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\"end\": 387.939, \"text\": \"所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 371.42, \"end\": 371.54, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 371.54, \"end\": 371.62, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 371.62, \"end\": 371.681, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 371.681, \"end\": 371.921, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 371.921, \"end\": 372.061, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 372.061, \"end\": 372.161, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 372.161, \"end\": 372.321, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 372.321, \"end\": 372.962, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 372.962, \"end\": 373.923, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 373.923, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 610.995, \"end\": 611.675, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"拍\", \"start\": 611.675, \"end\": 612.055, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 612.055, \"end\": 612.155, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 612.155, \"end\": 612.495, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"材\", \"start\": 612.495, \"end\": 613.196, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 613.196, \"end\": 613.316, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 613.316, \"end\": 613.456, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 613.456, \"end\": 613.596, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 613.596, \"end\": 614.096, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 614.096, \"end\": 614.336, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 614.336, \"end\": 614.496, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 614.496, \"end\": 615.436, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 615.436, \"end\": 615.636, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 615.636, \"end\": 615.957, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 615.957, \"end\": 616.097, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 616.097, \"end\": 616.157, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"闊\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 616.157, \"end\": 616.177, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 617.597, \"end\": 617.617, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 617.617, \"end\": 617.657, \"score\": 0.483}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 617.657, \"end\": 617.697, \"score\": 0.042}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 617.697, \"end\": 617.717, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 617.717, \"end\": 617.817, \"score\": 0.421}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 617.817, \"end\": 617.837, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 617.837, \"end\": 617.957, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 617.957, \"end\": 617.977, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 617.977, \"end\": 617.997, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 617.997, \"end\": 618.138, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 618.138, \"end\": 618.158, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 618.158, \"end\": 618.178, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 618.178, \"end\": 618.258, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 618.258, \"end\": 618.278, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 618.278, \"end\": 618.298, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 618.298, \"end\": 618.318, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 618.318, \"end\": 618.338, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"瑾\", \"start\": 618.338, \"end\": 618.378, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 618.378, \"end\": 618.438, \"score\": 0.194}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 618.438, \"end\": 618.538, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 618.538, \"end\": 618.558, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 618.558, \"end\": 618.598, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 618.598, \"end\": 618.618, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 618.618, \"end\": 618.638, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 618.638, \"end\": 618.658, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 618.658, \"end\": 618.838, \"score\": 0.545}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 618.838, \"end\": 618.898, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"楊\"}, {\"word\": \"奎\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 618.898, \"end\": 618.938, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 618.938, \"end\": 618.958, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 618.958, \"end\": 618.978, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 618.978, \"end\": 619.038, \"score\": 0.609}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 619.038, \"end\": 619.058, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 619.058, \"end\": 619.098, \"score\": 0.009}, {\"word\": \"楊\"}, {\"word\": \"奎\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 619.098, \"end\": 619.118, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 619.118, \"end\": 619.179, \"score\": 0.651}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 619.179, \"end\": 619.199, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 619.199, \"end\": 619.259, \"score\": 0.238}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 619.259, \"end\": 619.279, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 619.279, \"end\": 619.379, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 619.379, \"end\": 619.419, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 619.419, \"end\": 619.439, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 619.439, \"end\": 619.459, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"瑾\", \"start\": 619.459, \"end\": 619.559, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 619.559, \"end\": 619.579, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,979 --> 00:00:05,402\n謝主席。有請部長跟文資局陳局長。\n\n2\n00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:35,137\n林委員你好部長好今天我們尋討的這個不義遺址保存條例是我們教育委員會來審查但是我們看見在我們教育委員會的委員當中沒有任何一個在野黨的委員來提出相關的提案那其實我是覺得很感慨\n\n3\n00:00:37,199 --> 00:00:59,829\n希望這部法案在進入逐條審查前藍白相關的教文委員應該可以提出各自的版本來參與討論。為什麼會這樣提?是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題。我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊。\n\n4\n00:01:01,570 --> 00:01:02,771\n我必須強調國民黨的威權統治是不分族群的迫害無論是對原住民或對漢人\n\n5\n00:01:18,607 --> 00:01:42,132\n甚至跟著國民黨一起來到台灣的政治移民同樣是在受害範圍內根據國家人權博物館發行的影片外省人的白色恐怖這部影片我們可以知道在政治犯的省級比例上本省級佔55%外省級是佔45%所以外省級裡面軍人被捕的這個比例又是最高\n\n6\n00:01:42,992 --> 00:02:04,380\n所以我們身為民意代表我覺得我們一舉一動都具有很大的雙面性一方面我們對民意要有傳達另一方面我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂恰恰相反轉型正義是各族群大團結\n\n7\n00:02:06,161 --> 00:02:26,586\n要求國家要來對於這個過去的錯誤做慎重的反省,正視這個過錯,確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。那所以我請要部長說你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法,就是說不義遺址保存條例這樣的性質若能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持跟做積極的討論,更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果。\n\n8\n00:02:30,427 --> 00:02:38,419\n所以不曉得部長在正式進入主條討論之前你有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說對於這部條例?\n\n9\n00:02:41,397 --> 00:03:01,395\n謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題。剛才我們前面的很多委員也問到一個問題就是說除了在民國34年到後來解元後的那個時間之外的所有原住民或者是清朝或者是在日本人統治台灣對台灣人的壓迫那件事情我全部都承認他的\n\n10\n00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:31,500\n加害者跟被害者這些事件我剛才也一再講到我們都拍過非常非常多的電影包括1895年所以都拍成電影但是我們今天審的這個反而是集中在威權統治這段時間因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的從228事件到白色恐怖它是一個很漫長的時間很漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來剛才講到外省人45%的話可是外省人當時的人口是更少的\n\n11\n00:03:32,020 --> 00:03:58,315\n對所以它受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派假如我沒有記錯的話人權管的設立不是在我目前執政黨的手上當然對那就表示說在原來人權管的設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題它不是一個藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算鬥爭對方不是所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過\n\n12\n00:03:59,235 --> 00:04:01,216\n«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n13\n00:04:28,428 --> 00:04:55,500\n當年人生的自由與財產剝奪是多麼容易的事。放在現在這個時代,大家言論這麼自由,你要講什麼都可以,你讀什麼書都可以,可是你很難想像在那個年代,你可能只不過是讀一本有點左派的書,你就被逮捕。你說不定說錯一句話,而且那句話也不是這個意思,也被關了十年,是想要讓大家看到那個不合理,你會覺得很荒謬。\n\n14\n00:04:56,700 --> 00:05:23,126\n我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算鬥爭,它應該是所有黨派都應該支持它通過。要來面對歷史。對。謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明。那我想我還跟你提到一個就是說台北市政府它現在主管的一個文化警官就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園。長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護。那去年有爆出說受難者家屬\n\n15\n00:05:25,247 --> 00:05:40,976\n一片殘存的竹蟲遭破壞之外,剛過世的許家輝議員當時也點出木園的入口跟指標系統不明確,道路毀損,所以它造成的安全疑慮以外,也讓探訪的民眾很可能會破壞木園的景觀。\n\n16\n00:05:45,819 --> 00:06:10,820\n當初為嘉賓議員呼籲說,台北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史,並且對這個狹下的不義遺址會啟動更積極的保存工作。可是看起來,直到今天,台北市政府還是依舊很消極。這幾天就有文史工作者反映說,屆時期政治受難者墓園,目前草長到可以遮蔽文資,第三墓區甚至都進不去。\n\n17\n00:06:11,420 --> 00:06:27,939\n所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法\n\n18\n00:06:32,113 --> 00:06:55,463\n可以請局長回答這個消息我知道我其實那個地點對我來講我也非常清楚有一部電影叫超級大國民還用那個地方來拍它是一個非常非常重要的地方但是因為它的管轄權是在地方我在這裡呼籲我希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情還是回到我原來剛才講的那個理念就是它不是一個\n\n19\n00:06:56,403 --> 00:07:01,025\n我希望大家不要有這樣的想法大家共同來維護這個值得保存下來的地方讓我們看到一些不能遺忘的歷史就只有這樣子而已好,謝謝部長那也請部長這個積極跟台北市政府要求看有什麼樣的協力作為那另外要請教是說促轉會公告就是說228級白色恐怖不義遺址有\n\n20\n00:07:24,833 --> 00:07:45,208\n共計42處。那這些不義遺址根據我們現在院版的這個條文42條直接就適用到所謂相關的保存規範可是我們還有一些所謂的潛在的不義遺址那根據院版條文第13條對於這些潛在的不義遺址主管機關是要建立個案資料來優先來審議那現在問題來了法務部也有注意到就這些優先審議又或者審議中這些潛在不義遺址是否\n\n21\n00:07:53,834 --> 00:08:20,913\n就是說我們要怎麼樣去把它除了優先審議以外怎麼做出比較相關的這個保障才會確保它未來這個會難以保存部長你聽懂我的意思嗎所以這些現在只是說優先審議而已那我的意思說在優先審議之外有沒有更具體的更多的保障目前不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址它已經被破壞殆盡了\n\n22\n00:08:27,941 --> 00:08:42,875\n我現在除了在審議之外,我們有幾些保護的措施。第一個我們只要是公部門的部分,我們有發文給他們,就是說如果這個有涉及到未來開發行為的話,先通知文化部,我們會協調來看是不是能夠盡量來不要去做一些破壞的這種動作。\n\n23\n00:08:45,392 --> 00:08:54,316\n最後30秒就是說我的選區新化就是說有一個出生在新化出生的很重要的文學家那大家有什麼能想的楊奎那楊奎先生明年就是他40週年那2026年是他名誕的120週年那我想這個那麼一個值得紀念的年份我們必須要有一些作為\n\n24\n00:09:08,741 --> 00:09:14,907\n我相當關心楊奎全集的出版。在今天質詢之前,我們團隊有跟文化部相關部會開會過,來追蹤這個進度。我想說要請教是說,不曉得現在這筆經費,因為我知道說我們人文及出版司要撥經費,要協助來出版楊奎全集。\n\n25\n00:09:30,803 --> 00:09:47,420\n我是想說要追蹤一下說這個經費不曉得什麼時候能如期來播放那以利的這個啟動招標那也要請部長藉由這次的詢答機會是不是向國人來介紹一下就是明後年楊奎全旗的出版跟相關的紀念活動\n\n26\n00:09:49,668 --> 00:10:16,177\n這筆金幣是透過文學館在編列,然後文化部正在審核當中,但是您講到楊奎正好就是一個最好的例子,他在日治時代的時候就被迫害,被關起來,到了國民政府的時候他再度被迫害,所以他所謂的迫害不是哪一個時代,我覺得他是一個非常好可以拍電影的題材,就可以講到這種所謂的不義的定義是比較開闊一點。\n\n27\n00:10:17,597 --> 00:10:19,579\n時間已經超過,是不是部長可以事後書面或是當面向林宜瑾委員回覆這個?我最近才剛剛在看楊奎的書。再請文化部協助楊奎全集的出版。謝謝,謝謝部長。好,謝謝林宜瑾委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2979\t5402\t謝主席。有請部長跟文資局陳局長。\n15356\t35137\t林委員你好部長好今天我們尋討的這個不義遺址保存條例是我們教育委員會來審查但是我們看見在我們教育委員會的委員當中沒有任何一個在野黨的委員來提出相關的提案那其實我是覺得很感慨\n37199\t59829\t希望這部法案在進入逐條審查前藍白相關的教文委員應該可以提出各自的版本來參與討論。為什麼會這樣提?是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題。我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊。\n61570\t62771\t我必須強調國民黨的威權統治是不分族群的迫害無論是對原住民或對漢人\n78607\t102132\t甚至跟著國民黨一起來到台灣的政治移民同樣是在受害範圍內根據國家人權博物館發行的影片外省人的白色恐怖這部影片我們可以知道在政治犯的省級比例上本省級佔55%外省級是佔45%所以外省級裡面軍人被捕的這個比例又是最高\n102992\t124380\t所以我們身為民意代表我覺得我們一舉一動都具有很大的雙面性一方面我們對民意要有傳達另一方面我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂恰恰相反轉型正義是各族群大團結\n126161\t146586\t要求國家要來對於這個過去的錯誤做慎重的反省,正視這個過錯,確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。那所以我請要部長說你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法,就是說不義遺址保存條例這樣的性質若能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持跟做積極的討論,更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果。\n150427\t158419\t所以不曉得部長在正式進入主條討論之前你有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說對於這部條例?\n161397\t181395\t謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題。剛才我們前面的很多委員也問到一個問題就是說除了在民國34年到後來解元後的那個時間之外的所有原住民或者是清朝或者是在日本人統治台灣對台灣人的壓迫那件事情我全部都承認他的\n182116\t211500\t加害者跟被害者這些事件我剛才也一再講到我們都拍過非常非常多的電影包括1895年所以都拍成電影但是我們今天審的這個反而是集中在威權統治這段時間因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的從228事件到白色恐怖它是一個很漫長的時間很漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來剛才講到外省人45%的話可是外省人當時的人口是更少的\n212020\t238315\t對所以它受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派假如我沒有記錯的話人權管的設立不是在我目前執政黨的手上當然對那就表示說在原來人權管的設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題它不是一個藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算鬥爭對方不是所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過\n239235\t241216\t«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n268428\t295500\t當年人生的自由與財產剝奪是多麼容易的事。放在現在這個時代,大家言論這麼自由,你要講什麼都可以,你讀什麼書都可以,可是你很難想像在那個年代,你可能只不過是讀一本有點左派的書,你就被逮捕。你說不定說錯一句話,而且那句話也不是這個意思,也被關了十年,是想要讓大家看到那個不合理,你會覺得很荒謬。\n296700\t323126\t我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算鬥爭,它應該是所有黨派都應該支持它通過。要來面對歷史。對。謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明。那我想我還跟你提到一個就是說台北市政府它現在主管的一個文化警官就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園。長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護。那去年有爆出說受難者家屬\n325247\t340976\t一片殘存的竹蟲遭破壞之外,剛過世的許家輝議員當時也點出木園的入口跟指標系統不明確,道路毀損,所以它造成的安全疑慮以外,也讓探訪的民眾很可能會破壞木園的景觀。\n345819\t370820\t當初為嘉賓議員呼籲說,台北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史,並且對這個狹下的不義遺址會啟動更積極的保存工作。可是看起來,直到今天,台北市政府還是依舊很消極。這幾天就有文史工作者反映說,屆時期政治受難者墓園,目前草長到可以遮蔽文資,第三墓區甚至都進不去。\n371420\t387939\t所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法\n392113\t415463\t可以請局長回答這個消息我知道我其實那個地點對我來講我也非常清楚有一部電影叫超級大國民還用那個地方來拍它是一個非常非常重要的地方但是因為它的管轄權是在地方我在這裡呼籲我希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情還是回到我原來剛才講的那個理念就是它不是一個\n416403\t421025\t我希望大家不要有這樣的想法大家共同來維護這個值得保存下來的地方讓我們看到一些不能遺忘的歷史就只有這樣子而已好,謝謝部長那也請部長這個積極跟台北市政府要求看有什麼樣的協力作為那另外要請教是說促轉會公告就是說228級白色恐怖不義遺址有\n444833\t465208\t共計42處。那這些不義遺址根據我們現在院版的這個條文42條直接就適用到所謂相關的保存規範可是我們還有一些所謂的潛在的不義遺址那根據院版條文第13條對於這些潛在的不義遺址主管機關是要建立個案資料來優先來審議那現在問題來了法務部也有注意到就這些優先審議又或者審議中這些潛在不義遺址是否\n473834\t500913\t就是說我們要怎麼樣去把它除了優先審議以外怎麼做出比較相關的這個保障才會確保它未來這個會難以保存部長你聽懂我的意思嗎所以這些現在只是說優先審議而已那我的意思說在優先審議之外有沒有更具體的更多的保障目前不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址它已經被破壞殆盡了\n507941\t522875\t我現在除了在審議之外,我們有幾些保護的措施。第一個我們只要是公部門的部分,我們有發文給他們,就是說如果這個有涉及到未來開發行為的話,先通知文化部,我們會協調來看是不是能夠盡量來不要去做一些破壞的這種動作。\n525392\t534316\t最後30秒就是說我的選區新化就是說有一個出生在新化出生的很重要的文學家那大家有什麼能想的楊奎那楊奎先生明年就是他40週年那2026年是他名誕的120週年那我想這個那麼一個值得紀念的年份我們必須要有一些作為\n548741\t554907\t我相當關心楊奎全集的出版。在今天質詢之前,我們團隊有跟文化部相關部會開會過,來追蹤這個進度。我想說要請教是說,不曉得現在這筆經費,因為我知道說我們人文及出版司要撥經費,要協助來出版楊奎全集。\n570803\t587420\t我是想說要追蹤一下說這個經費不曉得什麼時候能如期來播放那以利的這個啟動招標那也要請部長藉由這次的詢答機會是不是向國人來介紹一下就是明後年楊奎全旗的出版跟相關的紀念活動\n589668\t616177\t這筆金幣是透過文學館在編列,然後文化部正在審核當中,但是您講到楊奎正好就是一個最好的例子,他在日治時代的時候就被迫害,被關起來,到了國民政府的時候他再度被迫害,所以他所謂的迫害不是哪一個時代,我覺得他是一個非常好可以拍電影的題材,就可以講到這種所謂的不義的定義是比較開闊一點。\n617597\t619579\t時間已經超過,是不是部長可以事後書面或是當面向林宜瑾委員回覆這個?我最近才剛剛在看楊奎的書。再請文化部協助楊奎全集的出版。謝謝,謝謝部長。好,謝謝林宜瑾委員。\n","txt":"謝主席。有請部長跟文資局陳局長。\n林委員你好部長好今天我們尋討的這個不義遺址保存條例是我們教育委員會來審查但是我們看見在我們教育委員會的委員當中沒有任何一個在野黨的委員來提出相關的提案那其實我是覺得很感慨\n希望這部法案在進入逐條審查前藍白相關的教文委員應該可以提出各自的版本來參與討論。為什麼會這樣提?是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題。我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊。\n我必須強調國民黨的威權統治是不分族群的迫害無論是對原住民或對漢人\n甚至跟著國民黨一起來到台灣的政治移民同樣是在受害範圍內根據國家人權博物館發行的影片外省人的白色恐怖這部影片我們可以知道在政治犯的省級比例上本省級佔55%外省級是佔45%所以外省級裡面軍人被捕的這個比例又是最高\n所以我們身為民意代表我覺得我們一舉一動都具有很大的雙面性一方面我們對民意要有傳達另一方面我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂恰恰相反轉型正義是各族群大團結\n要求國家要來對於這個過去的錯誤做慎重的反省,正視這個過錯,確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。那所以我請要部長說你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法,就是說不義遺址保存條例這樣的性質若能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持跟做積極的討論,更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果。\n所以不曉得部長在正式進入主條討論之前你有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說對於這部條例?\n謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題。剛才我們前面的很多委員也問到一個問題就是說除了在民國34年到後來解元後的那個時間之外的所有原住民或者是清朝或者是在日本人統治台灣對台灣人的壓迫那件事情我全部都承認他的\n加害者跟被害者這些事件我剛才也一再講到我們都拍過非常非常多的電影包括1895年所以都拍成電影但是我們今天審的這個反而是集中在威權統治這段時間因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的從228事件到白色恐怖它是一個很漫長的時間很漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來剛才講到外省人45%的話可是外省人當時的人口是更少的\n對所以它受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派假如我沒有記錯的話人權管的設立不是在我目前執政黨的手上當然對那就表示說在原來人權管的設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題它不是一個藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算鬥爭對方不是所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過\n«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n當年人生的自由與財產剝奪是多麼容易的事。放在現在這個時代,大家言論這麼自由,你要講什麼都可以,你讀什麼書都可以,可是你很難想像在那個年代,你可能只不過是讀一本有點左派的書,你就被逮捕。你說不定說錯一句話,而且那句話也不是這個意思,也被關了十年,是想要讓大家看到那個不合理,你會覺得很荒謬。\n我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算鬥爭,它應該是所有黨派都應該支持它通過。要來面對歷史。對。謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明。那我想我還跟你提到一個就是說台北市政府它現在主管的一個文化警官就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園。長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護。那去年有爆出說受難者家屬\n一片殘存的竹蟲遭破壞之外,剛過世的許家輝議員當時也點出木園的入口跟指標系統不明確,道路毀損,所以它造成的安全疑慮以外,也讓探訪的民眾很可能會破壞木園的景觀。\n當初為嘉賓議員呼籲說,台北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史,並且對這個狹下的不義遺址會啟動更積極的保存工作。可是看起來,直到今天,台北市政府還是依舊很消極。這幾天就有文史工作者反映說,屆時期政治受難者墓園,目前草長到可以遮蔽文資,第三墓區甚至都進不去。\n所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法\n可以請局長回答這個消息我知道我其實那個地點對我來講我也非常清楚有一部電影叫超級大國民還用那個地方來拍它是一個非常非常重要的地方但是因為它的管轄權是在地方我在這裡呼籲我希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情還是回到我原來剛才講的那個理念就是它不是一個\n我希望大家不要有這樣的想法大家共同來維護這個值得保存下來的地方讓我們看到一些不能遺忘的歷史就只有這樣子而已好,謝謝部長那也請部長這個積極跟台北市政府要求看有什麼樣的協力作為那另外要請教是說促轉會公告就是說228級白色恐怖不義遺址有\n共計42處。那這些不義遺址根據我們現在院版的這個條文42條直接就適用到所謂相關的保存規範可是我們還有一些所謂的潛在的不義遺址那根據院版條文第13條對於這些潛在的不義遺址主管機關是要建立個案資料來優先來審議那現在問題來了法務部也有注意到就這些優先審議又或者審議中這些潛在不義遺址是否\n就是說我們要怎麼樣去把它除了優先審議以外怎麼做出比較相關的這個保障才會確保它未來這個會難以保存部長你聽懂我的意思嗎所以這些現在只是說優先審議而已那我的意思說在優先審議之外有沒有更具體的更多的保障目前不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址它已經被破壞殆盡了\n我現在除了在審議之外,我們有幾些保護的措施。第一個我們只要是公部門的部分,我們有發文給他們,就是說如果這個有涉及到未來開發行為的話,先通知文化部,我們會協調來看是不是能夠盡量來不要去做一些破壞的這種動作。\n最後30秒就是說我的選區新化就是說有一個出生在新化出生的很重要的文學家那大家有什麼能想的楊奎那楊奎先生明年就是他40週年那2026年是他名誕的120週年那我想這個那麼一個值得紀念的年份我們必須要有一些作為\n我相當關心楊奎全集的出版。在今天質詢之前,我們團隊有跟文化部相關部會開會過,來追蹤這個進度。我想說要請教是說,不曉得現在這筆經費,因為我知道說我們人文及出版司要撥經費,要協助來出版楊奎全集。\n我是想說要追蹤一下說這個經費不曉得什麼時候能如期來播放那以利的這個啟動招標那也要請部長藉由這次的詢答機會是不是向國人來介紹一下就是明後年楊奎全旗的出版跟相關的紀念活動\n這筆金幣是透過文學館在編列,然後文化部正在審核當中,但是您講到楊奎正好就是一個最好的例子,他在日治時代的時候就被迫害,被關起來,到了國民政府的時候他再度被迫害,所以他所謂的迫害不是哪一個時代,我覺得他是一個非常好可以拍電影的題材,就可以講到這種所謂的不義的定義是比較開闊一點。\n時間已經超過,是不是部長可以事後書面或是當面向林宜瑾委員回覆這個?我最近才剛剛在看楊奎的書。再請文化部協助楊奎全集的出版。謝謝,謝謝部長。好,謝謝林宜瑾委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.979 --> 00:05.402\n謝主席。有請部長跟文資局陳局長。\n\n00:15.356 --> 00:35.137\n林委員你好部長好今天我們尋討的這個不義遺址保存條例是我們教育委員會來審查但是我們看見在我們教育委員會的委員當中沒有任何一個在野黨的委員來提出相關的提案那其實我是覺得很感慨\n\n00:37.199 --> 00:59.829\n希望這部法案在進入逐條審查前藍白相關的教文委員應該可以提出各自的版本來參與討論。為什麼會這樣提?是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題。我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊。\n\n01:01.570 --> 01:02.771\n我必須強調國民黨的威權統治是不分族群的迫害無論是對原住民或對漢人\n\n01:18.607 --> 01:42.132\n甚至跟著國民黨一起來到台灣的政治移民同樣是在受害範圍內根據國家人權博物館發行的影片外省人的白色恐怖這部影片我們可以知道在政治犯的省級比例上本省級佔55%外省級是佔45%所以外省級裡面軍人被捕的這個比例又是最高\n\n01:42.992 --> 02:04.380\n所以我們身為民意代表我覺得我們一舉一動都具有很大的雙面性一方面我們對民意要有傳達另一方面我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂恰恰相反轉型正義是各族群大團結\n\n02:06.161 --> 02:26.586\n要求國家要來對於這個過去的錯誤做慎重的反省,正視這個過錯,確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。那所以我請要部長說你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法,就是說不義遺址保存條例這樣的性質若能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持跟做積極的討論,更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果。\n\n02:30.427 --> 02:38.419\n所以不曉得部長在正式進入主條討論之前你有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說對於這部條例?\n\n02:41.397 --> 03:01.395\n謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題。剛才我們前面的很多委員也問到一個問題就是說除了在民國34年到後來解元後的那個時間之外的所有原住民或者是清朝或者是在日本人統治台灣對台灣人的壓迫那件事情我全部都承認他的\n\n03:02.116 --> 03:31.500\n加害者跟被害者這些事件我剛才也一再講到我們都拍過非常非常多的電影包括1895年所以都拍成電影但是我們今天審的這個反而是集中在威權統治這段時間因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的從228事件到白色恐怖它是一個很漫長的時間很漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來剛才講到外省人45%的話可是外省人當時的人口是更少的\n\n03:32.020 --> 03:58.315\n對所以它受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派假如我沒有記錯的話人權管的設立不是在我目前執政黨的手上當然對那就表示說在原來人權管的設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題它不是一個藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算鬥爭對方不是所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過\n\n03:59.235 --> 04:01.216\n«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n04:28.428 --> 04:55.500\n當年人生的自由與財產剝奪是多麼容易的事。放在現在這個時代,大家言論這麼自由,你要講什麼都可以,你讀什麼書都可以,可是你很難想像在那個年代,你可能只不過是讀一本有點左派的書,你就被逮捕。你說不定說錯一句話,而且那句話也不是這個意思,也被關了十年,是想要讓大家看到那個不合理,你會覺得很荒謬。\n\n04:56.700 --> 05:23.126\n我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算鬥爭,它應該是所有黨派都應該支持它通過。要來面對歷史。對。謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明。那我想我還跟你提到一個就是說台北市政府它現在主管的一個文化警官就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園。長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護。那去年有爆出說受難者家屬\n\n05:25.247 --> 05:40.976\n一片殘存的竹蟲遭破壞之外,剛過世的許家輝議員當時也點出木園的入口跟指標系統不明確,道路毀損,所以它造成的安全疑慮以外,也讓探訪的民眾很可能會破壞木園的景觀。\n\n05:45.819 --> 06:10.820\n當初為嘉賓議員呼籲說,台北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史,並且對這個狹下的不義遺址會啟動更積極的保存工作。可是看起來,直到今天,台北市政府還是依舊很消極。這幾天就有文史工作者反映說,屆時期政治受難者墓園,目前草長到可以遮蔽文資,第三墓區甚至都進不去。\n\n06:11.420 --> 06:27.939\n所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法\n\n06:32.113 --> 06:55.463\n可以請局長回答這個消息我知道我其實那個地點對我來講我也非常清楚有一部電影叫超級大國民還用那個地方來拍它是一個非常非常重要的地方但是因為它的管轄權是在地方我在這裡呼籲我希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情還是回到我原來剛才講的那個理念就是它不是一個\n\n06:56.403 --> 07:01.025\n我希望大家不要有這樣的想法大家共同來維護這個值得保存下來的地方讓我們看到一些不能遺忘的歷史就只有這樣子而已好,謝謝部長那也請部長這個積極跟台北市政府要求看有什麼樣的協力作為那另外要請教是說促轉會公告就是說228級白色恐怖不義遺址有\n\n07:24.833 --> 07:45.208\n共計42處。那這些不義遺址根據我們現在院版的這個條文42條直接就適用到所謂相關的保存規範可是我們還有一些所謂的潛在的不義遺址那根據院版條文第13條對於這些潛在的不義遺址主管機關是要建立個案資料來優先來審議那現在問題來了法務部也有注意到就這些優先審議又或者審議中這些潛在不義遺址是否\n\n07:53.834 --> 08:20.913\n就是說我們要怎麼樣去把它除了優先審議以外怎麼做出比較相關的這個保障才會確保它未來這個會難以保存部長你聽懂我的意思嗎所以這些現在只是說優先審議而已那我的意思說在優先審議之外有沒有更具體的更多的保障目前不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址它已經被破壞殆盡了\n\n08:27.941 --> 08:42.875\n我現在除了在審議之外,我們有幾些保護的措施。第一個我們只要是公部門的部分,我們有發文給他們,就是說如果這個有涉及到未來開發行為的話,先通知文化部,我們會協調來看是不是能夠盡量來不要去做一些破壞的這種動作。\n\n08:45.392 --> 08:54.316\n最後30秒就是說我的選區新化就是說有一個出生在新化出生的很重要的文學家那大家有什麼能想的楊奎那楊奎先生明年就是他40週年那2026年是他名誕的120週年那我想這個那麼一個值得紀念的年份我們必須要有一些作為\n\n09:08.741 --> 09:14.907\n我相當關心楊奎全集的出版。在今天質詢之前,我們團隊有跟文化部相關部會開會過,來追蹤這個進度。我想說要請教是說,不曉得現在這筆經費,因為我知道說我們人文及出版司要撥經費,要協助來出版楊奎全集。\n\n09:30.803 --> 09:47.420\n我是想說要追蹤一下說這個經費不曉得什麼時候能如期來播放那以利的這個啟動招標那也要請部長藉由這次的詢答機會是不是向國人來介紹一下就是明後年楊奎全旗的出版跟相關的紀念活動\n\n09:49.668 --> 10:16.177\n這筆金幣是透過文學館在編列,然後文化部正在審核當中,但是您講到楊奎正好就是一個最好的例子,他在日治時代的時候就被迫害,被關起來,到了國民政府的時候他再度被迫害,所以他所謂的迫害不是哪一個時代,我覺得他是一個非常好可以拍電影的題材,就可以講到這種所謂的不義的定義是比較開闊一點。\n\n10:17.597 --> 10:19.579\n時間已經超過,是不是部長可以事後書面或是當面向林宜瑾委員回覆這個?我最近才剛剛在看楊奎的書。再請文化部協助楊奎全集的出版。謝謝,謝謝部長。好,謝謝林宜瑾委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.979,"end":5.402,"text":"謝主席。有請部長跟文資局陳局長。"},{"start":15.356,"end":35.137,"text":"林委員你好部長好今天我們尋討的這個不義遺址保存條例是我們教育委員會來審查但是我們看見在我們教育委員會的委員當中沒有任何一個在野黨的委員來提出相關的提案那其實我是覺得很感慨"},{"start":37.199,"end":59.829,"text":"希望這部法案在進入逐條審查前藍白相關的教文委員應該可以提出各自的版本來參與討論。為什麼會這樣提?是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題。我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊。"},{"start":61.57,"end":62.771,"text":"我必須強調國民黨的威權統治是不分族群的迫害無論是對原住民或對漢人"},{"start":78.607,"end":102.132,"text":"甚至跟著國民黨一起來到台灣的政治移民同樣是在受害範圍內根據國家人權博物館發行的影片外省人的白色恐怖這部影片我們可以知道在政治犯的省級比例上本省級佔55%外省級是佔45%所以外省級裡面軍人被捕的這個比例又是最高"},{"start":102.992,"end":124.38,"text":"所以我們身為民意代表我覺得我們一舉一動都具有很大的雙面性一方面我們對民意要有傳達另一方面我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂恰恰相反轉型正義是各族群大團結"},{"start":126.161,"end":146.586,"text":"要求國家要來對於這個過去的錯誤做慎重的反省,正視這個過錯,確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。那所以我請要部長說你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法,就是說不義遺址保存條例這樣的性質若能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持跟做積極的討論,更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果。"},{"start":150.427,"end":158.419,"text":"所以不曉得部長在正式進入主條討論之前你有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說對於這部條例?"},{"start":161.397,"end":181.395,"text":"謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題。剛才我們前面的很多委員也問到一個問題就是說除了在民國34年到後來解元後的那個時間之外的所有原住民或者是清朝或者是在日本人統治台灣對台灣人的壓迫那件事情我全部都承認他的"},{"start":182.116,"end":211.5,"text":"加害者跟被害者這些事件我剛才也一再講到我們都拍過非常非常多的電影包括1895年所以都拍成電影但是我們今天審的這個反而是集中在威權統治這段時間因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的從228事件到白色恐怖它是一個很漫長的時間很漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來剛才講到外省人45%的話可是外省人當時的人口是更少的"},{"start":212.02,"end":238.315,"text":"對所以它受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派假如我沒有記錯的話人權管的設立不是在我目前執政黨的手上當然對那就表示說在原來人權管的設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題它不是一個藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算鬥爭對方不是所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過"},{"start":239.235,"end":241.216,"text":" «不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":268.428,"end":295.5,"text":"當年人生的自由與財產剝奪是多麼容易的事。放在現在這個時代,大家言論這麼自由,你要講什麼都可以,你讀什麼書都可以,可是你很難想像在那個年代,你可能只不過是讀一本有點左派的書,你就被逮捕。你說不定說錯一句話,而且那句話也不是這個意思,也被關了十年,是想要讓大家看到那個不合理,你會覺得很荒謬。"},{"start":296.7,"end":323.126,"text":"我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算鬥爭,它應該是所有黨派都應該支持它通過。要來面對歷史。對。謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明。那我想我還跟你提到一個就是說台北市政府它現在主管的一個文化警官就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園。長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護。那去年有爆出說受難者家屬"},{"start":325.247,"end":340.976,"text":"一片殘存的竹蟲遭破壞之外,剛過世的許家輝議員當時也點出木園的入口跟指標系統不明確,道路毀損,所以它造成的安全疑慮以外,也讓探訪的民眾很可能會破壞木園的景觀。"},{"start":345.819,"end":370.82,"text":"當初為嘉賓議員呼籲說,台北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史,並且對這個狹下的不義遺址會啟動更積極的保存工作。可是看起來,直到今天,台北市政府還是依舊很消極。這幾天就有文史工作者反映說,屆時期政治受難者墓園,目前草長到可以遮蔽文資,第三墓區甚至都進不去。"},{"start":371.42,"end":387.939,"text":"所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":392.113,"end":415.463,"text":"可以請局長回答這個消息我知道我其實那個地點對我來講我也非常清楚有一部電影叫超級大國民還用那個地方來拍它是一個非常非常重要的地方但是因為它的管轄權是在地方我在這裡呼籲我希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情還是回到我原來剛才講的那個理念就是它不是一個"},{"start":416.403,"end":421.025,"text":"我希望大家不要有這樣的想法大家共同來維護這個值得保存下來的地方讓我們看到一些不能遺忘的歷史就只有這樣子而已好,謝謝部長那也請部長這個積極跟台北市政府要求看有什麼樣的協力作為那另外要請教是說促轉會公告就是說228級白色恐怖不義遺址有"},{"start":444.833,"end":465.208,"text":"共計42處。那這些不義遺址根據我們現在院版的這個條文42條直接就適用到所謂相關的保存規範可是我們還有一些所謂的潛在的不義遺址那根據院版條文第13條對於這些潛在的不義遺址主管機關是要建立個案資料來優先來審議那現在問題來了法務部也有注意到就這些優先審議又或者審議中這些潛在不義遺址是否"},{"start":473.834,"end":500.913,"text":"就是說我們要怎麼樣去把它除了優先審議以外怎麼做出比較相關的這個保障才會確保它未來這個會難以保存部長你聽懂我的意思嗎所以這些現在只是說優先審議而已那我的意思說在優先審議之外有沒有更具體的更多的保障目前不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址它已經被破壞殆盡了"},{"start":507.941,"end":522.875,"text":"我現在除了在審議之外,我們有幾些保護的措施。第一個我們只要是公部門的部分,我們有發文給他們,就是說如果這個有涉及到未來開發行為的話,先通知文化部,我們會協調來看是不是能夠盡量來不要去做一些破壞的這種動作。"},{"start":525.392,"end":534.316,"text":"最後30秒就是說我的選區新化就是說有一個出生在新化出生的很重要的文學家那大家有什麼能想的楊奎那楊奎先生明年就是他40週年那2026年是他名誕的120週年那我想這個那麼一個值得紀念的年份我們必須要有一些作為"},{"start":548.741,"end":554.907,"text":"我相當關心楊奎全集的出版。在今天質詢之前,我們團隊有跟文化部相關部會開會過,來追蹤這個進度。我想說要請教是說,不曉得現在這筆經費,因為我知道說我們人文及出版司要撥經費,要協助來出版楊奎全集。"},{"start":570.803,"end":587.42,"text":"我是想說要追蹤一下說這個經費不曉得什麼時候能如期來播放那以利的這個啟動招標那也要請部長藉由這次的詢答機會是不是向國人來介紹一下就是明後年楊奎全旗的出版跟相關的紀念活動"},{"start":589.668,"end":616.177,"text":"這筆金幣是透過文學館在編列,然後文化部正在審核當中,但是您講到楊奎正好就是一個最好的例子,他在日治時代的時候就被迫害,被關起來,到了國民政府的時候他再度被迫害,所以他所謂的迫害不是哪一個時代,我覺得他是一個非常好可以拍電影的題材,就可以講到這種所謂的不義的定義是比較開闊一點。"},{"start":617.597,"end":619.579,"text":"時間已經超過,是不是部長可以事後書面或是當面向林宜瑾委員回覆這個?我最近才剛剛在看楊奎的書。再請文化部協助楊奎全集的出版。謝謝,謝謝部長。好,謝謝林宜瑾委員。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時13分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟文資局陳局長。"],["主席：有請部長跟局長。"],["李部長遠：林委員，你好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。今天詢答的不義遺址保存條例草案是由我們教文委員會來審查，但是我們看見在教文委員會的委員當中，沒有任何一個在野黨的委員提出相關的提案，其實我是覺得很感慨，希望在這部法案進入逐條審查前，教文委員會藍白的委員可以提出各自的版本來參與討論，為什麼我會這樣提？是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題，我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊，那跨黨派的民意代表應該要承擔這些共同的責任，同時這也是對歷史跟民主最基本的尊重。所以我必須強調，國民黨的威權統治是不分族群的迫害，無論是對原住民或對漢人，甚至是跟著國民黨一起來到臺灣的政治移民，同樣是在受害範圍內。根據國家人權博物館所發行的「外省人的白色恐怖」這部影片，我們可以知道，在政治犯的省籍比例上，本省籍占55%，外省籍是占45%，在外省籍裡面軍人被捕的比例又是最高。我們身為民意代表，我覺得我們的一舉一動都具有很大的雙面性，一方面，我們對民意要有傳達，另一方面，我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化，所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的，轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂，恰恰相反，轉型正義是各族群大團結，要求國家要對於過去的錯誤做慎重的反省，正視這個過錯，確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。我想請教部長，你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法，就是不義遺址保存條例這樣性質的法案，如果能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持並積極的討論，更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果？請問部長在這個條例正式進入逐條討論之前有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說？"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題，剛才前面有很多委員也問到一個問題，就是除了在民國34年到後來解嚴的那個時間之外，所有對於原住民或者是在清朝、在日本人統治臺灣時對臺灣人的壓迫那些事情，我全部都承認這些事件有加害者跟被害者，我剛才也一再講到，我們都拍過非常非常多的電影，包括「一八九五」，這些都有拍成電影，但是我們今天審的這個法案是集中在威權統治這段時間，因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的，從228事件到白色恐怖，這是一個很漫長的時間，漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來，剛才講到外省人占45%，可是當時外省的人口是更少的，所以受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派，假如我沒有記錯的話，人權館的設立不是在我們目前執政黨的手上。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["李部長遠：那就表示在原來人權館設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題，並不是藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算、鬥爭對方，不是這樣，所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過擺在一個政黨的鬥爭或者是清算，都不是，因為剛剛講到在歷史上只有被害者跟加害者，而且加害者的後代其實也非常的可憐，因為他不知道他的上一代加害別人，他要如何活下去，我認為這是一個非常嚴肅的問題，所以我們把那個地點找到之後，包括羈押、審判、刑求、監禁、處決的這些場所，在找到之後並不是要加重它的恐怖，而是要強調在當年人身自由與財產的剝奪是多麼容易的事，放在現在這個時代，大家言論這麼自由，你要講什麼都可以，你要讀什麼書都可以，可是你很難想像在那個年代，你可能只不過讀一本有點左派的書，你就被逮捕了，你說不定只是說錯一句話，而且那句話也不是這個意思，就因此被關了10年，我們主要是想要讓大家看到那個不合理，你會覺得很荒謬，其實我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算、鬥爭，所以所有黨派都應該支持它通過。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，要來面對歷史。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明，我想再跟你提到一個問題，臺北市政府現在有主管一個文化景觀，就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園，長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護，在去年有爆出受難者家屬發現墓園有一片殘存竹叢遭人破壞，才剛過世的許家蓓議員在當時也點出墓園的入口跟指標系統不明確，而且道路毀損，除了造成安全疑慮以外，也讓探訪的民眾很可能因為不小心而破壞這個墓園的景觀。當初家蓓議員就有呼籲臺北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史，並且對轄下的不義遺址啟動更積極的保存工作，可是看起來直到今天臺北市政府還是依舊很消極，這幾天就有文史工作者反映，戒嚴時期的政治受難者墓園，目前草長到可以遮蔽文資，第三墓區甚至都進不去，所以我要請教文化部，對於這種狀況，有沒有掌握？根據文資法的規定，如果地方的主管機關應作為而不作為，導致文化資產被破壞，中央是不是有權介入改正？面對這樣的狀況，不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法？可以請局長或部長回答。"],["李部長遠：我知道這個消息，那個地點，對我來講，我也非常清楚，有一部電影叫超級大國民，還用那個地方來拍，它是一個非常重要的地方，但它的管轄權在地方，所以我在這裡呼籲，希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情，還是回到我剛才講的那個理念，不是我們中央要做，地方故意不做，因為他會怎樣、怎樣。我希望大家不要有這樣的想法，而是共同來維護值得保存下來的地方，讓我們看到一些不能遺忘的歷史，就只有這樣而已。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長，也請部長積極跟臺北市政府要求，看能有什麼樣的協力作為。","另外請教，促轉會公告228及白色恐怖不義遺址共計有42處，這些不義遺址根據現在院版的條文第四十二條，直接就適用到相關的保存規範，可是還有一些所謂的潛在不義遺址，根據院版條文第十三條，對於這些潛在的不義遺址，主管機關要建立個案資料優先來審議。現在問題來了，法務部也有注意到，這些優先審議又或者審議中的潛在不義遺址，除了優先審議以外，怎麼做出比較相關的保障，才能確保它未來得以保存？部長，你聽得懂我意思嗎？這些潛在遺址現在只是優先審議而已，我的意思是，在優先審議之外，目前有沒有更具體的、更多的保障？不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址，它已經被破壞殆盡了。"],["李部長遠：這部分我是不是請文資局代答？"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["陳局長濟民：第一個就是我們現在除了在審議之外，我們有一些保護的措施，第一、只要是公部門的部分，我們都有發文給他們，如果未來有涉及到開發行為，要先通知文化部，我們會協調是不是能夠儘量不要去破壞。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後，有一個出生在我的選區新化很重要的文學家，即大家耳熟能詳的楊逵，明年就是楊逵先生逝世40週年，2026年是他的冥誕120週年，我想這是那麼一個值得紀念的年份，我們必須要有一些作為。我相當關心楊逵全集的出版，在今天質詢之前，我們團隊也有跟文化部及相關部會開會過來追蹤進度。我想要請教的是經費，因為我知道人文及出版司要撥經費，協助出版楊逵全集，我就想要追蹤一下，這個經費不曉得什麼時候能如期來撥放，以利啟動招標？也要請部長藉由這次詢答的機會，是不是向國人來介紹一下，明後年楊逵全集的出版跟相關的紀念活動？"],["李部長遠：這筆經費是透過文學館在編列……"],["林委員宜瑾：文學館在主責。"],["李部長遠：文化部正在審核當中。但是您講到楊逵，正好就是一個最好的例子，他在日治時代就被迫害、關起來，到了國民政府之後，他再度被迫害，所以所謂的迫害不是哪個時代。我覺得他是一個非常好、可以拍電影的題材，就可以講到這種所謂不義的定義，是比較開闊一點。"],["主席：因為時間已經超過，是不是部長可以事後以書面或者是當面向林宜瑾委員回復？好嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以，沒問題。我最近才剛剛在看楊逵的書。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，再請文化部協助楊逵全集的出版。謝謝，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回。","再來，請吳沛憶委員質詢。吳沛憶委員質詢完之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}