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\"text\": \"我們在用exco的時候\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 678.248, \"end\": 678.589, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 678.589, \"end\": 678.709, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 678.709, \"end\": 678.809, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 678.809, \"end\": 678.869, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"x\", \"start\": 678.869, \"end\": 678.989, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"c\", \"start\": 678.989, \"end\": 679.089, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 679.089, \"end\": 679.229, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 679.229, \"end\": 679.51, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 679.51, \"end\": 679.53, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 699.832, \"end\": 727.896, \"text\": \"綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"綠\"}, 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比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 728.636, \"end\": 728.796, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 728.796, \"end\": 728.936, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 728.936, \"end\": 729.096, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 729.096, \"end\": 729.597, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 729.597, \"end\": 729.917, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 729.917, \"end\": 730.037, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 730.037, \"end\": 730.517, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 730.517, \"end\": 730.637, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"陽\", \"start\": 730.637, \"end\": 730.697, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 730.697, \"end\": 730.877, \"score\": 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774.054, \"end\": 774.174, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 774.174, \"end\": 774.654, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 774.654, \"end\": 775.154, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 775.154, \"end\": 775.254, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 775.254, \"end\": 775.274, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,223 --> 00:00:16,281\n鄭正鈐委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長跟沈長赤還有沈長赤\n\n2\n00:00:22,765 --> 00:00:44,460\n委員長現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟\n\n3\n00:00:45,641 --> 00:00:59,955\n經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號\n\n4\n00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:21,426\n才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題\n\n5\n00:01:23,046 --> 00:01:43,982\n那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說台灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有一些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應\n\n6\n00:01:47,725 --> 00:02:01,582\n這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來\n\n7\n00:02:03,324 --> 00:02:31,938\n明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位\n\n8\n00:02:33,178 --> 00:02:38,621\n那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背的表示你的中文底子其實挺好的\n\n9\n00:02:59,514 --> 00:03:15,632\n但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為\n\n10\n00:03:16,152 --> 00:03:41,174\n重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以他的執行力其實很關鍵那我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態\n\n11\n00:03:43,459 --> 00:04:06,498\n我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題\n\n12\n00:04:07,839 --> 00:04:32,706\n而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決．或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決．因為他們都是我們的國民．國民所產生的問題我們就是要共同來解決理解齁那部長那因為那個我想針對省次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對\n\n13\n00:04:33,686 --> 00:04:34,647\n可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:53,176 --> 00:05:10,117\n對,謝謝委員藉這個機會我再說明一下,排放標準的部分,比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是耐耗性的部分,歐盟有的標準我們都跟他一樣,甚至比他略嚴格,歐盟沒有的標準我們...那我問一下,我們的力狀污染物的排放標準是多少,台灣目前?\n\n15\n00:05:10,678 --> 00:05:36,877\n跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎\n\n16\n00:05:38,358 --> 00:06:05,600\n就是因為發電量不同的時候會有不同的標準嘛那我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做一個溝通不要造成民眾的一個困擾跟反彈好不好那針對這部分的時候我想說先到這邊我想接下來我想問的一個事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源嘛所以很多人也都強調綠電的部分那國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到\n\n17\n00:06:07,121 --> 00:06:18,626\n希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少部長你知道嗎我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下\n\n18\n00:06:19,488 --> 00:06:44,599\n報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前瞻基礎建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字\n\n19\n00:06:49,602 --> 00:06:59,454\n我們儲能的話,我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個儲能的這個市場\n\n20\n00:07:09,184 --> 00:07:33,871\n能夠得到更大的這個...理解喔那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下齁如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會期到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙啦齁那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些\n\n21\n00:07:35,953 --> 00:07:42,608\n與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的\n\n22\n00:07:45,795 --> 00:08:03,239\n農量是1.3Giga但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1Giga所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退場潮\n\n23\n00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:30,288\n很多人看出現退場潮那在過程當中的時候為什麼出現在退場潮一定有一些相關的一些問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個鄭先生董事長也點頭嘛這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出能電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池\n\n24\n00:08:34,598 --> 00:08:54,350\n要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?\n\n25\n00:08:56,334 --> 00:09:19,967\n我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設純能電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定\n\n26\n00:09:21,568 --> 00:09:31,169\n後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的一個標準\n\n27\n00:09:33,075 --> 00:09:33,095\n市長\n\n28\n00:10:03,355 --> 00:10:20,228\n是,是這樣子嘛對不對?是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的所以本席這邊也特別希望\n\n29\n00:10:20,888 --> 00:10:44,250\n就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道\n\n30\n00:10:46,141 --> 00:10:51,757\n你是說鋰電池試貨的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?\n\n31\n00:10:52,794 --> 00:11:17,067\n現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下對我看你剛剛本來想要表示沒有我們現在在做深度節能就是EXCO的時候會用到儲電\n\n32\n00:11:18,248 --> 00:11:19,530\n我們在用exco的時候\n\n33\n00:11:39,832 --> 00:12:07,896\n綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟\n\n34\n00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:37,409\n環境部這一邊社長你簡單回答對對太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有只要有破損比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理\n\n35\n00:12:38,089 --> 00:12:55,274\nOK,我知道目前有辦法可以處理,可是對於整個的一個回收的機制的時候還沒有很完善,所以粉席希望說我們經濟部,顧部長在這邊,跟我們環境部這邊,能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制,能夠盡快的完善,好不好?謝謝以上。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n223\t16281\t鄭正鈐委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長跟沈長赤還有沈長赤\n22765\t44460\t委員長現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟\n45641\t59955\t經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號\n61756\t81426\t才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題\n83046\t103982\t那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說台灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有一些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應\n107725\t121582\t這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來\n123324\t151938\t明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位\n153178\t158621\t那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背的表示你的中文底子其實挺好的\n179514\t195632\t但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為\n196152\t221174\t重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以他的執行力其實很關鍵那我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態\n223459\t246498\t我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題\n247839\t272706\t而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決．或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決．因為他們都是我們的國民．國民所產生的問題我們就是要共同來解決理解齁那部長那因為那個我想針對省次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對\n273686\t274647\t可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎?\n293176\t310117\t對,謝謝委員藉這個機會我再說明一下,排放標準的部分,比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是耐耗性的部分,歐盟有的標準我們都跟他一樣,甚至比他略嚴格,歐盟沒有的標準我們...那我問一下,我們的力狀污染物的排放標準是多少,台灣目前?\n310678\t336877\t跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎\n338358\t365600\t就是因為發電量不同的時候會有不同的標準嘛那我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做一個溝通不要造成民眾的一個困擾跟反彈好不好那針對這部分的時候我想說先到這邊我想接下來我想問的一個事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源嘛所以很多人也都強調綠電的部分那國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到\n367121\t378626\t希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少部長你知道嗎我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下\n379488\t404599\t報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前瞻基礎建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字\n409602\t419454\t我們儲能的話,我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個儲能的這個市場\n429184\t453871\t能夠得到更大的這個...理解喔那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下齁如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會期到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙啦齁那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些\n455953\t462608\t與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的\n465795\t483239\t農量是1.3 Giga但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1 Giga所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退場潮\n485920\t510288\t很多人看出現退場潮那在過程當中的時候為什麼出現在退場潮一定有一些相關的一些問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個鄭先生董事長也點頭嘛這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出能電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池\n514598\t534350\t要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?\n536334\t559967\t我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設純能電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定\n561568\t571169\t後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的一個標準\n573075\t573095\t市長\n603355\t620228\t是,是這樣子嘛對不對?是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的所以本席這邊也特別希望\n620888\t644250\t就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道\n646141\t651757\t你是說鋰電池試貨的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?\n652794\t677067\t現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下對我看你剛剛本來想要表示沒有我們現在在做深度節能就是EXCO的時候會用到儲電\n678248\t679530\t我們在用exco的時候\n699832\t727896\t綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟\n728636\t757409\t環境部這一邊 社長你簡單回答對對 太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有只要有破損 比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理\n758089\t775274\tOK,我知道目前有辦法可以處理,可是對於整個的一個回收的機制的時候還沒有很完善,所以粉席希望說我們經濟部,顧部長在這邊,跟我們環境部這邊,能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制,能夠盡快的完善,好不好?謝謝以上。\n","txt":"鄭正鈐委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長跟沈長赤還有沈長赤\n委員長現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟\n經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號\n才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題\n那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說台灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有一些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應\n這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來\n明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位\n那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背的表示你的中文底子其實挺好的\n但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為\n重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以他的執行力其實很關鍵那我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態\n我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題\n而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決．或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決．因為他們都是我們的國民．國民所產生的問題我們就是要共同來解決理解齁那部長那因為那個我想針對省次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對\n可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎?\n對,謝謝委員藉這個機會我再說明一下,排放標準的部分,比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是耐耗性的部分,歐盟有的標準我們都跟他一樣,甚至比他略嚴格,歐盟沒有的標準我們...那我問一下,我們的力狀污染物的排放標準是多少,台灣目前?\n跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎\n就是因為發電量不同的時候會有不同的標準嘛那我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做一個溝通不要造成民眾的一個困擾跟反彈好不好那針對這部分的時候我想說先到這邊我想接下來我想問的一個事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源嘛所以很多人也都強調綠電的部分那國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到\n希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少部長你知道嗎我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下\n報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前瞻基礎建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字\n我們儲能的話,我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個儲能的這個市場\n能夠得到更大的這個...理解喔那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下齁如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會期到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙啦齁那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些\n與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的\n農量是1.3 Giga但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1 Giga所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退場潮\n很多人看出現退場潮那在過程當中的時候為什麼出現在退場潮一定有一些相關的一些問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個鄭先生董事長也點頭嘛這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出能電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池\n要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?\n我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設純能電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定\n後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的一個標準\n市長\n是,是這樣子嘛對不對?是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的所以本席這邊也特別希望\n就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道\n你是說鋰電池試貨的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?\n現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下對我看你剛剛本來想要表示沒有我們現在在做深度節能就是EXCO的時候會用到儲電\n我們在用exco的時候\n綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟\n環境部這一邊 社長你簡單回答對對 太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有只要有破損 比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理\nOK,我知道目前有辦法可以處理,可是對於整個的一個回收的機制的時候還沒有很完善,所以粉席希望說我們經濟部,顧部長在這邊,跟我們環境部這邊,能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制,能夠盡快的完善,好不好?謝謝以上。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.223 --> 00:16.281\n鄭正鈐委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長跟沈長赤還有沈長赤\n\n00:22.765 --> 00:44.460\n委員長現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟\n\n00:45.641 --> 00:59.955\n經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號\n\n01:01.756 --> 01:21.426\n才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題\n\n01:23.046 --> 01:43.982\n那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說台灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有一些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應\n\n01:47.725 --> 02:01.582\n這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來\n\n02:03.324 --> 02:31.938\n明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位\n\n02:33.178 --> 02:38.621\n那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背的表示你的中文底子其實挺好的\n\n02:59.514 --> 03:15.632\n但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為\n\n03:16.152 --> 03:41.174\n重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以他的執行力其實很關鍵那我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態\n\n03:43.459 --> 04:06.498\n我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題\n\n04:07.839 --> 04:32.706\n而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決．或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決．因為他們都是我們的國民．國民所產生的問題我們就是要共同來解決理解齁那部長那因為那個我想針對省次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對\n\n04:33.686 --> 04:34.647\n可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎?\n\n04:53.176 --> 05:10.117\n對,謝謝委員藉這個機會我再說明一下,排放標準的部分,比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是耐耗性的部分,歐盟有的標準我們都跟他一樣,甚至比他略嚴格,歐盟沒有的標準我們...那我問一下,我們的力狀污染物的排放標準是多少,台灣目前?\n\n05:10.678 --> 05:36.877\n跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎\n\n05:38.358 --> 06:05.600\n就是因為發電量不同的時候會有不同的標準嘛那我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做一個溝通不要造成民眾的一個困擾跟反彈好不好那針對這部分的時候我想說先到這邊我想接下來我想問的一個事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源嘛所以很多人也都強調綠電的部分那國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到\n\n06:07.121 --> 06:18.626\n希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少部長你知道嗎我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下\n\n06:19.488 --> 06:44.599\n報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前瞻基礎建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字\n\n06:49.602 --> 06:59.454\n我們儲能的話,我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個儲能的這個市場\n\n07:09.184 --> 07:33.871\n能夠得到更大的這個...理解喔那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下齁如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會期到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙啦齁那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些\n\n07:35.953 --> 07:42.608\n與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的\n\n07:45.795 --> 08:03.239\n農量是1.3Giga但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1Giga所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退場潮\n\n08:05.920 --> 08:30.288\n很多人看出現退場潮那在過程當中的時候為什麼出現在退場潮一定有一些相關的一些問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個鄭先生董事長也點頭嘛這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出能電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池\n\n08:34.598 --> 08:54.350\n要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?\n\n08:56.334 --> 09:19.967\n我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設純能電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定\n\n09:21.568 --> 09:31.169\n後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的一個標準\n\n09:33.075 --> 09:33.095\n市長\n\n10:03.355 --> 10:20.228\n是,是這樣子嘛對不對?是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的所以本席這邊也特別希望\n\n10:20.888 --> 10:44.250\n就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道\n\n10:46.141 --> 10:51.757\n你是說鋰電池試貨的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?\n\n10:52.794 --> 11:17.067\n現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下對我看你剛剛本來想要表示沒有我們現在在做深度節能就是EXCO的時候會用到儲電\n\n11:18.248 --> 11:19.530\n我們在用exco的時候\n\n11:39.832 --> 12:07.896\n綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟\n\n12:08.636 --> 12:37.409\n環境部這一邊社長你簡單回答對對太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有只要有破損比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理\n\n12:38.089 --> 12:55.274\nOK,我知道目前有辦法可以處理,可是對於整個的一個回收的機制的時候還沒有很完善,所以粉席希望說我們經濟部,顧部長在這邊,跟我們環境部這邊,能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制,能夠盡快的完善,好不好?謝謝以上。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.223,"end":16.281,"text":"鄭正鈐委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長跟沈長赤還有沈長赤"},{"start":22.765,"end":44.46,"text":"委員長現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟"},{"start":45.641,"end":59.955,"text":"經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號"},{"start":61.756,"end":81.426,"text":"才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題"},{"start":83.046,"end":103.982,"text":"那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說台灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有一些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應"},{"start":107.725,"end":121.582,"text":"這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來"},{"start":123.324,"end":151.938,"text":"明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位"},{"start":153.178,"end":158.621,"text":"那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背的表示你的中文底子其實挺好的"},{"start":179.514,"end":195.632,"text":"但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為"},{"start":196.152,"end":221.174,"text":"重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以他的執行力其實很關鍵那我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態"},{"start":223.459,"end":246.498,"text":"我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題"},{"start":247.839,"end":272.706,"text":"而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決．或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決．因為他們都是我們的國民．國民所產生的問題我們就是要共同來解決理解齁那部長那因為那個我想針對省次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對"},{"start":273.686,"end":274.647,"text":"可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎?"},{"start":293.176,"end":310.117,"text":"對,謝謝委員藉這個機會我再說明一下,排放標準的部分,比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是耐耗性的部分,歐盟有的標準我們都跟他一樣,甚至比他略嚴格,歐盟沒有的標準我們...那我問一下,我們的力狀污染物的排放標準是多少,台灣目前?"},{"start":310.678,"end":336.877,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎"},{"start":338.358,"end":365.6,"text":"就是因為發電量不同的時候會有不同的標準嘛那我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做一個溝通不要造成民眾的一個困擾跟反彈好不好那針對這部分的時候我想說先到這邊我想接下來我想問的一個事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源嘛所以很多人也都強調綠電的部分那國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到"},{"start":367.121,"end":378.626,"text":"希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少部長你知道嗎我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下"},{"start":379.488,"end":404.599,"text":"報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前瞻基礎建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字"},{"start":409.602,"end":419.454,"text":"我們儲能的話,我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個儲能的這個市場"},{"start":429.184,"end":453.871,"text":"能夠得到更大的這個...理解喔那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下齁如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會期到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙啦齁那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些"},{"start":455.953,"end":462.608,"text":"與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的"},{"start":465.795,"end":483.239,"text":"農量是1.3 Giga但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1 Giga所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退場潮"},{"start":485.92,"end":510.288,"text":"很多人看出現退場潮那在過程當中的時候為什麼出現在退場潮一定有一些相關的一些問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個鄭先生董事長也點頭嘛這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出能電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池"},{"start":514.598,"end":534.35,"text":"要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?"},{"start":536.334,"end":559.967,"text":"我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設純能電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定"},{"start":561.568,"end":571.169,"text":"後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的一個標準"},{"start":573.075,"end":573.095,"text":"市長"},{"start":603.355,"end":620.228,"text":"是,是這樣子嘛對不對?是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的所以本席這邊也特別希望"},{"start":620.888,"end":644.25,"text":"就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道"},{"start":646.141,"end":651.757,"text":"你是說鋰電池試貨的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?"},{"start":652.794,"end":677.067,"text":"現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下對我看你剛剛本來想要表示沒有我們現在在做深度節能就是EXCO的時候會用到儲電"},{"start":678.248,"end":679.53,"text":"我們在用exco的時候"},{"start":699.832,"end":727.896,"text":"綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟"},{"start":728.636,"end":757.409,"text":"環境部這一邊 社長你簡單回答對對 太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有只要有破損 比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理"},{"start":758.089,"end":775.274,"text":"OK,我知道目前有辦法可以處理,可是對於整個的一個回收的機制的時候還沒有很完善,所以粉席希望說我們經濟部,顧部長在這邊,跟我們環境部這邊,能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制,能夠盡快的完善,好不好?謝謝以上。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時28分）謝謝主席，我想請一下郭部長和沈常次。"],["主席：請郭部長和沈常次。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長早。主席今天安排了經濟部的業報，然後也針對SRF相關的問題進行專報，說實話，我覺得經濟部講到經濟發展，跟環境部的立場有時候會有一些些衝突，所以今天環境部跟經濟部一起在這邊備詢，我覺得這個機會其實也是挺難得。我首先問一下郭部長，你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開，但他們這次要延到11月4號至11月8號才開始召開，而且預計會提出一個10兆刺激經濟的財政方案。日本在上週也完成了國會選舉，然後他們預計在11月11號才要進行首相改選。這裡面有一個共同點，就是他們都配合美國大選的問題。針對美國大選，坦白說目前競爭也是很激烈，可是因為有特定候選人不斷的表示說臺灣偷了美國的晶片，針對這個問題，我不知道經濟部是不是有一些特別的作法，能夠因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的問題，可不可以請部長簡單做個回應？"],["郭部長智輝：就像剛才委員所指教的，這裡面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題，所以我們在美國選舉最後的這一段日子裡面，其實是不便提出個人的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，不過我相信在美國大選之後，一定會對臺灣的產業產生一些影響，所以我們也希望經濟部能夠提早因應，而且有一些備案，有A方案、有B方案，一起來做相對的因應。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教，我想這個部分在國安系統上面應該都有準備，經濟部當然會做一些simulation，就是說針對環境有什麼樣改變的時候，我們的因應對策是什麼。抱歉，目前我們比較不能夠去評論，因為他們還在選舉進行中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，因為我剛剛聽到委員在問你，我發現你的國學能力其實很強，可以背出很好的詩詞來，也就是在講畫大餅這件事情的時候，這表示你的中文底子其實是挺好的。針對畫餅這個事情，因為我們之前追問過很多次，有關於你不斷地提到2030年之前，臺灣不缺電、也不缺綠電這件事情，我覺得你有一個前提都是現有的計畫如果能夠如期進行，因為重點在於是不是能夠如期進行，所以它的執行力其實很關鍵。我只是要特別提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分，顯然就碰到有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題，所以我在這邊也想問一下，環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中，是不是有足夠的能力去處理，然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標，我想委員應該很清楚，我從民間來，我做事情的風格就是全力以赴，到能夠達標為止。有關您剛才所指導的部分，包括跟民間溝通的這件事情，我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題，而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決，或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決，因為他們都是我們的國民，國民所產生的問題，我們就是要共同來解決。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。沈次長剛剛回答其他委員的問題時，提到今年年底以前針對SRF的相關法令規定會具體提出來對不對？因為很多委員也都具體提到我們目前對於材料的部分比照歐盟的標準，可是對空污的部分並沒有比照歐盟的標準，因為依照現在的空污法，我們的標準相對寬鬆，可以請次長先簡單回應一下嗎？"],["沈次長志修：謝謝委員，藉這個機會我再說明一下，有關排放標準，比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是戴奧辛的部分，歐盟有的標準，我們都跟它一樣，甚至比它略為嚴格；歐盟沒有的標準，我們甚至在參考其他國家……"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我問一下，臺灣目前的粒狀污染物排放標準是多少？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，之前桃園市政府副市長有提出建議，桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議，我要藉這個機會做一個說明：歐盟對於發電量的規模有不同的標準……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["沈次長志修：以我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講，我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以針對氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎？"],["沈次長志修：是，一樣。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是因為發電量不同的時候，會有不同的標準嘛！"],["沈次長志修：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做溝通，不要造成民眾的困擾跟反彈，好不好？"],["沈次長志修：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分我先探討到這邊，接下來我想問的事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源，所以很多委員也都強調綠電的部分，國發會在109年特別提到在2030年的時候，我們的儲能設備的目標值是多少？部長，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請能源署來報告一下？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，整個儲能我們是分成併網型儲能1GW，然後在發電端的是500MW。"],["鄭委員正鈐：以我所看到的數字，國發會在109年前瞻基礎建設當中的「支持推動民間建設」是提到3GW，請問到目前為止，全國已完工儲能電廠的容量是多少？有沒有具體數字？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們應該是有具體數字，儲能的話，報告委員，我們現在有新的發電模式，然後可以讓儲能這個市場能夠得到更大的應用。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，我這邊先簡單講一下，如果在沒有數字的時候，坦白說，其實從上個會期到現在，我發現經濟部確實很想努力去發展綠電這部分，然後也在排除目前碰到的一些阻礙，這部分本席是肯定的，包括有一些漁電共生等等相關的問題。上次有跟部長質詢過，我在看到數字的時候，到目前為止，我們儲能電廠的容量是1.3GW，但是台電到2025年的時候，我看到的數字是只要1GW，所以目前是有點超前，超前坦白說不一定是好，也不一定是不好，可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠出現了退場潮，在這個過程當中，為什麼出現退場潮，一定有一些相關問題產生，因為今天環境部次長也在這邊，我想特別提到，這1.3GW，剛剛曾文生董事長也點頭表示，這數字是對的，對不對？是對的，所以我想問一下，是1.3GW的時候，儲能電廠要用到多少的鋰電池？"],["沈次長志修：這個我們沒有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：有沒有誰可以回答？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去了解一下。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，了解後請回答我，坦白說，我們跟經濟部這邊要資料都要了好多天，也都沒有拿到具體的數字，所以能源署長這邊有數字嗎？1.3GW需要用多少鋰電池？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回部以後馬上去了解，然後再跟委員報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我為什麼特別問到這個，因為之前在籌設儲能電廠的時候，坦白說，是非常的寬鬆，只要有土地使用許可，有台電的饋線就可以設，所以基本上在這個過程當中，對於消防、對於安全、對於整個廢棄物處理都沒有相關的規定，後來慢慢進行補救的時候，像現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來，可是對於整個廢棄物的處理，目前有沒有一個具體的處理標準呢？請次長。"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告一下，鋰電池是我們公告回收的項目，但現在主要都是針對我們平常、日常生活使用的，像這種產業大量的儲能，這是未來的一個趨勢，所以對於這個部分的處理量能也會視其生命週期排出的量能、規模之後，自然會引導這樣的產業進來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長，所以簡單講，現在只有針對小型的部分有回收，但對於工業型使用的、產業在用的，其實是沒有回收、沒有標準。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是這樣子嘛，對不對？"],["沈次長志修：產業規模到那裡的時候它就會進來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這就是我特別要提到的問題，到目前為止，我們只針對1公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的機制；1公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以本席也特別希望，我們經濟部跟環境部能夠針對工業使用的鋰電池回收，能夠儘快訂出一個標準。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：尤其是鋰電池失火的問題，到目前為止，有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場？郭部長知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：你是說鋰電池失火的問題嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，到目前有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在很多人在經營上面，可能是因為它沒有被使用，所以我們現在就是會去了解這些問題，因為它可以不在它原來的事業目的上面去做，它其實轉到其他的商業模式上……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。曾董事長，你剛剛要補充哪一個部分？你可不可以補充一下？我看你剛剛想要表示一下意見，沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們現在在做深度節能，就是ESCO的時候，會用到儲電，我們在用ESCO的時候……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我今天特別要講一個點，因為今天你跟環境部次長其實都在現場，針對我剛剛講的，工業用使用的鋰電池的回收，目前顯然是沒有，可是它對於我們經濟部在推的綠能，顯然是重要的東西，所以我們希望在發展綠電的過程當中，環保問題也要同時兼顧到。我這邊也要特別講到，對於太陽能板，因為馬上也會碰到回收的問題，太陽能板目前的回收，也是用粉碎的方式、用掩埋的方式，目前以這為多數，可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收，進入再循環的體系當中？"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分，我們工研院已經有solution。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，可是目前它沒有進到整個的回收標準……"],["郭部長智輝：因為它還沒有到回收的事實……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，請次長簡單回答。"],["沈次長志修：太陽能板的部分，事實上，現在已經有收基金，就是每千瓦要收1,000塊，就這個部分，我們已經有部分國內廠商投入研發，比如說颱風來有破損的部分，打專線電話就會有人來清除、處理，但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年、20年後，在其大量產生的時候，一定會帶動國內投入設廠的部分，且目前已經有方法可以處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我知道目前有方法可以處理……"],["沈次長志修：包括風力發電的部分，我們也已經考慮到風機機片的回收再利用。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是整個回收機制還沒有很完善，所以本席希望我們經濟部郭部長跟我們環境部，能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制，能夠儘快予以完善，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["沈次長志修：是，我們會跟經濟部一起來。謝謝。"],["主席：請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}}