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\"姆范森創辦人也講這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"姆\", \"start\": 232.579, \"end\": 232.7, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"范\", \"start\": 232.7, \"end\": 232.88, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"森\", \"start\": 232.88, \"end\": 233.4, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 233.4, \"end\": 233.5, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 233.5, \"end\": 234.502, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 234.502, \"end\": 234.662, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 234.662, \"end\": 235.162, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 235.162, \"end\": 235.463, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 235.463, \"end\": 235.583, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 235.583, \"end\": 236.364, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"台\", 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{\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 240.508, \"end\": 241.149, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 241.149, \"end\": 241.269, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 241.269, \"end\": 241.389, \"score\": 0.585}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 241.389, \"end\": 241.509, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 241.509, \"end\": 241.549, \"score\": 0.352}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 241.549, \"end\": 241.93, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 241.93, \"end\": 242.03, \"score\": 0.621}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 242.03, \"end\": 242.05, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 242.05, \"end\": 242.27, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 242.27, \"end\": 242.55, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 242.55, \"end\": 242.671, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 242.671, \"end\": 242.691, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 242.691, \"end\": 242.751, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 242.751, \"end\": 242.771, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 242.771, \"end\": 242.831, \"score\": 0.4}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 242.831, \"end\": 242.851, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 242.851, \"end\": 243.011, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 243.011, \"end\": 243.031, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 243.031, \"end\": 243.131, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 243.131, \"end\": 243.351, \"score\": 0.599}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 243.351, \"end\": 243.531, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 243.531, \"end\": 243.551, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 243.551, \"end\": 243.571, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 243.571, \"end\": 243.632, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 243.632, \"end\": 243.672, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 243.672, \"end\": 243.692, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 243.692, \"end\": 243.792, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 243.792, \"end\": 243.892, \"score\": 0.414}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 243.892, \"end\": 244.072, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 244.072, \"end\": 244.092, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 244.092, \"end\": 244.252, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 244.252, \"end\": 244.332, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 244.332, \"end\": 244.352, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 251.76, \"end\": 272.718, \"text\": \"發電的結構發電發過電的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就231度了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 251.76, \"end\": 253.081, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 253.081, \"end\": 253.682, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 253.682, \"end\": 254.903, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 254.903, \"end\": 255.363, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"佔\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 255.363, \"end\": 255.804, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 255.804, \"end\": 255.944, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"陽\", \"start\": 255.944, \"end\": 256.104, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 256.104, 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{\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 258.186, \"end\": 258.586, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 258.586, \"end\": 258.806, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"佔\"}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 258.806, \"end\": 258.926, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 258.926, \"end\": 259.046, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 259.046, \"end\": 259.267, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 259.267, \"end\": 259.487, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 259.487, \"end\": 259.607, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 259.607, \"end\": 259.627, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 259.627, \"end\": 259.807, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 259.807, \"end\": 260.087, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 260.087, \"end\": 260.788, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 260.788, \"end\": 261.088, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 261.088, \"end\": 261.208, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 261.208, \"end\": 261.308, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 261.308, \"end\": 261.509, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 261.509, \"end\": 261.649, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 261.649, \"end\": 261.989, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 261.989, \"end\": 262.109, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 262.109, \"end\": 262.67, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 262.67, \"end\": 262.93, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 262.93, \"end\": 263.19, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 263.19, \"end\": 263.69, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 263.69, \"end\": 263.83, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 263.83, \"end\": 264.171, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 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\"看\", \"start\": 269.335, \"end\": 269.475, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 269.475, \"end\": 269.715, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 269.715, \"end\": 269.936, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 269.936, \"end\": 270.056, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 270.056, \"end\": 270.076, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 270.076, \"end\": 270.156, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 270.156, \"end\": 270.316, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 270.316, \"end\": 270.336, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 270.336, \"end\": 270.436, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 270.436, \"end\": 270.936, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 270.936, \"end\": 271.197, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 271.197, \"end\": 271.717, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", 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{\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 272.678, \"end\": 272.698, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 272.698, \"end\": 272.718, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 278.964, \"end\": 285.042, \"text\": \"換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裡生出綠電出來?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"換\"}, {\"word\": \"句\", \"start\": 278.964, \"end\": 279.285, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 279.285, \"end\": 279.445, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 279.445, \"end\": 279.646, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 279.646, \"end\": 279.806, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 279.806, \"end\": 280.167, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 280.167, \"end\": 280.629, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 280.629, \"end\": 280.889, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 280.889, \"end\": 281.15, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 281.15, \"end\": 281.351, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 281.351, \"end\": 281.692, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 281.692, \"end\": 281.832, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 281.832, \"end\": 282.494, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 282.494, \"end\": 282.955, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 282.955, \"end\": 283.096, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"剩\", \"start\": 283.096, \"end\": 283.256, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 283.256, \"end\": 283.617, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 283.617, \"end\": 283.978, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 283.978, \"end\": 284.079, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 284.079, \"end\": 284.239, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 284.239, \"end\": 284.36, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 284.36, \"end\": 284.44, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 284.44, \"end\": 284.58, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 284.58, \"end\": 284.701, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 284.701, \"end\": 285.022, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 285.022, \"end\": 285.042, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 286.567, \"end\": 311.917, \"text\": \"綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 286.567, \"end\": 287.147, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 287.147, \"end\": 287.347, \"score\": 1.0}, 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\"start\": 533.22, \"end\": 533.781, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 533.781, \"end\": 533.901, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 533.901, \"end\": 534.362, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 534.362, \"end\": 534.382, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,097 --> 00:00:00,277\n經濟部部長\n\n2\n00:00:24,531 --> 00:00:25,472\n您這個問題是非常好\n\n3\n00:00:47,779 --> 00:01:14,121\n我們可以考慮,大眾用電是不是民生用電?是嗎?目前是不是?我們可以來跟這個電價審議委員討論這個命題。好,謝謝部長,因為其實這一次這個問題我在兩個禮拜前就先問了說貴部這個電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的這個影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論。但是直到這個昨天晚上,我是問有沒有而已,我還沒有問內容啊。\n\n4\n00:01:14,821 --> 00:01:38,466\n昨天晚上來回應我所以導致我今天必須來問你嘛如果他們早點回應我的話我今天就不會來問你了好不好你們目前當然就回應完了所以我希望經濟部是一個應該是一個全台灣最有效率理論上應該是有最有效率的部會不要拖這麼久才回那好像一樣回到大眾運輸因為我看這個昨天晚上回應給我們的這文件裡面提到這個台鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸電價可能會調漲因為他們屬於\n\n5\n00:01:40,947 --> 00:01:41,087\n報告委員．\n\n6\n00:02:07,984 --> 00:02:25,123\n我們的公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的那就整個行政院來討論這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼這個也是在院裡面有討論就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼\n\n7\n00:02:27,886 --> 00:02:45,462\n這是一種使用者付費的反應那他跟一般的商業比方說我們零售的小吃攤等等他的費率是不會受政府管制這完全是兩件事情所以要跟委員報告是他在公用性上面是足夠的\n\n8\n00:02:46,443 --> 00:02:56,128\n但某種程度上它的費率是可以被政府管控的所以最重要是預算由目的是事業主管機關來考慮我要提醒就是說因為如果把它列為電價上漲的部分到最後還是靠政府補貼那也有可能後續也有討論在交通委員會那邊也討論到底不要漲價我要提的是說如果漲價之後很多人\n\n9\n00:03:06,773 --> 00:03:24,597\n尤其是坐捷運坐火車的人他如果漲價了他寧願回去騎機車那跟整個國家的這個減碳希望說大家搭乘大眾運輸的這個邏輯或想要被盜取所以這特別提出來提醒一下好那接下來換下一個昨天我想大家也看到說AIT這個處長講說這個臺灣會因為這個綠電水不足來出走那我想這個我們的院長馬上出來幫經濟部講話說不會臺灣的電一定夠用\n\n10\n00:03:33,579 --> 00:03:33,719\n台灣綠電的這個\n\n11\n00:03:52,579 --> 00:04:04,352\n姆范森創辦人也講這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告\n\n12\n00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:32,718\n發電的結構發電發過電的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就231度了\n\n13\n00:04:38,964 --> 00:04:45,042\n換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裡生出綠電出來?\n\n14\n00:04:46,567 --> 00:05:11,917\n綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係\n\n15\n00:05:14,855 --> 00:05:24,520\n就是說每一年每個月做多少,不會。它是我同時下去做,然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的。所以這個創電的時間不一樣。\n\n16\n00:05:29,042 --> 00:05:57,220\n他的量不一樣所以得到的結果會不一樣所以沒有線性關係所以你的16的計算不是用他每年度的發電發購電量結果是用某一天他曾經達到16%就認為我們的綠電有16%嗎我是不是請這個他們專家跟你報告一下好沒關係我們時間因為我是外委會時間比較少本來部長後面後續提供書面包給我你們那個16到底怎麼算出來了那回到這個電的問題我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠要自己讓它還品的部分\n\n17\n00:05:58,591 --> 00:06:10,795\n現階段10部機組就550萬千瓦如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組蓋到6部燃氣機組之後它的這個發電量已經超過了現在的發電量6部燃氣機組這是你們的目標蓋6部燃氣機組\n\n18\n00:06:20,093 --> 00:06:45,772\n現有的燃煤機組過去承諾要拆掉那也的確要拆了4座你還會留6座燃煤機組給我部長昨天在總之選的時候我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉那回到問題啦如果電夠用的話第一個為什麼要蓋新的那如果蓋新的如果夠用而且還更多的舊的為什麼不能拆掉那個碳的問題啦啊碳的問題我知道啊我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嗎解決碳的問題啊\n\n19\n00:06:47,577 --> 00:06:48,017\n我們就看環評結果啊\n\n20\n00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:17,836\n報告委員現在的量不是在未來會一樣的\n\n21\n00:07:36,482 --> 00:08:02,536\n未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展繁榮用更多的電所以我就是要把這個燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大台中地區大家都能夠幸福快樂地用電所以我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去將來我們的綠電如果大家更支持的話我知道大家可以用電\n\n22\n00:08:05,538 --> 00:08:12,901\n主席對不起,最後一句話,最後一段話而已。現有的燃煤機組,10部就550萬千瓦。你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後,再加上現的燃氣機組,你是810萬千瓦。\n\n23\n00:08:20,632 --> 00:08:20,972\n我們的目標是一樣的\n\n24\n00:08:45,083 --> 00:08:54,382\n我們的目標是一樣的,代表我們的方向也是一樣的。所以你願意拆掉南北基礎?我沒有說不拆掉啊。確定喔?好。部長謝謝。謝謝。主席謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n97\t277\t經濟部部長\n24531\t25472\t您這個問題是非常好\n47779\t74121\t我們可以考慮,大眾用電是不是民生用電?是嗎?目前是不是?我們可以來跟這個電價審議委員討論這個命題。好,謝謝部長,因為其實這一次這個問題我在兩個禮拜前就先問了說貴部這個電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的這個影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論。但是直到這個昨天晚上,我是問有沒有而已,我還沒有問內容啊。\n74821\t98466\t昨天晚上來回應我所以導致我今天必須來問你嘛如果他們早點回應我的話我今天就不會來問你了好不好你們目前當然就回應完了所以我希望經濟部是一個應該是一個全台灣最有效率理論上應該是有最有效率的部會不要拖這麼久才回那好像一樣回到大眾運輸因為我看這個昨天晚上回應給我們的這文件裡面提到這個台鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸電價可能會調漲因為他們屬於\n100947\t101087\t報告委員．\n127984\t145123\t我們的公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的那就整個行政院來討論這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼這個也是在院裡面有討論就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼\n147886\t165462\t這是一種使用者付費的反應那他跟一般的商業比方說我們零售的小吃攤等等他的費率是不會受政府管制這完全是兩件事情所以要跟委員報告是他在公用性上面是足夠的\n166443\t176128\t但某種程度上它的費率是可以被政府管控的所以最重要是預算由目的是事業主管機關來考慮我要提醒就是說因為如果把它列為電價上漲的部分到最後還是靠政府補貼那也有可能後續也有討論在交通委員會那邊也討論到底不要漲價我要提的是說如果漲價之後很多人\n186773\t204597\t尤其是坐捷運坐火車的人他如果漲價了他寧願回去騎機車那跟整個國家的這個減碳希望說大家搭乘大眾運輸的這個邏輯或想要被盜取所以這特別提出來提醒一下好那接下來換下一個昨天我想大家也看到說AIT這個處長講說這個臺灣會因為這個綠電水不足來出走那我想這個我們的院長馬上出來幫經濟部講話說不會臺灣的電一定夠用\n213579\t213719\t台灣綠電的這個\n232579\t244352\t姆范森創辦人也講這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告\n251760\t272718\t發電的結構發電發過電的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就231度了\n278964\t285042\t換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裡生出綠電出來?\n286567\t311917\t綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係\n314855\t324520\t就是說每一年每個月做多少,不會。它是我同時下去做,然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的。所以這個創電的時間不一樣。\n329042\t357220\t他的量不一樣所以得到的結果會不一樣所以沒有線性關係所以你的16的計算不是用他每年度的發電發購電量結果是用某一天他曾經達到16%就認為我們的綠電有16%嗎我是不是請這個他們專家跟你報告一下好沒關係我們時間因為我是外委會時間比較少本來部長後面後續提供書面包給我你們那個16到底怎麼算出來了那回到這個電的問題我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠要自己讓它還品的部分\n358591\t370795\t現階段10部機組就550萬千瓦如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組蓋到6部燃氣機組之後它的這個發電量已經超過了現在的發電量6部燃氣機組這是你們的目標蓋6部燃氣機組\n380093\t405772\t現有的燃煤機組過去承諾要拆掉那也的確要拆了4座你還會留6座燃煤機組給我部長昨天在總之選的時候我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉那回到問題啦如果電夠用的話第一個為什麼要蓋新的那如果蓋新的如果夠用而且還更多的舊的為什麼不能拆掉那個碳的問題啦啊碳的問題我知道啊我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嗎解決碳的問題啊\n407577\t408017\t我們就看環評結果啊\n437076\t437836\t報告委員現在的量不是在未來會一樣的\n456482\t482536\t未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展繁榮用更多的電所以我就是要把這個燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大台中地區大家都能夠幸福快樂地用電所以我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去將來我們的綠電如果大家更支持的話我知道大家可以用電\n485538\t492901\t主席對不起,最後一句話,最後一段話而已。現有的燃煤機組,10部就550萬千瓦。你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後,再加上現的燃氣機組,你是810萬千瓦。\n500632\t500972\t我們的目標是一樣的\n525083\t534382\t我們的目標是一樣的,代表我們的方向也是一樣的。所以你願意拆掉南北基礎?我沒有說不拆掉啊。確定喔?好。部長謝謝。謝謝。主席謝謝。\n","txt":"經濟部部長\n您這個問題是非常好\n我們可以考慮,大眾用電是不是民生用電?是嗎?目前是不是?我們可以來跟這個電價審議委員討論這個命題。好,謝謝部長,因為其實這一次這個問題我在兩個禮拜前就先問了說貴部這個電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的這個影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論。但是直到這個昨天晚上,我是問有沒有而已,我還沒有問內容啊。\n昨天晚上來回應我所以導致我今天必須來問你嘛如果他們早點回應我的話我今天就不會來問你了好不好你們目前當然就回應完了所以我希望經濟部是一個應該是一個全台灣最有效率理論上應該是有最有效率的部會不要拖這麼久才回那好像一樣回到大眾運輸因為我看這個昨天晚上回應給我們的這文件裡面提到這個台鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸電價可能會調漲因為他們屬於\n報告委員．\n我們的公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的那就整個行政院來討論這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼這個也是在院裡面有討論就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼\n這是一種使用者付費的反應那他跟一般的商業比方說我們零售的小吃攤等等他的費率是不會受政府管制這完全是兩件事情所以要跟委員報告是他在公用性上面是足夠的\n但某種程度上它的費率是可以被政府管控的所以最重要是預算由目的是事業主管機關來考慮我要提醒就是說因為如果把它列為電價上漲的部分到最後還是靠政府補貼那也有可能後續也有討論在交通委員會那邊也討論到底不要漲價我要提的是說如果漲價之後很多人\n尤其是坐捷運坐火車的人他如果漲價了他寧願回去騎機車那跟整個國家的這個減碳希望說大家搭乘大眾運輸的這個邏輯或想要被盜取所以這特別提出來提醒一下好那接下來換下一個昨天我想大家也看到說AIT這個處長講說這個臺灣會因為這個綠電水不足來出走那我想這個我們的院長馬上出來幫經濟部講話說不會臺灣的電一定夠用\n台灣綠電的這個\n姆范森創辦人也講這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告\n發電的結構發電發過電的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就231度了\n換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裡生出綠電出來?\n綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係\n就是說每一年每個月做多少,不會。它是我同時下去做,然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的。所以這個創電的時間不一樣。\n他的量不一樣所以得到的結果會不一樣所以沒有線性關係所以你的16的計算不是用他每年度的發電發購電量結果是用某一天他曾經達到16%就認為我們的綠電有16%嗎我是不是請這個他們專家跟你報告一下好沒關係我們時間因為我是外委會時間比較少本來部長後面後續提供書面包給我你們那個16到底怎麼算出來了那回到這個電的問題我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠要自己讓它還品的部分\n現階段10部機組就550萬千瓦如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組蓋到6部燃氣機組之後它的這個發電量已經超過了現在的發電量6部燃氣機組這是你們的目標蓋6部燃氣機組\n現有的燃煤機組過去承諾要拆掉那也的確要拆了4座你還會留6座燃煤機組給我部長昨天在總之選的時候我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉那回到問題啦如果電夠用的話第一個為什麼要蓋新的那如果蓋新的如果夠用而且還更多的舊的為什麼不能拆掉那個碳的問題啦啊碳的問題我知道啊我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嗎解決碳的問題啊\n我們就看環評結果啊\n報告委員現在的量不是在未來會一樣的\n未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展繁榮用更多的電所以我就是要把這個燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大台中地區大家都能夠幸福快樂地用電所以我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去將來我們的綠電如果大家更支持的話我知道大家可以用電\n主席對不起,最後一句話,最後一段話而已。現有的燃煤機組,10部就550萬千瓦。你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後,再加上現的燃氣機組,你是810萬千瓦。\n我們的目標是一樣的\n我們的目標是一樣的,代表我們的方向也是一樣的。所以你願意拆掉南北基礎?我沒有說不拆掉啊。確定喔?好。部長謝謝。謝謝。主席謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.097 --> 00:00.277\n經濟部部長\n\n00:24.531 --> 00:25.472\n您這個問題是非常好\n\n00:47.779 --> 01:14.121\n我們可以考慮,大眾用電是不是民生用電?是嗎?目前是不是?我們可以來跟這個電價審議委員討論這個命題。好,謝謝部長,因為其實這一次這個問題我在兩個禮拜前就先問了說貴部這個電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的這個影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論。但是直到這個昨天晚上,我是問有沒有而已,我還沒有問內容啊。\n\n01:14.821 --> 01:38.466\n昨天晚上來回應我所以導致我今天必須來問你嘛如果他們早點回應我的話我今天就不會來問你了好不好你們目前當然就回應完了所以我希望經濟部是一個應該是一個全台灣最有效率理論上應該是有最有效率的部會不要拖這麼久才回那好像一樣回到大眾運輸因為我看這個昨天晚上回應給我們的這文件裡面提到這個台鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸電價可能會調漲因為他們屬於\n\n01:40.947 --> 01:41.087\n報告委員．\n\n02:07.984 --> 02:25.123\n我們的公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的那就整個行政院來討論這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼這個也是在院裡面有討論就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼\n\n02:27.886 --> 02:45.462\n這是一種使用者付費的反應那他跟一般的商業比方說我們零售的小吃攤等等他的費率是不會受政府管制這完全是兩件事情所以要跟委員報告是他在公用性上面是足夠的\n\n02:46.443 --> 02:56.128\n但某種程度上它的費率是可以被政府管控的所以最重要是預算由目的是事業主管機關來考慮我要提醒就是說因為如果把它列為電價上漲的部分到最後還是靠政府補貼那也有可能後續也有討論在交通委員會那邊也討論到底不要漲價我要提的是說如果漲價之後很多人\n\n03:06.773 --> 03:24.597\n尤其是坐捷運坐火車的人他如果漲價了他寧願回去騎機車那跟整個國家的這個減碳希望說大家搭乘大眾運輸的這個邏輯或想要被盜取所以這特別提出來提醒一下好那接下來換下一個昨天我想大家也看到說AIT這個處長講說這個臺灣會因為這個綠電水不足來出走那我想這個我們的院長馬上出來幫經濟部講話說不會臺灣的電一定夠用\n\n03:33.579 --> 03:33.719\n台灣綠電的這個\n\n03:52.579 --> 04:04.352\n姆范森創辦人也講這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告\n\n04:11.760 --> 04:32.718\n發電的結構發電發過電的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就231度了\n\n04:38.964 --> 04:45.042\n換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裡生出綠電出來?\n\n04:46.567 --> 05:11.917\n綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係\n\n05:14.855 --> 05:24.520\n就是說每一年每個月做多少,不會。它是我同時下去做,然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的。所以這個創電的時間不一樣。\n\n05:29.042 --> 05:57.220\n他的量不一樣所以得到的結果會不一樣所以沒有線性關係所以你的16的計算不是用他每年度的發電發購電量結果是用某一天他曾經達到16%就認為我們的綠電有16%嗎我是不是請這個他們專家跟你報告一下好沒關係我們時間因為我是外委會時間比較少本來部長後面後續提供書面包給我你們那個16到底怎麼算出來了那回到這個電的問題我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠要自己讓它還品的部分\n\n05:58.591 --> 06:10.795\n現階段10部機組就550萬千瓦如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組蓋到6部燃氣機組之後它的這個發電量已經超過了現在的發電量6部燃氣機組這是你們的目標蓋6部燃氣機組\n\n06:20.093 --> 06:45.772\n現有的燃煤機組過去承諾要拆掉那也的確要拆了4座你還會留6座燃煤機組給我部長昨天在總之選的時候我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉那回到問題啦如果電夠用的話第一個為什麼要蓋新的那如果蓋新的如果夠用而且還更多的舊的為什麼不能拆掉那個碳的問題啦啊碳的問題我知道啊我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嗎解決碳的問題啊\n\n06:47.577 --> 06:48.017\n我們就看環評結果啊\n\n07:17.076 --> 07:17.836\n報告委員現在的量不是在未來會一樣的\n\n07:36.482 --> 08:02.536\n未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展繁榮用更多的電所以我就是要把這個燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大台中地區大家都能夠幸福快樂地用電所以我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去將來我們的綠電如果大家更支持的話我知道大家可以用電\n\n08:05.538 --> 08:12.901\n主席對不起,最後一句話,最後一段話而已。現有的燃煤機組,10部就550萬千瓦。你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後,再加上現的燃氣機組,你是810萬千瓦。\n\n08:20.632 --> 08:20.972\n我們的目標是一樣的\n\n08:45.083 --> 08:54.382\n我們的目標是一樣的,代表我們的方向也是一樣的。所以你願意拆掉南北基礎?我沒有說不拆掉啊。確定喔?好。部長謝謝。謝謝。主席謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.097,"end":0.277,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":24.531,"end":25.472,"text":"您這個問題是非常好"},{"start":47.779,"end":74.121,"text":"我們可以考慮,大眾用電是不是民生用電?是嗎?目前是不是?我們可以來跟這個電價審議委員討論這個命題。好,謝謝部長,因為其實這一次這個問題我在兩個禮拜前就先問了說貴部這個電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的這個影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論。但是直到這個昨天晚上,我是問有沒有而已,我還沒有問內容啊。"},{"start":74.821,"end":98.466,"text":"昨天晚上來回應我所以導致我今天必須來問你嘛如果他們早點回應我的話我今天就不會來問你了好不好你們目前當然就回應完了所以我希望經濟部是一個應該是一個全台灣最有效率理論上應該是有最有效率的部會不要拖這麼久才回那好像一樣回到大眾運輸因為我看這個昨天晚上回應給我們的這文件裡面提到這個台鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸電價可能會調漲因為他們屬於"},{"start":100.947,"end":101.087,"text":"報告委員．"},{"start":127.984,"end":145.123,"text":"我們的公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的那就整個行政院來討論這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼這個也是在院裡面有討論就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼"},{"start":147.886,"end":165.462,"text":"這是一種使用者付費的反應那他跟一般的商業比方說我們零售的小吃攤等等他的費率是不會受政府管制這完全是兩件事情所以要跟委員報告是他在公用性上面是足夠的"},{"start":166.443,"end":176.128,"text":"但某種程度上它的費率是可以被政府管控的所以最重要是預算由目的是事業主管機關來考慮我要提醒就是說因為如果把它列為電價上漲的部分到最後還是靠政府補貼那也有可能後續也有討論在交通委員會那邊也討論到底不要漲價我要提的是說如果漲價之後很多人"},{"start":186.773,"end":204.597,"text":"尤其是坐捷運坐火車的人他如果漲價了他寧願回去騎機車那跟整個國家的這個減碳希望說大家搭乘大眾運輸的這個邏輯或想要被盜取所以這特別提出來提醒一下好那接下來換下一個昨天我想大家也看到說AIT這個處長講說這個臺灣會因為這個綠電水不足來出走那我想這個我們的院長馬上出來幫經濟部講話說不會臺灣的電一定夠用"},{"start":213.579,"end":213.719,"text":"台灣綠電的這個"},{"start":232.579,"end":244.352,"text":"姆范森創辦人也講這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告"},{"start":251.76,"end":272.718,"text":"發電的結構發電發過電的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就231度了"},{"start":278.964,"end":285.042,"text":"換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裡生出綠電出來?"},{"start":286.567,"end":311.917,"text":"綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係"},{"start":314.855,"end":324.52,"text":"就是說每一年每個月做多少,不會。它是我同時下去做,然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的。所以這個創電的時間不一樣。"},{"start":329.042,"end":357.22,"text":"他的量不一樣所以得到的結果會不一樣所以沒有線性關係所以你的16的計算不是用他每年度的發電發購電量結果是用某一天他曾經達到16%就認為我們的綠電有16%嗎我是不是請這個他們專家跟你報告一下好沒關係我們時間因為我是外委會時間比較少本來部長後面後續提供書面包給我你們那個16到底怎麼算出來了那回到這個電的問題我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠要自己讓它還品的部分"},{"start":358.591,"end":370.795,"text":"現階段10部機組就550萬千瓦如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組蓋到6部燃氣機組之後它的這個發電量已經超過了現在的發電量6部燃氣機組這是你們的目標蓋6部燃氣機組"},{"start":380.093,"end":405.772,"text":"現有的燃煤機組過去承諾要拆掉那也的確要拆了4座你還會留6座燃煤機組給我部長昨天在總之選的時候我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉那回到問題啦如果電夠用的話第一個為什麼要蓋新的那如果蓋新的如果夠用而且還更多的舊的為什麼不能拆掉那個碳的問題啦啊碳的問題我知道啊我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嗎解決碳的問題啊"},{"start":407.577,"end":408.017,"text":"我們就看環評結果啊"},{"start":437.076,"end":437.836,"text":"報告委員現在的量不是在未來會一樣的"},{"start":456.482,"end":482.536,"text":"未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展繁榮用更多的電所以我就是要把這個燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大台中地區大家都能夠幸福快樂地用電所以我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去將來我們的綠電如果大家更支持的話我知道大家可以用電"},{"start":485.538,"end":492.901,"text":"主席對不起,最後一句話,最後一段話而已。現有的燃煤機組,10部就550萬千瓦。你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後,再加上現的燃氣機組,你是810萬千瓦。"},{"start":500.632,"end":500.972,"text":"我們的目標是一樣的"},{"start":525.083,"end":534.382,"text":"我們的目標是一樣的,代表我們的方向也是一樣的。所以你願意拆掉南北基礎?我沒有說不拆掉啊。確定喔?好。部長謝謝。謝謝。主席謝謝。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":681,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時13分）謝謝主席，我們先請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，我想大家也是非常關心電的問題，我身為交通委員會的委員，今天特別來這邊問一件事情，就是電價對於交通的衝擊，到底大眾運輸算不算民生用電？部長，在你們定義中，大眾運輸算不算民生用電？"],["郭部長智輝：您這個問題非常好，我們可以考慮，大眾用電是不是民生用電……"],["黃委員健豪：是嗎？目前是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以來跟電價審議委員討論這個命題。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長。其實這一次的這個問題，我在兩個禮拜前就先問了貴部，電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論，但是直到昨天晚上，我是問有沒有而已，我還沒有問內容，昨天晚上才回應我，所以導致我今天必須來問你，如果他們早點回應我的話，我今天就不會來問你了，搞不好你們幕僚單位就回應完了，我覺得經濟部理論上應該是最有效率的部會，不要拖這麼久才回。","回到大眾運輸的議題，我看昨天晚上回應給我們的文件裡面提到，臺鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸的電價可能會調漲，因為他們是屬於用電成長的產業，所以他們的電價會上漲，電價上漲隨之而來的當然就是票價的上漲，因此我才問部長這個核心問題，大眾運輸到底算不算民生產業？它如果算，它就會在你們免除漲價的範圍裡面，但是你現在說它要漲價，那它就不是了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我可以請台電董事長跟您報告嗎？"],["黃委員健豪：可以。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我們公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的，那就整個行政院來討論，這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼，這個也在院裡面有討論，就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼，這是一種使用者付費的反映，它跟一般的商業，比方零售的小吃攤等等，它的費率是不會受政府管制，這完全是兩件事情，所以要跟委員報告，它在公用性上面是足夠的，但某種程度上，它的費率是可以被政府管控的……"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝董事長，沒關係……"],["曾董事長文生：所以最重要的是，預算由目的事業主管機關來考慮。"],["黃委員健豪：最後還是靠政府來補貼啦！我要提醒的是，如果把它列為電價上漲的一部分，到最後還是靠政府補貼，那可能後續在交通委員會那邊也會討論到底要不要漲價。我要提的是，如果漲價之後，很多人，尤其是坐捷運、坐火車的人，他寧願回去騎機車，我想這跟整個國家的減碳，希望大家搭乘大眾運輸的邏輯，就背道而馳了，所以這特別提出來提醒一下。","接下來換下一個議題，昨天我想大家也看到AIT處長講台積電會因為綠電、水不足而出走，院長也馬上出來幫經濟部講話，說不會，臺灣的電一定夠用。但是有點牛頭不對馬嘴，因為包含昨天AIT有講這個是綠電的問題，去年美國商會的「2023台灣白皮書」也提到再生能源的發展不如預期也會影響我們產業的運作，包含近期台達電，臺灣綠電的模範生，創辦人也講核三廠停機以後，臺灣在核電除役之後，綠電可能也不足。我們看一下，部長剛剛自己在講的，臺灣現在的再生能源，綠電的結構16%，但是我看去年（2023年）台電公司的報告，發購電量結構裡面的綠電占比，太陽能、風能、水力等有的沒有的加起來大約只占10%，所以我不確定你這個16%到底從何而來。","再來，回過頭來講，今天谷立言講的是說綠電不夠，我們看到去年再生能源的合計是242.9億度，台積電去年用電就230億度了，換句話說，如果全臺灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話，我們綠電所剩無幾。請問部長，我們要去哪裡生綠電出來？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的部分，我們有很多的方式在創電，剛才跟很多委員都討論過了，我們的綠電創電的部分來自於風力、來自於光電、來自於水力、來自於生質能源……"],["黃委員健豪：這些我都知道，結構上有寫，我是說去年就是這樣子的數字而已，你這個16%是怎麼來的？"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係，就是每一年、每個月做多少，不會，它是我同時下去做，然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的，所以創電的時間不一樣，它的量不一樣，得到的結果會不一樣，沒有線性關係。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你16%的計算不是用它每年度的發購電量結果，是用某一天它曾經達到16%，就認為我們的綠電有16%？"],["郭部長智輝：不是這樣，我是不是請他們的專家跟你報告一下？"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，因為我是外委員會的，時間比較少，部長，後續提供書面報告給我，你們那個16%到底怎麼算出來。","回到電的問題，我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠即將要環評的部分，現階段10部機組就有550萬瓩，如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組，未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組，蓋到6部燃氣機組之後，它的發電量已經超過了現在的發電量，6部燃氣機組是你們的目標，蓋6部燃氣機組，現有的燃煤機組，過去承諾要拆掉，也的確要拆了4座，你還會留6座燃煤機組給我。部長，昨天在總質詢的時候，我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉，那就回到問題啦！如果電夠用的話，第一個，為什麼要蓋新的？如果蓋新的，如果夠用而且還更多了，舊的為什麼不能拆掉？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是碳的問題啦！"],["黃委員健豪：碳的問題，我知道啊！我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：所以就是在解決碳的問題啊！"],["黃委員健豪：解決碳的問題，那你今天已經解決碳的問題，燃煤能不能拆嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：燃煤當然是……"],["黃委員健豪：我沒有反對天然氣喔！"],["郭部長智輝：燃煤當然是要拆啊！"],["黃委員健豪：當然要拆，你確定？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["黃委員健豪：部長，因為昨天院長說沒有喔！"],["郭部長智輝：這是時間嘛！就是什麼時候拆、拆多少。"],["黃委員健豪：拆多少？現在有10部。"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是……"],["黃委員健豪：經濟部過去已經承諾了，第一期拆2部，第二期今天要環評，你要給我們拆幾部？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就看環評結果啊！"],["黃委員健豪：你們的計畫是多少？你們要有計畫……"],["郭部長智輝：要看環評結果。"],["黃委員健豪：你們願意全拆嗎？如果環評結果……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要看環評的結果。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我們今天講的是發電量，我們講的電，現在分兩部分，電量……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在的量跟未來不會一樣的，未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展、繁榮，用更多的電，所以……"],["黃委員健豪：但電就是不夠啊！如果照你的邏輯，電就不夠嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我就是要讓燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大臺中地區，大家都能夠幸福快樂的用電，所以，我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去……"],["黃委員健豪：因為主席站起來了，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：將來我們的綠電，如果大家更支持的話，我希望大家可以用綠電。"],["黃委員健豪：我支持啊！部長，我們先講台中電廠就好了。","主席，對不起，最後一段話而已。","現有的燃煤機組10部就有550萬瓩，你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後，再加上現有的燃煤機組，就是810萬瓩，整個發電量就已經超過了本來的燃煤機組了。我現在問的是，一樣你去蓋新的燃氣機組，大家沒有反對，為了減碳也只能這樣子，你蓋了新的燃氣機組，那舊的燃煤機組，你願不願意，經濟部你願不願意把它拆掉，用燃氣換燃煤，發電效率也更高，就這樣子而已，我的問題就這樣子而已。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的目標是一樣的。我們的目標是一樣的，代表我們的方向也是一樣的。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你願意拆掉燃煤機組？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有說不拆掉啊。"],["黃委員健豪：確定喔？好。部長謝謝。主席謝謝。"],["主席：請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}}