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\"start\": 804.378, \"end\": 804.478, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 804.478, \"end\": 804.498, \"score\": 0.263}, {\"word\": \"漲\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 806.097, \"end\": 819.981, \"text\": \"長不長電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是長不長電價我有跟你們報告是說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 806.097, \"end\": 806.857, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 806.857, \"end\": 807.537, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 807.537, \"end\": 808.078, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 808.078, \"end\": 808.578, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 808.578, \"end\": 809.058, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 809.058, \"end\": 809.178, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 809.178, \"end\": 809.418, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 809.418, \"end\": 809.518, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 809.518, \"end\": 809.698, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 809.698, \"end\": 809.978, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 809.978, \"end\": 810.078, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 810.078, \"end\": 810.278, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 810.278, \"end\": 810.798, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"蠻\"}, {\"word\": \"矛\", \"start\": 810.798, \"end\": 811.058, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"盾\", \"start\": 811.058, \"end\": 811.218, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 811.218, \"end\": 811.358, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 811.358, \"end\": 811.538, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 811.538, 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\"電\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 819.5, \"end\": 819.54, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 819.54, \"end\": 819.6, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 819.6, \"end\": 819.74, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 819.74, \"end\": 819.78, \"score\": 0.502}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 819.78, \"end\": 819.961, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 819.961, \"end\": 819.981, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}]}, {\"start\": 826.122, \"end\": 846.795, \"text\": \"長不長電價是審議委員會決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 826.122, \"end\": 826.903, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 826.903, \"end\": 827.403, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 827.403, \"end\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,271 --> 00:00:35,875\n好謝謝主席有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長經濟部長備詢廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放\n\n2\n00:00:36,673 --> 00:00:44,634\n那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現\n\n3\n00:00:46,435 --> 00:01:11,320\n第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年\n\n4\n00:01:15,521 --> 00:01:31,373\n我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是\n\n5\n00:01:31,933 --> 00:01:32,093\n。（10月29日（\n\n6\n00:01:47,441 --> 00:02:16,147\n你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說台灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣是要做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常\n\n7\n00:02:17,383 --> 00:02:39,942\n高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年飛河家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊\n\n8\n00:02:41,303 --> 00:02:56,836\n我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?\n\n9\n00:02:59,943 --> 00:03:21,069\n繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要處理這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格\n\n10\n00:03:22,589 --> 00:03:36,702\n可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳\n\n11\n00:03:37,711 --> 00:04:04,291\n那我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎\n\n12\n00:04:06,376 --> 00:04:18,822\n報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠\n\n13\n00:04:21,943 --> 00:04:51,283\n希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰\n\n14\n00:04:52,023 --> 00:04:52,223\n。（10月29日（。三\n\n15\n00:05:37,239 --> 00:05:37,259\n。三\n\n16\n00:05:55,046 --> 00:06:20,951\n報告委員因為這個只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個datacenter的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便算的也不是加減程度算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔\n\n17\n00:06:22,071 --> 00:06:42,177\n賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增的燃氣燃氣的電源併網每年從這個130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有\n\n18\n00:06:43,114 --> 00:06:43,594\n在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠\n\n19\n00:07:03,313 --> 00:07:19,782\n大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這6個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含\n\n20\n00:07:21,564 --> 00:07:50,140\n這不是大筆一揮就有所以包含台南剛剛我們線容界委員也在問了所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是紙上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少\n\n21\n00:07:53,590 --> 00:07:56,723\n一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?\n\n22\n00:07:57,871 --> 00:08:22,470\n五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分平點頭你們很了解數字\n\n23\n00:08:23,411 --> 00:08:48,557\n所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組好對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對\n\n24\n00:08:50,697 --> 00:09:03,964\n對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的\n\n25\n00:09:04,768 --> 00:09:07,410\n對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界說,欸?\n\n26\n00:09:07,410 --> 00:09:23,763\n那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?\n\n27\n00:09:24,807 --> 00:09:43,056\n不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正...我要針對這件事情喔,我要針對這件事情喔,你爭議器我剛剛已經算過容量的數據啊。我們台中的部分齁,我們會蓋這個天然氣的這個發電機...沒有,我就是問說,我們是不是爭議器要減量沒?對,我們要蓋氣拆沒啊?\n\n28\n00:09:43,871 --> 00:10:05,846\n在蓋棄材沒嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?現在還沒蓋啊蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生這是您的假設啦齁但是我們會存留的部分他是不會運作但是是在備載\n\n29\n00:10:06,747 --> 00:10:36,218\n你確定不會運作你要確定的你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你出來就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基準來開始燒嗎所以你不敢保證對不對部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦\n\n30\n00:10:36,678 --> 00:10:59,501\n那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠\n\n31\n00:11:01,015 --> 00:11:15,249\n他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也什麼時候有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決所以也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣泛煤\n\n32\n00:11:18,812 --> 00:11:39,757\n好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以\n\n33\n00:11:40,277 --> 00:12:02,654\n其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是lowcarbonpower的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分\n\n34\n00:12:03,663 --> 00:12:29,519\n所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦\n\n35\n00:12:31,004 --> 00:12:51,351\n好院長我也想問喔這是很務實的才能說不是很快的時間把他整個廠都拆掉這就不務實了我們說啦沒有就是爭一氣啊爭一氣拆兩枚啊我們現在增加4加2之後我整理了一下喔台電官網的資料我們整理一下喔台電官網的資料平均這個購電成本111年是2.33元112年是3.59元到今年是3.06元\n\n36\n00:12:57,313 --> 00:13:24,498\n那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎\n\n37\n00:13:26,097 --> 00:13:39,981\n長不長電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是長不長電價我有跟你們報告是說\n\n38\n00:13:46,122 --> 00:14:06,795\n長不長電價是審議委員會決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球\n\n39\n00:14:08,469 --> 00:14:27,904\n這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端閉案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎\n\n40\n00:14:29,405 --> 00:14:50,979\n這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的來不好意思,我是把這些東西都列出來我來台言綠行有沒有問題,有嘛對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長\n\n41\n00:14:53,547 --> 00:15:01,238\n那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?\n\n42\n00:15:04,452 --> 00:15:26,837\n呃,這個檢察官...所以沒有嘛,對不對所以沒有嘛,對不對所以呢,對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速地將他通緝請問院長,這樣雙標檢調的調查是不是說查到哪,就辦到哪啊,不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有這個雙標的部分,無與...\n\n43\n00:15:35,443 --> 00:15:36,428\n謝謝廖偉強委員質詢﹐謝謝卓院長﹐各部會首長的備詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8271\t35875\t好謝謝主席有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長經濟部長備詢廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放\n36673\t44634\t那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現\n46435\t71320\t第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年\n75521\t91373\t我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是\n91933\t92093\t。（10月29日（\n107441\t136147\t你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說台灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣是要做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常\n137383\t159942\t高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年飛河家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊\n161303\t176836\t我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?\n179943\t201069\t繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要處理這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格\n202589\t216702\t可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳\n217711\t244291\t那我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎\n246376\t258822\t報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠\n261943\t291283\t希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰\n292023\t292223\t。（10月29日（。 三\n315674\t337159\t。﹗\n337239\t337259\t。 三\n355046\t380951\t報告委員因為這個只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個data center的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便算的也不是加減程度算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔\n382071\t402177\t賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增的燃氣燃氣的電源併網每年從這個130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有\n403114\t403594\t在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠\n423313\t439782\t大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這6個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含\n441564\t470140\t這不是大筆一揮就有所以包含台南剛剛我們線容界委員也在問了所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是紙上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少\n473590\t476723\t一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?\n477871\t502470\t五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分平點頭你們很了解數字\n503411\t528557\t所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組好對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對\n530697\t543964\t對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的\n544768\t547410\t對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界說,欸?\n547410\t563763\t那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?\n564807\t583056\t不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正...我要針對這件事情喔,我要針對這件事情喔,你爭議器我剛剛已經算過容量的數據啊。我們台中的部分齁,我們會蓋這個天然氣的這個發電機...沒有,我就是問說,我們是不是爭議器要減量沒?對,我們要蓋氣拆沒啊?\n583871\t605846\t在蓋棄材沒嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?現在還沒蓋啊蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生這是您的假設啦齁但是我們會存留的部分他是不會運作但是是在備載\n606747\t636218\t你確定不會運作你要確定的你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你出來就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基準來開始燒嗎所以你不敢保證對不對部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦\n636678\t659501\t那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠\n661015\t675249\t他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也什麼時候有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決所以也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣泛煤\n678812\t699757\t好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以\n700277\t722654\t其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是low carbon power的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分\n723663\t749519\t所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦\n751004\t771351\t好 院長我也想問喔 這是很務實的才能說不是很快的時間把他整個廠都拆掉 這就不務實了我們說啦 沒有 就是爭一氣啊 爭一氣拆兩枚啊我們現在增加4加2之後我整理了一下喔 台電官網的資料我們整理一下喔 台電官網的資料平均這個購電成本111年是2.33元112年是3.59元 到今年是3.06元\n777313\t804498\t那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎\n806097\t819981\t長不長電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是長不長電價我有跟你們報告是說\n826122\t846795\t長不長電價是審議委員會決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球\n848469\t867904\t這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端閉案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎\n869405\t890979\t這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的來不好意思,我是把這些東西都列出來我來台言綠行有沒有問題,有嘛對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長\n893547\t901238\t那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?\n904452\t926837\t呃,這個檢察官...所以沒有嘛,對不對所以沒有嘛,對不對所以呢,對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速地將他通緝請問院長,這樣雙標檢調的調查是不是說查到哪,就辦到哪啊,不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有這個雙標的部分,無與...\n935443\t936428\t謝謝廖偉強委員質詢﹐謝謝卓院長﹐各部會首長的備詢\n","txt":"好謝謝主席有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長經濟部長備詢廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放\n那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現\n第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年\n我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是\n。（10月29日（\n你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說台灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣是要做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常\n高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年飛河家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊\n我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?\n繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要處理這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格\n可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳\n那我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎\n報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠\n希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰\n。（10月29日（。 三\n。﹗\n。 三\n報告委員因為這個只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個data center的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便算的也不是加減程度算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔\n賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增的燃氣燃氣的電源併網每年從這個130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有\n在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠\n大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這6個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含\n這不是大筆一揮就有所以包含台南剛剛我們線容界委員也在問了所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是紙上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少\n一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?\n五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分平點頭你們很了解數字\n所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組好對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對\n對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的\n對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界說,欸?\n那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?\n不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正...我要針對這件事情喔,我要針對這件事情喔,你爭議器我剛剛已經算過容量的數據啊。我們台中的部分齁,我們會蓋這個天然氣的這個發電機...沒有,我就是問說,我們是不是爭議器要減量沒?對,我們要蓋氣拆沒啊?\n在蓋棄材沒嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?現在還沒蓋啊蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生這是您的假設啦齁但是我們會存留的部分他是不會運作但是是在備載\n你確定不會運作你要確定的你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你出來就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基準來開始燒嗎所以你不敢保證對不對部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦\n那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠\n他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也什麼時候有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決所以也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣泛煤\n好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以\n其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是low carbon power的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分\n所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦\n好 院長我也想問喔 這是很務實的才能說不是很快的時間把他整個廠都拆掉 這就不務實了我們說啦 沒有 就是爭一氣啊 爭一氣拆兩枚啊我們現在增加4加2之後我整理了一下喔 台電官網的資料我們整理一下喔 台電官網的資料平均這個購電成本111年是2.33元112年是3.59元 到今年是3.06元\n那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎\n長不長電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是長不長電價我有跟你們報告是說\n長不長電價是審議委員會決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球\n這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端閉案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎\n這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的來不好意思,我是把這些東西都列出來我來台言綠行有沒有問題,有嘛對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長\n那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?\n呃,這個檢察官...所以沒有嘛,對不對所以沒有嘛,對不對所以呢,對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速地將他通緝請問院長,這樣雙標檢調的調查是不是說查到哪,就辦到哪啊,不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有這個雙標的部分,無與...\n謝謝廖偉強委員質詢﹐謝謝卓院長﹐各部會首長的備詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.271 --> 00:35.875\n好謝謝主席有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長經濟部長備詢廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放\n\n00:36.673 --> 00:44.634\n那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現\n\n00:46.435 --> 01:11.320\n第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年\n\n01:15.521 --> 01:31.373\n我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是\n\n01:31.933 --> 01:32.093\n。（10月29日（\n\n01:47.441 --> 02:16.147\n你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說台灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣是要做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常\n\n02:17.383 --> 02:39.942\n高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年飛河家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊\n\n02:41.303 --> 02:56.836\n我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?\n\n02:59.943 --> 03:21.069\n繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要處理這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格\n\n03:22.589 --> 03:36.702\n可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳\n\n03:37.711 --> 04:04.291\n那我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎\n\n04:06.376 --> 04:18.822\n報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠\n\n04:21.943 --> 04:51.283\n希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰\n\n04:52.023 --> 04:52.223\n。（10月29日（。三\n\n05:37.239 --> 05:37.259\n。三\n\n05:55.046 --> 06:20.951\n報告委員因為這個只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個datacenter的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便算的也不是加減程度算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔\n\n06:22.071 --> 06:42.177\n賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增的燃氣燃氣的電源併網每年從這個130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有\n\n06:43.114 --> 06:43.594\n在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠\n\n07:03.313 --> 07:19.782\n大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這6個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含\n\n07:21.564 --> 07:50.140\n這不是大筆一揮就有所以包含台南剛剛我們線容界委員也在問了所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是紙上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少\n\n07:53.590 --> 07:56.723\n一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?\n\n07:57.871 --> 08:22.470\n五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分平點頭你們很了解數字\n\n08:23.411 --> 08:48.557\n所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組好對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對\n\n08:50.697 --> 09:03.964\n對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的\n\n09:04.768 --> 09:07.410\n對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界說,欸?\n\n09:07.410 --> 09:23.763\n那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?\n\n09:24.807 --> 09:43.056\n不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正...我要針對這件事情喔,我要針對這件事情喔,你爭議器我剛剛已經算過容量的數據啊。我們台中的部分齁,我們會蓋這個天然氣的這個發電機...沒有,我就是問說,我們是不是爭議器要減量沒?對,我們要蓋氣拆沒啊?\n\n09:43.871 --> 10:05.846\n在蓋棄材沒嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?現在還沒蓋啊蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生這是您的假設啦齁但是我們會存留的部分他是不會運作但是是在備載\n\n10:06.747 --> 10:36.218\n你確定不會運作你要確定的你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你出來就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基準來開始燒嗎所以你不敢保證對不對部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦\n\n10:36.678 --> 10:59.501\n那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠\n\n11:01.015 --> 11:15.249\n他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也什麼時候有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決所以也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣泛煤\n\n11:18.812 --> 11:39.757\n好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以\n\n11:40.277 --> 12:02.654\n其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是lowcarbonpower的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分\n\n12:03.663 --> 12:29.519\n所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦\n\n12:31.004 --> 12:51.351\n好院長我也想問喔這是很務實的才能說不是很快的時間把他整個廠都拆掉這就不務實了我們說啦沒有就是爭一氣啊爭一氣拆兩枚啊我們現在增加4加2之後我整理了一下喔台電官網的資料我們整理一下喔台電官網的資料平均這個購電成本111年是2.33元112年是3.59元到今年是3.06元\n\n12:57.313 --> 13:24.498\n那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎\n\n13:26.097 --> 13:39.981\n長不長電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是長不長電價我有跟你們報告是說\n\n13:46.122 --> 14:06.795\n長不長電價是審議委員會決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球\n\n14:08.469 --> 14:27.904\n這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端閉案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎\n\n14:29.405 --> 14:50.979\n這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的來不好意思,我是把這些東西都列出來我來台言綠行有沒有問題,有嘛對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長\n\n14:53.547 --> 15:01.238\n那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?\n\n15:04.452 --> 15:26.837\n呃,這個檢察官...所以沒有嘛,對不對所以沒有嘛,對不對所以呢,對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速地將他通緝請問院長,這樣雙標檢調的調查是不是說查到哪,就辦到哪啊,不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有這個雙標的部分,無與...\n\n15:35.443 --> 15:36.428\n謝謝廖偉強委員質詢﹐謝謝卓院長﹐各部會首長的備詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.271,"end":35.875,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長經濟部長備詢廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放"},{"start":36.673,"end":44.634,"text":"那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現"},{"start":46.435,"end":71.32,"text":"第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年"},{"start":75.521,"end":91.373,"text":"我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是"},{"start":91.933,"end":92.093,"text":"。（10月29日（"},{"start":107.441,"end":136.147,"text":"你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說台灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣是要做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常"},{"start":137.383,"end":159.942,"text":"高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年飛河家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊"},{"start":161.303,"end":176.836,"text":"我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?"},{"start":179.943,"end":201.069,"text":"繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要處理這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格"},{"start":202.589,"end":216.702,"text":"可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳"},{"start":217.711,"end":244.291,"text":"那我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎"},{"start":246.376,"end":258.822,"text":"報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠"},{"start":261.943,"end":291.283,"text":"希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰"},{"start":292.023,"end":292.223,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":315.674,"end":337.159,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":337.239,"end":337.259,"text":"。 三"},{"start":355.046,"end":380.951,"text":"報告委員因為這個只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個data center的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便算的也不是加減程度算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔"},{"start":382.071,"end":402.177,"text":"賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增的燃氣燃氣的電源併網每年從這個130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有"},{"start":403.114,"end":403.594,"text":"在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠"},{"start":423.313,"end":439.782,"text":"大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這6個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含"},{"start":441.564,"end":470.14,"text":"這不是大筆一揮就有所以包含台南剛剛我們線容界委員也在問了所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是紙上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少"},{"start":473.59,"end":476.723,"text":"一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?"},{"start":477.871,"end":502.47,"text":"五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分平點頭你們很了解數字"},{"start":503.411,"end":528.557,"text":"所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組好對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對"},{"start":530.697,"end":543.964,"text":"對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的"},{"start":544.768,"end":547.41,"text":"對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界說,欸?"},{"start":547.41,"end":563.763,"text":"那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?"},{"start":564.807,"end":583.056,"text":"不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正...我要針對這件事情喔,我要針對這件事情喔,你爭議器我剛剛已經算過容量的數據啊。我們台中的部分齁,我們會蓋這個天然氣的這個發電機...沒有,我就是問說,我們是不是爭議器要減量沒?對,我們要蓋氣拆沒啊?"},{"start":583.871,"end":605.846,"text":"在蓋棄材沒嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?現在還沒蓋啊蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生這是您的假設啦齁但是我們會存留的部分他是不會運作但是是在備載"},{"start":606.747,"end":636.218,"text":"你確定不會運作你要確定的你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你出來就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基準來開始燒嗎所以你不敢保證對不對部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦"},{"start":636.678,"end":659.501,"text":"那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠"},{"start":661.015,"end":675.249,"text":"他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也什麼時候有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決所以也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣泛煤"},{"start":678.812,"end":699.757,"text":"好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以"},{"start":700.277,"end":722.654,"text":"其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是low carbon power的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分"},{"start":723.663,"end":749.519,"text":"所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦"},{"start":751.004,"end":771.351,"text":"好 院長我也想問喔 這是很務實的才能說不是很快的時間把他整個廠都拆掉 這就不務實了我們說啦 沒有 就是爭一氣啊 爭一氣拆兩枚啊我們現在增加4加2之後我整理了一下喔 台電官網的資料我們整理一下喔 台電官網的資料平均這個購電成本111年是2.33元112年是3.59元 到今年是3.06元"},{"start":777.313,"end":804.498,"text":"那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎"},{"start":806.097,"end":819.981,"text":"長不長電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是長不長電價我有跟你們報告是說"},{"start":826.122,"end":846.795,"text":"長不長電價是審議委員會決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球"},{"start":848.469,"end":867.904,"text":"這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端閉案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎"},{"start":869.405,"end":890.979,"text":"這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的來不好意思,我是把這些東西都列出來我來台言綠行有沒有問題,有嘛對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長"},{"start":893.547,"end":901.238,"text":"那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?"},{"start":904.452,"end":926.837,"text":"呃,這個檢察官...所以沒有嘛,對不對所以沒有嘛,對不對所以呢,對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速地將他通緝請問院長,這樣雙標檢調的調查是不是說查到哪,就辦到哪啊,不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有這個雙標的部分,無與..."},{"start":935.443,"end":936.428,"text":"謝謝廖偉強委員質詢﹐謝謝卓院長﹐各部會首長的備詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（16時16分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長、部長辛苦了。院長，你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到，你對於新的核能，類似核融合技術的態度非常的開放，我想要請問，目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何？何時可以商轉？臺灣在未來3年內有沒有可能實現？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一點，對新的核能技術採開放的態度，我認為你、我都一樣，我想很多人也都是如此，但是我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是我的問題是掌握程度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在倒是沒有針對委員說的核融合這個單項，對它沒有特別的研究掌握……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒有掌握，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為未來新核能技術，還有很多的可能性……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以新核能科技，無法確定短期內可以在臺灣實現商轉……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的、觀察的年。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，所以我意思是不能確定，對不對？你現在觀察，因為你也沒有掌控嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，我想新核能像你剛剛說的，短期內如果能夠商轉，我們當然都願意擁抱這種新的科技、新的技術，因為目前看起來，其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是很好，就是表現是OK的，核廢料也少，核安全也OK。沒關係，但是在現實層面的不確定性，納入核電，我想只能夠採取現有的核分裂來討論，所以你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說，臺灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論。我想請問，什麼樣叫做高度共識？譬如當年以核養綠公投，同意票是589萬票通過，這樣算不算高度共識？然後媒體民調，也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮，六成支持發展核能，請問這樣算不算是高度共識？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，當年公投是非常高政治性的決定，所以我們在公投之後，也依照公投所呈現的內容，對2025年非核家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持。但是回到環境基本法，我們朝……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要說的就是，其實這個票數很多，甚至高於總統當選的558萬票！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們現在就是在……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這樣子如果不算是高度共識的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是有，所以我們就沒有在2025年非核家園來堅持，是回到環境基本法第二十三條……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：朝非核家園邁進。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，其實前面問這個，總之就是想要確定，除了新核能，你才算是開放討論，對不對？所以繼續發展現有核能這個共識，基本上就是沒有這個選項，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：繼續發展核能？"],["廖委員偉翔：就是現有的，就以現有核能使用的共識，基本上就是不認可……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在主要的核三廠二號機，在明年的5月就要除役，這是依照核管法年限的規定。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，院長，或許你覺得剛剛國內的這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要，但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做、國外的作法。這是（IEA）國際能源總署的表格，可以從這個表看到2021年也就是現在，等於是2020年開始，一直到2050年，其實世界各國都大幅增加核能開發的速度，所以在核能發展上面，我們跟國際算是背道而馳，我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件，連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度，世界排名下滑到19，總算力也下滑，所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI，推估2028年用電成長8倍。我想要請問院長，你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有設廠的餘裕嗎？現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分的話，我們現在是這個樣子，我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源電力，我們都有充分的準備……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長都充分準備……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要建設的電廠，希望委員也能夠支持，如果大家都能夠支持，我們就能夠達成電力的需求。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長謝謝，因為時間有限，其實我今天很認真看你們的詢答，你要表達的就是用電充足無虞。今天早上也有別的委員問過院長，院長說用電無虞，是不是？所以您覺得無虞嘛！","郭部長智輝；我們的意思是我們有計畫要發出的……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實我覺得……請您聽我說一下，我覺得說的頭頭是道啦！但是黃仁勳都表達了，穩定供電是臺灣最大挑戰，要發展AI就要有充足且乾淨的電。我想要講充足這件事情，我們可以翻開112年新公布的全國電力資源供需報告，在電力需求面，因應未來AI發展所需要的電力需求，未來平均每一年的平均用電成長率是2.8%，對吧？是不是？是嘛！好，可是這個數字很有趣，照去年的預估，去年你們預估成長率是2.03%，所以差了1年的預估就多了30%出來，這真的會讓人擔心你們這個數字到底是不是真的可以充足無虞？我想這也是全民的擔心。其實也不意外，畢竟AI發展真的進步很快，電力需求也會增加，只是我想要講的就是，因為看到這樣的預估變動，我們也很擔心，會不會明年預估的時候又突然增加了30%，會不會再度暴增？這樣子究竟我們未來有沒有做好充足的準備？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為這個只能推估，我們會單獨的去跟所有要做data center的公司，訪問他、拜訪他，了解他的需求……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們不是隨便就算了，也不是加減乘除算出來的。"],["廖委員偉翔：去年跟前年的預估就差了30%，這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠，這就是大家擔心的地方。","好，我繼續問下去，我們也可以看一下，117年以後，每年都有大量新增的燃氣電源併網，每年從130萬到470萬不等，我也好奇的想要問一下院長，因為上面寫的並沒有明確指名要設在哪裡，所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：上面應該有。"],["廖委員偉翔：你看一下上面寫的，它並沒有確定要蓋在哪個地方，就只有寫新增燃氣電源，6月（180），新增燃氣電源6月（120），就是這樣寫嘛！所以我想要問的是，有確定要蓋在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在2030年之前，比較主要的幾個大電廠就是大潭、通霄、興達、臺中、大林跟協和，主要是這6個電廠會增加比較多的電出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要講的……"],["卓院長榮泰：座落在哪裡都應該清楚的。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實你上面寫的有很多，我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定。我要講的就是，這不是大筆一揮就有，包含臺南，剛剛謝龍介委員也在問，這一次連臺南的綠營立委跟議長也都反對蓋電廠。我要講的事情是，其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定，因為充滿了不確定，所以還是紙上談兵；您剛剛的預估也是這樣，然後明年可能調整，這就是一個很大的問題。","另外，我想請教一下部長和院長，一台臺中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：啊？"],["廖委員偉翔：臺中中火的一台燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：臺中……"],["廖委員偉翔：55萬瓩，10部燃煤就是550萬瓩，這就是中火的燃煤機組，10部總容量550萬瓩，事實上台電即將要增設4部燃氣機組……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：就已經達到550萬瓩，所以再加上上一期計畫增設的260萬瓩，大概達到810萬瓩，在臺中中火的部分。對，你頻頻點頭，你很了解數字，換句話說，其實4部燃氣機組的發電量就可以超過現在10部燃煤機組，對吧？換句話說，其實一部燃氣機組就超過二部燃煤機組的發電量，所以之前有在講，我們不只要增一氣、減一煤，事實上應該是要增一氣、減二煤才對，對不對？以這個發電量來講是這樣，所以我想請問一下院長和部長，臺南九崴電廠還要蓋嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：九崴電廠還要不要蓋一事，我想我們的需求是存在的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，還不確定，剛剛謝龍介委員也說……"],["郭部長智輝：需求是存在的，九崴要不要繼續蓋下去，我們不知道！"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要問的是，為什麼臺南供電自給率20%，他們可以說不蓋就不蓋？那我們臺中現在蓋了還不能拆，這是覺得臺中比較「細漢」嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是喔！九崴那個不是政府……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我是要針對這件事情，你增一氣，我剛剛已經算過容量的數據……"],["郭部長智輝：臺中的部分，我們會蓋天然氣的發電機。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我問的是，我們是不是要增一氣、減二煤？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們要蓋氣拆煤啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：再蓋氣拆煤，可以馬上拆嗎？可以向我們保證嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在還沒有蓋啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：蓋好之後，你可以保證我們增一氣、拆二煤嗎？因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了，你可不可以保證？因為我是在為臺中鄉親，為中部人民發聲嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這是您的假設啦！但是我們會存留的部分，它是不會運作，但是是在備載。"],["廖委員偉翔：你確定不會運作，你要確定喔！不要到時候電不夠、電不充足的時候，你出來就把它加大火力、加大燃煤的機組，然後開始一起燒。"],["郭部長智輝：這個有很多的狀況，比如說設備突然壞了……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你不敢保證，對不對？部長，所以我只想問，你不敢保證，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能新的設備會經常壞，但是我總是要有一些備載。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，剛剛也算過了，至少就是要增一氣、拆二煤，至於為什麼不拆，我想上午你們在質詢的時候也有說到，對臺中人抱著感激與歉意，那有什麼補償措施嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣……"],["廖委員偉翔：那能不能至少承諾，113年燃煤量可以低於1,200萬噸；114年可以低於1,000萬噸；115年可以低於800萬噸；118年達到無煤臺中，可以保證嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，臺中火力發電廠，曾經是最大的火力發電廠……"],["廖委員偉翔：它就是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這麼多年以來，它對臺灣的產業發展也著實是有貢獻的，我重要的是這句話，這麼多年以來，它存在的問題，我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以不能承諾，對不對？我剛剛提的，不能承諾。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會承諾的是，會加速它的以氣換煤。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，總結來說，政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比，但是燃氣機組也越來越多，而且臺中、中南部鄉親擔心的是，到時候如果不夠的時候，當然就是火力全開嘛！排碳、空污、排好、排滿，當然你也有說地熱可以期待，可是也是不確定，所以基本上，就是這一切的不確定性非常多，可是AI又需要乾淨的電力，而且又要充足喔！","我簡單附一個報告，就是Low-Carbon Power Center網站的統計，我們的低碳電力占比17.5%，本來全球排名是第110名，明年去除核電之後就會排到第145名，也就是我們在低碳電力的部分是全球的後段班，所以這個部分真的是要加油啊！真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策，而且童子賢也說過，產業在穩定能源上面的需求，就是必須要考量核能。我想說不要再騙自己了，真的要務實，我們真的不希望在你不拆的情況之下，未來電力不足時你就是火力全開啦！那臺中人要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也是很務實的，才能說不是很快的時間就把它整個廠都拆掉，這就是務實了。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們說了，就是增一氣、拆二煤啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在增加4加2之後，保留的6部完全是備用、備援的系統。"],["廖委員偉翔：我整理了一下台電官網的資料，關於平均購電成本，111年是2.33元；112年是3.59元；到今年是3.06元；我們也可以看到核電平均是一塊多；再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半；風力也是增加的。所以核能拿掉之後，其實購電成本會增加，所以我想要請問的是，在結構不變的情況之下，好像也只有繼續漲電價，一樣的，我想問的是，有別的路嗎？可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎？可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對未來的狀況是有充分的掌握。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：漲不漲電價是審議委員會的權利。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得你這地方還滿矛盾的，剛剛也有委員問你，你說院長有交代，你們會馬上去辦。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是把環境做起來……"],["廖委員偉翔：包含凍漲等等……"],["郭部長智輝：但你問我的是漲不漲電價……"],["廖委員偉翔：我是說可不可以保證明年……"],["郭部長智輝：我跟您報告，漲不漲電價是審議委員會的決定，我們只能夠把環境做好，讓他不漲電價。"],["廖委員偉翔：簡單來講，這就是數學題。沒關係，數學題就是這樣。我想要講的是，這是錯誤的能源配比，這個能源政策基本上就是有不確定性，甚至掏空臺灣。我之前也說過，這能源政策有點像在打假球，會讓人家覺得民進黨為什麼堅持錯誤的能源政策？因為這是民進黨的發財秘笈嗎？要發國難財就要先有國難，而錯誤的能源政策導致的國難，所以就要從這裡面去發財？過去的雲豹光電你們不能不承認，此外超思雞蛋、高端弊案，還有現在的臺鹽綠能，不是都這樣嗎？這就是錯誤的能源政策從根爛起！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果你認為他們是有問題的，去告發啊！把他告發啊！為什麼不去提告呢？"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，不好意思，我是把這些東西都列出來。臺鹽綠能有沒有問題？最近不是有上新聞，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：你把他送法院啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：我要問一下院長還有農業部長，現在檢調在偵辦超思案，也以被告名義約談陳部長，但超思案關鍵人物秦語喬的女兒吳諭非還在日本，請問檢察官約談了嗎？通緝了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：檢察官……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒有，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：檢察官的任何動作我們不能在這裡答復。"],["廖委員偉翔：同樣的，柯文哲的前秘書橘子、許芷瑜同樣在日本，結果北檢火速通緝，請問院長，檢調這樣雙標調查是不是查到哪就辦到哪，不約他回來就不用查了？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員是覺得哪一件不對？"],["廖委員偉翔：我指的是雙標的部分，吳諭非的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是檢察官辦案的進度，我們無法在這裡評論。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來登記第17號賴瑞隆委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴瑞隆書面質詢：","一、台灣每年皆有颱風豪雨．山陀兒風災造成高雄災損及停電、停水，請行政院加速佈建擴大推動防災型桿線地下化，減少電力設備受風雨損壞的危險與停電影響","本(10)月初，山陀兒颱風從高雄小港登陸，損壞電線電杆等電力設施導致高屏一度高達27萬戶停電，市區的高雄前鎮、小港、旗津也超過萬戶停電，雖然多數用戶在台電公司搶修下迅速恢復供電，但也有少數個案停電4日才恢復正常，在電力影響民生至關重大的現代，大家都期望政府能做得更多、更好。","(一)過去曾投入70億推動「防災型桿線地下化」，成效有目共睹．我國電纜已有超過四成完成地下化","前行政院院長林全在2016年10月6日於行政院院會指示研究擴大推動原本的電纜地下化工程，台電公司隨後規劃在2017年到2020年間，以70億元經費推動422公里電纜地下化，當時林前院長就是考慮到颱風來襲時容易因為電杆電線等設施損壞，造成停電影響人民生命財產安全。台電公司在2020年迄今持續推動「配電系統五年（112-116）升級計畫」，其中大約有20億用在防災型杆線地下化工程，根據台電提供的資料顯示，迄2024年8月底止，我國電纜地下化的比例已經達到46.2%。","(二)屏鵝公路141公里纜線地下化能在半年時間完工．足見事在人為．請行政院大力支持減少颱風災損停電．完善高屏電纜地下化工程","蘇貞昌院長曾推動「屏鵝公路電纜地下化」，從2022年7月1日完成規劃正式啟動，到同年12月30日宣布完工，在短短的半年之內就完成了屏鵝公路共141公里的纜線地下化工程，屏鵝公路的電纜地下化工程不僅在2023年的杜蘇芮颱風造成大面積淹水的情況下，維持沿線周邊的供電，也在這次的山陀兒颱風維持優良的供電穩定。足見如果行政院有決心推動建設，有能力加速推動，本席籲請行政院加速推動我國防災型電纜地下化工程，並優先在本次山陀兒颱風受災較嚴重、停電影響範圍最廣的高屏地區優先推動，讓人民能在面對極端氣候的風雨天災時，減少停電造成的更多損失。","二、確保產業與民生用電無虞是政府別無旁貸的責任，能源政策除了持續推動減碳淨零，更重要的是維持穩定充足的電力","根據經濟部能源署《112年度全國電力資源供需報告》，政府持續開發電源、興建電廠，每一年度新增的電力機組裝置容量皆高於除役的裝置容量：","且為了因應未來台灣發展半導體、AI領域的生產應用所生的耗電增加，要持續擴增備用容量率，以應對高負載用電。","由以上的規畫可以看出，在2030年前，我國的電力供應備用容量率會持續提高，所謂的「缺電」問題並非事實，政府應告訴國人正確的資訊。","(一)核電延役、新核能須在三條件充分共識下進行討論","在野黨一直主張要讓核電延役，以解決「缺電」的問題，甚至要提案修正「核子反應器設施管制法」但事實上，這幾天因為核三廠機組歲修，我國暫時提前進入「非核家園」狀態，也沒有發生缺電的情況，那些以「缺電」名義攻擊政府能源政策，主張要恢復核電甚至擴張核電的說法，已不攻自破。政府的說法一直都具有一慣性，首先是必須合法，但若依照核子反應器設施管制法，除役五年前應送延役計畫，目前所有核電廠都已經過了這個時機；其次，沒有核安就沒有核電，這是全民的共識；第三，核廢料要能處理才能繼續推動。","(三)卓院長稱對核能新技術持開放態度，是否代表政府非核家園的政策目標發生轉變，請行政院具體說明。","日前，卓院長接受外媒彭博社專訪，國內媒體也轉述內容並下了「卓院長表示，對使用新核能非常開放」這樣的標題，甚至還整理了前後說法。本席期望行政院能有一個透明公開且一致的態度。","三、高雄有充足水電完成產業轉型，但請行政院持續改善南電北送的情況，以確保台灣的產業發展與能源穩定。","高雄市配合國家政策需要，負擔三座火力電廠，不僅足以供應市區內產業需求，甚至大量北送中北部，高雄有充足的水電可以負擔產業發展，但高雄市現在自己也在發展半導體與AI等高耗電的科技產業，加上核三廠將在2025年中除役，這些原本透過電網支援中北部的電力，將優先就近供應南高屏的需要，請行政院未來執行電源開發時，應以區域內就近供應為原則，中北部的電力需求應就近建設發電設施，合乎區域均衡發展也較能減少長距離輸送的耗損與風險。"],["主席：接下來請18號許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}