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00:00:46,612\n有是不是?沒有沒有我說我待會等今天的詢答發言之後我會處理因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見所以是今天詢答完畢才會決定要不要這樣走是不是?而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理好嗎?就是那個黃委員那個提案是的因為我覺得其實不管怎麼樣召開公聽會這件事情就是論事是合乎道理的\n\n3\n00:00:46,952 --> 00:00:46,972\n議員：吳宗憲\n\n4\n00:01:04,732 --> 00:01:21,751\n我不是宮廷會愛好者,你說我是流浪犬的愛好者,我會收容流浪犬,這我接受。宮廷會是有必要,不是因為愛好的關係。還有就是那個禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開宮廷會我回去反覆看那個影片,就可能你聽錯了,我當作你聽錯。\n\n5\n00:01:22,812 --> 00:01:39,885\n欸對不起,你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎?我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文,是你的確有說過你不同意。我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎?我跟你講齁,你自己看,你不要去看人家整理的,因為我反覆看。那我也是建議你自己看,也可以看看人家整理的。\n\n6\n00:01:42,012 --> 00:02:02,046\n自己看,也看看人家整你的,看看自己是不是看錯了。很多時候眼見為憑,然後另外就是說我個人就是說主席因為吼,因為你那天一直說這樣嘛,那我還是覺得誠信是做人做官處事的道理吼,那還有最後一個那個會議詢問問題就是因為剛剛主席喔,在那邊有\n\n7\n00:02:03,353 --> 00:02:03,833\n我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號,我剛剛是拿著我們的\n\n8\n00:02:25,652 --> 00:02:53,772\n立法委員首冊第14頁宣讀第57條以及第18頁第71條你可以看一下錄影帶跟主席報告一件事情如果主席剛剛講了光臨來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢他們說明我想一下請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周焯南秘書長的到此為止\n\n9\n00:02:55,202 --> 00:03:18,416\n我還是要對你的詢問啊,你既然詢問我要回答啊周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長我們是合意製的立法委員的形成的立法院的議址在委員會跟院會秘書長都有來跟委員跟大院跟本院做報告的義務我這樣跟你說明我沒有說他沒有來的義務啊我沒有這樣講啊那我尊重你的感覺啦剛剛的第71條是得列席陳述意見沒關係啦\n\n10\n00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:23,079\n請黃副秘書長\n\n11\n00:03:52,336 --> 00:04:02,103\n兩位早安我想先請教一個問題就是說請教兩位一個問題加一個最基本的問題就是說為什麼要偵測稅務審查官簡單說就好\n\n12\n00:04:23,151 --> 00:04:44,279\n因為現在這個新法之後那個為了要落實總和處理而且擴大那個行政法院的這個審理這個職權他可以自己做最後的判斷那這也就是自己去核到底要多少錢那他自己必須要有那個計算法要有這個計算的這個能力所以他必須要有專業有這種審查稅務的這個經驗的這些輔助的人員\n\n13\n00:04:47,201 --> 00:05:04,572\n謝謝吳宗憲我懂齁那這個就是說其實我們在實務審判的時候法官不可能是全裁所以很多東西以前是需要函詢那個行政機關嘛那我們就是省掉這個過程齁這個我可以理解但是我想請教一下稅務官他的來源是什麼\n\n14\n00:05:24,885 --> 00:05:44,378\n稅務機關本來從國稅局那邊過來,我想請教次長,這些稅審官他如果被領選上了,他在福利上面有什麼?因為剛中委員有請教這個問題,那他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同?目前可能要請我們秘書長來回應,因為這個部分我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。\n\n15\n00:05:47,080 --> 00:06:14,007\n跟委員報告因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有那個制裁法院技術審查官他們過來以後通常我們會給他額外的這個這個這個加級那麼大概大概可以跟他原來的工作的那一個待遇有相當的這個然後通常以以往的這個經驗他們借調過來這個專業法院之後熟悉這個訴訟熟悉訴訟這邊操作借調往他回原單位也通常會得到不自拔著的這個機會\n\n16\n00:06:15,668 --> 00:06:27,401\n我懂,我也幹過20幾年、24年的公務員,所以我也懂這個道理。所以呢,依照草案大概戒掉是3年嘛,對不對,依照你們的規劃是3年,那它會不會再延長啊?\n\n17\n00:06:29,568 --> 00:06:29,588\n吳宗憲\n\n18\n00:06:50,375 --> 00:07:08,721\n目前只有行政法院而且通常情形稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院那最高行政法院他也有需要那目前的臺北高等行政法院有四位的是司法事務官但是他專業程度跟我們將來的稅務官當然是不一樣\n\n19\n00:07:09,701 --> 00:07:12,604\n人民在面對這個稅審官﹖因為稅審官他可以問﹖他甚至可以發問對不對﹖他可以像問政人﹖問當事人的那個方式他可以發問嘛﹖那我想請教一下今天我們\n\n20\n00:07:49,670 --> 00:08:17,369\n就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣有人問祝安來秘書長然後叫了兩個律師兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人立場就已經偏頗嘛我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得說你今天法官來審理我的案子我的對照是稅務機關結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來那變成是兩個維歐我就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣\n\n21\n00:08:19,212 --> 00:08:25,010\n在修理周恩來秘書長再找兩個律師來一起修理會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺?會不會?\n\n22\n00:08:27,541 --> 00:08:51,762\n委員報告吼那這一個稅審官制度是參考既有的制裁法院的這個紀審官那麼紀審官在20年前在制定的時候曾經也有人因為他也是一樣從自衛局自衛局借料過來確實也有人曾經就這個懷疑但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候我們在在內部倫理上面對我們的紀審官是高度要求這一個倫理你絕對不可以結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後\n\n23\n00:08:52,363 --> 00:08:52,383\n我講齁\n\n24\n00:09:11,854 --> 00:09:30,766\n因為我想說這部分我們將來會做嚴格的要求。謝富密講的沒有錯。那你引用的那個制裁局那裡也沒有問題。我自己也在制裁局實習過。那我要講的一個是因為這些人三年到他要回歸到原單位嘛。所以他在法院的時候他\n\n25\n00:09:31,627 --> 00:09:31,647\n吳宗憲\n\n26\n00:10:02,995 --> 00:10:27,854\n既然說每個人不是天使那你今天叫了一個將來三年後要回歸他原單位的這個人他一而家回去他一定是面臨面對還會升遷嘛這在公務機關都這樣外調回來長久升遷那這樣他有沒有可能持平的去看待每一個稅務案件他的獨立性夠不夠這個是我擔心的更何況我們今天那個監察院他在那個\n\n27\n00:10:29,035 --> 00:10:52,737\n108年提出的納稅人權力保護法的調查報告其實它本來就是要保護納稅人它不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸所以今天這樣子的設計會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算結果我現在被法官跟稅審官兩個人K我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見\n\n28\n00:10:54,597 --> 00:11:18,235\n我覺得委員關心這個問題當然是一般人民的想法但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話我相信他們會本於公正而且變成公平公就是合理的方式來處理這事情市長你講的都是理想就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者但是他一連串的下來\n\n29\n00:11:19,488 --> 00:11:37,789\n我是打問號啦吼那人性跟理想還是有差距像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官經過約詢以後他們其實都很了解其實納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色\n\n30\n00:11:40,495 --> 00:11:59,403\n因為我覺得我自己的了解這個狀況下有沒有可能就是說因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位而且還要在那邊升遷有沒有可能這三年他不敢去對抗自己的原來的單位然後再來因為法官對於稅務的理解性他的專業度不夠所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從\n\n31\n00:12:31,104 --> 00:12:56,220\n你我不會嘛但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼這樣會變成說大家會不會認為說是合起來一起修理這個民眾我想說這可能是兩位可能還要去思考一下的這個問題啦就會不會說我們講說是對於納稅人的權利保護就反而到最後變成是納稅人們覺得人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他\n\n32\n00:12:57,020 --> 00:13:19,259\n他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水就你反而結合其他人回來修理我所以我後來反而覺得剛剛那個複密所說的制裁局的部分的那個審查官到最後他變成是自己來培養然後他就是專屬在制裁局這樣我反而也許是一個更好的設計或者是說你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考\n\n33\n00:13:40,328 --> 00:13:41,389\n我最後再提一個東西就是說\n\n34\n00:14:02,915 --> 00:14:19,206\n其實這次有一個就你們草案第20條是不是有提到說人民的稅務糾紛譬如說那個稅務單位要你補20萬然後你們內部救濟程序就是復查訴願之後走上法院嘛那這時候同一個稅務事件如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊那這所以是重開一張補稅單20萬還是開單5萬然後併案一起審查是什麼樣狀況\n\n35\n00:14:29,668 --> 00:14:53,037\n委員報告,如果說發現有別的,然後是用數字變最佳的部分,再補開一個嗎?沒有沒有,他是說另行做成新處分。稅是多少?只是不需要,就是一個25號。那你們有沒有想過說,這個新的處分他沒有經過復查訴願,他就可以取代原來的稅單。這是不是一個問題?我想請教兩位。\n\n36\n00:15:00,699 --> 00:15:21,506\n我想其實這個是基於程序經濟就像其實他的科稅基礎事實原則上大部分是相同的所以其實之前被取代掉的那個處分他已經經過複查跟訴願那我們免除的只是他起訴的前置的程序而已那後面的審極利益是完全不受影響的\n\n37\n00:15:21,926 --> 00:15:32,455\n當然啦我沒有提到審極利益啦我只是說復查書院的這個會不會大家覺得我後面補的你補開給我的那個東西我卻漏掉了那兩個救濟的程序吼\n\n38\n00:15:33,712 --> 00:16:01,472\n好吧那所以這個東西也麻煩你們稍微注意一下因為這是我看你們草案之後我覺得這是一個問題因為他變成說新的這一塊變成他反而少掉了他原本有原有的救濟程序後面審期我沒有意見那我跟你說齁這稅務爭議解決的方式其實還有很多種不是只有訴訟啦比如說你們那個你們107年有設置那個納稅權力保護官嘛然後行政訴訟也有一個調解\n\n39\n00:16:22,535 --> 00:16:35,649\n兩位都能夠注意這個不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛還有很多其他的途徑那個對人民比較有利好不好一般人民到法院都還要請律師還有很多成本支出好謝謝各位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n169\t7677\t主席一直很喜歡開公聽會這一件有沒有考慮要先開公聽會剛剛我已經宣告了\n19444\t46612\t有是不是?沒有沒有我說我待會等今天的詢答發言之後我會處理因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見所以是今天詢答完畢才會決定要不要這樣走是不是?而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理好嗎?就是那個黃委員那個提案是的因為我覺得其實不管怎麼樣召開公聽會這件事情就是論事是合乎道理的\n46952\t46972\t議員：吳宗憲\n64732\t81751\t我不是宮廷會愛好者,你說我是流浪犬的愛好者,我會收容流浪犬,這我接受。宮廷會是有必要,不是因為愛好的關係。還有就是那個禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開宮廷會我回去反覆看那個影片,就可能你聽錯了,我當作你聽錯。\n82812\t99885\t欸對不起,你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎?我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文,是你的確有說過你不同意。我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎?我跟你講齁,你自己看,你不要去看人家整理的,因為我反覆看。那我也是建議你自己看,也可以看看人家整理的。\n102012\t122046\t自己看,也看看人家整你的,看看自己是不是看錯了。很多時候眼見為憑,然後另外就是說我個人就是說主席因為吼,因為你那天一直說這樣嘛,那我還是覺得誠信是做人做官處事的道理吼,那還有最後一個那個會議詢問問題就是因為剛剛主席喔,在那邊有\n123353\t123833\t我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號,我剛剛是拿著我們的\n145652\t173772\t立法委員首冊第14頁宣讀第57條以及第18頁第71條你可以看一下錄影帶跟主席報告一件事情如果主席剛剛講了光臨來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢他們說明我想一下請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周焯南秘書長的到此為止\n175202\t198416\t我還是要對你的詢問啊,你既然詢問我要回答啊周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長我們是合意製的立法委員的形成的立法院的議址在委員會跟院會秘書長都有來跟委員跟大院跟本院做報告的義務我這樣跟你說明我沒有說他沒有來的義務啊我沒有這樣講啊那我尊重你的感覺啦剛剛的第71條是得列席陳述意見沒關係啦\n202919\t203079\t請黃副秘書長\n232336\t242103\t兩位早安我想先請教一個問題就是說請教兩位一個問題加一個最基本的問題就是說為什麼要偵測稅務審查官簡單說就好\n263151\t284279\t因為現在這個新法之後那個為了要落實總和處理而且擴大那個行政法院的這個審理這個職權他可以自己做最後的判斷那這也就是自己去核到底要多少錢那他自己必須要有那個計算法要有這個計算的這個能力所以他必須要有專業有這種審查稅務的這個經驗的這些輔助的人員\n287201\t304572\t謝謝吳宗憲 我懂齁 那這個就是說其實我們在實務審判的時候法官不可能是全裁 所以很多東西以前是需要函詢那個行政機關嘛 那我們就是省掉這個過程齁 這個我可以理解 但是我想請教一下稅務官他的來源是什麼\n306254\t324104\t⋯⋯⋯⋯\n324885\t344378\t稅務機關本來從國稅局那邊過來,我想請教次長,這些稅審官他如果被領選上了,他在福利上面有什麼?因為剛中委員有請教這個問題,那他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同?目前可能要請我們秘書長來回應,因為這個部分我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。\n347080\t374007\t跟委員報告因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有那個制裁法院技術審查官他們過來以後通常我們會給他額外的這個這個這個加級那麼大概大概可以跟他原來的工作的那一個待遇有相當的這個然後通常以以往的這個經驗他們借調過來這個專業法院之後熟悉這個訴訟熟悉訴訟這邊操作借調往他回原單位也通常會得到不自拔著的這個機會\n375668\t387401\t我懂,我也幹過20幾年、24年的公務員,所以我也懂這個道理。所以呢,依照草案大概戒掉是3年嘛,對不對,依照你們的規劃是3年,那它會不會再延長啊?\n389568\t389588\t吳宗憲\n410375\t428721\t目前只有行政法院而且通常情形稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院那最高行政法院他也有需要那目前的臺北高等行政法院有四位的是司法事務官但是他專業程度跟我們將來的稅務官當然是不一樣\n429701\t432604\t人民在面對這個稅審官﹖因為稅審官他可以問﹖他甚至可以發問對不對﹖他可以像問政人﹖問當事人的那個方式他可以發問嘛﹖那我想請教一下今天我們\n449701\t468677\t⋯⋯⋯⋯\n469670\t497369\t就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣有人問祝安來秘書長然後叫了兩個律師兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人立場就已經偏頗嘛我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得說你今天法官來審理我的案子我的對照是稅務機關結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來那變成是兩個維歐我就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣\n499212\t505010\t在修理周恩來秘書長再找兩個律師來一起修理會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺?會不會?\n507541\t531762\t委員報告吼那這一個稅審官制度是參考既有的制裁法院的這個紀審官那麼紀審官在20年前在制定的時候曾經也有人因為他也是一樣從自衛局自衛局借料過來確實也有人曾經就這個懷疑但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候我們在在內部倫理上面對我們的紀審官是高度要求這一個倫理你絕對不可以結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後\n532363\t532383\t我講齁\n551854\t570766\t因為我想說這部分我們將來會做嚴格的要求。謝富密講的沒有錯。那你引用的那個制裁局那裡也沒有問題。我自己也在制裁局實習過。那我要講的一個是因為這些人三年到他要回歸到原單位嘛。所以他在法院的時候他\n571627\t571647\t吳宗憲\n586698\t602875\t﹏﹏﹏\n602995\t627854\t既然說每個人不是天使那你今天叫了一個將來三年後要回歸他原單位的這個人他一而家回去他一定是面臨面對還會升遷嘛這在公務機關都這樣外調回來長久升遷那這樣他有沒有可能持平的去看待每一個稅務案件他的獨立性夠不夠這個是我擔心的更何況我們今天那個監察院他在那個\n629035\t652737\t108年提出的納稅人權力保護法的調查報告其實它本來就是要保護納稅人它不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸所以今天這樣子的設計會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算結果我現在被法官跟稅審官兩個人K我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見\n654597\t678235\t我覺得委員關心這個問題當然是一般人民的想法但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話我相信他們會本於公正而且變成公平公就是合理的方式來處理這事情市長你講的都是理想就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者但是他一連串的下來\n679488\t697789\t我是打問號啦吼那人性跟理想還是有差距像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官經過約詢以後他們其實都很了解其實納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色\n700495\t719403\t因為我覺得我自己的了解這個狀況下有沒有可能就是說因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位而且還要在那邊升遷有沒有可能這三年他不敢去對抗自己的原來的單位然後再來因為法官對於稅務的理解性他的專業度不夠所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從\n720964\t750964\t⋯⋯\n751104\t776220\t你我不會嘛但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼這樣會變成說大家會不會認為說是合起來一起修理這個民眾我想說這可能是兩位可能還要去思考一下的這個問題啦就會不會說我們講說是對於納稅人的權利保護就反而到最後變成是納稅人們覺得人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他\n777020\t799259\t他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水就你反而結合其他人回來修理我所以我後來反而覺得剛剛那個複密所說的制裁局的部分的那個審查官到最後他變成是自己來培養然後他就是專屬在制裁局這樣我反而也許是一個更好的設計或者是說你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考\n801288\t820128\t﹏﹏﹏\n820328\t821389\t我最後再提一個東西就是說\n842915\t859206\t其實這次有一個就你們草案第20條是不是有提到說人民的稅務糾紛譬如說那個稅務單位要你補20萬然後你們內部救濟程序就是復查訴願之後走上法院嘛那這時候同一個稅務事件如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊那這所以是重開一張補稅單20萬還是開單5萬然後併案一起審查是什麼樣狀況\n869668\t893037\t委員報告,如果說發現有別的,然後是用數字變最佳的部分,再補開一個嗎?沒有沒有,他是說另行做成新處分。稅是多少?只是不需要,就是一個25號。那你們有沒有想過說,這個新的處分他沒有經過復查訴願,他就可以取代原來的稅單。這是不是一個問題?我想請教兩位。\n900699\t921506\t我想其實這個是基於程序經濟就像其實他的科稅基礎事實原則上大部分是相同的所以其實之前被取代掉的那個處分他已經經過複查跟訴願那我們免除的只是他起訴的前置的程序而已那後面的審極利益是完全不受影響的\n921926\t932455\t當然啦我沒有提到審極利益啦我只是說復查書院的這個會不會大家覺得我後面補的你補開給我的那個東西我卻漏掉了那兩個救濟的程序吼\n933712\t961472\t好吧那所以這個東西也麻煩你們稍微注意一下因為這是我看你們草案之後我覺得這是一個問題因為他變成說新的這一塊變成他反而少掉了他原本有原有的救濟程序後面審期我沒有意見那我跟你說齁這稅務爭議解決的方式其實還有很多種不是只有訴訟啦比如說你們那個你們107年有設置那個納稅權力保護官嘛然後行政訴訟也有一個調解\n962193\t982295\t﹏﹏\n982535\t995649\t兩位都能夠注意這個不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛還有很多其他的途徑那個對人民比較有利好不好一般人民到法院都還要請律師還有很多成本支出好謝謝各位\n","txt":"主席一直很喜歡開公聽會這一件有沒有考慮要先開公聽會剛剛我已經宣告了\n有是不是?沒有沒有我說我待會等今天的詢答發言之後我會處理因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見所以是今天詢答完畢才會決定要不要這樣走是不是?而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理好嗎?就是那個黃委員那個提案是的因為我覺得其實不管怎麼樣召開公聽會這件事情就是論事是合乎道理的\n議員：吳宗憲\n我不是宮廷會愛好者,你說我是流浪犬的愛好者,我會收容流浪犬,這我接受。宮廷會是有必要,不是因為愛好的關係。還有就是那個禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開宮廷會我回去反覆看那個影片,就可能你聽錯了,我當作你聽錯。\n欸對不起,你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎?我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文,是你的確有說過你不同意。我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎?我跟你講齁,你自己看,你不要去看人家整理的,因為我反覆看。那我也是建議你自己看,也可以看看人家整理的。\n自己看,也看看人家整你的,看看自己是不是看錯了。很多時候眼見為憑,然後另外就是說我個人就是說主席因為吼,因為你那天一直說這樣嘛,那我還是覺得誠信是做人做官處事的道理吼,那還有最後一個那個會議詢問問題就是因為剛剛主席喔,在那邊有\n我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號,我剛剛是拿著我們的\n立法委員首冊第14頁宣讀第57條以及第18頁第71條你可以看一下錄影帶跟主席報告一件事情如果主席剛剛講了光臨來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢他們說明我想一下請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周焯南秘書長的到此為止\n我還是要對你的詢問啊,你既然詢問我要回答啊周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長我們是合意製的立法委員的形成的立法院的議址在委員會跟院會秘書長都有來跟委員跟大院跟本院做報告的義務我這樣跟你說明我沒有說他沒有來的義務啊我沒有這樣講啊那我尊重你的感覺啦剛剛的第71條是得列席陳述意見沒關係啦\n請黃副秘書長\n兩位早安我想先請教一個問題就是說請教兩位一個問題加一個最基本的問題就是說為什麼要偵測稅務審查官簡單說就好\n因為現在這個新法之後那個為了要落實總和處理而且擴大那個行政法院的這個審理這個職權他可以自己做最後的判斷那這也就是自己去核到底要多少錢那他自己必須要有那個計算法要有這個計算的這個能力所以他必須要有專業有這種審查稅務的這個經驗的這些輔助的人員\n謝謝吳宗憲 我懂齁 那這個就是說其實我們在實務審判的時候法官不可能是全裁 所以很多東西以前是需要函詢那個行政機關嘛 那我們就是省掉這個過程齁 這個我可以理解 但是我想請教一下稅務官他的來源是什麼\n⋯⋯⋯⋯\n稅務機關本來從國稅局那邊過來,我想請教次長,這些稅審官他如果被領選上了,他在福利上面有什麼?因為剛中委員有請教這個問題,那他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同?目前可能要請我們秘書長來回應,因為這個部分我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。\n跟委員報告因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有那個制裁法院技術審查官他們過來以後通常我們會給他額外的這個這個這個加級那麼大概大概可以跟他原來的工作的那一個待遇有相當的這個然後通常以以往的這個經驗他們借調過來這個專業法院之後熟悉這個訴訟熟悉訴訟這邊操作借調往他回原單位也通常會得到不自拔著的這個機會\n我懂,我也幹過20幾年、24年的公務員,所以我也懂這個道理。所以呢,依照草案大概戒掉是3年嘛,對不對,依照你們的規劃是3年,那它會不會再延長啊?\n吳宗憲\n目前只有行政法院而且通常情形稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院那最高行政法院他也有需要那目前的臺北高等行政法院有四位的是司法事務官但是他專業程度跟我們將來的稅務官當然是不一樣\n人民在面對這個稅審官﹖因為稅審官他可以問﹖他甚至可以發問對不對﹖他可以像問政人﹖問當事人的那個方式他可以發問嘛﹖那我想請教一下今天我們\n⋯⋯⋯⋯\n就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣有人問祝安來秘書長然後叫了兩個律師兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人立場就已經偏頗嘛我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得說你今天法官來審理我的案子我的對照是稅務機關結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來那變成是兩個維歐我就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣\n在修理周恩來秘書長再找兩個律師來一起修理會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺?會不會?\n委員報告吼那這一個稅審官制度是參考既有的制裁法院的這個紀審官那麼紀審官在20年前在制定的時候曾經也有人因為他也是一樣從自衛局自衛局借料過來確實也有人曾經就這個懷疑但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候我們在在內部倫理上面對我們的紀審官是高度要求這一個倫理你絕對不可以結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後\n我講齁\n因為我想說這部分我們將來會做嚴格的要求。謝富密講的沒有錯。那你引用的那個制裁局那裡也沒有問題。我自己也在制裁局實習過。那我要講的一個是因為這些人三年到他要回歸到原單位嘛。所以他在法院的時候他\n吳宗憲\n﹏﹏﹏\n既然說每個人不是天使那你今天叫了一個將來三年後要回歸他原單位的這個人他一而家回去他一定是面臨面對還會升遷嘛這在公務機關都這樣外調回來長久升遷那這樣他有沒有可能持平的去看待每一個稅務案件他的獨立性夠不夠這個是我擔心的更何況我們今天那個監察院他在那個\n108年提出的納稅人權力保護法的調查報告其實它本來就是要保護納稅人它不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸所以今天這樣子的設計會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算結果我現在被法官跟稅審官兩個人K我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見\n我覺得委員關心這個問題當然是一般人民的想法但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話我相信他們會本於公正而且變成公平公就是合理的方式來處理這事情市長你講的都是理想就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者但是他一連串的下來\n我是打問號啦吼那人性跟理想還是有差距像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官經過約詢以後他們其實都很了解其實納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色\n因為我覺得我自己的了解這個狀況下有沒有可能就是說因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位而且還要在那邊升遷有沒有可能這三年他不敢去對抗自己的原來的單位然後再來因為法官對於稅務的理解性他的專業度不夠所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從\n⋯⋯\n你我不會嘛但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼這樣會變成說大家會不會認為說是合起來一起修理這個民眾我想說這可能是兩位可能還要去思考一下的這個問題啦就會不會說我們講說是對於納稅人的權利保護就反而到最後變成是納稅人們覺得人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他\n他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水就你反而結合其他人回來修理我所以我後來反而覺得剛剛那個複密所說的制裁局的部分的那個審查官到最後他變成是自己來培養然後他就是專屬在制裁局這樣我反而也許是一個更好的設計或者是說你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考\n﹏﹏﹏\n我最後再提一個東西就是說\n其實這次有一個就你們草案第20條是不是有提到說人民的稅務糾紛譬如說那個稅務單位要你補20萬然後你們內部救濟程序就是復查訴願之後走上法院嘛那這時候同一個稅務事件如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊那這所以是重開一張補稅單20萬還是開單5萬然後併案一起審查是什麼樣狀況\n委員報告,如果說發現有別的,然後是用數字變最佳的部分,再補開一個嗎?沒有沒有,他是說另行做成新處分。稅是多少?只是不需要,就是一個25號。那你們有沒有想過說,這個新的處分他沒有經過復查訴願,他就可以取代原來的稅單。這是不是一個問題?我想請教兩位。\n我想其實這個是基於程序經濟就像其實他的科稅基礎事實原則上大部分是相同的所以其實之前被取代掉的那個處分他已經經過複查跟訴願那我們免除的只是他起訴的前置的程序而已那後面的審極利益是完全不受影響的\n當然啦我沒有提到審極利益啦我只是說復查書院的這個會不會大家覺得我後面補的你補開給我的那個東西我卻漏掉了那兩個救濟的程序吼\n好吧那所以這個東西也麻煩你們稍微注意一下因為這是我看你們草案之後我覺得這是一個問題因為他變成說新的這一塊變成他反而少掉了他原本有原有的救濟程序後面審期我沒有意見那我跟你說齁這稅務爭議解決的方式其實還有很多種不是只有訴訟啦比如說你們那個你們107年有設置那個納稅權力保護官嘛然後行政訴訟也有一個調解\n﹏﹏\n兩位都能夠注意這個不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛還有很多其他的途徑那個對人民比較有利好不好一般人民到法院都還要請律師還有很多成本支出好謝謝各位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.169 --> 00:07.677\n主席一直很喜歡開公聽會這一件有沒有考慮要先開公聽會剛剛我已經宣告了\n\n00:19.444 --> 00:46.612\n有是不是?沒有沒有我說我待會等今天的詢答發言之後我會處理因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見所以是今天詢答完畢才會決定要不要這樣走是不是?而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理好嗎?就是那個黃委員那個提案是的因為我覺得其實不管怎麼樣召開公聽會這件事情就是論事是合乎道理的\n\n00:46.952 --> 00:46.972\n議員：吳宗憲\n\n01:04.732 --> 01:21.751\n我不是宮廷會愛好者,你說我是流浪犬的愛好者,我會收容流浪犬,這我接受。宮廷會是有必要,不是因為愛好的關係。還有就是那個禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開宮廷會我回去反覆看那個影片,就可能你聽錯了,我當作你聽錯。\n\n01:22.812 --> 01:39.885\n欸對不起,你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎?我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文,是你的確有說過你不同意。我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎?我跟你講齁,你自己看,你不要去看人家整理的,因為我反覆看。那我也是建議你自己看,也可以看看人家整理的。\n\n01:42.012 --> 02:02.046\n自己看,也看看人家整你的,看看自己是不是看錯了。很多時候眼見為憑,然後另外就是說我個人就是說主席因為吼,因為你那天一直說這樣嘛,那我還是覺得誠信是做人做官處事的道理吼,那還有最後一個那個會議詢問問題就是因為剛剛主席喔,在那邊有\n\n02:03.353 --> 02:03.833\n我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號,我剛剛是拿著我們的\n\n02:25.652 --> 02:53.772\n立法委員首冊第14頁宣讀第57條以及第18頁第71條你可以看一下錄影帶跟主席報告一件事情如果主席剛剛講了光臨來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢他們說明我想一下請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周焯南秘書長的到此為止\n\n02:55.202 --> 03:18.416\n我還是要對你的詢問啊,你既然詢問我要回答啊周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長我們是合意製的立法委員的形成的立法院的議址在委員會跟院會秘書長都有來跟委員跟大院跟本院做報告的義務我這樣跟你說明我沒有說他沒有來的義務啊我沒有這樣講啊那我尊重你的感覺啦剛剛的第71條是得列席陳述意見沒關係啦\n\n03:22.919 --> 03:23.079\n請黃副秘書長\n\n03:52.336 --> 04:02.103\n兩位早安我想先請教一個問題就是說請教兩位一個問題加一個最基本的問題就是說為什麼要偵測稅務審查官簡單說就好\n\n04:23.151 --> 04:44.279\n因為現在這個新法之後那個為了要落實總和處理而且擴大那個行政法院的這個審理這個職權他可以自己做最後的判斷那這也就是自己去核到底要多少錢那他自己必須要有那個計算法要有這個計算的這個能力所以他必須要有專業有這種審查稅務的這個經驗的這些輔助的人員\n\n04:47.201 --> 05:04.572\n謝謝吳宗憲我懂齁那這個就是說其實我們在實務審判的時候法官不可能是全裁所以很多東西以前是需要函詢那個行政機關嘛那我們就是省掉這個過程齁這個我可以理解但是我想請教一下稅務官他的來源是什麼\n\n05:24.885 --> 05:44.378\n稅務機關本來從國稅局那邊過來,我想請教次長,這些稅審官他如果被領選上了,他在福利上面有什麼?因為剛中委員有請教這個問題,那他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同?目前可能要請我們秘書長來回應,因為這個部分我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。\n\n05:47.080 --> 06:14.007\n跟委員報告因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有那個制裁法院技術審查官他們過來以後通常我們會給他額外的這個這個這個加級那麼大概大概可以跟他原來的工作的那一個待遇有相當的這個然後通常以以往的這個經驗他們借調過來這個專業法院之後熟悉這個訴訟熟悉訴訟這邊操作借調往他回原單位也通常會得到不自拔著的這個機會\n\n06:15.668 --> 06:27.401\n我懂,我也幹過20幾年、24年的公務員,所以我也懂這個道理。所以呢,依照草案大概戒掉是3年嘛,對不對,依照你們的規劃是3年,那它會不會再延長啊?\n\n06:29.568 --> 06:29.588\n吳宗憲\n\n06:50.375 --> 07:08.721\n目前只有行政法院而且通常情形稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院那最高行政法院他也有需要那目前的臺北高等行政法院有四位的是司法事務官但是他專業程度跟我們將來的稅務官當然是不一樣\n\n07:09.701 --> 07:12.604\n人民在面對這個稅審官﹖因為稅審官他可以問﹖他甚至可以發問對不對﹖他可以像問政人﹖問當事人的那個方式他可以發問嘛﹖那我想請教一下今天我們\n\n07:49.670 --> 08:17.369\n就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣有人問祝安來秘書長然後叫了兩個律師兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人立場就已經偏頗嘛我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得說你今天法官來審理我的案子我的對照是稅務機關結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來那變成是兩個維歐我就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣\n\n08:19.212 --> 08:25.010\n在修理周恩來秘書長再找兩個律師來一起修理會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺?會不會?\n\n08:27.541 --> 08:51.762\n委員報告吼那這一個稅審官制度是參考既有的制裁法院的這個紀審官那麼紀審官在20年前在制定的時候曾經也有人因為他也是一樣從自衛局自衛局借料過來確實也有人曾經就這個懷疑但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候我們在在內部倫理上面對我們的紀審官是高度要求這一個倫理你絕對不可以結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後\n\n08:52.363 --> 08:52.383\n我講齁\n\n09:11.854 --> 09:30.766\n因為我想說這部分我們將來會做嚴格的要求。謝富密講的沒有錯。那你引用的那個制裁局那裡也沒有問題。我自己也在制裁局實習過。那我要講的一個是因為這些人三年到他要回歸到原單位嘛。所以他在法院的時候他\n\n09:31.627 --> 09:31.647\n吳宗憲\n\n10:02.995 --> 10:27.854\n既然說每個人不是天使那你今天叫了一個將來三年後要回歸他原單位的這個人他一而家回去他一定是面臨面對還會升遷嘛這在公務機關都這樣外調回來長久升遷那這樣他有沒有可能持平的去看待每一個稅務案件他的獨立性夠不夠這個是我擔心的更何況我們今天那個監察院他在那個\n\n10:29.035 --> 10:52.737\n108年提出的納稅人權力保護法的調查報告其實它本來就是要保護納稅人它不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸所以今天這樣子的設計會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算結果我現在被法官跟稅審官兩個人K我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見\n\n10:54.597 --> 11:18.235\n我覺得委員關心這個問題當然是一般人民的想法但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話我相信他們會本於公正而且變成公平公就是合理的方式來處理這事情市長你講的都是理想就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者但是他一連串的下來\n\n11:19.488 --> 11:37.789\n我是打問號啦吼那人性跟理想還是有差距像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官經過約詢以後他們其實都很了解其實納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色\n\n11:40.495 --> 11:59.403\n因為我覺得我自己的了解這個狀況下有沒有可能就是說因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位而且還要在那邊升遷有沒有可能這三年他不敢去對抗自己的原來的單位然後再來因為法官對於稅務的理解性他的專業度不夠所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從\n\n12:31.104 --> 12:56.220\n你我不會嘛但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼這樣會變成說大家會不會認為說是合起來一起修理這個民眾我想說這可能是兩位可能還要去思考一下的這個問題啦就會不會說我們講說是對於納稅人的權利保護就反而到最後變成是納稅人們覺得人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他\n\n12:57.020 --> 13:19.259\n他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水就你反而結合其他人回來修理我所以我後來反而覺得剛剛那個複密所說的制裁局的部分的那個審查官到最後他變成是自己來培養然後他就是專屬在制裁局這樣我反而也許是一個更好的設計或者是說你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考\n\n13:40.328 --> 13:41.389\n我最後再提一個東西就是說\n\n14:02.915 --> 14:19.206\n其實這次有一個就你們草案第20條是不是有提到說人民的稅務糾紛譬如說那個稅務單位要你補20萬然後你們內部救濟程序就是復查訴願之後走上法院嘛那這時候同一個稅務事件如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊那這所以是重開一張補稅單20萬還是開單5萬然後併案一起審查是什麼樣狀況\n\n14:29.668 --> 14:53.037\n委員報告,如果說發現有別的,然後是用數字變最佳的部分,再補開一個嗎?沒有沒有,他是說另行做成新處分。稅是多少?只是不需要,就是一個25號。那你們有沒有想過說,這個新的處分他沒有經過復查訴願,他就可以取代原來的稅單。這是不是一個問題?我想請教兩位。\n\n15:00.699 --> 15:21.506\n我想其實這個是基於程序經濟就像其實他的科稅基礎事實原則上大部分是相同的所以其實之前被取代掉的那個處分他已經經過複查跟訴願那我們免除的只是他起訴的前置的程序而已那後面的審極利益是完全不受影響的\n\n15:21.926 --> 15:32.455\n當然啦我沒有提到審極利益啦我只是說復查書院的這個會不會大家覺得我後面補的你補開給我的那個東西我卻漏掉了那兩個救濟的程序吼\n\n15:33.712 --> 16:01.472\n好吧那所以這個東西也麻煩你們稍微注意一下因為這是我看你們草案之後我覺得這是一個問題因為他變成說新的這一塊變成他反而少掉了他原本有原有的救濟程序後面審期我沒有意見那我跟你說齁這稅務爭議解決的方式其實還有很多種不是只有訴訟啦比如說你們那個你們107年有設置那個納稅權力保護官嘛然後行政訴訟也有一個調解\n\n16:22.535 --> 16:35.649\n兩位都能夠注意這個不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛還有很多其他的途徑那個對人民比較有利好不好一般人民到法院都還要請律師還有很多成本支出好謝謝各位\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.169,"end":7.677,"text":"主席一直很喜歡開公聽會這一件有沒有考慮要先開公聽會剛剛我已經宣告了"},{"start":19.444,"end":46.612,"text":"有是不是?沒有沒有我說我待會等今天的詢答發言之後我會處理因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見所以是今天詢答完畢才會決定要不要這樣走是不是?而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理好嗎?就是那個黃委員那個提案是的因為我覺得其實不管怎麼樣召開公聽會這件事情就是論事是合乎道理的"},{"start":46.952,"end":46.972,"text":"議員：吳宗憲"},{"start":64.732,"end":81.751,"text":"我不是宮廷會愛好者,你說我是流浪犬的愛好者,我會收容流浪犬,這我接受。宮廷會是有必要,不是因為愛好的關係。還有就是那個禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開宮廷會我回去反覆看那個影片,就可能你聽錯了,我當作你聽錯。"},{"start":82.812,"end":99.885,"text":"欸對不起,你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎?我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文,是你的確有說過你不同意。我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎?我跟你講齁,你自己看,你不要去看人家整理的,因為我反覆看。那我也是建議你自己看,也可以看看人家整理的。"},{"start":102.012,"end":122.046,"text":"自己看,也看看人家整你的,看看自己是不是看錯了。很多時候眼見為憑,然後另外就是說我個人就是說主席因為吼,因為你那天一直說這樣嘛,那我還是覺得誠信是做人做官處事的道理吼,那還有最後一個那個會議詢問問題就是因為剛剛主席喔,在那邊有"},{"start":123.353,"end":123.833,"text":"我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號,我剛剛是拿著我們的"},{"start":145.652,"end":173.772,"text":"立法委員首冊第14頁宣讀第57條以及第18頁第71條你可以看一下錄影帶跟主席報告一件事情如果主席剛剛講了光臨來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢他們說明我想一下請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周焯南秘書長的到此為止"},{"start":175.202,"end":198.416,"text":"我還是要對你的詢問啊,你既然詢問我要回答啊周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長我們是合意製的立法委員的形成的立法院的議址在委員會跟院會秘書長都有來跟委員跟大院跟本院做報告的義務我這樣跟你說明我沒有說他沒有來的義務啊我沒有這樣講啊那我尊重你的感覺啦剛剛的第71條是得列席陳述意見沒關係啦"},{"start":202.919,"end":203.079,"text":"請黃副秘書長"},{"start":232.336,"end":242.103,"text":"兩位早安我想先請教一個問題就是說請教兩位一個問題加一個最基本的問題就是說為什麼要偵測稅務審查官簡單說就好"},{"start":263.151,"end":284.279,"text":"因為現在這個新法之後那個為了要落實總和處理而且擴大那個行政法院的這個審理這個職權他可以自己做最後的判斷那這也就是自己去核到底要多少錢那他自己必須要有那個計算法要有這個計算的這個能力所以他必須要有專業有這種審查稅務的這個經驗的這些輔助的人員"},{"start":287.201,"end":304.572,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲 我懂齁 那這個就是說其實我們在實務審判的時候法官不可能是全裁 所以很多東西以前是需要函詢那個行政機關嘛 那我們就是省掉這個過程齁 這個我可以理解 但是我想請教一下稅務官他的來源是什麼"},{"start":306.254,"end":324.104,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":324.885,"end":344.378,"text":"稅務機關本來從國稅局那邊過來,我想請教次長,這些稅審官他如果被領選上了,他在福利上面有什麼?因為剛中委員有請教這個問題,那他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同?目前可能要請我們秘書長來回應,因為這個部分我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。"},{"start":347.08,"end":374.007,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有那個制裁法院技術審查官他們過來以後通常我們會給他額外的這個這個這個加級那麼大概大概可以跟他原來的工作的那一個待遇有相當的這個然後通常以以往的這個經驗他們借調過來這個專業法院之後熟悉這個訴訟熟悉訴訟這邊操作借調往他回原單位也通常會得到不自拔著的這個機會"},{"start":375.668,"end":387.401,"text":"我懂,我也幹過20幾年、24年的公務員,所以我也懂這個道理。所以呢,依照草案大概戒掉是3年嘛,對不對,依照你們的規劃是3年,那它會不會再延長啊?"},{"start":389.568,"end":389.588,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":410.375,"end":428.721,"text":"目前只有行政法院而且通常情形稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院那最高行政法院他也有需要那目前的臺北高等行政法院有四位的是司法事務官但是他專業程度跟我們將來的稅務官當然是不一樣"},{"start":429.701,"end":432.604,"text":"人民在面對這個稅審官﹖因為稅審官他可以問﹖他甚至可以發問對不對﹖他可以像問政人﹖問當事人的那個方式他可以發問嘛﹖那我想請教一下今天我們"},{"start":449.701,"end":468.677,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":469.67,"end":497.369,"text":"就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣有人問祝安來秘書長然後叫了兩個律師兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人立場就已經偏頗嘛我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得說你今天法官來審理我的案子我的對照是稅務機關結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來那變成是兩個維歐我就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣"},{"start":499.212,"end":505.01,"text":"在修理周恩來秘書長再找兩個律師來一起修理會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺?會不會?"},{"start":507.541,"end":531.762,"text":"委員報告吼那這一個稅審官制度是參考既有的制裁法院的這個紀審官那麼紀審官在20年前在制定的時候曾經也有人因為他也是一樣從自衛局自衛局借料過來確實也有人曾經就這個懷疑但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候我們在在內部倫理上面對我們的紀審官是高度要求這一個倫理你絕對不可以結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後"},{"start":532.363,"end":532.383,"text":"我講齁"},{"start":551.854,"end":570.766,"text":"因為我想說這部分我們將來會做嚴格的要求。謝富密講的沒有錯。那你引用的那個制裁局那裡也沒有問題。我自己也在制裁局實習過。那我要講的一個是因為這些人三年到他要回歸到原單位嘛。所以他在法院的時候他"},{"start":571.627,"end":571.647,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":586.698,"end":602.875,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":602.995,"end":627.854,"text":"既然說每個人不是天使那你今天叫了一個將來三年後要回歸他原單位的這個人他一而家回去他一定是面臨面對還會升遷嘛這在公務機關都這樣外調回來長久升遷那這樣他有沒有可能持平的去看待每一個稅務案件他的獨立性夠不夠這個是我擔心的更何況我們今天那個監察院他在那個"},{"start":629.035,"end":652.737,"text":"108年提出的納稅人權力保護法的調查報告其實它本來就是要保護納稅人它不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸所以今天這樣子的設計會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算結果我現在被法官跟稅審官兩個人K我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":654.597,"end":678.235,"text":"我覺得委員關心這個問題當然是一般人民的想法但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話我相信他們會本於公正而且變成公平公就是合理的方式來處理這事情市長你講的都是理想就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者但是他一連串的下來"},{"start":679.488,"end":697.789,"text":"我是打問號啦吼那人性跟理想還是有差距像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官經過約詢以後他們其實都很了解其實納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色"},{"start":700.495,"end":719.403,"text":"因為我覺得我自己的了解這個狀況下有沒有可能就是說因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位而且還要在那邊升遷有沒有可能這三年他不敢去對抗自己的原來的單位然後再來因為法官對於稅務的理解性他的專業度不夠所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從"},{"start":720.964,"end":750.964,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":751.104,"end":776.22,"text":"你我不會嘛但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼這樣會變成說大家會不會認為說是合起來一起修理這個民眾我想說這可能是兩位可能還要去思考一下的這個問題啦就會不會說我們講說是對於納稅人的權利保護就反而到最後變成是納稅人們覺得人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他"},{"start":777.02,"end":799.259,"text":"他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水就你反而結合其他人回來修理我所以我後來反而覺得剛剛那個複密所說的制裁局的部分的那個審查官到最後他變成是自己來培養然後他就是專屬在制裁局這樣我反而也許是一個更好的設計或者是說你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考"},{"start":801.288,"end":820.128,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":820.328,"end":821.389,"text":"我最後再提一個東西就是說"},{"start":842.915,"end":859.206,"text":"其實這次有一個就你們草案第20條是不是有提到說人民的稅務糾紛譬如說那個稅務單位要你補20萬然後你們內部救濟程序就是復查訴願之後走上法院嘛那這時候同一個稅務事件如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊那這所以是重開一張補稅單20萬還是開單5萬然後併案一起審查是什麼樣狀況"},{"start":869.668,"end":893.037,"text":"委員報告,如果說發現有別的,然後是用數字變最佳的部分,再補開一個嗎?沒有沒有,他是說另行做成新處分。稅是多少?只是不需要,就是一個25號。那你們有沒有想過說,這個新的處分他沒有經過復查訴願,他就可以取代原來的稅單。這是不是一個問題?我想請教兩位。"},{"start":900.699,"end":921.506,"text":"我想其實這個是基於程序經濟就像其實他的科稅基礎事實原則上大部分是相同的所以其實之前被取代掉的那個處分他已經經過複查跟訴願那我們免除的只是他起訴的前置的程序而已那後面的審極利益是完全不受影響的"},{"start":921.926,"end":932.455,"text":"當然啦我沒有提到審極利益啦我只是說復查書院的這個會不會大家覺得我後面補的你補開給我的那個東西我卻漏掉了那兩個救濟的程序吼"},{"start":933.712,"end":961.472,"text":"好吧那所以這個東西也麻煩你們稍微注意一下因為這是我看你們草案之後我覺得這是一個問題因為他變成說新的這一塊變成他反而少掉了他原本有原有的救濟程序後面審期我沒有意見那我跟你說齁這稅務爭議解決的方式其實還有很多種不是只有訴訟啦比如說你們那個你們107年有設置那個納稅權力保護官嘛然後行政訴訟也有一個調解"},{"start":962.193,"end":982.295,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":982.535,"end":995.649,"text":"兩位都能夠注意這個不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛還有很多其他的途徑那個對人民比較有利好不好一般人民到法院都還要請律師還有很多成本支出好謝謝各位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時7分）主席，我有一個會議詢問，請教主席一個問題，就是主席一直很喜歡開公聽會，那這一件有沒有考慮要先開公聽會？"],["主席：剛剛我已經宣告了。"],["吳委員宗憲：有，是不是？"],["主席：沒有、沒有，我說待會等今天的詢答、發言之後，我會處理，因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以是今天詢答完畢才會決定要不要這樣走，是不是？"],["主席：而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案，大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的，所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理，好嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：就是黃委員那個提案？"],["主席：是的、是的，因為我覺得不管怎麼樣，召開公聽會這件事情就事論事是合乎道理的，也符合大家的期望，該怎麼處理，我們由委員會這邊共同來討論，好嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，因為主席之前在上個禮拜其實一直主張要開公聽會嘛。"],["主席：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：包括到這個禮拜一，所以我想說主席應該是公聽會愛好者，應該這一件其實……"],["主席：我不是公聽會愛好者，你說我是流浪犬的愛好者、我會收容流浪犬，這個我接受，公聽會是有必要，不是因為愛好的關係，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：還有就是禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開公聽會，後來我回去反覆看那個影片，可能你聽錯了啦，我當作你聽錯。"],["主席：對不起，你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎？我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文，你的確有說過你不同意，我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，你自己看，你不要去看人家整理的，因為我反覆看。"],["主席：那我也是建議你自己看，也可以看看人家整理的。"],["吳委員宗憲：看看人家……"],["主席：自己看，也看看人家整理的，看看自己是不是看錯了。"],["吳委員宗憲：很多時候眼見為憑，另外，主席，因為你那天一直說這樣嘛，那我還是覺得誠信是做人、做官處事的道理。還有最後一個會議詢問的問題，因為剛剛主席在那邊有嘴黃國昌，你說你引憲判9號……"],["主席：你說什麼嘴黃國昌？我是就憲法條文做一個說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：對、對、對，憲判9號嘛。"],["主席：不是憲判9號，我是根據我們的憲法本文第五十七條跟第七十一條。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，沒有，我跟你講，我剛剛講的是憲判9號，你是說官員來這裡是詢問嘛，對不對？你剛剛講……"],["主席：我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號，我剛剛是拿著我們的立法委員手冊第14頁，宣讀第五十七條以及第18頁第七十一條。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，OK，沒關係，我在這邊跟主席報告……"],["主席：你可以看一下錄影帶。"],["吳委員宗憲：跟主席報告一件事情，如果主席剛剛講的，官員來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢嘛，那……"],["主席：他們說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我講一下，請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周萬來秘書長的？好，到此為止！"],["主席：我還是要對你的詢問，你既然詢問我，我要回答啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：可以、可以，我說到此為止。"],["主席：周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長，我們是合議制的立法委員形成的立法院的意旨，在委員會跟院會，秘書長都有來跟委員跟本院做報告的義務，我這樣跟你說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有說他沒有來的義務，我沒有這樣講啊！"],["主席：好，我尊重你的感覺。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意思是任何人來這裡……"],["主席：剛剛的第七十一條是得列席陳述意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係啦！"],["主席：周萬來秘書長不是用這個列席陳述意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：做人誠信是最基本，至少……"],["主席：這個也奉勸你做人要有誠信。"],["吳委員宗憲：至於其他委員從來不把誠信當一件事，說謊造謠當做做人處事的道理，那就算了，我沒有說你，那就算了！"],["主席：謝謝，我也沒有說你，但是我們希望大家共同尊重。"],["吳委員宗憲：請副秘書長。"],["主席：有請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們另外請財政部政次，謝謝。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位早安。我想先請教兩位一個問題，一個最基本的問題，為什麼要增設稅務審查官？簡單說就好。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為現在新法之後，為了要落實總額主義，而且擴大行政法院審理稅務的職權，他可以自己做最後的判斷，也就是自己去核到底要多少錢，法院自己必須要有計算的能力，所以必須要有專業、有這種審查稅務經驗的輔助人員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝副秘，我懂，這個就是我們在實務審判的時候，法官不可能是全才，所以很多東西以前是需要函詢行政機關，但我們就是省掉這個過程，這個我可以理解。但是我想請教一下，稅務官的來源是什麼？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們目前的規劃主要都是借調，比如說國稅局、稅務機關本身有稅務審查核課經驗的人員到我們這邊來幫忙法官。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以他們的來源是哪裡，你可以再說明一次嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可能是稅務機關、可能是國稅局這些稅務單位。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是從國稅局這些稅務機關那邊過來。好，我想請教次長，這些稅審官如果被遴選上了，他在福利上面有什麼？因為剛剛鍾委員也有請教這個問題，他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同？"],["李次長慶華：這可能要請秘書長來回應，因為這個部分，我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。副秘書長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有的智財法院技術審查官，他們過來以後，通常我們會給額外的加給，大概可以跟他原來的工作待遇有相當的……然後通常情形，以以往的經驗，他們借調過來專業法院之後，熟悉訴訟這邊的操作，借調完再回原單位，也通常會得到不次拔擢的機會……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這個我懂，我也幹過24年的公務員，所以我也懂這個道理。依照草案，借調是3年，對不對？依照你們的規劃是3年，那它會不會再延長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：依照已經操作的技審官十幾年，他們都沒有延長，因為他們的目的就是來這邊了解一下訴訟，協助之後他們就會回去，把這個訴訟的經驗傳承給他們的原單位。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以是3年就對了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：全國每個法院都會配置嗎？還是……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，目前只有行政……而且通常情形，稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院，最高行政法院也有需要，目前臺北高等行政法院有4位是司法事務官，但是專業程度跟將來的稅審官當然是不一樣，所以不會全國法院都有。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。這個立意，我可以理解它背後的邏輯等等，但是這有沒有考量到另外一個比較實際的問題，就是人民在面對這個稅審官，因為稅審官甚至可以發問對不對？他可以像問證人、問當事人的那個方式，他可以發問嘛！我想請教一下，當法官在下判決的時候，因為他的專業度可能不足，這是先天上的問題，結果我們今天要請稅審官來協助法官，但你剛剛說稅審官又是從稅務單位遴選好的人過來，有沒有可能到最後在人民的角度來看，就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣，有人問周萬來秘書長，然後叫了兩個律師，兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人，立場就已經偏頗了，我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得，今天法官來審理我的案子，我的對造是稅務機關，結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來，那變成是兩個圍毆我，就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣，在修理周萬來秘書長，再找兩個律師來一起修理，會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺？會不會？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這個稅審官制度是參考既有的智財法院的技審官，技審官在20年前在制定的時候，因為也是一樣從智慧局借調過來，確實也有人曾經有這個懷疑，但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候，我們在內部倫理上對我們的技審官是高度要求這個倫理，絕對不可以，結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後，反而是智慧局說他們過來的技審官常常撤銷他們自己的原來處分，為什麼？因為在訴訟過程中的時候，法院由法官依照正當法律程序的原則，再要求專業輔助人員，所以他不可能跨過法官這個正當法律程序的界限。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這部分在將來我們會做嚴格要求。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝副秘，講得沒有錯！你引用智財局那裡也沒有問題，我自己也在智財局實習過。我要講的是因為這些人3年到他要回歸到原單位，所以他在法院的時候，我覺得這是一個人性的問題，你要去反駁原來機關的一些想法，甚至可能因為這樣，然後讓他以前的長官覺得困擾，這個是一個比較反人性的設計。當然從理論的角度，如果每個人都是天使的話，這絕對是一個可行的模式，但是我們知道不是人人都是天使，就像政府不是由天使組成的，所以需要制衡，這個是美國第四任總統說的。既然每個人不是天使，你今天叫了一個將來3年後要回歸原單位的人，他回去一定還會面對升遷，這在公務機關都這樣，外調回來常常就是升遷，這樣他有沒有可能持平地去看待每一個稅務案件？他的獨立性夠不夠？這個是我擔心的！更何況監察院在108年所提出來的納稅人權利保護法調查報告，其實本來就是要保護納稅人，而不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸，所以今天這樣子的設計，會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算了，結果我現在要被法官和稅審官兩個人K，我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見？"],["李次長慶華：我覺得委員關心這個問題，當然是一般人民的想法，但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話，我相信他們會本於公正，而且本著公平、合理的方式來處理這個事情。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，你講的都是理想，就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者，但是一連串下來，我是打問號啦！"],["李次長慶華：是，但是我覺得委員未來應該可以去見證這件事情。"],["吳委員宗憲：人性跟理想還是有差距。"],["李次長慶華：像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情，其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官，經過約詢以後，他們其實都很了解，納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係。我覺得我自己的了解，這個狀況下有沒有可能……因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位，而且還要在那邊升遷，有沒有可能這3年他不敢去對抗自己原來的單位？再來，因為法官對於稅務的理解性、他的專業度不夠，所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從？正常狀況是這樣。就像以前我行文去行政機關詢問問題，他回來給我的東西當然我會列為最主要的參考，但是以前我們就是用行文的方式，行文、你回來，然後我自己再做個研判，如果說將來在法院裡面去設計一個稅審官，甚至他還可以對當事人直接去詢問，我跟各位保證一件事情，就像這個社會永遠搞不清楚法官跟檢察官有什麼不一樣；一樣，人民也搞不清楚法官跟稅審官會有什麼不一樣！我跟你保證人民一定是這樣子，你、我不會嘛！但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼。這樣會變成大家會不會認為是合起來一起修理這個民眾？這可能是兩位還要去思考一下的問題。會不會我們說是對納稅人的權利保護，結果到最後，反而變成納稅人們、人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他，他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水，結果你反而結合其他人回來修理我。所以我覺得剛剛副秘所說的智財局的審查官，到最後變成是自己來培養，然後他就是專屬在智財局，這樣我反而覺得也許是一個更好的設計，或者你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考，讓他變成一個正式的編制？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這個部分當然將來會有，但是目前審查的稅審法這個部分，法官要做推計課稅是蠻需要稅務的實際操作，初期我們大概還是只能先用借調，長期自己是不是能夠培養，這個我們會再研議，因為技術審查官已經有大概一、二十年操作經驗，我們會做進一步的規劃。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，最後我再提一個問題，就是你們的草案第二十條提到人民的稅務糾紛，譬如稅捐單位要民眾補20萬，然後你們內部的救濟程序就是復查、訴願，之後走上法院，這時候同一個稅務事件，如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊，那麼是重開一張補稅單25萬，還是再開單5萬，然後併案一起審查？是什麼樣的狀況？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，如果發現有別的，然後是數字追加，那麼變更追加部分就再補開一個……"],["程廳長怡怡：沒有！沒有！他是說另行作一個處分……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：另行作成新處分。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以是多少？"],["程廳長怡怡：25萬。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是一個25萬？好，那你們有沒有想過，這個新的處分並沒有經過復查、訴願，就可以取代原來的稅單，這是不是一個問題？我想請教兩位。"],["程廳長怡怡：報告委員，我可以發言嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：請說。"],["程廳長怡怡：其實這是基於程序經濟，事實上，他的課稅基礎原則上大部分相同，而之前被取代掉的那個處分，已經經過復查跟訴願，那我們免除的只是起訴的前置程序而已，後面的審級利益完全不受影響。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然啦！我沒有提到審級利益，我只是說復查、訴願的這個部分，會不會讓大家覺得後面補開的那個東西漏掉了那兩個救濟程序？好吧！這個部分也麻煩你們稍微注意一下，這是我看你們的草案之後發現的一個問題，因為變成新的這一塊反而少掉了原有的救濟程序，後面審級我沒有意見。","其實稅務爭議解決的方式還有很多種，不是只有訴訟，譬如你們107年設置的納稅權利保護官，還有行政訴訟也有一個調解機制存在，另外就是還有一個……就是不需要什麼事情都一定要丟到法院審理，你們可以善用一些訴訟外的方式解決，因為現在不都講求這個嗎？不管院檢，現在都講求希望能夠在訴訟外以調解模式處理，所以我想麻煩兩位能夠注意這個問題，並不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛，還有很多其他途徑，那個對人民比較有利，好不好？不然人民到法院都還要請律師，需要很多成本支出。好，謝謝各位。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝副秘書長、謝謝次長，也謝謝我們吳召委。","在這裡，也要回復剛剛吳召委在質詢當中提出的問題，關於本週一本委員會邀請的那兩位，是依憲法第六十七條規定，邀請社會上有關係人員到會備詢。至於說如果有人自認為是律師的兒子，又認為律師是拿錢辦事，那純屬他個人的經驗之談，不是本席、本召委邀請他們到會的目的，而是依據他們的法律專業。"],["吳委員宗憲：主席，我跟你講，你說的我都認同，我們是依據憲法請他們來，但是你們的作法其實是讓很多人不齒，你怎麼會叫兩位來，然後跟你一起修理……那天羅智強委員講了一句話，他說：主席，如果你有一根毛的公正性，就不會只請這兩位來。你可以兩造都請嘛！對不對？而不是單請單方面來……"],["主席：兩造都請，那就是辦公聽會了，國民黨同意，就可以邀請來參加公聽會……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我是依據憲法，你剛剛講是依據憲法……"],["主席：憲法是委員會……"],["吳委員宗憲：不要再講公聽會了……"],["主席：公聽會是各造都可以邀請，包括……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我覺得很有趣耶……"],["主席：吳召委，你上週也邀請了兩位法律專業人士……"],["吳委員宗憲：繞來繞去、繞來繞去……"],["吳委員思瑤：議事公正、議事公正，請吳宗憲召委自己把這句話回送給自己，議事公正這件事情……"],["吳委員宗憲：主席，繞來繞去，我覺得很簡單，你們這個作法……沒關係……"],["吳委員思瑤：請把這句話回收到你自己身上，好嗎？我反對吳委員對於鍾委員這種不當的指涉……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是真的非常罕見，好啦！沒關係，如果你要這麼做你就這麼做……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我抗議，吳委員對你進行嚴重的人格誣衊，我很不能接受耶！"],["主席：我瞭解吳召委啦！自稱是律師的兒子，又說律師是拿錢辦事，這樣的一個評價社會自有公評，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這太惡劣了吧！吳召委！"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，律師要接受委任才能到庭訴訟，你先搞清楚這個點。"],["吳委員思瑤：吳宗憲自己搞不清楚，在那邊……"],["主席：好，接下來我們請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}}