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00:01:31,281\n你有加入啊?surpriseme我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔原來不是他們不願意提供\n\n4\n00:01:31,781 --> 00:01:31,961\n。（10月29日（。\n\n5\n00:01:55,487 --> 00:02:08,526\n打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:09,568 --> 00:02:29,537\n我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個\n\n7\n00:02:31,607 --> 00:02:48,637\n天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%\n\n8\n00:02:49,574 --> 00:03:10,842\n是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了\n\n9\n00:03:12,878 --> 00:03:31,252\n我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎\n\n10\n00:03:36,136 --> 00:03:56,470\n農業配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大約的算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五。但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問\n\n11\n00:03:59,012 --> 00:04:15,524\n臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撲補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?我\n\n12\n00:04:23,429 --> 00:04:37,260\n電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量\n\n13\n00:04:41,463 --> 00:05:01,740\n有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠臺灣廠區現在是最貴的院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?\n\n14\n00:05:07,305 --> 00:05:26,037\n第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣\n\n15\n00:05:26,817 --> 00:05:27,517\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n16\n00:05:43,326 --> 00:06:10,608\n我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子\n\n17\n00:06:11,169 --> 00:06:27,901\n所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?\n\n18\n00:06:30,243 --> 00:06:47,236\n你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差5至多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三\n\n19\n00:06:48,957 --> 00:07:16,052\n為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎\n\n20\n00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:33,285\n部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算撥補兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們發電的成本還是比較低的\n\n21\n00:07:47,970 --> 00:08:11,667\n昨天臺達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到\n\n22\n00:08:13,070 --> 00:08:41,800\n我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是院長我相信您也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢\n\n23\n00:08:42,915 --> 00:09:07,456\n在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼\n\n24\n00:09:08,197 --> 00:09:25,643\n後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎\n\n25\n00:09:26,863 --> 00:09:42,197\n謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的\n\n26\n00:09:43,118 --> 00:10:00,571\n再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少他的負擔院長我必須再次提醒您喔核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人\n\n27\n00:10:03,516 --> 00:10:18,205\n對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊\n\n28\n00:10:19,125 --> 00:10:38,718\nSMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦\n\n29\n00:10:43,621 --> 00:10:58,569\n如果這方面研究有報告出來麻煩提供本席一份好嗎因為這事關著臺灣的未來我們經濟會不會受影響會不會開始衰退我們人民的生活會不會受影響影響非常的大\n\n30\n00:10:59,469 --> 00:11:23,308\n是報告委員我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電啦你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年欸這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長\n\n31\n00:11:30,094 --> 00:11:36,021\n部長請請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚\n\n32\n00:11:39,807 --> 00:12:04,695\n我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的\n\n33\n00:12:05,987 --> 00:12:32,146\n外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎\n\n34\n00:12:33,067 --> 00:12:45,596\n我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其仲局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎\n\n35\n00:12:48,015 --> 00:13:09,465\n我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告\n\n36\n00:13:10,779 --> 00:13:10,959\n報告委員\n\n37\n00:13:20,376 --> 00:13:40,090\n行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎\n\n38\n00:13:43,995 --> 00:14:04,991\n這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?\n\n39\n00:14:07,554 --> 00:14:08,095\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德\n\n40\n00:14:26,862 --> 00:14:51,238\n這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理\n\n41\n00:14:52,113 --> 00:14:52,393\n政府主動出來\n\n42\n00:15:24,915 --> 00:15:25,076\n謝謝張家俊\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4537\t7999\t院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢卓院長好那今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電遇到用電高峰呢他就會關掉民眾的家電院長您知道這個計畫嗎\n33311\t36613\t請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎?有沒有在座的各位我們的部會首長們有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎?可以舉手嗎?\n62674\t91281\t你有加入啊?surprise me我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔原來不是他們不願意提供\n91781\t91961\t。（10月29日（。\n115487\t128526\t打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼\n129568\t149537\t我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個\n151607\t168637\t天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%\n169574\t190842\t是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了\n192878\t211252\t我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎\n216136\t236470\t農業配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大約的算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五。但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問\n239012\t255524\t臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撲補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?我\n263429\t277260\t電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量\n281463\t301740\t有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠臺灣廠區現在是最貴的院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?\n307305\t326037\t第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣\n326817\t327517\t二、行政院院長提出\n343326\t370608\t我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子\n371169\t387901\t所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?\n390243\t407236\t你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差5至多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三\n408957\t436052\t為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎\n436940\t453285\t部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算撥補兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們發電的成本還是比較低的\n467970\t491667\t昨天臺達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到\n493070\t521800\t我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是 院長我相信您也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢\n522915\t547456\t在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼\n548197\t565643\t後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎\n566863\t582197\t謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的\n583118\t600571\t再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少他的負擔院長我必須再次提醒您喔核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人\n603516\t618205\t對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊\n619125\t638718\tSMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦\n643621\t658569\t如果這方面研究有報告出來麻煩提供本席一份好嗎因為這事關著臺灣的未來我們經濟會不會受影響會不會開始衰退我們人民的生活會不會受影響影響非常的大\n659469\t683308\t是 報告委員 我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電啦你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年欸這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長\n690094\t696021\t部長請請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚\n699807\t724695\t我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的\n725987\t752146\t外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎\n753067\t765596\t我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其仲局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎\n768015\t789465\t我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告\n790779\t790959\t報告委員\n800376\t820090\t行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎\n823995\t844991\t這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?\n847554\t848095\t三、行政院院長提出賴清德\n866862\t891238\t這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理\n892113\t892393\t政府主動出來\n924915\t925076\t謝謝張家俊\n","txt":"院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢卓院長好那今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電遇到用電高峰呢他就會關掉民眾的家電院長您知道這個計畫嗎\n請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎?有沒有在座的各位我們的部會首長們有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎?可以舉手嗎?\n你有加入啊?surprise me我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔原來不是他們不願意提供\n。（10月29日（。\n打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼\n我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個\n天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%\n是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了\n我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎\n農業配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大約的算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五。但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問\n臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撲補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?我\n電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量\n有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠臺灣廠區現在是最貴的院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?\n第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣\n二、行政院院長提出\n我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子\n所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?\n你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差5至多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三\n為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎\n部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算撥補兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們發電的成本還是比較低的\n昨天臺達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到\n我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是 院長我相信您也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢\n在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼\n後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎\n謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的\n再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少他的負擔院長我必須再次提醒您喔核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人\n對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊\nSMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦\n如果這方面研究有報告出來麻煩提供本席一份好嗎因為這事關著臺灣的未來我們經濟會不會受影響會不會開始衰退我們人民的生活會不會受影響影響非常的大\n是 報告委員 我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電啦你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年欸這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長\n部長請請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚\n我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的\n外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎\n我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其仲局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎\n我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告\n報告委員\n行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎\n這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德\n這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理\n政府主動出來\n謝謝張家俊\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.537 --> 00:07.999\n院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢卓院長好那今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電遇到用電高峰呢他就會關掉民眾的家電院長您知道這個計畫嗎\n\n00:33.311 --> 00:36.613\n請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎?有沒有在座的各位我們的部會首長們有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎?可以舉手嗎?\n\n01:02.674 --> 01:31.281\n你有加入啊?surpriseme我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔原來不是他們不願意提供\n\n01:31.781 --> 01:31.961\n。（10月29日（。\n\n01:55.487 --> 02:08.526\n打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼\n\n02:09.568 --> 02:29.537\n我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個\n\n02:31.607 --> 02:48.637\n天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%\n\n02:49.574 --> 03:10.842\n是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了\n\n03:12.878 --> 03:31.252\n我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎\n\n03:36.136 --> 03:56.470\n農業配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大約的算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五。但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問\n\n03:59.012 --> 04:15.524\n臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撲補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?我\n\n04:23.429 --> 04:37.260\n電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量\n\n04:41.463 --> 05:01.740\n有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠臺灣廠區現在是最貴的院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?\n\n05:07.305 --> 05:26.037\n第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣\n\n05:26.817 --> 05:27.517\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n05:43.326 --> 06:10.608\n我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子\n\n06:11.169 --> 06:27.901\n所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?\n\n06:30.243 --> 06:47.236\n你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差5至多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三\n\n06:48.957 --> 07:16.052\n為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎\n\n07:16.940 --> 07:33.285\n部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算撥補兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們發電的成本還是比較低的\n\n07:47.970 --> 08:11.667\n昨天臺達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到\n\n08:13.070 --> 08:41.800\n我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是院長我相信您也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢\n\n08:42.915 --> 09:07.456\n在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼\n\n09:08.197 --> 09:25.643\n後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎\n\n09:26.863 --> 09:42.197\n謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的\n\n09:43.118 --> 10:00.571\n再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少他的負擔院長我必須再次提醒您喔核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人\n\n10:03.516 --> 10:18.205\n對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊\n\n10:19.125 --> 10:38.718\nSMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦\n\n10:43.621 --> 10:58.569\n如果這方面研究有報告出來麻煩提供本席一份好嗎因為這事關著臺灣的未來我們經濟會不會受影響會不會開始衰退我們人民的生活會不會受影響影響非常的大\n\n10:59.469 --> 11:23.308\n是報告委員我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電啦你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年欸這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長\n\n11:30.094 --> 11:36.021\n部長請請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚\n\n11:39.807 --> 12:04.695\n我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的\n\n12:05.987 --> 12:32.146\n外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎\n\n12:33.067 --> 12:45.596\n我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其仲局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎\n\n12:48.015 --> 13:09.465\n我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告\n\n13:10.779 --> 13:10.959\n報告委員\n\n13:20.376 --> 13:40.090\n行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎\n\n13:43.995 --> 14:04.991\n這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?\n\n14:07.554 --> 14:08.095\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德\n\n14:26.862 --> 14:51.238\n這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理\n\n14:52.113 --> 14:52.393\n政府主動出來\n\n15:24.915 --> 15:25.076\n謝謝張家俊\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.537,"end":7.999,"text":"院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢卓院長好那今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電遇到用電高峰呢他就會關掉民眾的家電院長您知道這個計畫嗎"},{"start":33.311,"end":36.613,"text":"請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎?有沒有在座的各位我們的部會首長們有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎?可以舉手嗎?"},{"start":62.674,"end":91.281,"text":"你有加入啊?surprise me我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔原來不是他們不願意提供"},{"start":91.781,"end":91.961,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":115.487,"end":128.526,"text":"打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼"},{"start":129.568,"end":149.537,"text":"我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個"},{"start":151.607,"end":168.637,"text":"天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%"},{"start":169.574,"end":190.842,"text":"是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了"},{"start":192.878,"end":211.252,"text":"我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎"},{"start":216.136,"end":236.47,"text":"農業配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大約的算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五。但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問"},{"start":239.012,"end":255.524,"text":"臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撲補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?我"},{"start":263.429,"end":277.26,"text":"電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量"},{"start":281.463,"end":301.74,"text":"有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠臺灣廠區現在是最貴的院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?"},{"start":307.305,"end":326.037,"text":"第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣"},{"start":326.817,"end":327.517,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":343.326,"end":370.608,"text":"我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子"},{"start":371.169,"end":387.901,"text":"所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?"},{"start":390.243,"end":407.236,"text":"你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差5至多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三"},{"start":408.957,"end":436.052,"text":"為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎"},{"start":436.94,"end":453.285,"text":"部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算撥補兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們發電的成本還是比較低的"},{"start":467.97,"end":491.667,"text":"昨天臺達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到"},{"start":493.07,"end":521.8,"text":"我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是 院長我相信您也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢"},{"start":522.915,"end":547.456,"text":"在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼"},{"start":548.197,"end":565.643,"text":"後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎"},{"start":566.863,"end":582.197,"text":"謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的"},{"start":583.118,"end":600.571,"text":"再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少他的負擔院長我必須再次提醒您喔核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人"},{"start":603.516,"end":618.205,"text":"對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊"},{"start":619.125,"end":638.718,"text":"SMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦"},{"start":643.621,"end":658.569,"text":"如果這方面研究有報告出來麻煩提供本席一份好嗎因為這事關著臺灣的未來我們經濟會不會受影響會不會開始衰退我們人民的生活會不會受影響影響非常的大"},{"start":659.469,"end":683.308,"text":"是 報告委員 我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電啦你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年欸這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長"},{"start":690.094,"end":696.021,"text":"部長請請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚"},{"start":699.807,"end":724.695,"text":"我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的"},{"start":725.987,"end":752.146,"text":"外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎"},{"start":753.067,"end":765.596,"text":"我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其仲局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎"},{"start":768.015,"end":789.465,"text":"我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告"},{"start":790.779,"end":790.959,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":800.376,"end":820.09,"text":"行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎"},{"start":823.995,"end":844.991,"text":"這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?"},{"start":847.554,"end":848.095,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德"},{"start":866.862,"end":891.238,"text":"這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理"},{"start":892.113,"end":892.393,"text":"政府主動出來"},{"start":924.915,"end":925.076,"text":"謝謝張家俊"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":99,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（15時2分）院長，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長好。今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫，這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電，遇到用電高峰，它就會關掉民眾的家電，院長，您知道這個計畫嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說的是住商節電的設施嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：不是，是遠端斷電計畫，很明顯應該是官邸沒有加入，但是您自宅有申請加入嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：那請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎？有沒有在座的各位我們的部會首長們，有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎？可以舉手嗎？你有加入啊！Surprise me！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我聽過。"],["張委員嘉郡：你聽過？我真不意外沒有人加入。本席上週跟台電索取這個自願斷電計畫的執行成效，一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供，一直到我告訴他們說，假設你們沒辦法提供，我就要直接問院長了，他們才迅速的把它送來，結果我發現原來不是他們不願意提供，是因為計畫的成效太差了，本來目標是說希望可以號召2萬戶，節省64萬度的電，目標很豐滿，結果現實很骨感，大概只有2%的完成率，所以本席想要提醒一下，台電與其在這裡打民眾家電的主意，不如好好想一想能源配比到底要怎麼調整。","我接下來也再請問一下部長，目前我們臺灣的能源配比目標是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把綠能占30%，然後火……"],["張委員嘉郡：本來明年的目標呢？院長，你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：原來我們在第一次能源轉型，我們希望是天然氣用50%、煤用30%、綠能用20%，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：有可能達成嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在2030年我們是希望天然氣能夠維持50%，但是綠能、再生能源要加大到30%，把煤降到20%。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是本席非常擔憂的，因為本來說是明年要達成，但是非常明顯地，已經告訴我們沒有辦法達成目標，已經跳票了。現在社會上關心的已經不是目前你們的能源配比會不會達標，大家關心的是就算你達標了，我們的供電穩不穩定，我們的電費能不能調降，還是會再調漲，還要再多花多少錢。大家都知道天然氣、再生能源都比核能貴那麼多，還要再用預算補助嗎？要再補幾千億呢？這個你們有考慮過嗎？請問院長，你有考慮過調整能源配比的目標嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：能源配比是這樣，我們是希望再生能源能夠在2030年達到30%，大略地算起來，我們在2026年會達成一半，亦即14.5%，到2028年會達到百分之十八點多，到2030年……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你有算過為了達標，我們要付多少成本嗎？我想要請問一下院長，你知道台電現在帳面上，到這個月為止虧損多少錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們目前的財務虧損應該是達到4,200億左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：差不多，4,200億。如果按照您現在預計的，今年1,000億、明年1,000億，撥補了2,000億，我們等於還有2,200億的缺口，這個部分打算怎麼做？是繼續漲電價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價今年調整兩次，尤其是第二次，我們調漲的範圍非常小，但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點，我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊，但以穩定民生為優先，未來電價審議委員會應該也會朝這樣的原則去考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：有關電價的問題，台積電法說會上上週召開，台積電說臺灣的電價在這3年漲了4次，如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍。台積電還說，相比美國的亞利桑那廠、日本的熊本廠，臺灣的廠區現在是最貴的。院長，您覺得這會不會影響臺灣的競爭力？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們在反映成本的這個原則底下，目前的調幅只是略略較成本超過一點點，這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施。至於台積電在國外廠區所用任何的電，因為電的來源不一樣，剛剛部長也說過了，在……"],["張委員嘉郡：「電的來源不一樣」，你就講到重點了，明顯你也知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：用水力發電當然會比較便宜。"],["張委員嘉郡：你也明顯知道核能比較便宜，為什麼我們不用核能？"],["卓院長榮泰：它是用水力發電所以比較便宜。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我想您是一個認真做事的人，而且我看你也不是很在乎官位。以前撥補的政策，你本來說「不能撥補」，之後又調整說「可以接受撥補」，那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改？既然你都有辭官的guts，為什麼不把這份魄力用在努力為臺灣爭取核能呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是行政院經濟部的部長，也是團隊的一份子，這是……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取？這不是你的初衷嗎？應該要義無反顧地去爭取核能延役呀！"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有在關注新的科技能源……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個等一下，我就跟你說，你是要跟我講SMR，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：你要跟我講SMR，我就跟你講。SMR產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還多5至30倍，假設我們可以接受SMR，為什麼我們不能重啟傳統的核二、核三？"],["郭部長智輝：您剛才的這個命題，我想院長從過去到現在一直都在講，我們對核能的關注就是，第一個它是大家有共識，第二個核廢料可以處理，第三個它是安全的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，所以我不曉得……假設部長極力地跟院長爭取，他覺得臺灣如果產業要繼續發展，我們還要支持AI產業，必須重啟核能，您會聽下去嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長現在跟我們在努力的是，要如何發展多元的綠能，在這個前提、命題之下，到2030年前，我們是……"],["張委員嘉郡：問題是綠能很貴啊！天然氣也很貴啊！台電就算撥補了2,000億，還虧2,200億，未來怎麼辦呢？我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：到2030年之前，從我們的供電計畫來看，還是可以穩定地供電，至於發電成本，現在這種結構，我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們可以繼續承受的了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們發電的成本還是比較低的。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席引用一下昨天台達電的創辦人鄭崇華，他剛剛得了李國鼎獎，獲獎之後他就說，全世界都知道核電最經濟、最安全，他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府，如果當初做了錯的決定，朝令夕改未嘗不可，企業的喊話其實不只這一例，我不曉得院長有沒有聽到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的資料上顯示，我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到，而且是具體的。"],["張委員嘉郡：而且呢……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型，還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，院長，我相信您也很努力，但是本席想要提的另外一個問題，跟錢就沒有關係。現在核三廠的2號機在歲修，41天的歲修，實際上，我們臺灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標，但是在沒有光電的凌晨，火力發電占比高達98%，與其稱現在是非核家園，本席認為現在應該叫我們臺灣「火力家園」，這八年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多，導致我們火力發電要補300億度電，然後碳排大大的增加，後果是什麼？後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康，用肺發電。前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次，真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅，這個是完全不同層次的問題，難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問，我們跟他說，清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字，沒有錯，但是在10月22號當天，我們所看到的再生能源已經達到16%的發電。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，我只問你說，你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有犧牲。"],["張委員嘉郡：值得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少它的負擔，怎麼會是犧牲？"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，我必須再次提醒您，核電不是敵人，暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我說過，核電本身是中性的，但是它的成本要計算未來核後端、核廢料的處理，那個是一個隱形的成本，現在無法計算，你怎麼計算它？"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你們都願意支持SMR啦，SMR的核廢料產出是5倍至30倍，你們都願意討論，為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術，是我們對所有新開發的核能技術都願意開放，並不是特定支持哪一樣……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎？經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有其他方面的研究。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果這方面研究有報告出來，麻煩提供本席一份好嗎？因為這事關著臺灣的未來，我們經濟會不會受影響，會不會開始衰退。我們人民的生活會不會受影響？影響非常的大。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急，現在我們為什麼極端的拉綠能，是因為RE100的關係，它在2030年要求……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是在你拉綠能的過程，我們民眾都用肺在發電啦，你要等多久才能達到你的目標，你知道嗎？2030年就等於還要等五年、六年耶，這五年、六年要犧牲多少人民的健康？","我接下來想要問農業部部長。部長，請問一下，部長昨天被傳喚，您是用什麼身分被傳喚？"],["陳部長駿季：我早上已經說了，因為有人告我，所以是以被告的身分被傳喚。"],["張委員嘉郡：真的是有人告你嗎？據我所知，這是農業部自己移交檢調，檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告，這跟一般有人去案鈴申告是兩回事的被告。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是兩回事情，但是在去年8、9月的時候就有不少外界議員的部分來提告。"],["張委員嘉郡：我先請問您，昨天您被約詢了多久？"],["陳部長駿季：應該有將近三個小時吧！"],["張委員嘉郡：將近三個小時，請問部長，今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的，如果都合法，為什麼會有人需要交保，也被監察院糾正？您在被約談的時候，還是堅持全部合法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：整個採購程序是合法的，但是有行政瑕疵，這個我之前就講過了，監察院也做了糾正，但是裡面的……"],["張委員嘉郡：陳吉仲主委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個過程符合我們公務的遊戲規則在走，至於廠商之間的一些問題，行政單位不可能調查的部分，我們才請檢調單位來調查。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是我想要問院長的，一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告，難道不需要停職嗎？這個情節是相當重大的，院長，您覺得不需要停職嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行政、政務官員無論用什麼身分去因應到司法調查，我們所著重的是，司法調查能夠清楚地告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任。部長說的……"],["張委員嘉郡：難道身為部長不會……"],["卓院長榮泰：曾經有人告他，所以他是被告的身分，或是檢察官……"],["張委員嘉郡：不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我想部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的制度，我會要求，我已經這麼要求……"],["張委員嘉郡：難道檢察官是隨便辦案，隨便把他列為被告嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我也會當場要求部長要全力配合司法調查，對於我們部內所有過去……"],["張委員嘉郡：就算他不是共犯，難道都沒有行政責任嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：相關的任何資料，都要完整的保護。"],["張委員嘉郡：這麼大的一個案件，身為副主委、主委都不知道，一個科員可以主張幾億的案件，然後簽約跟履約的公司都不一樣，這個院長有辦法接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：超思蛋的問題，從去年一直發展到今年年中，都有經過行政院或政府內部的調查，520之後，我們曾經看到這樣的調查，但我們沒有啟動新的調查程序，所以目前階段還是在原來跟外界報告的過程裡面。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席再問院長，假設陳部長不幸被起訴，需不需要停職？"],["卓院長榮泰：那我就依法辦理。"],["張委員嘉郡：就依法辦理停職，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果政府官員被起訴，而內容是社會相當矚目的案件，我們當然必須依法辦理。"],["張委員嘉郡：這是全國重大的議題，雖然現在一再的推給所謂的偵查不公開等等，但全世界都在看，有哪一個民主國家面對這麼大的醜聞、弊案而不出來說明的？買雞蛋用的是人民的錢，人民應該有知的權利，政府也應該主動出來說明，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝張嘉郡委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長備詢。","接下來請登記第13位鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}