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\"text\": \"我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收對我們來講都還是一個比較但是陸特丹在做了對陸特丹在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長跟我說臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦臺灣喔\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 726.721, \"end\": 726.921, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 726.921, \"end\": 727.021, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 727.021, \"end\": 727.241, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 727.241, \"end\": 727.361, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 727.361, \"end\": 727.761, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 727.761, \"end\": 728.482, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 728.482, \"end\": 728.962, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 728.962, \"end\": 729.182, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 729.182, \"end\": 729.302, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 729.302, \"end\": 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\"個\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,864 --> 00:00:19,420\n主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、在場的媒體記者女士先生我們有請我們卓院長、還有劉竹偉、郭部長、以及陳部長麻煩再請卓院長陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長\n\n2\n00:00:28,246 --> 00:00:55,625\n總委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案在此之前這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我質詢院長的時候我有提到一個台南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案\n\n3\n00:00:56,550 --> 00:01:19,308\n就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為\n\n4\n00:01:21,653 --> 00:01:46,007\n路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來\n\n5\n00:01:46,991 --> 00:02:11,233\n第二,要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看,儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是一無反顧地繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能,你同不同意?交通先行,發展社區,這應該是一個非常正確的方向\n\n6\n00:02:12,935 --> 00:02:13,976\n投入比較多的建設資金\n\n7\n00:02:32,078 --> 00:02:53,528\n藍煤有6座,核電有3個機組,記住這個12、6跟3,目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近4乘4,藍煤的占3乘4,我有注意到他們成本差不多都3毛5,3塊5,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了3000多億去買天然氣,2000多億去買煤炭,國務長大概是這個意思。\n\n8\n00:02:55,467 --> 00:03:21,600\n但是我們看核電他目前我們看到的他大概三個機組佔我們佔了7%那大概要用掉200多億那我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應另外核電廠後續的核燃料棒這些維運那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡\n\n9\n00:03:23,615 --> 00:03:38,485\n我們在這個外面的後市成本沒有計算對那個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣\n\n10\n00:03:39,246 --> 00:03:53,252\n好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴\n\n11\n00:03:58,018 --> 00:03:58,038\n韓國瑜\n\n12\n00:04:25,067 --> 00:04:25,888\n發展新的能源綠燈蟑螂\n\n13\n00:04:46,798 --> 00:04:59,753\n確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪\n\n14\n00:05:06,209 --> 00:05:08,409\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。三\n\n15\n00:05:30,868 --> 00:05:59,608\n院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯\n\n16\n00:06:01,598 --> 00:06:01,718\n主席\n\n17\n00:06:17,652 --> 00:06:32,922\n現在的農電政策、農電共生供在不利耕地的建設之上,請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎?請問部長。跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘裕?\n\n18\n00:06:35,303 --> 00:06:54,961\n現在目前整個我們漁電工生跟不利更多區裡面使用大概只有只佔的百分之十還有百分之九十的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間好有人說有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎謝謝陳部長請回\n\n19\n00:07:01,766 --> 00:07:03,006\n如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產?請責成陳部長確實把握。\n\n20\n00:07:23,786 --> 00:07:36,998\n我們第一個優先就是農業優先是的第二個因為未來的我們的能源的使用發電裝置越來越多而且很分散如何管理避免弊端各位責任經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢\n\n21\n00:07:38,933 --> 00:07:41,195\n發展AI一定要用SM嗎?\n\n22\n00:08:01,873 --> 00:08:29,005\n除了規達這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?\n\n23\n00:08:29,833 --> 00:08:54,908\n這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電\n\n24\n00:09:02,490 --> 00:09:22,880\n國際企業要不要加入RE100?國際企業要嗎?他的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛但是有一些巨擘啊他在他自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100對他除了自己不需要RE100之外他的供應鏈需要RE100的他們就不能用什麼那請問一下核電算是綠電嗎?\n\n25\n00:09:24,443 --> 00:09:43,884\n河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件台灣沒有不用綠電的條件院長是不是同意?台灣沒有放核電、核廢料的條件台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件\n\n26\n00:09:46,344 --> 00:10:10,620\n這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來台灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的\n\n27\n00:10:12,046 --> 00:10:39,436\n隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎\n\n28\n00:10:40,780 --> 00:11:02,476\n新加坡他們也是多元綠能啦這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網路好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢\n\n29\n00:11:03,055 --> 00:11:25,821\n那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍的設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁\n\n30\n00:11:30,936 --> 00:11:36,328\n沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究\n\n31\n00:11:37,742 --> 00:12:06,241\n河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎\n\n32\n00:12:06,721 --> 00:12:27,368\n我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收對我們來講都還是一個比較但是陸特丹在做了對陸特丹在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長跟我說臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦臺灣喔\n\n33\n00:12:31,770 --> 00:12:54,471\n光電、風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成濾清再去變成濾安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的濾...臺灣的濾電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的濾安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣欸...完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入濾能的條件\n\n34\n00:13:03,038 --> 00:13:18,327\n我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多\n\n35\n00:13:18,607 --> 00:13:35,223\n好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,\n\n36\n00:13:36,024 --> 00:13:54,409\n包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以只用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?\n\n37\n00:13:54,409 --> 00:13:55,069\n劉主委你覺得呢?\n\n38\n00:13:56,465 --> 00:14:12,687\n我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力\n\n39\n00:14:13,027 --> 00:14:13,047\n韓國瑜議員\n\n40\n00:14:32,737 --> 00:14:59,771\n我也跟委員報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了\n\n41\n00:15:00,211 --> 00:15:02,332\n臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?\n\n42\n00:15:17,708 --> 00:15:32,410\n報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後實驗到我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4864\t19420\t主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、在場的媒體記者女士先生我們有請我們卓院長、還有劉竹偉、郭部長、以及陳部長麻煩再請卓院長陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長\n28246\t55625\t總委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案在此之前這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我質詢院長的時候我有提到一個台南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案\n56550\t79308\t就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為\n81653\t106007\t路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來\n106991\t131233\t第二,要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看,儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是一無反顧地繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能,你同不同意?交通先行,發展社區,這應該是一個非常正確的方向\n132935\t133976\t投入比較多的建設資金\n152078\t173528\t藍煤有6座,核電有3個機組,記住這個12、6跟3,目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近4乘4,藍煤的占3乘4,我有注意到他們成本差不多都3毛5,3塊5,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了3000多億去買天然氣,2000多億去買煤炭,國務長大概是這個意思。\n175467\t201600\t但是我們看核電他目前我們看到的他大概三個機組佔我們佔了7%那大概要用掉200多億那我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應另外核電廠後續的核燃料棒這些維運那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡\n203615\t218485\t我們在這個外面的後市成本沒有計算對那個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣\n219246\t233252\t好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴\n238018\t238038\t韓國瑜\n265067\t265888\t發展新的能源綠燈蟑螂\n286798\t299753\t確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪\n306209\t308409\t三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三\n330868\t359608\t院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯\n361598\t361718\t主席\n377652\t392922\t現在的農電政策、農電共生供在不利耕地的建設之上,請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎?請問部長。跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘裕?\n395303\t414961\t現在目前整個我們漁電工生跟不利更多區裡面使用大概只有只佔的百分之十還有百分之九十的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間好有人說有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎謝謝陳部長請回\n421766\t423006\t如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產?請責成陳部長確實把握。\n443786\t456998\t我們第一個優先就是農業優先是的第二個因為未來的我們的能源的使用發電裝置越來越多而且很分散如何管理避免弊端各位責任經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢\n458933\t461195\t發展AI一定要用SM嗎?\n481873\t509005\t除了規達這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?\n509833\t534908\t這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電\n542490\t562880\t國際企業要不要加入RE100?國際企業要嗎?他的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛但是有一些巨擘啊他在他自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100對他除了自己不需要RE100之外他的供應鏈需要RE100的他們就不能用什麼那請問一下核電算是綠電嗎?\n564443\t583884\t河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件台灣沒有不用綠電的條件院長是不是同意?台灣沒有放核電、核廢料的條件台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件\n586344\t610620\t這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來台灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的\n612046\t639436\t隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎\n640780\t662476\t新加坡他們也是多元綠能啦這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網路好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢\n663055\t685821\t那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍的設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁\n690936\t696328\t沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究\n697742\t726241\t河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎\n726721\t747368\t我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收對我們來講都還是一個比較但是陸特丹在做了對陸特丹在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長跟我說臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦臺灣喔\n751770\t774471\t光電、風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成濾清再去變成濾安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的濾...臺灣的濾電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的濾安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣欸...完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入濾能的條件\n783038\t798327\t我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多\n798607\t815223\t好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,\n816024\t834409\t包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以只用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?\n834409\t835069\t劉主委你覺得呢?\n836465\t852687\t我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力\n853027\t853047\t韓國瑜議員\n872737\t899771\t我也跟委員報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了\n900211\t902332\t臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?\n917708\t932410\t報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後實驗到我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點\n","txt":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、在場的媒體記者女士先生我們有請我們卓院長、還有劉竹偉、郭部長、以及陳部長麻煩再請卓院長陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長\n總委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案在此之前這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我質詢院長的時候我有提到一個台南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案\n就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為\n路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來\n第二,要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看,儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是一無反顧地繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能,你同不同意?交通先行,發展社區,這應該是一個非常正確的方向\n投入比較多的建設資金\n藍煤有6座,核電有3個機組,記住這個12、6跟3,目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近4乘4,藍煤的占3乘4,我有注意到他們成本差不多都3毛5,3塊5,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了3000多億去買天然氣,2000多億去買煤炭,國務長大概是這個意思。\n但是我們看核電他目前我們看到的他大概三個機組佔我們佔了7%那大概要用掉200多億那我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應另外核電廠後續的核燃料棒這些維運那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡\n我們在這個外面的後市成本沒有計算對那個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣\n好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴\n韓國瑜\n發展新的能源綠燈蟑螂\n確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三\n院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯\n主席\n現在的農電政策、農電共生供在不利耕地的建設之上,請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎?請問部長。跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘裕?\n現在目前整個我們漁電工生跟不利更多區裡面使用大概只有只佔的百分之十還有百分之九十的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間好有人說有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎謝謝陳部長請回\n如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產?請責成陳部長確實把握。\n我們第一個優先就是農業優先是的第二個因為未來的我們的能源的使用發電裝置越來越多而且很分散如何管理避免弊端各位責任經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢\n發展AI一定要用SM嗎?\n除了規達這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?\n這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電\n國際企業要不要加入RE100?國際企業要嗎?他的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛但是有一些巨擘啊他在他自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100對他除了自己不需要RE100之外他的供應鏈需要RE100的他們就不能用什麼那請問一下核電算是綠電嗎?\n河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件台灣沒有不用綠電的條件院長是不是同意?台灣沒有放核電、核廢料的條件台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件\n這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來台灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的\n隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎\n新加坡他們也是多元綠能啦這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網路好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢\n那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍的設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁\n沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究\n河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎\n我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收對我們來講都還是一個比較但是陸特丹在做了對陸特丹在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長跟我說臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦臺灣喔\n光電、風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成濾清再去變成濾安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的濾...臺灣的濾電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的濾安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣欸...完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入濾能的條件\n我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多\n好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,\n包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以只用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?\n劉主委你覺得呢?\n我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力\n韓國瑜議員\n我也跟委員報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了\n臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?\n報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後實驗到我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.864 --> 00:19.420\n主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、在場的媒體記者女士先生我們有請我們卓院長、還有劉竹偉、郭部長、以及陳部長麻煩再請卓院長陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長\n\n00:28.246 --> 00:55.625\n總委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案在此之前這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我質詢院長的時候我有提到一個台南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案\n\n00:56.550 --> 01:19.308\n就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為\n\n01:21.653 --> 01:46.007\n路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來\n\n01:46.991 --> 02:11.233\n第二,要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看,儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是一無反顧地繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能,你同不同意?交通先行,發展社區,這應該是一個非常正確的方向\n\n02:12.935 --> 02:13.976\n投入比較多的建設資金\n\n02:32.078 --> 02:53.528\n藍煤有6座,核電有3個機組,記住這個12、6跟3,目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近4乘4,藍煤的占3乘4,我有注意到他們成本差不多都3毛5,3塊5,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了3000多億去買天然氣,2000多億去買煤炭,國務長大概是這個意思。\n\n02:55.467 --> 03:21.600\n但是我們看核電他目前我們看到的他大概三個機組佔我們佔了7%那大概要用掉200多億那我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應另外核電廠後續的核燃料棒這些維運那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡\n\n03:23.615 --> 03:38.485\n我們在這個外面的後市成本沒有計算對那個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣\n\n03:39.246 --> 03:53.252\n好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴\n\n03:58.018 --> 03:58.038\n韓國瑜\n\n04:25.067 --> 04:25.888\n發展新的能源綠燈蟑螂\n\n04:46.798 --> 04:59.753\n確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪\n\n05:06.209 --> 05:08.409\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。三\n\n05:30.868 --> 05:59.608\n院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯\n\n06:01.598 --> 06:01.718\n主席\n\n06:17.652 --> 06:32.922\n現在的農電政策、農電共生供在不利耕地的建設之上,請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎?請問部長。跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘裕?\n\n06:35.303 --> 06:54.961\n現在目前整個我們漁電工生跟不利更多區裡面使用大概只有只佔的百分之十還有百分之九十的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間好有人說有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎謝謝陳部長請回\n\n07:01.766 --> 07:03.006\n如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產?請責成陳部長確實把握。\n\n07:23.786 --> 07:36.998\n我們第一個優先就是農業優先是的第二個因為未來的我們的能源的使用發電裝置越來越多而且很分散如何管理避免弊端各位責任經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢\n\n07:38.933 --> 07:41.195\n發展AI一定要用SM嗎?\n\n08:01.873 --> 08:29.005\n除了規達這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?\n\n08:29.833 --> 08:54.908\n這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電\n\n09:02.490 --> 09:22.880\n國際企業要不要加入RE100?國際企業要嗎?他的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛但是有一些巨擘啊他在他自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100對他除了自己不需要RE100之外他的供應鏈需要RE100的他們就不能用什麼那請問一下核電算是綠電嗎?\n\n09:24.443 --> 09:43.884\n河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件台灣沒有不用綠電的條件院長是不是同意?台灣沒有放核電、核廢料的條件台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件\n\n09:46.344 --> 10:10.620\n這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來台灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的\n\n10:12.046 --> 10:39.436\n隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎\n\n10:40.780 --> 11:02.476\n新加坡他們也是多元綠能啦這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網路好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢\n\n11:03.055 --> 11:25.821\n那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍的設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁\n\n11:30.936 --> 11:36.328\n沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究\n\n11:37.742 --> 12:06.241\n河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎\n\n12:06.721 --> 12:27.368\n我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收對我們來講都還是一個比較但是陸特丹在做了對陸特丹在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長跟我說臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦臺灣喔\n\n12:31.770 --> 12:54.471\n光電、風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成濾清再去變成濾安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的濾...臺灣的濾電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的濾安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣欸...完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入濾能的條件\n\n13:03.038 --> 13:18.327\n我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多\n\n13:18.607 --> 13:35.223\n好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,\n\n13:36.024 --> 13:54.409\n包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以只用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?\n\n13:54.409 --> 13:55.069\n劉主委你覺得呢?\n\n13:56.465 --> 14:12.687\n我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力\n\n14:13.027 --> 14:13.047\n韓國瑜議員\n\n14:32.737 --> 14:59.771\n我也跟委員報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了\n\n15:00.211 --> 15:02.332\n臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?\n\n15:17.708 --> 15:32.410\n報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後實驗到我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.864,"end":19.42,"text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、在場的媒體記者女士先生我們有請我們卓院長、還有劉竹偉、郭部長、以及陳部長麻煩再請卓院長陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長"},{"start":28.246,"end":55.625,"text":"總委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案在此之前這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我質詢院長的時候我有提到一個台南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案"},{"start":56.55,"end":79.308,"text":"就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為"},{"start":81.653,"end":106.007,"text":"路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來"},{"start":106.991,"end":131.233,"text":"第二,要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看,儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是一無反顧地繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能,你同不同意?交通先行,發展社區,這應該是一個非常正確的方向"},{"start":132.935,"end":133.976,"text":"投入比較多的建設資金"},{"start":152.078,"end":173.528,"text":"藍煤有6座,核電有3個機組,記住這個12、6跟3,目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近4乘4,藍煤的占3乘4,我有注意到他們成本差不多都3毛5,3塊5,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了3000多億去買天然氣,2000多億去買煤炭,國務長大概是這個意思。"},{"start":175.467,"end":201.6,"text":"但是我們看核電他目前我們看到的他大概三個機組佔我們佔了7%那大概要用掉200多億那我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應另外核電廠後續的核燃料棒這些維運那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡"},{"start":203.615,"end":218.485,"text":"我們在這個外面的後市成本沒有計算對那個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣"},{"start":219.246,"end":233.252,"text":"好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴"},{"start":238.018,"end":238.038,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":265.067,"end":265.888,"text":"發展新的能源綠燈蟑螂"},{"start":286.798,"end":299.753,"text":"確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪"},{"start":306.209,"end":308.409,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":330.868,"end":359.608,"text":"院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯"},{"start":361.598,"end":361.718,"text":"主席"},{"start":377.652,"end":392.922,"text":"現在的農電政策、農電共生供在不利耕地的建設之上,請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎?請問部長。跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘裕?"},{"start":395.303,"end":414.961,"text":"現在目前整個我們漁電工生跟不利更多區裡面使用大概只有只佔的百分之十還有百分之九十的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間好有人說有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎謝謝陳部長請回"},{"start":421.766,"end":423.006,"text":"如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產?請責成陳部長確實把握。"},{"start":443.786,"end":456.998,"text":"我們第一個優先就是農業優先是的第二個因為未來的我們的能源的使用發電裝置越來越多而且很分散如何管理避免弊端各位責任經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢"},{"start":458.933,"end":461.195,"text":"發展AI一定要用SM嗎?"},{"start":481.873,"end":509.005,"text":"除了規達這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?"},{"start":509.833,"end":534.908,"text":"這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電"},{"start":542.49,"end":562.88,"text":"國際企業要不要加入RE100?國際企業要嗎?他的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛但是有一些巨擘啊他在他自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100對他除了自己不需要RE100之外他的供應鏈需要RE100的他們就不能用什麼那請問一下核電算是綠電嗎?"},{"start":564.443,"end":583.884,"text":"河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件台灣沒有不用綠電的條件院長是不是同意?台灣沒有放核電、核廢料的條件台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件"},{"start":586.344,"end":610.62,"text":"這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來台灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的"},{"start":612.046,"end":639.436,"text":"隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎"},{"start":640.78,"end":662.476,"text":"新加坡他們也是多元綠能啦這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網路好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢"},{"start":663.055,"end":685.821,"text":"那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍的設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁"},{"start":690.936,"end":696.328,"text":"沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究"},{"start":697.742,"end":726.241,"text":"河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎"},{"start":726.721,"end":747.368,"text":"我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收對我們來講都還是一個比較但是陸特丹在做了對陸特丹在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長跟我說臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦臺灣喔"},{"start":751.77,"end":774.471,"text":"光電、風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成濾清再去變成濾安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的濾...臺灣的濾電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的濾安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣欸...完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入濾能的條件"},{"start":783.038,"end":798.327,"text":"我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多"},{"start":798.607,"end":815.223,"text":"好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,"},{"start":816.024,"end":834.409,"text":"包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以只用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?"},{"start":834.409,"end":835.069,"text":"劉主委你覺得呢?"},{"start":836.465,"end":852.687,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力"},{"start":853.027,"end":853.047,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":872.737,"end":899.771,"text":"我也跟委員報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了"},{"start":900.211,"end":902.332,"text":"臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?"},{"start":917.708,"end":932.41,"text":"報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後實驗到我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（15時18分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員及在場的媒體記者女士先生。我們有請卓院長，還有劉主委、郭部長及農業部陳部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長、陳部長、劉主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好。在其他三位部長到位之前，今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理，而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案，但在此之前，這幾天一直有個議題繼續延燒，那就是高鐵延伸案。記得上次在這裡我質詢過院長，我提到有一個臺南案，院長說沒聽過，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初我們在第一次接觸到這個報告時，裡面就是4個案，即燕巢案、左營案、高雄案和潮州案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要提醒大家，其實它原本叫燕巢案，也就是有這個案子，請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：燕巢案是不是？"],["鍾委員佳濱：燕巢案。另外，我們看到大家的討論都集中在要用哪一條路線，其實關切的都是工程的施工期程，還有拆遷的問題，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我認為高鐵另外要考慮的是後續的營運，因為路線的選擇會影響到後面營運的可行性，這一點也請你們嚴格評估，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三個，我認為高鐵應該與臺灣同步永續發展，所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線，新幹線要怎麼永續發展呢？首先第一，它會定期更新列車跟車廂的升級，目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年，下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來。第二，要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸，所以你看，儘管北海道人口減少，日本的新幹線還是義無反顧的繼續開到北海道，就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展，也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能，你同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：交通先行，發展社區，這應該是一個非常正確的方向……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們要投入比較多的建設資金。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，好，我接下來就請院長可以用這個方式，我明天會請教交通部長。","我們來談今天的能源政策，請教一下郭部長，我這邊給你看一個2023年發購電量的結構跟成本，目前我們的燃氣發電有12座、燃煤有6座、核電有3個機組，記住這12、6跟3，目前占比分別為燃氣占將近四成四、燃煤占三成四，我有注意到它們的成本差不多，都三塊五，但是總共大概要花三千多億去買天然氣、兩千多億去買煤炭，郭部長，大概是這個意思？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯吧？但是我們看核電，目前我們看到的，3個機組占比為7%，大概要用掉兩百多億，我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去，以燃煤跟燃氣來看，大概國際貿易商供應，另外，核電廠後續的核燃料棒的這些維運，我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低，才一塊三毛多，部長，你覺得問題出在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是它的一個……"],["郭部長智輝：後面的購置成本沒有計算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，核後端沒有去計算，而且目前核電廠的所有固定投資已經攤提完了，現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜、最便宜的，不可能再便宜了，是不是這樣？好，院長，我們往下看，但是另外我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應，光電是其中之一，光電只占不到5%，成本是四塊一毛三，你覺得是貴還是便宜？院長，你覺得這個四塊多是便宜還是貴？"],["卓院長榮泰：就光電目前這樣的發展，應該不是貴的啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是貴的……"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是合理的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚，沒有錯，因為部長曾經說，在菲律賓拉條電纜把菲律賓的光電輸過來。人家笑什麼？笑部長說，菲律賓的光電一度到五塊錢。我才赫然發現，原來光電在菲律賓比臺灣還貴啊！所以光電的成本較高，這是本來的，但是會越來越低，可是不因為成本高，世界各國就不採納，院長，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們急需要發展新的能源。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們看一下光電的案場，包括農電共生、不利耕地、機關用地的屋頂還有廠房的屋頂，包括住宅、商辦等等需要地方政府許可。但是我們最近也看到一個問題，很多弊案都跑出來，外界都說什麼綠電蟑螂，你覺得怎麼樣，為什麼會造成這個問題？請問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形，所以歷年下來也有相當多的案件正在偵辦當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴院長原因，我以國發會的大樓來看，國發會大樓的發電大概每單位面積的發電量是625度一坪，用全國發電量光電的總量去換算，大概全國要二十萬六千多坪才能發出這麼多電，如果按照目前我手上的統計，這些自然人所持有的農地或者土地或者法人所持有的土地，平均算起來，一個地主大概有65坪。換言之，要發這麼多電，所需要的土地面積大概是三千多個地主或經營者。院長，有沒有看出問題來了？我再講一次，我們的燃氣機組才12座、燃煤機組才6座、核電機組才3座，好不好管理？相對好管理，所以當你發現三千多個地主要去做光電發展的時候，這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得是土地使用上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中，跟經濟部、台電營運有沒有關聯？沒有關聯；跟發展綠電有沒有關聯？沒有關聯，純粹是分散式，我們未來發現光電的經營者因為眾多且分散就很難管理，政府要發展管理的方法，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們繼續談另外一個課題，要請陳部長上來一下。現在的農電政策，農電共生用在不利耕地的建置之上，請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎？請問部長。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2,164公……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有沒有開發光電的餘裕？"],["陳部長駿季：目前整個農電共生跟不利耕作區裡面使用大概只占了10%而已……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有很多面積可以開發光電嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：還有90%的空間是可以利用的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有很多空間？"],["陳部長駿季：90%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有位董事長說，如果臺灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發的話，臺灣六分之一要蓋光電板。郭部長，你同意這樣的說法嗎？謝謝陳部長，請回。"],["郭部長智輝：剛才委員是說台積電要用太陽能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：台積電的電統統用光電板發，臺灣有六分之一要蓋光電板，有這樣需要嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是沒有必要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有必要，好。但是我現在要提醒的，就是兩個結論，請院長指示：如何避免光電侵蝕農地，以確保糧食生產？請責成陳部長這點要確實地把握，跟國人承諾，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們第一個優先就是農漁優先。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。第二個，因為未來我們能源的使用，發電裝置越來越多，而且很分散，如何管理、避免弊端，可不可以責成經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，這個制度面我們來討論。"],["郭部長智輝：我們都是多元的綠電，所以不會只是都放在光電上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，但是因為光電的地主眾多，所以我們要取得它發電的同時要做好管理，同意吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。接下來我們繼續看，有一種說法是發展AI一定要用SMR，剛剛張委員也提到了，請問部長，除了輝達之外，你說還有2030年還要設置10座，為什麼科技巨擘都鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢？郭部長，為什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：因為它在建設會比較快，時間會比較快。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我現在有3個問題：它量體小，施工迅速，然後成本低。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要用多少電，就自己放幾座就好了，不用去跟政府求，院長知道原因了吧。這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼勤用SMR？但是請問院長，剛剛有問喔，SMR有沒有核廢料？"],["卓院長榮泰：還是有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是有，甚至剛剛張委員說更多嘛。所以SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應這些科技巨擘使用了嗎？部長，你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他們不一定是用SMR，其實過去的核電、過去的方式去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：用原有的傳統核電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是問題來了，國際企業要不要加入RE100？國際企業要嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：它就是要加入RE100……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：但是有一些巨擘在它自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，除了自己不需要RE100之外，它的供應鏈需要RE100的，他們就不能用什麼……請問一下，核電算是綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：核電是可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是綠電嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電，所以臺灣沒有貯放核電核廢料的條件，臺灣沒有不用綠電的條件，院長是不是同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有放核電核廢料的條件……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件。"],["卓院長榮泰：這兩者都對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩者都對，好，謝謝。那我們來看一下，最近部長有一番發言，大家聽到了，要用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電、光電拿來臺灣。我請教院長，你有沒有聽過新加坡跟澳洲要建4,300公里的海底電纜，把澳洲的光電送到新加坡？有沒有聽過？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，有聽到這樣的一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果300公里都不可能，你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是發瘋了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作，這應該是一個必然的趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，澳洲在北部的沙漠有1萬2,400公頃，發的光電可以當台積電的四成使用，發電量達到6GW。但是為什麼新加坡要那麼多電？新加坡有台積電嗎？它要發展AI嘛。新加坡為了發展AI而需要電，它願意投資4,300公里拉這個電纜。請問郭部長，你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：新加坡他們也是多元綠能，這個只是其中一個，大概總的量是6GW。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["郭部長智輝：但是新加坡有另外一個想法，它是從新加坡、然後到整個東南亞，他們要做一個區域網絡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，我打斷你，綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎？澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠氫、綠氨送給新加坡呢？"],["郭部長智輝：那個成本可能更高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為澳洲沒有水、沒有淡水。所以我們一起來看看歐洲的能源轉型，北海原有油田鑽油平臺現在要轉型為離岸風機，成為能源島，他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴加以轉換，也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴，所以他們就普遍地設離岸風機，也設了氫能島。院長知道這樣的國際趨勢嗎？院長，知道北歐的這個趨勢啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有很清楚，但知道各國的發展，這個都是一個選項之一。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，我請你去研究，請部長去研究一下。荷蘭的鹿特丹現在就是用了包括綠電、包括液態氨的專用碼頭，把綠氨變成綠氫，儲存到氫能儲槽，它可以直接用來發電使用、給氫能車使用，也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地。我覺得鹿特丹、荷蘭想要成為歐洲綠能的輸入港，你覺得臺灣有沒有可能除了成為亞洲資產管理中心之外，也成為亞洲一個綠能的管理中心？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在比較大的問題是綠氫、綠氨的輸送以及接收，這對我們來講都還是一個比較……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是鹿特丹在做了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們可能要多去攝取國際上的經驗。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案，有前任部長跟我說，臺灣的綠電生吃就不夠了，沒辦法讓你曬乾，臺灣光電、風電拿來直接用掉，就沒有可能再去變成綠氫、再去變成綠氨使用。部長在點頭，這表示臺灣的綠電不能自給自足，要從國外輸入，從國外輸入是不是有三種方法？海底電纜、管路運輸液態綠氨或者用船舶運輸，部長，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：完全正確。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入綠能的條件？"],["郭部長智輝：成本低的我們就可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這三種你覺得臺灣哪一個條件比較符合？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在在看科技的發展，如果以海底電纜來講的話，大概跟距離有關係，跟loss也有關係，目前來看，海底電纜的成本與用船運的成本大概差不多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：電纜與船運差不多。"],["卓院長榮泰：請國發會回答一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等一下我再給劉主委發表意見。往下看，但是我們現在要發展進口綠氫來應對臺灣的綠電不足，其實我有注意到，也要請院長責成國發會注意，現在我們有後端的應用，包括氫能車、加氫站，包括家庭各方面使用的綠氫，除了用綠氫去發電之外，可以只用綠氫，對不對？這些後端的配套有一個根本的致命傷，如果前端沒有接受綠氫或綠氨的港埠設施，我們能不能做？劉主委，你覺得呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，因為氫的安定性比較低，所以這幾年的趨勢是把氫轉化成氨，然後進來以後，臺灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的氨，所以從儲存到運輸臺灣都有一定的能力。現在日本也研究出來用綠氨直接……原來是氨要轉成氫，現在是用燃燒到600度就可以直接使用，這樣的發電機也已經研發成功了，日本現在在研究直接把綠氨拿去做汽車的燃料，所以這個趨勢是存在的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以臺灣用綠電……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我也順便跟委員報告一下，其實新加坡最近有一個方案已經簽約，它跟印尼直接買綠電，然後拉電纜到它那裡去，所以這幾條路線都是可行的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以臺灣需要綠電，但是自給自足不夠，我們要從外面用電纜、管路還有船舶運輸，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，剛剛主委講到各種綠氫綠能的運用端，臺灣都在發展了，但是最重要、最重要的是什麼？就是進口的設施，請問院長，臺灣的港口是不是做好用船舶接收氫能了呢？這是交通部管的，這不是經濟部，也不是國發會，可能有國發會的部分，請問，你覺得進口綠氫臺灣做好準備沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，抱歉！我們現在準備的應該是以接收天然氣為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢？最後，我時間到了，我有兩個結論，第一，是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散及避免弊端的管理方法，可以嗎？第二個，請盤點光電侵蝕農地，造成我們糧食安全的問題，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，請研議最適合的綠氫進口方案，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們來研究，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第14位葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}