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\"end\": 221.633, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 221.633, \"end\": 221.954, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 221.954, \"end\": 222.094, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 222.094, \"end\": 222.514, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 222.514, \"end\": 222.674, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 222.674, \"end\": 222.694, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"話\"}]}, {\"start\": 223.354, \"end\": 239.388, \"text\": \"我們可以看到國發會的2050年的淨零轉型的計畫中的能源轉型你可以看到第三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣這個計畫\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 223.354, \"end\": 223.514, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 223.514, \"end\": 223.594, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 223.594, \"end\": 223.714, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 223.714, \"end\": 223.915, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 223.915, \"end\": 225.256, 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{\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 230.58, \"end\": 231.641, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 231.641, \"end\": 231.741, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 231.741, \"end\": 231.821, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 231.821, \"end\": 231.861, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 231.861, \"end\": 232.001, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 232.001, \"end\": 232.122, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 232.122, \"end\": 232.242, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 232.242, \"end\": 232.882, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 232.882, \"end\": 233.243, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"瞻\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 233.243, \"end\": 233.363, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 233.363, \"end\": 233.483, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 233.483, \"end\": 233.603, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 233.603, \"end\": 233.743, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 233.743, \"end\": 234.444, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 234.444, \"end\": 234.684, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 234.684, \"end\": 235.004, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 235.004, \"end\": 235.244, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 235.244, \"end\": 235.564, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 235.564, \"end\": 235.865, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 235.865, \"end\": 236.665, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 236.665, \"end\": 236.826, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 236.826, \"end\": 237.166, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 237.166, \"end\": 237.366, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 237.366, \"end\": 237.526, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 237.526, \"end\": 237.766, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 237.766, \"end\": 238.267, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 238.267, \"end\": 238.447, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 238.447, \"end\": 238.647, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 238.647, \"end\": 238.807, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 238.807, \"end\": 238.867, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 238.867, \"end\": 239.047, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 239.047, \"end\": 239.168, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 239.168, \"end\": 239.248, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 239.248, \"end\": 239.348, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 239.348, \"end\": 239.368, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 239.368, \"end\": 239.388, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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650.132, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 650.132, \"end\": 650.452, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 650.452, \"end\": 650.792, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 650.792, \"end\": 651.213, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 651.213, \"end\": 651.353, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 651.353, \"end\": 651.573, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 651.573, \"end\": 651.993, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 651.993, \"end\": 653.013, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 653.013, \"end\": 653.153, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 653.153, \"end\": 653.273, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 653.273, \"end\": 654.293, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 654.293, \"end\": 654.633, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 654.633, \"end\": 654.974, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 654.974, \"end\": 655.154, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 655.154, \"end\": 656.314, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 656.314, \"end\": 656.694, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 656.694, \"end\": 656.814, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 656.814, \"end\": 656.874, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 656.874, \"end\": 657.094, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 657.094, \"end\": 657.694, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 657.694, \"end\": 657.894, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 657.894, \"end\": 658.434, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 658.434, \"end\": 658.535, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 658.535, \"end\": 658.795, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 658.795, \"end\": 658.895, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 658.895, \"end\": 659.015, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 659.015, \"end\": 659.195, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 659.195, \"end\": 659.315, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 659.315, \"end\": 660.375, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 660.375, \"end\": 660.895, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 660.895, \"end\": 661.015, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 661.015, \"end\": 661.115, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 661.115, \"end\": 661.255, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 661.255, \"end\": 661.395, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 661.395, \"end\": 661.595, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 661.595, \"end\": 661.755, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 661.755, \"end\": 661.875, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 661.875, \"end\": 662.216, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 662.216, \"end\": 662.596, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 662.596, \"end\": 662.836, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 662.836, \"end\": 663.316, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 663.316, \"end\": 663.616, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 663.616, \"end\": 663.716, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 663.716, \"end\": 664.036, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 664.036, \"end\": 664.196, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 664.196, \"end\": 664.416, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 664.416, \"end\": 664.536, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 664.536, \"end\": 664.556, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 664.556, \"end\": 664.596, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 664.596, \"end\": 664.616, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 664.616, \"end\": 664.636, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 664.636, \"end\": 664.776, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 664.776, \"end\": 664.796, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 664.796, \"end\": 664.896, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 664.896, \"end\": 664.916, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 664.916, \"end\": 664.996, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 664.996, \"end\": 665.016, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 665.016, \"end\": 665.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}]}, {\"start\": 675.299, \"end\": 698.775, \"text\": \"所以說大概需要1000億度電那扣除台電自發的換算下來需要另外再購買800到900億度電那如果以剛剛那個每度5.5的平均計算的價格來看購電的費用會高達4400億到5000億元院長這是一個大錢坑啊就算我們可以做到穩定供電綠能也真的可以做到可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補所以難怪台電會虧損連連啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 675.299, \"end\": 675.419, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 675.419, \"end\": 675.739, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 675.739, \"end\": 675.919, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 675.919, \"end\": 676.1, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 676.1, \"end\": 676.26, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 676.26, 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\"end\": 694.492, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 694.492, \"end\": 694.652, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 694.652, \"end\": 694.812, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 694.812, \"end\": 695.052, \"score\": 0.637}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 695.052, \"end\": 695.152, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 695.152, \"end\": 695.252, \"score\": 0.475}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 695.252, \"end\": 695.412, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 695.412, \"end\": 695.793, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 695.793, \"end\": 695.973, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 695.973, \"end\": 696.513, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 696.513, \"end\": 696.673, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 696.673, \"end\": 696.813, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 696.813, \"end\": 696.933, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 696.933, \"end\": 697.073, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 697.073, \"end\": 697.173, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 697.173, \"end\": 697.234, \"score\": 0.354}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 697.234, \"end\": 697.394, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 697.394, \"end\": 697.534, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 697.534, \"end\": 697.634, \"score\": 0.549}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 697.634, \"end\": 697.734, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 697.734, \"end\": 697.914, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 697.914, \"end\": 698.194, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 698.194, \"end\": 698.214, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 698.214, \"end\": 698.354, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 698.354, \"end\": 698.614, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"彌\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 698.614, \"end\": 698.634, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 698.634, \"end\": 698.654, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"怪\", \"start\": 698.654, \"end\": 698.735, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 698.735, \"end\": 698.755, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"虧\"}, {\"word\": \"損\"}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 698.755, \"end\": 698.775, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 704.003, \"end\": 729.222, \"text\": \"委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表議有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 704.003, \"end\": 704.123, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 704.123, \"end\": 704.283, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"跟\", 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882.15, \"end\": 882.39, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"康\", \"start\": 882.39, \"end\": 882.41, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"（\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 883.19, \"end\": 883.451, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 883.451, \"end\": 883.471, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"（\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"韓\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 905.393, \"end\": 905.413, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,493 --> 00:00:05,577\n謝謝主席,我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長。\n\n2\n00:00:15,044 --> 00:00:34,702\n薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃\n\n3\n00:00:36,482 --> 00:01:05,035\n非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務\n\n4\n00:01:06,019 --> 00:01:24,299\n那剛剛院長講到專照環境基本法就是這個依法來行政但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守因為他沒有依照預算法93條\n\n5\n00:01:25,620 --> 00:01:36,883\n在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度\n\n6\n00:01:47,270 --> 00:02:07,546\n不過,因為我們知道這個所謂的新核能的技術,大概早上有人問過您,就是針對SMR的這個部分來去做探討。不過就我的了解,一些核能專家也提到說,這個部分,大概最快大概也需要10年的時間。那10年的時間,到時候賴清德也不是總統了,您也不會是院長。\n\n7\n00:02:08,286 --> 00:02:08,426\n主席\n\n8\n00:02:31,162 --> 00:02:56,141\n委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。\n\n9\n00:02:56,823 --> 00:03:12,723\n院長,我想藉口,是,是,我覺得就是可,要,就是有所作為的話其實是可以很快啦,當然也可以拖很久,就看這個部分我們有沒有進行很長的進行啦,那我們現在先,接下來再請教院長一下,我們看一下,就是,呃,\n\n10\n00:03:13,644 --> 00:03:42,694\n蔡政府的時候是您2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%那現在賴政府的話在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%那這樣子的這個理想我們看起來是非常的遠大你可以看到我們的這個表但是可能會造成這個缺電跟電價高漲的一個問題那如果說針對剛剛院長講的對於新核能技術是採取的開放的態度的話\n\n11\n00:03:43,354 --> 00:03:59,388\n我們可以看到國發會的2050年的淨零轉型的計畫中的能源轉型你可以看到第三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣這個計畫\n\n12\n00:04:03,527 --> 00:04:03,547\n韓國瑜議員\n\n13\n00:04:28,247 --> 00:04:53,850\n這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用\n\n14\n00:04:55,151 --> 00:04:55,171\n韓國瑜議員\n\n15\n00:05:13,826 --> 00:05:31,119\n像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%\n\n16\n00:05:33,420 --> 00:05:33,440\n兩位\n\n17\n00:06:00,646 --> 00:06:29,337\n重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是把核電現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展它已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認它就是綠電那國家當然必須有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準\n\n18\n00:06:29,557 --> 00:06:30,018\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n19\n00:06:48,860 --> 00:06:49,200\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n20\n00:07:11,853 --> 00:07:23,555\n還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出說法行政院就是依法行政\n\n21\n00:07:24,704 --> 00:07:45,032\n依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令那當然院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能我們的這個綠電的問題那我們先來看一下我們整理了出來這個表格就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度\n\n22\n00:07:47,313 --> 00:08:11,973\n那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那您可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元那以我們的112年度的核能來說的話它每一個每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元\n\n23\n00:08:13,294 --> 00:08:41,112\n也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補這個核能400億度的這個缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話核能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電大概成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後\n\n24\n00:08:41,892 --> 00:09:05,924\n如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話臺電一年要多花1760億元若用天然氣的彌補的話要多花1236億元這也是造成臺頓虧損連連的主因之一所以臺電到今年8月已經累積虧損4226億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了30幾%\n\n25\n00:09:07,265 --> 00:09:07,345\n。（10月29日（。\n\n26\n00:09:28,129 --> 00:09:55,495\n我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度您可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求\n\n27\n00:09:57,574 --> 00:10:19,496\n跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成\n\n28\n00:10:20,177 --> 00:10:22,878\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n29\n00:10:49,412 --> 00:11:05,036\n當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電\n\n30\n00:11:15,299 --> 00:11:38,775\n所以說大概需要1000億度電那扣除台電自發的換算下來需要另外再購買800到900億度電那如果以剛剛那個每度5.5的平均計算的價格來看購電的費用會高達4400億到5000億元院長這是一個大錢坑啊就算我們可以做到穩定供電綠能也真的可以做到可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補所以難怪台電會虧損連連啊\n\n31\n00:11:44,003 --> 00:12:09,222\n委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表議有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討\n\n32\n00:12:09,702 --> 00:12:35,022\n發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的\n\n33\n00:12:35,282 --> 00:12:35,382\n主席﹗\n\n34\n00:12:55,189 --> 00:13:18,878\n最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI上非常的耗電所以台電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個\n\n35\n00:13:20,182 --> 00:13:35,831\n人工智慧之島賴總統的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成那這樣的一個人員配比會導致高電價請問我們人民跟企業要怎麼來因應跟我們報告我們不只一次請台電\n\n36\n00:13:36,621 --> 00:13:53,534\n就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎\n\n37\n00:14:01,437 --> 00:14:16,797\n這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來\n\n38\n00:14:17,498 --> 00:14:42,410\n院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康\n\n39\n00:14:43,190 --> 00:14:43,471\n。（10月29日（。\n\n40\n00:15:05,393 --> 00:15:05,413\n韓國瑜議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2493\t5577\t謝謝主席,我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長。\n15044\t34702\t薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃\n36482\t65035\t非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務\n66019\t84299\t那剛剛院長講到專照環境基本法就是這個依法來行政但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守因為他沒有依照預算法93條\n85620\t96883\t在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度\n107270\t127546\t不過,因為我們知道這個所謂的新核能的技術,大概早上有人問過您,就是針對SMR的這個部分來去做探討。不過就我的了解,一些核能專家也提到說,這個部分,大概最快大概也需要10年的時間。那10年的時間,到時候賴清德也不是總統了,您也不會是院長。\n128286\t128426\t主席\n151162\t176141\t委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。 院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。\n176823\t192723\t院長,我想藉口,是,是,我覺得就是可,要,就是有所作為的話其實是可以很快啦,當然也可以拖很久,就看這個部分我們有沒有進行很長的進行啦,那我們現在先,接下來再請教院長一下,我們看一下,就是,呃,\n193644\t222694\t蔡政府的時候是您2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%那現在賴政府的話在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%那這樣子的這個理想我們看起來是非常的遠大你可以看到我們的這個表但是可能會造成這個缺電跟電價高漲的一個問題那如果說針對剛剛院長講的對於新核能技術是採取的開放的態度的話\n223354\t239388\t我們可以看到國發會的2050年的淨零轉型的計畫中的能源轉型你可以看到第三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣這個計畫\n243527\t243547\t韓國瑜議員\n268247\t293850\t這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用\n295151\t295171\t韓國瑜議員\n313826\t331119\t像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%\n333420\t333440\t兩位\n360646\t389337\t重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是把核電現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展它已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認它就是綠電那國家當然必須有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準\n389557\t390018\t二、行政院院長提出\n408860\t409200\t二、行政院院長提出\n431853\t443555\t還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出說法行政院就是依法行政\n444704\t465032\t依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令那當然院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能我們的這個綠電的問題那我們先來看一下我們整理了出來這個表格就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度\n467313\t491973\t那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那您可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元那以我們的112年度的核能來說的話它每一個每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元\n493294\t521112\t也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補這個核能400億度的這個缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話核能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電大概成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後\n521892\t545924\t如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話臺電一年要多花1760億元若用天然氣的彌補的話要多花1236億元這也是造成臺頓虧損連連的主因之一所以臺電到今年8月已經累積虧損4226億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了30幾%\n547265\t547345\t。（10月29日（。\n568129\t595495\t我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度您可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求\n597574\t619496\t跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成\n620177\t622878\t二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n649412\t665036\t當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電\n675299\t698775\t所以說大概需要1000億度電那扣除台電自發的換算下來需要另外再購買800到900億度電那如果以剛剛那個每度5.5的平均計算的價格來看購電的費用會高達4400億到5000億元院長這是一個大錢坑啊就算我們可以做到穩定供電綠能也真的可以做到可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補所以難怪台電會虧損連連啊\n704003\t729222\t委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表議有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討\n729702\t755022\t發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的\n755282\t755382\t主席﹗\n775189\t798878\t最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI上非常的耗電所以台電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個\n800182\t815831\t人工智慧之島賴總統的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成那這樣的一個人員配比會導致高電價請問我們人民跟企業要怎麼來因應跟我們報告我們不只一次請台電\n816621\t833534\t就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎\n841437\t856797\t這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來\n857498\t882410\t院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康\n883190\t883471\t。（10月29日（。\n905393\t905413\t韓國瑜議員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長。\n薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃\n非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務\n那剛剛院長講到專照環境基本法就是這個依法來行政但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守因為他沒有依照預算法93條\n在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度\n不過,因為我們知道這個所謂的新核能的技術,大概早上有人問過您,就是針對SMR的這個部分來去做探討。不過就我的了解,一些核能專家也提到說,這個部分,大概最快大概也需要10年的時間。那10年的時間,到時候賴清德也不是總統了,您也不會是院長。\n主席\n委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。 院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。\n院長,我想藉口,是,是,我覺得就是可,要,就是有所作為的話其實是可以很快啦,當然也可以拖很久,就看這個部分我們有沒有進行很長的進行啦,那我們現在先,接下來再請教院長一下,我們看一下,就是,呃,\n蔡政府的時候是您2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%那現在賴政府的話在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%那這樣子的這個理想我們看起來是非常的遠大你可以看到我們的這個表但是可能會造成這個缺電跟電價高漲的一個問題那如果說針對剛剛院長講的對於新核能技術是採取的開放的態度的話\n我們可以看到國發會的2050年的淨零轉型的計畫中的能源轉型你可以看到第三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣這個計畫\n韓國瑜議員\n這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用\n韓國瑜議員\n像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%\n兩位\n重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是把核電現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展它已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認它就是綠電那國家當然必須有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準\n二、行政院院長提出\n二、行政院院長提出\n還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出說法行政院就是依法行政\n依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令那當然院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能我們的這個綠電的問題那我們先來看一下我們整理了出來這個表格就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度\n那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那您可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元那以我們的112年度的核能來說的話它每一個每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元\n也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補這個核能400億度的這個缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話核能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電大概成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後\n如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話臺電一年要多花1760億元若用天然氣的彌補的話要多花1236億元這也是造成臺頓虧損連連的主因之一所以臺電到今年8月已經累積虧損4226億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了30幾%\n。（10月29日（。\n我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度您可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求\n跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電\n所以說大概需要1000億度電那扣除台電自發的換算下來需要另外再購買800到900億度電那如果以剛剛那個每度5.5的平均計算的價格來看購電的費用會高達4400億到5000億元院長這是一個大錢坑啊就算我們可以做到穩定供電綠能也真的可以做到可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補所以難怪台電會虧損連連啊\n委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表議有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討\n發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的\n主席﹗\n最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI上非常的耗電所以台電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個\n人工智慧之島賴總統的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成那這樣的一個人員配比會導致高電價請問我們人民跟企業要怎麼來因應跟我們報告我們不只一次請台電\n就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎\n這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來\n院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康\n。（10月29日（。\n韓國瑜議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.493 --> 00:05.577\n謝謝主席,我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長。\n\n00:15.044 --> 00:34.702\n薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃\n\n00:36.482 --> 01:05.035\n非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務\n\n01:06.019 --> 01:24.299\n那剛剛院長講到專照環境基本法就是這個依法來行政但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守因為他沒有依照預算法93條\n\n01:25.620 --> 01:36.883\n在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度\n\n01:47.270 --> 02:07.546\n不過,因為我們知道這個所謂的新核能的技術,大概早上有人問過您,就是針對SMR的這個部分來去做探討。不過就我的了解,一些核能專家也提到說,這個部分,大概最快大概也需要10年的時間。那10年的時間,到時候賴清德也不是總統了,您也不會是院長。\n\n02:08.286 --> 02:08.426\n主席\n\n02:31.162 --> 02:56.141\n委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。\n\n02:56.823 --> 03:12.723\n院長,我想藉口,是,是,我覺得就是可,要,就是有所作為的話其實是可以很快啦,當然也可以拖很久,就看這個部分我們有沒有進行很長的進行啦,那我們現在先,接下來再請教院長一下,我們看一下,就是,呃,\n\n03:13.644 --> 03:42.694\n蔡政府的時候是您2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%那現在賴政府的話在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%那這樣子的這個理想我們看起來是非常的遠大你可以看到我們的這個表但是可能會造成這個缺電跟電價高漲的一個問題那如果說針對剛剛院長講的對於新核能技術是採取的開放的態度的話\n\n03:43.354 --> 03:59.388\n我們可以看到國發會的2050年的淨零轉型的計畫中的能源轉型你可以看到第三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣這個計畫\n\n04:03.527 --> 04:03.547\n韓國瑜議員\n\n04:28.247 --> 04:53.850\n這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用\n\n04:55.151 --> 04:55.171\n韓國瑜議員\n\n05:13.826 --> 05:31.119\n像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%\n\n05:33.420 --> 05:33.440\n兩位\n\n06:00.646 --> 06:29.337\n重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是把核電現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展它已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認它就是綠電那國家當然必須有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準\n\n06:29.557 --> 06:30.018\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n06:48.860 --> 06:49.200\n二、行政院院長提出\n\n07:11.853 --> 07:23.555\n還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出說法行政院就是依法行政\n\n07:24.704 --> 07:45.032\n依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令那當然院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能我們的這個綠電的問題那我們先來看一下我們整理了出來這個表格就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度\n\n07:47.313 --> 08:11.973\n那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那您可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元那以我們的112年度的核能來說的話它每一個每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元\n\n08:13.294 --> 08:41.112\n也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補這個核能400億度的這個缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話核能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電大概成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後\n\n08:41.892 --> 09:05.924\n如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話臺電一年要多花1760億元若用天然氣的彌補的話要多花1236億元這也是造成臺頓虧損連連的主因之一所以臺電到今年8月已經累積虧損4226億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了30幾%\n\n09:07.265 --> 09:07.345\n。（10月29日（。\n\n09:28.129 --> 09:55.495\n我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度您可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求\n\n09:57.574 --> 10:19.496\n跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成\n\n10:20.177 --> 10:22.878\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n10:49.412 --> 11:05.036\n當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電\n\n11:15.299 --> 11:38.775\n所以說大概需要1000億度電那扣除台電自發的換算下來需要另外再購買800到900億度電那如果以剛剛那個每度5.5的平均計算的價格來看購電的費用會高達4400億到5000億元院長這是一個大錢坑啊就算我們可以做到穩定供電綠能也真的可以做到可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補所以難怪台電會虧損連連啊\n\n11:44.003 --> 12:09.222\n委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表議有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討\n\n12:09.702 --> 12:35.022\n發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的\n\n12:35.282 --> 12:35.382\n主席﹗\n\n12:55.189 --> 13:18.878\n最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI上非常的耗電所以台電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個\n\n13:20.182 --> 13:35.831\n人工智慧之島賴總統的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成那這樣的一個人員配比會導致高電價請問我們人民跟企業要怎麼來因應跟我們報告我們不只一次請台電\n\n13:36.621 --> 13:53.534\n就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎\n\n14:01.437 --> 14:16.797\n這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來\n\n14:17.498 --> 14:42.410\n院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康\n\n14:43.190 --> 14:43.471\n。（10月29日（。\n\n15:05.393 --> 15:05.413\n韓國瑜議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.493,"end":5.577,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長。"},{"start":15.044,"end":34.702,"text":"薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃"},{"start":36.482,"end":65.035,"text":"非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務"},{"start":66.019,"end":84.299,"text":"那剛剛院長講到專照環境基本法就是這個依法來行政但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守因為他沒有依照預算法93條"},{"start":85.62,"end":96.883,"text":"在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度"},{"start":107.27,"end":127.546,"text":"不過,因為我們知道這個所謂的新核能的技術,大概早上有人問過您,就是針對SMR的這個部分來去做探討。不過就我的了解,一些核能專家也提到說,這個部分,大概最快大概也需要10年的時間。那10年的時間,到時候賴清德也不是總統了,您也不會是院長。"},{"start":128.286,"end":128.426,"text":"主席"},{"start":151.162,"end":176.141,"text":"委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。 院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。"},{"start":176.823,"end":192.723,"text":"院長,我想藉口,是,是,我覺得就是可,要,就是有所作為的話其實是可以很快啦,當然也可以拖很久,就看這個部分我們有沒有進行很長的進行啦,那我們現在先,接下來再請教院長一下,我們看一下,就是,呃,"},{"start":193.644,"end":222.694,"text":"蔡政府的時候是您2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%那現在賴政府的話在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%那這樣子的這個理想我們看起來是非常的遠大你可以看到我們的這個表但是可能會造成這個缺電跟電價高漲的一個問題那如果說針對剛剛院長講的對於新核能技術是採取的開放的態度的話"},{"start":223.354,"end":239.388,"text":"我們可以看到國發會的2050年的淨零轉型的計畫中的能源轉型你可以看到第三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣這個計畫"},{"start":243.527,"end":243.547,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":268.247,"end":293.85,"text":"這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用"},{"start":295.151,"end":295.171,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":313.826,"end":331.119,"text":"像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%"},{"start":333.42,"end":333.44,"text":"兩位"},{"start":360.646,"end":389.337,"text":"重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是把核電現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展它已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認它就是綠電那國家當然必須有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準"},{"start":389.557,"end":390.018,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":408.86,"end":409.2,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":431.853,"end":443.555,"text":"還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出說法行政院就是依法行政"},{"start":444.704,"end":465.032,"text":"依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令那當然院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能我們的這個綠電的問題那我們先來看一下我們整理了出來這個表格就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度"},{"start":467.313,"end":491.973,"text":"那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那您可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元那以我們的112年度的核能來說的話它每一個每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元"},{"start":493.294,"end":521.112,"text":"也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補這個核能400億度的這個缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話核能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電大概成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後"},{"start":521.892,"end":545.924,"text":"如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話臺電一年要多花1760億元若用天然氣的彌補的話要多花1236億元這也是造成臺頓虧損連連的主因之一所以臺電到今年8月已經累積虧損4226億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了30幾%"},{"start":547.265,"end":547.345,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":568.129,"end":595.495,"text":"我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度您可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求"},{"start":597.574,"end":619.496,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成"},{"start":620.177,"end":622.878,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":649.412,"end":665.036,"text":"當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電"},{"start":675.299,"end":698.775,"text":"所以說大概需要1000億度電那扣除台電自發的換算下來需要另外再購買800到900億度電那如果以剛剛那個每度5.5的平均計算的價格來看購電的費用會高達4400億到5000億元院長這是一個大錢坑啊就算我們可以做到穩定供電綠能也真的可以做到可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補所以難怪台電會虧損連連啊"},{"start":704.003,"end":729.222,"text":"委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表議有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討"},{"start":729.702,"end":755.022,"text":"發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的"},{"start":755.282,"end":755.382,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":775.189,"end":798.878,"text":"最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI上非常的耗電所以台電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個"},{"start":800.182,"end":815.831,"text":"人工智慧之島賴總統的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成那這樣的一個人員配比會導致高電價請問我們人民跟企業要怎麼來因應跟我們報告我們不只一次請台電"},{"start":816.621,"end":833.534,"text":"就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎"},{"start":841.437,"end":856.797,"text":"這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來"},{"start":857.498,"end":882.41,"text":"院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康"},{"start":883.19,"end":883.471,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":905.393,"end":905.413,"text":"韓國瑜議員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":631,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（16時32分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：院長好。在今天備詢中，很多委員都提到您前幾天接受Bloomberg專訪，您提到對新核能政策採取非常開放的態度，請問我可不可以解讀成，您對於調整非核家園的政策有規劃？"],["卓院長榮泰：非核家園目前規定在環境基本法第二十三條，所以我們是朝非核家園前進的。至於非核家園的定義，如果在未來整個世界上的潮流與研究認為，所謂核能已經不是過去危險且高核廢料的核能的話，或許我們那個時候再調整，針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論。但到目前為止，我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛院長講到遵照環境基本法規定，也就是依法行政，但像禁伐補償條例是經立法院通過的，也是一個法律案，可是行政院也沒有遵守啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他們沒有依照預算法第九十三條規定，在增加歲出時要跟行政院徵詢，而且要指出資金來源，這部分並沒有履行這樣的程序。"],["許委員宇甄：對這部分希望能有一致的標準……"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是一致的標準，我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後，可以來提議。"],["許委員宇甄：請教院長，其實我們也很高興聽到您針對核能政策能有這樣非常開放的態度。至於所謂新核能技術，早上有人問過，您是針對SMR這部分來探討。就我的了解，一些核能專家也提到，這部分最快大概也需要十年時間，十年時間，到時候賴清德也不是總統了，您也不會是院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，您的政治生命是有限的，但我們的民生經濟還有產業發展是等不起十年時間的！針對這部分，既然您提到希望能夠有核安、核廢料處理及共識的問題，希望能達到這三項目標，我之前也有建議過，是不是能夠召開能源轉型的國是會議，邀請朝野各黨，大家一起共同討論、凝聚共識，院長覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以非常積極地、廣泛地跟各界溝通，但未來的能源趨勢當然不知道，新的核能源技術不知道，誠如現在我們看核三廠的問題一樣，現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展，那也是5年以後的事情，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我想這個是……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以有一句話是未來的核能解決不了今天的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：是，我覺得要有所作為的話，其實可以很快，當然也可以拖很久，就要看這個部分我們有沒有這樣的決心。"],["卓院長榮泰：核管法就是規定要5年啊！"],["許委員宇甄：接下來再請教院長，我們看一下，蔡政府時期提出2025年的能源配比是燃氣50%、燃煤30%、綠能20%，現在賴政府調整為2030年的綠能是30%，降低燃煤到20%……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣的理想看起來非常遠大，您可以看到螢幕上的這個表，但是可能也會造成缺電跟電價高漲的問題。如果是剛剛院長所講的，對於新核能技術採取開放態度的話，我們可以看到國發會2050年淨零轉型計畫中的能源轉型，在第三項前瞻能源的部分，並沒有提到核能，所以這個部分算是假議題，還是院長可以請國發會要修正這樣的計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是我們現在，這個指的有沒有核能是針對現在傳統的核能，未來新的核能技術，也許我們賦予它的是另外一種新時代的能源發展，那個時候我們就必須要機動靈活重新來調整也不一定，就端看那個技術有沒有成熟……"],["許委員宇甄：因為我們現在規劃的是2050年的淨零轉型計畫，既然這幾天院長持非常開放的態度，國發會這邊是不是可以把2050淨零轉型計畫調整？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們現在還是以多元綠能作為主軸的發展方向，最重要的原因是RE100的廠商需要的是再生能源，所以我們必須儘快補足再生能源給半導體、各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等產業使用，它的急迫性是非常高的，所以我們還是以再生能源、多元綠能為主。"],["許委員宇甄：既然剛剛有提到要以再生能源為主，不過我們知道瑞士、日本、英國也曾經想要廢核，但是為了2050淨零碳排，他們都已經更改他們的非核政策了，瑞士已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律，讓核電廠有無限制的營運許可權；日本前首相岸田文雄在2021年第6次能源基本計畫也有提到，希望在2030年日本核能發電占比可以達到20%到22%。","另外，剛剛也有提到，我們在2018年有一個以核養綠的公投，也通過了要用以核養綠的方式，現在既然瑞士、日本都已經知錯能改，也與時俱進的要改變他們的非核跟廢核政策，請問院長，我們有沒有可能跟進，把核能也納入新能源政策的發電配比？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個重點跟委員報告，第一個，若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電，如果這個共識……"],["許委員宇甄：現在很多國家都是把核電當綠電。"],["卓院長榮泰：NO！現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源，如果有一天核電的發展已經沒有安全顧慮，也沒有核廢料處理的問題，全世界都通認它就是綠電，那我們國家當然必須……"],["許委員宇甄：請問有哪一個政策是全世界都公認、全世界都通過的？請您告訴我，目前有哪一個政策？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在對於再生能源、綠電，大家是有一定的標準啊！"],["許委員宇甄：再生能源、綠電有一定標準，但是也不可能是全世界都認證通過啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：幾乎啦！所以這是……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我是覺得這個標準有點高啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是共識啦！"],["許委員宇甄：但是我想我們目的都一樣，希望臺灣能夠不缺電，也希望電價不要高漲，我想這是大家共同的目標。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要說的是，未來如果核電就是綠電，我們當然會敞開雙手，而且積極的來處理，再來……"],["許委員宇甄：所以院長是保持開放態度嗎？核電如果未來可以是綠電的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，而且現在在國內，依照核管法，我們必須在明年5月將核三廠2號機除役，除非現在法令有任何變更，我們才可以做任何其他的動作……"],["許委員宇甄：就是法律只要變更的話，就可以做這樣的動作就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在都沒有這個前提，這個前提都不在……"],["許委員宇甄：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在核電不是綠電，還有國內法令現在是如此，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：其實國內的法律要修正的話，當然我們一定可以配合來修正，行政院如果有這樣的想法，也可以提出修法啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院就是依法行政，依照程序通過的法律，行政院一定遵守。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想我們一定很樂意看到行政院遵守這樣一個法令。院長，剛剛有提到綠電的問題，我們先來看一下，我們整理出來的這個表格，就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度，我們可以看到，過去在100到103年的400億度，需要的費用大概差不多300億左右，那您可以看一下，以112年來看，再生能源每度的購電費用大概是5.5元，以112年度的核能來說的話，每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元，也就是再生能源每度購電費用大概是核能發電的5倍。如果要彌補核能發電的400億度缺口，以成本來計算的話，核能400億度電的成本大概是440億元；再生能源400億度電的成本大概高達2,200億元；天然氣如果要400億度電的話，成本大概是1,676億元。","也就是非核家園之後，如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話，台電一年要多花1,760億元，若用天然氣彌補的話，要多花1,236億元，這也是造成台電虧損連連的主因之一，所以台電到今年8月已經累積虧損4,226億了。因為這樣子的關係，所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了三十幾%，我們的產業用電也漲了六十幾%，而且今年113年還要追加預算1,000億給台電，明年還要撥補1,000億給台電。如果民進黨的能源政策已經浪費了民眾這麼多的錢，然後明年還要我們追加2,000億的話，其實這個部分我們真的無法支持。","請院長再繼續看下一個，根據經濟部對於全國用電的預測，119年我國用電度數會比113年增加515億度。您可以看到在119年，也就是2030年，我國的用電大概會達到3,343億度，請問一下，目前推動的再生能源的規劃，是不是可以彌補核一、核二、核三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年用電增長的需求？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們跟經濟部及台電有就這部分開過會，很確定他們目前針對電力的整體規劃，是有考慮到核電的停機，所以不會有太大的問題。我也趁機跟委員報告一下，為什麼核電的電價成本這麼便宜？因為核電廠建廠的折舊攤提依15年攤提，已經攤提完成，綠電還在折舊攤提的過程中。第二個事情是，核後端基金有4,000億並沒有被算到這裡面……"],["許委員宇甄：既然已經攤提完成，現在是它最便宜的時候，那為什麼我們不繼續使用？就是又最便宜，然後事實上現在世界很多國家也都公認，核電就是綠電，事實上我覺得這個部分，最困難的其實已經過了……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟您報告，我算過，核電如果建一個新廠，每度電大概也要3塊錢，但是再考慮核後端的處理費用，它應該會到4塊……"],["許委員宇甄：我們現在不用再建一個新廠，我們現在就有，只要延役就可以了。當然剛剛您提到，目前要穩定的供電，原則上沒問題。好，如果我們假設這是真實的，我們可以看一下，經濟部預估2030年臺灣需要的用電，就是剛剛講的，119年大概需要3,343億度電，如果以2030年來說，我們規劃當時的配比是30%的綠電，所以大概需要1,000億度電，扣除台電自發的，換算下來需要另外再購買800億到900億度電。如果以剛剛講的平均每度5.5元的價格來計算的話，購電的費用會高達4,400億到5,000億元。","院長，這是一個大錢坑，就算我們可以做到穩定供電，綠能也真的可以做到，可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補，難怪台電會虧損連連。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這個還要更詳細的計算，委員計算的購電的成本跟實際支出的成本，以現在來算以後的數字，我們還要再詳細的計算……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛是以112年台電所提供的預算跟決算書的資料為基準，我剛剛的表一有特別提到，這是台電提供的預算，當然之後是不是請經濟部也能夠來跟我們做一些探討？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們綠電的發電成本也是逐年在下降，所以這部分還要再精算，我們只能說到2030年……"],["許委員宇甄：好，即使讓你下降一半，也要多花個兩、三千億，這是跟核電比較起來，所以，我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多納稅的血汗錢，事實上就是因為這樣的能源政策，我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們心裡都清楚，核廢料的處理、核後端的處理金額是相當大的，這個大家不能視而不見，我們願意去面對它，但是不要視而不見。"],["許委員宇甄：那核廢料的處理是不是也是政府該負起的責任？我們也可以看，現在全世界各個國家都在使用核能，那我們也去跟他們取經，看他們如何處理核廢料，我覺得這個一定有辦法，事在人為啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：光是放乾式貯存槽的地方都產生非常大的阻礙啊！"],["許委員宇甄：最後，我想請教一下院長，事實上，賴清德總統曾經說希望推動臺灣成為人工智慧之島，但是我們都知道AI是非常的耗電，台積電的前董事長劉德音也表示，台積電在2024年的用電量大概是8%左右，未來到2030年可能會達到12%，所以請問一下賴總統講的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成？像這樣的能源配比會導致高電價，請問人民跟企業要怎麼來因應？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們不只一次請台電就未來人工智慧跟半導體所需要快速的用電、增加的用電再重新的核算，那麼幾次核算下來，台電的數字幾乎也都是一樣，認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬瓩，但是我們可以彌補的有900萬瓩。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，請問台電有告訴您這樣要多花多少錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的路徑，必須做財務的分析，那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析，順便要把台電財務的體質健全起來。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，因為現在我們在國際競爭市場面對日本、韓國，他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠、重啟核電廠或是延役核電廠，所以針對這個部分希望院長莫忘世上苦人多，現在民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策已經造成高電價、高碳排，讓人民的健康受損，還有北部缺電，我想不管是民生經濟、半導體產業、AI產業都受到影響，目前看起來唯一得利的就只有光電業、光電集團，所以請院長能夠苦民所苦，儘速的調整這個錯誤的能源政策，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會讓我們的能源政策健全發展，但是絕對不是一個錯誤，否則現在世界的大廠也不會紛紛要到臺灣來，因為臺灣有足夠的電供應給他們。"],["許委員宇甄：我想目前既然世界各地都在繼續使用核電，代表我們真的要好好的考慮，要將核電納入我們的能源配比，好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第19號莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}