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609.42, \"text\": \"因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民的人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 582.55, \"end\": 582.95, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 582.95, \"end\": 583.09, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 583.09, \"end\": 583.21, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 583.21, \"end\": 583.511, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 583.511, \"end\": 583.631, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 583.631, \"end\": 584.191, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 584.191, \"end\": 584.491, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 584.491, \"end\": 584.771, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"訟\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 584.771, \"end\": 585.771, \"score\": 0.902}, 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00:00:18,009\n主席好,還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題。請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理?\n\n2\n00:00:38,753 --> 00:00:56,414\n我們期待每一個人都是一個誠實坦誠的人嗎?所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德嗎?我們講說他是一個道德。那麼道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:58,966 --> 00:00:59,926\n只是在法院之前不可以說謊。\n\n4\n00:01:40,903 --> 00:01:41,283\n﹝大法官﹞\n\n5\n00:02:05,151 --> 00:02:09,295\n那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裡面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼\n\n6\n00:02:20,465 --> 00:02:47,735\n大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責\n\n7\n00:02:48,955 --> 00:03:07,689\n的這個機制的這個就是他自己負擔自負民主問責最嚴重的話他就自行請辭他的意思是這樣所以呢也就是說這政府機關人員的在立院面前在立法委員面前他是可以不用說實話的他不負誠實的責任您同意嗎\n\n8\n00:03:14,980 --> 00:03:22,141\n那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任嗎?他還是要負政治責任啊那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫?簽驗\n\n9\n00:03:46,084 --> 00:04:12,874\n他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入\n\n10\n00:04:16,207 --> 00:04:29,338\n這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲的同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?\n\n11\n00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:57,136\n跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去\n\n12\n00:04:58,867 --> 00:05:21,875\n但是你們有提案修法的責任,對不對?你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法咧?大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊。那同樣的道理啊,那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責,這是屬於我道德責任,我說謊是受到社會各界的評價。你們憑什麼要來處罰我?\n\n13\n00:05:24,605 --> 00:05:45,591\n我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條文我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責\n\n14\n00:05:49,873 --> 00:05:57,475\n當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的\n\n15\n00:06:19,042 --> 00:06:46,460\n如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼\n\n16\n00:06:48,536 --> 00:07:17,177\n所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談\n\n17\n00:07:19,336 --> 00:07:36,106\n我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎?我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎?我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊\n\n18\n00:07:51,175 --> 00:08:13,459\n為什麼我們現在可以處罰?請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰?目前因為法院這個在拒絕要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是台灣秘書長前面來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛\n\n19\n00:08:15,322 --> 00:08:43,866\n那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個好再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的\n\n20\n00:08:46,878 --> 00:08:49,819\n我想請這個陳怡廳長陳廳長在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要\n\n21\n00:09:11,967 --> 00:09:37,564\n我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規範是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?把這條刪除會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務欸也沒有提供資料的義務欸\n\n22\n00:09:42,550 --> 00:10:09,420\n因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民的人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由\n\n23\n00:10:12,461 --> 00:10:32,199\n所以是不是應該要提出修法?是這樣嗎?所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是?\n\n24\n00:10:34,381 --> 00:10:43,767\n我們正在研議當中,如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議。是啊,那你們都研議了,那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢?對啊,大法官也是一樣啊。大法官根據大法官的議址,未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討、修正。然後無故缺席的處罰,無正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊。符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊。\n\n25\n00:11:02,377 --> 00:11:04,765\n委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣\n\n26\n00:11:06,129 --> 00:11:34,160\n是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝\n\n27\n00:11:35,011 --> 00:11:38,430\n好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9782\t18009\t主席好,還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題。請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理?\n38753\t56414\t我們期待每一個人都是一個誠實坦誠的人嗎?所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德嗎?我們講說他是一個道德。那麼道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎?\n58966\t59926\t只是在法院之前不可以說謊。\n81937\t100009\t﹏﹏﹏\n100903\t101283\t﹝大法官﹞\n125151\t129295\t那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裡面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼\n140465\t167735\t大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責\n168955\t187689\t的這個機制的這個就是他自己負擔自負民主問責最嚴重的話他就自行請辭他的意思是這樣所以呢也就是說這政府機關人員的在立院面前在立法委員面前他是可以不用說實話的他不負誠實的責任您同意嗎\n194980\t202141\t那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任嗎?他還是要負政治責任啊那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫?簽驗\n226084\t252874\t他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入\n256207\t269338\t這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲的同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?\n283800\t297136\t跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去\n298867\t321875\t但是你們有提案修法的責任,對不對?你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法咧?大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊。那同樣的道理啊,那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責,這是屬於我道德責任,我說謊是受到社會各界的評價。你們憑什麼要來處罰我?\n324605\t345591\t我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條文我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責\n349873\t357475\t當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的\n379042\t406460\t如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼\n408536\t437177\t所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談\n439336\t456106\t我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎?我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎?我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊\n471175\t493459\t為什麼我們現在可以處罰?請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰?目前因為法院這個在拒絕要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是台灣秘書長前面來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛\n495322\t523866\t那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個好再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的\n526878\t529819\t我想請這個陳怡廳長陳廳長在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要\n551967\t577564\t我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規範是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?把這條刪除會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務欸也沒有提供資料的義務欸\n582550\t609420\t因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民的人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由\n612461\t632199\t所以是不是應該要提出修法?是這樣嗎?所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是?\n634381\t643767\t我們正在研議當中,如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議。是啊,那你們都研議了,那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢?對啊,大法官也是一樣啊。大法官根據大法官的議址,未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討、修正。然後無故缺席的處罰,無正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊。符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊。\n662377\t664765\t委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣\n666129\t694160\t是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝\n695011\t698430\t好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長\n","txt":"主席好,還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題。請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理?\n我們期待每一個人都是一個誠實坦誠的人嗎?所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德嗎?我們講說他是一個道德。那麼道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎?\n只是在法院之前不可以說謊。\n﹏﹏﹏\n﹝大法官﹞\n那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裡面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼\n大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責\n的這個機制的這個就是他自己負擔自負民主問責最嚴重的話他就自行請辭他的意思是這樣所以呢也就是說這政府機關人員的在立院面前在立法委員面前他是可以不用說實話的他不負誠實的責任您同意嗎\n那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任嗎?他還是要負政治責任啊那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫?簽驗\n他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入\n這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲的同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?\n跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去\n但是你們有提案修法的責任,對不對?你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法咧?大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊。那同樣的道理啊,那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責,這是屬於我道德責任,我說謊是受到社會各界的評價。你們憑什麼要來處罰我?\n我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條文我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責\n當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的\n如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼\n所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談\n我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎?我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎?我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊\n為什麼我們現在可以處罰?請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰?目前因為法院這個在拒絕要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是台灣秘書長前面來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛\n那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個好再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的\n我想請這個陳怡廳長陳廳長在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要\n我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規範是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?把這條刪除會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務欸也沒有提供資料的義務欸\n因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民的人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由\n所以是不是應該要提出修法?是這樣嗎?所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是?\n我們正在研議當中,如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議。是啊,那你們都研議了,那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢?對啊,大法官也是一樣啊。大法官根據大法官的議址,未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討、修正。然後無故缺席的處罰,無正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊。符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊。\n委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣\n是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝\n好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.782 --> 00:18.009\n主席好,還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題。請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理?\n\n00:38.753 --> 00:56.414\n我們期待每一個人都是一個誠實坦誠的人嗎?所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德嗎?我們講說他是一個道德。那麼道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎?\n\n00:58.966 --> 00:59.926\n只是在法院之前不可以說謊。\n\n01:40.903 --> 01:41.283\n﹝大法官﹞\n\n02:05.151 --> 02:09.295\n那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裡面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼\n\n02:20.465 --> 02:47.735\n大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責\n\n02:48.955 --> 03:07.689\n的這個機制的這個就是他自己負擔自負民主問責最嚴重的話他就自行請辭他的意思是這樣所以呢也就是說這政府機關人員的在立院面前在立法委員面前他是可以不用說實話的他不負誠實的責任您同意嗎\n\n03:14.980 --> 03:22.141\n那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任嗎?他還是要負政治責任啊那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫?簽驗\n\n03:46.084 --> 04:12.874\n他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入\n\n04:16.207 --> 04:29.338\n這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲的同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?\n\n04:43.800 --> 04:57.136\n跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去\n\n04:58.867 --> 05:21.875\n但是你們有提案修法的責任,對不對?你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法咧?大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊。那同樣的道理啊,那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責,這是屬於我道德責任,我說謊是受到社會各界的評價。你們憑什麼要來處罰我?\n\n05:24.605 --> 05:45.591\n我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條文我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責\n\n05:49.873 --> 05:57.475\n當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的\n\n06:19.042 --> 06:46.460\n如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼\n\n06:48.536 --> 07:17.177\n所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談\n\n07:19.336 --> 07:36.106\n我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎?我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎?我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊\n\n07:51.175 --> 08:13.459\n為什麼我們現在可以處罰?請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰?目前因為法院這個在拒絕要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是台灣秘書長前面來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛\n\n08:15.322 --> 08:43.866\n那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個好再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的\n\n08:46.878 --> 08:49.819\n我想請這個陳怡廳長陳廳長在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要\n\n09:11.967 --> 09:37.564\n我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規範是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?把這條刪除會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務欸也沒有提供資料的義務欸\n\n09:42.550 --> 10:09.420\n因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民的人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由\n\n10:12.461 --> 10:32.199\n所以是不是應該要提出修法?是這樣嗎?所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是?\n\n10:34.381 --> 10:43.767\n我們正在研議當中,如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議。是啊,那你們都研議了,那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢?對啊,大法官也是一樣啊。大法官根據大法官的議址,未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討、修正。然後無故缺席的處罰,無正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊。符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊。\n\n11:02.377 --> 11:04.765\n委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣\n\n11:06.129 --> 11:34.160\n是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝\n\n11:35.011 --> 11:38.430\n好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.782,"end":18.009,"text":"主席好,還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題。請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理?"},{"start":38.753,"end":56.414,"text":"我們期待每一個人都是一個誠實坦誠的人嗎?所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德嗎?我們講說他是一個道德。那麼道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎?"},{"start":58.966,"end":59.926,"text":"只是在法院之前不可以說謊。"},{"start":81.937,"end":100.009,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":100.903,"end":101.283,"text":" ﹝大法官﹞"},{"start":125.151,"end":129.295,"text":"那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裡面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼"},{"start":140.465,"end":167.735,"text":"大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責"},{"start":168.955,"end":187.689,"text":"的這個機制的這個就是他自己負擔自負民主問責最嚴重的話他就自行請辭他的意思是這樣所以呢也就是說這政府機關人員的在立院面前在立法委員面前他是可以不用說實話的他不負誠實的責任您同意嗎"},{"start":194.98,"end":202.141,"text":"那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任嗎?他還是要負政治責任啊那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫?簽驗"},{"start":226.084,"end":252.874,"text":"他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入"},{"start":256.207,"end":269.338,"text":"這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲的同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?"},{"start":283.8,"end":297.136,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去"},{"start":298.867,"end":321.875,"text":"但是你們有提案修法的責任,對不對?你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法咧?大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊。那同樣的道理啊,那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責,這是屬於我道德責任,我說謊是受到社會各界的評價。你們憑什麼要來處罰我?"},{"start":324.605,"end":345.591,"text":"我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條文我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責"},{"start":349.873,"end":357.475,"text":"當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的"},{"start":379.042,"end":406.46,"text":"如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼"},{"start":408.536,"end":437.177,"text":"所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談"},{"start":439.336,"end":456.106,"text":"我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎?我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎?我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊"},{"start":471.175,"end":493.459,"text":"為什麼我們現在可以處罰?請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰?目前因為法院這個在拒絕要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是台灣秘書長前面來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛"},{"start":495.322,"end":523.866,"text":"那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個好再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的"},{"start":526.878,"end":529.819,"text":"我想請這個陳怡廳長陳廳長在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要"},{"start":551.967,"end":577.564,"text":"我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規範是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?把這條刪除會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務欸也沒有提供資料的義務欸"},{"start":582.55,"end":609.42,"text":"因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民的人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由"},{"start":612.461,"end":632.199,"text":"所以是不是應該要提出修法?是這樣嗎?所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是?"},{"start":634.381,"end":643.767,"text":"我們正在研議當中,如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議。是啊,那你們都研議了,那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢?對啊,大法官也是一樣啊。大法官根據大法官的議址,未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討、修正。然後無故缺席的處罰,無正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊。符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊。"},{"start":662.377,"end":664.765,"text":"委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣"},{"start":666.129,"end":694.16,"text":"是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝"},{"start":695.011,"end":698.43,"text":"好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時40分）主席好，還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副秘書長好。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題，請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們期待每一個人都是誠實、坦誠的人。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德，它是不是一個道德？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：每個人都應該都有這樣的道德。"],["翁委員曉玲：那麼道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎？如果誠實是屬於個人的道德。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果是在法院的程序裡面具結，那當然要看情形，如果具結以後，卻對案件的事實說謊，這是有處罰，但是其他情形又不盡然相同。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以只有在法院之前不可以說謊，如果說謊的話，就會被處罰；如果是其他的人，尤其是政府官員說謊，就不是屬於法律可以科責的，你的意思是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：看在什麼樣的場合，如果政府官員到法院訴訟程序去作證……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以只有法院最大嘛，對不對？只有在法官面前不可以說謊，那在其他的人的面前，在立法委員面前，是可以說謊的，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那要看相關的這些規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：相關的規範。好，我們看一下，這次的憲判字第9號判決社會最覺得訝異的，最不可思議的一段解釋，是大法官認為，行政首長或政府人員在立法院院會、委員會調查程序所做的陳述，就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任，無涉法律責任，如果行政首長、政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及虛偽陳述引發爭議，乃是屬於政治性的爭議，本人要受到民主問責，就是他自己自負民主問責，最嚴重的話，他就自行請辭，意思是這樣，也就是政府機關人員在接受立法委員質詢時，是可以不用說實話的，他不負誠實的責任，您同意嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官的判決文好像沒有這樣子寫。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有這樣子寫？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只寫他的責任屬於政治……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他說不負法律責任。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他還是要負政治責任。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊。好，那所以呢？現在從大法官這號判決裡面，我們來延伸幾個問題，如果今天有人民主張現在刑法裡面處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的，可以怎麼寫？他可以說，人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任，無涉法律責任，人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容，如果有涉及虛偽陳述引發爭議，是屬於道德爭議，本人受到社會譴責，而道德問題是屬於社會關係中去解決，不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入，這段話您同意嗎？如果有人提出這樣子的……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這個話在……"],["翁委員曉玲：聲請釋憲，我認為刑法現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的，您認為大法官會怎麼判？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前大法官並沒有說在訴訟過程中的偽證罪是違憲……"],["翁委員曉玲：同樣的邏輯啊！請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官已經……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您是完全認同大法官這個見解的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們是司法行政單位，我們沒有那個資格跟立場去說明大法官……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是你們有提案修法的責任，對不對？你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意旨去提案修法呢？大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任，同樣的道理，那麼人民也可以主張今天就所陳述的內容自行負責，這是屬於人民自己的道德責任，說謊是受到社會各界的評價，你們憑什麼要來處罰？我們看一下現在刑法第一百六十八條，跟刑法第一百一十一條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的條文，我們比較看看構成要件到底有什麼不同，除了少了具結之外，都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責，當然就像剛剛副秘書長講的，唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊，但是在立法委員面前可以說謊。我知道其實副秘書長今天很為難，看到大法官這樣的憲法判決，然後再加上我們現在不管在行政法規、訴訟法規裡面，其實都有很多跟這次立法院職權行使法修的條文是大同小異的。如果大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後，一般老百姓可以主張，同樣都是說謊，同樣沒有誠實說實話的義務，但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面敘述，這一些顯然不太能夠用到法院的程序。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，就是大法官、司法院最大，對不對？大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭的一份子，所以無論如何就是司法院最大，在司法院面前不可以說謊，然後在其他的機關面前、在立法院面前，就可以說謊。我只是感到很遺憾，像這樣子的憲法裁判理由裡面，大法官把很多道理混為一談。我們過去講的政治責任，難道不是政治道德嗎？我們講一般的個人人品道德，都可以轉換成為法律責任、法律義務，為什麼政治道德、政治責任不能夠轉換為法律義務？只是因為沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎？憲法裡面有說不可以處罰？憲法裡面也沒有說有授權法院，可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人，為什麼我們現在可以處罰？請問副秘書長，為什麼現在可以處罰？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前因為法院在具結以後，要為誠實陳述，這個的處罰，我想不只是……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為法律保留，法律已經有規定了，對不對？憲法裡面沒有規定得這麼巨細靡遺，就是授權立法者自己去制定。同樣的道理，在立法院職權行使法也是一樣，我們是踐行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律，同樣地也是把一些政治道德、政治責任轉換成為法律義務，其實這個邏輯是一樣的。","當然不僅僅是關於虛偽陳述的問題，對於不提供資料也是一樣的，我想請教程怡怡廳長，行政訴訟法第一百六十九條規定，第三人無正當理由不從提出文書之命者，行政法院可以處罰新臺幣三萬元以下的罰鍰，您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要？"],["程廳長怡怡：我想訴訟法明文規定，應該是有必要才會在法律上這樣規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，如果我們今天依據大法官的憲判的理由，把這條廢了呢？把這條刪除，會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎？因為大法官認為人民沒有提供資料的義務。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：報告委員，大法官並沒有行政訴訟法，人民在法院的程序裡面，必須……"],["翁委員曉玲：大法官沒有說，但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚，我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨，對不對？所以今天有立法委員或者是你們，應該要主動提出修法啊！依照大法官憲法判決的意旨，要保障人民的自由，保障他們有言論、不言論的自由，保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由，所以是不是應該要提出修法？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們認為行政訴訟法應該不在這一次大法官憲判的範圍內。"],["翁委員曉玲：喔，是這樣嗎？所以，對於我們之前講的實質廢死案，大法官宣告的，說只有滿足那四條，死刑才要一致決，其他的都可以不用一致決，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，其他的我們正在研議當中，如果說意旨參考，當然我們會去研議，但是這個……"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊。你們都研議了，那為什麼針對我剛剛講的，你們不一起研議呢？大法官也是一樣啊，根據大法官的意旨，未來對虛偽陳述罪要檢討修正，然後對無故缺席的處罰和對無正當理由不提供資料拒絕證言的處罰，都要一併修正，符合大法官的憲法意旨，要保障人權啊。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們覺得這個情形恐怕不太一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，到底情形哪裡不一樣？我請司法院提份報告給我，好不好？從大法官憲法判決的意旨去檢視現在所有訴訟法上有關無正當理由缺席、不提供資料、拒絕證言、虛偽陳述等等相關處罰的規定，好不好？來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣。那麻煩司法院一個月之內給我這份報告書，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝翁委員，也謝謝黃副秘書長。","接下來請賴惠員委員。賴惠員、賴惠員委員不在。","有請謝委員龍介發言。","先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行至所有發言登記委員詢答結束。","好，請謝委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}}