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00:00:40,702\n部長好今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法那其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動那轉型正義其實是在學術當中我們政治學門裡面好新興的一個研究它也是經過各國的比較政府研究因為不是只有台灣要去面對轉型正義的問題轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢是政府對自己的反省\n\n3\n00:00:48,206 --> 00:01:15,055\n在民主轉型的過程之前威權統治時期曾對人民、對人權產生的各種迫害以及後續的移序現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政都必須要代表國家、代表政府來對自身做出反省這是全世界所有後威權\n\n4\n00:01:16,095 --> 00:01:17,737\n擬具〈不義遺址保存條例草案案〉案。\n\n5\n00:01:33,534 --> 00:01:53,859\n原住民遭遇的不公我們不只處理轉型正義我們還要處理的是歷史正義所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會這些通通的不義都要面對都要處理我都支持所以還是回到根本的我們今天在談論的所謂的不義遺址\n\n6\n00:01:58,507 --> 00:02:21,038\n他可能是刑囚的場景他可能是監禁的場景他可能是槍決的場景這背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢?他關乎到了侵害人權關乎到了可能被迫失蹤在你們的條例說明裡面他包含了監控、逮捕、刑囚、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖\n\n7\n00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:38,443\n這些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸應該要讓人民能夠有記憶我自己呢也要非常感謝文化部這幾年尤其我們國家文化記憶庫的努力因為我的外公他是\n\n8\n00:02:53,075 --> 00:03:11,471\n在戰爭以前被國民黨從溫州分發來台灣在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師那從小我聽媽媽說一個故事是外公曾經被關起來關進牢裡一年多的時間\n\n9\n00:03:14,162 --> 00:03:26,130\n那一年我外婆正在懷我媽媽在肚子裡,所以外婆一直要跑到台北,他們住在瑞芳,一直要跑到台北要找蔣經國來陳情。因為他認為外公是冤獄的,外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織。然後我從小看到外公的背上面就有幾條很長的疤痕。\n\n10\n00:03:36,141 --> 00:03:57,948\n我沒有去把它細細了解說到底發生什麼事我只知道在外公身上在外婆身上曾經發生這樣不幸的事件一直是到我們的文化部的國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公我才知道原來他那一年才30歲比我現在還要年輕\n\n11\n00:04:01,249 --> 00:04:19,818\n然後我才知道他是瓜石國小第二批被逮捕入獄的而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘城的校長跟方碩等主任他們被逮捕的那一年同年11月7號就差不多我們現在這個季節就被槍決處刑了\n\n12\n00:04:26,690 --> 00:04:31,358\n所以我想我們對歷史的真相需要不斷地來挖掘。\n\n13\n00:04:33,206 --> 00:04:51,111\n而對於人民的道歉這個不是哪一個政黨的事這個是國家的事不管哪一個政黨來執政都必須要去面對這樣的歷史責任而我非常遺憾的看到上一次上一屆的立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候有國民黨的立委是翻桌\n\n14\n00:05:00,999 --> 00:05:10,068\n這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度所以我在這裡要再次的期盼因為今天我們是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答接下來我們委員會會進行逐條審查我希望不分黨派我們大家\n\n15\n00:05:17,964 --> 00:05:39,978\n都可以來理性的來討論我們未來對於不義遺址將如何作為首先我今天要跟部長提醒的是因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址其中在我的選區中正區因為台北市股宅最多就佔了12處大約十分之一所以我在台北市議會的時候就非常的關注我們究竟該如何來保存這些遺址呢\n\n16\n00:05:40,978 --> 00:06:09,918\n檢察院2018年當然有提出說文化部過去在預算上面每年只編列了230至540萬之間給予地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園、高雄、台南都有我們的補助案我去看了一下啦這些補助案大部分是什麼案?調研案也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段我們需要先調查再研究我們才能夠了解這個不義遺址它究竟過去發生了什麼事而我們未來該如何保存它\n\n17\n00:06:10,938 --> 00:06:30,265\n所以經費剛剛有前面委員說他覺得以後編會編太多了那我是認為這個可能編太少了但是到底是多還是少要怎麼辦你們必須要去定義究竟這些不義遺址未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化他要舉個例子台北市的六張里\n\n18\n00:06:31,903 --> 00:06:52,140\n20162016年的時候市政府文化局就已經文資法登錄了但是呢他的這個委管狀況一直很糟到2019年才有我們地方文史工作者的努力才發現說原來裡面還有我們不知道的案件還有新挖掘的犯件也就是說他的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成再來他現在的現狀最近發生的事情裡面的這個蠶唇竹蟲是一個象徵嘛像異象\n\n19\n00:06:59,326 --> 00:07:08,711\n整個被剷除並且棄置那臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事所以你看就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都全責不清再來我再舉另外一個例子我們臺北市也有臺北臺灣新文化運動紀念館這個裡面代表性人物大家知道嗎蔣渭水、黎憲堂還紀念新文化運動但是這個場所\n\n20\n00:07:25,987 --> 00:07:33,105\n其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方這個場所過去是什麼是警總的拘留所\n\n21\n00:07:34,594 --> 00:07:37,276\n所以你進去這個經驗館裡面你其實你看不到這個地方雖然它是不義遺址但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型爭議的歷史所以我們現在有條例了我們有法源依據未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化我認為文化部必須要很負起責任除了立法以外我建議部長我們是來訂定一個指引\n\n22\n00:08:01,031 --> 00:08:04,172\n包括whatkindofbasicresearchandinvestigationyoushoulddo.\n\n23\n00:08:04,172 --> 00:08:18,357\n那未來在活化裡面是不是有幾種的類型。我們可以先來提供一個指引。讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督啊。讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案說現在已經有法源依據了。那我們希望未來我們如何來對待這些不義遺址。目的是什麼?目的是我們希望\n\n24\n00:08:24,719 --> 00:08:32,466\n他不一定要重建,他也許只是遺構,但他其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長有沒有辦法來定性指引?好,我們來試試看,因為這個我覺得這個條例我希望在立法院\n\n25\n00:08:40,475 --> 00:08:40,775\n檢查委員范雲等19人擬具\n\n26\n00:09:00,322 --> 00:09:19,660\n現在已經完成了有四處我們的不義遺址像你的金美、綠島、金面園區、國防部的臺灣居然監獄然後調查局安康接待室這四處都已經有數位的虛擬重建但是針對我剛剛講的已經沒有一個的不義遺址其實如果你有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話現在的技術AI也是\n\n27\n00:09:23,163 --> 00:09:30,435\n有可能可以進行虛擬重建的所以我希望這個也一起來評估那我們在進主條審之前我們來做一個討論好不好好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t389\t五位委員你好\n17386\t40702\t部長好今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法那其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動那轉型正義其實是在學術當中我們政治學門裡面好新興的一個研究它也是經過各國的比較政府研究因為不是只有台灣要去面對轉型正義的問題轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢是政府對自己的反省\n48206\t75055\t在民主轉型的過程之前威權統治時期曾對人民、對人權產生的各種迫害以及後續的移序現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政都必須要代表國家、代表政府來對自身做出反省這是全世界所有後威權\n76095\t77737\t擬具〈不義遺址保存條例草案案〉案。\n93534\t113859\t原住民遭遇的不公我們不只處理轉型正義我們還要處理的是歷史正義所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會這些通通的不義都要面對都要處理我都支持所以還是回到根本的我們今天在談論的所謂的不義遺址\n118507\t141038\t他可能是刑囚的場景他可能是監禁的場景他可能是槍決的場景這背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢?他關乎到了侵害人權關乎到了可能被迫失蹤在你們的條例說明裡面他包含了監控、逮捕、刑囚、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖\n146080\t158443\t這些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸應該要讓人民能夠有記憶我自己呢也要非常感謝文化部這幾年尤其我們國家文化記憶庫的努力因為我的外公他是\n173075\t191471\t在戰爭以前被國民黨從溫州分發來台灣在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師那從小我聽媽媽說一個故事是外公曾經被關起來關進牢裡一年多的時間\n194162\t206130\t那一年我外婆正在懷我媽媽在肚子裡,所以外婆一直要跑到台北,他們住在瑞芳,一直要跑到台北要找蔣經國來陳情。因為他認為外公是冤獄的,外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織。然後我從小看到外公的背上面就有幾條很長的疤痕。\n216141\t237948\t我沒有去把它細細了解說到底發生什麼事我只知道在外公身上在外婆身上曾經發生這樣不幸的事件一直是到我們的文化部的國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公我才知道原來他那一年才30歲比我現在還要年輕\n241249\t259818\t然後我才知道他是瓜石國小第二批被逮捕入獄的而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘城的校長跟方碩等主任他們被逮捕的那一年同年11月7號就差不多我們現在這個季節就被槍決處刑了\n266690\t271358\t所以我想我們對歷史的真相需要不斷地來挖掘。\n273206\t291111\t而對於人民的道歉這個不是哪一個政黨的事這個是國家的事不管哪一個政黨來執政都必須要去面對這樣的歷史責任而我非常遺憾的看到上一次上一屆的立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候有國民黨的立委是翻桌\n300999\t310068\t這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度所以我在這裡要再次的期盼因為今天我們是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答接下來我們委員會會進行逐條審查我希望不分黨派我們大家\n317964\t339978\t都可以來理性的來討論我們未來對於不義遺址將如何作為首先我今天要跟部長提醒的是因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址其中在我的選區中正區因為台北市股宅最多就佔了12處大約十分之一所以我在台北市議會的時候就非常的關注我們究竟該如何來保存這些遺址呢\n340978\t369918\t檢察院2018年當然有提出說文化部過去在預算上面每年只編列了230至540萬之間給予地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園、高雄、台南都有我們的補助案我去看了一下啦這些補助案大部分是什麼案?調研案也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段我們需要先調查再研究我們才能夠了解這個不義遺址它究竟過去發生了什麼事而我們未來該如何保存它\n370938\t390265\t所以經費剛剛有前面委員說他覺得以後編會編太多了那我是認為這個可能編太少了但是到底是多還是少要怎麼辦你們必須要去定義究竟這些不義遺址未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化他要舉個例子台北市的六張里\n391903\t412140\t2016 2016年的時候市政府文化局就已經文資法登錄了但是呢他的這個委管狀況一直很糟到2019年才有我們地方文史工作者的努力才發現說原來裡面還有我們不知道的案件還有新挖掘的犯件也就是說他的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成再來他現在的現狀最近發生的事情裡面的這個蠶唇竹蟲是一個象徵嘛像異象\n419326\t428711\t整個被剷除並且棄置那臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事所以你看就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都全責不清再來我再舉另外一個例子我們臺北市也有臺北臺灣新文化運動紀念館這個裡面代表性人物大家知道嗎蔣渭水、黎憲堂還紀念新文化運動但是這個場所\n445987\t453105\t其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方這個場所過去是什麼是警總的拘留所\n454594\t457276\t所以你進去這個經驗館裡面你其實你看不到這個地方雖然它是不義遺址但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型爭議的歷史所以我們現在有條例了我們有法源依據未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化我認為文化部必須要很負起責任除了立法以外我建議部長我們是來訂定一個指引\n481031\t484172\t包括 what kind of basic research and investigation you should do.\n484172\t498357\t那未來在活化裡面是不是有幾種的類型。我們可以先來提供一個指引。讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督啊。讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案說現在已經有法源依據了。那我們希望未來我們如何來對待這些不義遺址。目的是什麼?目的是我們希望\n504719\t512466\t他不一定要重建,他也許只是遺構,但他其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長有沒有辦法來定性指引?好,我們來試試看,因為這個我覺得這個條例我希望在立法院\n520475\t520775\t檢查委員范雲等19人擬具\n540322\t559660\t現在已經完成了有四處我們的不義遺址像你的金美、綠島、金面園區、國防部的臺灣居然監獄然後調查局安康接待室這四處都已經有數位的虛擬重建但是針對我剛剛講的已經沒有一個的不義遺址其實如果你有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話現在的技術AI也是\n563163\t570435\t有可能可以進行虛擬重建的所以我希望這個也一起來評估那我們在進主條審之前我們來做一個討論好不好好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員\n","txt":"五位委員你好\n部長好今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法那其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動那轉型正義其實是在學術當中我們政治學門裡面好新興的一個研究它也是經過各國的比較政府研究因為不是只有台灣要去面對轉型正義的問題轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢是政府對自己的反省\n在民主轉型的過程之前威權統治時期曾對人民、對人權產生的各種迫害以及後續的移序現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政都必須要代表國家、代表政府來對自身做出反省這是全世界所有後威權\n擬具〈不義遺址保存條例草案案〉案。\n原住民遭遇的不公我們不只處理轉型正義我們還要處理的是歷史正義所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會這些通通的不義都要面對都要處理我都支持所以還是回到根本的我們今天在談論的所謂的不義遺址\n他可能是刑囚的場景他可能是監禁的場景他可能是槍決的場景這背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢?他關乎到了侵害人權關乎到了可能被迫失蹤在你們的條例說明裡面他包含了監控、逮捕、刑囚、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖\n這些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸應該要讓人民能夠有記憶我自己呢也要非常感謝文化部這幾年尤其我們國家文化記憶庫的努力因為我的外公他是\n在戰爭以前被國民黨從溫州分發來台灣在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師那從小我聽媽媽說一個故事是外公曾經被關起來關進牢裡一年多的時間\n那一年我外婆正在懷我媽媽在肚子裡,所以外婆一直要跑到台北,他們住在瑞芳,一直要跑到台北要找蔣經國來陳情。因為他認為外公是冤獄的,外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織。然後我從小看到外公的背上面就有幾條很長的疤痕。\n我沒有去把它細細了解說到底發生什麼事我只知道在外公身上在外婆身上曾經發生這樣不幸的事件一直是到我們的文化部的國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公我才知道原來他那一年才30歲比我現在還要年輕\n然後我才知道他是瓜石國小第二批被逮捕入獄的而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘城的校長跟方碩等主任他們被逮捕的那一年同年11月7號就差不多我們現在這個季節就被槍決處刑了\n所以我想我們對歷史的真相需要不斷地來挖掘。\n而對於人民的道歉這個不是哪一個政黨的事這個是國家的事不管哪一個政黨來執政都必須要去面對這樣的歷史責任而我非常遺憾的看到上一次上一屆的立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候有國民黨的立委是翻桌\n這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度所以我在這裡要再次的期盼因為今天我們是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答接下來我們委員會會進行逐條審查我希望不分黨派我們大家\n都可以來理性的來討論我們未來對於不義遺址將如何作為首先我今天要跟部長提醒的是因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址其中在我的選區中正區因為台北市股宅最多就佔了12處大約十分之一所以我在台北市議會的時候就非常的關注我們究竟該如何來保存這些遺址呢\n檢察院2018年當然有提出說文化部過去在預算上面每年只編列了230至540萬之間給予地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園、高雄、台南都有我們的補助案我去看了一下啦這些補助案大部分是什麼案?調研案也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段我們需要先調查再研究我們才能夠了解這個不義遺址它究竟過去發生了什麼事而我們未來該如何保存它\n所以經費剛剛有前面委員說他覺得以後編會編太多了那我是認為這個可能編太少了但是到底是多還是少要怎麼辦你們必須要去定義究竟這些不義遺址未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化他要舉個例子台北市的六張里\n2016 2016年的時候市政府文化局就已經文資法登錄了但是呢他的這個委管狀況一直很糟到2019年才有我們地方文史工作者的努力才發現說原來裡面還有我們不知道的案件還有新挖掘的犯件也就是說他的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成再來他現在的現狀最近發生的事情裡面的這個蠶唇竹蟲是一個象徵嘛像異象\n整個被剷除並且棄置那臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事所以你看就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都全責不清再來我再舉另外一個例子我們臺北市也有臺北臺灣新文化運動紀念館這個裡面代表性人物大家知道嗎蔣渭水、黎憲堂還紀念新文化運動但是這個場所\n其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方這個場所過去是什麼是警總的拘留所\n所以你進去這個經驗館裡面你其實你看不到這個地方雖然它是不義遺址但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型爭議的歷史所以我們現在有條例了我們有法源依據未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化我認為文化部必須要很負起責任除了立法以外我建議部長我們是來訂定一個指引\n包括 what kind of basic research and investigation you should do.\n那未來在活化裡面是不是有幾種的類型。我們可以先來提供一個指引。讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督啊。讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案說現在已經有法源依據了。那我們希望未來我們如何來對待這些不義遺址。目的是什麼?目的是我們希望\n他不一定要重建,他也許只是遺構,但他其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長有沒有辦法來定性指引?好,我們來試試看,因為這個我覺得這個條例我希望在立法院\n檢查委員范雲等19人擬具\n現在已經完成了有四處我們的不義遺址像你的金美、綠島、金面園區、國防部的臺灣居然監獄然後調查局安康接待室這四處都已經有數位的虛擬重建但是針對我剛剛講的已經沒有一個的不義遺址其實如果你有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話現在的技術AI也是\n有可能可以進行虛擬重建的所以我希望這個也一起來評估那我們在進主條審之前我們來做一個討論好不好好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:00.389\n五位委員你好\n\n00:17.386 --> 00:40.702\n部長好今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法那其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動那轉型正義其實是在學術當中我們政治學門裡面好新興的一個研究它也是經過各國的比較政府研究因為不是只有台灣要去面對轉型正義的問題轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢是政府對自己的反省\n\n00:48.206 --> 01:15.055\n在民主轉型的過程之前威權統治時期曾對人民、對人權產生的各種迫害以及後續的移序現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政都必須要代表國家、代表政府來對自身做出反省這是全世界所有後威權\n\n01:16.095 --> 01:17.737\n擬具〈不義遺址保存條例草案案〉案。\n\n01:33.534 --> 01:53.859\n原住民遭遇的不公我們不只處理轉型正義我們還要處理的是歷史正義所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會這些通通的不義都要面對都要處理我都支持所以還是回到根本的我們今天在談論的所謂的不義遺址\n\n01:58.507 --> 02:21.038\n他可能是刑囚的場景他可能是監禁的場景他可能是槍決的場景這背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢?他關乎到了侵害人權關乎到了可能被迫失蹤在你們的條例說明裡面他包含了監控、逮捕、刑囚、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖\n\n02:26.080 --> 02:38.443\n這些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸應該要讓人民能夠有記憶我自己呢也要非常感謝文化部這幾年尤其我們國家文化記憶庫的努力因為我的外公他是\n\n02:53.075 --> 03:11.471\n在戰爭以前被國民黨從溫州分發來台灣在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師那從小我聽媽媽說一個故事是外公曾經被關起來關進牢裡一年多的時間\n\n03:14.162 --> 03:26.130\n那一年我外婆正在懷我媽媽在肚子裡,所以外婆一直要跑到台北,他們住在瑞芳,一直要跑到台北要找蔣經國來陳情。因為他認為外公是冤獄的,外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織。然後我從小看到外公的背上面就有幾條很長的疤痕。\n\n03:36.141 --> 03:57.948\n我沒有去把它細細了解說到底發生什麼事我只知道在外公身上在外婆身上曾經發生這樣不幸的事件一直是到我們的文化部的國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公我才知道原來他那一年才30歲比我現在還要年輕\n\n04:01.249 --> 04:19.818\n然後我才知道他是瓜石國小第二批被逮捕入獄的而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘城的校長跟方碩等主任他們被逮捕的那一年同年11月7號就差不多我們現在這個季節就被槍決處刑了\n\n04:26.690 --> 04:31.358\n所以我想我們對歷史的真相需要不斷地來挖掘。\n\n04:33.206 --> 04:51.111\n而對於人民的道歉這個不是哪一個政黨的事這個是國家的事不管哪一個政黨來執政都必須要去面對這樣的歷史責任而我非常遺憾的看到上一次上一屆的立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候有國民黨的立委是翻桌\n\n05:00.999 --> 05:10.068\n這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度所以我在這裡要再次的期盼因為今天我們是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答接下來我們委員會會進行逐條審查我希望不分黨派我們大家\n\n05:17.964 --> 05:39.978\n都可以來理性的來討論我們未來對於不義遺址將如何作為首先我今天要跟部長提醒的是因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址其中在我的選區中正區因為台北市股宅最多就佔了12處大約十分之一所以我在台北市議會的時候就非常的關注我們究竟該如何來保存這些遺址呢\n\n05:40.978 --> 06:09.918\n檢察院2018年當然有提出說文化部過去在預算上面每年只編列了230至540萬之間給予地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園、高雄、台南都有我們的補助案我去看了一下啦這些補助案大部分是什麼案?調研案也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段我們需要先調查再研究我們才能夠了解這個不義遺址它究竟過去發生了什麼事而我們未來該如何保存它\n\n06:10.938 --> 06:30.265\n所以經費剛剛有前面委員說他覺得以後編會編太多了那我是認為這個可能編太少了但是到底是多還是少要怎麼辦你們必須要去定義究竟這些不義遺址未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化他要舉個例子台北市的六張里\n\n06:31.903 --> 06:52.140\n20162016年的時候市政府文化局就已經文資法登錄了但是呢他的這個委管狀況一直很糟到2019年才有我們地方文史工作者的努力才發現說原來裡面還有我們不知道的案件還有新挖掘的犯件也就是說他的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成再來他現在的現狀最近發生的事情裡面的這個蠶唇竹蟲是一個象徵嘛像異象\n\n06:59.326 --> 07:08.711\n整個被剷除並且棄置那臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事所以你看就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都全責不清再來我再舉另外一個例子我們臺北市也有臺北臺灣新文化運動紀念館這個裡面代表性人物大家知道嗎蔣渭水、黎憲堂還紀念新文化運動但是這個場所\n\n07:25.987 --> 07:33.105\n其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方這個場所過去是什麼是警總的拘留所\n\n07:34.594 --> 07:37.276\n所以你進去這個經驗館裡面你其實你看不到這個地方雖然它是不義遺址但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型爭議的歷史所以我們現在有條例了我們有法源依據未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化我認為文化部必須要很負起責任除了立法以外我建議部長我們是來訂定一個指引\n\n08:01.031 --> 08:04.172\n包括whatkindofbasicresearchandinvestigationyoushoulddo.\n\n08:04.172 --> 08:18.357\n那未來在活化裡面是不是有幾種的類型。我們可以先來提供一個指引。讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督啊。讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案說現在已經有法源依據了。那我們希望未來我們如何來對待這些不義遺址。目的是什麼?目的是我們希望\n\n08:24.719 --> 08:32.466\n他不一定要重建,他也許只是遺構,但他其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長有沒有辦法來定性指引?好,我們來試試看,因為這個我覺得這個條例我希望在立法院\n\n08:40.475 --> 08:40.775\n檢查委員范雲等19人擬具\n\n09:00.322 --> 09:19.660\n現在已經完成了有四處我們的不義遺址像你的金美、綠島、金面園區、國防部的臺灣居然監獄然後調查局安康接待室這四處都已經有數位的虛擬重建但是針對我剛剛講的已經沒有一個的不義遺址其實如果你有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話現在的技術AI也是\n\n09:23.163 --> 09:30.435\n有可能可以進行虛擬重建的所以我希望這個也一起來評估那我們在進主條審之前我們來做一個討論好不好好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.389,"text":"五位委員你好"},{"start":17.386,"end":40.702,"text":"部長好今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法那其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動那轉型正義其實是在學術當中我們政治學門裡面好新興的一個研究它也是經過各國的比較政府研究因為不是只有台灣要去面對轉型正義的問題轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢是政府對自己的反省"},{"start":48.206,"end":75.055,"text":"在民主轉型的過程之前威權統治時期曾對人民、對人權產生的各種迫害以及後續的移序現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政都必須要代表國家、代表政府來對自身做出反省這是全世界所有後威權"},{"start":76.095,"end":77.737,"text":"擬具〈不義遺址保存條例草案案〉案。"},{"start":93.534,"end":113.859,"text":"原住民遭遇的不公我們不只處理轉型正義我們還要處理的是歷史正義所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會這些通通的不義都要面對都要處理我都支持所以還是回到根本的我們今天在談論的所謂的不義遺址"},{"start":118.507,"end":141.038,"text":"他可能是刑囚的場景他可能是監禁的場景他可能是槍決的場景這背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢?他關乎到了侵害人權關乎到了可能被迫失蹤在你們的條例說明裡面他包含了監控、逮捕、刑囚、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖"},{"start":146.08,"end":158.443,"text":"這些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸應該要讓人民能夠有記憶我自己呢也要非常感謝文化部這幾年尤其我們國家文化記憶庫的努力因為我的外公他是"},{"start":173.075,"end":191.471,"text":"在戰爭以前被國民黨從溫州分發來台灣在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師那從小我聽媽媽說一個故事是外公曾經被關起來關進牢裡一年多的時間"},{"start":194.162,"end":206.13,"text":"那一年我外婆正在懷我媽媽在肚子裡,所以外婆一直要跑到台北,他們住在瑞芳,一直要跑到台北要找蔣經國來陳情。因為他認為外公是冤獄的,外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織。然後我從小看到外公的背上面就有幾條很長的疤痕。"},{"start":216.141,"end":237.948,"text":"我沒有去把它細細了解說到底發生什麼事我只知道在外公身上在外婆身上曾經發生這樣不幸的事件一直是到我們的文化部的國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公我才知道原來他那一年才30歲比我現在還要年輕"},{"start":241.249,"end":259.818,"text":"然後我才知道他是瓜石國小第二批被逮捕入獄的而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘城的校長跟方碩等主任他們被逮捕的那一年同年11月7號就差不多我們現在這個季節就被槍決處刑了"},{"start":266.69,"end":271.358,"text":"所以我想我們對歷史的真相需要不斷地來挖掘。"},{"start":273.206,"end":291.111,"text":"而對於人民的道歉這個不是哪一個政黨的事這個是國家的事不管哪一個政黨來執政都必須要去面對這樣的歷史責任而我非常遺憾的看到上一次上一屆的立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候有國民黨的立委是翻桌"},{"start":300.999,"end":310.068,"text":"這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度所以我在這裡要再次的期盼因為今天我們是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答接下來我們委員會會進行逐條審查我希望不分黨派我們大家"},{"start":317.964,"end":339.978,"text":"都可以來理性的來討論我們未來對於不義遺址將如何作為首先我今天要跟部長提醒的是因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址其中在我的選區中正區因為台北市股宅最多就佔了12處大約十分之一所以我在台北市議會的時候就非常的關注我們究竟該如何來保存這些遺址呢"},{"start":340.978,"end":369.918,"text":"檢察院2018年當然有提出說文化部過去在預算上面每年只編列了230至540萬之間給予地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園、高雄、台南都有我們的補助案我去看了一下啦這些補助案大部分是什麼案?調研案也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段我們需要先調查再研究我們才能夠了解這個不義遺址它究竟過去發生了什麼事而我們未來該如何保存它"},{"start":370.938,"end":390.265,"text":"所以經費剛剛有前面委員說他覺得以後編會編太多了那我是認為這個可能編太少了但是到底是多還是少要怎麼辦你們必須要去定義究竟這些不義遺址未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化他要舉個例子台北市的六張里"},{"start":391.903,"end":412.14,"text":"2016 2016年的時候市政府文化局就已經文資法登錄了但是呢他的這個委管狀況一直很糟到2019年才有我們地方文史工作者的努力才發現說原來裡面還有我們不知道的案件還有新挖掘的犯件也就是說他的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成再來他現在的現狀最近發生的事情裡面的這個蠶唇竹蟲是一個象徵嘛像異象"},{"start":419.326,"end":428.711,"text":"整個被剷除並且棄置那臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事所以你看就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都全責不清再來我再舉另外一個例子我們臺北市也有臺北臺灣新文化運動紀念館這個裡面代表性人物大家知道嗎蔣渭水、黎憲堂還紀念新文化運動但是這個場所"},{"start":445.987,"end":453.105,"text":"其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方這個場所過去是什麼是警總的拘留所"},{"start":454.594,"end":457.276,"text":"所以你進去這個經驗館裡面你其實你看不到這個地方雖然它是不義遺址但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型爭議的歷史所以我們現在有條例了我們有法源依據未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化我認為文化部必須要很負起責任除了立法以外我建議部長我們是來訂定一個指引"},{"start":481.031,"end":484.172,"text":"包括 what kind of basic research and investigation you should do."},{"start":484.172,"end":498.357,"text":"那未來在活化裡面是不是有幾種的類型。我們可以先來提供一個指引。讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督啊。讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案說現在已經有法源依據了。那我們希望未來我們如何來對待這些不義遺址。目的是什麼?目的是我們希望"},{"start":504.719,"end":512.466,"text":"他不一定要重建,他也許只是遺構,但他其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長有沒有辦法來定性指引?好,我們來試試看,因為這個我覺得這個條例我希望在立法院"},{"start":520.475,"end":520.775,"text":"檢查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":540.322,"end":559.66,"text":"現在已經完成了有四處我們的不義遺址像你的金美、綠島、金面園區、國防部的臺灣居然監獄然後調查局安康接待室這四處都已經有數位的虛擬重建但是針對我剛剛講的已經沒有一個的不義遺址其實如果你有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話現在的技術AI也是"},{"start":563.163,"end":570.435,"text":"有可能可以進行虛擬重建的所以我希望這個也一起來評估那我們在進主條審之前我們來做一個討論好不好好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時24分）謝謝主席。我請李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員，你好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法，其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動，轉型正義是在學術當中、政治學門裡面的新興研究，它也是經過各國的比較政府研究，因為不是只有臺灣要面對轉型正義的問題。轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢？是政府對自己的反省，在民主轉型過程之前的威權統治時期，曾對人民、對人權產生的各種破壞以及後續的遺緒。現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政，都必須要代表國家、代表政府，對自身做出反省，這是全世界所有後威權進入到民主過程當中的國家，都要面對的轉型正義。日本時期在臺灣有沒有發生迫害？有，所以二戰結束的時候，當時依照國際法進行審判，成立了遠東國際軍事法庭，原住民遭遇的不公，我們不只處理轉型正義，還要處理的是歷史正義，所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會，這些不義通通都要面對、都要處理，我都支持。","還是回到根本的，我們今天在談論所謂的不義遺址，可能是刑求的場景，可能是監禁的場景，可能是槍決的場景，背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢？它關乎到了侵害人權，關乎到了可能被迫失蹤，在你們的條例說明裡面，包含了監控、逮捕、刑求、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖。這一些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道，這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸，應該要讓人民能夠有記憶。","我自己也要非常感謝文化部這幾年的努力，尤其是國家文化記憶庫，因為我的外公是在戰爭以前，被國民黨從溫州分發來臺灣，在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師。從小我聽媽媽說一個故事，外公曾經被關起來，關進牢裡大概一年多的時間，那一年我外婆肚子裡正懷著我媽媽，我外婆他們住在瑞芳，一直要跑到臺北找蔣經國陳情，因為他認為外公是冤獄，外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織，我從小看到外公的背上有幾條很長的疤痕，我沒有細細了解到底發生什麼事，只知道在外公身上、在外婆身上，曾經發生這樣不幸的事件，一直到文化部國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來，這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公，我才知道原來他那一年才30歲，比我現在還要年輕，然後我才知道他是瓜山國小第二批被逮捕入獄的，而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘承德校長跟方碩德主任，他們被逮捕的那一年、同年11月7號，差不多現在這個季節就被槍決、處刑了。","我們對歷史的真相需要不斷的來挖掘，而對於人民的道歉，這不是哪一個政黨的事，而是國家的事，不管哪一個政黨來執政，都必須要面對這樣的歷史責任。我非常遺憾的看到，上一屆立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候，有國民黨的立委翻桌，這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度，所以我在這裡再次期盼，因為今天是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答，接下來委員會會進行逐條審查。我希望不分黨派，大家都可以理性的來討論，我們未來對不義遺址將如何作為。","首先，我今天要跟部長提醒的是，因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址，臺北市古宅最多，其中在我的選區中正區就占了12處，大約十分之一，所以我在臺北市議會的時候就非常關注，我們究竟該如何保存這些遺址呢？監察院2018年有提出說文化部過去在預算上面，每年只編列了230萬至540萬之間給予地方政府，包括臺北、新北、桃園、高雄、臺南都有我們的補助案，我去看了一下，這些補助案大部分是什麼案？調研案，也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段，需要先調查再研究才能夠了解這個不義遺址過去究竟發生了什麼事，而我們未來該如何保存它。所以關於經費，剛剛前面有委員說，他覺得以後會不會編太多了，我是認為可能編太少，但到底是多還是少，要怎麼辦？你們必須要去定義，究竟這些不義遺址，未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化它。","我舉一個例子，臺北市的六張犁受難者墓園在2016年時，市政府文化局就已經以文資法登錄了，但是它的維管狀況一直很糟，到2019年由我們地方文史工作者的努力，才發現原來裡面還有我們不知道及新挖掘的案件，也就是說它的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成。再來，它現在的現狀，是最近發生的事情，裡面的「殘存竹叢」是一個象徵意象，整個被鏟除並且棄置，臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事，市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事，所以你看，就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都權責不清。","再來，我再舉另外一個例子，我們臺北市也有臺灣新文化運動紀念館，裡面代表性人物，大家知道嘛！蔣渭水、林獻堂來紀念新文化運動，但是這個場所其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方，這個場所過去是什麼？是警總的居留所，所以你進去這個紀念館裡面，這個地方雖然是不義遺址，但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型正義的歷史，所以我們現在有條例、有法源依據，未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化，我認為文化部必須要很負起責任，除了立法以外，我建議部長，我們是不是來訂定一個指引？包括你應該要做怎樣的基礎研究調查，未來在活化方式是不是有幾種類型，我們可以先來提供一個指引，讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督，讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案，瞭解現在已經有法源依據了，我們希望未來要如何來對待這些不義遺址，目的是什麼？目的是我們希望它不一定要重建，它也許只是遺構，但它其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長，有沒有辦法來訂定指引？"],["李部長遠：好，我們來試試看，因為我希望這個條例在立法院趕快通過，之後給我們一些法源，目前我們能做的部分針對能不能列指引，我們去研究一下。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我希望在逐條審查之前，你就給我一個初步的討論，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：另外，我要提醒的是，我們國家人權館也有在做數位科技保存，現在已經完成的有4處不義遺址，像景美、綠島紀念園區、國防部的臺灣軍人監獄、調查局安康接待室這4處都已經有數位的虛擬重建，但是針對我剛剛講的，已經沒有遺構的不義遺址如果有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話，以現在的技術、AI也是有可能可以進行虛擬重建，所以我希望這部分也一起來評估，我們在進逐條審之前來做一個討論，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢，部長請回。我們休息5分鐘，之後請萬美玲委員質詢。","休息（10時34分）","繼續開會（10時41分）"],["主席：我們繼續質詢。現在請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}