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{\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 224.664, \"end\": 225.044, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 225.044, \"end\": 225.904, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 225.904, \"end\": 226.164, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 226.164, \"end\": 226.444, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"貨\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 226.444, \"end\": 226.584, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 226.584, \"end\": 226.685, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 226.685, \"end\": 226.705, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 228.125, \"end\": 252.004, \"text\": \"也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅約能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同同意完全同意\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 228.125, \"end\": 228.285, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 228.285, \"end\": 228.466, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 228.466, 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00:00:58,429\n其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點\n\n3\n00:00:59,738 --> 00:01:27,565\n每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝\n\n4\n00:01:29,827 --> 00:01:46,244\n那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示\n\n5\n00:01:47,148 --> 00:02:12,079\n那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個\n\n6\n00:02:14,349 --> 00:02:40,383\n有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那部長我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是\n\n7\n00:02:41,889 --> 00:02:50,766\n部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:52,857 --> 00:03:20,152\n過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成\n\n9\n00:03:20,652 --> 00:03:46,705\n我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說華莊這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題\n\n10\n00:03:48,125 --> 00:04:12,004\n也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅約能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同同意完全同意\n\n11\n00:04:12,875 --> 00:04:40,954\n部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁\n\n12\n00:04:43,211 --> 00:04:57,504\n其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻\n\n13\n00:04:58,922 --> 00:05:26,421\n但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實\n\n14\n00:05:29,773 --> 00:05:34,088\n報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩\n\n15\n00:05:35,202 --> 00:05:59,195\n因為我們還是看到問題是我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策這個綠色能源的政策能夠ontime部長但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題\n\n16\n00:06:01,576 --> 00:06:01,596\n韓國瑜\n\n17\n00:06:20,913 --> 00:06:44,734\n他一給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾\n\n18\n00:06:47,830 --> 00:07:15,459\n那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證\n\n19\n00:07:16,979 --> 00:07:44,395\n話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰要被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題\n\n20\n00:07:46,162 --> 00:08:06,312\n現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意\n\n21\n00:08:07,292 --> 00:08:31,901\n我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟您很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題\n\n22\n00:08:32,961 --> 00:08:57,310\n第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來\n\n23\n00:08:58,030 --> 00:08:58,251\n。（10月29日（。\n\n24\n00:09:10,336 --> 00:09:28,788\n一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長\n\n25\n00:09:31,923 --> 00:09:51,412\n你們同意嗎?經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走,尤其3-3的部分,我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後,他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展,所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的。\n\n26\n00:09:51,832 --> 00:10:18,264\n那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期並往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期並往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題\n\n27\n00:10:19,705 --> 00:10:45,670\n所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能\n\n28\n00:10:46,837 --> 00:11:15,717\n那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張\n\n29\n00:11:16,497 --> 00:11:37,921\n其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K\n\n30\n00:11:46,769 --> 00:11:51,092\n三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下\n\n31\n00:12:04,369 --> 00:12:30,235\n那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的準收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間\n\n32\n00:12:32,995 --> 00:12:59,222\n這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以\n\n33\n00:13:00,623 --> 00:13:01,164\n部長,你覺得呢?\n\n34\n00:13:15,862 --> 00:13:29,889\n是的我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算\n\n35\n00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:52,451\n因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多\n\n36\n00:13:53,132 --> 00:13:53,152\n。三\n\n37\n00:14:15,365 --> 00:14:33,884\n那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的\n\n38\n00:14:34,304 --> 00:14:34,544\n（10月29日（。\n\n39\n00:14:51,585 --> 00:15:01,552\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（\n\n40\n00:15:20,993 --> 00:15:27,316\n是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6740\t11684\t謝謝院長那想請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢黃委員好卓院長跟郭部長其實在我今天的質詢之前因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡宇委員\n31092\t58429\t其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點\n59738\t87565\t每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝\n89827\t106244\t那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示\n107148\t132079\t那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個\n134349\t160383\t有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那部長我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是\n161889\t170766\t部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼\n172857\t200152\t過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成\n200652\t226705\t我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說華莊這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題\n228125\t252004\t也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅約能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同同意完全同意\n252875\t280954\t部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁\n283211\t297504\t其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻\n298922\t326421\t但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實\n329773\t334088\t報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩\n335202\t359195\t因為我們還是看到問題是我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策這個綠色能源的政策能夠on time部長但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題\n361576\t361596\t韓國瑜\n380913\t404734\t他一給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾\n407830\t435459\t那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證\n436979\t464395\t話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰要被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題\n466162\t486312\t現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意\n487292\t511901\t我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟您很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題\n512961\t537310\t第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來\n538030\t538251\t。（10月29日（。\n550336\t568788\t一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長\n571923\t591412\t你們同意嗎?經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走,尤其3-3的部分,我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後,他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展,所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的。\n591832\t618264\t那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期並往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期並往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題\n619705\t645670\t所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能\n646837\t675717\t那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張\n676497\t697921\t其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K\n706769\t711092\t三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下\n724369\t750235\t那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的準收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間\n752995\t779222\t這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以\n780623\t781164\t部長,你覺得呢?\n795862\t809889\t是的我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算\n811750\t832451\t因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多\n833132\t833152\t。 三\n855365\t873884\t那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的\n874304\t874544\t（10月29日（。\n891585\t901552\t三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（\n920993\t927316\t是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向\n","txt":"謝謝院長那想請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢黃委員好卓院長跟郭部長其實在我今天的質詢之前因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡宇委員\n其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點\n每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝\n那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示\n那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個\n有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那部長我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是\n部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼\n過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成\n我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說華莊這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題\n也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅約能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同同意完全同意\n部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁\n其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻\n但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實\n報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩\n因為我們還是看到問題是我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策這個綠色能源的政策能夠on time部長但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題\n韓國瑜\n他一給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾\n那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證\n話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰要被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題\n現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意\n我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟您很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題\n第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來\n。（10月29日（。\n一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長\n你們同意嗎?經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走,尤其3-3的部分,我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後,他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展,所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的。\n那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期並往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期並往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題\n所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能\n那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張\n其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K\n三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下\n那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的準收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間\n這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以\n部長,你覺得呢?\n是的我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算\n因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多\n。 三\n那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的\n（10月29日（。\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（\n是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.740 --> 00:11.684\n謝謝院長那想請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢黃委員好卓院長跟郭部長其實在我今天的質詢之前因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡宇委員\n\n00:31.092 --> 00:58.429\n其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點\n\n00:59.738 --> 01:27.565\n每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝\n\n01:29.827 --> 01:46.244\n那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示\n\n01:47.148 --> 02:12.079\n那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個\n\n02:14.349 --> 02:40.383\n有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那部長我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是\n\n02:41.889 --> 02:50.766\n部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼\n\n02:52.857 --> 03:20.152\n過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成\n\n03:20.652 --> 03:46.705\n我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說華莊這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題\n\n03:48.125 --> 04:12.004\n也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅約能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同同意完全同意\n\n04:12.875 --> 04:40.954\n部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁\n\n04:43.211 --> 04:57.504\n其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻\n\n04:58.922 --> 05:26.421\n但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實\n\n05:29.773 --> 05:34.088\n報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩\n\n05:35.202 --> 05:59.195\n因為我們還是看到問題是我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策這個綠色能源的政策能夠ontime部長但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題\n\n06:01.576 --> 06:01.596\n韓國瑜\n\n06:20.913 --> 06:44.734\n他一給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾\n\n06:47.830 --> 07:15.459\n那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證\n\n07:16.979 --> 07:44.395\n話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰要被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題\n\n07:46.162 --> 08:06.312\n現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意\n\n08:07.292 --> 08:31.901\n我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟您很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題\n\n08:32.961 --> 08:57.310\n第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來\n\n08:58.030 --> 08:58.251\n。（10月29日（。\n\n09:10.336 --> 09:28.788\n一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長\n\n09:31.923 --> 09:51.412\n你們同意嗎?經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走,尤其3-3的部分,我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後,他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展,所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的。\n\n09:51.832 --> 10:18.264\n那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期並往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期並往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題\n\n10:19.705 --> 10:45.670\n所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能\n\n10:46.837 --> 11:15.717\n那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張\n\n11:16.497 --> 11:37.921\n其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K\n\n11:46.769 --> 11:51.092\n三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下\n\n12:04.369 --> 12:30.235\n那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的準收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間\n\n12:32.995 --> 12:59.222\n這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以\n\n13:00.623 --> 13:01.164\n部長,你覺得呢?\n\n13:15.862 --> 13:29.889\n是的我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算\n\n13:31.750 --> 13:52.451\n因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多\n\n13:53.132 --> 13:53.152\n。三\n\n14:15.365 --> 14:33.884\n那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的\n\n14:34.304 --> 14:34.544\n（10月29日（。\n\n14:51.585 --> 15:01.552\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（\n\n15:20.993 --> 15:27.316\n是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.74,"end":11.684,"text":"謝謝院長那想請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢黃委員好卓院長跟郭部長其實在我今天的質詢之前因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡宇委員"},{"start":31.092,"end":58.429,"text":"其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點"},{"start":59.738,"end":87.565,"text":"每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝"},{"start":89.827,"end":106.244,"text":"那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示"},{"start":107.148,"end":132.079,"text":"那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個"},{"start":134.349,"end":160.383,"text":"有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那部長我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是"},{"start":161.889,"end":170.766,"text":"部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼"},{"start":172.857,"end":200.152,"text":"過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成"},{"start":200.652,"end":226.705,"text":"我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說華莊這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題"},{"start":228.125,"end":252.004,"text":"也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅約能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同同意完全同意"},{"start":252.875,"end":280.954,"text":"部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁"},{"start":283.211,"end":297.504,"text":"其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻"},{"start":298.922,"end":326.421,"text":"但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實"},{"start":329.773,"end":334.088,"text":"報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩"},{"start":335.202,"end":359.195,"text":"因為我們還是看到問題是我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策這個綠色能源的政策能夠on time部長但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題"},{"start":361.576,"end":361.596,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":380.913,"end":404.734,"text":"他一給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾"},{"start":407.83,"end":435.459,"text":"那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證"},{"start":436.979,"end":464.395,"text":"話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰要被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題"},{"start":466.162,"end":486.312,"text":"現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意"},{"start":487.292,"end":511.901,"text":"我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟您很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題"},{"start":512.961,"end":537.31,"text":"第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來"},{"start":538.03,"end":538.251,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":550.336,"end":568.788,"text":"一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長"},{"start":571.923,"end":591.412,"text":"你們同意嗎?經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走,尤其3-3的部分,我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後,他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展,所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的。"},{"start":591.832,"end":618.264,"text":"那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期並往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期並往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題"},{"start":619.705,"end":645.67,"text":"所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能"},{"start":646.837,"end":675.717,"text":"那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張"},{"start":676.497,"end":697.921,"text":"其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K"},{"start":706.769,"end":711.092,"text":"三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下"},{"start":724.369,"end":750.235,"text":"那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的準收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間"},{"start":752.995,"end":779.222,"text":"這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以"},{"start":780.623,"end":781.164,"text":"部長,你覺得呢?"},{"start":795.862,"end":809.889,"text":"是的我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算"},{"start":811.75,"end":832.451,"text":"因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多"},{"start":833.132,"end":833.152,"text":"。 三"},{"start":855.365,"end":873.884,"text":"那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的"},{"start":874.304,"end":874.544,"text":"（10月29日（。"},{"start":891.585,"end":901.552,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（"},{"start":920.993,"end":927.316,"text":"是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":54,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（14時46分）謝謝院長，想請卓院長和郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：卓院長和郭部長。在我今天的質詢之前，因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡易餘委員，一開始有一段講到，到底我們目前的化石燃料價格，包括燃煤和燃氣，跟烏俄戰爭之前比起來如何？我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏俄戰爭之前一樣。可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下，就我目前手上的數據，目前燃煤的價格其實應該是比烏俄戰爭前還高出一倍，雖然已經從最高點每噸400塊美金降下來，現在140塊美金，但還是比烏俄戰爭前高出一倍；天然氣的價格也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%。所以這部分我還是要提醒部長，免得如果媒體寫出去，大家會很困惑。我們接下來說台電要追加減預算等等後面這些財務上方案的原因的話，這部分我還是要提醒一下部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天的質詢其實想跟院長和部長討論關於離岸風電的問題，我想大家都知道最近離岸風電國產化引起很多討論，尤其是在歐盟狀告WTO之後，我看到郭部長也有一些公開的表示。我長期其實一直非常關注離岸風電的政策，很多產業界的朋友，大家也很密切地討論。我必須說，風電國產化的政策，當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展機會，這是確定的。但如果仔細看這個過程，比方現在我們確實看到一些本土供應商，它供應的能力或者是供應時程上面的一些變數，包括有些銀行在融資上面，也從這個角度上而有一些猶豫的因素。我自己覺得，確實有一些政策環節需要做進一步的相關檢討和討論，有這個討論的空間。部長，我看到你之前講到一個很重要的概念，說希望接下來我們的離岸風電，其實很重要的事情是要可以如期併網，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我想請問，過去我們幾個風場，如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話，就你知道的可能因素有哪些，原因是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商，當然很多像有的是它自己資金的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：我說就你知道的有哪些因素？"],["郭部長智輝：資金的問題、技術的問題，以及國產化不足的問題，這些都造成它沒有辦法如期併網。還有俄烏戰爭，因為戰爭的影響，歐洲的船沒有辦法進來臺灣施工，我想這些都是環境上面造成的。"],["洪委員申翰：我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業，我們在過去的經驗裡面學習，大家可以看一下這幾個，我們看到過去一些具體發生的、無法如期併網的原因，比方說滑樁，這是技術的問題，比方說貸款不順利，這是融資財務的問題，還有一些工程上面的問題，包括國產化交貨的問題，也有一些是遇到抗爭，所以如果我總體歸納的話，大概可以歸納成四大風險要素：第一個是國產化供貨順利與否，第二個是技術的專業能力到位與否，第三個是財務與履約能力到位與否，第四個是社會環境的接受度。我大概歸納了這四個，部長同不同意？"],["郭部長智輝：完全同意。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，如果我們很明確知道這些因素其實都是過去一段時間以來風場很具體的風險因素的話，照理來說，我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理策略，對不對？甚至應該在我們選商的遊戲規則裡面，把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標設計進去，部長同不同意？"],["郭部長智輝：我同意委員這個指教。"],["洪委員申翰：但是現在我們看到的狀況是這樣：在我們現在離岸風電的選商過程裡面，第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力、財務能力這些事情，但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻、幾乎所有廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻，但實質上到了第二階段的競比，我們比兩件事情，第一個是比價格，第二個是比國產化承諾。大家都知道價格方面現在大家投標都是零元競標，所以價格已經不具鑑別性了，以致現在所有的廠商都在比所謂的國產化承諾。因此我們在整個選商的過程裡面，真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾，坦白說，我自己認為這有一點偏食。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您的這個指教，我個人非常的敬佩，因為我們還是看到問題，我們的問題是在是否能夠如期併網，所以我們現在的態度就是，如果他們需要我們的協助的話，讓它能夠如期併網，如期併網才能讓我們的綠色能源政策on time。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，但我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題、遊戲規則設計的問題，我現在說的事情是，我們過去明明看到有些是因為技術問題、是因為融資財務的問題，這些能力的差異應該要被鑑別出來啊！可是從我們過去這一整套選商的遊戲規則裡面看起來，對於這些具體的風險因素好像沒把差異給鑑別出來，它只放在第一階段那個基本門檻，幾乎大家都會過啦！簡單來說，所有人都會過啦！可是有些人雖然過了這個基本門檻，但他最後還是發生技術上面的問題、還是發生財務跟融資上面的問題，這代表我們這整套遊戲設計是有一些調整跟檢討空間的。","尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的承諾。現在大家對國產化的討論當然很多，我覺得這是一個好的討論，可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題，坦白說，我怕會有一點見樹不見林。照理來說，我們的離岸風電政策應該顧及的面向很多啊！怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾？而且對於這個國產化承諾，我說實話，當我們偏重在國產化承諾的時候，我覺得可能就會有很多廠商在面對我們政府的時候做出過度的保證，把話講得有一點滿。一開始覺得都可以做得到，但後來實際上面卻好像不是這樣，甚至要被開罰、要被處罰，變成風場能不能如期併網的變數，這就影響到我們的能源政策了，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員申翰：所以部長，我在這邊也想跟院長報告，我自己覺得，關於國產化政策，我們當然可以檢討，可是這不是一個0跟1的問題，現在這些具體的因素，包括我說的技術專業能力、財務能力、應對社會環境溝通的準備能力，這些能力如果是重要的風險管理指標的話，都應該具體設計進我們選商的遊戲規則裡面，而且要有鑑別性，不能像過去一樣沒有鑑別性啊！部長同不同意？"],["郭部長智輝：我完全同意委員的指教，所以我們會在3-3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點，而且我們要以能夠併網的時間為第一優先。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，這部分我的想法跟你很像，因為併網關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題，這是我剛才第一個建議。我的第二個建議裡面，我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例，我認為是可以降低的，但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目選擇的彈性其實可以拉大，如果我們可以把項目拉大的話，可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的國產項目，在選擇拉大的時候，它反而可以跳出來，甚至可以聚焦，讓它甚至未來有機會可以變成我們輸出發展的項目，可以把這個彈性給拉大。所以我兩個具體的建議，部長，你都同意吧？第一個，應該放入其他風險管理的指標，而且要具鑑別性；第二個，剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性，這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目跳出來，甚至被選擇，甚至讓它有市場，我們未來可以培植它，有機會它可以出去輸出，這兩個建議，院長、部長，你們同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃，應該就朝向類似這樣的目標在走，尤其3-3的部分，我們希望未來在臺灣風場建設到一定的程度之後，它必定要用這樣的基礎能力往國際去發展，所以培養它的國際競爭力是必要的。那麼3-2的部分，如果確實因為品質或者工期沒有辦法如期併網，或其他種種的因素，對國產化造成其他因素不能如期併網的話，我們是可以採取個案來處理的，而原則上，我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一階段、第二階段的努力，3-2階段如果有剛剛說的這種狀況，我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：是，所以部長，我想請問，針對這幾點我們提出建議，如果你剛才說同意的話，能不能在比方三個月時間裡面做一個我們選商規則上面的檢討，相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室，這可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長跟院長，我其實也想跟大家再接下來討論，我還剩一點時間，是想要討論關於小水力的問題。我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能，多元綠能裡面包括地熱，包括小水力，甚至包括生質能，都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外，其實需要大力發展的項目。過去兩三年的時間，我其實也協助滿多小水力項目去處理包括做他們環境影響的把關、生態影響的把關，但是我必須說目前我們小水力整個制度跟機制，還是有一些業者其實是有一些擔心的。其實小水力的優點滿多的，包括它可能有24小時穩定發電；它的維護成本低；環境衝擊小，有利於融入環境水域中；包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠。可是我剛才說到其實很多業者，包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友，他們都跟我們反映，我們目前在小水力制度裡面有一個問題，我們目前只設定了兩個躉購費率的差異點，一個是500kW，一個是2000kW，我們只設立了這兩個點，也就是我們費率只分三種費率。我們其實有很多的社區、公民電廠，或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的，其實都是在500kW以下，500kW以下坦白說，跟我們的費率相比起來，它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500kW以下來得高很多的。我們現在看到，實際上算起來，小於500kW的情況裡面，按照我們的躉購費率算起來，1kW大概19.4萬，可是實際做起來大概會到30萬到40萬之間，這個問題是出在我們的費率級距設計不夠細、不夠為各種不同的規模去設想。","所以在這邊，我想要先建議經濟部也好或行政院也好，如果我們真的要大力推動小水力，我們對於這個費率的級距應該要擴大，我說增加更多費率的級距，尤其是對於這種比較小型的，它可以結合我們很多農村的設施，包括跟我們農業的設施整合在一起的部分，這部分要提高，不然其實我們很多比較想做小型的業者，在費率這一關，他就直接做不下去了，這是我們看到第一件事情。部長，你覺得呢？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我會跟農業部來討論一下，就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的小水力。"],["洪委員申翰：但是費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊！"],["郭部長智輝：級距的部分，我想我們會來計算。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們來檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：是。因為我們之前看到，其實確實那時候有費率審議的委員說，因為小水力的計算比較方式樣態比較多，他們現在覺得案場其實不夠多，所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距，可是我覺得這是雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題，你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加，那就不會有小型的，案場就不會多，那回過頭來你又說我們不好去計算。所以這裡面凸顯第二個我想要講的事情，我想部長應該很清楚，我們之前大力發展光電、離岸風電、地熱，其實在經濟部內都有一個專業的幕僚團隊，我想部長應該很清楚，他可能是很多的法人在做支援的部分，不是只單靠我們的公務人員，這個專業的團隊，其實目前我們在小水力比較沒有看到。"],["郭部長智輝：確實如此。"],["洪委員申翰：這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系，其實對於小水力的國際最新發展，包括它有很多機組的形式，其實都相對陌生，所以它才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的、體貼的或者是合適的制度或費率的設計。這是我們之前看到的狀況，所以很多業者來跟我們說，他們覺得如果我們要發展小水力，就像之前光電、風電，包括現在地熱的發展的話，恐怕在經濟部內或行政院這邊應該要建立一個專業的幕僚團隊來專for小水力，甚至從這裡面發展出一個單一窗口，包括相關的模組化程序，其實才有助於小水力的發展，掌握最新的國際發展狀況。","就像我剛才說，我們是500K，目前500K的級距是最低的級距，日本他們其實也發展出200K以下的費率級距，其實他們就做的比我們成熟很多，所以部長，我這邊針對小水力的第二個建議是，是不是可以讓小水力也有一個專業的幕僚團隊，來提供像風電、光電、地熱這樣子的支持？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去在組織上面來增加。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，我們來檢討費率級距，以及來討論儘速設立單一窗口來服務這些……"],["洪委員申翰：是，尤其是要專業的幕僚團隊。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12位張嘉郡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}