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\"end\": 537.74, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,223 --> 00:00:04,444\n謝謝主席,我們有請部長。有請部長。萬委員你好。好,部長辛苦了。我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例,其實我們知道它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的。那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後,這些業務就像您今天報告的,\n\n2\n00:00:45,604 --> 00:01:04,333\n我們繼續來討論我們在過去審查促展條例的時候有一些爭議在當然那時候您都還不清楚當時那個爭議不過現在不義遺址條例這個草案同樣有發生一些盲點我想您一定有看到很多的專家學者或是其實有很多的委員其實都有呼籲轉型正義跟這個不義遺址的保存不能單純的就是在這個34年的8月15號到81年11月6號期間\n\n3\n00:01:12,097 --> 00:01:39,454\n那是應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等那應該以1895年5月8號日本取得台灣主權作為開端那本來我是想問一下部長的看法但剛才我有聽到部長的答詢那您的答詢我剛剛一字一句的把它記錄下來您是這樣說的您說其實不管是針對34年到81年甚至於到這個日據時代以及甚至於您還提到清朝的時候這些您全部認同\n\n4\n00:01:40,154 --> 00:01:43,619\n我剛是一字一句把它記下來的喔那只是現在這個條例草案我們討論是34年到81年所以你就是就這個部分比較具體的這個這個事件喔那你去做一個這個討論喔那我想這裡我要來請教部長喔\n\n5\n00:01:56,396 --> 00:02:12,782\n您剛所謂說在34年到81年這段時間它是比較具體的那難道您剛自己所說的您所認同的在日據時代甚至於在更早以前的一些事件難道就不具體嗎我想請教一下部長您也是來自影視界的文化人賽德克巴萊您看過嗎他的電影我全部看過那這裡面講的是事實嗎\n\n6\n00:02:19,194 --> 00:02:34,971\n應該是接近事實。接近事實,所以有不事實的地方?因為任何的考據、拍電影的…好,沒問題,我同意您一下要講的。那我認為啦,就是說在這個我們所謂的日據時代所謂的物色事件,我們看到不管是原住民的這些我們的朋友們,對於當時這個反抗日本的高壓統治,那發生了一些\n\n7\n00:03:00,734 --> 00:03:14,923\n我們今天來這個審查不義遺址保存條例以及這個所謂的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上文化部是一個主責的機關那如果按照您剛剛所說您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年那我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括\n\n8\n00:03:25,609 --> 00:03:38,039\n所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎?\n\n9\n00:03:39,397 --> 00:03:55,662\n根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始\n\n10\n00:03:57,943 --> 00:04:10,872\n當二二八事變到三十八年來之後開始三十八年的戒嚴他是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式部長我想你有點弄錯我的問題我重複一下我的問題\n\n11\n00:04:13,994 --> 00:04:32,917\n我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論去做審查我覺得討論審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成我們想要達成的這個目標但今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎所以您剛剛也說您認為日據時代也是或者更早也是所以我才請教您您願不願意同不同意我們把這個時間擴大\n\n12\n00:04:43,991 --> 00:05:04,120\n️我﹏在審這個案子的基礎下﹏我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是﹏我們這個案子當初一設定就是﹏定義在民國34年這段﹏不是,第一個齁﹏這個設定其實大家本來就有意見﹏那審查的時候本來就會提出來﹏第二個,您是主責機關啦﹏您都已經對這個事情有意見了﹏為什麼不能改?\n\n13\n00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:20,854\n那我跟您講一下我的心情喔心情好心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個初轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場初轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的\n\n14\n00:05:21,775 --> 00:05:21,915\n﹝請審查委員﹞\n\n15\n00:05:37,751 --> 00:05:39,912\n您的心情啊,您找時間到我辦公室來分享一下,我很願意我挪時間來聽喔。那當然我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。\n\n16\n00:05:52,896 --> 00:06:18,879\n但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例這個草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行這個審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下\n\n17\n00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:20,621\n現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下\n\n18\n00:06:45,782 --> 00:07:13,934\n但是有一些他是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟這個所有權益我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址但是這個公開的過程中我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址你不能用猜的啊因為財產不是你的啊所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀對對對那我是不是請這個執行單位報告一下\n\n19\n00:07:17,819 --> 00:07:19,944\n我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的\n\n20\n00:07:26,349 --> 00:07:55,564\n對外公告的。我想這樣子啦部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼\n\n21\n00:07:57,073 --> 00:07:57,874\n我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。\n\n22\n00:08:08,359 --> 00:08:31,760\n我們只能用勸導吧?只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私有人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎?\n\n23\n00:08:32,944 --> 00:08:35,546\n我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中我們一定要去考慮到現在有很多限制現狀是什麼狀況如果是私人的財產的部分我們希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產飲食權\n\n24\n00:08:56,740 --> 00:08:57,740\n我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1223\t4444\t謝謝主席,我們有請部長。有請部長。萬委員你好。好,部長辛苦了。我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例,其實我們知道它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的。那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後,這些業務就像您今天報告的,\n31152\t44275\t﹏﹏﹏\n45604\t64333\t我們繼續來討論我們在過去審查促展條例的時候有一些爭議在當然那時候您都還不清楚當時那個爭議不過現在不義遺址條例這個草案同樣有發生一些盲點我想您一定有看到很多的專家學者或是其實有很多的委員其實都有呼籲轉型正義跟這個不義遺址的保存不能單純的就是在這個34年的8月15號到81年11月6號期間\n72097\t99454\t那是應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等那應該以1895年5月8號日本取得台灣主權作為開端那本來我是想問一下部長的看法但剛才我有聽到部長的答詢那您的答詢我剛剛一字一句的把它記錄下來您是這樣說的您說其實不管是針對34年到81年甚至於到這個日據時代以及甚至於您還提到清朝的時候這些您全部認同\n100154\t103619\t我剛是一字一句把它記下來的喔那只是現在這個條例草案我們討論是34年到81年所以你就是就這個部分比較具體的這個這個事件喔那你去做一個這個討論喔那我想這裡我要來請教部長喔\n116396\t132782\t您剛所謂說在34年到81年這段時間它是比較具體的那難道您剛自己所說的您所認同的在日據時代甚至於在更早以前的一些事件難道就不具體嗎我想請教一下部長您也是來自影視界的文化人賽德克巴萊您看過嗎他的電影我全部看過那這裡面講的是事實嗎\n139194\t154971\t應該是接近事實。接近事實,所以有不事實的地方?因為任何的考據、拍電影的…好,沒問題,我同意您一下要講的。那我認為啦,就是說在這個我們所謂的日據時代所謂的物色事件,我們看到不管是原住民的這些我們的朋友們,對於當時這個反抗日本的高壓統治,那發生了一些\n161118\t180674\t﹏﹏﹏\n180734\t194923\t我們今天來這個審查不義遺址保存條例以及這個所謂的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上文化部是一個主責的機關那如果按照您剛剛所說您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年那我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括\n205609\t218039\t所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎?\n219397\t235662\t根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始\n237943\t250872\t當二二八事變到三十八年來之後開始三十八年的戒嚴他是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式部長我想你有點弄錯我的問題我重複一下我的問題\n253994\t272917\t我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論去做審查我覺得討論審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成我們想要達成的這個目標但今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎所以您剛剛也說您認為日據時代也是或者更早也是所以我才請教您您願不願意同不同意我們把這個時間擴大\n283991\t304120\t️我﹏在審這個案子的基礎下﹏我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是﹏我們這個案子當初一設定就是﹏定義在民國34年這段﹏不是,第一個齁﹏這個設定其實大家本來就有意見﹏那審查的時候本來就會提出來﹏第二個,您是主責機關啦﹏您都已經對這個事情有意見了﹏為什麼不能改?\n304560\t320854\t那我跟您講一下我的心情喔心情好心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個初轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場初轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的\n321775\t321915\t﹝請審查委員﹞\n337751\t339912\t您的心情啊,您找時間到我辦公室來分享一下,我很願意我挪時間來聽喔。那當然我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。\n352896\t378879\t但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例這個草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行這個審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下\n379580\t380621\t現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下\n405782\t433934\t但是有一些他是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟這個所有權益我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址但是這個公開的過程中我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址你不能用猜的啊因為財產不是你的啊所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀對對對那我是不是請這個執行單位報告一下\n437819\t439944\t我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的\n446349\t475564\t對外公告的。我想這樣子啦部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼\n477073\t477874\t我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。\n488359\t511760\t我們只能用勸導吧?只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私有人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎?\n512944\t515546\t我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中我們一定要去考慮到現在有很多限制現狀是什麼狀況如果是私人的財產的部分我們希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產飲食權\n536740\t537740\t我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長。有請部長。萬委員你好。好,部長辛苦了。我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例,其實我們知道它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的。那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後,這些業務就像您今天報告的,\n﹏﹏﹏\n我們繼續來討論我們在過去審查促展條例的時候有一些爭議在當然那時候您都還不清楚當時那個爭議不過現在不義遺址條例這個草案同樣有發生一些盲點我想您一定有看到很多的專家學者或是其實有很多的委員其實都有呼籲轉型正義跟這個不義遺址的保存不能單純的就是在這個34年的8月15號到81年11月6號期間\n那是應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等那應該以1895年5月8號日本取得台灣主權作為開端那本來我是想問一下部長的看法但剛才我有聽到部長的答詢那您的答詢我剛剛一字一句的把它記錄下來您是這樣說的您說其實不管是針對34年到81年甚至於到這個日據時代以及甚至於您還提到清朝的時候這些您全部認同\n我剛是一字一句把它記下來的喔那只是現在這個條例草案我們討論是34年到81年所以你就是就這個部分比較具體的這個這個事件喔那你去做一個這個討論喔那我想這裡我要來請教部長喔\n您剛所謂說在34年到81年這段時間它是比較具體的那難道您剛自己所說的您所認同的在日據時代甚至於在更早以前的一些事件難道就不具體嗎我想請教一下部長您也是來自影視界的文化人賽德克巴萊您看過嗎他的電影我全部看過那這裡面講的是事實嗎\n應該是接近事實。接近事實,所以有不事實的地方?因為任何的考據、拍電影的…好,沒問題,我同意您一下要講的。那我認為啦,就是說在這個我們所謂的日據時代所謂的物色事件,我們看到不管是原住民的這些我們的朋友們,對於當時這個反抗日本的高壓統治,那發生了一些\n﹏﹏﹏\n我們今天來這個審查不義遺址保存條例以及這個所謂的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上文化部是一個主責的機關那如果按照您剛剛所說您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年那我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括\n所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎?\n根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始\n當二二八事變到三十八年來之後開始三十八年的戒嚴他是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式部長我想你有點弄錯我的問題我重複一下我的問題\n我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論去做審查我覺得討論審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成我們想要達成的這個目標但今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎所以您剛剛也說您認為日據時代也是或者更早也是所以我才請教您您願不願意同不同意我們把這個時間擴大\n️我﹏在審這個案子的基礎下﹏我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是﹏我們這個案子當初一設定就是﹏定義在民國34年這段﹏不是,第一個齁﹏這個設定其實大家本來就有意見﹏那審查的時候本來就會提出來﹏第二個,您是主責機關啦﹏您都已經對這個事情有意見了﹏為什麼不能改?\n那我跟您講一下我的心情喔心情好心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個初轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場初轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的\n﹝請審查委員﹞\n您的心情啊,您找時間到我辦公室來分享一下,我很願意我挪時間來聽喔。那當然我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。\n但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例這個草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行這個審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下\n現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下\n但是有一些他是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟這個所有權益我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址但是這個公開的過程中我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址你不能用猜的啊因為財產不是你的啊所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀對對對那我是不是請這個執行單位報告一下\n我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的\n對外公告的。我想這樣子啦部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼\n我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。\n我們只能用勸導吧?只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私有人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎?\n我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中我們一定要去考慮到現在有很多限制現狀是什麼狀況如果是私人的財產的部分我們希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產飲食權\n我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.223 --> 00:04.444\n謝謝主席,我們有請部長。有請部長。萬委員你好。好,部長辛苦了。我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例,其實我們知道它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的。那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後,這些業務就像您今天報告的,\n\n00:45.604 --> 01:04.333\n我們繼續來討論我們在過去審查促展條例的時候有一些爭議在當然那時候您都還不清楚當時那個爭議不過現在不義遺址條例這個草案同樣有發生一些盲點我想您一定有看到很多的專家學者或是其實有很多的委員其實都有呼籲轉型正義跟這個不義遺址的保存不能單純的就是在這個34年的8月15號到81年11月6號期間\n\n01:12.097 --> 01:39.454\n那是應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等那應該以1895年5月8號日本取得台灣主權作為開端那本來我是想問一下部長的看法但剛才我有聽到部長的答詢那您的答詢我剛剛一字一句的把它記錄下來您是這樣說的您說其實不管是針對34年到81年甚至於到這個日據時代以及甚至於您還提到清朝的時候這些您全部認同\n\n01:40.154 --> 01:43.619\n我剛是一字一句把它記下來的喔那只是現在這個條例草案我們討論是34年到81年所以你就是就這個部分比較具體的這個這個事件喔那你去做一個這個討論喔那我想這裡我要來請教部長喔\n\n01:56.396 --> 02:12.782\n您剛所謂說在34年到81年這段時間它是比較具體的那難道您剛自己所說的您所認同的在日據時代甚至於在更早以前的一些事件難道就不具體嗎我想請教一下部長您也是來自影視界的文化人賽德克巴萊您看過嗎他的電影我全部看過那這裡面講的是事實嗎\n\n02:19.194 --> 02:34.971\n應該是接近事實。接近事實,所以有不事實的地方?因為任何的考據、拍電影的…好,沒問題,我同意您一下要講的。那我認為啦,就是說在這個我們所謂的日據時代所謂的物色事件,我們看到不管是原住民的這些我們的朋友們,對於當時這個反抗日本的高壓統治,那發生了一些\n\n03:00.734 --> 03:14.923\n我們今天來這個審查不義遺址保存條例以及這個所謂的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上文化部是一個主責的機關那如果按照您剛剛所說您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年那我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括\n\n03:25.609 --> 03:38.039\n所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎?\n\n03:39.397 --> 03:55.662\n根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始\n\n03:57.943 --> 04:10.872\n當二二八事變到三十八年來之後開始三十八年的戒嚴他是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式部長我想你有點弄錯我的問題我重複一下我的問題\n\n04:13.994 --> 04:32.917\n我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論去做審查我覺得討論審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成我們想要達成的這個目標但今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎所以您剛剛也說您認為日據時代也是或者更早也是所以我才請教您您願不願意同不同意我們把這個時間擴大\n\n04:43.991 --> 05:04.120\n️我﹏在審這個案子的基礎下﹏我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是﹏我們這個案子當初一設定就是﹏定義在民國34年這段﹏不是,第一個齁﹏這個設定其實大家本來就有意見﹏那審查的時候本來就會提出來﹏第二個,您是主責機關啦﹏您都已經對這個事情有意見了﹏為什麼不能改?\n\n05:04.560 --> 05:20.854\n那我跟您講一下我的心情喔心情好心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個初轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場初轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的\n\n05:21.775 --> 05:21.915\n﹝請審查委員﹞\n\n05:37.751 --> 05:39.912\n您的心情啊,您找時間到我辦公室來分享一下,我很願意我挪時間來聽喔。那當然我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。\n\n05:52.896 --> 06:18.879\n但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例這個草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行這個審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下\n\n06:19.580 --> 06:20.621\n現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下\n\n06:45.782 --> 07:13.934\n但是有一些他是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟這個所有權益我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址但是這個公開的過程中我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址你不能用猜的啊因為財產不是你的啊所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀對對對那我是不是請這個執行單位報告一下\n\n07:17.819 --> 07:19.944\n我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的\n\n07:26.349 --> 07:55.564\n對外公告的。我想這樣子啦部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼\n\n07:57.073 --> 07:57.874\n我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。\n\n08:08.359 --> 08:31.760\n我們只能用勸導吧?只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私有人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎?\n\n08:32.944 --> 08:35.546\n我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中我們一定要去考慮到現在有很多限制現狀是什麼狀況如果是私人的財產的部分我們希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產飲食權\n\n08:56.740 --> 08:57.740\n我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.223,"end":4.444,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長。有請部長。萬委員你好。好,部長辛苦了。我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例,其實我們知道它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的。那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後,這些業務就像您今天報告的,"},{"start":31.152,"end":44.275,"text":" 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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":180.734,"end":194.923,"text":"我們今天來這個審查不義遺址保存條例以及這個所謂的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上文化部是一個主責的機關那如果按照您剛剛所說您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年那我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括"},{"start":205.609,"end":218.039,"text":"所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎?"},{"start":219.397,"end":235.662,"text":"根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始"},{"start":237.943,"end":250.872,"text":"當二二八事變到三十八年來之後開始三十八年的戒嚴他是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式部長我想你有點弄錯我的問題我重複一下我的問題"},{"start":253.994,"end":272.917,"text":"我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論去做審查我覺得討論審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成我們想要達成的這個目標但今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎所以您剛剛也說您認為日據時代也是或者更早也是所以我才請教您您願不願意同不同意我們把這個時間擴大"},{"start":283.991,"end":304.12,"text":" ️我﹏在審這個案子的基礎下﹏我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是﹏我們這個案子當初一設定就是﹏定義在民國34年這段﹏不是,第一個齁﹏這個設定其實大家本來就有意見﹏那審查的時候本來就會提出來﹏第二個,您是主責機關啦﹏您都已經對這個事情有意見了﹏為什麼不能改?"},{"start":304.56,"end":320.854,"text":"那我跟您講一下我的心情喔心情好心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個初轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場初轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的"},{"start":321.775,"end":321.915,"text":" ﹝請審查委員﹞"},{"start":337.751,"end":339.912,"text":"您的心情啊,您找時間到我辦公室來分享一下,我很願意我挪時間來聽喔。那當然我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。"},{"start":352.896,"end":378.879,"text":"但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例這個草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行這個審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下"},{"start":379.58,"end":380.621,"text":"現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下"},{"start":405.782,"end":433.934,"text":"但是有一些他是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟這個所有權益我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址但是這個公開的過程中我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址你不能用猜的啊因為財產不是你的啊所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀對對對那我是不是請這個執行單位報告一下"},{"start":437.819,"end":439.944,"text":"我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的"},{"start":446.349,"end":475.564,"text":"對外公告的。我想這樣子啦部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼"},{"start":477.073,"end":477.874,"text":"我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。"},{"start":488.359,"end":511.76,"text":"我們只能用勸導吧?只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私有人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎?"},{"start":512.944,"end":515.546,"text":"我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中我們一定要去考慮到現在有很多限制現狀是什麼狀況如果是私人的財產的部分我們希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產飲食權"},{"start":536.74,"end":537.74,"text":"我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時42分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：萬委員你好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長辛苦了，今天你一直提到這個不義遺址保存條例，我們知道其實它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的，其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後，這些業務就像您今天報告的，有些部分在各個部會裡面，您的部分其實就是文化部的不義遺址保存工作。我想我先請教一下，部長，您以前曾經說過：「文化是加法，不是減法」這句話，對嗎？"],["李部長遠：對啊！"],["萬委員美玲：好，那我們繼續來討論。我們在過去在審查促轉條例時有一些爭議，當然那時候您說您都還不清楚當時那個爭議，不過現在不義遺址條例的草案同樣有發生一些盲點，我想您一定有看到很多的專家、學者或是其實有很多的委員都有呼籲，就是轉型正義跟不義遺址的保存不能單純在34年8月15號到81年11月6號期間，應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等，應該以1895年5月8號日本取得臺灣主權作為開端。本來我是想問一下部長的看法，但剛才我有聽到部長答詢，我剛剛一字一句地把您的答詢記錄下來，您是這樣說的，您說其實不管是針對34年到81年，甚至於到日據時代，以及甚至您還提到清朝的時候，這些您全部認同，我剛剛是一字一句把它記下來的。只是現在這個條例草案，我們討論的是34年到81年，所以你只是就這個部分比較具體的事件去做個討論。","在這裡我要來請教部長，部長，您剛剛所謂34年到81年這段時間是比較具體的，難道您剛剛自己所說的，你所認同的在日據時代，甚至於更早以前的一些事件，難道就不具體嗎？我想請教一下，部長，您也是來自於影視界的文化人，賽德克巴萊，您看過嗎？"],["李部長遠：他的電影我全部看過。"],["萬委員美玲：好，這裡面講的是事實嗎？"],["李部長遠：應該是接近事實。"],["萬委員美玲：接近事實，所以有不事實的地方？"],["李部長遠：因為任何的考據，拍電影的人……"],["萬委員美玲：好，沒問題，我同意您等一下要講的，我認為在我們所謂的日據時代時有霧社事件，我們看到不管是原住民朋友們對於當時反抗日本的高壓統治，發生了一些讓大家遺憾的事情或慰安婦，這兩件事情難道不夠具體嗎？所以您剛剛的回答，我覺得其實可能有不完整的地方、有不完備的地方，我必須要提出來糾正。你不能講說這個東西在34年到81年是比較具體的，日據時代這些事件難道都不具體了嗎？","我們回過頭來又再看，今天我們來審查不義遺址保存條例以及所謂不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部，文化部是一個主責機關，如果按照您剛剛所說的，你非常同意，只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年，我想請教部長，我們是主責機關，在審查的時候，您願不願意把這個期間擴大？更完整來包括所有我們應該去討論的轉型正義所包含的期間，像您所說的，可能日據時代也把它加入，或者你有更好的想法把它擴大，我們來真正的尊重歷史，達到轉型正義，您同意嗎？"],["李部長遠：根據你的問題，我有兩個回答，一個就是剛剛講到具體，所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代，對原住民的破壞是具體，但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來臺灣開始，到了發生二二八事件，到38年來之後，開始38年的戒嚴，它是一個漫長的、全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的統治方式。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我想你有點弄錯我的問題。"],["李部長遠：我現在講……我講具體的就是說……"],["萬委員美玲：我重複一下我的問題，我想您要提到34年、81年的這個部分，其實我沒有意見，我們要在這個期間去做討論、去做審查，我覺得討論、審查的過程當中，大家還可以有不同意見的表述，這是對歷史的看法跟尊重，跟我們想要完成、我們想要達成的目標。但現在討論的是說，我們這個期間這樣對嗎？所以您剛剛也說，您認為其實日據時代也是，或者更早也是，所以我才請教您，您願不願意、同不同意我們把這個時間擴大？"],["李部長遠：我在審這個案子的基礎下，我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是，我們這個案子當初一設定就是定義在民國34年這一段……"],["萬委員美玲：不是，第一個、這個設定其實大家本來就有意見，審查的時候本來就會提出來；第二個、您是主責機關，您都已經對這個時間有意見了，為什麼不能改？"],["李部長遠：那我跟你講一下我的心情。"],["萬委員美玲：心情？好。"],["李部長遠：心情。"],["萬委員美玲：因為今天召委給的時間很有限，你的心情可以短一點點。"],["李部長遠：可是我的心情很重要，因為我現在是文化部長啊！"],["萬委員美玲：好，你請說。"],["李部長遠：其實在促轉會的過程中，我沒有參加過任何一場促轉會，就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的心情面對這些事情，就是說到底不義遺址也好、到底誰迫害誰也好、到底歷史的背景是什麼也好，我是懷著非常慎重的心情面對，今天在審查這個條例的時候，是回到法律條文而已，至於個人情感……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，我想這樣子，您的心情你找時間到我辦公室來分享一下，我很願意挪時間來聽。當然我今天要提出幾個問題，我覺得既然您也認為這個時間點其實是可以再擴大，我是建議您其實可以去考慮是不是把它擴大，但是我們今天來討論，你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例草案第四條當中有規範主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料，並進行審議跟公告。根據文化部的統計，目前不義遺址42處，這是過去促轉會公告，但是我們還有潛在，總共大概64處，我想請教一下什麼叫潛在？目前還沒有經過審議，怎麼認定的？您簡述一下。"],["李部長遠：潛在就是說你對於它算不算是不義遺址還要經過一個比較詳細的調查跟審定，因為它在歷史的時候、發生這些事情的時候……"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以現在還沒有認定嘛！只是我們還要再繼續審議對不對？"],["李部長遠：對，潛在有可能是，要經過認定。"],["萬委員美玲：好，接下來我們再來討論，在草案第五條第二項規定說，不義遺址的個案資料，主管機關應該要以網路或其他方式公開。現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下，但是有一些其實是私人的產權，你這樣公告出來會影響隱私權跟所有權人的權益。"],["李部長遠：我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址，但是在公開的過程中，我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，你不能用猜的啊！因為財產不是你的，所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀！"],["李部長遠：對對對，我是不是請執行單位報告一下？"],["萬委員美玲：可以。召委等下可能要多給我30秒，你看他們這樣耽擱時間。"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們目前有公告的是已經審定，當時促轉會已經審定的對外公告的。"],["萬委員美玲：我想這樣子啦！部長，我覺得關於當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護，我希望你再去了解一下，不要用心情判斷這件事情，其實我們也有在講，主管機關為保護跟審議不義遺址，你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查，不過要尊重他的意願，用適當的方式為之。部長，我再請教您一下怎麼尊重，適當方式是什麼？"],["李部長遠：就是剛剛還是回到私人有私人的產權嘛！我們不能夠用強制的方式，所謂適當就是……"],["萬委員美玲：我知道，所以你要用什麼方式？我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。"],["李部長遠：我們只能用勸導吧！"],["萬委員美玲：只能用勸導？好，如果說我們只能勸導，今天部長在這邊講，那我把它記下來了。最後我想我要特別提一下，如果我們有一些強制的行為等等，我們把私人的不義遺址列為個案，這個行為是行政處分嘛！按照您剛剛講的是說這個私有人是有權利來拒絕的是嗎？"],["李部長遠：是啊，當然是。"],["萬委員美玲：好，他是有權利來拒絕的？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["萬委員美玲：很好，我想今天特別提到很多私人財產的部分，我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中，我們一定要去考慮到，現在有很多現址現狀是什麼狀況，如果是私人財產的部分，我們希望不要用維護不義遺址的名義，事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產跟隱私權，好不好？我想這些都要去注意一下，我想會後非常歡迎就這個議題，部長不論是要再跟我討論法條或是分享心情都歡迎可以跟我辦公室約時間。"],["李部長遠：我可以跟你見面講我3個舅舅怎麼樣被迫害的故事。"],["萬委員美玲：我想被迫害的故事其實非常多，但我們要正視整個歷史的全貌，不是只有設定在某一個範圍內，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}