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\"end\": 62.393, \"text\": \"因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 42.368, \"end\": 42.588, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 42.588, \"end\": 42.748, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 42.748, \"end\": 42.988, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 42.988, \"end\": 43.088, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 43.088, \"end\": 43.208, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 43.208, \"end\": 44.629, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 44.629, \"end\": 44.869, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 44.869, \"end\": 44.989, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 44.989, \"end\": 45.149, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 45.149, \"end\": 45.629, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 45.629, \"end\": 46.149, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 46.149, \"end\": 46.929, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 46.929, \"end\": 47.089, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 47.089, \"end\": 48.109, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 48.109, \"end\": 48.33, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 48.33, \"end\": 48.49, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 48.49, \"end\": 48.61, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 48.61, \"end\": 48.91, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 48.91, \"end\": 49.61, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 49.61, \"end\": 49.93, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 49.93, \"end\": 50.19, \"score\": 0.918}, 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{\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 57.232, \"end\": 57.352, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 57.352, \"end\": 57.532, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 57.532, \"end\": 57.672, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 57.672, \"end\": 57.772, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 57.772, \"end\": 58.512, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 58.512, \"end\": 58.772, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 58.772, \"end\": 58.912, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 58.912, \"end\": 59.072, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 59.072, \"end\": 59.592, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 59.592, \"end\": 59.692, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 59.692, \"end\": 59.792, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 59.792, \"end\": 60.232, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 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\"但如果現在宣誓說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 62.873, \"end\": 63.053, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 63.053, \"end\": 63.193, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 63.193, \"end\": 63.533, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 63.533, \"end\": 63.754, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 63.754, \"end\": 63.954, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"誓\", \"start\": 63.954, \"end\": 64.534, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 64.534, \"end\": 64.694, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 64.694, \"end\": 64.834, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 64.834, \"end\": 65.435, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 65.435, \"end\": 65.555, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 65.555, \"end\": 65.655, 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\"我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 81.124, \"end\": 81.204, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 81.204, \"end\": 81.304, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 81.304, \"end\": 81.464, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 81.464, \"end\": 81.604, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 81.604, \"end\": 81.845, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 81.845, \"end\": 81.945, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 81.945, \"end\": 82.425, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 82.425, \"end\": 82.945, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 82.945, \"end\": 83.106, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 83.106, \"end\": 83.226, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 83.226, \"end\": 83.846, 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\"end\": 794.809, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 794.809, \"end\": 795.009, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 795.009, \"end\": 795.21, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 795.21, \"end\": 795.45, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 795.45, \"end\": 795.61, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 795.61, \"end\": 795.71, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 795.71, \"end\": 795.79, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 795.79, \"end\": 795.93, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 795.93, \"end\": 796.291, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 796.291, \"end\": 796.631, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"線\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 796.631, \"end\": 796.831, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 796.831, \"end\": 797.111, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 797.111, \"end\": 797.271, 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\"start\": 926.97, \"end\": 927.191, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 927.191, \"end\": 927.431, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 927.431, \"end\": 927.651, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 927.651, \"end\": 927.671, \"score\": 0.256}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 928.85, \"end\": 929.011, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 929.011, \"end\": 929.031, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,543 --> 00:00:17,804\n韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好因為颱風又快來了剛剛有看到您在氣象署後面有接受訪問你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆\n\n2\n00:00:42,368 --> 00:01:02,393\n因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假\n\n3\n00:01:02,873 --> 00:01:20,424\n但如果現在宣誓說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了\n\n4\n00:01:21,124 --> 00:01:38,758\n我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假\n\n5\n00:01:39,358 --> 00:01:41,919\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n6\n00:02:00,236 --> 00:02:00,256\n韓國瑜\n\n7\n00:02:15,981 --> 00:02:16,021\n主席\n\n8\n00:02:31,777 --> 00:02:47,563\n這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高所以看起來比他老我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎\n\n9\n00:02:49,702 --> 00:03:15,573\n你認同說法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為甚麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法紀憲高不高會不會掉法?\n\n10\n00:03:15,993 --> 00:03:39,286\n其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們的空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊靶有關的\n\n11\n00:03:40,253 --> 00:03:42,635\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三\n\n12\n00:04:08,715 --> 00:04:28,012\n我這時間還比你長不是這個你這樣推就有點問題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告\n\n13\n00:04:29,333 --> 00:04:51,707\n我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點\n\n14\n00:04:53,028 --> 00:05:19,021\n所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給\n\n15\n00:05:20,362 --> 00:05:34,385\n但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠協和電廠的部分105年PM10是43.3%112年他的PM10是35.8%請問一下他有減少6乘5嗎報告委員這個其實不能只看電廠是要看一個區域的面積要用環境部的所有的標準的測站區域面積那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的\n\n16\n00:05:48,504 --> 00:05:58,977\n這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿\n\n17\n00:06:03,402 --> 00:06:12,749\n所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢\n\n18\n00:06:20,214 --> 00:06:47,154\n例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好\n\n19\n00:06:48,595 --> 00:07:16,568\n報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看,不是看一個電廠。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微路對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。\n\n20\n00:07:17,268 --> 00:07:44,539\n我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這個東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據\n\n21\n00:07:46,176 --> 00:07:51,178\n提供給我們的資料了到了2030年說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%藍氣50%藍煤20%沒錯吧實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電\n\n22\n00:08:03,277 --> 00:08:29,817\n火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。嗯,是低碳,低碳這個到底有沒有低碳,因為現在,你今天提供給我的資料齁,你今天提供給我的資料齁,我們都是打一個大問號啦,就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣,我拿到資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛。那再來齁,\n\n23\n00:08:32,194 --> 00:08:49,559\n雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園沒有核電的時代然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%\n\n24\n00:09:05,601 --> 00:09:24,480\n10月度我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年5月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論\n\n25\n00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:25,721\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配\n\n26\n00:09:47,100 --> 00:10:01,302\n這代表什麼?代表說如果火力發電它會比較容易造成二氧化碳或是造成空氣汙染的話在晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的所以某種程度來講我們也不能只看它的平均值平均值就是有一點粉飾太平啦院長你同意嗎\n\n27\n00:10:02,359 --> 00:10:24,236\n當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的\n\n28\n00:10:26,943 --> 00:10:55,096\n燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍\n\n29\n00:10:56,036 --> 00:11:23,244\n可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%\n\n30\n00:11:24,264 --> 00:11:43,472\n因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍\n\n31\n00:11:44,292 --> 00:11:44,472\n。（10月30日（。三\n\n32\n00:12:09,241 --> 00:12:09,261\n。三\n\n33\n00:12:30,518 --> 00:12:55,221\n所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係\n\n34\n00:12:57,333 --> 00:13:19,173\n那是什麼關係?沒有,我講發電量。他是每一個不同的世界左、下、西做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出多少。可是問題是我們現在,我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性。那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊。\n\n35\n00:13:20,114 --> 00:13:40,545\n那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的\n\n36\n00:13:41,546 --> 00:13:56,317\n沒有,部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就問你,因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們定的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在只能把路徑告訴我們風力的發電,2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW\n\n37\n00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:10,407\n到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他的還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電是1.5倍\n\n38\n00:14:30,862 --> 00:14:57,736\n我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛但是我們有權力的發展我知道啦我們也支持你們權力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊\n\n39\n00:14:58,436 --> 00:15:27,671\n所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫能源配比啊我們能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嗎這是基本的問題嘛所以我們今天跟你報告我們怎麼做啊\n\n40\n00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:29,031\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12543\t17804\t韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好因為颱風又快來了剛剛有看到您在氣象署後面有接受訪問你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆\n42368\t62393\t因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假\n62873\t80424\t但如果現在宣誓說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了\n81124\t98758\t我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假\n99358\t101919\t二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n120236\t120256\t韓國瑜\n135981\t136021\t主席\n151777\t167563\t這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高所以看起來比他老我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎\n169702\t195573\t你認同說法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為甚麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法紀憲高不高會不會掉法?\n195993\t219286\t其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們的空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊靶有關的\n220253\t222635\t三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三\n248715\t268012\t我這時間還比你長不是 這個你這樣推就有點問題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告\n269333\t291707\t我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點\n293028\t319021\t所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給\n320362\t334385\t但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠協和電廠的部分105年PM10是43.3%112年他的PM10是35.8%請問一下他有減少6乘5嗎報告委員這個其實不能只看電廠是要看一個區域的面積要用環境部的所有的標準的測站區域面積那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的\n348504\t358977\t這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿\n363402\t372749\t所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢\n380214\t407154\t例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好\n408595\t436568\t報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看,不是看一個電廠。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微路對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。\n437268\t464539\t我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這個東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據\n466176\t471178\t提供給我們的資料了到了2030年說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%藍氣50%藍煤20%沒錯吧實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電\n483277\t509817\t火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。嗯,是低碳,低碳這個到底有沒有低碳,因為現在,你今天提供給我的資料齁,你今天提供給我的資料齁,我們都是打一個大問號啦,就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣,我拿到資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛。那再來齁,\n512194\t529559\t雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園沒有核電的時代然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%\n530179\t545401\t。﹗\n545601\t564480\t10月度我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年5月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論\n565040\t565721\t二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配\n587100\t601302\t這代表什麼?代表說如果火力發電它會比較容易造成二氧化碳或是造成空氣汙染的話在晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的所以某種程度來講我們也不能只看它的平均值平均值就是有一點粉飾太平啦 院長你同意嗎\n602359\t624236\t當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的\n626943\t655096\t燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍\n656036\t683244\t可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%\n684264\t703472\t因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍\n704292\t704472\t。（10月30日（。 三\n729241\t729261\t。 三\n750518\t775221\t所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係\n777333\t799173\t那是什麼關係?沒有,我講發電量。他是每一個不同的世界左、下、西做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出多少。可是問題是我們現在,我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性。那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊。\n800114\t820545\t那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的\n821546\t836317\t沒有,部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就問你,因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們定的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在只能把路徑告訴我們風力的發電,2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW\n840560\t850407\t到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他的還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電是1.5倍\n870862\t897736\t我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛但是我們有權力的發展我知道啦我們也支持你們權力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊\n898436\t927671\t所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫能源配比啊我們能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嗎這是基本的問題嘛所以我們今天跟你報告我們怎麼做啊\n928850\t929031\t主席\n","txt":"韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好因為颱風又快來了剛剛有看到您在氣象署後面有接受訪問你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆\n因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假\n但如果現在宣誓說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了\n我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n韓國瑜\n主席\n這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高所以看起來比他老我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎\n你認同說法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為甚麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法紀憲高不高會不會掉法?\n其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們的空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊靶有關的\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三\n我這時間還比你長不是 這個你這樣推就有點問題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告\n我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點\n所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給\n但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠協和電廠的部分105年PM10是43.3%112年他的PM10是35.8%請問一下他有減少6乘5嗎報告委員這個其實不能只看電廠是要看一個區域的面積要用環境部的所有的標準的測站區域面積那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的\n這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿\n所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢\n例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好\n報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看,不是看一個電廠。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微路對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。\n我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這個東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據\n提供給我們的資料了到了2030年說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%藍氣50%藍煤20%沒錯吧實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電\n火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。嗯,是低碳,低碳這個到底有沒有低碳,因為現在,你今天提供給我的資料齁,你今天提供給我的資料齁,我們都是打一個大問號啦,就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣,我拿到資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛。那再來齁,\n雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園沒有核電的時代然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%\n。﹗\n10月度我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年5月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配\n這代表什麼?代表說如果火力發電它會比較容易造成二氧化碳或是造成空氣汙染的話在晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的所以某種程度來講我們也不能只看它的平均值平均值就是有一點粉飾太平啦 院長你同意嗎\n當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的\n燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍\n可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%\n因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍\n。（10月30日（。 三\n。 三\n所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係\n那是什麼關係?沒有,我講發電量。他是每一個不同的世界左、下、西做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出多少。可是問題是我們現在,我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性。那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊。\n那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的\n沒有,部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就問你,因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們定的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在只能把路徑告訴我們風力的發電,2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW\n到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他的還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電是1.5倍\n我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛但是我們有權力的發展我知道啦我們也支持你們權力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊\n所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫能源配比啊我們能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嗎這是基本的問題嘛所以我們今天跟你報告我們怎麼做啊\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.543 --> 00:17.804\n韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好因為颱風又快來了剛剛有看到您在氣象署後面有接受訪問你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆\n\n00:42.368 --> 01:02.393\n因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假\n\n01:02.873 --> 01:20.424\n但如果現在宣誓說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了\n\n01:21.124 --> 01:38.758\n我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假\n\n01:39.358 --> 01:41.919\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n02:00.236 --> 02:00.256\n韓國瑜\n\n02:15.981 --> 02:16.021\n主席\n\n02:31.777 --> 02:47.563\n這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高所以看起來比他老我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎\n\n02:49.702 --> 03:15.573\n你認同說法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為甚麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法紀憲高不高會不會掉法?\n\n03:15.993 --> 03:39.286\n其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們的空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊靶有關的\n\n03:40.253 --> 03:42.635\n三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。三\n\n04:08.715 --> 04:28.012\n我這時間還比你長不是這個你這樣推就有點問題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告\n\n04:29.333 --> 04:51.707\n我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點\n\n04:53.028 --> 05:19.021\n所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給\n\n05:20.362 --> 05:34.385\n但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠協和電廠的部分105年PM10是43.3%112年他的PM10是35.8%請問一下他有減少6乘5嗎報告委員這個其實不能只看電廠是要看一個區域的面積要用環境部的所有的標準的測站區域面積那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的\n\n05:48.504 --> 05:58.977\n這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿\n\n06:03.402 --> 06:12.749\n所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢\n\n06:20.214 --> 06:47.154\n例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好\n\n06:48.595 --> 07:16.568\n報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看,不是看一個電廠。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微路對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。\n\n07:17.268 --> 07:44.539\n我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這個東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據\n\n07:46.176 --> 07:51.178\n提供給我們的資料了到了2030年說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%藍氣50%藍煤20%沒錯吧實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電\n\n08:03.277 --> 08:29.817\n火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。嗯,是低碳,低碳這個到底有沒有低碳,因為現在,你今天提供給我的資料齁,你今天提供給我的資料齁,我們都是打一個大問號啦,就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣,我拿到資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛。那再來齁,\n\n08:32.194 --> 08:49.559\n雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園沒有核電的時代然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%\n\n09:05.601 --> 09:24.480\n10月度我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年5月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論\n\n09:25.040 --> 09:25.721\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配\n\n09:47.100 --> 10:01.302\n這代表什麼?代表說如果火力發電它會比較容易造成二氧化碳或是造成空氣汙染的話在晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的所以某種程度來講我們也不能只看它的平均值平均值就是有一點粉飾太平啦院長你同意嗎\n\n10:02.359 --> 10:24.236\n當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的\n\n10:26.943 --> 10:55.096\n燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍\n\n10:56.036 --> 11:23.244\n可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%\n\n11:24.264 --> 11:43.472\n因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍\n\n11:44.292 --> 11:44.472\n。（10月30日（。三\n\n12:09.241 --> 12:09.261\n。三\n\n12:30.518 --> 12:55.221\n所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係\n\n12:57.333 --> 13:19.173\n那是什麼關係?沒有,我講發電量。他是每一個不同的世界左、下、西做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出多少。可是問題是我們現在,我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性。那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊。\n\n13:20.114 --> 13:40.545\n那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的\n\n13:41.546 --> 13:56.317\n沒有,部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就問你,因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們定的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在只能把路徑告訴我們風力的發電,2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW\n\n14:00.560 --> 14:10.407\n到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他的還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電是1.5倍\n\n14:30.862 --> 14:57.736\n我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛但是我們有權力的發展我知道啦我們也支持你們權力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊\n\n14:58.436 --> 15:27.671\n所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫能源配比啊我們能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嗎這是基本的問題嘛所以我們今天跟你報告我們怎麼做啊\n\n15:28.850 --> 15:29.031\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.543,"end":17.804,"text":"韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好因為颱風又快來了剛剛有看到您在氣象署後面有接受訪問你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆"},{"start":42.368,"end":62.393,"text":"因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假"},{"start":62.873,"end":80.424,"text":"但如果現在宣誓說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了"},{"start":81.124,"end":98.758,"text":"我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假"},{"start":99.358,"end":101.919,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":120.236,"end":120.256,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":135.981,"end":136.021,"text":"主席"},{"start":151.777,"end":167.563,"text":"這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高所以看起來比他老我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎"},{"start":169.702,"end":195.573,"text":"你認同說法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為甚麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法紀憲高不高會不會掉法?"},{"start":195.993,"end":219.286,"text":"其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們的空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊靶有關的"},{"start":220.253,"end":222.635,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":248.715,"end":268.012,"text":"我這時間還比你長不是 這個你這樣推就有點問題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告"},{"start":269.333,"end":291.707,"text":"我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點"},{"start":293.028,"end":319.021,"text":"所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給"},{"start":320.362,"end":334.385,"text":"但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠協和電廠的部分105年PM10是43.3%112年他的PM10是35.8%請問一下他有減少6乘5嗎報告委員這個其實不能只看電廠是要看一個區域的面積要用環境部的所有的標準的測站區域面積那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的"},{"start":348.504,"end":358.977,"text":"這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿"},{"start":363.402,"end":372.749,"text":"所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢"},{"start":380.214,"end":407.154,"text":"例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好"},{"start":408.595,"end":436.568,"text":"報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看,不是看一個電廠。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微路對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。"},{"start":437.268,"end":464.539,"text":"我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這個東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據"},{"start":466.176,"end":471.178,"text":"提供給我們的資料了到了2030年說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%藍氣50%藍煤20%沒錯吧實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電"},{"start":483.277,"end":509.817,"text":"火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。嗯,是低碳,低碳這個到底有沒有低碳,因為現在,你今天提供給我的資料齁,你今天提供給我的資料齁,我們都是打一個大問號啦,就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣,我拿到資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛。那再來齁,"},{"start":512.194,"end":529.559,"text":"雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園沒有核電的時代然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%"},{"start":530.179,"end":545.401,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":545.601,"end":564.48,"text":"10月度我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年5月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論"},{"start":565.04,"end":565.721,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配"},{"start":587.1,"end":601.302,"text":"這代表什麼?代表說如果火力發電它會比較容易造成二氧化碳或是造成空氣汙染的話在晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的所以某種程度來講我們也不能只看它的平均值平均值就是有一點粉飾太平啦 院長你同意嗎"},{"start":602.359,"end":624.236,"text":"當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的"},{"start":626.943,"end":655.096,"text":"燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍"},{"start":656.036,"end":683.244,"text":"可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%"},{"start":684.264,"end":703.472,"text":"因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍"},{"start":704.292,"end":704.472,"text":"。（10月30日（。 三"},{"start":729.241,"end":729.261,"text":"。 三"},{"start":750.518,"end":775.221,"text":"所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係"},{"start":777.333,"end":799.173,"text":"那是什麼關係?沒有,我講發電量。他是每一個不同的世界左、下、西做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出多少。可是問題是我們現在,我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性。那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊。"},{"start":800.114,"end":820.545,"text":"那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的"},{"start":821.546,"end":836.317,"text":"沒有,部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就問你,因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們定的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在只能把路徑告訴我們風力的發電,2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW"},{"start":840.56,"end":850.407,"text":"到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他的還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電是1.5倍"},{"start":870.862,"end":897.736,"text":"我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛但是我們有權力的發展我知道啦我們也支持你們權力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊"},{"start":898.436,"end":927.671,"text":"所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫能源配比啊我們能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嗎這是基本的問題嘛所以我們今天跟你報告我們怎麼做啊"},{"start":928.85,"end":929.031,"text":"主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時34分）韓院長好，麻煩請卓院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：卓院長好。因為颱風又快來了，剛剛有看到你在氣象署後面有接受訪問，你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風假的機會，所以以後氣象要多一報，好像要改到9點報，因為以前大概都是7點。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有要改變、影響現在的時間，我們是希望在7點這一報的時候，可以跟所有的地方政府、國人講9點會再有一報，這一報大家要不要列為參考，讓地方政府去考量。"],["葉委員元之：因為以前7點是最後一報，所以大家大概就排8點宣布放假，如果現在宣布9點要多一報，我想縣市政府為了降低自己放錯颱風假的機率，一定會等到9點颱風氣象報告出來之後，大概10點才會宣布啦！這可能會造成的影響就是，以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假，時間又會往後推遲了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我的考量是說，如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化時，我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道？如果我們要承擔這個責任的話，氣象署能不能有能力去做到？我們會請氣象署做這樣的安排。"],["葉委員元之：那你會不會擔心說，以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假？會不會擔心？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要由地方政府自己去決定，他們也可以按照7點那一報來宣布。"],["葉委員元之：但是如果9點發現跟7點相比變化很大的話，原本說要放假，後來改不放假，或是原本不放假，改要放假，其實國人在這兩個小時也是很忐忑啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是放著變化大，不讓國人瞭解，或是照原來的比較早，但是不正確的資料，這個衡量要比較出來……"],["葉委員元之：可能你有研究過在這兩個小時……我不知道是不是氣象署有研究過，過去曾經因為7點到9點這兩個小時產生巨大變化，所以導致放假可能有錯放的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：氣象署有一句話提醒了我，他說我們過去的經驗很難完全去因應現在這種快速的變化，我們現在有新的作為……"],["葉委員元之：我個人是覺得多這一報沒有什麼太大的意義，不然的話，乾脆11點也多一報好了，就每兩個小時一報，因為越接近颱風要來的時間，一定是越準，所以這個給院長參考。","我們還是回到今天這個主題，院長，我要先請教一下，因為貴黨的立委許智傑攻擊我，他說我的髮際線很高，所以看起來比他老，我不知道你認不認同這個看法？我先問韓院長，你認同嗎？"],["主席：我最高。"],["葉委員元之：你最高！你認同如果髮際線比較高，就看起來比較老嗎？院長，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，委員青春活力啊！"],["葉委員元之：不是，你認不認同髮際線比較高，就看起來比較老？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不認同用這樣的統一標準。"],["葉委員元之：就不要攻擊容貌，像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神，他膝蓋又軟，很會蹲，這樣子互相攻擊容貌，不太有意義。但我今天為什麼講這件事情呢？是因為我們國人的髮際線高不高、會不會掉髮，其實政府也有責任，為什麼呢？因為根據很多研究報告顯示，如果說我們的空氣有污染的話，對於我們的毛囊是有損害的。院長可以看一下，2019年在馬德里舉辦第28屆一個大會的研究報告，「懸浮微粒」是跟人類掉髮有關，為什麼呢？因為你的頭皮細胞如果是暴露在PM粉塵當中，頭皮細胞內的蛋白質就會變少，就會造成落髮，韓國的未來研究中心也有類似的研究，所以我們政府有責任減少空污，這跟我們的掉髮有關。我頭髮掉得多，我還要被你們的立委笑說比較老，所以罵人的也是你們，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，你、我都生存在同樣的環境當中，我的時間還比你長……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你這樣說就有點問題了，因為每一個人適應環境的狀況不太一樣，有的人比較會受到影響，有的人比較不會受到影響。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，頭髮會掉，謠傳是酸雨比較多、比較厲害，跟PM比較沒有什麼關係。"],["葉委員元之：我現在不是講酸雨，我現在講的是國際的研究報告，我現在不是講酸雨啊！我們來看一下，其實空污對於我們的健康影響也很大，像我們現在的十大死因，有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣污染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管疾病，讓其發生的機率增加。我相信行政院、環境部也都有看到這一點，所以在你們的報告裡面，你們有刻意去強調政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少，這個是報告講的，說我們從2016年到2023年空污排放已經減少了六成五。但是院長，請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料，這份資料也是台電給我的，我們跟台電要很久了，在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我，我本來是要來罵為什麼不給，但它給我了，可能讓我沒機會消化。我們很簡單地看一下，你就看協和電廠的部分，105年PM10是43.3；112年，它的PM10是35.8。請問一下，它有減少六成五嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實不能只看電廠，是要看一個區域的面積，要用環境部所有標準的測站來講。"],["葉委員元之：看區域面，所以你的六成五怎麼算出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是電廠自己量的，這個……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以我現在是根據電廠，我現在光看協和電廠所排放出來的PM10，105年是43.3，到112年只降到35.8，就沒有到六成五啊！所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平。好，部長等一下，再來，除了這個六成五的問題之外，院長有沒有發現111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5，各個電廠都有上升的趨勢？譬如說協和電廠，110年度PM10是30.4，但到了112年是35.8，成長得非常地快；PM2.5的部分，協和電廠110年度是10.8，到112年成長到13.2，那你可以看各個電廠，不管是PM10或PM2.5，到112年實際上都有上升趨勢，我現在不知道113年是怎樣，所以我們的空污沒有你們講的控制得這麼好。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個要看環境部的標準空污，一個縣市、一個縣市空品區或是臺中的整體來看，不是看一個電廠。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我們剛剛秀給你的醫學報告講的都是懸浮微粒，都是PM，不管是PM10還是PM2.5，PM2.5或PM10就是會造成身體的危害嘛！當然環境部可以找很多其他的指標，把懸浮微物對環境的影響稀釋掉，但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：要看我們環境部在各地標準的測站，這個是台電自己量的，那我……"],["葉委員元之：所以台電量的跟環境部的不一樣？那環境部是不是在粉飾太平啊？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有粉飾太平，我們是標準手動去量PM2.5。"],["葉委員元之：好啦！你現在跟我吵這個東西也沒有什麼意義，為什麼？因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多，它就是有對身體造成影響。","接下來我們來看能源配比的部分，根據提供給我們的資料，到了2030年，最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%、燃氣50%、燃煤20%，沒錯吧？實際上，在2030年最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電，火力發電要造成空污就是比較容易啊！火力發電要淨零就是比較困難。"],["卓院長榮泰：70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。"],["葉委員元之：低碳這個到底有沒有低碳，因為現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦！"],["葉委員元之：行政院提供給我的資料……"],["彭部長啓明：有，少了快要一半。"],["葉委員元之：你們提供給我的資料我都是打一個大問號啦，就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題一樣，我拿到的資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛！再來，雖然感覺上好像……我看到你們給我們的報告，最近因為核三廠停機算是修整，所以現在臺灣實質上是非核家園啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有核電的……"],["葉委員元之：對，然後你說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾趴，在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾趴，所以直接推論說2025年的非核家園，我們的再生能源一樣可以達到十幾趴，沒錯吧？這是報告裡面寫的。"],["卓院長榮泰：做一個推論而已，這也是一個目標。"],["葉委員元之：也是目標嘛！但是我要跟院長講，其實這個目標過度推論，為什麼？因為現在是10月多，我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電，到明年5月的時候，風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電。第二就是明年的用電量一定大增，那你在核電退場的情況之下，你的綠電能不能補上，我打一個很大的問號，所以這個報告裡面，我覺得這也是一個過度推論。還有就是現在大家說到底能源配比是多少都是一個平均值，可是實際上你去看晚上，像我們看到上週五的發電狀況，火力發電加起來接近90%，今天早上我們也特別去看了台電的發電配比，火力發電一樣是91%，這個代表什麼？代表如果火力發電會比較容易造成二氧化碳或者造成空氣污染的話，晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的，所以某種程度來講，我們也不能只看它的平均值，平均值就是有一點粉飾太平，院長同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然你要看它那個時候的發電量的量是多少，可能平均值高一點，可是如果發電量在清晨、半夜是比較少的，那就不會產生委員所說的那樣。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！但是實際上它的比例是高的嘛！然後還有一個，我現在就來挑戰一下，到了2030年，你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎？現在告訴我們的就是我剛剛講的，燃氣50%、再生能源要30%、燃煤要20%，可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據，這全部都是引用你報告的數據，你們自己提到，2016年再生能源裝置是4.73GW，到了2023年年底，等於是七年多，我們的裝置容量到17.96GW，換句話說，裝置容量大概成長了快四倍，可是發電量成長多少呢？發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度，發電量只增加兩倍，為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍，發電量只有兩倍呢？因為我們大家都知道，再生能源能夠發電的時間很有限嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：有間歇性。"],["葉委員元之：對，很有限嘛！晚上就沒有光電或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱，我現在想要問院長的是，為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我們的再生能源可以到30%？因為我幫你算過，快接近八年你的發電量才成長了兩倍，2030距今大概是六年，因為今年也快過完了，大概是五年多的時間，五年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍以上，你的再生能源才有可能達到30%。過去七、八年，民進黨政府已經上窮碧落下黃泉了，去弄那麼多的光電廠，臺南很多人都在罵，以前謝龍介開玩笑說黑面琵鷺到了臺南要戴太陽眼鏡，然後還造成溫室效應，已經弄成這個樣子了，漁電共生、農電共生，現在發展已經有瓶頸，但是你又那麼有把握說，過去八年完全不會造成我們的瓶頸，未來的五年多有辦法讓我們的再生能源可以成長到現在的兩倍，你的信心是來自於哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：重點答復委員，我們拿風電來看，我們已經從示範區到潛力區，到現在已經到區塊發展了，所以這個發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多，而且比較穩定，其他能源也是，我們小水力發電……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，所以風力發電，你認為發電量會成長幾倍？"],["卓院長榮泰：事實上是如此。"],["葉委員元之：成長幾倍？因為我們要講數據嘛！如果你要達到2030年要30%的話，你的發電量起碼要現在再生能源的兩倍，所以你……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個沒有線性關係。"],["葉委員元之：那是什麼關係？沒有，我講發電量！那幾倍嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：它是每一個不同的時間所下去做的工程的量，來決定幾年以後能夠產出……"],["葉委員元之：對，可是問題是我們過去八年已經做了很多工程……"],["郭部長智輝：這個沒有線性關係，沒有線性，也沒有函數關係。"],["葉委員元之：你跟我講哪一個？沒關係，那你跟我講哪一個工程可以造成這樣的線性發展？你跟我講哪一個工程？"],["郭部長智輝：我就講沒有線性關係啊！"],["葉委員元之：那你一定要有工程，發電量才有可能曲線上升嘛！你現在就直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成發電量曲線上升……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們……"],["葉委員元之：我給你時間講嘛！你講嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量、所做風機的量是比較大……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，部長，你就針對我的問題回答，我現在就是問你，因為我也不是說你一定達不到，只是說你們訂的目標就我看來，我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑，你現在直接把路徑告訴我們。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員講一個數字，風力發電2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW，到2028年會達到7.9GW，到2030年我們的目標是達到10.9GW，這樣幾乎有達到委員剛剛所說的。但剛剛部長講的……"],["葉委員元之：那光電咧？"],["卓院長榮泰：光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW，2028年應該會達到26.2GW，2030年的目標是31.2GW。"],["葉委員元之：那你就沒有兩倍啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有兩倍，我還有其他的。"],["葉委員元之：還有什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：還有發展水力……"],["葉委員元之：我們一個一個來算嘛！剛剛院長講風力有兩倍嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們要發展水力還有其他的……"],["葉委員元之：那光電只有一點五倍。"],["卓院長榮泰：比方說我們如果有長足的發展，地熱也是一個可期待的項目，當然它現在還在試探的……"],["葉委員元之：所以地熱不確定嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們要全力的發展……"],["葉委員元之：我知道啦！我們也會支持你們全力發展，我現在是說目標訂出來總是要有路徑完成，也不是喊價嘛！就像過去蔡政府喊2025非核家園，現在就做不到就跳票了嘛！本來說綠電要到20%啊！根據你們的資料，我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔！你們也才16%而已，所以要告訴我們你要怎麼做，我們也支持你啊！可是你不能喊了一個數字達不到，我現在就問具體的路徑嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們會把這個路徑表示清楚。"],["葉委員元之：表示清楚？所以今天來做這個專報，你沒有準備資料就來報告，還要表示清楚？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，因為它沒有線性關係，所以我們就說……"],["葉委員元之：因為今天的報告叫能源配比，能源配比我們一定會問你怎麼做到這個能源配比嘛！這是基本的問題嘛！院長。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們現在跟你報告我們怎麼做啊！不是有跟你報告了嗎？"],["葉委員元之：我就是看不到啊！所以才會在這邊問啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我剛剛報告的數字都在裡面。"],["葉委員元之：沒有啊！我都看過了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以事後陪委員看一次。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第15號謝龍介委員質詢。","時間暫停，報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的是柯志恩委員特別推薦來的，台灣文教經貿交流協會所有好朋友，歡迎，熱情歡迎。","謝龍介委員，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}