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\"部長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 115.851, \"end\": 116.932, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 116.932, \"end\": 117.493, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 117.493, \"end\": 117.713, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 117.713, \"end\": 118.273, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 118.273, \"end\": 118.534, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 118.534, \"end\": 118.774, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 118.774, \"end\": 119.194, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 119.194, \"end\": 119.434, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 119.434, \"end\": 119.654, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 119.654, \"end\": 120.315, \"score\": 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331.439, \"end\": 331.879, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 331.879, \"end\": 332.019, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 332.019, \"end\": 332.059, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 332.059, \"end\": 332.28, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 332.28, \"end\": 332.48, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 332.48, \"end\": 332.5, \"score\": 0.099}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,277 --> 00:00:09,179\n主席有請部長有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,366 --> 00:00:39,802\n羅委員你好部長我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖包括228對於所謂的人民的侵害但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛台灣跟建設台灣的努力\n\n3\n00:00:41,021 --> 00:01:03,608\n我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對台灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵犯,但是也不能否定掉日本在台灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過階層,不要選擇才是公道,是不是?部長你覺得?\n\n4\n00:01:05,055 --> 00:01:30,122\n當然是非常好那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降納入原住民族在清代日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域都把它包含進去請問部長你認同嗎\n\n5\n00:01:33,752 --> 00:01:54,970\n我們這次審查的法案的時間點是在威權同志這一段。部長,但是我完全認同剛剛講的那一段,原住民被破壞的。我不但認同,我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影。但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。部長,我告訴你,時間點就是個藉口。\n\n6\n00:01:55,851 --> 00:02:13,907\n部長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧\n\n7\n00:02:17,589 --> 00:02:27,024\n對阿不是他的母法因為我們還沒有通過這個法對阿促轉我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法所以我要說一句話很簡單的事情啦\n\n8\n00:02:28,452 --> 00:02:48,569\n剛剛大家問到你的所有的問題,部長你自己都認為說,你不應該做區別嘛。你任何時期,任何的執政者,今天對於台灣的功跟過,應該要具體併成。很奇怪,為什麼你今天就特別畫一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講今天法院只能討論這個?\n\n9\n00:02:50,130 --> 00:03:09,010\n誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的?法律在制定還沒立定之前不就是立法委員討論我們把涵蓋從所謂的清代到日據到所謂的這個國民黨執政甚至到現在來代代的把所謂的不義的狀況陳列出來有什麼不好呢?請問部長從34年到現在\n\n10\n00:03:13,171 --> 00:03:18,195\n我反對啦!我說過對228跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦!那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎?你沒贊成但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛!來!部長我問你好!我問你好!\n\n11\n00:03:35,322 --> 00:04:00,641\n日據時代對人權有很多的迫害嘛。你不否認嘛。完全不否認啊。謝謝你啊。而且我們拍電影啊。尤其台灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少2000人以上。那麼日軍在台灣各地營區設慰安所目前多數軍事用地。唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址只靠民間的婦員會在保存。\n\n12\n00:04:01,261 --> 00:04:29,715\n那我就問這件事情你要不要把這個所謂日據時代慰安所都列入不義遺址在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎日本時代是一個殖民時代中華民國是一個我們回到祖國你的標準真繁複啊所以在殖民時代破壞人權是沒關係到了所謂的民主到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以都不可以啦部長我再問你喔最後關於不義遺址我也必須坦白說啦\n\n13\n00:04:31,036 --> 00:05:00,676\n各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露正向讓社會繼續教訓未來避免重蹈覆轍然後如果說今天你去定義正義就會有另一方為不正義那同樣的不義遺址是主體是國家的不義跟不法但放在場域對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義變相遭受譴責建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代\n\n14\n00:05:01,016 --> 00:05:02,618\n這兩句話你認不認同?沒關係很快,一分鐘內。來,認不認同部長?我要想一想。這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的。\n\n15\n00:05:13,547 --> 00:05:32,500\n我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義不法我也反對但是你今天你知道立法院旁邊包括開南商工包括喜愛登飯宴獅子林大樓全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去你對這些私有所有權人不就監察院講的嗎對他們而言其實說真的不是很公道\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8277\t9179\t主席有請部長有請部長\n18366\t39802\t羅委員你好部長我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖包括228對於所謂的人民的侵害但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛台灣跟建設台灣的努力\n41021\t63608\t我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對台灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵犯,但是也不能否定掉日本在台灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過階層,不要選擇才是公道,是不是?部長你覺得?\n65055\t90122\t當然是非常好那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降納入原住民族在清代日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域都把它包含進去請問部長你認同嗎\n93752\t114970\t我們這次審查的法案的時間點是在威權同志這一段。部長,但是我完全認同剛剛講的那一段,原住民被破壞的。我不但認同,我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影。但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。部長,我告訴你,時間點就是個藉口。\n115851\t133907\t部長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧\n137589\t147024\t對阿不是他的母法因為我們還沒有通過這個法對阿促轉我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法所以我要說一句話很簡單的事情啦\n148452\t168569\t剛剛大家問到你的所有的問題,部長你自己都認為說,你不應該做區別嘛。你任何時期,任何的執政者,今天對於台灣的功跟過,應該要具體併成。很奇怪,為什麼你今天就特別畫一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講今天法院只能討論這個?\n170130\t189010\t誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的?法律在制定還沒立定之前不就是立法委員討論我們把涵蓋從所謂的清代到日據到所謂的這個國民黨執政甚至到現在來代代的把所謂的不義的狀況陳列出來有什麼不好呢?請問部長從34年到現在\n193171\t198195\t我反對啦!我說過對228跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦!那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎?你沒贊成但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛!來!部長我問你好!我問你好!\n215322\t240641\t日據時代對人權有很多的迫害嘛。你不否認嘛。完全不否認啊。謝謝你啊。而且我們拍電影啊。尤其台灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少2000人以上。那麼日軍在台灣各地營區設慰安所目前多數軍事用地。唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址只靠民間的婦員會在保存。\n241261\t269715\t那我就問這件事情你要不要把這個所謂日據時代慰安所都列入不義遺址在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎日本時代是一個殖民時代中華民國是一個我們回到祖國你的標準真繁複啊所以在殖民時代破壞人權是沒關係到了所謂的民主到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以都不可以啦部長我再問你喔最後關於不義遺址我也必須坦白說啦\n271036\t300676\t各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露正向讓社會繼續教訓未來避免重蹈覆轍然後如果說今天你去定義正義就會有另一方為不正義那同樣的不義遺址是主體是國家的不義跟不法但放在場域對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義變相遭受譴責建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代\n301016\t302618\t這兩句話你認不認同?沒關係很快,一分鐘內。來,認不認同部長?我要想一想。這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的。\n313547\t332500\t我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義不法我也反對但是你今天你知道立法院旁邊包括開南商工包括喜愛登飯宴獅子林大樓全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去你對這些私有所有權人不就監察院講的嗎對他們而言其實說真的不是很公道\n","txt":"主席有請部長有請部長\n羅委員你好部長我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖包括228對於所謂的人民的侵害但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛台灣跟建設台灣的努力\n我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對台灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵犯,但是也不能否定掉日本在台灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過階層,不要選擇才是公道,是不是?部長你覺得?\n當然是非常好那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降納入原住民族在清代日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域都把它包含進去請問部長你認同嗎\n我們這次審查的法案的時間點是在威權同志這一段。部長,但是我完全認同剛剛講的那一段,原住民被破壞的。我不但認同,我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影。但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。部長,我告訴你,時間點就是個藉口。\n部長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧\n對阿不是他的母法因為我們還沒有通過這個法對阿促轉我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法所以我要說一句話很簡單的事情啦\n剛剛大家問到你的所有的問題,部長你自己都認為說,你不應該做區別嘛。你任何時期,任何的執政者,今天對於台灣的功跟過,應該要具體併成。很奇怪,為什麼你今天就特別畫一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講今天法院只能討論這個?\n誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的?法律在制定還沒立定之前不就是立法委員討論我們把涵蓋從所謂的清代到日據到所謂的這個國民黨執政甚至到現在來代代的把所謂的不義的狀況陳列出來有什麼不好呢?請問部長從34年到現在\n我反對啦!我說過對228跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦!那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎?你沒贊成但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛!來!部長我問你好!我問你好!\n日據時代對人權有很多的迫害嘛。你不否認嘛。完全不否認啊。謝謝你啊。而且我們拍電影啊。尤其台灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少2000人以上。那麼日軍在台灣各地營區設慰安所目前多數軍事用地。唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址只靠民間的婦員會在保存。\n那我就問這件事情你要不要把這個所謂日據時代慰安所都列入不義遺址在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎日本時代是一個殖民時代中華民國是一個我們回到祖國你的標準真繁複啊所以在殖民時代破壞人權是沒關係到了所謂的民主到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以都不可以啦部長我再問你喔最後關於不義遺址我也必須坦白說啦\n各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露正向讓社會繼續教訓未來避免重蹈覆轍然後如果說今天你去定義正義就會有另一方為不正義那同樣的不義遺址是主體是國家的不義跟不法但放在場域對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義變相遭受譴責建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代\n這兩句話你認不認同?沒關係很快,一分鐘內。來,認不認同部長?我要想一想。這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的。\n我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義不法我也反對但是你今天你知道立法院旁邊包括開南商工包括喜愛登飯宴獅子林大樓全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去你對這些私有所有權人不就監察院講的嗎對他們而言其實說真的不是很公道\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.277 --> 00:09.179\n主席有請部長有請部長\n\n00:18.366 --> 00:39.802\n羅委員你好部長我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖包括228對於所謂的人民的侵害但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛台灣跟建設台灣的努力\n\n00:41.021 --> 01:03.608\n我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對台灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵犯,但是也不能否定掉日本在台灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過階層,不要選擇才是公道,是不是?部長你覺得?\n\n01:05.055 --> 01:30.122\n當然是非常好那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降納入原住民族在清代日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域都把它包含進去請問部長你認同嗎\n\n01:33.752 --> 01:54.970\n我們這次審查的法案的時間點是在威權同志這一段。部長,但是我完全認同剛剛講的那一段,原住民被破壞的。我不但認同,我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影。但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。部長,我告訴你,時間點就是個藉口。\n\n01:55.851 --> 02:13.907\n部長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧\n\n02:17.589 --> 02:27.024\n對阿不是他的母法因為我們還沒有通過這個法對阿促轉我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法所以我要說一句話很簡單的事情啦\n\n02:28.452 --> 02:48.569\n剛剛大家問到你的所有的問題,部長你自己都認為說,你不應該做區別嘛。你任何時期,任何的執政者,今天對於台灣的功跟過,應該要具體併成。很奇怪,為什麼你今天就特別畫一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講今天法院只能討論這個?\n\n02:50.130 --> 03:09.010\n誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的?法律在制定還沒立定之前不就是立法委員討論我們把涵蓋從所謂的清代到日據到所謂的這個國民黨執政甚至到現在來代代的把所謂的不義的狀況陳列出來有什麼不好呢?請問部長從34年到現在\n\n03:13.171 --> 03:18.195\n我反對啦!我說過對228跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦!那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎?你沒贊成但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛!來!部長我問你好!我問你好!\n\n03:35.322 --> 04:00.641\n日據時代對人權有很多的迫害嘛。你不否認嘛。完全不否認啊。謝謝你啊。而且我們拍電影啊。尤其台灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少2000人以上。那麼日軍在台灣各地營區設慰安所目前多數軍事用地。唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址只靠民間的婦員會在保存。\n\n04:01.261 --> 04:29.715\n那我就問這件事情你要不要把這個所謂日據時代慰安所都列入不義遺址在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎日本時代是一個殖民時代中華民國是一個我們回到祖國你的標準真繁複啊所以在殖民時代破壞人權是沒關係到了所謂的民主到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以都不可以啦部長我再問你喔最後關於不義遺址我也必須坦白說啦\n\n04:31.036 --> 05:00.676\n各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露正向讓社會繼續教訓未來避免重蹈覆轍然後如果說今天你去定義正義就會有另一方為不正義那同樣的不義遺址是主體是國家的不義跟不法但放在場域對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義變相遭受譴責建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代\n\n05:01.016 --> 05:02.618\n這兩句話你認不認同?沒關係很快,一分鐘內。來,認不認同部長?我要想一想。這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的。\n\n05:13.547 --> 05:32.500\n我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義不法我也反對但是你今天你知道立法院旁邊包括開南商工包括喜愛登飯宴獅子林大樓全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去你對這些私有所有權人不就監察院講的嗎對他們而言其實說真的不是很公道\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.277,"end":9.179,"text":"主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":18.366,"end":39.802,"text":"羅委員你好部長我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖包括228對於所謂的人民的侵害但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛台灣跟建設台灣的努力"},{"start":41.021,"end":63.608,"text":"我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對台灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵犯,但是也不能否定掉日本在台灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過階層,不要選擇才是公道,是不是?部長你覺得?"},{"start":65.055,"end":90.122,"text":"當然是非常好那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降納入原住民族在清代日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域都把它包含進去請問部長你認同嗎"},{"start":93.752,"end":114.97,"text":"我們這次審查的法案的時間點是在威權同志這一段。部長,但是我完全認同剛剛講的那一段,原住民被破壞的。我不但認同,我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影。但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。部長,我告訴你,時間點就是個藉口。"},{"start":115.851,"end":133.907,"text":"部長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧"},{"start":137.589,"end":147.024,"text":"對阿不是他的母法因為我們還沒有通過這個法對阿促轉我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法所以我要說一句話很簡單的事情啦"},{"start":148.452,"end":168.569,"text":"剛剛大家問到你的所有的問題,部長你自己都認為說,你不應該做區別嘛。你任何時期,任何的執政者,今天對於台灣的功跟過,應該要具體併成。很奇怪,為什麼你今天就特別畫一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講今天法院只能討論這個?"},{"start":170.13,"end":189.01,"text":"誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的?法律在制定還沒立定之前不就是立法委員討論我們把涵蓋從所謂的清代到日據到所謂的這個國民黨執政甚至到現在來代代的把所謂的不義的狀況陳列出來有什麼不好呢?請問部長從34年到現在"},{"start":193.171,"end":198.195,"text":"我反對啦!我說過對228跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦!那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎?你沒贊成但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛!來!部長我問你好!我問你好!"},{"start":215.322,"end":240.641,"text":"日據時代對人權有很多的迫害嘛。你不否認嘛。完全不否認啊。謝謝你啊。而且我們拍電影啊。尤其台灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少2000人以上。那麼日軍在台灣各地營區設慰安所目前多數軍事用地。唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址只靠民間的婦員會在保存。"},{"start":241.261,"end":269.715,"text":"那我就問這件事情你要不要把這個所謂日據時代慰安所都列入不義遺址在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎日本時代是一個殖民時代中華民國是一個我們回到祖國你的標準真繁複啊所以在殖民時代破壞人權是沒關係到了所謂的民主到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以都不可以啦部長我再問你喔最後關於不義遺址我也必須坦白說啦"},{"start":271.036,"end":300.676,"text":"各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露正向讓社會繼續教訓未來避免重蹈覆轍然後如果說今天你去定義正義就會有另一方為不正義那同樣的不義遺址是主體是國家的不義跟不法但放在場域對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義變相遭受譴責建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代"},{"start":301.016,"end":302.618,"text":"這兩句話你認不認同?沒關係很快,一分鐘內。來,認不認同部長?我要想一想。這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的。"},{"start":313.547,"end":332.5,"text":"我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義不法我也反對但是你今天你知道立法院旁邊包括開南商工包括喜愛登飯宴獅子林大樓全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去你對這些私有所有權人不就監察院講的嗎對他們而言其實說真的不是很公道"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時51分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員，你好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖、包括二二八對於人民的侵害，但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛臺灣跟建設臺灣的努力；我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對臺灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵害，但是也不能否定掉日本在臺灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過皆陳，不要選擇，才是公道！是不是？部長，你覺得。"],["李部長遠：當然是。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常好。那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則，來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本，他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降，納入原住民族在清代、日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域，都把它包含進去。請問部長，你認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：我們這次審查法案的時間點是在威權統治這一段。"],["羅委員智強：部長……"],["李部長遠：但是我完全認同剛才講的那一段原住民被迫害的，我不但認同，我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影，但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我告訴你，時間點就是個藉口！部長說，促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符，所以今天你跟我講你劃了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點，那我想請問你，不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎？促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎？"],["李部長遠：應該不是法律吧！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！不是它的母法啊！"],["李部長遠：因為我們還沒有通過這個法。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法，所以我要說一句話，很簡單的事情，剛剛大家問到你的所有問題，部長你自己都認為不應該做區別，任何時期、任何的執政者，今天對於臺灣的功跟過應該要具體併陳，很奇怪！部長，為什麼你今天就特別劃一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講今天法律只能討論這個？誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的？法律在制定還沒立定之前，不就是立法委員討論，我們涵蓋從清代到日據、到所謂的國民黨執政，甚至到現在，代代的把所謂不義的狀況陳列出來，有什麼不好呢？請問部長。"],["李部長遠：從34年到現在，我們大概戒嚴了38年，解嚴37年……"],["羅委員智強：我反對啦！我說過，我對二二八跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦！那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎？"],["李部長遠：我並沒有贊成，但是……"],["羅委員智強：你沒贊成，但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛！"],["李部長遠：因為這個法律是從中華民國來臺灣之後……"],["羅委員智強：來，部長，我問你，日據時代對人權有很多的迫害，你不否認嘛？"],["李部長遠：完全不否認啊！"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你。"],["李部長遠：而且我們還拍成電影。"],["羅委員智強：尤其臺灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少兩千人以上，日軍在臺灣各地營區設慰安所，目前多屬軍事用地，唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址，只靠民間的婦援會在保存，那我就問這件事情，你要不要把所謂日據時代慰安所都列入不義遺址？在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎？"],["李部長遠：日本時代是一個殖民時代，中華民國是一個我們回到祖國……"],["羅委員智強：哇！你的標準真繁複啊！所以在殖民時代迫害人權是沒關係，到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以？都不可以啦！部長，我再問你，最後關於不義遺址，我也必須坦白說，各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語，然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露真相，讓社會記取教訓，未來避免重蹈覆轍，如果說今天你去定義正義，就會有另一方為不正義。同樣的，不義遺址主體是國家的不義跟不法，但放在場域，對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義，變相遭受譴責，建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代，這兩句話你認不認同？沒關係，很快，1分鐘內。來，認不認同？部長。"],["李部長遠：我要想一想。"],["羅委員智強：你想一想？這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的，我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義、不法，我也反對，但是今天你知道立法院旁邊，包括開南商工、包括喜來登飯店、獅子林大樓，全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去，你對這些私有所有權人，不就監察院講的嗎？對他們而言，其實說真的，不是很公道。"],["主席：羅委員，不好意思，因為超過1分鐘了。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。"],["主席：部長後續再跟羅委員報告，或者是書面報告好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員的質詢。"],["李部長遠：謝謝你。"],["主席：部長請回。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}