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00:00:49,420\n他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢?\n\n4\n00:00:50,199 --> 00:00:54,763\n我們希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢\n\n5\n00:01:13,157 --> 00:01:16,639\n一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢\n\n6\n00:02:02,330 --> 00:02:02,650\n不義遺址保存條例草案。\n\n7\n00:02:31,468 --> 00:02:34,111\n我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個一\n\n8\n00:02:49,028 --> 00:02:55,936\n一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬\n\n9\n00:03:06,969 --> 00:03:16,612\n到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性佔標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼\n\n10\n00:03:35,638 --> 00:03:44,187\n這點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的啊?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。\n\n11\n00:03:48,544 --> 00:04:08,890\n關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家?\n\n12\n00:04:10,070 --> 00:04:24,463\n你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊,你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來?你給我完全更清楚的資料,我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。\n\n13\n00:04:26,843 --> 00:04:52,008\n請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店\n\n14\n00:04:55,329 --> 00:05:06,854\n這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對?\n\n15\n00:05:09,522 --> 00:05:27,570\n我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分。私有的部分會遵守當事人的意願。私有被公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾?\n\n16\n00:05:28,470 --> 00:05:43,054\n跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理\n\n17\n00:05:53,217 --> 00:05:54,137\n：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會提到\n\n18\n00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:42,051\n然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭\n\n19\n00:06:57,436 --> 00:07:19,954\n我們的陶足苗的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多好的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要?\n\n20\n00:07:23,988 --> 00:07:31,234\n以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個\n\n21\n00:07:43,154 --> 00:08:00,707\n就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋它不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長\n\n22\n00:08:02,768 --> 00:08:10,151\n這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有…那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成一個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的\n\n23\n00:08:26,457 --> 00:08:44,934\n市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾\n\n24\n00:08:45,635 --> 00:08:48,678\n這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們\n\n25\n00:09:09,719 --> 00:09:22,345\n所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t10164\t我們請柯智恩委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長?有請部長。\n16687\t16827\t拜託,您好!\n38140\t49420\t他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢?\n50199\t54763\t我們希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢\n73157\t76639\t一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢\n92090\t122090\t﹏﹏\n122330\t122650\t不義遺址保存條例草案。\n151468\t154111\t我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個一\n169028\t175936\t一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬\n186969\t196612\t到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性佔標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼\n215638\t224187\t這點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的啊?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。\n228544\t248890\t關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家?\n250070\t264463\t你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊,你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來?你給我完全更清楚的資料,我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。\n266843\t292008\t請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店\n295329\t306854\t這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對?\n309522\t327570\t我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分。私有的部分會遵守當事人的意願。私有被公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾?\n328470\t343054\t跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理\n353217\t354137\t：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會提到\n378302\t398490\t﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n398590\t402051\t然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭\n417436\t439954\t我們的陶足苗的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多好的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要?\n443988\t451234\t以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個\n463154\t480707\t就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋它不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長\n482768\t490151\t這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有…那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成一個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的\n506457\t524934\t市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾\n525635\t528678\t這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們\n549719\t562345\t所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。\n","txt":"我們請柯智恩委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長?有請部長。\n拜託,您好!\n他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢?\n我們希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢\n一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢\n﹏﹏\n不義遺址保存條例草案。\n我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個一\n一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬\n到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性佔標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼\n這點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的啊?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。\n關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家?\n你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊,你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來?你給我完全更清楚的資料,我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。\n請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店\n這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對?\n我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分。私有的部分會遵守當事人的意願。私有被公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾?\n跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理\n：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會提到\n﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭\n我們的陶足苗的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多好的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要?\n以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個\n就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋它不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長\n這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有…那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成一個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的\n市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾\n這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們\n所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:10.164\n我們請柯智恩委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長?有請部長。\n\n00:16.687 --> 00:16.827\n拜託,您好!\n\n00:38.140 --> 00:49.420\n他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢?\n\n00:50.199 --> 00:54.763\n我們希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢\n\n01:13.157 --> 01:16.639\n一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢\n\n02:02.330 --> 02:02.650\n不義遺址保存條例草案。\n\n02:31.468 --> 02:34.111\n我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個一\n\n02:49.028 --> 02:55.936\n一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬\n\n03:06.969 --> 03:16.612\n到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性佔標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼\n\n03:35.638 --> 03:44.187\n這點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的啊?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。\n\n03:48.544 --> 04:08.890\n關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家?\n\n04:10.070 --> 04:24.463\n你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊,你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來?你給我完全更清楚的資料,我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。\n\n04:26.843 --> 04:52.008\n請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店\n\n04:55.329 --> 05:06.854\n這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對?\n\n05:09.522 --> 05:27.570\n我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分。私有的部分會遵守當事人的意願。私有被公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾?\n\n05:28.470 --> 05:43.054\n跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理\n\n05:53.217 --> 05:54.137\n：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會提到\n\n06:38.590 --> 06:42.051\n然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭\n\n06:57.436 --> 07:19.954\n我們的陶足苗的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多好的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要?\n\n07:23.988 --> 07:31.234\n以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個\n\n07:43.154 --> 08:00.707\n就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋它不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長\n\n08:02.768 --> 08:10.151\n這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有…那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成一個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的\n\n08:26.457 --> 08:44.934\n市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾\n\n08:45.635 --> 08:48.678\n這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們\n\n09:09.719 --> 09:22.345\n所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":10.164,"text":"我們請柯智恩委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長?有請部長。"},{"start":16.687,"end":16.827,"text":"拜託,您好!"},{"start":38.14,"end":49.42,"text":"他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":50.199,"end":54.763,"text":"我們希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢"},{"start":73.157,"end":76.639,"text":"一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢"},{"start":92.09,"end":122.09,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":122.33,"end":122.65,"text":"不義遺址保存條例草案。"},{"start":151.468,"end":154.111,"text":"我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個一"},{"start":169.028,"end":175.936,"text":"一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬"},{"start":186.969,"end":196.612,"text":"到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性佔標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼"},{"start":215.638,"end":224.187,"text":"這點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的啊?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。"},{"start":228.544,"end":248.89,"text":"關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家?"},{"start":250.07,"end":264.463,"text":"你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊,你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來?你給我完全更清楚的資料,我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。"},{"start":266.843,"end":292.008,"text":"請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店"},{"start":295.329,"end":306.854,"text":"這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對?"},{"start":309.522,"end":327.57,"text":"我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分。私有的部分會遵守當事人的意願。私有被公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾?"},{"start":328.47,"end":343.054,"text":"跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理"},{"start":353.217,"end":354.137,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會提到"},{"start":378.302,"end":398.49,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":398.59,"end":402.051,"text":"然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭"},{"start":417.436,"end":439.954,"text":"我們的陶足苗的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多好的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要?"},{"start":443.988,"end":451.234,"text":"以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個"},{"start":463.154,"end":480.707,"text":"就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋它不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長"},{"start":482.768,"end":490.151,"text":"這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有…那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成一個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的"},{"start":506.457,"end":524.934,"text":"市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾"},{"start":525.635,"end":528.678,"text":"這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們"},{"start":549.719,"end":562.345,"text":"所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時33分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。"],["李部長遠：柯委員你好。"],["柯委員志恩：我們今天審不義遺址保存條例，我想我們先來正名一下。目前不管是立法院法制局，還有很多監委、很多專家的看法認為，「不義」這名詞聽起來非常負面，且容易造成反彈；講到「遺址」，根據國語詞典的定義，通常認為是考古學家研究之地，所以很多人建議改成「人權事件紀念場域保存條例」，部長，你的看法呢？"],["李部長遠：我想這都可以再討論，因為這只是一個法案，每個委員都可以提出他要修改的……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯，我現在只提出意見，而部長當然是尊重，但我們還是希望討論時能面對歷史真相，不用一開始就在名稱上引起反彈。監察院曾經在報告中寫「就人權侵害事件發生地進行史跡點的調查與清查」，這是監察院；到文化部之後，雖然不是在部長任內，但文化部自己把它變成不義遺址，這是你們發明的！雖然不是你，但以你卓越的文字能力，是不是可以考慮改成更妥當的字眼？不要一開始就造成大家在定義上的反彈！更何況世界各國也沒有人用不義，在面對很多真相時並沒有很多人用不義一詞！其實很多國家在使用轉型正義一詞上就遇到非常多的困難，監委范巽綠也認同社會的理解必須要從和解開始，所以我覺得有正義的一方，必定有不正義的另外一方。與其用不義這個名詞，我認為還是用人權歷史場域更為妥善，未來在逐條審查時，我們會做討論。","請問文化部什麼時候開始做文化遺址調查？做了多久？花費多少？部長，我想我還是要幫你稍微review一下，因為促轉會也做了很多不義遺址的踏查，請問你們的調查跟他們的踏查差別在哪裡？"],["李部長遠：這點是不是請……"],["柯委員志恩：我先全部問完之後他再給我統一的回答。請看我所條列出來的，在促轉會解散之前，已經花了406.5萬。我這個人非常務實，除了剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外，在文化部接手之後，這部分也花了50萬，而且國家人權博物館在1月14日的內容更新上也花了194萬。最重要的是什麼？部長，你看一下，為什麼有這麼多的調查卻只獨厚一家，而且是限制性招標？這家公司在2014年成立，資產額只有100萬。到目前為止，只要是跟不義遺址有關的，都是由這家公司來承接。到現在承接的費用是多少？2,365萬。這家公司在成立之前，從來沒有看出它是什麼不義遺址專家，所以為什麼一定要限制性招標，非這家不可？從以前到現在，為什麼都是同一家？臺灣有這麼多的專家學者！部長，理由是什麼？"],["李部長遠：這點我必須很誠實講，我不清楚。"],["柯委員志恩：有沒有誰清楚的？為什麼全臺灣的專家只有一家？就只有一家嗎？而且是限制性招標，二千三百多萬，給我一個解釋！"],["陳副館長淑滿：關於這一家，因為我們委託的有關案件調查事實上都是涉及白恐跟不義遺址……"],["柯委員志恩：這是採限制性招標的理由嗎？我們有很多專家啊！"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們都是用採購……"],["柯委員志恩：不會啊，我們看……"],["陳副館長淑滿：是公開招標，而且是用公開評選的方式。"],["柯委員志恩：然後從頭到尾就同一家？從以前到現在就只有這麼一家？你要不要看一下，把我後面所有的資料調出來？"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們有外聘評審委員，然後……"],["柯委員志恩：請給我更完全、更清楚的資料，我就不相信全臺灣就只有這麼一家公司，從2014年到現在就只有一家公司可以做你們的工作！"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們提供書面資料……"],["柯委員志恩：給我全部的書面報告與檢查，這是非常重要的。還有部長，我們再來看第四條，裡面特別寫到不義遺址要活化保存。但現在有很多地方的原建物已經拆除了，卻還要再活化並做教育推廣，既然已經定義為不義遺址，像基隆港、野柳、臺北橋，還有附近的青島東路3號、喜來登飯店，這些在過去都屬於不義遺址，有些是公有的、有些是私有的。私有部分，我剛剛有聽到你說可以不用被貼上標籤，對不對？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["柯委員志恩：是不是？"],["王次長時思：不好意思，我跟委員說明，我們現在的保存活化都是針對公有部分……"],["柯委員志恩：好，私有部分呢？"],["王次長時思：私有部分會尊重當事人的意願……"],["柯委員志恩：私有的被你們公告之後，會不會受到干擾？他不願意，但因為被你們公告了，會不會因此受到干擾？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，現在處理的方式是以對財產侵害權最小，並且尊重當事人意願的情況下來進行……"],["柯委員志恩：我懂，可是公告之後有些地方或許就會受到一些干擾，更何況……"],["王次長時思：應該是大家共同面對！"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝，我等一下還會針對這個問題提問，屆時請次長再上來。我想有一點非常重要，條文中提到主管機關可以委任民間團體或個人辦理，所以將來會不會打著不義遺址的大旗，又開始來用預算分大餅？監委特別提到，在文化部編列的預算當中，每年只有230萬到540萬，很少。我想請問，這個條例通過之後共有42處遺址，請問文化部要花多少錢來做這件事？是否會排擠目前的文化資產？所以包括剛剛的限制招標在內，你們要一併告訴我，未來在這個條例通過之後，你們在預算上到底要如何編列？還有很重要的一點，這點前面兩個委員都非常關切，在花了這麼多錢在你所重視的轉型正義上，為什麼只限定在34年8月15日到81年11月6日？然後民國34年8月15號那天公告之後的正義才是正義，之前都不算正義嗎？部長，這個時間軸大家是非常有想法、有意見的，就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的，我們如果要往前來算的話，你看1895年的乙未戰爭，我們桃竹苗的客家人被慘烈鎮壓，這算不算不義？日本殖民時期的時候，日軍殺了多少的臺灣人？這樣子說起來的話，身為最高指揮中心的總統府算不算是不義遺址？當初我們行政院的陳建仁院長把行政院當作是二二八的不義遺址，貼上一個標示，請問總統府需不需要貼一塊？部長，需不需要？以我們的歷史軸來看的話，總統府是日本的總督府，算不算是不義遺址？你要不要跟行政院一樣貼上一塊？"],["李部長遠：剛才您提到那個1895年……"],["柯委員志恩：先回答這個，總統府需不需要？"],["李部長遠：因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個……就是您剛才講的那個，我們的法案有個先決條件……"],["柯委員志恩：所以就告訴你嘛，這個時間軸如果你掛上「不義」兩個字，大家就有意見嘛！你所謂的轉型正義、你所謂的不公不義，難道只有38年前的這段時間才叫不公不義嗎？其他的部分，你怎麼來解釋？這不應該是放諸四海的普世價值嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有歷史……"],["柯委員志恩：那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算，這麼久來一起把他一次算總帳也可以啊！因為誠如我說的，監察院只是告訴你這是一個人權運動的方式，是文化部你把他改成了不義遺址，用這樣的原理來說的話，說實在的，施明德最有機會講所謂的轉型正義，他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團。","我們再往下看，你現在已經標示了這麼多，最後的部分裡面還有多少你要來標示？如果徐厝不要的話，它可以拒絕，但是會不會對它造成困擾？這都是我所提到的問題，因為時間的關係，我只告訴部長，這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視，最重要的是，不要告訴我，你只限定這段時間，包括定義你都可以改，更何況這個時間，這是普遍的價值，你不應該限定這段時間，然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址，對我們來說那是完全說不通的，只能告訴我們所謂的不公不義是放諸四海的，只要是這樣，不管他是誰，我們都應該拿出來，這才是真正地面對歷史的真相，好不好？部長，最重要的是招標的部分請給我一個詳細的說明報告，這很重要。"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，謝謝你，謝謝你指教。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝柯志恩委員。","再來我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}