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00:00:12,847\n謝謝主席,有請我們司法院副秘書長黃副秘書長還有我們行政廳的高廳長還有財政部理事長黃副秘書長、高廳長跟理事長三位好\n\n2\n00:00:31,107 --> 00:00:59,415\n我想我簡單的來就教幾件事啦。這個新字啊,這個新字要上路啊。我剛很仔細的在底下這樣聆聽啊。我就認為要再充分的做一個討論啊。所以我想這個召委可能也這個部分公聽啊,也不可免啊。我為什麼這樣講呢?我記得我當年在念書的時候啊,尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候。\n\n3\n00:01:00,933 --> 00:01:24,013\n那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的訴訟制度那這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修一直修修修那今天我看到這樣這個是有一點感慨國家科稅\n\n4\n00:01:25,337 --> 00:01:39,037\n這個其實是一個高權行為啦我一瞌睡以後啊老百姓當然是哇哇叫啊這個什麼誠實繳稅什麼這個都是課本上講給大家聽的沒有繳到很多稅的人也應該都會喜歡聽這個\n\n5\n00:01:40,279 --> 00:02:09,446\n可是真正我們財政部這個稅卷機關好像在像老百姓這樣拔鵝毛的時候他當然會嘩嘩叫那今天有幾個問題又來救救當然你要解決這個萬年稅單這個問題因為困擾確實台灣民眾也非常久那這一次的稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的一個問題其實裡面涉及到不只這一些本席一直有一個疑問我昨天光看那個納保法二十幾條我看到最後就快睡著了\n\n6\n00:02:10,006 --> 00:02:15,411\n我們2016講在我們司法法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單沒有幾個人有辦法審所以還是要先公聽這個還是要比較透明一點我們2016年我們納稅者保護法通過以後在2017年正式實施把納稅者保護法定位為\n\n7\n00:02:34,628 --> 00:02:34,888\n可以可以可以\n\n8\n00:03:01,861 --> 00:03:19,646\n報告委員納保法當然就是它是著重在納稅者權利保護當然我們這一部的稅務行政事件稅審法其實保護納稅者權利也是我們的立法目的之一那所以其實兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這一個部分是一致的\n\n9\n00:03:43,533 --> 00:03:43,553\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n10\n00:04:05,909 --> 00:04:12,427\n我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。\n\n11\n00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:35,007\n我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是,你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間啊,武器不平等的問題。\n\n12\n00:04:36,207 --> 00:04:55,424\n你稅政機關啊你本來就是非常有專業囉我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂也不會啦他也會去訓練只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗每天實地在操作而已啊可是呢理論上來講啊比如說王滬密今天這個案子你今天是審辦長\n\n13\n00:04:57,748 --> 00:05:25,236\n這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態我每一次在協調你們財政部稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後\n\n14\n00:05:26,274 --> 00:05:51,592\n我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕\n\n15\n00:05:52,432 --> 00:05:56,073\n我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說\n\n16\n00:06:22,669 --> 00:06:35,532\n幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊\n\n17\n00:06:50,345 --> 00:06:53,232\n委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個技術長官他當時確實有這種\n\n18\n00:06:55,066 --> 00:06:56,107\n一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們自衛局自己的處分反而\n\n19\n00:07:24,401 --> 00:07:51,368\n他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑\n\n20\n00:07:52,368 --> 00:08:06,698\n美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來\n\n21\n00:08:07,993 --> 00:08:13,899\n帶著小孩來法官在審理案件的時候那真的是充滿了溫暖阿呦阿你今天陪著你媽媽來喔阿你吃什麼你好可愛喔阿你覺得我應該做什麼判決然後那個小孩子也很天真我媽媽很可憐我們沒有飯吃了那個法官也不講理喔好啦就這樣撤銷掉啦好好孝順父母我怎麼說天啊可以這樣判喔\n\n22\n00:08:31,940 --> 00:08:35,122\n但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關啊。我覺得也很好。\n\n23\n00:08:51,398 --> 00:09:14,170\n這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來我要去申複我要去溯怨然後再繳三分之一來來去去那真的是痛苦那到最後不如行政部門跟當時人民之間一次交給法院法院也可以自為處分自為判決\n\n24\n00:09:18,883 --> 00:09:30,011\n這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把它上訴到最高法院最高法院他也不跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我幫你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔\n\n25\n00:09:39,460 --> 00:09:49,526\n司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性\n\n26\n00:09:50,782 --> 00:09:51,142\n市長,你的看法合不合理?\n\n27\n00:10:19,893 --> 00:10:20,433\n錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!\n\n28\n00:10:49,997 --> 00:11:02,091\n你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練\n\n29\n00:11:04,284 --> 00:11:08,585\n你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態到處又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等\n\n30\n00:11:25,666 --> 00:11:51,589\n所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一卦的\n\n31\n00:11:53,360 --> 00:12:11,626\n這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁\n\n32\n00:12:13,168 --> 00:12:13,188\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4285\t12847\t謝謝主席,有請我們司法院副秘書長黃副秘書長還有我們行政廳的高廳長還有財政部理事長黃副秘書長、高廳長跟理事長三位好\n31107\t59415\t我想我簡單的來就教幾件事啦。這個新字啊,這個新字要上路啊。我剛很仔細的在底下這樣聆聽啊。我就認為要再充分的做一個討論啊。所以我想這個召委可能也這個部分公聽啊,也不可免啊。我為什麼這樣講呢?我記得我當年在念書的時候啊,尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候。\n60933\t84013\t那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的訴訟制度那這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修一直修修修那今天我看到這樣這個是有一點感慨國家科稅\n85337\t99037\t這個其實是一個高權行為啦我一瞌睡以後啊老百姓當然是哇哇叫啊這個什麼誠實繳稅什麼這個都是課本上講給大家聽的沒有繳到很多稅的人也應該都會喜歡聽這個\n100279\t129446\t可是真正我們財政部這個稅卷機關好像在像老百姓這樣拔鵝毛的時候他當然會嘩嘩叫那今天有幾個問題又來救救當然你要解決這個萬年稅單這個問題因為困擾確實台灣民眾也非常久那這一次的稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的一個問題其實裡面涉及到不只這一些本席一直有一個疑問我昨天光看那個納保法二十幾條我看到最後就快睡著了\n130006\t135411\t我們2016講在我們司法法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單沒有幾個人有辦法審所以還是要先公聽這個還是要比較透明一點我們2016年我們納稅者保護法通過以後在2017年正式實施把納稅者保護法定位為\n154628\t154888\t可以可以可以\n181861\t199646\t報告委員納保法當然就是它是著重在納稅者權利保護當然我們這一部的稅務行政事件稅審法其實保護納稅者權利也是我們的立法目的之一那所以其實兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這一個部分是一致的\n200026\t223473\t﹏﹏﹏﹏\n223533\t223553\t﹝廣告﹞\n245909\t252427\t我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。\n254639\t275007\t我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是,你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間啊,武器不平等的問題。\n276207\t295424\t你稅政機關啊你本來就是非常有專業囉我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂也不會啦他也會去訓練只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗每天實地在操作而已啊可是呢理論上來講啊比如說王滬密今天這個案子你今天是審辦長\n297748\t325236\t這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態我每一次在協調你們財政部稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後\n326274\t351592\t我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕\n352432\t356073\t我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說\n382669\t395532\t幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊\n410345\t413232\t委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個技術長官他當時確實有這種\n415066\t416107\t一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們自衛局自己的處分反而\n444401\t471368\t他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑\n472368\t486698\t美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來\n487993\t493899\t帶著小孩來法官在審理案件的時候那真的是充滿了溫暖阿呦阿你今天陪著你媽媽來喔阿你吃什麼你好可愛喔阿你覺得我應該做什麼判決然後那個小孩子也很天真我媽媽很可憐我們沒有飯吃了那個法官也不講理喔好啦就這樣撤銷掉啦好好孝順父母我怎麼說天啊可以這樣判喔\n511940\t515122\t但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關啊。我覺得也很好。\n531398\t554170\t這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來我要去申複我要去溯怨然後再繳三分之一來來去去那真的是痛苦那到最後不如行政部門跟當時人民之間一次交給法院法院也可以自為處分自為判決\n558883\t570011\t這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把它上訴到最高法院最高法院他也不跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我幫你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔\n579460\t589526\t司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性\n590782\t591142\t市長,你的看法合不合理?\n619893\t620433\t錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!\n649997\t662091\t你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練\n664284\t668585\t你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態到處又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等\n685666\t711589\t所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一卦的\n713360\t731626\t這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁\n733168\t733188\t﹝廣告﹞\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請我們司法院副秘書長黃副秘書長還有我們行政廳的高廳長還有財政部理事長黃副秘書長、高廳長跟理事長三位好\n我想我簡單的來就教幾件事啦。這個新字啊,這個新字要上路啊。我剛很仔細的在底下這樣聆聽啊。我就認為要再充分的做一個討論啊。所以我想這個召委可能也這個部分公聽啊,也不可免啊。我為什麼這樣講呢?我記得我當年在念書的時候啊,尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候。\n那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的訴訟制度那這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修一直修修修那今天我看到這樣這個是有一點感慨國家科稅\n這個其實是一個高權行為啦我一瞌睡以後啊老百姓當然是哇哇叫啊這個什麼誠實繳稅什麼這個都是課本上講給大家聽的沒有繳到很多稅的人也應該都會喜歡聽這個\n可是真正我們財政部這個稅卷機關好像在像老百姓這樣拔鵝毛的時候他當然會嘩嘩叫那今天有幾個問題又來救救當然你要解決這個萬年稅單這個問題因為困擾確實台灣民眾也非常久那這一次的稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的一個問題其實裡面涉及到不只這一些本席一直有一個疑問我昨天光看那個納保法二十幾條我看到最後就快睡著了\n我們2016講在我們司法法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單沒有幾個人有辦法審所以還是要先公聽這個還是要比較透明一點我們2016年我們納稅者保護法通過以後在2017年正式實施把納稅者保護法定位為\n可以可以可以\n報告委員納保法當然就是它是著重在納稅者權利保護當然我們這一部的稅務行政事件稅審法其實保護納稅者權利也是我們的立法目的之一那所以其實兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這一個部分是一致的\n﹏﹏﹏﹏\n﹝廣告﹞\n我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。\n我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是,你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間啊,武器不平等的問題。\n你稅政機關啊你本來就是非常有專業囉我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂也不會啦他也會去訓練只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗每天實地在操作而已啊可是呢理論上來講啊比如說王滬密今天這個案子你今天是審辦長\n這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態我每一次在協調你們財政部稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後\n我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕\n我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說\n幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊\n委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個技術長官他當時確實有這種\n一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們自衛局自己的處分反而\n他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑\n美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來\n帶著小孩來法官在審理案件的時候那真的是充滿了溫暖阿呦阿你今天陪著你媽媽來喔阿你吃什麼你好可愛喔阿你覺得我應該做什麼判決然後那個小孩子也很天真我媽媽很可憐我們沒有飯吃了那個法官也不講理喔好啦就這樣撤銷掉啦好好孝順父母我怎麼說天啊可以這樣判喔\n但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關啊。我覺得也很好。\n這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來我要去申複我要去溯怨然後再繳三分之一來來去去那真的是痛苦那到最後不如行政部門跟當時人民之間一次交給法院法院也可以自為處分自為判決\n這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把它上訴到最高法院最高法院他也不跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我幫你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔\n司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性\n市長,你的看法合不合理?\n錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!\n你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練\n你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態到處又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等\n所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一卦的\n這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁\n﹝廣告﹞\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.285 --> 00:12.847\n謝謝主席,有請我們司法院副秘書長黃副秘書長還有我們行政廳的高廳長還有財政部理事長黃副秘書長、高廳長跟理事長三位好\n\n00:31.107 --> 00:59.415\n我想我簡單的來就教幾件事啦。這個新字啊,這個新字要上路啊。我剛很仔細的在底下這樣聆聽啊。我就認為要再充分的做一個討論啊。所以我想這個召委可能也這個部分公聽啊,也不可免啊。我為什麼這樣講呢?我記得我當年在念書的時候啊,尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候。\n\n01:00.933 --> 01:24.013\n那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的訴訟制度那這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修一直修修修那今天我看到這樣這個是有一點感慨國家科稅\n\n01:25.337 --> 01:39.037\n這個其實是一個高權行為啦我一瞌睡以後啊老百姓當然是哇哇叫啊這個什麼誠實繳稅什麼這個都是課本上講給大家聽的沒有繳到很多稅的人也應該都會喜歡聽這個\n\n01:40.279 --> 02:09.446\n可是真正我們財政部這個稅卷機關好像在像老百姓這樣拔鵝毛的時候他當然會嘩嘩叫那今天有幾個問題又來救救當然你要解決這個萬年稅單這個問題因為困擾確實台灣民眾也非常久那這一次的稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的一個問題其實裡面涉及到不只這一些本席一直有一個疑問我昨天光看那個納保法二十幾條我看到最後就快睡著了\n\n02:10.006 --> 02:15.411\n我們2016講在我們司法法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單沒有幾個人有辦法審所以還是要先公聽這個還是要比較透明一點我們2016年我們納稅者保護法通過以後在2017年正式實施把納稅者保護法定位為\n\n02:34.628 --> 02:34.888\n可以可以可以\n\n03:01.861 --> 03:19.646\n報告委員納保法當然就是它是著重在納稅者權利保護當然我們這一部的稅務行政事件稅審法其實保護納稅者權利也是我們的立法目的之一那所以其實兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這一個部分是一致的\n\n03:43.533 --> 03:43.553\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n04:05.909 --> 04:12.427\n我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。\n\n04:14.639 --> 04:35.007\n我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是,你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間啊,武器不平等的問題。\n\n04:36.207 --> 04:55.424\n你稅政機關啊你本來就是非常有專業囉我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂也不會啦他也會去訓練只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗每天實地在操作而已啊可是呢理論上來講啊比如說王滬密今天這個案子你今天是審辦長\n\n04:57.748 --> 05:25.236\n這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態我每一次在協調你們財政部稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後\n\n05:26.274 --> 05:51.592\n我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕\n\n05:52.432 --> 05:56.073\n我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說\n\n06:22.669 --> 06:35.532\n幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊\n\n06:50.345 --> 06:53.232\n委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個技術長官他當時確實有這種\n\n06:55.066 --> 06:56.107\n一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們自衛局自己的處分反而\n\n07:24.401 --> 07:51.368\n他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑\n\n07:52.368 --> 08:06.698\n美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來\n\n08:07.993 --> 08:13.899\n帶著小孩來法官在審理案件的時候那真的是充滿了溫暖阿呦阿你今天陪著你媽媽來喔阿你吃什麼你好可愛喔阿你覺得我應該做什麼判決然後那個小孩子也很天真我媽媽很可憐我們沒有飯吃了那個法官也不講理喔好啦就這樣撤銷掉啦好好孝順父母我怎麼說天啊可以這樣判喔\n\n08:31.940 --> 08:35.122\n但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關啊。我覺得也很好。\n\n08:51.398 --> 09:14.170\n這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來我要去申複我要去溯怨然後再繳三分之一來來去去那真的是痛苦那到最後不如行政部門跟當時人民之間一次交給法院法院也可以自為處分自為判決\n\n09:18.883 --> 09:30.011\n這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把它上訴到最高法院最高法院他也不跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我幫你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔\n\n09:39.460 --> 09:49.526\n司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性\n\n09:50.782 --> 09:51.142\n市長,你的看法合不合理?\n\n10:19.893 --> 10:20.433\n錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!\n\n10:49.997 --> 11:02.091\n你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練\n\n11:04.284 --> 11:08.585\n你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態到處又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等\n\n11:25.666 --> 11:51.589\n所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一卦的\n\n11:53.360 --> 12:11.626\n這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁\n\n12:13.168 --> 12:13.188\n﹝廣告﹞\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.285,"end":12.847,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們司法院副秘書長黃副秘書長還有我們行政廳的高廳長還有財政部理事長黃副秘書長、高廳長跟理事長三位好"},{"start":31.107,"end":59.415,"text":"我想我簡單的來就教幾件事啦。這個新字啊,這個新字要上路啊。我剛很仔細的在底下這樣聆聽啊。我就認為要再充分的做一個討論啊。所以我想這個召委可能也這個部分公聽啊,也不可免啊。我為什麼這樣講呢?我記得我當年在念書的時候啊,尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候。"},{"start":60.933,"end":84.013,"text":"那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的訴訟制度那這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修一直修修修那今天我看到這樣這個是有一點感慨國家科稅"},{"start":85.337,"end":99.037,"text":"這個其實是一個高權行為啦我一瞌睡以後啊老百姓當然是哇哇叫啊這個什麼誠實繳稅什麼這個都是課本上講給大家聽的沒有繳到很多稅的人也應該都會喜歡聽這個"},{"start":100.279,"end":129.446,"text":"可是真正我們財政部這個稅卷機關好像在像老百姓這樣拔鵝毛的時候他當然會嘩嘩叫那今天有幾個問題又來救救當然你要解決這個萬年稅單這個問題因為困擾確實台灣民眾也非常久那這一次的稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的一個問題其實裡面涉及到不只這一些本席一直有一個疑問我昨天光看那個納保法二十幾條我看到最後就快睡著了"},{"start":130.006,"end":135.411,"text":"我們2016講在我們司法法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單沒有幾個人有辦法審所以還是要先公聽這個還是要比較透明一點我們2016年我們納稅者保護法通過以後在2017年正式實施把納稅者保護法定位為"},{"start":154.628,"end":154.888,"text":"可以可以可以"},{"start":181.861,"end":199.646,"text":"報告委員納保法當然就是它是著重在納稅者權利保護當然我們這一部的稅務行政事件稅審法其實保護納稅者權利也是我們的立法目的之一那所以其實兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這一個部分是一致的"},{"start":200.026,"end":223.473,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":223.533,"end":223.553,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":245.909,"end":252.427,"text":"我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。"},{"start":254.639,"end":275.007,"text":"我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是,你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間啊,武器不平等的問題。"},{"start":276.207,"end":295.424,"text":"你稅政機關啊你本來就是非常有專業囉我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂也不會啦他也會去訓練只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗每天實地在操作而已啊可是呢理論上來講啊比如說王滬密今天這個案子你今天是審辦長"},{"start":297.748,"end":325.236,"text":"這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態我每一次在協調你們財政部稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後"},{"start":326.274,"end":351.592,"text":"我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕"},{"start":352.432,"end":356.073,"text":"我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說"},{"start":382.669,"end":395.532,"text":"幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊"},{"start":410.345,"end":413.232,"text":"委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個技術長官他當時確實有這種"},{"start":415.066,"end":416.107,"text":"一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們自衛局自己的處分反而"},{"start":444.401,"end":471.368,"text":"他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑"},{"start":472.368,"end":486.698,"text":"美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來"},{"start":487.993,"end":493.899,"text":"帶著小孩來法官在審理案件的時候那真的是充滿了溫暖阿呦阿你今天陪著你媽媽來喔阿你吃什麼你好可愛喔阿你覺得我應該做什麼判決然後那個小孩子也很天真我媽媽很可憐我們沒有飯吃了那個法官也不講理喔好啦就這樣撤銷掉啦好好孝順父母我怎麼說天啊可以這樣判喔"},{"start":511.94,"end":515.122,"text":"但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關啊。我覺得也很好。"},{"start":531.398,"end":554.17,"text":"這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來我要去申複我要去溯怨然後再繳三分之一來來去去那真的是痛苦那到最後不如行政部門跟當時人民之間一次交給法院法院也可以自為處分自為判決"},{"start":558.883,"end":570.011,"text":"這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把它上訴到最高法院最高法院他也不跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我幫你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔"},{"start":579.46,"end":589.526,"text":"司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性"},{"start":590.782,"end":591.142,"text":"市長,你的看法合不合理?"},{"start":619.893,"end":620.433,"text":"錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!"},{"start":649.997,"end":662.091,"text":"你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練"},{"start":664.284,"end":668.585,"text":"你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態到處又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等"},{"start":685.666,"end":711.589,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一卦的"},{"start":713.36,"end":731.626,"text":"這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁"},{"start":733.168,"end":733.188,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時37分）謝謝主席，有請司法院黃副秘書長、行政廳廳長、財政部次長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長、高廳長、李次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：3位好。我簡單就教幾件事，這個新制要上路，我剛剛很仔細的在底下聆聽，我認為要再充分地討論，所以召委這部分的公聽可能也不可免，我為什麼這樣講呢？我記得我當年在念書時，尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候，那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講，我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性，然後讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的訴訟制度。這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修，今天我看到這樣是有一點感慨，國家課稅其實是一個高權行為，一課稅以後，老百姓當然是哇哇叫，什麼誠實繳稅都是課本上講給大家聽的，沒有繳到很多稅的人，也應該都會喜歡聽這個，可是財政部稅捐機關真正要向老百姓拔鵝毛的時候，他當然會哇哇叫。今天有幾個問題要來就教，當然你要解決萬年稅單這個問題，確實困擾臺灣民眾已經非常久，這一次稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的問題，其實裡面涉及到的不只這一些。本席一直有一個疑問，我昨天光看納保法二十幾條就看到快睡著了，何況去比較你們的新法？我跟你講，在司法及法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單，沒有幾個人有辦法審啦！所以還是要先公聽，這個還是要比較透明一點。","2016年納稅者權利保護法在我們通過以後，在2017年正式實施把納稅者權利保護法定位為特別法，就是排除稅捐稽徵法的束縛，那現在這部稅務行政事件審理法，看起來又是行政訴訟的一個特別法，我想請問納稅者權利保護法跟本法的關係到底有沒有什麼具體的差別，這個誰可以先告訴我一下？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員，是不是請我們廳長……"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以。"],["程廳長怡怡：報告委員，納保法當然是著重在納稅者權利保護。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然。"],["程廳長怡怡：我們這一部稅務行政事件審理法，其實保護納稅者權利也是其立法目的之一，所以兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這個部分是一致的，只是這一部法律比較偏向於程序法，在訴訟程序方面有一些特別的明定，就像我們的這部法律跟納保法有一些規範是相同的，例如像證據排除，例如像協力義務，這都是相同的規範，只是我們是在納保法所建置的法制基礎架構上，然後在訴訟程序上進一步往前做一些更細緻的規範。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的核心問題是，整個稅捐稽徵法還有整個納保法，難道修正完以後就沒有涵攝到這個部分嗎？你們認為還沒有嗎？"],["程廳長怡怡：是啊！我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我的核心問題就是說，其實剛剛幾個委員在問比如稅保官的問題，這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去做定位，我的問題倒都不是在這邊，我的問題是你們有沒有去思考過這個會造成當事人之間武器不平等的問題，稅捐機關本來就是非常專業，我們當然也不會講法官對這些稅務全部都不懂，也不會啦！他也會去訓練，只是沒有像稅捐稽徵機關那麼有實務經驗、每天實地在操作而已。","可是理論上來講，比如說，黃副秘，今天這個案子你是審判長，這個案子在你手上審的時候，你本來就是要請兩造來聽聽看，你現在加一個稅保官進來以後，第一個，我比較擔心會造成武器不平等，我為什麼擔心怕他造成武器不平等？因為他是來自於稅捐單位，你把他借過來，那個心態，我每一次協調你們財政部稅捐機關在人民的稅務爭訟案件的時候，我一看加上聽到你們的講法以後，我心裡頭都有很大的感慨，我都會跟你們講說，像這種有些事實不明的案件，不用追殺到底，心目中還是要有人民的存在。那個一追殺到底，到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收，是在這個過程裡面，人民那種痛苦真的是很可怕，真的是很可怕。最後到行政法庭上，你們可能會和解收場，可是走出法庭以後，沒有人會對稅捐機關或者法院有任何好的評價，所以我擔心的是這個，我擔心這個會造成武器有沒有平等，然後稅審官到底會站在老百姓這一方，還是會單純站在法官這邊幫他、輔導他、輔佐他做出一個更好的判決？我怕不是，我怕的是又回復到站在行政部門的立場，國家高權追殺，我擔心的是這個，所以你要嘛就自己找，副秘，合理吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果要建立一個公平的訴訟制度的話，本該如此。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這個制度是參考技術審查官，當時確實有這種質疑，所以才有聘用，當時想說聘用就找民間專利代理人，但是後來發現智慧局過來的這些審查官在法官的指揮之下，其實都還能夠保持公平、中立，甚至會質疑通通是智慧局過來的，一天到晚在撤銷他們智慧局自己的處分，反而他們喊出這樣的聲音，所以確實我們這個制度參考主要是參考日本，不管是稅審官，他們也有這一個疑問，所以將來在操作的時候，我們一定會高度注重中立性這一部分。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘書長還有4位，我沒有定見，但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情，你們有空去看YouTube，我常常會看，看到很想笑，美國常常就是行政部門，不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單，然後走到法庭裡面，就一個老爺爺，當事人不服嘛！就抗告到法院來，帶著小孩來。法官在審理案件的時候，那真的是充滿了溫暖，說是：你今天陪著你媽媽來，你吃什麼？你好可愛喔！你覺得我應該做什麼判決，然後那個小孩子也很天真說：我媽媽很可憐，我們沒有飯吃了。那個法官也不講理由，好啦！就這樣撤銷掉了，說要好好孝順父母。我想說：天啊！可以這樣判喔？但重點是你會覺得那個制度超級溫暖，也就是我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊！行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊！常常到最後回復到原處分機關自為處分，那現在變成跨機關，我覺得也很好，這個是觀念上每一個人都可以好好去做突破，就變成與其讓老百姓這樣跟衙門之間、行政部門之間，大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來，我要去申復、我要去訴願，還要再繳三分之一，來來去去，那真的是痛苦，到最後不如行政部門跟人民之間就一次交給法院，法院也可以自為處分、自為判決，這個是很大的突破。連現在我們在民事訴訟跟行政訴訟的時候，你到事實審法院，到高等法院或上訴到最高法院，最高法院也不給你自為判決，那是事實審的問題，把你丟回去。那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破，但是核心概念我還是認為稅審官這個部分，司法院應該好好去做思考，這個是一個定位的問題，除了我剛提到的會造成武器不平等的狀況之下；第二個就是人性，我從財政部來的，我從國稅局來的，我可能要再回去，你借調我而已，我一去之後，全部都給你做出推翻原處分，然後都是有利於人民的處分出來，我回到我的原機關，我被你們這些財政部的高官修理死了！會有這樣的疑慮，你沒有辦法消除。次長，你的看法？合不合理？"],["李次長慶華：我覺得不會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼不會？"],["李次長慶華：不是，我的意思是說……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我講的是人性，什麼不會？"],["李次長慶華：我的意思是說……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你這個講的是站在官官相護的立場。"],["李次長慶華：不是、不是，我的意思是說，他如果到了法院變成稅審官以後，他如果再回到我們財政部的國稅機關或地方稅捐機關處理的話，我相信我們國稅機關跟地方稽徵機關，不會因為他在法院這邊做了一些什麼撤銷的決定，而對他的未來做任何影響。"],["莊委員瑞雄：錯！錯！錯！"],["李次長慶華：這個真的可以跟委員保證。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你說你的保證無效，你這個錯得離譜！第一個，這種情況就是會發生，我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人，不是！我是跟你說那才符合人性。而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎？你們的訓練，稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊！本來就是要增加稅收的啊！然後增加稅收以後，你們的想法就是他本來就是可惡啊！本來就是逃漏稅啊！我徵收剛剛好而已啊！這種公務人員心態這樣訓練起來，我沒有說不對，可是如果以這種心態到最後又到法院去的話，我告訴你就會造成武器不平等。"],["李次長慶華：所以我們也希望就是說，如果行政法院這邊可以採用他自行聘用，那是最好，因為借調的話，當然就會有委員這樣的疑慮。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！我的意思就是說，我們要反省啦！我沒有說全部都不對，這個制度我們就必須要去反省，我也可以請會計師進來啊！"],["李次長慶華：對啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我也可以請一些專業的人進來啊！我幹嘛都讓你，你光一個審判庭的組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正，你們是同一掛的，這個是核心問題，所以我才建議，因為很多問題啦！當然還有涉及到既判力的問題啦！我剛剛提到中間判決，那個都顛覆我們的想法，但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對，未必不對，我很開放，但是我總覺得這一部法就這樣子……你們這樣子，沒有那麼簡單啦！這部法要修真的是，因為對整個制度的一個重大變革，我知道是為了解決事情，可是為了解決什麼事？是為了解決人民的事，不是為了解決政府部門的事，所以要慎重，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝次長，謝謝副秘書長。","先作一個宣告：稍後於吳委員思瑤詢答後，依先前宣告處理臨時提案，然後再休息。","接續下來我們請吳委員思瑤詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}}