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00:00:44,752\n另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。\n\n4\n00:00:56,425 --> 00:01:01,627\n此外,中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得,像呼吸一樣的自然。但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分,我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的,我們簡略的真的來回顧一下。\n\n5\n00:01:25,018 --> 00:01:47,240\n二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上\n\n6\n00:01:49,282 --> 00:02:14,421\n是被處決那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代\n\n7\n00:02:14,980 --> 00:02:23,443\n我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分\n\n8\n00:02:32,346 --> 00:02:44,038\n但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧\n\n9\n00:02:47,130 --> 00:02:49,992\n不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。那其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。那不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。\n\n10\n00:03:13,492 --> 00:03:17,655\n當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧\n\n11\n00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:54,759\n我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在\n\n12\n00:03:59,682 --> 00:04:17,402\n一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎這一點我想請陳辦大會報告一下好\n\n13\n00:04:21,144 --> 00:04:42,011\n我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權管也做了很多的一些推廣的活動\n\n14\n00:04:43,572 --> 00:05:07,911\n再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業都會參著他們意見加速的進行好,那我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關\n\n15\n00:05:08,792 --> 00:05:23,161\n那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何\n\n16\n00:05:42,779 --> 00:05:57,155\n我剛剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽\n\n17\n00:06:02,961 --> 00:06:23,509\n我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域\n\n18\n00:06:25,650 --> 00:06:44,780\n來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同。那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊\n\n19\n00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:46,761\n：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會\n\n20\n00:07:10,461 --> 00:07:11,202\n不義遺址保存條例草案案\n\n21\n00:07:29,471 --> 00:07:53,802\n有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。\n\n22\n00:07:55,703 --> 00:08:19,677\n還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告\n\n23\n00:08:21,078 --> 00:08:44,947\n謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家。我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。謝謝。謝謝郭委員。\n\n24\n00:08:47,275 --> 00:08:48,195\n有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。有請部長跟館長。\n\n25\n00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:33,279\n財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。\n\n26\n00:09:38,344 --> 00:10:06,390\n今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿50萬,現在他直接砍一半\n\n27\n00:10:07,716 --> 00:10:21,441\n所以如果說我們今天在講不義遺址他需要做一些保存啊他需要做一些推廣啊可是我們的金額不管是整體的補助經費就是下降案件也下降那到底要如何來去執行呢我想請教就是說\n\n28\n00:10:22,631 --> 00:10:38,114\n我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t11339\t委員質詢。主席好,有請部長。委員好。\n21665\t40348\t部長早安。我想實質今日台灣已經是一個非常自由民主的一個國家了。英國的經濟學人其實他們在二月的時候其實特別在公布這個2023年全球167個國家台灣全球排名第十是亞洲第一\n41649\t44752\t另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。\n56425\t61627\t此外,中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得,像呼吸一樣的自然。但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分,我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的,我們簡略的真的來回顧一下。\n85018\t107240\t二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上\n109282\t134421\t是被處決那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代\n134980\t143443\t我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分\n152346\t164038\t但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧\n167130\t169992\t不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。那其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。那不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。\n193492\t197655\t當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧\n220970\t234759\t我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在\n239682\t257402\t一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎這一點我想請陳辦大會報告一下好\n261144\t282011\t我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權管也做了很多的一些推廣的活動\n283572\t307911\t再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業都會參著他們意見加速的進行好,那我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關\n308792\t323161\t那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何\n325452\t342278\t﹏﹏﹏\n342779\t357155\t我剛剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽\n362961\t383509\t我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域\n385650\t404780\t來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同。那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊\n405520\t406761\t：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會\n430461\t431202\t不義遺址保存條例草案案\n449471\t473802\t有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。\n475703\t499677\t還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告\n501078\t524947\t謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家。我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。謝謝。謝謝郭委員。\n527275\t528195\t有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。有請部長跟館長。\n552160\t573279\t財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。\n578344\t606390\t今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿50萬,現在他直接砍一半\n607716\t621441\t所以如果說我們今天在講不義遺址他需要做一些保存啊他需要做一些推廣啊可是我們的金額不管是整體的補助經費就是下降案件也下降那到底要如何來去執行呢我想請教就是說\n622631\t638114\t我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了\n","txt":"委員質詢。主席好,有請部長。委員好。\n部長早安。我想實質今日台灣已經是一個非常自由民主的一個國家了。英國的經濟學人其實他們在二月的時候其實特別在公布這個2023年全球167個國家台灣全球排名第十是亞洲第一\n另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。\n此外,中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得,像呼吸一樣的自然。但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分,我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的,我們簡略的真的來回顧一下。\n二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上\n是被處決那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代\n我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分\n但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧\n不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。那其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。那不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。\n當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧\n我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在\n一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎這一點我想請陳辦大會報告一下好\n我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權管也做了很多的一些推廣的活動\n再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業都會參著他們意見加速的進行好,那我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關\n那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何\n﹏﹏﹏\n我剛剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽\n我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域\n來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同。那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊\n：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會\n不義遺址保存條例草案案\n有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。\n還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告\n謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家。我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。謝謝。謝謝郭委員。\n有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。有請部長跟館長。\n財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。\n今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿50萬,現在他直接砍一半\n所以如果說我們今天在講不義遺址他需要做一些保存啊他需要做一些推廣啊可是我們的金額不管是整體的補助經費就是下降案件也下降那到底要如何來去執行呢我想請教就是說\n我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:11.339\n委員質詢。主席好,有請部長。委員好。\n\n00:21.665 --> 00:40.348\n部長早安。我想實質今日台灣已經是一個非常自由民主的一個國家了。英國的經濟學人其實他們在二月的時候其實特別在公布這個2023年全球167個國家台灣全球排名第十是亞洲第一\n\n00:41.649 --> 00:44.752\n另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。\n\n00:56.425 --> 01:01.627\n此外,中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得,像呼吸一樣的自然。但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分,我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的,我們簡略的真的來回顧一下。\n\n01:25.018 --> 01:47.240\n二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上\n\n01:49.282 --> 02:14.421\n是被處決那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代\n\n02:14.980 --> 02:23.443\n我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分\n\n02:32.346 --> 02:44.038\n但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧\n\n02:47.130 --> 02:49.992\n不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。那其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。那不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。\n\n03:13.492 --> 03:17.655\n當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧\n\n03:40.970 --> 03:54.759\n我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在\n\n03:59.682 --> 04:17.402\n一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎這一點我想請陳辦大會報告一下好\n\n04:21.144 --> 04:42.011\n我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權管也做了很多的一些推廣的活動\n\n04:43.572 --> 05:07.911\n再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業都會參著他們意見加速的進行好,那我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關\n\n05:08.792 --> 05:23.161\n那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何\n\n05:42.779 --> 05:57.155\n我剛剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽\n\n06:02.961 --> 06:23.509\n我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域\n\n06:25.650 --> 06:44.780\n來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同。那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊\n\n06:45.520 --> 06:46.761\n：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會\n\n07:10.461 --> 07:11.202\n不義遺址保存條例草案案\n\n07:29.471 --> 07:53.802\n有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。\n\n07:55.703 --> 08:19.677\n還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告\n\n08:21.078 --> 08:44.947\n謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家。我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。謝謝。謝謝郭委員。\n\n08:47.275 --> 08:48.195\n有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。有請部長跟館長。\n\n09:12.160 --> 09:33.279\n財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。\n\n09:38.344 --> 10:06.390\n今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿50萬,現在他直接砍一半\n\n10:07.716 --> 10:21.441\n所以如果說我們今天在講不義遺址他需要做一些保存啊他需要做一些推廣啊可是我們的金額不管是整體的補助經費就是下降案件也下降那到底要如何來去執行呢我想請教就是說\n\n10:22.631 --> 10:38.114\n我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":11.339,"text":"委員質詢。主席好,有請部長。委員好。"},{"start":21.665,"end":40.348,"text":"部長早安。我想實質今日台灣已經是一個非常自由民主的一個國家了。英國的經濟學人其實他們在二月的時候其實特別在公布這個2023年全球167個國家台灣全球排名第十是亞洲第一"},{"start":41.649,"end":44.752,"text":"另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。"},{"start":56.425,"end":61.627,"text":"此外,中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得,像呼吸一樣的自然。但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分,我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的,我們簡略的真的來回顧一下。"},{"start":85.018,"end":107.24,"text":"二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上"},{"start":109.282,"end":134.421,"text":"是被處決那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代"},{"start":134.98,"end":143.443,"text":"我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分"},{"start":152.346,"end":164.038,"text":"但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧"},{"start":167.13,"end":169.992,"text":"不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。那其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。那不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。"},{"start":193.492,"end":197.655,"text":"當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧"},{"start":220.97,"end":234.759,"text":"我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在"},{"start":239.682,"end":257.402,"text":"一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎這一點我想請陳辦大會報告一下好"},{"start":261.144,"end":282.011,"text":"我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權管也做了很多的一些推廣的活動"},{"start":283.572,"end":307.911,"text":"再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業都會參著他們意見加速的進行好,那我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關"},{"start":308.792,"end":323.161,"text":"那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何"},{"start":325.452,"end":342.278,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":342.779,"end":357.155,"text":"我剛剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽"},{"start":362.961,"end":383.509,"text":"我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域"},{"start":385.65,"end":404.78,"text":"來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同。那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊"},{"start":405.52,"end":406.761,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":430.461,"end":431.202,"text":"不義遺址保存條例草案案"},{"start":449.471,"end":473.802,"text":"有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。"},{"start":475.703,"end":499.677,"text":"還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告"},{"start":501.078,"end":524.947,"text":"謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家。我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。謝謝。謝謝郭委員。"},{"start":527.275,"end":528.195,"text":"有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。有請部長跟館長。"},{"start":552.16,"end":573.279,"text":"財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。"},{"start":578.344,"end":606.39,"text":"今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿50萬,現在他直接砍一半"},{"start":607.716,"end":621.441,"text":"所以如果說我們今天在講不義遺址他需要做一些保存啊他需要做一些推廣啊可是我們的金額不管是整體的補助經費就是下降案件也下降那到底要如何來去執行呢我想請教就是說"},{"start":622.631,"end":638.114,"text":"我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時51分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安。我想時至今日臺灣已經是一個非常自由民主的國家了，英國的經濟學人在2月的時候其實特別公布2023年，全球167個國家，臺灣全球排名第十，是亞洲第一。另外國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度報告，臺灣名列前茅，是自由的國家，我們是亞洲第二，僅次於日本，相對來講，中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得臺灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像唾手可得，像呼吸一樣自然，但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論不義遺址的部分，我們可能前面先把臺灣民主自由是怎麼過來的，我們簡略地真的來回顧一下啦！二二八事件，1947年，其實當時統計被殺、被屠害的人民，就是平民，從2,000到2萬5,000人之間，之後的白色恐怖當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕，甚至有1,200人以上是被處決，包含我自己的阿公那一輩的親戚朋友，曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔，一排人跪著，手被鐵絲串著，一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決，這個其實都是我們這一代沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的事件。我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講，就是說不義遺址這個名稱，或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的日治時代的部分，但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下，既然是不義遺址，我們是把它定義為就是在二二八事件還有臺灣的白色恐怖的這個時期，對吧？"],["李部長遠：我是覺得從中華民國民國34年到臺灣的這個時間算起。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，其實它當年講的就是在黨國體制下，國民黨政府是如何侵害人權，不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點，包含刑求、包含審判、包含行刑的地方，當然2017年其實我們在提所謂的轉型正義的時候，我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生地點來做一個盤點，這個叫做不義遺址，我想唯有誠實地面對歷史，我們臺灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由、民主、健康的國家，我想部長應該也同意吧？"],["李部長遠：當然同意。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們知道其實全臺灣目前已經審定公告有42處的不義遺址，其中跟二二八事件相關的有25處，白色恐怖的事件大概將近有17處，其餘預計64處的潛在不義遺址的公告115年可能會完成，就是完成整個所有的公告，相關作業的規範還有人力，我們是不是有逐步地到位，目前為止部長所掌握的盤點進度大概是如何，可以跟我們報告一下嗎？"],["李部長遠：這一點我想請承辦單位報告一下。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["陳局長濟民：我們現在對於潛在的不義遺址，在專法還沒有通過之前，我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址現勘，然後預先討論它的個案資料，等到專法通過之後，我們會加速審議公告的作業；另外一個，我們人權館也做了很多的推廣活動；再來，我們也在審議的過程當中諮詢了很多學者專家的意見，未來我們的推廣作業也都會參酌他們的意見加速進行。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想要怎麼樣來保存、怎麼樣來活化、怎麼樣運用這樣子的不義遺址成為我們歷史的一個教材，其實真的也非常重要。但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的態度相關，這個部分我們的部會跟地方政府有沒有取得一些共識，或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善地對話，取得共識，然後來做不義遺址保存的政策？目前跟地方政府的溝通狀況如何？"],["陳局長濟民：我們想我們會就個案來看，因為目前這個法的主管機關只有文化部，都是文化部來，當然這裡會涉及到一些地方的相關事務，那我們會個案來協調。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，關於個案的協調，如果有一些新的進展，也麻煩提供給我們辦公室，可以嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我剛剛特別有提到，就是針對不義遺址的保存活化的方式，其實第十條有特別明定，我們將設置一些歷史的標誌，或者是侵害人權事件的解說，甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址線上3D環景的導覽。我記得其實在112年到114年，其實我們講說文化要向下扎根，所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算，大概是2.45億，我想公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去，到其他相關的文化場域來做一些來對自己的歷史或者是對自己的本土文化的認同，我想在這個部分，文化部有沒有把人權的議題納入一些課綱，或者是現在已經有納入課綱，像我知道高雄大學校長特別率隊，做了一個類似有點像線上遊戲的方式，納入了一個課綱，在9月份推出線上說明的時候其實也獲得很多人的好評，就是我們是以那個故事性的主角，是1949年海軍的白色恐怖案來做這樣的主題，但是這個是線上，把它拉到了實際的不義遺址的部分，我們在文化往下扎根的部分，不是也能夠讓很多學生了解自己本身在不管是戶外的教學上對臺灣本土的認同，我們在不義遺址的這個部分有沒有相關的一些規劃？"],["李部長遠：有，這個部分反而是我們人權館做最多的，我們設計過好幾套教材，然後讓學校來借，有些教材是可以借半年、一年；然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽，也請學校的學生來參觀，也有當時真正的受害者，譬如說陳列，他現場也是一個導覽員；然後還有一個校園列車開到校園去；還有辦人權影展等等，我來之後我還希望人權影展可以辦得更大型，就讓我們的人權館有一個比較標的性的活動，就是大型的人權影展等等，我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極，我事後可以給你一個很完整的報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。我想不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存，跟不義遺址提醒我們臺灣民主歷史的、本土的的一個進程，對我們來講，其實誠實的面對歷史，我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家，我想這個也是我們要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：謝謝郭委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}