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{\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 49.418, \"end\": 49.978, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 49.978, \"end\": 50.139, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 50.139, \"end\": 50.899, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 50.899, \"end\": 51.2, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 51.2, \"end\": 51.94, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 51.94, \"end\": 52.181, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 52.181, \"end\": 52.501, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 52.501, \"end\": 52.941, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 52.941, \"end\": 53.162, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 53.162, \"end\": 53.682, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 53.682, \"end\": 55.304, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 55.304, \"end\": 55.644, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 55.644, \"end\": 55.844, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 55.844, \"end\": 55.964, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 55.964, \"end\": 56.125, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 56.125, \"end\": 56.505, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 56.505, \"end\": 56.885, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 56.885, \"end\": 57.806, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"遺\"}, {\"word\": \"址\", \"start\": 57.806, \"end\": 58.607, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 58.607, \"end\": 58.787, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 58.787, \"end\": 59.188, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 59.188, \"end\": 59.428, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 59.428, 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62.991, \"end\": 63.392, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 63.392, \"end\": 63.512, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 63.512, \"end\": 63.592, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 63.592, \"end\": 63.772, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"伸\", \"start\": 63.772, \"end\": 63.792, \"score\": 0.057}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 64.633, \"end\": 66.754, \"text\": \"所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 64.633, \"end\": 64.653, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 64.653, \"end\": 64.673, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 64.673, \"end\": 64.833, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 64.833, \"end\": 66.014, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 66.014, \"end\": 66.154, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 66.154, \"end\": 66.234, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 100.882, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 100.882, \"end\": 100.942, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 100.942, \"end\": 100.962, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 102.103, \"end\": 119.504, \"text\": \"會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 102.103, \"end\": 102.283, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 102.283, \"end\": 102.464, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 102.464, \"end\": 102.644, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 102.644, \"end\": 102.864, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 102.864, \"end\": 103.245, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 103.245, \"end\": 103.385, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 103.385, \"end\": 103.505, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 103.505, \"end\": 103.845, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 103.845, \"end\": 104.046, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 104.046, \"end\": 105.067, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 105.067, \"end\": 105.327, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 105.327, \"end\": 105.648, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 105.648, \"end\": 106.088, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 106.088, \"end\": 106.348, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 106.348, \"end\": 106.609, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 106.609, \"end\": 107.189, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 107.189, \"end\": 107.69, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 107.69, \"end\": 107.93, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 107.93, 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\"那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下。我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係。你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係。我沒有說延伸我是說他結束。來來來主席時間暫停一下。要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊。是。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 120.365, \"end\": 120.585, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 120.585, \"end\": 120.705, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 120.705, \"end\": 120.865, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 120.865, \"end\": 121.405, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 121.405, \"end\": 121.686, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"借\", \"start\": 121.686, \"end\": 122.266, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"屍\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"魂\", \"start\": 122.266, \"end\": 122.406, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 122.406, \"end\": 122.506, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 122.506, \"end\": 122.686, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"念\", \"start\": 122.686, \"end\": 123.486, \"score\": 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606.114, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 606.114, \"end\": 606.234, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 606.234, \"end\": 606.314, \"score\": 0.578}, {\"word\": \"靈\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 606.314, \"end\": 606.414, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 606.414, \"end\": 606.434, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 606.434, \"end\": 606.454, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,169 --> 00:00:11,656\n委員直巡。好主席謝謝麻煩請李部長請李部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,610 --> 00:00:40,149\n主席,你好。主席,你好。好,本席剛剛特別聆聽您的這個草案內容跟立法目的,其中講到說空間文、活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述有助於促進社會溝通反省、建立保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍的社會。那我想請教,促轉條例\n\n3\n00:00:41,650 --> 00:01:03,792\n之前在2022年的5月也正式解編了因為他任務行嘛兩年那後來延長了各延長一次再兩年也在2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編我們現在所要推動的這個不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係還是他是促轉條例的延伸嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:04,633 --> 00:01:06,754\n所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸?\n\n5\n00:01:26,287 --> 00:01:40,962\n我們有看到說不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項要成立審議會明定成員資格組成資格那我想請教一下現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了\n\n6\n00:01:42,103 --> 00:01:59,504\n會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員\n\n7\n00:02:00,365 --> 00:02:25,174\n那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下。我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係。你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係。我沒有說延伸我是說他結束。來來來主席時間暫停一下。要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊。是。\n\n8\n00:02:27,068 --> 00:02:44,426\n主席可不可以時間暫停一下因為剛部長我在兩分鐘前問說是不是延伸他講說是是促轉會之後下來然後交給文化部的工作那現在又講說完全毫無關係這樣子好不好這前言後語對不著欸我們在精神上是延伸可是在法律上我們從新開始\n\n9\n00:02:45,487 --> 00:02:57,678\n精神上延伸,法律重新開始。精神上延伸,法律重新開始,代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立,對不對?\n\n10\n00:02:59,542 --> 00:03:15,352\n他這個結束以後交給每一個部門有新的東西是那精神上是延伸的精神上延伸但法律重新調整因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛對沒錯謝謝部長部長非常好開宗明義很開放的態度那我們就想請教\n\n11\n00:03:16,792 --> 00:03:29,361\n保障人權守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍觀今一見古無古不曾經過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘可以原諒但絕對不能遺忘對吧當然就是我們的目的不要遺忘我們要面對真相部長那請教一下民國38年以前在台灣這塊土地上面在民國38年也是中華民國的一個\n\n12\n00:03:45,714 --> 00:03:45,914\n議員范雲等\n\n13\n00:04:09,295 --> 00:04:37,278\n台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來\n\n14\n00:04:38,598 --> 00:04:41,500\n一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安婦2023年92歲離開了。\n\n15\n00:04:45,885 --> 00:05:12,317\n二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤\n\n16\n00:05:13,718 --> 00:05:31,885\n而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權館2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看\n\n17\n00:05:33,735 --> 00:05:45,563\n以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論?\n\n18\n00:05:46,957 --> 00:06:11,605\n我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有二二八事件。34年以前還有很多的\n\n19\n00:06:12,305 --> 00:06:40,069\n產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存?\n\n20\n00:06:41,966 --> 00:06:49,982\n非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎?\n\n21\n00:06:53,237 --> 00:07:17,534\n我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的慰安婦您剛剛講的慰安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那您剛剛也提到了啊38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦\n\n22\n00:07:18,976 --> 00:07:43,941\n未安婦的事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍?\n\n23\n00:07:45,103 --> 00:08:06,332\n人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。\n\n24\n00:08:07,554 --> 00:08:23,794\n部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史?\n\n25\n00:08:27,698 --> 00:08:55,493\n最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者\n\n26\n00:08:56,732 --> 00:08:59,214\n«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n27\n00:09:20,972 --> 00:09:36,882\n歷史再強調一次啦我相信你也認同觀今一見古無古不成今我們現在有富裕的台灣社會我們有中華民國113年都是過去所有人累積下來所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得我們不能\n\n28\n00:09:37,682 --> 00:09:56,027\n我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微\n\n29\n00:09:56,847 --> 00:10:06,454\n以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以為他們在天之靈所推動推動。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n169\t11656\t委員直巡。好主席謝謝麻煩請李部長請李部長\n18610\t40149\t主席,你好。主席,你好。好,本席剛剛特別聆聽您的這個草案內容跟立法目的,其中講到說空間文、活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述有助於促進社會溝通反省、建立保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍的社會。那我想請教,促轉條例\n41650\t63792\t之前在2022年的5月也正式解編了因為他任務行嘛兩年那後來延長了各延長一次再兩年也在2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編我們現在所要推動的這個不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係還是他是促轉條例的延伸嗎?\n64633\t66754\t所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸?\n86287\t100962\t我們有看到說不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項要成立審議會明定成員資格組成資格那我想請教一下現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了\n102103\t119504\t會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員\n120365\t145174\t那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下。我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係。你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係。我沒有說延伸我是說他結束。來來來主席時間暫停一下。要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊。是。\n147068\t164426\t主席可不可以時間暫停一下因為剛部長我在兩分鐘前問說是不是延伸他講說是是促轉會之後下來然後交給文化部的工作那現在又講說完全毫無關係這樣子好不好這前言後語對不著欸我們在精神上是延伸可是在法律上我們從新開始\n165487\t177678\t精神上延伸,法律重新開始。精神上延伸,法律重新開始,代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立,對不對?\n179542\t195352\t他這個結束以後交給每一個部門有新的東西是那精神上是延伸的精神上延伸但法律重新調整因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛對沒錯謝謝部長部長非常好開宗明義很開放的態度那我們就想請教\n196792\t209361\t保障人權守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍觀今一見古無古不曾經過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘可以原諒但絕對不能遺忘對吧當然就是我們的目的不要遺忘我們要面對真相部長那請教一下民國38年以前在台灣這塊土地上面在民國38年也是中華民國的一個\n225714\t225914\t議員范雲等\n249295\t277278\t台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來\n278598\t281500\t一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安婦2023年92歲離開了。\n285885\t312317\t二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤\n313718\t331885\t而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權館2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看\n333735\t345563\t以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論?\n346957\t371605\t我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有二二八事件。34年以前還有很多的\n372305\t400069\t產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存?\n401966\t409982\t非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎?\n413237\t437534\t我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的慰安婦您剛剛講的慰安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那您剛剛也提到了啊38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦\n438976\t463941\t未安婦的事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍?\n465103\t486332\t人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。\n487554\t503794\t部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史?\n507698\t535493\t最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者\n536732\t539214\t«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n560972\t576882\t歷史再強調一次啦我相信你也認同觀今一見古無古不成今我們現在有富裕的台灣社會我們有中華民國113年都是過去所有人累積下來所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得我們不能\n577682\t596027\t我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微\n596847\t606454\t以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以為他們在天之靈所推動推動。\n","txt":"委員直巡。好主席謝謝麻煩請李部長請李部長\n主席,你好。主席,你好。好,本席剛剛特別聆聽您的這個草案內容跟立法目的,其中講到說空間文、活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述有助於促進社會溝通反省、建立保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍的社會。那我想請教,促轉條例\n之前在2022年的5月也正式解編了因為他任務行嘛兩年那後來延長了各延長一次再兩年也在2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編我們現在所要推動的這個不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係還是他是促轉條例的延伸嗎?\n所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸?\n我們有看到說不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項要成立審議會明定成員資格組成資格那我想請教一下現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了\n會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員\n那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下。我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係。你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係。我沒有說延伸我是說他結束。來來來主席時間暫停一下。要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊。是。\n主席可不可以時間暫停一下因為剛部長我在兩分鐘前問說是不是延伸他講說是是促轉會之後下來然後交給文化部的工作那現在又講說完全毫無關係這樣子好不好這前言後語對不著欸我們在精神上是延伸可是在法律上我們從新開始\n精神上延伸,法律重新開始。精神上延伸,法律重新開始,代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立,對不對?\n他這個結束以後交給每一個部門有新的東西是那精神上是延伸的精神上延伸但法律重新調整因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛對沒錯謝謝部長部長非常好開宗明義很開放的態度那我們就想請教\n保障人權守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍觀今一見古無古不曾經過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘可以原諒但絕對不能遺忘對吧當然就是我們的目的不要遺忘我們要面對真相部長那請教一下民國38年以前在台灣這塊土地上面在民國38年也是中華民國的一個\n議員范雲等\n台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來\n一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安婦2023年92歲離開了。\n二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤\n而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權館2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看\n以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論?\n我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有二二八事件。34年以前還有很多的\n產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存?\n非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎?\n我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的慰安婦您剛剛講的慰安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那您剛剛也提到了啊38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦\n未安婦的事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍?\n人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。\n部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史?\n最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者\n«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n歷史再強調一次啦我相信你也認同觀今一見古無古不成今我們現在有富裕的台灣社會我們有中華民國113年都是過去所有人累積下來所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得我們不能\n我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微\n以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以為他們在天之靈所推動推動。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.169 --> 00:11.656\n委員直巡。好主席謝謝麻煩請李部長請李部長\n\n00:18.610 --> 00:40.149\n主席,你好。主席,你好。好,本席剛剛特別聆聽您的這個草案內容跟立法目的,其中講到說空間文、活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述有助於促進社會溝通反省、建立保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍的社會。那我想請教,促轉條例\n\n00:41.650 --> 01:03.792\n之前在2022年的5月也正式解編了因為他任務行嘛兩年那後來延長了各延長一次再兩年也在2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編我們現在所要推動的這個不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係還是他是促轉條例的延伸嗎?\n\n01:04.633 --> 01:06.754\n所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸?\n\n01:26.287 --> 01:40.962\n我們有看到說不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項要成立審議會明定成員資格組成資格那我想請教一下現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了\n\n01:42.103 --> 01:59.504\n會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員\n\n02:00.365 --> 02:25.174\n那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下。我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係。你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係。我沒有說延伸我是說他結束。來來來主席時間暫停一下。要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊。是。\n\n02:27.068 --> 02:44.426\n主席可不可以時間暫停一下因為剛部長我在兩分鐘前問說是不是延伸他講說是是促轉會之後下來然後交給文化部的工作那現在又講說完全毫無關係這樣子好不好這前言後語對不著欸我們在精神上是延伸可是在法律上我們從新開始\n\n02:45.487 --> 02:57.678\n精神上延伸,法律重新開始。精神上延伸,法律重新開始,代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立,對不對?\n\n02:59.542 --> 03:15.352\n他這個結束以後交給每一個部門有新的東西是那精神上是延伸的精神上延伸但法律重新調整因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛對沒錯謝謝部長部長非常好開宗明義很開放的態度那我們就想請教\n\n03:16.792 --> 03:29.361\n保障人權守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍觀今一見古無古不曾經過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘可以原諒但絕對不能遺忘對吧當然就是我們的目的不要遺忘我們要面對真相部長那請教一下民國38年以前在台灣這塊土地上面在民國38年也是中華民國的一個\n\n03:45.714 --> 03:45.914\n議員范雲等\n\n04:09.295 --> 04:37.278\n台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來\n\n04:38.598 --> 04:41.500\n一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安婦2023年92歲離開了。\n\n04:45.885 --> 05:12.317\n二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤\n\n05:13.718 --> 05:31.885\n而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權館2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看\n\n05:33.735 --> 05:45.563\n以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論?\n\n05:46.957 --> 06:11.605\n我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有二二八事件。34年以前還有很多的\n\n06:12.305 --> 06:40.069\n產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存?\n\n06:41.966 --> 06:49.982\n非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎?\n\n06:53.237 --> 07:17.534\n我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的慰安婦您剛剛講的慰安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那您剛剛也提到了啊38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦\n\n07:18.976 --> 07:43.941\n未安婦的事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍?\n\n07:45.103 --> 08:06.332\n人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。\n\n08:07.554 --> 08:23.794\n部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史?\n\n08:27.698 --> 08:55.493\n最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者\n\n08:56.732 --> 08:59.214\n«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n09:20.972 --> 09:36.882\n歷史再強調一次啦我相信你也認同觀今一見古無古不成今我們現在有富裕的台灣社會我們有中華民國113年都是過去所有人累積下來所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得我們不能\n\n09:37.682 --> 09:56.027\n我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微\n\n09:56.847 --> 10:06.454\n以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以為他們在天之靈所推動推動。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.169,"end":11.656,"text":"委員直巡。好主席謝謝麻煩請李部長請李部長"},{"start":18.61,"end":40.149,"text":"主席,你好。主席,你好。好,本席剛剛特別聆聽您的這個草案內容跟立法目的,其中講到說空間文、活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述有助於促進社會溝通反省、建立保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍的社會。那我想請教,促轉條例"},{"start":41.65,"end":63.792,"text":"之前在2022年的5月也正式解編了因為他任務行嘛兩年那後來延長了各延長一次再兩年也在2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編我們現在所要推動的這個不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係還是他是促轉條例的延伸嗎?"},{"start":64.633,"end":66.754,"text":"所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸?"},{"start":86.287,"end":100.962,"text":"我們有看到說不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項要成立審議會明定成員資格組成資格那我想請教一下現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了"},{"start":102.103,"end":119.504,"text":"會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員"},{"start":120.365,"end":145.174,"text":"那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下。我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係。你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係。我沒有說延伸我是說他結束。來來來主席時間暫停一下。要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊。是。"},{"start":147.068,"end":164.426,"text":"主席可不可以時間暫停一下因為剛部長我在兩分鐘前問說是不是延伸他講說是是促轉會之後下來然後交給文化部的工作那現在又講說完全毫無關係這樣子好不好這前言後語對不著欸我們在精神上是延伸可是在法律上我們從新開始"},{"start":165.487,"end":177.678,"text":"精神上延伸,法律重新開始。精神上延伸,法律重新開始,代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立,對不對?"},{"start":179.542,"end":195.352,"text":"他這個結束以後交給每一個部門有新的東西是那精神上是延伸的精神上延伸但法律重新調整因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛對沒錯謝謝部長部長非常好開宗明義很開放的態度那我們就想請教"},{"start":196.792,"end":209.361,"text":"保障人權守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍觀今一見古無古不曾經過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘可以原諒但絕對不能遺忘對吧當然就是我們的目的不要遺忘我們要面對真相部長那請教一下民國38年以前在台灣這塊土地上面在民國38年也是中華民國的一個"},{"start":225.714,"end":225.914,"text":"議員范雲等"},{"start":249.295,"end":277.278,"text":"台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來"},{"start":278.598,"end":281.5,"text":"一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安婦2023年92歲離開了。"},{"start":285.885,"end":312.317,"text":"二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤"},{"start":313.718,"end":331.885,"text":"而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權館2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看"},{"start":333.735,"end":345.563,"text":"以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論?"},{"start":346.957,"end":371.605,"text":"我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有二二八事件。34年以前還有很多的"},{"start":372.305,"end":400.069,"text":"產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存?"},{"start":401.966,"end":409.982,"text":"非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":413.237,"end":437.534,"text":"我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的慰安婦您剛剛講的慰安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那您剛剛也提到了啊38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦"},{"start":438.976,"end":463.941,"text":"未安婦的事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍?"},{"start":465.103,"end":486.332,"text":"人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。"},{"start":487.554,"end":503.794,"text":"部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史?"},{"start":507.698,"end":535.493,"text":"最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者"},{"start":536.732,"end":539.214,"text":" «不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":560.972,"end":576.882,"text":"歷史再強調一次啦我相信你也認同觀今一見古無古不成今我們現在有富裕的台灣社會我們有中華民國113年都是過去所有人累積下來所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得我們不能"},{"start":577.682,"end":596.027,"text":"我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微"},{"start":596.847,"end":606.454,"text":"以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以為他們在天之靈所推動推動。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":80,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時14分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請李部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["李部長遠：洪委員你好。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛特別聆聽你報告草案內容跟立法目的，其中講到空間活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述，有助於促進社會溝通反省，建立保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍的社會。我想請教，促轉條例之前在2022年5月正式解編了，因為它是任務型的，為期兩年，後來各延長1次，也就是再延長兩年，2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編，我們現在所要推動的不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係，還是它是促轉條例的延伸嗎？"],["李部長遠：據我了解，促轉會結束之後，把它的工作分配給不同部門，我們文化部所分到的工作就是不義遺址的研究與調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸？"],["李部長遠：它結束後把工作重新交給文化部……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我們有看到不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項，要成立審議會，明定成員資格、組成資格。我想請教一下，現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了？會不會讓大家外界質疑，就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日，結果兩年之後又再一年、又再一年，又多延長了兩年，現在解散了，結果我們又再推不義遺址委員會，到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又都是之前促轉會的委員，這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎？這樣子還有我們過去法條的意義嗎？部長說明一下。"],["李部長遠：我們這次重新在審議的時候，我想跟前面另外那個促轉會是毫無關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛講說是延伸，現在又講毫無關係……"],["李部長遠：我沒有說延伸，我是說它結束……"],["洪委員孟楷：主席，時間暫停一下，你要不要回倒一下，怎麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾？主席，可不可以時間暫停一下？因為剛剛我在兩分鐘前問部長是不是延伸，他講說是促轉會之後下來，然後交給文化部的工作，現在又講說完全毫無關係……"],["李部長遠：這樣子好不好，我們在……"],["洪委員孟楷：前言後語對不著啊！"],["李部長遠：我們在精神上是延伸，可是在法律上我們重新開始，可以嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：精神上延伸，法律重新開始……"],["李部長遠：如果沒有促轉會，我們不會有這個不義……"],["洪委員孟楷：精神上延伸，法律重新開始，代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立，對不對？對嘛！"],["李部長遠：它結束以後交給每一個部門，有新的東西，精神上是延伸的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，精神上延伸，但法律重新調整……"],["李部長遠：法律讓我們重新組……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛。"],["李部長遠：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。部長，非常好，開宗明義，很開放的態度。我們就想請教，部長提到保障人權、守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍，所謂觀今宜鑑古，無古不成今，過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘，可以原諒，但絕對不能遺忘，對吧？"],["李部長遠：當然，我們的目的就是不要遺忘，而且我們要面對真相。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，請教一下，民國38年也是中華民國的一個紀元，民國38年以前在臺灣這塊土地上面，我們有沒有一些不義的事情發生？"],["李部長遠：民國34年到38年是發生228事件的時間，民國38年以後有白色恐怖，民國34年以前日本統治臺灣的時候發生過很多不義的事，但是它不在我們這個條例之內。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣首座慰安婦博物館──「阿嬤家」2016年成立，當時這3位阿嬤現在都已經在天堂了，那個時候是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式地向南韓道歉、同意賠償，但對於臺灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意。2016年到現在，8年又過去了，他們一輩子等不到道歉，最後一位慰安婦2023年92歲離開了。二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉，賠償其實只是其次，我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史，以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生。二次世界大戰也好，日據時代也好，這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤，而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最令人難過而且無法忍受的事情。所以阿嬤家─和平與女性人權館2016年成立，到現在8年的時間，也都有相關的教育。如果以部長來看，你說要保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍，你認不認為應該也要正視這時候的歷史，是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論？"],["李部長遠：我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的指的是威權時代統治一個一定的範圍……"],["洪委員孟楷：您剛提到了，精神延續嘛！所以我沒有否決精神，轉型正義大家都知道，但是法定重來，所以我們現在是討論個別條文。我現在想請教的是，在民國38年以前，你剛也說了，34年到38年有228事件，34年以前還有很多慘無人道、不遵守人權的事件，為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限在民國38年以後呢？民國38年以前的不算嗎？這個歷史就沒了嗎？沒有人權被破壞嗎？既然這樣的話，我們是不是應該以更開闊的心胸，從民國開始到現在113年，我國只要有任何不義的地方、任何威權的地方、任何人權被破壞的地方，我們是不是都應該要保存？"],["李部長遠：當然是，但是不知道……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，謝謝部長，所以我們是不是在討論的時候，就不要設限在民國38年以後，而是從有中華民國以來到113年，我們共同來推動，這樣可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：我剛剛有特別強調，我們今天審查的條例，是有一個時間的範圍跟事件，但是您剛剛講的慰安婦也好……"],["洪委員孟楷：我剛才跟您提到了，時間的條件是可以修改的，這是我們在逐條審查時可以討論的，你剛剛也提到了，38年以前也有很多人權事件，也有很多不義啊！我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分，我現在講的是38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦，慰安婦事件難道不用關心嗎？聽說、據聞、據統計，當時臺灣可能有8萬人、有10萬人，甚至有20萬人的慰安婦，到現在慰安婦都已經是零人了，但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎？這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有發生嗎？如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話，那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍？人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情，慰安婦就是其中之一，既然如此的話，我們不是應該要正視這段歷史並告訴後代子孫，不要輕易發起戰爭，戰爭很殘忍，如果真的有戰爭發生的話，可能全部的人都會牽連進去，其中慰安婦也會發生！部長，您是文化人，您怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：慰安婦的事情，包括當年日本人統治臺灣的南洋軍夫的事情，永遠不會被遺忘，而且不知道你有沒有注意到……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們是不是更應該去保存，讓臺灣這塊土地上2,350萬人也都記得這段歷史？"],["李部長遠：對，最近公共電視所播的聽海湧，就是又回到日本人統治臺灣，日本人如何屠殺戰俘的故事，這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情，永遠不會忘記，而且就像納粹統治的時期，大家重複的用電影文學一再的演出這些東西，就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情，加害者跟被害者之間，誰是加害者、誰是被害者，我們釐清這一些的目的，就是希望未來不要再發生。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長。部長，我讓您最後1分鐘完全的獨白，這是之後我逐條審查的時候，絕對會把你這一段話重複播放出來，因為這聽起來代表部長跟本席是有一致的共識，我們都要記得所有的歷史，再強調一次，我相信你也認同，歷史，觀今宜鑑古、無古不成今，我們現在有富裕的臺灣社會，我們有中華民國113年，都是過去所有人累積下來的，所以過去每一段歷史我們都要記得，我們可以原諒但不能遺忘，而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的，所以本席在這個條例裡面，如同剛剛跟部長講的，我們也會推動相關的修正動議，希望部長能夠大力的支持，在逐條審查的時候，我相信召委……"],["主席：已經超過1分鐘了。"],["洪委員孟楷：以女性運動那麼權威的一個召委，應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對，我們共同為慰安婦、阿嬤們，以慰他們在天之靈來做這樣的推動。"],["主席：請部長後續再回應，好嗎？因為已經超過1分鐘了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝洪孟楷委員。提醒一下，婦女團體希望正名為軍事性奴隸，謝謝。","再來我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}