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\"當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這一些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 454.87, \"end\": 455.231, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 455.231, \"end\": 456.291, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 456.291, \"end\": 456.412, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 456.412, \"end\": 457.452, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 457.452, \"end\": 457.553, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 457.553, \"end\": 457.653, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 457.653, \"end\": 457.813, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 457.813, \"end\": 457.933, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 457.933, \"end\": 458.073, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 458.073, \"end\": 458.193, \"score\": 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\"start\": 610.729, \"end\": 610.749, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 610.749, \"end\": 611.089, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"探\", \"start\": 611.089, \"end\": 611.189, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 611.189, \"end\": 611.209, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 614.253, \"end\": 614.273, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,151 --> 00:00:28,394\n請羅廷偉委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。好,有請部長。羅委員你好。部長好。部長,今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案,請部長來說文解釋一下,請問什麼是義?你覺得?\n\n2\n00:00:32,568 --> 00:00:35,871\n我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋,它有三種含義。合於正義的,比如說義舉。\n\n3\n00:00:59,519 --> 00:01:26,368\n再來議名再來又來週記公眾的地方議莊、議社第三種蠻特別的我們也常見的他是假的有其名而非真的怎麼會這樣?他舉例義父、義子、義知對吧?好像教育部的解釋沒有錯\n\n4\n00:01:27,802 --> 00:01:56,790\n是一種義務嘛,不是血緣關係。對對對,但是他說假的,有其名而非真的嘛。那我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下什麼是遺址?就是過去留下來的但是值得保存的地方。好,那您解釋得非常正確喔,其實歷史值得讓我們去做一個探究。那剛剛范雲委員也有討論,也有講到,其實這個所謂的歷史啊,值得我們去做一個探究之外,\n\n5\n00:01:57,150 --> 00:02:10,887\n當然多加一些溝通討論是有必要性的所以我們要講不義遺址保存條例的草案我們支持怎麼會不支持只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸希望能夠更加的明確\n\n6\n00:02:12,168 --> 00:02:33,726\n那我想第二個就先暫時以院版的草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義可以認同嗎\n\n7\n00:02:35,552 --> 00:02:58,625\n是部長那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道沒關係我們分享一下是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎?\n\n8\n00:03:00,214 --> 00:03:17,586\n我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊,\n\n9\n00:03:18,426 --> 00:03:36,554\n覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒\n\n10\n00:03:39,039 --> 00:03:49,412\n我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目那這算不算是不義?\n\n11\n00:03:50,763 --> 00:04:18,415\n那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯誤,那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有,如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊?\n\n12\n00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:45,959\n那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義\n\n13\n00:04:47,499 --> 00:05:12,435\n現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言\n\n14\n00:05:13,456 --> 00:05:25,461\n我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:26,923 --> 00:05:45,738\n當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面對嗎\n\n16\n00:05:47,332 --> 00:06:09,466\n有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。\n\n17\n00:06:12,219 --> 00:06:39,629\n會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:43,127 --> 00:06:53,337\n對,謝謝你支持,我們都支持這是非常好的一部國片但裡面所闡述的內容呢我們就講鄭成功就好了鄭成功對於追隨他的難民\n\n19\n00:06:54,827 --> 00:07:16,172\n移民來到這邊他是超級英雄到現在台灣四處可見顏平郡王室顏平北路顏平中學等名稱但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候對於當時所居住的原住民卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中那麼誰是義誰是不義\n\n20\n00:07:19,629 --> 00:07:32,931\n現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動\n\n21\n00:07:34,870 --> 00:07:59,171\n當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這一些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入\n\n22\n00:08:00,490 --> 00:08:27,182\n難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想\n\n23\n00:08:28,683 --> 00:08:55,703\n院長部長您怎麼看我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論對不義遺址提出新的看法我個人覺得非常好我覺得所有事情經過這個過程會讓大家看得更清楚歷史我覺得是件好事我們一起來討論未來我希望列入這個法案大家一點一點討論好嗎所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整是嗎\n\n24\n00:08:56,323 --> 00:09:21,289\n我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我沒辦法讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇\n\n25\n00:09:22,714 --> 00:09:39,481\n再講一遍提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品比如228的電影就是悲情城市白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江\n\n26\n00:09:44,463 --> 00:10:11,209\n他的作品就有關周事件。換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇他反而是一個最深層的故事我非常認同所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性需不需要考慮到包容性我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究謝謝\n\n27\n00:10:14,253 --> 00:10:14,273\n好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9151\t28394\t請羅廷偉委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。好,有請部長。羅委員你好。部長好。部長,今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案,請部長來說文解釋一下,請問什麼是義?你覺得?\n32568\t35871\t我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋,它有三種含義。合於正義的,比如說義舉。\n59519\t86368\t再來議名再來又來週記公眾的地方議莊、議社第三種蠻特別的我們也常見的他是假的有其名而非真的怎麼會這樣?他舉例義父、義子、義知對吧?好像教育部的解釋沒有錯\n87802\t116790\t是一種義務嘛,不是血緣關係。對對對,但是他說假的,有其名而非真的嘛。那我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下什麼是遺址?就是過去留下來的但是值得保存的地方。好,那您解釋得非常正確喔,其實歷史值得讓我們去做一個探究。那剛剛范雲委員也有討論,也有講到,其實這個所謂的歷史啊,值得我們去做一個探究之外,\n117150\t130887\t當然多加一些溝通討論是有必要性的所以我們要講不義遺址保存條例的草案我們支持怎麼會不支持只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸希望能夠更加的明確\n132168\t153726\t那我想第二個就先暫時以院版的草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義可以認同嗎\n155552\t178625\t是部長那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道沒關係我們分享一下是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎?\n180214\t197586\t我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊,\n198426\t216554\t覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒\n219039\t229412\t我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目那這算不算是不義?\n230763\t258415\t那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯誤,那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有,如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊?\n259670\t285959\t那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義\n287499\t312435\t現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言\n313456\t325461\t我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎?\n326923\t345738\t當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面對嗎\n347332\t369466\t有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。\n372219\t399629\t會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎?\n403127\t413337\t對,謝謝你支持,我們都支持這是非常好的一部國片但裡面所闡述的內容呢我們就講鄭成功就好了鄭成功對於追隨他的難民\n414827\t436172\t移民來到這邊他是超級英雄到現在台灣四處可見顏平郡王室顏平北路顏平中學等名稱但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候對於當時所居住的原住民卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中那麼誰是義誰是不義\n439629\t452931\t現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動\n454870\t479171\t當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這一些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入\n480490\t507182\t難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想\n508683\t535703\t院長部長您怎麼看我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論對不義遺址提出新的看法我個人覺得非常好我覺得所有事情經過這個過程會讓大家看得更清楚歷史我覺得是件好事我們一起來討論未來我希望列入這個法案大家一點一點討論好嗎所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整是嗎\n536323\t561289\t我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我沒辦法讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇\n562714\t579481\t再講一遍提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品比如228的電影就是悲情城市白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江\n584463\t611209\t他的作品就有關周事件。換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇他反而是一個最深層的故事我非常認同所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性需不需要考慮到包容性我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究謝謝\n614253\t614273\t好,謝謝。\n","txt":"請羅廷偉委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。好,有請部長。羅委員你好。部長好。部長,今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案,請部長來說文解釋一下,請問什麼是義?你覺得?\n我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋,它有三種含義。合於正義的,比如說義舉。\n再來議名再來又來週記公眾的地方議莊、議社第三種蠻特別的我們也常見的他是假的有其名而非真的怎麼會這樣?他舉例義父、義子、義知對吧?好像教育部的解釋沒有錯\n是一種義務嘛,不是血緣關係。對對對,但是他說假的,有其名而非真的嘛。那我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下什麼是遺址?就是過去留下來的但是值得保存的地方。好,那您解釋得非常正確喔,其實歷史值得讓我們去做一個探究。那剛剛范雲委員也有討論,也有講到,其實這個所謂的歷史啊,值得我們去做一個探究之外,\n當然多加一些溝通討論是有必要性的所以我們要講不義遺址保存條例的草案我們支持怎麼會不支持只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸希望能夠更加的明確\n那我想第二個就先暫時以院版的草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義可以認同嗎\n是部長那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道沒關係我們分享一下是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎?\n我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊,\n覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒\n我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目那這算不算是不義?\n那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯誤,那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有,如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊?\n那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義\n現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言\n我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎?\n當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面對嗎\n有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。\n會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎?\n對,謝謝你支持,我們都支持這是非常好的一部國片但裡面所闡述的內容呢我們就講鄭成功就好了鄭成功對於追隨他的難民\n移民來到這邊他是超級英雄到現在台灣四處可見顏平郡王室顏平北路顏平中學等名稱但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候對於當時所居住的原住民卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中那麼誰是義誰是不義\n現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動\n當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這一些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入\n難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想\n院長部長您怎麼看我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論對不義遺址提出新的看法我個人覺得非常好我覺得所有事情經過這個過程會讓大家看得更清楚歷史我覺得是件好事我們一起來討論未來我希望列入這個法案大家一點一點討論好嗎所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整是嗎\n我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我沒辦法讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇\n再講一遍提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品比如228的電影就是悲情城市白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江\n他的作品就有關周事件。換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇他反而是一個最深層的故事我非常認同所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性需不需要考慮到包容性我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究謝謝\n好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.151 --> 00:28.394\n請羅廷偉委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。好,有請部長。羅委員你好。部長好。部長,今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案,請部長來說文解釋一下,請問什麼是義?你覺得?\n\n00:32.568 --> 00:35.871\n我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋,它有三種含義。合於正義的,比如說義舉。\n\n00:59.519 --> 01:26.368\n再來議名再來又來週記公眾的地方議莊、議社第三種蠻特別的我們也常見的他是假的有其名而非真的怎麼會這樣?他舉例義父、義子、義知對吧?好像教育部的解釋沒有錯\n\n01:27.802 --> 01:56.790\n是一種義務嘛,不是血緣關係。對對對,但是他說假的,有其名而非真的嘛。那我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下什麼是遺址?就是過去留下來的但是值得保存的地方。好,那您解釋得非常正確喔,其實歷史值得讓我們去做一個探究。那剛剛范雲委員也有討論,也有講到,其實這個所謂的歷史啊,值得我們去做一個探究之外,\n\n01:57.150 --> 02:10.887\n當然多加一些溝通討論是有必要性的所以我們要講不義遺址保存條例的草案我們支持怎麼會不支持只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸希望能夠更加的明確\n\n02:12.168 --> 02:33.726\n那我想第二個就先暫時以院版的草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義可以認同嗎\n\n02:35.552 --> 02:58.625\n是部長那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道沒關係我們分享一下是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎?\n\n03:00.214 --> 03:17.586\n我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊,\n\n03:18.426 --> 03:36.554\n覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒\n\n03:39.039 --> 03:49.412\n我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目那這算不算是不義?\n\n03:50.763 --> 04:18.415\n那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯誤,那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有,如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊?\n\n04:19.670 --> 04:45.959\n那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義\n\n04:47.499 --> 05:12.435\n現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言\n\n05:13.456 --> 05:25.461\n我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎?\n\n05:26.923 --> 05:45.738\n當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面對嗎\n\n05:47.332 --> 06:09.466\n有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。\n\n06:12.219 --> 06:39.629\n會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎?\n\n06:43.127 --> 06:53.337\n對,謝謝你支持,我們都支持這是非常好的一部國片但裡面所闡述的內容呢我們就講鄭成功就好了鄭成功對於追隨他的難民\n\n06:54.827 --> 07:16.172\n移民來到這邊他是超級英雄到現在台灣四處可見顏平郡王室顏平北路顏平中學等名稱但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候對於當時所居住的原住民卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中那麼誰是義誰是不義\n\n07:19.629 --> 07:32.931\n現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動\n\n07:34.870 --> 07:59.171\n當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這一些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入\n\n08:00.490 --> 08:27.182\n難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想\n\n08:28.683 --> 08:55.703\n院長部長您怎麼看我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論對不義遺址提出新的看法我個人覺得非常好我覺得所有事情經過這個過程會讓大家看得更清楚歷史我覺得是件好事我們一起來討論未來我希望列入這個法案大家一點一點討論好嗎所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整是嗎\n\n08:56.323 --> 09:21.289\n我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我沒辦法讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇\n\n09:22.714 --> 09:39.481\n再講一遍提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品比如228的電影就是悲情城市白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江\n\n09:44.463 --> 10:11.209\n他的作品就有關周事件。換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇他反而是一個最深層的故事我非常認同所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性需不需要考慮到包容性我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究謝謝\n\n10:14.253 --> 10:14.273\n好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.151,"end":28.394,"text":"請羅廷偉委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。好,有請部長。羅委員你好。部長好。部長,今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案,請部長來說文解釋一下,請問什麼是義?你覺得?"},{"start":32.568,"end":35.871,"text":"我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋,它有三種含義。合於正義的,比如說義舉。"},{"start":59.519,"end":86.368,"text":"再來議名再來又來週記公眾的地方議莊、議社第三種蠻特別的我們也常見的他是假的有其名而非真的怎麼會這樣?他舉例義父、義子、義知對吧?好像教育部的解釋沒有錯"},{"start":87.802,"end":116.79,"text":"是一種義務嘛,不是血緣關係。對對對,但是他說假的,有其名而非真的嘛。那我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下什麼是遺址?就是過去留下來的但是值得保存的地方。好,那您解釋得非常正確喔,其實歷史值得讓我們去做一個探究。那剛剛范雲委員也有討論,也有講到,其實這個所謂的歷史啊,值得我們去做一個探究之外,"},{"start":117.15,"end":130.887,"text":"當然多加一些溝通討論是有必要性的所以我們要講不義遺址保存條例的草案我們支持怎麼會不支持只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸希望能夠更加的明確"},{"start":132.168,"end":153.726,"text":"那我想第二個就先暫時以院版的草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義可以認同嗎"},{"start":155.552,"end":178.625,"text":"是部長那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道沒關係我們分享一下是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎?"},{"start":180.214,"end":197.586,"text":"我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊,"},{"start":198.426,"end":216.554,"text":"覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒"},{"start":219.039,"end":229.412,"text":"我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目那這算不算是不義?"},{"start":230.763,"end":258.415,"text":"那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯誤,那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有,如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊?"},{"start":259.67,"end":285.959,"text":"那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義"},{"start":287.499,"end":312.435,"text":"現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言"},{"start":313.456,"end":325.461,"text":"我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎?"},{"start":326.923,"end":345.738,"text":"當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面對嗎"},{"start":347.332,"end":369.466,"text":"有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。"},{"start":372.219,"end":399.629,"text":"會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎?"},{"start":403.127,"end":413.337,"text":"對,謝謝你支持,我們都支持這是非常好的一部國片但裡面所闡述的內容呢我們就講鄭成功就好了鄭成功對於追隨他的難民"},{"start":414.827,"end":436.172,"text":"移民來到這邊他是超級英雄到現在台灣四處可見顏平郡王室顏平北路顏平中學等名稱但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候對於當時所居住的原住民卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中那麼誰是義誰是不義"},{"start":439.629,"end":452.931,"text":"現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動"},{"start":454.87,"end":479.171,"text":"當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這一些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入"},{"start":480.49,"end":507.182,"text":"難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想"},{"start":508.683,"end":535.703,"text":"院長部長您怎麼看我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論對不義遺址提出新的看法我個人覺得非常好我覺得所有事情經過這個過程會讓大家看得更清楚歷史我覺得是件好事我們一起來討論未來我希望列入這個法案大家一點一點討論好嗎所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整是嗎"},{"start":536.323,"end":561.289,"text":"我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我沒辦法讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇"},{"start":562.714,"end":579.481,"text":"再講一遍提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品比如228的電影就是悲情城市白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江"},{"start":584.463,"end":611.209,"text":"他的作品就有關周事件。換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇他反而是一個最深層的故事我非常認同所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性需不需要考慮到包容性我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究謝謝"},{"start":614.253,"end":614.273,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":621,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時32分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員，你好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案，請部長來說文解字一下，請問什麼是「義」，你覺得？"],["李部長遠：「義」？"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，可以跟我分享一下嗎？"],["李部長遠：「義」這個字看你要擺在哪裡來講，就是一種道義，是心裡所做、所擔的道義，我覺得最珍貴的就是人與人之間的道義，大概就這個意思吧。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋，它有3種涵義：合於正義的，比如義舉、義民；用來周濟公眾的地方，如義莊、義舍；第三種滿特別的，我們也常見，它是假的，有其名而非真的。怎麼會這樣？它舉例，如義父、義子、義肢，對吧？好像教育部的解釋沒有錯。"],["李部長遠：是一種義務，不是血緣關係。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，但是它是說假的、有其名而非真的。我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下，什麼是「遺址」？"],["李部長遠：就是過去留下來的，但是值得保存的地方。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您解釋得非常正確，其實歷史值得讓我們去做探究。剛剛范雲委員也有討論、也有講到，其實歷史除了值得我們去做探究之外，當然，多加一些溝通、討論是有必要性的。所以我們要講，對於不義遺址保存條例草案，我們支持，怎麼會不支持？只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸，希望能夠更加地明確。","第二個，我就先暫時以院版的草案來說，不義遺址要如何保存活化、怎麼做、怎麼修復，又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義，是我們今天在教育及文化委員會要討論到的重點。這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義，可以認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，那你有聽過清德宗嗎？顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝，部長知道是誰嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不知道，我對清朝知道的不多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不太知道，沒關係，我們分享一下，是光緒皇帝。我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗，請問部長知道是誰嗎？"],["李部長遠：不知道欸。"],["羅委員廷瑋：輿論認為現在的賴清德總統宛如讓臺灣生活在威權統治之下，所以網路輿論稱他為清德宗，我在引述的是網路輿論。我想要跟你分享的是，我們看到批踢踢，很多人覺得臺灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣，如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期。我具體也建議一下部長，我們先看一下這個案例：賴清德拆南鐵「逼90歲老人2小時搬家」，自救會長怒。我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目，這算不算是不義？當然，它不是遺址，可是它改成不義場域……"],["李部長遠：我可以回答，假如我知道的話，南鐵當初是中央通過，由地方來執行，就是這樣這麼簡單的概念，可是大家要把這個錯誤的地方……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那我想問你，你說中央通過，地方可以不去執行嗎？"],["李部長遠：中央通過，地方在時間內一定要執行，所以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當時他面對的態度，新聞畫面都有，如果你要全部推給馬維拉，我想他既然認為這是中央的決策，他可以不去執行，現在他看到了，他還是實際地去執行，面對民眾的陳情、面對民眾的血淚，他當時的回應呢？今天我們不在這邊具體地去闡述過程，但我要講的是，我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20日至今？因為時間點有包含現在，所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用，我們用不義場域、不義現在的地址，我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做闡述。但是對於不義遺址，我要講的是，我們今天不是要針對賴總統，我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例，讓大家能夠清楚地明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義，是全民的不義、是歷史所探究的不義嗎？","剛剛是先引言。我們之前公布院版草案的時候，就有媒體來問我對不義遺址保存條例的看法，我的態度很明確，就是我認為歷史好的、壞的全部都要被記下，這句話你可以認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：當然要認同。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以吧？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞、網路輿論，但是歷史應該要整體地全部做保留，讓孩子能夠知道，讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面，對嗎？"],["李部長遠：歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的借鏡，沒有歷史的話，我們不知道我們應該要怎麼往前、要怎麼走，所有歷史曾經發生過的悲劇，希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的，曾經發生過刑求、強逼口供、槍決的事情，會發生在臺灣民主時代的這一刻嗎？不會！會因為思想，把你逮捕、刑求、槍決嗎？不會！那就是因為臺灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代，它不會倒回去，您說對嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：我支持，所以我剛剛開宗明義就講，不義遺址保存條例草案我們支持啊！但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你，請問一下，你有看過賽德克．巴萊嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不但看過，我還支持過它。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝你支持，我們都支持，這是非常好的一部國片，但裡面所闡述的內容呢？我們就講鄭成功就好了，鄭成功對於追隨他移民來到這邊的難民，他是超級英雄，到現在臺灣四處可見延平郡王祠、延平北路、延平中學等名稱；但當鄭成功降臨在臺灣這片土地的時候，對於當時所居住的原住民，卻可能是毀天滅地的災禍。如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中，那麼誰是義，誰是不義？現在我們看到賽德克．巴萊，您說您支持，裡面的內容不需要我再闡述，為什麼這些賽德克．巴萊人，他們最後群起要去反對，甚至做出這些舉動？當中誰是義，誰是不義？這也是我們今天希望能夠探討，我們在界定不義遺址保存時，現在要怎麼去界定它的時間軸，你剛剛說有所謂的槍決、有所謂的迫害人權，當時也有啊！可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案，我們卻沒有看到你把它納入，難道它就可以被忘記？它就可以不用保存？它就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎？所以今天站在這裡的所有委員，還是再一次強調，意識形態是你所說的，我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案，讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史，這樣子我的態度很明顯，部長，您怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：我忽然覺得今天所有討論都非常好，因為至少國民黨委員都加入討論，對不義遺址提出新的看法，我個人覺得非常好，我覺得所有事情經過這個過程，會讓大家看得更清楚歷史，我覺得是一件好事，我們一起來討論，未來我希望列入這個法案，大家一點一點討論好嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：我沒辦法決定一切，我想送去那個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我沒有讓你決定，我說，你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的賽德克．巴萊也是啊！你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見，你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分能夠再拉，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：大家一起討論吧！"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你認不認同嘛？"],["李部長遠：我不管認不認同，我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把臺灣所發生過的所有悲劇再講一遍，提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍，而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品，譬如二二八的電影就是悲情城市、白色恐怖的電影就是牯嶺街少年殺人事件，這一次韓國得到諾貝爾獎的作家韓江，他的作品就有光州事件；換句話說，當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇，它反而是一個最深層的故事。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我非常認同，所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入，而不是你所界定原本這個草案中的悲劇的時間軸。所以最後我要講，文化政策的制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性？需不需要考慮到包容性？我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們要處理臨時提案，臨時提案提案人林宜瑾、范雲，連署人是陳秀寳，我們請議事人員先宣讀。","案由：","不義遺址標示系統上路至今，已對台灣幾處不義遺址先行完成標示，包含行政院、白色恐怖景美紀念園區、台南湯德章紀念公園、白色恐怖綠島紀念園區新生訓導處及綠島感訓監獄、高雄市立歷史博物館（原高雄市政府）等處。","除前段提及之地點外，根據促進會任務總結報告，該會亦已針對全台多處不義遺址進行測繪、盤點與初步認定，有待「不義遺址標示系統」掛牌標示。鑑於歷史教育之重要性，以喚起社會大眾對於人權、白色恐怖歷史及轉型正義的關注，帶動更多的省思與討論。文化部應盡速進行「不義遺址標示系統」之賡續標示作業，並於一個月內提出將如何進行標示之作業期程規劃。","提案人：林宜瑾　　范　雲　　吳沛憶","連署人：陳培瑜　　陳秀寳"],["主席：請問提案委員林宜瑾委員有沒有要補充說明或意見？"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席。我是認為不義遺址的標示系統應該是持續辦理的一個事項，就如同我們陳文成博士紀念碑有紀念碑解說一樣，它清楚的解說這個地方發生什麼人權迫害，我覺得這也是一個非常好的人權教育。所以我覺得從我手上這本書上的不義遺址，二二八跟白色恐怖不義遺址有47處，這裡面有完成標示的就如同我提案說明這幾處而已，所以我覺得我們應該要好好的再做持續性的處理。之前張雅琳委員也有在總質詢提到過，行政院其實可以加入不義遺址的導覽，因為行政院那邊也有一些標示，大家也可以去行政院看，這個都很好，所以我期待文化部這邊再針對這個標示做一些系統的規劃，作業期程也讓我們委員會知道，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝林宜瑾委員。請問其他委員有沒有要補充說明或意見的？（無）沒有。請問部長有無補充說明？"],["李部長遠：沒有，我們就遵照辦理。"],["主席：OK！那就照案通過。如果有委員要補簽的話，請到前面來，議事人員會詳細登載在議事錄。","接著繼續進行質詢。","請鄭天財委員質詢，外委員會4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}