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{\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 679.169, \"end\": 679.329, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 679.329, \"end\": 679.609, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 679.609, \"end\": 680.189, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 680.189, \"end\": 680.53, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"股\", \"start\": 680.53, \"end\": 680.65, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 680.65, \"end\": 680.75, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 680.75, \"end\": 680.77, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 683.114, \"end\": 683.134, \"text\": \"臺灣銀行\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 683.114, \"end\": 683.134, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 697.121, \"end\": 718.0, \"text\": \"臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, 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00:00:23,193\n謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。\n\n2\n00:00:30,216 --> 00:00:37,149\n蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個\n\n3\n00:00:39,258 --> 00:01:06,407\n就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本\n\n4\n00:01:06,837 --> 00:01:24,813\n也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?現在就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是\n\n5\n00:01:26,506 --> 00:01:39,535\n現在的現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前\n\n6\n00:01:40,615 --> 00:01:44,779\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n7\n00:02:03,958 --> 00:02:07,000\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。三\n\n8\n00:02:26,030 --> 00:02:40,292\n在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說看這個時候要買多少\n\n9\n00:02:42,523 --> 00:02:55,721\n是的跟委員報告2021年之後臺電的這個燃料的成本上漲了大概兩倍大概6000億的支出所以造成當時的財務造成很大的一個困難那2023年之後\n\n10\n00:02:57,523 --> 00:03:17,181\n因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳律委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況\n\n11\n00:03:23,665 --> 00:03:43,298\n在目前情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的美所以可能還是在高價的美\n\n12\n00:03:43,578 --> 00:03:43,598\n韓國瑜議員\n\n13\n00:04:12,554 --> 00:04:32,658\n因為我們對於這個煤價這狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多\n\n14\n00:04:42,496 --> 00:05:09,554\n所以理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不愛燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量要漸漸下去降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要\n\n15\n00:05:10,515 --> 00:05:10,735\n主席\n\n16\n00:05:33,053 --> 00:05:53,839\n這個我們在計畫上面是有這就是要有你們有一個因應措施嘛對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊\n\n17\n00:05:54,859 --> 00:06:20,595\n對,我們在買這個材料就是有幾個方式啦就是說一個是我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊就載來我們的桶槽放,這是最方便啦另外一種是我們這個供應方在他那個地方放在那裡所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程\n\n18\n00:06:22,476 --> 00:06:49,816\n這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在所以這個部分我們會參考我這個覺得真的有必要要說好第二個我要問因為台電事實上外面都給他一個名字這個名字聽起來我覺得還蠻好聽的就是說物價消波快\n\n19\n00:06:50,794 --> 00:06:54,956\n臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在\n\n20\n00:07:12,785 --> 00:07:33,628\n一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候﹐大概台電吸收了兩千八百億﹐在二零二三年的時候﹐吸收了兩千零八十六億﹐在二零二四年﹐吸收了一五五二億﹐這是這段時間﹐台電為了穩定物價﹐以及為了產業的發展﹐台電相對付出﹐那後來﹐我們知道說在今年年初的時候﹐\n\n21\n00:07:34,369 --> 00:07:53,484\n我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編築這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助\n\n22\n00:07:55,225 --> 00:08:08,082\n所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多\n\n23\n00:08:09,185 --> 00:08:35,768\n普天的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這一次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電\n\n24\n00:08:36,889 --> 00:08:50,358\n大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線\n\n25\n00:08:52,279 --> 00:08:53,579\n部長,明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:21,548 --> 00:09:36,365\n會的不會增加他們的負擔不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔好\n\n27\n00:09:38,252 --> 00:10:06,044\n那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在\n\n28\n00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:27,172\n一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少\n\n29\n00:10:28,914 --> 00:10:51,972\n意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。\n\n30\n00:10:53,137 --> 00:11:20,770\n我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎\n\n31\n00:11:23,114 --> 00:11:23,134\n臺灣銀行\n\n32\n00:11:37,121 --> 00:11:58,000\n臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望\n\n33\n00:11:58,681 --> 00:12:13,786\n因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故\n\n34\n00:12:14,636 --> 00:12:42,002\n他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的\n\n35\n00:12:43,291 --> 00:12:45,292\n。二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。三\n\n36\n00:13:13,538 --> 00:13:14,759\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n37\n00:13:30,147 --> 00:13:51,334\n你把這個事件一攤三百幾,我看起來我就嚇一跳,所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉,然後利息再趕,就是說我們這個需要利息的費用再把它壓下來,對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊。\n\n38\n00:13:53,486 --> 00:14:01,769\n謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳這個利息的這個金額\n\n39\n00:14:06,343 --> 00:14:33,761\n第二,我要感謝台電這幾年在推動電纜地下化,事實上有蠻不錯的成績,不管是在屏東這個種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在我們鋪子市也有這個開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道了說有一些紅胎,每一架紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,\n\n40\n00:14:36,724 --> 00:14:44,473\n電費條對,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電費條更高\n\n41\n00:14:46,118 --> 00:14:49,459\n阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久\n\n42\n00:15:07,643 --> 00:15:36,500\n新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好地去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景四隆\n\n43\n00:15:41,389 --> 00:15:41,531\n。（10月29日（。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8121\t23193\t謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。\n30216\t37149\t蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個\n39258\t66407\t就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本\n66837\t84813\t也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?現在就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是\n86506\t99535\t現在的 現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前\n100615\t104779\t二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n123958\t127000\t三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三\n146030\t160292\t在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說看這個時候要買多少\n162523\t175721\t是的跟委員報告2021年之後臺電的這個燃料的成本上漲了大概兩倍大概6000億的支出所以造成當時的財務造成很大的一個困難那2023年之後\n177523\t197181\t因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳律委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況\n203665\t223298\t在目前情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的美所以可能還是在高價的美\n223578\t223598\t韓國瑜議員\n252554\t272658\t因為我們對於這個煤價這狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多\n282496\t309554\t所以理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不愛燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量要漸漸下去降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要\n310515\t310735\t主席\n333053\t353839\t這個我們在計畫上面是有這就是要有 你們有一個因應措施嘛 對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇 台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊\n354859\t380595\t對,我們在買這個材料就是有幾個方式啦就是說一個是我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊就載來我們的桶槽放,這是最方便啦另外一種是我們這個供應方在他那個地方放在那裡所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程\n382476\t409816\t這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在所以這個部分我們會參考我這個覺得真的有必要要說好第二個我要問因為台電事實上外面都給他一個名字這個名字聽起來我覺得還蠻好聽的就是說物價消波快\n410794\t414956\t臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在\n432785\t453628\t一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候﹐大概台電吸收了兩千八百億﹐在二零二三年的時候﹐吸收了兩千零八十六億﹐在二零二四年﹐吸收了一五五二億﹐這是這段時間﹐台電為了穩定物價﹐以及為了產業的發展﹐台電相對付出﹐那後來﹐我們知道說在今年年初的時候﹐\n454369\t473484\t我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編築這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助\n475225\t488082\t所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多\n489185\t515768\t普天的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這一次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電\n516889\t530358\t大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線\n532279\t533579\t部長,明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎?\n561548\t576365\t會的 不會增加他們的負擔 不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔好\n578252\t606044\t那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在\n609090\t627172\t一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少\n628914\t651972\t意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。\n653137\t680770\t我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎\n683114\t683134\t臺灣銀行\n697121\t718000\t臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望\n718681\t733786\t因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故\n734636\t762002\t他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的\n763291\t765292\t。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三\n793538\t794759\t二、行政院院長提出\n810147\t831334\t你把這個事件一攤三百幾,我看起來我就嚇一跳,所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉,然後利息再趕,就是說我們這個需要利息的費用再把它壓下來,對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊。\n833486\t841769\t謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳這個利息的這個金額\n846343\t873761\t第二,我要感謝台電這幾年在推動電纜地下化,事實上有蠻不錯的成績,不管是在屏東這個種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在我們鋪子市也有這個開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道了說有一些紅胎,每一架紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,\n876724\t884473\t電費條對,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電費條更高\n886118\t889459\t阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久\n907643\t936500\t新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好地去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是 報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景四隆\n941389\t941531\t。（10月29日（。\n","txt":"謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。\n蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個\n就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本\n也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?現在就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是\n現在的 現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三\n在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說看這個時候要買多少\n是的跟委員報告2021年之後臺電的這個燃料的成本上漲了大概兩倍大概6000億的支出所以造成當時的財務造成很大的一個困難那2023年之後\n因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳律委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況\n在目前情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的美所以可能還是在高價的美\n韓國瑜議員\n因為我們對於這個煤價這狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多\n所以理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不愛燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量要漸漸下去降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要\n主席\n這個我們在計畫上面是有這就是要有 你們有一個因應措施嘛 對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇 台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊\n對,我們在買這個材料就是有幾個方式啦就是說一個是我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊就載來我們的桶槽放,這是最方便啦另外一種是我們這個供應方在他那個地方放在那裡所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程\n這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在所以這個部分我們會參考我這個覺得真的有必要要說好第二個我要問因為台電事實上外面都給他一個名字這個名字聽起來我覺得還蠻好聽的就是說物價消波快\n臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在\n一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候﹐大概台電吸收了兩千八百億﹐在二零二三年的時候﹐吸收了兩千零八十六億﹐在二零二四年﹐吸收了一五五二億﹐這是這段時間﹐台電為了穩定物價﹐以及為了產業的發展﹐台電相對付出﹐那後來﹐我們知道說在今年年初的時候﹐\n我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編築這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助\n所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多\n普天的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這一次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電\n大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線\n部長,明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎?\n會的 不會增加他們的負擔 不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔好\n那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在\n一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少\n意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。\n我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎\n臺灣銀行\n臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望\n因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故\n他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的\n。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三\n二、行政院院長提出\n你把這個事件一攤三百幾,我看起來我就嚇一跳,所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉,然後利息再趕,就是說我們這個需要利息的費用再把它壓下來,對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊。\n謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳這個利息的這個金額\n第二,我要感謝台電這幾年在推動電纜地下化,事實上有蠻不錯的成績,不管是在屏東這個種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在我們鋪子市也有這個開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道了說有一些紅胎,每一架紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,\n電費條對,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電費條更高\n阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久\n新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好地去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是 報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景四隆\n。（10月29日（。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.121 --> 00:23.193\n謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。\n\n00:30.216 --> 00:37.149\n蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個\n\n00:39.258 --> 01:06.407\n就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本\n\n01:06.837 --> 01:24.813\n也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?現在就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是\n\n01:26.506 --> 01:39.535\n現在的現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前\n\n01:40.615 --> 01:44.779\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n02:03.958 --> 02:07.000\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。三\n\n02:26.030 --> 02:40.292\n在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說看這個時候要買多少\n\n02:42.523 --> 02:55.721\n是的跟委員報告2021年之後臺電的這個燃料的成本上漲了大概兩倍大概6000億的支出所以造成當時的財務造成很大的一個困難那2023年之後\n\n02:57.523 --> 03:17.181\n因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳律委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況\n\n03:23.665 --> 03:43.298\n在目前情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的美所以可能還是在高價的美\n\n03:43.578 --> 03:43.598\n韓國瑜議員\n\n04:12.554 --> 04:32.658\n因為我們對於這個煤價這狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多\n\n04:42.496 --> 05:09.554\n所以理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不愛燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量要漸漸下去降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要\n\n05:10.515 --> 05:10.735\n主席\n\n05:33.053 --> 05:53.839\n這個我們在計畫上面是有這就是要有你們有一個因應措施嘛對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊\n\n05:54.859 --> 06:20.595\n對,我們在買這個材料就是有幾個方式啦就是說一個是我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊就載來我們的桶槽放,這是最方便啦另外一種是我們這個供應方在他那個地方放在那裡所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程\n\n06:22.476 --> 06:49.816\n這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在所以這個部分我們會參考我這個覺得真的有必要要說好第二個我要問因為台電事實上外面都給他一個名字這個名字聽起來我覺得還蠻好聽的就是說物價消波快\n\n06:50.794 --> 06:54.956\n臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在\n\n07:12.785 --> 07:33.628\n一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候﹐大概台電吸收了兩千八百億﹐在二零二三年的時候﹐吸收了兩千零八十六億﹐在二零二四年﹐吸收了一五五二億﹐這是這段時間﹐台電為了穩定物價﹐以及為了產業的發展﹐台電相對付出﹐那後來﹐我們知道說在今年年初的時候﹐\n\n07:34.369 --> 07:53.484\n我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編築這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助\n\n07:55.225 --> 08:08.082\n所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多\n\n08:09.185 --> 08:35.768\n普天的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這一次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電\n\n08:36.889 --> 08:50.358\n大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線\n\n08:52.279 --> 08:53.579\n部長,明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎?\n\n09:21.548 --> 09:36.365\n會的不會增加他們的負擔不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔好\n\n09:38.252 --> 10:06.044\n那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在\n\n10:09.090 --> 10:27.172\n一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少\n\n10:28.914 --> 10:51.972\n意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。\n\n10:53.137 --> 11:20.770\n我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎\n\n11:23.114 --> 11:23.134\n臺灣銀行\n\n11:37.121 --> 11:58.000\n臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望\n\n11:58.681 --> 12:13.786\n因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故\n\n12:14.636 --> 12:42.002\n他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的\n\n12:43.291 --> 12:45.292\n。二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。三\n\n13:13.538 --> 13:14.759\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n13:30.147 --> 13:51.334\n你把這個事件一攤三百幾,我看起來我就嚇一跳,所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉,然後利息再趕,就是說我們這個需要利息的費用再把它壓下來,對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊。\n\n13:53.486 --> 14:01.769\n謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳這個利息的這個金額\n\n14:06.343 --> 14:33.761\n第二,我要感謝台電這幾年在推動電纜地下化,事實上有蠻不錯的成績,不管是在屏東這個種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在我們鋪子市也有這個開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道了說有一些紅胎,每一架紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,\n\n14:36.724 --> 14:44.473\n電費條對,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電費條更高\n\n14:46.118 --> 14:49.459\n阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久\n\n15:07.643 --> 15:36.500\n新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好地去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景四隆\n\n15:41.389 --> 15:41.531\n。（10月29日（。\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.121,"end":23.193,"text":"謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。"},{"start":30.216,"end":37.149,"text":"蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個"},{"start":39.258,"end":66.407,"text":"就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本"},{"start":66.837,"end":84.813,"text":"也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?現在就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是"},{"start":86.506,"end":99.535,"text":"現在的 現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前"},{"start":100.615,"end":104.779,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":123.958,"end":127,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":146.03,"end":160.292,"text":"在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說看這個時候要買多少"},{"start":162.523,"end":175.721,"text":"是的跟委員報告2021年之後臺電的這個燃料的成本上漲了大概兩倍大概6000億的支出所以造成當時的財務造成很大的一個困難那2023年之後"},{"start":177.523,"end":197.181,"text":"因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳律委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況"},{"start":203.665,"end":223.298,"text":"在目前情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的美所以可能還是在高價的美"},{"start":223.578,"end":223.598,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":252.554,"end":272.658,"text":"因為我們對於這個煤價這狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多"},{"start":282.496,"end":309.554,"text":"所以理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不愛燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量要漸漸下去降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要"},{"start":310.515,"end":310.735,"text":"主席"},{"start":333.053,"end":353.839,"text":"這個我們在計畫上面是有這就是要有 你們有一個因應措施嘛 對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇 台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊"},{"start":354.859,"end":380.595,"text":"對,我們在買這個材料就是有幾個方式啦就是說一個是我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊就載來我們的桶槽放,這是最方便啦另外一種是我們這個供應方在他那個地方放在那裡所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程"},{"start":382.476,"end":409.816,"text":"這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在所以這個部分我們會參考我這個覺得真的有必要要說好第二個我要問因為台電事實上外面都給他一個名字這個名字聽起來我覺得還蠻好聽的就是說物價消波快"},{"start":410.794,"end":414.956,"text":"臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在"},{"start":432.785,"end":453.628,"text":"一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候﹐大概台電吸收了兩千八百億﹐在二零二三年的時候﹐吸收了兩千零八十六億﹐在二零二四年﹐吸收了一五五二億﹐這是這段時間﹐台電為了穩定物價﹐以及為了產業的發展﹐台電相對付出﹐那後來﹐我們知道說在今年年初的時候﹐"},{"start":454.369,"end":473.484,"text":"我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編築這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助"},{"start":475.225,"end":488.082,"text":"所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多"},{"start":489.185,"end":515.768,"text":"普天的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這一次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電"},{"start":516.889,"end":530.358,"text":"大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線"},{"start":532.279,"end":533.579,"text":"部長,明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎?"},{"start":561.548,"end":576.365,"text":"會的 不會增加他們的負擔 不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔好"},{"start":578.252,"end":606.044,"text":"那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在"},{"start":609.09,"end":627.172,"text":"一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少"},{"start":628.914,"end":651.972,"text":"意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。"},{"start":653.137,"end":680.77,"text":"我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎"},{"start":683.114,"end":683.134,"text":"臺灣銀行"},{"start":697.121,"end":718,"text":"臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望"},{"start":718.681,"end":733.786,"text":"因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故"},{"start":734.636,"end":762.002,"text":"他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的"},{"start":763.291,"end":765.292,"text":"。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":793.538,"end":794.759,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":810.147,"end":831.334,"text":"你把這個事件一攤三百幾,我看起來我就嚇一跳,所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉,然後利息再趕,就是說我們這個需要利息的費用再把它壓下來,對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊。"},{"start":833.486,"end":841.769,"text":"謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳這個利息的這個金額"},{"start":846.343,"end":873.761,"text":"第二,我要感謝台電這幾年在推動電纜地下化,事實上有蠻不錯的成績,不管是在屏東這個種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在我們鋪子市也有這個開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道了說有一些紅胎,每一架紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,"},{"start":876.724,"end":884.473,"text":"電費條對,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電費條更高"},{"start":886.118,"end":889.459,"text":"阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久"},{"start":907.643,"end":936.5,"text":"新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好地去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是 報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景四隆"},{"start":941.389,"end":941.531,"text":"。（10月29日（。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時30分）謝謝院長，我們有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。"],["主席：跟蔡委員報告一下，台電不能備詢，不是部長，好不好？"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那就部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長好。院長，我們今天討論的主要就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策，這當然涉及到未來我們希望立法院可以排案來審，是不是可以來追加這個2,000億，作為台電未來的補充？所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下現在台電的成本、發電的成本，也就是說，我們現在一直在強調的是，在戰爭的時候，發電的成本是戰爭前的2倍，那它的數字到底是怎樣？這個部長可以說明一下嗎？以及現在的部分，就是戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是怎麼樣的情形？"],["郭部長智輝：現在跟最高點比起來是有回復了一點，但是目前雖然材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前差不多的高點……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以是回到俄烏戰爭前？俄烏戰爭的時候最高嘛，那也是造成那兩年台電的虧損非常的巨大，主要就是購料的成本。"],["郭部長智輝：那個時候就是因為它的成本比較高，然後我們又對民眾……我們的民生電價是凍漲，那個時候民生電價是凍漲，所以造成這個虧損。"],["蔡委員易餘：有幾個因素，我想跟院長、部長先聊這個購煤的成本，如果現在不管是天然氣或者是煤價都相對回到戰爭前的因素的話，未來在國際上，整個國際的情勢會怎麼變化？戰爭會不會再持續下去？這件事好像是一個問號，如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本，那麼院長，我們有沒有考慮趁這個時候多買一些？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，跟委員報告，2021年之後，台電的燃料成本上漲了2倍，大概6,000億的支出，所以對當時的財務造成很大的困難，而2023年之後，因為國際情勢稍緩，原物料價格有稍微下降，但是誠如委員所說的，現在的國際情勢相當的不穩定，我們無法預期。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們無法預測。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，台電在購煤等等的契約都是屬於一個比較長期的契約，所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況，它可能有長期的契約，而我們現在是說，如果現在有穩定的供貨來源，在目前的情況之下，我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討，目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略，買多或買少將來都可能是不知道怎麼樣的投資，但是穩定優先的話，目前必須要有一些作為，這倒是應該參考委員的意見。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為我們事實上買的可能是過去購買的煤，所以可能還是在高價的煤。"],["卓院長榮泰：可能。"],["蔡委員易餘：我現在只是要藉由這個機會，我覺得我們也是要去判斷，畢竟未來的局勢不知道啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果現在這個煤價好不容易回到戰爭前、相對低價，說不定這個時候我們不出手，未來萬一歐洲有狀況、俄羅斯再亂一次，那怎麼辦？所以台電長久的因應，因為我們對於煤價的狀況是無法掌握的，所以我們在便宜的時候多買一點煤，是不是也是應該要去考慮？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在大概……我想委員應該很清楚，通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格，特別是國際間的買賣都是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然、當然！"],["郭部長智輝：我們以後其實是低碳的天然氣會比較多，所以理論上，我們應該是去把握低碳的天然氣。我們因為要減碳，減碳是我們一個很大的目標，所以燒煤炭的機械，我們現在就儘量不燒了，所以保持我們過去的使用量，然後漸漸降下去。我個人也有在討論，就是這個命題我們還是要去討論，是不是要做那麼高的保護，因為我們是要多元的綠能。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這樣問題就來了嘛！如果說天然氣是比較占主體，我們天然氣現在儲放的，包括我們接收站的進度，包括那裡的儲放槽是不是可以再多一點？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們在計畫上面是有。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們要有一個因應措施嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個能源配比會決定未來整個我們需要能源，那我們要有多少的戰略布局，我們要避免及因應國際情勢的不穩定，然後價格在飆高的時候，台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們在買這個材料有幾個方式，如果說我們有預備的桶槽，就載來我們的桶槽放，這是一種方法。另外一種是放在供應方那邊，這個我們都會去考慮到，包括未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的路程。我想總量的控制，台電跟中油他們都有比較實際的、rolling的計畫在，所以這個部分我們會參考……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這真的有必要思考好。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個我要問，對於台電，外界都給它一個名字，這個名字聽起來，我覺得還滿好聽的，叫做物價消波塊！這是外界給台電公司的名字，確實它也肩負這樣的使命，所以在110到113年，我們看到台電為了穩定物價，照顧民生跟弱勢的補貼，以及為了產業電價沒有調足的部分，在111（2022）年的時候，大概台電吸收了2,800億，在2023年的時候吸收了2,086億，在2024年吸收了1,552億，這是這段時間，台電為了穩定物價以及為了產業的發展，台電相對付出、它去吸收的。後來我們知道在今年年初的時候，我們做了一個決定，認為這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔，所以未來我們會在各部門的預算來編足這部分，作為照顧民生、弱勢，包括農漁業、包括學校、包括社福團體的補助。如果我們這樣說的話，請看一下我2024的這個表格，在1,552億的部分，是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多？"],["卓院長榮泰：補貼的政策我們正在檢討，現在已經部分回歸目的事業主管機關去了，而且過去三年，公務機關沒有補足的這些預算，我們也在明年的預算當中，把它補足了將近30%的漲幅，幾年都沒有調公務預算；這就是讓台電，第一個能夠反映成本。這次在10月份的調整當中，我們只集中在5%左右這些產業用電大戶，95%的住家、小商店是凍漲的，所以台電還是要部分承受這樣的補貼政策。台電的同仁，風雨來的時候，他要出去修電線，物價在漲的時候，他要擋住、穩定物價，所以經常是非常辛苦的，我們最近會對台電的同仁做比較大的一些感謝動作。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。所以，部長，我想要問一下，如果我們希望未來由台電來負擔，比方說一些弱勢團體的補助，回到部會，把預算拉回到部會，事實上，院長剛剛就有說，明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：會的。"],["蔡委員易餘：會持續？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會增加他們的負擔。如果這個目的事業主管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話，也可以，但是相對的有一些現在在我們凍漲範圍當中所涵蓋的，也同樣不會增加他們的負擔。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那我再問下一題，一樣是針對台電的財務結構，看起來台電的資產每年都有在增加，負債也在提高，這就是這幾年台電實際上面對的狀況，但是我也看到利息的支出越來越多，台電的利息支出從過去大概180億的水平，到114年就會增加到320億，利息支出的增加是每年持續要負擔的，所以，我們如果沒有辦法趕快減少台電的虧損，意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付，每年會產生320億的利息，實在很恐怖。所以我在這裡提出另外一個想法，就是到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來彌補台電這件事，我們真的不知道。我們希望大家為了臺灣整體電力的發展，可以讓這個預算通過，但是我們不知道最後會不會通過，所以我也在想到底還有什麼措施可以幫台電改善財務結構。我後來看到這個利息支出，我也想要問一下，既然有這樣的利息，就是跟銀行借的，請問主要集中在哪些銀行？是官股銀行嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，報告委員我是不清楚。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得回去可以問一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我回去以後了解……"],["蔡委員易餘：據我私下了解應該是臺灣銀行最多，如果是臺灣銀行的話，就是百分之百政府經營的銀行，這部分能不能在銀行面，也可以去幫台電做一些利息上的吸收，讓台電先減少利息支出，這也是一個可以去思考的方向。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二，我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多，我也希望台電在跟銀行借貸的時候要慎選銀行，不要變成讓銀行平白無故得到這樣一個放款，因為大家都對台電有信心啊，台電一定會支付利息的，台電哪有可能欠利息？所以我是覺得儘量還是要跟臺銀借，因為臺銀畢竟就是政府的，當然台電要有規劃，可是我覺得避免利息增加然後產生弊端，這個我是覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，確實資料上看起來是臺銀貸款的額度比較大，如果我們能夠從利率或是新的措施上面著手，降低台電的利息……但是也不會影響臺銀比較大的營利……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，我覺得如果跟臺銀借錢，因為兩個都是官股，兩個官股之間就可以去調整，但如果去跟其他民間銀行貸款的話，那要他們利息算便宜一點，我想不可能，這個要注意。因此我要再呼籲，這兩千億真的很重要，應該趕快把這兩千億和一些負債打消，何必讓銀行去賺這個錢？你只要想一年三百多億的利息，我就嚇一跳，所以我覺得應該趕快把一些負債攤掉，把利息的費用壓下來，馬上就可以很快減少台電的現金支出。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，有關台電的財務、融資，我想我們會努力來降低應繳的利息。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，我要感謝台電這幾年推動電纜地下化，事實上有蠻不錯的成績，不管是在屏東種樹百里，那邊現在很漂亮，甚至是我們朴子市開元路的電纜地下化，但是在小犬颱風之後，我們知道有一些颱風，每一次颱風來，電線桿就都倒了。所以我是希望台電，我們應該再去盤整，電纜地下化會支出一些成本，成本會比豎電線桿還高，但是每一次颱風來，電線桿倒了，我們就要那麼多員工，甚至還發包出去給一個下游的配合廠商做電線桿修繕，那也是成本。如果這個成本你們相較之下，去把它拉起來做電纜地下化，能撐的時間相對上比較久，將成本拉長來看是不是比較划算？我覺得台電應該好好思考，盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化，而且這個推動的速度再大力一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們會再考量在地質、地理及工程、技術、財源等這幾個前提之下，評估地下化的可行性。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得地下化，臺灣真的是電線桿太多了。為了臺灣的整個街景、市容，我們儘量推動一些地下化是正確的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第11位洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}