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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T11:57:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T12:02:12+08:00","duration":312,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"156314","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156314","tool":"pyannote","id":"156314-pyannote"},"job_id":"vN4TX0yxhnLyc4bG","queued_at":"2024-10-30 12:30:33","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-10-30 12:31:19","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156314","target":null},{"time":"2024-10-30 12:31:20","msg":"download ivod and 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具"},"job_id":"sn3QwuE6JdaRIdFs","queued_at":"2024-10-30 12:30:34","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-10-30 12:31:41","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156314","target":null},{"time":"2024-10-30 12:31:42","msg":"already downloaded","target":"/home/conda/test/whisper-api-data/tmp/lyivod-clip-156314.wav"},{"time":"2024-10-30 12:31:42","msg":"running whisperx with  --language zh --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n二、\t審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具'","target":null},{"time":"2024-10-30 12:31:58","msg":"merging result","target":null},{"time":"2024-10-30 12:31:58","msg":"status: done","target":null}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 6.863, \"end\": 7.244, \"text\": \"有請部長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 6.863, \"end\": 7.224, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", 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00:00:55,376\n正所以所以我們必須要正視歷史這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法設定專法如此的重要在這邊先講一下這個前提那當然我還是要講一下我的版本因為想先問一下部長確實我覺得剛剛其實羅志強委員錯用了監察院的報告他裡面其實針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是說這樣就會有任何負面的效果\n\n4\n00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,424\n因為在國家如果有任何的歷史事件有不義跟不法必須要正確的指認並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤所以這一些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道在台灣這樣的土地過去就是發生過這些事情嘛\n\n5\n00:01:23,573 --> 00:01:45,366\n但是在監察院裡面報告提到的是如果有一些其他的場址不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義但是例如說它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址這些或許它並非不義場址但是它可以變成是另外一種轉型這一裡面包含的人權場址\n\n6\n00:01:46,827 --> 00:02:12,121\n或許這樣的場域我們也可以把它納進來所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充就是不只是不義遺址還有更多類型相關的只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型的這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論所以舉例來說就是在我們的草案裡面有一些是包括它是現在私人的部分\n\n7\n00:02:13,058 --> 00:02:16,979\n那針對這些私有產權的部分其實有一些產權者所有權者他們可能會認為說用一個人權長址他們願意但是如果你把它也只認為不義遺址或許他們要願意接下來被活化保存甚至去協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的所以我也是希望說接下來有機會的話名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的\n\n8\n00:02:42,364 --> 00:02:59,565\n那違人權長職的保存條例那這是我的一個建議另外這個我剛剛有提到這個空間的部分因為其實按照目前的定義它是侵害人權事件的發生地但是如果按照這個定義的話或許就無法南瓜過去廣譯\n\n9\n00:03:01,647 --> 00:03:28,275\n政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所例如所有的政治受難者的故居或者是我剛剛講的他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地這些場址我認為他也有轉型正義的價值那所以是不是請教部長對於以上這一些場域的定義的看法那是不是也有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關的場址更廣義的納進去\n\n10\n00:03:30,148 --> 00:03:55,056\n我想我們列入討論可以列入這次在法案中討論到底那個範圍可以設定多大就是除了我們講的是曾經被羈押、刑囚這些點才算是不義遺址還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方他住的家等等那這個的確是一個涉及蠻大的可以列入我們在這個法案審法案的時候一起來討論\n\n11\n00:03:55,916 --> 00:04:22,524\n好,感謝部長正面的肯定那我希望大家更廣泛的討論才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史那其實在高雄也有包括其實在白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近現在美麗島捷運站附近然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊還有原本的壽星戲院這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候如果這個專法通過了\n\n12\n00:04:24,484 --> 00:04:49,045\n過去的潛在不義遺址的這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議那最後一個小提醒就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分比較不好處理的就是他們你們也只能鼓勵他們盡量讓他們可以提供作為活化作為保存嘛那是不是應該要有一些誘因讓這些私有產權者他們也願意來做這樣的文資的保存工作以及來讓大家更正確的認識歷史呢\n\n13\n00:04:51,274 --> 00:05:09,072\n就像我們古蹟保存一樣,我們會有一些補償或什麼,我們一定要列出來。一定要他願意我們才會做。好,謝謝部長。那也希望接下來在審議的時候,這些針對是有產權者的誘因,你們的補償,這些更正向更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6863\t7244\t有請部長\n15186\t35088\t韓委員你好好李部長好其實從剛剛諸多國民黨的委員口中的論述就知道說我們要捍衛這個不義遺址保存條例的重要性因為到現在國民黨還是不願意面對過去威權時期在台灣所產生的這些不義遺址的傷害\n36929\t55376\t正所以所以我們必須要正視歷史這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法設定專法如此的重要在這邊先講一下這個前提那當然我還是要講一下我的版本因為想先問一下部長確實我覺得剛剛其實羅志強委員錯用了監察院的報告他裡面其實針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是說這樣就會有任何負面的效果\n65600\t71424\t因為在國家如果有任何的歷史事件有不義跟不法必須要正確的指認並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤所以這一些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道在台灣這樣的土地過去就是發生過這些事情嘛\n83573\t105366\t但是在監察院裡面報告提到的是如果有一些其他的場址不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義但是例如說它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址這些或許它並非不義場址但是它可以變成是另外一種轉型這一裡面包含的人權場址\n106827\t132121\t或許這樣的場域我們也可以把它納進來所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充就是不只是不義遺址還有更多類型相關的只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型的這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論所以舉例來說就是在我們的草案裡面有一些是包括它是現在私人的部分\n133058\t136979\t那針對這些私有產權的部分其實有一些產權者所有權者他們可能會認為說用一個人權長址他們願意但是如果你把它也只認為不義遺址或許他們要願意接下來被活化保存甚至去協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的所以我也是希望說接下來有機會的話名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的\n162364\t179565\t那違人權長職的保存條例那這是我的一個建議另外這個我剛剛有提到這個空間的部分因為其實按照目前的定義它是侵害人權事件的發生地但是如果按照這個定義的話或許就無法南瓜過去廣譯\n181647\t208275\t政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所例如所有的政治受難者的故居或者是我剛剛講的他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地這些場址我認為他也有轉型正義的價值那所以是不是請教部長對於以上這一些場域的定義的看法那是不是也有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關的場址更廣義的納進去\n210148\t235056\t我想我們列入討論可以列入這次在法案中討論到底那個範圍可以設定多大就是除了我們講的是曾經被羈押、刑囚這些點才算是不義遺址還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方他住的家等等那這個的確是一個涉及蠻大的可以列入我們在這個法案審法案的時候一起來討論\n235916\t262524\t好,感謝部長正面的肯定那我希望大家更廣泛的討論才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史那其實在高雄也有包括其實在白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近現在美麗島捷運站附近然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊還有原本的壽星戲院這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候如果這個專法通過了\n264484\t289045\t過去的潛在不義遺址的這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議那最後一個小提醒就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分比較不好處理的就是他們你們也只能鼓勵他們盡量讓他們可以提供作為活化作為保存嘛那是不是應該要有一些誘因讓這些私有產權者他們也願意來做這樣的文資的保存工作以及來讓大家更正確的認識歷史呢\n291274\t309072\t就像我們古蹟保存一樣,我們會有一些補償或什麼,我們一定要列出來。一定要他願意我們才會做。好,謝謝部長。那也希望接下來在審議的時候,這些針對是有產權者的誘因,你們的補償,這些更正向更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n","txt":"有請部長\n韓委員你好好李部長好其實從剛剛諸多國民黨的委員口中的論述就知道說我們要捍衛這個不義遺址保存條例的重要性因為到現在國民黨還是不願意面對過去威權時期在台灣所產生的這些不義遺址的傷害\n正所以所以我們必須要正視歷史這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法設定專法如此的重要在這邊先講一下這個前提那當然我還是要講一下我的版本因為想先問一下部長確實我覺得剛剛其實羅志強委員錯用了監察院的報告他裡面其實針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是說這樣就會有任何負面的效果\n因為在國家如果有任何的歷史事件有不義跟不法必須要正確的指認並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤所以這一些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道在台灣這樣的土地過去就是發生過這些事情嘛\n但是在監察院裡面報告提到的是如果有一些其他的場址不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義但是例如說它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址這些或許它並非不義場址但是它可以變成是另外一種轉型這一裡面包含的人權場址\n或許這樣的場域我們也可以把它納進來所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充就是不只是不義遺址還有更多類型相關的只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型的這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論所以舉例來說就是在我們的草案裡面有一些是包括它是現在私人的部分\n那針對這些私有產權的部分其實有一些產權者所有權者他們可能會認為說用一個人權長址他們願意但是如果你把它也只認為不義遺址或許他們要願意接下來被活化保存甚至去協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的所以我也是希望說接下來有機會的話名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的\n那違人權長職的保存條例那這是我的一個建議另外這個我剛剛有提到這個空間的部分因為其實按照目前的定義它是侵害人權事件的發生地但是如果按照這個定義的話或許就無法南瓜過去廣譯\n政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所例如所有的政治受難者的故居或者是我剛剛講的他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地這些場址我認為他也有轉型正義的價值那所以是不是請教部長對於以上這一些場域的定義的看法那是不是也有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關的場址更廣義的納進去\n我想我們列入討論可以列入這次在法案中討論到底那個範圍可以設定多大就是除了我們講的是曾經被羈押、刑囚這些點才算是不義遺址還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方他住的家等等那這個的確是一個涉及蠻大的可以列入我們在這個法案審法案的時候一起來討論\n好,感謝部長正面的肯定那我希望大家更廣泛的討論才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史那其實在高雄也有包括其實在白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近現在美麗島捷運站附近然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊還有原本的壽星戲院這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候如果這個專法通過了\n過去的潛在不義遺址的這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議那最後一個小提醒就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分比較不好處理的就是他們你們也只能鼓勵他們盡量讓他們可以提供作為活化作為保存嘛那是不是應該要有一些誘因讓這些私有產權者他們也願意來做這樣的文資的保存工作以及來讓大家更正確的認識歷史呢\n就像我們古蹟保存一樣,我們會有一些補償或什麼,我們一定要列出來。一定要他願意我們才會做。好,謝謝部長。那也希望接下來在審議的時候,這些針對是有產權者的誘因,你們的補償,這些更正向更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.863 --> 00:07.244\n有請部長\n\n00:15.186 --> 00:35.088\n韓委員你好好李部長好其實從剛剛諸多國民黨的委員口中的論述就知道說我們要捍衛這個不義遺址保存條例的重要性因為到現在國民黨還是不願意面對過去威權時期在台灣所產生的這些不義遺址的傷害\n\n00:36.929 --> 00:55.376\n正所以所以我們必須要正視歷史這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法設定專法如此的重要在這邊先講一下這個前提那當然我還是要講一下我的版本因為想先問一下部長確實我覺得剛剛其實羅志強委員錯用了監察院的報告他裡面其實針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是說這樣就會有任何負面的效果\n\n01:05.600 --> 01:11.424\n因為在國家如果有任何的歷史事件有不義跟不法必須要正確的指認並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤所以這一些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道在台灣這樣的土地過去就是發生過這些事情嘛\n\n01:23.573 --> 01:45.366\n但是在監察院裡面報告提到的是如果有一些其他的場址不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義但是例如說它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址這些或許它並非不義場址但是它可以變成是另外一種轉型這一裡面包含的人權場址\n\n01:46.827 --> 02:12.121\n或許這樣的場域我們也可以把它納進來所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充就是不只是不義遺址還有更多類型相關的只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型的這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論所以舉例來說就是在我們的草案裡面有一些是包括它是現在私人的部分\n\n02:13.058 --> 02:16.979\n那針對這些私有產權的部分其實有一些產權者所有權者他們可能會認為說用一個人權長址他們願意但是如果你把它也只認為不義遺址或許他們要願意接下來被活化保存甚至去協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的所以我也是希望說接下來有機會的話名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的\n\n02:42.364 --> 02:59.565\n那違人權長職的保存條例那這是我的一個建議另外這個我剛剛有提到這個空間的部分因為其實按照目前的定義它是侵害人權事件的發生地但是如果按照這個定義的話或許就無法南瓜過去廣譯\n\n03:01.647 --> 03:28.275\n政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所例如所有的政治受難者的故居或者是我剛剛講的他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地這些場址我認為他也有轉型正義的價值那所以是不是請教部長對於以上這一些場域的定義的看法那是不是也有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關的場址更廣義的納進去\n\n03:30.148 --> 03:55.056\n我想我們列入討論可以列入這次在法案中討論到底那個範圍可以設定多大就是除了我們講的是曾經被羈押、刑囚這些點才算是不義遺址還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方他住的家等等那這個的確是一個涉及蠻大的可以列入我們在這個法案審法案的時候一起來討論\n\n03:55.916 --> 04:22.524\n好,感謝部長正面的肯定那我希望大家更廣泛的討論才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史那其實在高雄也有包括其實在白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近現在美麗島捷運站附近然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊還有原本的壽星戲院這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候如果這個專法通過了\n\n04:24.484 --> 04:49.045\n過去的潛在不義遺址的這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議那最後一個小提醒就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分比較不好處理的就是他們你們也只能鼓勵他們盡量讓他們可以提供作為活化作為保存嘛那是不是應該要有一些誘因讓這些私有產權者他們也願意來做這樣的文資的保存工作以及來讓大家更正確的認識歷史呢\n\n04:51.274 --> 05:09.072\n就像我們古蹟保存一樣,我們會有一些補償或什麼,我們一定要列出來。一定要他願意我們才會做。好,謝謝部長。那也希望接下來在審議的時候,這些針對是有產權者的誘因,你們的補償,這些更正向更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.863,"end":7.244,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":15.186,"end":35.088,"text":"韓委員你好好李部長好其實從剛剛諸多國民黨的委員口中的論述就知道說我們要捍衛這個不義遺址保存條例的重要性因為到現在國民黨還是不願意面對過去威權時期在台灣所產生的這些不義遺址的傷害"},{"start":36.929,"end":55.376,"text":"正所以所以我們必須要正視歷史這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法設定專法如此的重要在這邊先講一下這個前提那當然我還是要講一下我的版本因為想先問一下部長確實我覺得剛剛其實羅志強委員錯用了監察院的報告他裡面其實針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是說這樣就會有任何負面的效果"},{"start":65.6,"end":71.424,"text":"因為在國家如果有任何的歷史事件有不義跟不法必須要正確的指認並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤所以這一些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道在台灣這樣的土地過去就是發生過這些事情嘛"},{"start":83.573,"end":105.366,"text":"但是在監察院裡面報告提到的是如果有一些其他的場址不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義但是例如說它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址這些或許它並非不義場址但是它可以變成是另外一種轉型這一裡面包含的人權場址"},{"start":106.827,"end":132.121,"text":"或許這樣的場域我們也可以把它納進來所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充就是不只是不義遺址還有更多類型相關的只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型的這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論所以舉例來說就是在我們的草案裡面有一些是包括它是現在私人的部分"},{"start":133.058,"end":136.979,"text":"那針對這些私有產權的部分其實有一些產權者所有權者他們可能會認為說用一個人權長址他們願意但是如果你把它也只認為不義遺址或許他們要願意接下來被活化保存甚至去協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的所以我也是希望說接下來有機會的話名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的"},{"start":162.364,"end":179.565,"text":"那違人權長職的保存條例那這是我的一個建議另外這個我剛剛有提到這個空間的部分因為其實按照目前的定義它是侵害人權事件的發生地但是如果按照這個定義的話或許就無法南瓜過去廣譯"},{"start":181.647,"end":208.275,"text":"政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所例如所有的政治受難者的故居或者是我剛剛講的他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地這些場址我認為他也有轉型正義的價值那所以是不是請教部長對於以上這一些場域的定義的看法那是不是也有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關的場址更廣義的納進去"},{"start":210.148,"end":235.056,"text":"我想我們列入討論可以列入這次在法案中討論到底那個範圍可以設定多大就是除了我們講的是曾經被羈押、刑囚這些點才算是不義遺址還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方他住的家等等那這個的確是一個涉及蠻大的可以列入我們在這個法案審法案的時候一起來討論"},{"start":235.916,"end":262.524,"text":"好,感謝部長正面的肯定那我希望大家更廣泛的討論才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史那其實在高雄也有包括其實在白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近現在美麗島捷運站附近然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊還有原本的壽星戲院這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候如果這個專法通過了"},{"start":264.484,"end":289.045,"text":"過去的潛在不義遺址的這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議那最後一個小提醒就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分比較不好處理的就是他們你們也只能鼓勵他們盡量讓他們可以提供作為活化作為保存嘛那是不是應該要有一些誘因讓這些私有產權者他們也願意來做這樣的文資的保存工作以及來讓大家更正確的認識歷史呢"},{"start":291.274,"end":309.072,"text":"就像我們古蹟保存一樣,我們會有一些補償或什麼,我們一定要列出來。一定要他願意我們才會做。好,謝謝部長。那也希望接下來在審議的時候,這些針對是有產權者的誘因,你們的補償,這些更正向更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":722,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時57分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：黃委員，你好。"],["黃委員捷：李部長好。其實從剛剛諸多國民黨的委員口中的論述就知道我們要捍衛這個不義遺址保存條例的重要性，因為到現在，國民黨還是不願意面對過去威權時期在臺灣所產生的這些不義遺址的傷害，所以我們必須要正視歷史，這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法、設定專法如此的重要，在這邊先講一下這個前提。","當然我還是要講一下我的版本，想先問一下部長，我覺得剛剛羅智強委員錯用了監察院的報告，其實它裡面針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是這樣就會有任何負面的效果，因為國家如果有任何歷史事件有不義跟不法，必須要正確的指認，並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤，所以這些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道，在臺灣這樣的土地，過去就是發生過這些事情嘛！但是在監察院報告裡面提到的是，如果有一些其他的場址，不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義，但是例如它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址，這些或許並非不義場址，但是它可以變成另外一種轉型正義裡面包含的人權場址，或許這樣的場域，我們也可以把它納進來，所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充，就是不只是不義遺址，還有更多類型，相關的，只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型，這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論。舉例來說，在我們的草案裡面，有一些包括現在是私人的部分，針對這些私有產權的部分，其實有一些產權者、所有權者，他們可能會認為用一個人權場址他們願意，但是如果你把它也指認為不義遺址，要他們願意接下來被活化、保存，甚至協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程，或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的。所以我也是希望接下來有機會的話，名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的納為人權場址的保存條例，這是我的一個建議。","另外，我剛剛有提到空間的部分，因為按照目前的定義，它是侵害人權事件的發生地，但是如果按照這個定義的話，或許就無法囊括過去廣義政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所，例如所有政治受難者的故居，或者是我剛剛講的，他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地，這些場址，我認為它也有轉型正義的價值。所以，是不是請教部長，對於以上這些場域定義的看法？是不是有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關場址更廣義的納進去？"],["李部長遠：我想我們列入討論，可以列入這次在法案中討論，到底那個範圍可以設定多大？就是除了我們講的曾經被羈押、刑求這些點才算是不義遺址，還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方、他住的家等等……"],["黃委員捷：他們聚集的地點，沒錯！廣泛移動的……"],["李部長遠：這個的確是涉及滿大的，可以列入我們在審法案的時候一起來討論。"],["黃委員捷：好，感謝部長正面的肯定，我希望大家更廣泛討論，才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史。其實在高雄也有包括白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期，像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近、現在美麗島捷運站附近，然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠，其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊，還有原本的壽星戲院，這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候，如果這個專法通過了，過去潛在的不義遺址這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議。","最後一個小提醒，就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分，比較不好處理的，你們也只能鼓勵他們儘量讓他們提供做為活化、做為保存，那是不是應該要有一些誘因，讓這些私有產權者也願意來做這樣的文資保存工作，以及讓大家更正確地認識歷史呢？"],["李部長遠：就像我們古蹟保存一樣，我們會有一些補償或什麼，我們一定要列出來，一定要他願意，我們才會做。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。也希望接下來在審議的時候，這些針對私有產權者的誘因、你們的補償，這些更正向、更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員。","陳亭妃、陳亭妃、陳亭妃委員。","顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員。","翁曉玲、翁曉玲、翁曉玲委員。","吳春城、吳春城、吳春城委員。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另有高金素梅、翁曉玲、吳春城三位委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}}