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\"start\": 594.045, \"end\": 594.225, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 594.225, \"end\": 594.245, \"score\": 0.182}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 612.759, \"end\": 612.859, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"范\", \"start\": 612.859, \"end\": 612.879, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 612.879, \"end\": 612.899, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,610 --> 00:00:04,237\n范雲召委質詢。謝謝林委員。我請部長。有請李部長。\n\n2\n00:00:14,107 --> 00:00:22,054\n范委員你好部長早我想今天為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例今天早上有很多的對話當然我想聽起來大家都不反對支持這個部分只是對於它的範圍就是有一些不同的討論回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址的保存條例促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚要還原歷史真相\n\n3\n00:01:00,968 --> 00:01:14,557\n大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄\n\n4\n00:01:26,215 --> 00:01:47,023\n結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宜瑾寫案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手?\n\n5\n00:01:49,504 --> 00:02:06,070\n很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾寫案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁葉茂吧\n\n6\n00:02:08,325 --> 00:02:33,974\n部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛以權勢觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方\n\n7\n00:02:34,654 --> 00:02:57,644\n我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過\n\n8\n00:02:59,726 --> 00:03:21,424\n當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家\n\n9\n00:03:46,409 --> 00:04:12,856\n威安婦紀念館保存條例草案。我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估?我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道促轉會就是解散之後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧\n\n10\n00:04:13,676 --> 00:04:35,801\n因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部的所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧\n\n11\n00:04:39,816 --> 00:04:45,980\n就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好,那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠,你們有做一些當然覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助,譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的,但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少了。\n\n12\n00:05:07,732 --> 00:05:30,130\n剛才也有委員講主要是在研究的部分其他還是很少那當然就是前部長史哲也說是因為缺乏法源有預算也無法運用所以我想這個部分都告訴我們說法源非常的重要那如果我們回來看一下現在有文資法那可是文資法的話它對於歷史\n\n13\n00:06:14,206 --> 00:06:19,528\n他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講台南有湯德章的紀念公園,\n\n14\n00:06:39,076 --> 00:06:47,524\n但每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知所以尊重的程度非常的不一樣這是我們目前面臨的很大的危機剛剛也有委員講到原來的台中和平日報社\n\n15\n00:06:56,391 --> 00:07:10,382\n當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。\n\n16\n00:07:14,805 --> 00:07:24,970\n我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。\n\n17\n00:07:42,779 --> 00:07:47,043\n其他國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分我相信時間真的不夠了我們絕對需要立法保障否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的就是\n\n18\n00:08:18,729 --> 00:08:19,169\n兼具兼具兼具\n\n19\n00:08:44,725 --> 00:08:57,656\n信念。經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工,有針對潛在遺址先期審議,就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法,所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源,所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動?\n\n20\n00:09:03,941 --> 00:09:27,469\n那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好\n\n21\n00:09:30,325 --> 00:09:54,245\n我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛剛在我當主席這邊沒有一個委員說\n\n22\n00:10:12,759 --> 00:10:12,899\n好,謝謝范委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n610\t4237\t范雲召委質詢。謝謝林委員。我請部長。有請李部長。\n14107\t22054\t范委員你好部長早我想今天為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例今天早上有很多的對話當然我想聽起來大家都不反對支持這個部分只是對於它的範圍就是有一些不同的討論回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址的保存條例促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚要還原歷史真相\n41510\t60828\t﹏﹏﹏﹏\n60968\t74557\t大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄\n86215\t107023\t結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宜瑾寫案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手?\n109504\t126070\t很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾寫案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁葉茂吧\n128325\t153974\t部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛以權勢觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方\n154654\t177644\t我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過\n179726\t201424\t當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家\n203456\t226049\t﹏﹏﹏﹏\n226409\t252856\t威安婦紀念館保存條例草案。我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估?我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道促轉會就是解散之後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧\n253676\t275801\t因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部的所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧\n279816\t285980\t就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好,那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠,你們有做一些當然覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助,譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的,但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少了。\n307732\t330130\t剛才也有委員講主要是在研究的部分其他還是很少那當然就是前部長史哲也說是因為缺乏法源有預算也無法運用所以我想這個部分都告訴我們說法源非常的重要那如果我們回來看一下現在有文資法那可是文資法的話它對於歷史\n331271\t346271\t﹏﹏﹏\n346271\t374206\t﹏﹏﹏﹏\n374206\t379528\t他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講台南有湯德章的紀念公園,\n399076\t407524\t但每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知所以尊重的程度非常的不一樣這是我們目前面臨的很大的危機剛剛也有委員講到原來的台中和平日報社\n416391\t430382\t當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。\n434805\t444970\t我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。\n462779\t467043\t其他國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分我相信時間真的不夠了我們絕對需要立法保障否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的就是\n477295\t498404\t﹏﹏ ﹏﹏\n498729\t499169\t兼具兼具兼具\n524725\t537656\t信念。經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工,有針對潛在遺址先期審議,就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法,所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源,所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動?\n543941\t567469\t那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好\n570325\t594245\t我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛剛在我當主席這邊沒有一個委員說\n595486\t612466\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n612759\t612899\t好,謝謝范委員。\n","txt":"范雲召委質詢。謝謝林委員。我請部長。有請李部長。\n范委員你好部長早我想今天為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例今天早上有很多的對話當然我想聽起來大家都不反對支持這個部分只是對於它的範圍就是有一些不同的討論回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址的保存條例促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚要還原歷史真相\n﹏﹏﹏﹏\n大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄\n結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宜瑾寫案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手?\n很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾寫案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁葉茂吧\n部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛以權勢觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方\n我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過\n當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家\n﹏﹏﹏﹏\n威安婦紀念館保存條例草案。我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估?我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道促轉會就是解散之後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧\n因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部的所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧\n就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好,那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠,你們有做一些當然覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助,譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的,但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少了。\n剛才也有委員講主要是在研究的部分其他還是很少那當然就是前部長史哲也說是因為缺乏法源有預算也無法運用所以我想這個部分都告訴我們說法源非常的重要那如果我們回來看一下現在有文資法那可是文資法的話它對於歷史\n﹏﹏﹏\n﹏﹏﹏﹏\n他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講台南有湯德章的紀念公園,\n但每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知所以尊重的程度非常的不一樣這是我們目前面臨的很大的危機剛剛也有委員講到原來的台中和平日報社\n當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。\n我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。\n其他國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分我相信時間真的不夠了我們絕對需要立法保障否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的就是\n﹏﹏ ﹏﹏\n兼具兼具兼具\n信念。經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工,有針對潛在遺址先期審議,就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法,所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源,所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動?\n那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好\n我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛剛在我當主席這邊沒有一個委員說\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n好,謝謝范委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.610 --> 00:04.237\n范雲召委質詢。謝謝林委員。我請部長。有請李部長。\n\n00:14.107 --> 00:22.054\n范委員你好部長早我想今天為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例今天早上有很多的對話當然我想聽起來大家都不反對支持這個部分只是對於它的範圍就是有一些不同的討論回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址的保存條例促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚要還原歷史真相\n\n01:00.968 --> 01:14.557\n大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄\n\n01:26.215 --> 01:47.023\n結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宜瑾寫案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手?\n\n01:49.504 --> 02:06.070\n很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾寫案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁葉茂吧\n\n02:08.325 --> 02:33.974\n部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛以權勢觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方\n\n02:34.654 --> 02:57.644\n我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過\n\n02:59.726 --> 03:21.424\n當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家\n\n03:46.409 --> 04:12.856\n威安婦紀念館保存條例草案。我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估?我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道促轉會就是解散之後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧\n\n04:13.676 --> 04:35.801\n因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部的所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧\n\n04:39.816 --> 04:45.980\n就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好,那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠,你們有做一些當然覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助,譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的,但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少了。\n\n05:07.732 --> 05:30.130\n剛才也有委員講主要是在研究的部分其他還是很少那當然就是前部長史哲也說是因為缺乏法源有預算也無法運用所以我想這個部分都告訴我們說法源非常的重要那如果我們回來看一下現在有文資法那可是文資法的話它對於歷史\n\n06:14.206 --> 06:19.528\n他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講台南有湯德章的紀念公園,\n\n06:39.076 --> 06:47.524\n但每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知所以尊重的程度非常的不一樣這是我們目前面臨的很大的危機剛剛也有委員講到原來的台中和平日報社\n\n06:56.391 --> 07:10.382\n當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。\n\n07:14.805 --> 07:24.970\n我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。\n\n07:42.779 --> 07:47.043\n其他國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分我相信時間真的不夠了我們絕對需要立法保障否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的就是\n\n08:18.729 --> 08:19.169\n兼具兼具兼具\n\n08:44.725 --> 08:57.656\n信念。經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工,有針對潛在遺址先期審議,就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法,所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源,所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動?\n\n09:03.941 --> 09:27.469\n那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好\n\n09:30.325 --> 09:54.245\n我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛剛在我當主席這邊沒有一個委員說\n\n10:12.759 --> 10:12.899\n好,謝謝范委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.61,"end":4.237,"text":"范雲召委質詢。謝謝林委員。我請部長。有請李部長。"},{"start":14.107,"end":22.054,"text":"范委員你好部長早我想今天為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例今天早上有很多的對話當然我想聽起來大家都不反對支持這個部分只是對於它的範圍就是有一些不同的討論回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址的保存條例促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚要還原歷史真相"},{"start":41.51,"end":60.828,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":60.968,"end":74.557,"text":"大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄"},{"start":86.215,"end":107.023,"text":"結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宜瑾寫案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手?"},{"start":109.504,"end":126.07,"text":"很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾寫案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁葉茂吧"},{"start":128.325,"end":153.974,"text":"部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛以權勢觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方"},{"start":154.654,"end":177.644,"text":"我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過"},{"start":179.726,"end":201.424,"text":"當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家"},{"start":203.456,"end":226.049,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":226.409,"end":252.856,"text":"威安婦紀念館保存條例草案。我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估?我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道促轉會就是解散之後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧"},{"start":253.676,"end":275.801,"text":"因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部的所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧"},{"start":279.816,"end":285.98,"text":"就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好,那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠,你們有做一些當然覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助,譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的,但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少了。"},{"start":307.732,"end":330.13,"text":"剛才也有委員講主要是在研究的部分其他還是很少那當然就是前部長史哲也說是因為缺乏法源有預算也無法運用所以我想這個部分都告訴我們說法源非常的重要那如果我們回來看一下現在有文資法那可是文資法的話它對於歷史"},{"start":331.271,"end":346.271,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":346.271,"end":374.206,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":374.206,"end":379.528,"text":"他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講台南有湯德章的紀念公園,"},{"start":399.076,"end":407.524,"text":"但每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知所以尊重的程度非常的不一樣這是我們目前面臨的很大的危機剛剛也有委員講到原來的台中和平日報社"},{"start":416.391,"end":430.382,"text":"當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。"},{"start":434.805,"end":444.97,"text":"我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。"},{"start":462.779,"end":467.043,"text":"其他國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分我相信時間真的不夠了我們絕對需要立法保障否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的就是"},{"start":477.295,"end":498.404,"text":" ﹏﹏ ﹏﹏"},{"start":498.729,"end":499.169,"text":"兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":524.725,"end":537.656,"text":"信念。經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工,有針對潛在遺址先期審議,就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法,所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源,所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動?"},{"start":543.941,"end":567.469,"text":"那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好"},{"start":570.325,"end":594.245,"text":"我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛剛在我當主席這邊沒有一個委員說"},{"start":595.486,"end":612.466,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":612.759,"end":612.899,"text":"好,謝謝范委員。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時22分）謝謝林宜瑾委員，我請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員你好。"],["范委員雲：部長早。我們今天為什麼需要不義遺址保存條例？今天早上有很多對話，當然我想聽起來大家都不反對、支持這個部分，只是對於它的範圍有一些不同的討論。","回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例？促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚了，為還原歷史真相，讓國家承認過去違反自由民主的憲政秩序，也讓國家肯認事件發生時、地的歷史價值，促進社會對話，最後能夠連結未來的法治規劃。","對我來講，這件事情真的有時間上的急迫性。大概前一段時間，有個大學邀請我就關心性別平等的議題對超過100個學生演講，我一開始剛好講到林宅血案跟林義雄先生，發現學生表情茫然。我問一下現場超過100名學生，有沒有人知道、有沒有人聽過林義雄？結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎？您猜100個人中有幾個人聽過林義雄？"],["李部長遠：我覺得沒有人聽過。"],["范委員雲：那部長非常地瞭解，現在的學生對歷史知道得很有限，沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄。接著我再問聽過林宅血案的舉手，部長您猜有幾個人舉手？"],["李部長遠：一樣也是沒人知道。"],["范委員雲：很幸運地，有3個人舉手。問他們知不知道林宅血案是什麼？他們完全不知道。部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上，文化才能開花結果、枝繁葉茂吧？部長您同意吧？"],["李部長遠：同意啊！"],["范委員雲：所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史，這個自由民主沒有辦法守護，甚至社會也沒有辦法對話，我們對歷史可以有不同的看法，但是需要對話，對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情，你詮釋的觀點可以有不同。","剛剛有講到淡江中學，它是我小時候常常去玩的地方，我也是到很現在才知道，當年是臺灣第一的新式學校，原本叫「淡水中學」。很多年輕人知道它是周杰倫的母校，但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳能通為了保存被軍人殺害的學生全屍在體育館中，他後來再也沒有回來過。然後當年淡水中學的董事長林茂生，有多少師生都死於二二八，到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到。這麼重要的歷史，我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道，這就是我想這個東西現在有急迫性的原因。","如果我們連國家要能夠肯認事件發生的歷史價值，連做民主教育、社會對話都沒有的話，我想很多人權的議題，這個社會是不會關心的。剛剛我一直提醒大家，婦女團體希望證明慰安婦是軍事性奴隸，你可以說軍事性奴隸俗稱「慰安婦」。其實文化部支持慰安婦紀念館的保存，我上次也質詢過部長，是不是能夠擴大為婦女人權館？你們說願意評估。","我想這些都需要努力，但是今天我們希望聚焦在不義遺址這個部分。這個部分是未完成的工作，部長應該知道促轉會解散之後，移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究，因為這個部分很清楚是文化部所屬的工作。現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是經促進轉型正義委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的，所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做，如果沒有新法源的話，這個審議就會發生問題，部長同意嗎？"],["李部長遠：同意。"],["范委員雲：就是沒有法源進行後續的審議跟保存嘛！"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：當然我想范巽綠監委的報告也指出，文化部做得還不夠，你們有做一些但他覺得還不夠，而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助，譬如說現在主席的臺南市就有做湯德章等，這是做得比較多的。但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少，剛剛也有委員講，主要是在研究的部分，其他還是很少。","當然前部長史哲也說，是因為缺乏法源，有預算也無法運用，所以我想這個部分都告訴我們，法源非常地重要，如果我們回來看一下，現在有文資法，可是文資法這邊沒有很明確地定義歷史是什麼，但不義遺址保存條例就很明確地指出「國家為達成鞏固威權統治之目的，所為侵害人權事件之發生地」，是比較有明確定義的。","另外就是時間的範圍，其實這個法也會有更清楚明確的定義，這樣才能執行，而且權限也不一樣。文化資產保存法是讓地方來決定，我們過去也發生地方完全不尊重的情況。我們從地方來講的話，剛剛好像並沒有委員提到這個部分，原來的臺灣臺北監獄圍牆其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞訊問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所；市定古蹟也有指定是不義遺址，可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度，剛剛講了臺南有湯德章的紀念公園，可是每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知，所以尊重的程度非常地不一樣，這是我們目前面臨到很大的危機。","剛剛也有委員講到，原來的臺中和平日報社，當時報社中有左翼人士背景遭查封、清算，記者、編輯被逮捕、判刑，著名作家楊逵也在其中，可是現在因為地方政府作成為不列冊追蹤的決定在案，面臨拆除危機。這就是我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟態度不一，我們會面臨到很大的問題。","像剛剛講到「牆」的問題，我們到荷蘭會去看「安妮的日記」的作者，它保存當年的空間是怎麼在那裡完成那個日記，然後外面有很多人排隊排了非常久，記得超過1個小時才能看到。其他的國家，包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分，我相信時間真的不夠了，我們絕對需要立法保障，否則我們剛剛看到這麼多重要的遺跡、人權被傷害的發生地都正在消失跟破壞中。","我還是肯定文化部有做一些努力，包含我們剛剛講的綠島人權館等等，可是這個部分跟整個社會的氛圍，就像我剛剛講的，大學生100個人完全不知道林宅血案。所以空間能夠讓大家對歷史了解，我們要說一個完整的故事，才能讓下一代了解過去國家怎麼傷害人權，也才能夠生出對自由民主守護的信念。","經過我的詢問，文化部目前有規劃部會分工，針對潛在遺址先期審議，就是在等待母法通過，以訂定相關子法與辦法，也就是萬事俱備，只欠法源，所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動？對於相關的法條，希望能夠更熟悉，身為一個文化部長，就要對我們全民做公共教育，保存不義遺址刻不容緩，當然，落實促轉基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好，好嗎？監察院覺得你們不夠好，今天您有做一個解釋，我們希望能夠克服困難，能夠更好，好不好？"],["李部長遠：我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話，我會努力讓這個法通過，但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟，好像不能夠面對真正的……"],["范委員雲：其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法……"],["李部長遠：是嗎？OK，好，我們就……"],["范委員雲：我們只是對範圍界定有不同意見，那是可以討論、商量的，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["范委員雲：部長，您自己詮釋的時候……剛剛我當主席的時候，沒有一個委員說不要這個法，大家都是支持的，只是對於範圍有不同的想法，我想那個是我們可以來商量、討論的。回歸這個法，就是不同的時期要不要再有不同的法，這都是可以討論的，好嗎？也許我們可以用附帶決議或各種方式，部長。"],["李部長遠：OK，好。"],["范委員雲：OK。人權傷痛不能忘，維護歷史記憶是我們這一代很重要的責任，我們要讓下一代都了解自由民主得來不易、威權對人的傷害有多大，只有空間存在，才能說一個完整的故事。謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝范委員。"],["主席：謝謝范委員，部長請回。"],["主席（范委員雲）：請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}