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00:01:42,918\n也有一班製造業還有建築營造業然後呢他是講今年10月那如果從2021到2030年他用勞發署去推估的他平均每年需求人數前五大職業勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎不知道好沒關係不知道你要看報紙報紙都替你登了你還不看\n\n5\n00:01:52,932 --> 00:02:06,657\n你們在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員、採礦、營建、製造、運輸、勞動力、個人服務工作人員等等那我同時啊為什麼要講這個講這個喔講這個的問題要先來看說奇怪了如果按照104104同時還有一份調查他這個調查是這樣子的為什麼我看一下那份資料\n\n6\n00:02:22,605 --> 00:02:40,300\n一零四人力銀行一零四玩數據他們去發現幾十萬的這個年輕人的求職裡面吶他們在這個求職裡面發現他們最想要的工作吼其實他們最想要的工作就是中時報導的這幾個這幾個行業別和職業別產業別為什麼\n\n7\n00:02:47,154 --> 00:02:47,174\n為什麼?\n\n8\n00:02:47,174 --> 00:02:48,176\n這個現象是什麼意思你可以告訴我嗎?\n\n9\n00:03:00,974 --> 00:03:28,744\n委員這個是民間的這個人力難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎?完全都不值得一看嗎?我現在在問你的是為什麼同樣是104他們根據他們求職上網百萬的求職的人去統計年輕人他們求職意願最想要從事的工作登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個\n\n10\n00:03:31,035 --> 00:03:55,635\n嗯都是低技術的這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思你可以可以假設是大概是什麼狀況嗎我想喔民間他們在調查的詢問方法你的意思是說人家他們問的有問題我現在告訴你是說因為這一類的產業你講不出來我就試著替你解讀啦我覺得你一直在規避問題說民間的調查方法有問題或是他們問的這個\n\n11\n00:04:00,879 --> 00:04:27,998\n引導性不一樣但我現在我看到的不是這樣子我看到的是這幾類的產業低技術性服務業住宿餐飲批發零售行政助理這種低技術性年輕人入這個門檻最低而且最容易入手就有工作因為他缺工缺很大馬上有工作但是因為待遇太低了所以做不久就會流動\n\n12\n00:04:30,117 --> 00:04:39,644\n看到的現象就是這樣子所以他們在這一直在缺工可是年輕人最容易上手馬上要找工作就找找這一類馬上有你懂嗎那這種問題要怎麼處理這是什麼意思部長您這個結論我也同意啊對啊你剛才講不出來啊你同一個屁啊同\n\n13\n00:04:52,037 --> 00:04:56,183\n為什麼不能講得好好的講一下呢?那我現在問你說這個現象這個問題要怎麼處理?\n\n14\n00:05:01,017 --> 00:05:24,524\n對委員這就是我剛剛也有回答前面委員的你剛剛說的整個早上我聽起來你就說你看我都撐住了我沒有繼續開放外籍移工我連警戒指標都定出來了我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪可是你還是要解決問題啊非典型工作人數逐年上升你知道去年上升到部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎非典型工作20.6萬人\n\n15\n00:05:30,424 --> 00:05:30,844\n請委員指示\n\n16\n00:05:52,509 --> 00:05:58,513\n請委員指示我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要因為呢這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人占總就業人口數3.76可是你知道2022年是多少嗎41.5萬人一年成長多少人嗎將近兩萬人為什麼大家會變成是主動的想要成為部分工時者還是被動的\n\n17\n00:06:20,529 --> 00:06:24,792\n那如果再講說現在這一些非典型就業年輕人有沒有可能我們總的勞動力退出的很多新進的已經很少了而年輕人新進到這個職場裡面他選擇的不一定是要全職工作為什麼你知道嗎\n\n18\n00:06:42,525 --> 00:07:00,386\n對阿人家還有很多選擇阿你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔歐盟來看喔零工經濟我不願意當一個全職的工作者他有可能有四種類型欸\n\n19\n00:07:01,977 --> 00:07:22,575\n第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工\n\n20\n00:07:23,596 --> 00:07:32,081\n人口數有多少?你知道嗎?占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高?你知道嗎?這對整體勞動力的影響對整體產業的影響是什麼?你知道要怎麼因應嗎?外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理\n\n21\n00:07:44,393 --> 00:08:03,009\n緊急型的、零工、經濟型的這些勞工他們是主動選擇兼職而且以這種兼職為主要收入在英國有400萬人占全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%\n\n22\n00:08:05,171 --> 00:08:06,072\n英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%\n\n23\n00:08:17,369 --> 00:08:31,173\n我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來\n\n24\n00:08:45,666 --> 00:09:04,178\n當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒\n\n25\n00:09:05,458 --> 00:09:23,310\n我沒有肯定這種現象欸但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼\n\n26\n00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:47,711\n你都沒有評估沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後你現在不提出因應的策略你在這裡只告訴大家我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞外籍移工這樣搞不搞你的眼光要看在哪裡啦\n\n27\n00:09:56,055 --> 00:10:05,942\n那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎\n\n28\n00:10:08,462 --> 00:10:25,498\n我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題\n\n29\n00:10:30,237 --> 00:10:48,669\n當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個\n\n30\n00:10:52,291 --> 00:11:01,756\n四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者\n\n31\n00:11:17,915 --> 00:11:22,636\n年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想是這樣啦我想這是整個典範轉移的問題是啊就是說我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊整個勞動部它的包括就業的新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模型形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼\n\n32\n00:11:46,690 --> 00:11:47,731\n您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?\n\n33\n00:12:06,049 --> 00:12:09,951\n還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡林老師要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣林老師要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現\n\n34\n00:12:29,441 --> 00:12:31,603\n上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說\n\n35\n00:12:47,977 --> 00:13:02,331\n對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎從yes123的求職網調查顯示有高達九成三92.6%的人表示有成為斜槓族同時有兩種職務職稱的意願\n\n36\n00:13:10,879 --> 00:13:21,708\n多於2022年的91.2%更創下6年以來的新高這是事實已經正在發生的事實\n\n37\n00:13:23,308 --> 00:13:41,119\n而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的?因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到\n\n38\n00:13:42,800 --> 00:14:05,998\n這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於\n\n39\n00:14:09,401 --> 00:14:38,233\n那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了\n\n40\n00:14:39,491 --> 00:14:55,190\n所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁\n\n41\n00:15:13,274 --> 00:15:26,283\n都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎啊部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎\n\n42\n00:15:45,185 --> 00:15:46,489\n流用就可以解決了嗎?\n\n43\n00:15:46,489 --> 00:15:46,730\n流用就可以解決了嗎?\n\n44\n00:15:52,619 --> 00:16:08,612\n我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人\n\n45\n00:16:22,603 --> 00:16:50,822\n但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主\n\n46\n00:16:52,623 --> 00:17:09,771\n人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式\n\n47\n00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:33,909\n外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進\n\n48\n00:17:41,960 --> 00:18:01,696\n我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入台灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來這裡嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?\n\n49\n00:18:12,426 --> 00:18:23,176\n開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工,難道你的移工管理政策﹑法律面﹑制度面都不用再檢討嗎?\n\n50\n00:18:26,348 --> 00:18:45,183\n我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了\n\n51\n00:18:46,684 --> 00:18:48,045\n我剛剛講說這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲\n\n52\n00:19:04,736 --> 00:19:15,524\n主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道\n\n53\n00:19:27,677 --> 00:19:29,940\n這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業\n\n54\n00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:49,432\n而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的\n\n55\n00:20:06,949 --> 00:20:15,841\n所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把女性老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任\n\n56\n00:20:24,091 --> 00:20:28,714\n我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了。您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?\n\n57\n00:20:45,305 --> 00:20:45,465\n謝謝林淑芬\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t249\t請何部長\n7270\t17778\t委員好部長我想這幾天的媒體做了很多缺工的這個專題那當然最驚悚的是說這個未來9年就是65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題但是同時也說到過去10年15到29歲投入這個勞動力市場的這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人總的來說就是年紀高的人要退出職場\n37193\t53012\t﹗\n54152\t61816\t說他有沒有再回流但是如果根據中時的這一份報導他裡面我比較感興趣的是臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業他這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的我就不說姑且不說了他是104銀行但是呢我們可以從產業別來看缺口最大的住宿餐飲服務業再來是批發零售直銷業\n83546\t102918\t也有一班製造業還有建築營造業然後呢他是講今年10月那如果從2021到2030年他用勞發署去推估的他平均每年需求人數前五大職業勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎不知道好沒關係不知道你要看報紙報紙都替你登了你還不看\n112932\t126657\t你們在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員、採礦、營建、製造、運輸、勞動力、個人服務工作人員等等那我同時啊為什麼要講這個講這個喔講這個的問題要先來看說奇怪了如果按照104104同時還有一份調查他這個調查是這樣子的為什麼我看一下那份資料\n142605\t160300\t一零四人力銀行一零四玩數據他們去發現幾十萬的這個年輕人的求職裡面吶他們在這個求職裡面發現他們最想要的工作吼其實他們最想要的工作就是中時報導的這幾個這幾個行業別和職業別產業別為什麼\n167154\t167174\t為什麼?\n167174\t168176\t這個現象是什麼意思你可以告訴我嗎?\n180974\t208744\t委員這個是民間的這個人力難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎?完全都不值得一看嗎?我現在在問你的是為什麼同樣是104他們根據他們求職上網百萬的求職的人去統計年輕人他們求職意願最想要從事的工作登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個\n211035\t235635\t嗯都是低技術的這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思你可以可以假設是大概是什麼狀況嗎我想喔民間他們在調查的詢問方法你的意思是說人家他們問的有問題我現在告訴你是說因為這一類的產業你講不出來我就試著替你解讀啦我覺得你一直在規避問題說民間的調查方法有問題或是他們問的這個\n240879\t267998\t引導性不一樣但我現在我看到的不是這樣子我看到的是這幾類的產業低技術性服務業住宿餐飲批發零售行政助理這種低技術性年輕人入這個門檻最低而且最容易入手就有工作因為他缺工缺很大馬上有工作但是因為待遇太低了所以做不久就會流動\n270117\t279644\t看到的現象就是這樣子所以他們在這一直在缺工可是年輕人最容易上手馬上要找工作就找找這一類馬上有你懂嗎那這種問題要怎麼處理這是什麼意思部長您這個結論我也同意啊對啊你剛才講不出來啊你同一個屁啊同\n292037\t296183\t為什麼不能講得好好的講一下呢?那我現在問你說這個現象這個問題要怎麼處理?\n301017\t324524\t對委員這就是我剛剛也有回答前面委員的你剛剛說的整個早上我聽起來你就說你看我都撐住了我沒有繼續開放外籍移工我連警戒指標都定出來了我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪可是你還是要解決問題啊非典型工作人數逐年上升你知道去年上升到部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎非典型工作20.6萬人\n330424\t330844\t請委員指示\n352509\t358513\t請委員指示我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要因為呢這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人占總就業人口數3.76可是你知道2022年是多少嗎41.5萬人一年成長多少人嗎將近兩萬人為什麼大家會變成是主動的想要成為部分工時者還是被動的\n380529\t384792\t那如果再講說現在這一些非典型就業年輕人有沒有可能我們總的勞動力退出的很多新進的已經很少了而年輕人新進到這個職場裡面他選擇的不一定是要全職工作為什麼你知道嗎\n402525\t420386\t對阿 人家還有很多選擇阿 你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講 那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔 歐盟來看喔 零工經濟 我不願意當一個全職的工作者 他有可能有四種類型欸\n421977\t442575\t第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工\n443596\t452081\t人口數有多少?你知道嗎?占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高?你知道嗎?這對整體勞動力的影響對整體產業的影響是什麼?你知道要怎麼因應嗎?外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理\n464393\t483009\t緊急型的、零工、經濟型的這些勞工他們是主動選擇兼職而且以這種兼職為主要收入在英國有400萬人占全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%\n485171\t486072\t英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%\n497369\t511173\t我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來\n525666\t544178\t當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒\n545458\t563310\t我沒有肯定這種現象欸但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼\n576960\t587711\t你都沒有評估沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後你現在不提出因應的策略你在這裡只告訴大家我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞外籍移工這樣搞不搞你的眼光要看在哪裡啦\n596055\t605942\t那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎\n608462\t625498\t我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題\n630237\t648669\t當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個\n652291\t661756\t四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者\n677915\t682636\t年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想是這樣啦我想這是整個典範轉移的問題是啊就是說我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊整個勞動部它的包括就業的新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模型形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼\n706690\t707731\t您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?\n726049\t729951\t還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡林老師要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣林老師要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現\n749441\t751603\t上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說\n767977\t782331\t對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎從yes123的求職網調查顯示有高達九成三92.6%的人表示有成為斜槓族同時有兩種職務職稱的意願\n790879\t801708\t多於2022年的91.2%更創下6年以來的新高這是事實已經正在發生的事實\n803308\t821119\t而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的?因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到\n822800\t845998\t這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於\n849401\t878233\t那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了\n879491\t895190\t所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁\n895811\t913114\t﹏﹏\n913274\t926283\t都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎啊部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎\n945185\t946489\t流用就可以解決了嗎?\n946489\t946730\t流用就可以解決了嗎?\n952619\t968612\t我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人\n982603\t1010822\t但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主\n1012623\t1029771\t人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式\n1039196\t1053909\t外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進\n1061960\t1081696\t我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入台灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來這裡嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?\n1092426\t1103176\t開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工,難道你的移工管理政策﹑法律面﹑制度面都不用再檢討嗎?\n1106348\t1125183\t我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了\n1126684\t1128045\t我剛剛講說這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲\n1144736\t1155524\t主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道\n1167677\t1169940\t這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業\n1185270\t1189432\t而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的\n1206949\t1215841\t所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把女性老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任\n1224091\t1228714\t我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了。您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?\n1245305\t1245465\t謝謝林淑芬\n","txt":"請何部長\n委員好部長我想這幾天的媒體做了很多缺工的這個專題那當然最驚悚的是說這個未來9年就是65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題但是同時也說到過去10年15到29歲投入這個勞動力市場的這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人總的來說就是年紀高的人要退出職場\n﹗\n說他有沒有再回流但是如果根據中時的這一份報導他裡面我比較感興趣的是臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業他這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的我就不說姑且不說了他是104銀行但是呢我們可以從產業別來看缺口最大的住宿餐飲服務業再來是批發零售直銷業\n也有一班製造業還有建築營造業然後呢他是講今年10月那如果從2021到2030年他用勞發署去推估的他平均每年需求人數前五大職業勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎不知道好沒關係不知道你要看報紙報紙都替你登了你還不看\n你們在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員、採礦、營建、製造、運輸、勞動力、個人服務工作人員等等那我同時啊為什麼要講這個講這個喔講這個的問題要先來看說奇怪了如果按照104104同時還有一份調查他這個調查是這樣子的為什麼我看一下那份資料\n一零四人力銀行一零四玩數據他們去發現幾十萬的這個年輕人的求職裡面吶他們在這個求職裡面發現他們最想要的工作吼其實他們最想要的工作就是中時報導的這幾個這幾個行業別和職業別產業別為什麼\n為什麼?\n這個現象是什麼意思你可以告訴我嗎?\n委員這個是民間的這個人力難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎?完全都不值得一看嗎?我現在在問你的是為什麼同樣是104他們根據他們求職上網百萬的求職的人去統計年輕人他們求職意願最想要從事的工作登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個\n嗯都是低技術的這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思你可以可以假設是大概是什麼狀況嗎我想喔民間他們在調查的詢問方法你的意思是說人家他們問的有問題我現在告訴你是說因為這一類的產業你講不出來我就試著替你解讀啦我覺得你一直在規避問題說民間的調查方法有問題或是他們問的這個\n引導性不一樣但我現在我看到的不是這樣子我看到的是這幾類的產業低技術性服務業住宿餐飲批發零售行政助理這種低技術性年輕人入這個門檻最低而且最容易入手就有工作因為他缺工缺很大馬上有工作但是因為待遇太低了所以做不久就會流動\n看到的現象就是這樣子所以他們在這一直在缺工可是年輕人最容易上手馬上要找工作就找找這一類馬上有你懂嗎那這種問題要怎麼處理這是什麼意思部長您這個結論我也同意啊對啊你剛才講不出來啊你同一個屁啊同\n為什麼不能講得好好的講一下呢?那我現在問你說這個現象這個問題要怎麼處理?\n對委員這就是我剛剛也有回答前面委員的你剛剛說的整個早上我聽起來你就說你看我都撐住了我沒有繼續開放外籍移工我連警戒指標都定出來了我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪可是你還是要解決問題啊非典型工作人數逐年上升你知道去年上升到部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎非典型工作20.6萬人\n請委員指示\n請委員指示我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要因為呢這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人占總就業人口數3.76可是你知道2022年是多少嗎41.5萬人一年成長多少人嗎將近兩萬人為什麼大家會變成是主動的想要成為部分工時者還是被動的\n那如果再講說現在這一些非典型就業年輕人有沒有可能我們總的勞動力退出的很多新進的已經很少了而年輕人新進到這個職場裡面他選擇的不一定是要全職工作為什麼你知道嗎\n對阿 人家還有很多選擇阿 你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講 那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔 歐盟來看喔 零工經濟 我不願意當一個全職的工作者 他有可能有四種類型欸\n第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工\n人口數有多少?你知道嗎?占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高?你知道嗎?這對整體勞動力的影響對整體產業的影響是什麼?你知道要怎麼因應嗎?外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理\n緊急型的、零工、經濟型的這些勞工他們是主動選擇兼職而且以這種兼職為主要收入在英國有400萬人占全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%\n英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%\n我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來\n當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒\n我沒有肯定這種現象欸但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼\n你都沒有評估沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後你現在不提出因應的策略你在這裡只告訴大家我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞外籍移工這樣搞不搞你的眼光要看在哪裡啦\n那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎\n我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題\n當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個\n四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者\n年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想是這樣啦我想這是整個典範轉移的問題是啊就是說我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊整個勞動部它的包括就業的新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模型形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼\n您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?\n還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡林老師要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣林老師要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現\n上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說\n對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎從yes123的求職網調查顯示有高達九成三92.6%的人表示有成為斜槓族同時有兩種職務職稱的意願\n多於2022年的91.2%更創下6年以來的新高這是事實已經正在發生的事實\n而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的?因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到\n這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於\n那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了\n所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁\n﹏﹏\n都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎啊部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎\n流用就可以解決了嗎?\n流用就可以解決了嗎?\n我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人\n但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主\n人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式\n外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進\n我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入台灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來這裡嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?\n開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工,難道你的移工管理政策﹑法律面﹑制度面都不用再檢討嗎?\n我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了\n我剛剛講說這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲\n主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道\n這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業\n而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的\n所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把女性老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任\n我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了。您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?\n謝謝林淑芬\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.249\n請何部長\n\n00:07.270 --> 00:17.778\n委員好部長我想這幾天的媒體做了很多缺工的這個專題那當然最驚悚的是說這個未來9年就是65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題但是同時也說到過去10年15到29歲投入這個勞動力市場的這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人總的來說就是年紀高的人要退出職場\n\n00:54.152 --> 01:01.816\n說他有沒有再回流但是如果根據中時的這一份報導他裡面我比較感興趣的是臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業他這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的我就不說姑且不說了他是104銀行但是呢我們可以從產業別來看缺口最大的住宿餐飲服務業再來是批發零售直銷業\n\n01:23.546 --> 01:42.918\n也有一班製造業還有建築營造業然後呢他是講今年10月那如果從2021到2030年他用勞發署去推估的他平均每年需求人數前五大職業勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎不知道好沒關係不知道你要看報紙報紙都替你登了你還不看\n\n01:52.932 --> 02:06.657\n你們在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員、採礦、營建、製造、運輸、勞動力、個人服務工作人員等等那我同時啊為什麼要講這個講這個喔講這個的問題要先來看說奇怪了如果按照104104同時還有一份調查他這個調查是這樣子的為什麼我看一下那份資料\n\n02:22.605 --> 02:40.300\n一零四人力銀行一零四玩數據他們去發現幾十萬的這個年輕人的求職裡面吶他們在這個求職裡面發現他們最想要的工作吼其實他們最想要的工作就是中時報導的這幾個這幾個行業別和職業別產業別為什麼\n\n02:47.154 --> 02:47.174\n為什麼?\n\n02:47.174 --> 02:48.176\n這個現象是什麼意思你可以告訴我嗎?\n\n03:00.974 --> 03:28.744\n委員這個是民間的這個人力難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎?完全都不值得一看嗎?我現在在問你的是為什麼同樣是104他們根據他們求職上網百萬的求職的人去統計年輕人他們求職意願最想要從事的工作登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個\n\n03:31.035 --> 03:55.635\n嗯都是低技術的這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思你可以可以假設是大概是什麼狀況嗎我想喔民間他們在調查的詢問方法你的意思是說人家他們問的有問題我現在告訴你是說因為這一類的產業你講不出來我就試著替你解讀啦我覺得你一直在規避問題說民間的調查方法有問題或是他們問的這個\n\n04:00.879 --> 04:27.998\n引導性不一樣但我現在我看到的不是這樣子我看到的是這幾類的產業低技術性服務業住宿餐飲批發零售行政助理這種低技術性年輕人入這個門檻最低而且最容易入手就有工作因為他缺工缺很大馬上有工作但是因為待遇太低了所以做不久就會流動\n\n04:30.117 --> 04:39.644\n看到的現象就是這樣子所以他們在這一直在缺工可是年輕人最容易上手馬上要找工作就找找這一類馬上有你懂嗎那這種問題要怎麼處理這是什麼意思部長您這個結論我也同意啊對啊你剛才講不出來啊你同一個屁啊同\n\n04:52.037 --> 04:56.183\n為什麼不能講得好好的講一下呢?那我現在問你說這個現象這個問題要怎麼處理?\n\n05:01.017 --> 05:24.524\n對委員這就是我剛剛也有回答前面委員的你剛剛說的整個早上我聽起來你就說你看我都撐住了我沒有繼續開放外籍移工我連警戒指標都定出來了我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪可是你還是要解決問題啊非典型工作人數逐年上升你知道去年上升到部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎非典型工作20.6萬人\n\n05:30.424 --> 05:30.844\n請委員指示\n\n05:52.509 --> 05:58.513\n請委員指示我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要因為呢這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人占總就業人口數3.76可是你知道2022年是多少嗎41.5萬人一年成長多少人嗎將近兩萬人為什麼大家會變成是主動的想要成為部分工時者還是被動的\n\n06:20.529 --> 06:24.792\n那如果再講說現在這一些非典型就業年輕人有沒有可能我們總的勞動力退出的很多新進的已經很少了而年輕人新進到這個職場裡面他選擇的不一定是要全職工作為什麼你知道嗎\n\n06:42.525 --> 07:00.386\n對阿人家還有很多選擇阿你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔歐盟來看喔零工經濟我不願意當一個全職的工作者他有可能有四種類型欸\n\n07:01.977 --> 07:22.575\n第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工\n\n07:23.596 --> 07:32.081\n人口數有多少?你知道嗎?占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高?你知道嗎?這對整體勞動力的影響對整體產業的影響是什麼?你知道要怎麼因應嗎?外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理\n\n07:44.393 --> 08:03.009\n緊急型的、零工、經濟型的這些勞工他們是主動選擇兼職而且以這種兼職為主要收入在英國有400萬人占全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%\n\n08:05.171 --> 08:06.072\n英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%\n\n08:17.369 --> 08:31.173\n我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來\n\n08:45.666 --> 09:04.178\n當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒\n\n09:05.458 --> 09:23.310\n我沒有肯定這種現象欸但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼\n\n09:36.960 --> 09:47.711\n你都沒有評估沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後你現在不提出因應的策略你在這裡只告訴大家我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞外籍移工這樣搞不搞你的眼光要看在哪裡啦\n\n09:56.055 --> 10:05.942\n那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎\n\n10:08.462 --> 10:25.498\n我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題\n\n10:30.237 --> 10:48.669\n當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個\n\n10:52.291 --> 11:01.756\n四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者\n\n11:17.915 --> 11:22.636\n年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想是這樣啦我想這是整個典範轉移的問題是啊就是說我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊整個勞動部它的包括就業的新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模型形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼\n\n11:46.690 --> 11:47.731\n您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?\n\n12:06.049 --> 12:09.951\n還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡林老師要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣林老師要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現\n\n12:29.441 --> 12:31.603\n上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說\n\n12:47.977 --> 13:02.331\n對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎從yes123的求職網調查顯示有高達九成三92.6%的人表示有成為斜槓族同時有兩種職務職稱的意願\n\n13:10.879 --> 13:21.708\n多於2022年的91.2%更創下6年以來的新高這是事實已經正在發生的事實\n\n13:23.308 --> 13:41.119\n而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的?因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到\n\n13:42.800 --> 14:05.998\n這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於\n\n14:09.401 --> 14:38.233\n那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了\n\n14:39.491 --> 14:55.190\n所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁\n\n15:13.274 --> 15:26.283\n都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎啊部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎\n\n15:45.185 --> 15:46.489\n流用就可以解決了嗎?\n\n15:46.489 --> 15:46.730\n流用就可以解決了嗎?\n\n15:52.619 --> 16:08.612\n我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人\n\n16:22.603 --> 16:50.822\n但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主\n\n16:52.623 --> 17:09.771\n人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式\n\n17:19.196 --> 17:33.909\n外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進\n\n17:41.960 --> 18:01.696\n我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入台灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來這裡嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?\n\n18:12.426 --> 18:23.176\n開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工,難道你的移工管理政策﹑法律面﹑制度面都不用再檢討嗎?\n\n18:26.348 --> 18:45.183\n我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了\n\n18:46.684 --> 18:48.045\n我剛剛講說這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲\n\n19:04.736 --> 19:15.524\n主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道\n\n19:27.677 --> 19:29.940\n這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業\n\n19:45.270 --> 19:49.432\n而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的\n\n20:06.949 --> 20:15.841\n所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把女性老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任\n\n20:24.091 --> 20:28.714\n我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了。您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?\n\n20:45.305 --> 20:45.465\n謝謝林淑芬\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.249,"text":"請何部長"},{"start":7.27,"end":17.778,"text":"委員好部長我想這幾天的媒體做了很多缺工的這個專題那當然最驚悚的是說這個未來9年就是65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題但是同時也說到過去10年15到29歲投入這個勞動力市場的這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人總的來說就是年紀高的人要退出職場"},{"start":37.193,"end":53.012,"text":"﹗"},{"start":54.152,"end":61.816,"text":"說他有沒有再回流但是如果根據中時的這一份報導他裡面我比較感興趣的是臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業他這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的我就不說姑且不說了他是104銀行但是呢我們可以從產業別來看缺口最大的住宿餐飲服務業再來是批發零售直銷業"},{"start":83.546,"end":102.918,"text":"也有一班製造業還有建築營造業然後呢他是講今年10月那如果從2021到2030年他用勞發署去推估的他平均每年需求人數前五大職業勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎不知道好沒關係不知道你要看報紙報紙都替你登了你還不看"},{"start":112.932,"end":126.657,"text":"你們在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員、採礦、營建、製造、運輸、勞動力、個人服務工作人員等等那我同時啊為什麼要講這個講這個喔講這個的問題要先來看說奇怪了如果按照104104同時還有一份調查他這個調查是這樣子的為什麼我看一下那份資料"},{"start":142.605,"end":160.3,"text":"一零四人力銀行一零四玩數據他們去發現幾十萬的這個年輕人的求職裡面吶他們在這個求職裡面發現他們最想要的工作吼其實他們最想要的工作就是中時報導的這幾個這幾個行業別和職業別產業別為什麼"},{"start":167.154,"end":167.174,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":167.174,"end":168.176,"text":"這個現象是什麼意思你可以告訴我嗎?"},{"start":180.974,"end":208.744,"text":"委員這個是民間的這個人力難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎?完全都不值得一看嗎?我現在在問你的是為什麼同樣是104他們根據他們求職上網百萬的求職的人去統計年輕人他們求職意願最想要從事的工作登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個"},{"start":211.035,"end":235.635,"text":"嗯都是低技術的這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思你可以可以假設是大概是什麼狀況嗎我想喔民間他們在調查的詢問方法你的意思是說人家他們問的有問題我現在告訴你是說因為這一類的產業你講不出來我就試著替你解讀啦我覺得你一直在規避問題說民間的調查方法有問題或是他們問的這個"},{"start":240.879,"end":267.998,"text":"引導性不一樣但我現在我看到的不是這樣子我看到的是這幾類的產業低技術性服務業住宿餐飲批發零售行政助理這種低技術性年輕人入這個門檻最低而且最容易入手就有工作因為他缺工缺很大馬上有工作但是因為待遇太低了所以做不久就會流動"},{"start":270.117,"end":279.644,"text":"看到的現象就是這樣子所以他們在這一直在缺工可是年輕人最容易上手馬上要找工作就找找這一類馬上有你懂嗎那這種問題要怎麼處理這是什麼意思部長您這個結論我也同意啊對啊你剛才講不出來啊你同一個屁啊同"},{"start":292.037,"end":296.183,"text":"為什麼不能講得好好的講一下呢?那我現在問你說這個現象這個問題要怎麼處理?"},{"start":301.017,"end":324.524,"text":"對委員這就是我剛剛也有回答前面委員的你剛剛說的整個早上我聽起來你就說你看我都撐住了我沒有繼續開放外籍移工我連警戒指標都定出來了我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪可是你還是要解決問題啊非典型工作人數逐年上升你知道去年上升到部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎非典型工作20.6萬人"},{"start":330.424,"end":330.844,"text":"請委員指示"},{"start":352.509,"end":358.513,"text":"請委員指示我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要因為呢這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人占總就業人口數3.76可是你知道2022年是多少嗎41.5萬人一年成長多少人嗎將近兩萬人為什麼大家會變成是主動的想要成為部分工時者還是被動的"},{"start":380.529,"end":384.792,"text":"那如果再講說現在這一些非典型就業年輕人有沒有可能我們總的勞動力退出的很多新進的已經很少了而年輕人新進到這個職場裡面他選擇的不一定是要全職工作為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":402.525,"end":420.386,"text":"對阿 人家還有很多選擇阿 你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講 那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔 歐盟來看喔 零工經濟 我不願意當一個全職的工作者 他有可能有四種類型欸"},{"start":421.977,"end":442.575,"text":"第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工"},{"start":443.596,"end":452.081,"text":"人口數有多少?你知道嗎?占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高?你知道嗎?這對整體勞動力的影響對整體產業的影響是什麼?你知道要怎麼因應嗎?外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理"},{"start":464.393,"end":483.009,"text":"緊急型的、零工、經濟型的這些勞工他們是主動選擇兼職而且以這種兼職為主要收入在英國有400萬人占全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%"},{"start":485.171,"end":486.072,"text":"英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%"},{"start":497.369,"end":511.173,"text":"我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來"},{"start":525.666,"end":544.178,"text":"當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒"},{"start":545.458,"end":563.31,"text":"我沒有肯定這種現象欸但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼"},{"start":576.96,"end":587.711,"text":"你都沒有評估沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後你現在不提出因應的策略你在這裡只告訴大家我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞外籍移工這樣搞不搞你的眼光要看在哪裡啦"},{"start":596.055,"end":605.942,"text":"那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":608.462,"end":625.498,"text":"我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題"},{"start":630.237,"end":648.669,"text":"當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個"},{"start":652.291,"end":661.756,"text":"四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者"},{"start":677.915,"end":682.636,"text":"年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想是這樣啦我想這是整個典範轉移的問題是啊就是說我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊整個勞動部它的包括就業的新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模型形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼"},{"start":706.69,"end":707.731,"text":"您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?"},{"start":726.049,"end":729.951,"text":"還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡林老師要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣林老師要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現"},{"start":749.441,"end":751.603,"text":"上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說"},{"start":767.977,"end":782.331,"text":"對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎從yes123的求職網調查顯示有高達九成三92.6%的人表示有成為斜槓族同時有兩種職務職稱的意願"},{"start":790.879,"end":801.708,"text":"多於2022年的91.2%更創下6年以來的新高這是事實已經正在發生的事實"},{"start":803.308,"end":821.119,"text":"而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的?因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到"},{"start":822.8,"end":845.998,"text":"這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於"},{"start":849.401,"end":878.233,"text":"那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了"},{"start":879.491,"end":895.19,"text":"所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁"},{"start":895.811,"end":913.114,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":913.274,"end":926.283,"text":"都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎啊部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎"},{"start":945.185,"end":946.489,"text":"流用就可以解決了嗎?"},{"start":946.489,"end":946.73,"text":"流用就可以解決了嗎?"},{"start":952.619,"end":968.612,"text":"我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人"},{"start":982.603,"end":1010.822,"text":"但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主"},{"start":1012.623,"end":1029.771,"text":"人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式"},{"start":1039.196,"end":1053.909,"text":"外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進"},{"start":1061.96,"end":1081.696,"text":"我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入台灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來這裡嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?"},{"start":1092.426,"end":1103.176,"text":"開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工,難道你的移工管理政策﹑法律面﹑制度面都不用再檢討嗎?"},{"start":1106.348,"end":1125.183,"text":"我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了"},{"start":1126.684,"end":1128.045,"text":"我剛剛講說這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲"},{"start":1144.736,"end":1155.524,"text":"主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":1167.677,"end":1169.94,"text":"這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業"},{"start":1185.27,"end":1189.432,"text":"而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的"},{"start":1206.949,"end":1215.841,"text":"所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把女性老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任"},{"start":1224.091,"end":1228.714,"text":"我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了。您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?"},{"start":1245.305,"end":1245.465,"text":"謝謝林淑芬"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1026,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時1分）主席、各位大家午安。是不是還是請何部長？"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我想這幾天媒體做了很多缺工的專題，當然最驚悚的是未來9年65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題，但是同時它也說到，過去10年15到29歲投入勞動力市場的，這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人。總的來說，就是年紀高的人要退出職場，當然他們還會也有一部分再重新回來，但大多數是要退出的，那再比較年輕人新投入的部分，因為少子化，勢必這個缺口會越來越擴大，這個是存在於人口結構上的問題，這個問題並不是說他有沒有再回流。","但是根據中時這一份報導，它裡面我比較感興趣的是「臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業」，這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的，我就姑且不說啦！它的資料來源是104銀行。但是我們可以從產業別來看，缺口最大的是住宿、餐飲服務業，再來是批發、零售、傳直銷業，也有一般製造業及建築營造業，然後它是講今年10月哦！如果從2021到2030年，它是用勞發署的資料去推估的，「平均每年需求人數前五大職業」，勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎？不知道，好，沒關係，不知道你也要看報紙啊！報紙都替你登了，你還不看！在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員，採礦、營建、製造及運輸勞力工，還有個人服務工作人員等等。","我為什麼要講這個？講這個問題要先來看，因為奇怪了，如果按照104，104同時還有一份調查，它的調查是這樣子的，104人力銀行的「玩數據」，他們發現幾十萬的年輕人求職裡面，其實他們最想要的工作就是中時報導的這幾個行業別和職業別、產業別，為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想……"],["林委員淑芬：年輕人最想要去做的，投履歷最多的就是這幾個產業，而這幾個產業也號稱是缺工人數最多的，為什麼？這個現象是什麼意思，你可以告訴我嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個是民間的人力公司……"],["林委員淑芬：難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎？完全都不值得一看嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：它當然可以參考，可是委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在問你的是，為什麼同樣是104，他們根據求職上網，用百萬求職的人去統計年輕人求職意願，他們最想要從事的工作，登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個？都是低技術的，這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思？你可以假設大概是什麼狀況嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想民間他們在調查的詢問方式……"],["林委員淑芬：你的意思是說他們問的方式有問題，我現在告訴你，因為這一類的產業，你講不出來，我就試著替你解讀啦！我覺得你一直在規避問題，說民間的調查方法有問題或者是他們問的引導性不一樣，但我現在看到的不是這樣子，我看到的是這幾類產業低技術性，服務業、住宿餐飲、批發零售、行政助理這種低技術性，年輕人進入的門檻最低，而且最容易入手就有工作，因為它缺工缺很大，馬上有工作，但是因為待遇太低了，所以做不久就會流動，看到的現象就是這樣子。它們一直在缺工，可是年輕人最容易上手，找工作找這一類馬上有，你懂，那這種問題要怎麼處理？這是什麼意思？部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，您這個結論我也同意啊！確實我們在……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！你剛才講不出來啊！你同意個屁！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，不要這樣……"],["林委員淑芬：剛才請你講，你為什麼不能好好地講一下呢？"],["何部長佩珊：你沒有時間給我講。"],["林委員淑芬：那我現在問你，這個現象、這個問題要怎麼處理？"],["何部長佩珊：對，委員，我剛剛也有回答前面委員的詢問……"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛說的，整個早上我聽起來，你就說你看！我都撐住了，我沒有繼續開放外籍移工，我連警戒指標都訂出來了，我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪，可是你還是要解決問題啊！非典型工作人數逐年上升，你知道去年部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎？非典型工作。"],["何部長佩珊：80.6萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：我講部分工時者。"],["何部長佩珊：非典工作者，我們現在統計有80.6萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：我在講部分工者，因為非典還包括臨時性和人力派遣，我不要講臨時性跟人力派遣，我就問你部分工時者，一個禮拜做不到30小時的人。"],["何部長佩珊：那請委員指示。"],["林委員淑芬：每一項都請委員指示，我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要，因為這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人，占總就業人口數3.76%，可是你知道2022年是多少嗎？41.5萬人。一年成長多少人？將近2萬人，大家是主動的想要成為部分工時者，還是被動的？如果再講現在這一些非典型就業，我們總的勞動力退出的很多，新進的已經很少了，而年輕人新進到職場裡面，他選擇的不一定是要全職工作耶！為什麼你知道嗎？對啊！人家還有很多選擇啊！以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講，當然是很大的選擇耶！","可是從外國來看、歐盟來看，零工經濟，我不願意當一個全職的工作者，可能有四種類型，第一種是積極型零工；第二種是臨時性勞工；第三種是勉強型零工；零工經濟還有第四種，叫財務緊張型零工，他是不得不，被迫去從事零工的，他想要做全職卻做不到。我要跟你講的是積極型零工，人口數有多少你知道嗎？占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高你知道嗎？這對整體勞動力的影響，對整體產業的影響是什麼，你知道要怎麼因應嗎？外國已經走在前面給我們看了，而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理積極型零工、零工經濟的這些勞工，他們是主動選擇兼職，而且以這種兼職為主要收入，在英國有400萬人占總體勞動力32%，我們的部分工時者只有3.76%耶！英國是32%，德國是29%，有600萬人；法國是29%，有400萬人；西班牙有26%，瑞典有33%。我是要跟你講，部分工時者占全體勞工的比例，在日本是29.93%，在英國是23.18%，在德國是22%，在荷蘭37.3%，在澳洲是25%，這個數據代表什麼意義，你可不可以在這裡告訴我？你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來？"],["何部長佩珊：當然先進國家在這部分的比例都比我們高，這是沒有錯的，可是說真的，部分工時的人數多是不是一個好的現象，這是一個值得探討的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就在問你未來會變成什麼狀況，我就要問你啊！我沒有說這是好的耶！"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有肯定這種現象耶！但我剛才就問你……"],["何部長佩珊：因為零工經濟意味著……"],["林委員淑芬：這麼多部分工時的比例，高比例，如果我們以此為鑑，未來我們應該要採取的因應政策是什麼？臺灣如果從3.76%上升到5.76%，到6.76%，這對臺灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況，影響會是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：你都沒有評估，沒有在政策上看到未來10年、20年後，你現在不提出因應的策略，你在這裡只是告訴大家我不會繼續大量開放外勞、外籍移工，這樣足夠嗎？你的眼光要看在哪裡啦？話再講回來，這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升，年輕人為什麼要這樣子？你可以告訴我嗎？我剛剛講的數據，你回答不出來從這裡看到什麼危機，產業的危機、勞動力的危機，當然對另一種產業也是一種新機，可是我從勞動力不足這個角度切入，你來告訴我要怎麼因應，會有什麼問題。"],["何部長佩珊：當然年輕人他們現在比較會往這個方向移動，這也是事實啦！所以當然我們也可以因應新興的零工經濟的勞動型態，我們必須去研擬相關因應的保護，或者是……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講，如果從43.3萬部分工時者大幅增加到60萬、70萬，零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主惡質，而是大家主動，有能力的年輕人他是主動積極型的這種零工經濟的勞工，他是自僱者不是勞工，抱歉，他可能是獨立工作者和自僱者，年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自僱者的比例大幅上升，這樣子……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想是這樣啦！這是整個典範轉移的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：是啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是，就是說……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊！"],["何部長佩珊：整個勞動部，包括就業促進的思維或者是……"],["林委員淑芬：新的經濟模式，還有新的勞動形式轉換了，那你的因應策略是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：是啦！當然我們整個就業促進的型態是不是也要因此改變，這個模式有沒有必要變更，這也是我們要去思考的，我們會來努力檢討，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：你就這樣抽象的一句話，年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理？還有，yes123求職網的大數據在那裡，剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡，你老是要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣，你老是要這麼說，人家是大數據分析耶！yes123求職網他們調查發現，上班族認為有「跨產業職場經歷」，跨產業，兩種以上產業的，他們認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%。認為擁有「跨領域技能」就會得到就業保證的有79.1%。再來，對臺灣的上班族來說，想成為主修「零工經濟學」的斜槓勞工，比例有多高你知道嗎？從yes123求職網調查顯示，有高達九成三（92.6%）的人表示，有成為「斜槓族：同時有兩種以上職務、職稱」的意願，比例多於2022年的91.2%，更創下6年以來的新高啊！這是事實，已經正在發生的事實。","為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的？因為來自歐洲國家的研究，他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度。很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊！輪班、加班的我不做啦！工作太勞累的我不做，可是你要看到，這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作，不接受長工時？因為我們擁有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人，除非你帶給我的報酬相當於我的高工時付出是有代價、有回報的，而你知道你剛剛講這麼多，你都還停留在低薪的狀況。本來勞動力的供給少於勞動力的需求，價格應該是上升的，現在如果上升不上去，我何必為了多1,000元、多2,000元，然後在那裡賣我的肝呢？所以在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時，也牽扯到低薪，低薪的正職然後長工時，加班賺那幾百元，人家不要了！","所以我們要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情，還有低薪，就是年輕人不婚不生，是少子女化的主因之一啊！而你現在假又給得少，工時又長，所以他更不願意，現在因為少子化更缺工，陷入惡性循環，很核心的業務都在你這裡，工時、假、薪資都是你主責的，我今天要講這個。然後我問你，你講得好像我不開放，即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工，就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎？部長，可以嗎？開放大量的移工，更多的人，你不要在這裡說你擋住了，你沒有擋住就可以解決這個問題嗎？留用就可以解決了嗎？部長，可以嗎？","我現在告訴你，日韓也在搶外籍移工啦！剛剛有人講日韓因應搶工大潮，日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工，日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足，修正了移民法，在當時預計5年要引進34萬人，當然現在事實上5年過去了，沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人，但是他們修了什麼？他們修了讓移工跟日本國民相同的最低工資，介於16到20萬日圓，現在可能更高了，新臺幣是4到5萬元，基本工資比我們高耶！4到5萬元，工作滿5年以後，通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權，還可以帶家人同住，還可以自由轉換雇主。","人家韓國政府也一直在修正耶！以前韓國跟我們一樣太早倚賴人力仲介，在引進的時候沒有任何的訓練，語言訓練也沒有，就直接這樣子，然後仲介不當的剝削層出不窮，所以他們在2003年修正了，他們從2003年就採取了國對國的直聘模式，外籍移工也跟韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護，而且政府直聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工費用，所以人家有動機，會往日本、韓國前進。我們移工逃跑率最高的越南，現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群，而且國際移工零付費這種狀況，我們真的會有源源不絕的外籍移工可以輸入臺灣嗎？條件一比下去，人家會優先去日本、韓國，他會優先來這裡嗎？你以為再找印度就可以源源不絕嗎？開放移工是解決的方法嗎？"],["主席：委員，時間的關係，是不是趕快做一個……"],["林委員淑芬：好，即便開放移工，難道你的移工管理政策在法律面、制度面都不用再檢討嗎？陳年的沉痾大家講了幾遍又幾遍了，都不用嗎？","最後我再講一點，我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決勞動力缺口的問題，而主計處已經做了一個統計，我剛剛講失業的41.2萬人當中，有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業，主因是待遇不符合期望，而我現在在這裡提問，25到64歲主要工作年齡的非勞動力中，仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人，你知道嗎？你說我們缺口6.6萬人，你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬，你知道嗎？主計處的統計喔！你知道幾萬嗎？部長，你知道嗎？不知道；署長，你知道嗎？不知道。這個是主計處的統計資料，你也看一看，仍有就業意願的有18.8萬人，你缺工6.6萬人，臺灣有18.8萬25到64歲的人，他還想要就業。"],["主席：委員，因為時間已經超過很多。"],["林委員淑芬：好，抱歉，那我不講了，我的意思是說，而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中，女性占了72%，她沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人，不管是老的、失能的或小的，所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下，解決女性勞參率就是要把老的跟小的、托老、托幼的、顧失能的，讓國家扛起這個責任，我們的勞動力缺口這裡可以補很多、補很大，我已經講過N次了，你們只會跟我們說不會開放大量的外籍移工進來，這是正本清源的方法嗎？問題仍然存在，綁鐵工找不到，貨運也沒有人要送，對不對？各行各業，不是只有講中高技術人才短缺，各種各行各業，因為人口結構的問題一直存在那裡，部長，你要更積極。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}}