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{\"start\": 532.648, \"end\": 557.271, \"text\": \"今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 532.648, \"end\": 532.828, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 532.828, \"end\": 533.309, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 533.309, \"end\": 534.85, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 534.85, \"end\": 535.07, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 535.07, \"end\": 535.271, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 535.271, \"end\": 535.431, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 535.431, \"end\": 536.452, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 536.452, \"end\": 536.612, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 536.612, \"end\": 536.712, \"score\": 0.814}, 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\"在\", \"start\": 959.562, \"end\": 959.722, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 959.722, \"end\": 959.923, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 959.923, \"end\": 959.943, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"韓\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 976.494, \"end\": 976.514, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,702 --> 00:00:15,824\n謝謝我們韓院長,有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委,還有我們經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛啊,特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員,這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來啊,\n\n2\n00:00:34,668 --> 00:01:02,831\n有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個佔比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說\n\n3\n00:01:05,100 --> 00:01:29,900\n沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想\n\n4\n00:01:32,902 --> 00:01:41,293\n就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向\n\n5\n00:01:42,934 --> 00:02:12,217\n當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們帶總統上來就我們左內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個河山廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休\n\n6\n00:02:13,018 --> 00:02:16,349\n以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐\n\n7\n00:02:18,018 --> 00:02:45,038\n郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變\n\n8\n00:02:45,987 --> 00:02:54,324\n那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破\n\n9\n00:02:55,759 --> 00:02:57,599\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n10\n00:03:22,705 --> 00:03:50,257\n政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口\n\n11\n00:03:51,704 --> 00:04:19,515\n前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個\n\n12\n00:04:21,789 --> 00:04:47,707\n政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾天報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題\n\n13\n00:04:51,391 --> 00:04:57,397\n但是我部長我要提醒院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天他36天36天俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分\n\n14\n00:05:18,496 --> 00:05:44,902\n我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。阿比較不緊張的,日本當然也緊張啦齁,他要三十六天,阿歐盟要三十至九十,阿咧你說我們八天,我們確實我們也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的這種狀況,我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?\n\n15\n00:05:45,424 --> 00:06:13,051\n未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當中它一定會增加安全儲量用什麼的途徑就是增加它的接氣站增加它的接氣槽甚至用增加船次班次的這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計畫當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難\n\n16\n00:06:15,188 --> 00:06:42,021\n以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊喔我看很多管理局啊就開始都打電話給你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我婚姻也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那\n\n17\n00:06:44,673 --> 00:06:58,143\n多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在整個內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣\n\n18\n00:07:00,948 --> 00:07:19,631\n你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎\n\n19\n00:07:21,174 --> 00:07:38,342\n報告委員因為AI的DataCenter我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣因為台灣在AI的晶片跟AI的伺服器是世界第一名所以所有的DataCenter都希望來臺灣在臺灣的電晶、相對、沒有說下跪\n\n20\n00:07:46,176 --> 00:08:06,406\n當時在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AICenter基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%\n\n21\n00:08:11,508 --> 00:08:30,520\n這是要越救越趕所以我們在對這個AI加強的量我們只能夠這個說長遠來講當然零碳是我們最重要的目標但是目前來講眼前的就是綠我們一定要放在前面這是我的選擇性我比較擔心的是\n\n22\n00:08:33,464 --> 00:08:49,601\n卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以當現看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。\n\n23\n00:08:52,648 --> 00:09:17,271\n今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔\n\n24\n00:09:18,412 --> 00:09:35,301\n還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法\n\n25\n00:09:36,838 --> 00:09:58,014\n經濟若一直發展之後,你搞不好就是重啟核電,這就是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法,你現行法律,卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔,但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。\n\n26\n00:10:00,270 --> 00:10:29,363\n因為你講的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理\n\n27\n00:10:30,083 --> 00:10:59,324\n我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆或連變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候\n\n28\n00:11:00,453 --> 00:11:03,798\n委員報告其實早上的報告裡面我們是推算到2033年\n\n29\n00:11:14,264 --> 00:11:34,856\n我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺點我認為連不要說33年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的先跟大家講2024執政完2028捏你如果有辦法跟電都不一樣經濟是很發展捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走狀態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已是不是這樣講所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠\n\n30\n00:11:43,513 --> 00:11:43,673\n主席\n\n31\n00:12:03,936 --> 00:12:04,917\n我們可以算到2040年\n\n32\n00:12:17,147 --> 00:12:19,688\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。\n\n33\n00:12:39,656 --> 00:13:06,098\n科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升力量國會主委你如果你在說\n\n34\n00:13:09,149 --> 00:13:26,355\n全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、谷歌或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小,我們真的小\n\n35\n00:13:28,456 --> 00:13:29,316\n以那個部分他也不是綠電他\n\n36\n00:13:54,485 --> 00:14:16,697\n也有剛我提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨\n\n37\n00:14:17,961 --> 00:14:34,208\n都要去面對,國民黨的講法是跟你講說,你政府我就跟你說,你重啓核電,他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣,啓下去就叫做重啓,他不知道一個發電廠,它的廚藝料,要重啓,保證幾檔?25檔嗎?最快要幾檔?要重啓的話,差不多要3點5到5檔。3點5到5檔,真的還可以訂用,真的這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣,你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?\n\n38\n00:14:48,288 --> 00:14:48,548\n應該是這樣報告委員\n\n39\n00:15:16,391 --> 00:15:16,411\n韓國瑜議員\n\n40\n00:15:39,232 --> 00:15:59,943\n韓國瑜主席說:「你如果要重啟你的所在,你自己也不要擔心民眾。」不過這個是一個大問題,我是期待我剛提到的問題。整個的問題,我是覺得,不管是國民黨也好,不管是民進黨也好,提出這樣的一個問題的人,其實都是擔心臺灣政府的經濟未來的發展。他們講這個能源配比,跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤,他是在告訴你,\n\n41\n00:16:16,494 --> 00:16:16,514\n韓國瑜議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6702\t15824\t謝謝我們韓院長,有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委,還有我們經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛啊,特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員,這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來啊,\n34668\t62831\t有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個佔比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說\n65100\t89900\t沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想\n92902\t101293\t就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向\n102934\t132217\t當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們帶總統上來就我們左內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個河山廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休\n133018\t136349\t以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐\n138018\t165038\t郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變\n165987\t174324\t那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破\n175759\t177599\t二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n202705\t230257\t政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口\n231704\t259515\t前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個\n261789\t287707\t政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾天報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題\n291391\t297397\t但是我 部長我要提醒 院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天他36天36天 俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分\n318496\t344902\t我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。阿比較不緊張的,日本當然也緊張啦齁,他要三十六天,阿歐盟要三十至九十,阿咧你說我們八天,我們確實我們也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的這種狀況,我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?\n345424\t373051\t未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當中它一定會增加安全儲量用什麼的途徑就是增加它的接氣站增加它的接氣槽甚至用增加船次班次的這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計畫當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難\n375188\t402021\t以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊喔我看很多管理局啊就開始都打電話給你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我婚姻也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那\n404673\t418143\t多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在整個內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣\n420948\t439631\t你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎\n441174\t458342\t報告委員因為AI的Data Center我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣因為台灣在AI的晶片跟AI的伺服器是世界第一名所以所有的Data Center都希望來臺灣在臺灣的電晶、相對、沒有說下跪\n466176\t486406\t當時在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AI Center基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%\n491508\t510520\t這是要越救越趕所以我們在對這個AI加強的量我們只能夠這個說長遠來講當然零碳是我們最重要的目標但是目前來講眼前的就是綠我們一定要放在前面這是我的選擇性我比較擔心的是\n513464\t529601\t卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以當現看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。\n532648\t557271\t今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔\n558412\t575301\t還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法\n576838\t598014\t經濟若一直發展之後,你搞不好就是重啟核電,這就是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法,你現行法律,卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔,但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。\n600270\t629363\t因為你講的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理\n630083\t659324\t我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆或連變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候\n660453\t663798\t委員報告其實早上的報告裡面我們是推算到2033年\n674264\t694856\t我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺點我認為連不要說33年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的先跟大家講2024執政完2028捏你如果有辦法跟電都不一樣經濟是很發展捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走狀態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已是不是這樣講所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠\n703513\t703673\t主席\n723936\t724917\t我們可以算到2040年\n737147\t739688\t二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。\n759656\t786098\t科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升力量國會主委你如果你在說\n789149\t806355\t全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、谷歌或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小,我們真的小\n808456\t809316\t以那個部分他也不是綠電他\n834485\t856697\t也有剛我提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨\n857961\t874208\t都要去面對,國民黨的講法是跟你講說,你政府我就跟你說,你重啓核電,他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣,啓下去就叫做重啓,他不知道一個發電廠,它的廚藝料,要重啓,保證幾檔?25檔嗎?最快要幾檔?要重啓的話,差不多要3點5到5檔。3點5到5檔,真的還可以訂用,真的這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣,你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?\n888288\t888548\t應該是這樣報告委員\n916391\t916411\t韓國瑜議員\n939232\t959943\t韓國瑜主席說:「你如果要重啟你的所在,你自己也不要擔心民眾。」不過這個是一個大問題,我是期待我剛提到的問題。整個的問題,我是覺得,不管是國民黨也好,不管是民進黨也好,提出這樣的一個問題的人,其實都是擔心臺灣政府的經濟未來的發展。他們講這個能源配比,跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤,他是在告訴你,\n976494\t976514\t韓國瑜議員\n","txt":"謝謝我們韓院長,有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委,還有我們經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛啊,特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員,這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來啊,\n有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個佔比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說\n沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想\n就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向\n當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們帶總統上來就我們左內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個河山廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休\n以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐\n郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變\n那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口\n前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個\n政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾天報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題\n但是我 部長我要提醒 院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天他36天36天 俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分\n我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。阿比較不緊張的,日本當然也緊張啦齁,他要三十六天,阿歐盟要三十至九十,阿咧你說我們八天,我們確實我們也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的這種狀況,我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?\n未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當中它一定會增加安全儲量用什麼的途徑就是增加它的接氣站增加它的接氣槽甚至用增加船次班次的這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計畫當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難\n以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊喔我看很多管理局啊就開始都打電話給你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我婚姻也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那\n多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在整個內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣\n你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎\n報告委員因為AI的Data Center我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣因為台灣在AI的晶片跟AI的伺服器是世界第一名所以所有的Data Center都希望來臺灣在臺灣的電晶、相對、沒有說下跪\n當時在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AI Center基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%\n這是要越救越趕所以我們在對這個AI加強的量我們只能夠這個說長遠來講當然零碳是我們最重要的目標但是目前來講眼前的就是綠我們一定要放在前面這是我的選擇性我比較擔心的是\n卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以當現看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。\n今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔\n還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法\n經濟若一直發展之後,你搞不好就是重啟核電,這就是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法,你現行法律,卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔,但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。\n因為你講的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理\n我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆或連變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候\n委員報告其實早上的報告裡面我們是推算到2033年\n我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺點我認為連不要說33年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的先跟大家講2024執政完2028捏你如果有辦法跟電都不一樣經濟是很發展捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走狀態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已是不是這樣講所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠\n主席\n我們可以算到2040年\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。\n科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升力量國會主委你如果你在說\n全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、谷歌或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小,我們真的小\n以那個部分他也不是綠電他\n也有剛我提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨\n都要去面對,國民黨的講法是跟你講說,你政府我就跟你說,你重啓核電,他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣,啓下去就叫做重啓,他不知道一個發電廠,它的廚藝料,要重啓,保證幾檔?25檔嗎?最快要幾檔?要重啓的話,差不多要3點5到5檔。3點5到5檔,真的還可以訂用,真的這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣,你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?\n應該是這樣報告委員\n韓國瑜議員\n韓國瑜主席說:「你如果要重啟你的所在,你自己也不要擔心民眾。」不過這個是一個大問題,我是期待我剛提到的問題。整個的問題,我是覺得,不管是國民黨也好,不管是民進黨也好,提出這樣的一個問題的人,其實都是擔心臺灣政府的經濟未來的發展。他們講這個能源配比,跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤,他是在告訴你,\n韓國瑜議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.702 --> 00:15.824\n謝謝我們韓院長,有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委,還有我們經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛啊,特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員,這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來啊,\n\n00:34.668 --> 01:02.831\n有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個佔比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說\n\n01:05.100 --> 01:29.900\n沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想\n\n01:32.902 --> 01:41.293\n就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向\n\n01:42.934 --> 02:12.217\n當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們帶總統上來就我們左內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個河山廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休\n\n02:13.018 --> 02:16.349\n以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐\n\n02:18.018 --> 02:45.038\n郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變\n\n02:45.987 --> 02:54.324\n那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破\n\n02:55.759 --> 02:57.599\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。\n\n03:22.705 --> 03:50.257\n政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口\n\n03:51.704 --> 04:19.515\n前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個\n\n04:21.789 --> 04:47.707\n政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾天報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題\n\n04:51.391 --> 04:57.397\n但是我部長我要提醒院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天他36天36天俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分\n\n05:18.496 --> 05:44.902\n我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。阿比較不緊張的,日本當然也緊張啦齁,他要三十六天,阿歐盟要三十至九十,阿咧你說我們八天,我們確實我們也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的這種狀況,我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?\n\n05:45.424 --> 06:13.051\n未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當中它一定會增加安全儲量用什麼的途徑就是增加它的接氣站增加它的接氣槽甚至用增加船次班次的這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計畫當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難\n\n06:15.188 --> 06:42.021\n以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊喔我看很多管理局啊就開始都打電話給你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我婚姻也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那\n\n06:44.673 --> 06:58.143\n多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在整個內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣\n\n07:00.948 --> 07:19.631\n你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎\n\n07:21.174 --> 07:38.342\n報告委員因為AI的DataCenter我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣因為台灣在AI的晶片跟AI的伺服器是世界第一名所以所有的DataCenter都希望來臺灣在臺灣的電晶、相對、沒有說下跪\n\n07:46.176 --> 08:06.406\n當時在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AICenter基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%\n\n08:11.508 --> 08:30.520\n這是要越救越趕所以我們在對這個AI加強的量我們只能夠這個說長遠來講當然零碳是我們最重要的目標但是目前來講眼前的就是綠我們一定要放在前面這是我的選擇性我比較擔心的是\n\n08:33.464 --> 08:49.601\n卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以當現看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。\n\n08:52.648 --> 09:17.271\n今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔\n\n09:18.412 --> 09:35.301\n還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法\n\n09:36.838 --> 09:58.014\n經濟若一直發展之後,你搞不好就是重啟核電,這就是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法,你現行法律,卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔,但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。\n\n10:00.270 --> 10:29.363\n因為你講的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理\n\n10:30.083 --> 10:59.324\n我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆或連變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候\n\n11:00.453 --> 11:03.798\n委員報告其實早上的報告裡面我們是推算到2033年\n\n11:14.264 --> 11:34.856\n我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺點我認為連不要說33年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的先跟大家講2024執政完2028捏你如果有辦法跟電都不一樣經濟是很發展捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走狀態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已是不是這樣講所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠\n\n11:43.513 --> 11:43.673\n主席\n\n12:03.936 --> 12:04.917\n我們可以算到2040年\n\n12:17.147 --> 12:19.688\n二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。\n\n12:39.656 --> 13:06.098\n科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升力量國會主委你如果你在說\n\n13:09.149 --> 13:26.355\n全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、谷歌或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小,我們真的小\n\n13:28.456 --> 13:29.316\n以那個部分他也不是綠電他\n\n13:54.485 --> 14:16.697\n也有剛我提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨\n\n14:17.961 --> 14:34.208\n都要去面對,國民黨的講法是跟你講說,你政府我就跟你說,你重啓核電,他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣,啓下去就叫做重啓,他不知道一個發電廠,它的廚藝料,要重啓,保證幾檔?25檔嗎?最快要幾檔?要重啓的話,差不多要3點5到5檔。3點5到5檔,真的還可以訂用,真的這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣,你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?\n\n14:48.288 --> 14:48.548\n應該是這樣報告委員\n\n15:16.391 --> 15:16.411\n韓國瑜議員\n\n15:39.232 --> 15:59.943\n韓國瑜主席說:「你如果要重啟你的所在,你自己也不要擔心民眾。」不過這個是一個大問題,我是期待我剛提到的問題。整個的問題,我是覺得,不管是國民黨也好,不管是民進黨也好,提出這樣的一個問題的人,其實都是擔心臺灣政府的經濟未來的發展。他們講這個能源配比,跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤,他是在告訴你,\n\n16:16.494 --> 16:16.514\n韓國瑜議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.702,"end":15.824,"text":"謝謝我們韓院長,有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委,還有我們經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛啊,特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員,這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來啊,"},{"start":34.668,"end":62.831,"text":"有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個佔比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說"},{"start":65.1,"end":89.9,"text":"沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想"},{"start":92.902,"end":101.293,"text":"就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向"},{"start":102.934,"end":132.217,"text":"當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們帶總統上來就我們左內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個河山廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休"},{"start":133.018,"end":136.349,"text":"以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐"},{"start":138.018,"end":165.038,"text":"郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變"},{"start":165.987,"end":174.324,"text":"那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破"},{"start":175.759,"end":177.599,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":202.705,"end":230.257,"text":"政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口"},{"start":231.704,"end":259.515,"text":"前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個"},{"start":261.789,"end":287.707,"text":"政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾天報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題"},{"start":291.391,"end":297.397,"text":"但是我 部長我要提醒 院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天他36天36天 俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分"},{"start":318.496,"end":344.902,"text":"我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。阿比較不緊張的,日本當然也緊張啦齁,他要三十六天,阿歐盟要三十至九十,阿咧你說我們八天,我們確實我們也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的這種狀況,我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":345.424,"end":373.051,"text":"未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當中它一定會增加安全儲量用什麼的途徑就是增加它的接氣站增加它的接氣槽甚至用增加船次班次的這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計畫當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難"},{"start":375.188,"end":402.021,"text":"以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊喔我看很多管理局啊就開始都打電話給你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我婚姻也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那"},{"start":404.673,"end":418.143,"text":"多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在整個內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣"},{"start":420.948,"end":439.631,"text":"你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎"},{"start":441.174,"end":458.342,"text":"報告委員因為AI的Data Center我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣因為台灣在AI的晶片跟AI的伺服器是世界第一名所以所有的Data Center都希望來臺灣在臺灣的電晶、相對、沒有說下跪"},{"start":466.176,"end":486.406,"text":"當時在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AI Center基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%"},{"start":491.508,"end":510.52,"text":"這是要越救越趕所以我們在對這個AI加強的量我們只能夠這個說長遠來講當然零碳是我們最重要的目標但是目前來講眼前的就是綠我們一定要放在前面這是我的選擇性我比較擔心的是"},{"start":513.464,"end":529.601,"text":"卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以當現看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。"},{"start":532.648,"end":557.271,"text":"今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔"},{"start":558.412,"end":575.301,"text":"還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法"},{"start":576.838,"end":598.014,"text":"經濟若一直發展之後,你搞不好就是重啟核電,這就是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法,你現行法律,卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔,但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。"},{"start":600.27,"end":629.363,"text":"因為你講的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理"},{"start":630.083,"end":659.324,"text":"我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆或連變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候"},{"start":660.453,"end":663.798,"text":"委員報告其實早上的報告裡面我們是推算到2033年"},{"start":674.264,"end":694.856,"text":"我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺點我認為連不要說33年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的先跟大家講2024執政完2028捏你如果有辦法跟電都不一樣經濟是很發展捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走狀態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已是不是這樣講所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠"},{"start":703.513,"end":703.673,"text":"主席"},{"start":723.936,"end":724.917,"text":"我們可以算到2040年"},{"start":737.147,"end":739.688,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":759.656,"end":786.098,"text":"科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升力量國會主委你如果你在說"},{"start":789.149,"end":806.355,"text":"全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、谷歌或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小,我們真的小"},{"start":808.456,"end":809.316,"text":"以那個部分他也不是綠電他"},{"start":834.485,"end":856.697,"text":"也有剛我提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨"},{"start":857.961,"end":874.208,"text":"都要去面對,國民黨的講法是跟你講說,你政府我就跟你說,你重啓核電,他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣,啓下去就叫做重啓,他不知道一個發電廠,它的廚藝料,要重啓,保證幾檔?25檔嗎?最快要幾檔?要重啓的話,差不多要3點5到5檔。3點5到5檔,真的還可以訂用,真的這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣,你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?"},{"start":888.288,"end":888.548,"text":"應該是這樣報告委員"},{"start":916.391,"end":916.411,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":939.232,"end":959.943,"text":"韓國瑜主席說:「你如果要重啟你的所在,你自己也不要擔心民眾。」不過這個是一個大問題,我是期待我剛提到的問題。整個的問題,我是覺得,不管是國民黨也好,不管是民進黨也好,提出這樣的一個問題的人,其實都是擔心臺灣政府的經濟未來的發展。他們講這個能源配比,跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤,他是在告訴你,"},{"start":976.494,"end":976.514,"text":"韓國瑜議員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":699,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（16時48分）謝謝韓院長，有請行政院卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有國發會主委。"],["主席：劉主委請備詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長好，我剛剛特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員這樣一輪質詢下來，我有一個感觸，就是在這麼多國民黨委員的質詢裡面，今天我們整個能源的占比該怎麼樣來分配，國民黨委員的想法確實是認為對於核能，現在這個政府如果是負責任的，你就必須要去把它重啟，他會舉瑞士為例、舉好多的國家為例來跟你講，當然我相信他也不是惡意，他就是認為如果沒有核能的話，電價就會飆高，台電會去買更多的電進來，然後政府要補貼，國民黨委員幾乎是這個意思。他到最後跟你說，院長雖然說整個核管法裡面有規定，你必須要依法來行政，國民黨委員甚至拍胸脯跟你講會配合來修法。我一直這樣想，就是從2016年蔡英文總統上任、民進黨重新執政以後，民進黨政府啟動了能源的轉型，確立了非核家園的政策方向，你去看在當初這樣的配比裡面，在2016年核能是12%，燃煤是45%、天然氣是32%、再生能源是4.8%。到了2024年，就是現在，520蔡總統卸任，賴總統上來卓內閣開始的時候，你看核能是到5.4%，燃煤40%，天然氣41%，再生能源10%。以今天來看的話，核三廠一號機已經停機，二號機現在又在歲修，臺灣的核電廠核能是0%。郭部長，我這樣講，對嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我就有一個想法，若從這兩個時間軸去看，你會發現再生能源跟替代能源確實成長了不少，但以現在臺灣來看的話，我們確實也面臨一些問題。今天我看到台達電的創辦人跟部長一樣都是企業界的，他說臺灣非用核電不可，他甚至認為錯誤的政策必須要改變；卓院長的回復也很妙，你的回復就是說，你不能去……你那一句話是說，不能去突破……就是說不能去違法來施政，類似這樣子；而AIT處長谷立言則說，台積電會到美國去投資是因為我們沒有辦法給它足夠的綠能。以這樣來看的話，就企業的看法或者民間的看法，跟政府的說法是有一點落差，但是整個國家的安全跟經濟的發展，我相信從這兩個面向去看的話，政府就這兩大命題是責無旁貸，所以我要就教三個問題，院長，我們現在來看的話，現在非核家園的推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的重視，跟展現臺灣對國際綠色能源趨勢接軌的決心。可是我們也看到了，你說臺灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口，前一陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演，現在改變方式了，它用封鎖這樣的方式，民眾可能就會想到，一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話，我們的能源確實會面臨很大的風險，臺灣又處在整個國際上政治風險比較高的地區，如何維持穩定跟安全能源的供應，我看政府真的確實該未雨綢繆，為什麼呢？第一個想到的就是面對軍演的時候，我想就教郭部長的是，能源進口的儲存量到底是幾天？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們名目上面就是你在上面所寫的，天然氣就是8天。"],["莊委員瑞雄：8天。"],["郭部長智輝：煤炭就是42天，但是我們不能夠講太詳細，這個應該是國安問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是部長，我要提醒你，院長，我要提醒的是，我們隔壁的日本是幾天？36天；俄烏戰爭的時候，歐盟跟它的會員國說對於能源的儲備，是30到60天。那我今天講的就是說，臺灣本身如何進一步提升儲備能源的天數？我看到這個部分跟別人比較，還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人比較，我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方，比較不緊張的……日本當然也緊張，它要36天，歐盟要30至90天，而我們的話，你說我們是8天，確實我們也要未雨綢繆去因應這種突發的狀況，我不曉得院長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來我們會持續增加我們的安全儲量，而這個數字，當然我們現在是在研議的過程當中，一定會增加安全儲量，至於用什麼途徑？就是增加它的接氣站、增加它的接氣槽，甚至用增加船次、班次來增加我們的量，這個都在未來的計畫當中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個政府應該都責無旁貸。另外，剛剛國民黨委員提到，核電確實是個兩難，以今天臺灣的用電量來看，全國都沒有核電，屏東核三廠的二號機現在在歲修，可是我們碰到一個問題，你說先前輝達說要在臺灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心，我看很多縣市長就開始打電話跟郭部長說，這裡要、雲林也要、彰化也要、大家都要，好康的大家都要。但是這也凸顯一個問題，都設在臺灣以後，誠如郭部長你講的，2030年之前可能還有10座資料中心會在臺灣設置。卓院長，你說你們現在整個內閣團隊叫做AI內閣，這個AI數據中心，科技一直在發展，帶動整個臺灣經濟發展，國人都樂於見到，但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友擔心的，供電如何穩定？部長，2030你們真的那麼有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，有關AI的data center，我想每一個世界大廠都想要接近臺灣，因為臺灣的AI晶片跟AI伺服器是世界第一名，所以所有的data center都希望過來臺灣，這是第一。第二，臺灣的電費相對沒有那麼貴，是電的量夠不夠，然後是綠電，現在AI center基本上都希望是綠電，所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應。包括到目前為止我們提升……剛剛有一個數字，行政院的數字就是我們希望現在綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%，這個是要越拉越高。所以在對AI加強的量，我們只能夠……長遠來講，當然零碳是我們最重要的目標，但是目前來講，眼前的就是綠一定要放在前面，這是選擇性的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我比較擔心的是，卓院長的談話，我也看到了，你說到2030年之前，這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的發展……"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：2030年之前供電無虞，這是你可以拍胸脯的！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但本席的看法是，我覺得這個氣魄不夠。今年是2024，到2030年只剩下五年多而已。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一個能源政策的規劃哪只有五年多？可以想像10座資料跟數據中心到臺灣來，然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技發展、各個行業的發展，用電量確實還是會再增加！還是會再增加喔！我一直在想，今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚，民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚，所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的主張，他們的主張就是你沒辦法啦！經濟如果一直發展，到最後你就是重啟核電，這是國民黨的主張！國民黨的主張就是，現行法律──核管法，卓榮泰院長不用擔心，國民黨可以幫你解套，這是站在整個經濟發展的態度，我是可以接受。但問題是他沒有考慮到一點，就是院長在說的但書就比較多啦！那就是核廢料要有辦法處理、核能安全也要有辦法全部確保，這當然啦！每一個國民在這個島上，在這個國家安身立命，如果說為了經濟的發展、電力的穩定供電，然後到最後，核廢料沒辦法處理、核安沒有辦法去保證，民眾嚇都給嚇死了！所以你才會說有新的科技，如果到最後可以確保做這些處理，政府是可以持比較開放的態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是我又擔心了，我面對這個問題，我是屬於民進黨的基本教義派，可是我面對這個問題，我也是很大的衝擊啊！說到經濟，你說今年的總預算規模是3兆，卓內閣拚！郭部長硬去招商！明年變4兆、後年變5兆、6兆，搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去，確實是到最後，如果不夠電的時候、假設不夠電的時候，院長要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，其實早上的報告裡面，我們是推算到2033年，我們有增加了17.86GW，是沒有缺電的，但是我們保守的……　"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長，我認為不要說2033年，2033年我也覺得沒有氣魄啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是保守的先跟大家說。"],["莊委員瑞雄：2024年，執政完是2028，你如果有辦法讓電都夠，經濟很發展，那叫做連任到2032，那個時候你就手拿扇子說：我卓榮泰也要選總統，不是只有韓國瑜可以選而已！不是這樣說嗎？所以你說到2033，我也覺得氣魄不夠！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為未來的幾年會有一個比較革命性的發展，我們現在密切注意這種趨勢，但是我跟委員報告，我們現在計畫、時程大概都有，只要給我們充裕的時間、合理的預算，大院強力的監督，全民一起努力，我們可以達到這個目標。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個民進黨一定沒問題啦。"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是只有2033啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：韓院長，你要幫忙啦，不要一直笑，要支持行政院，他們要拚經濟，我們當然要支持啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以算到2040年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，這樣你們就輪流選總統了。"],["郭部長智輝：2040年，就是說要怎麼讓臺灣可以變成在AI方面世界第一強的國家，電的部分當然我們要考慮，但是我跟委員報告，據我們現在觀察，最新的科技技術、最新的發電技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定了，所以我們現在不敢亂講，還是要看科學數據的發展，所以我們現在只算到2033年，但是我相信2030年的時候，這個世界會有一個非常大的改變。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我是擔心啦，像我們要提升綠能，國發會主委也在說，全世界加入RE100的有超過400家企業，臺灣也有19家，不管是蘋果、Google或台積，綠電的需求會越來越高，可是你如果從太陽能光電來看的話，臺灣的面積確實比較小，我們真的小，可以用的土地很多都已經做了規劃，良田你也不可能做太陽能，你說離岸風電這部分確實也有在用，它可以繼續發展，但那也有衝擊環境的問題，建置費用也高，接下來就整個替代能源的部分來看，其實那個部分也不是綠電，也有剛剛我提到的那些能源怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題，你說幾接、幾接，到最後也會衝擊到環境，甚至會有政治上抗爭的問題，所以這是一個大哉問，這是全國各個政黨都要去面對的。國民黨的講法是，要政府重啟核電，他們覺得好像重啟核電是試了之後就叫做重啟，他們不知道一個發電廠除役之後要重啟要幾年，部長，25年嘛！最快要幾年？"],["郭部長智輝：要重啟的話，差不多要3.5到5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：3.5到5年，真的還可以重用？真的這麼快嗎？你們給我的數據倒不是這樣，你認為一座核電廠重啟真的3到5年就可以？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，如果要重啟，核一、核二、核四都廢掉了，只有核三，但是核三明年也要除役，萬一重啟，你們心中的想像會是在哪裡？萬一真的沒辦法了，要重新再回頭去擁抱核能了，你們心目中想像的會在北部還是南部？先說好哦！不要再來南部了，我們已經講了好幾年了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我的建議是這樣，就是現在的區域經濟學開始被討論，我們民主聯盟國家可以互相支援，特別是能源的部分，可以看得到，現在有很多綠色的能源，特別是在歐洲，非常多國跟國之間大家互相支援。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是臺灣就那麼小啊！你只有核一、核二、核三、核四啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思就是說……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你如果要重啟，你去選別的地方，不要選屏東，可以嗎？不過，這是一個大問題啦，我期待我剛剛提到的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個非常嚴肅的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，整個問題，我是覺得不管是國民黨也好，不管是民進黨也好，提出這樣一個問題的人，其實都是擔心臺灣經濟未來的發展，他們講能源配比，跟你講能源政策錯誤，他是在誇獎你們啦，說你們很厲害，你們未來很會發展經濟，經濟會很好，民進黨會繼續執政啦，所以會缺電啦！微言大意幾乎是這樣子。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那是我講的啦，問題就是我們自己也要拿出我們的方法來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然，到時候要怎麼辦？好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長和部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第20號的林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}