，你財政就一定要顧，現在好了，財政一定要顧，你的電價就一定要做調整啊，要反映成本，對不對？請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上是這樣，如果是照顧國人，當然就是產業要負擔，做出口的產業要負擔。"],["牛委員煦庭：做出口的產業要負擔？"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為它的成就是來服務外國人嘛，但我們要照顧國人，這是第一要件。第二個，我們幫助產業具有競爭力，但是這是它必要的成本，所以我們讓它的成本比鄰近的國家更低的話，它相對地就有競爭力，我想這是基本的原則。"],["牛委員煦庭：我提醒院長，今天時間真的不多，但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實，產業負擔，院長，未來台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔，是嗎？這是不是我們接下來的策略？"],["卓院長榮泰：產業讓它合理的負擔啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：像這次就是狀況沒有那麼好的產業，我們是凍漲或半漲而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望不要逃避問題，但是本席也提一個解方，誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢？你的能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧地調整跟改變，也許你可以三方兼顧啊，我講的三難困境，是在你現行的概念下，你把自己綁死了嘛，氣五煤三綠二，對不對？很難做，花很多錢，然後還造成這樣的困境，應該要總檢討啦！現在天下雜誌的民意已經出來了，其實民意已經改變了，我們期待政府乘著這樣的趨勢，大膽做調整，擺脫三難困境，解決台電的財務困境，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們跟委員繼續來請教，我們共同來解決這個困難。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第7號邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}